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Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Hi folks,
Zac Leger here. A quick introduction if you do not know me: I am an uilleann piper and multi-instrumentalist based in Los Angeles and I concentrate primarily on playing Irish traditional music for a living. I have had the good fortune and blessings to work with a number of talented players in the trad world and I am incredibly thankful for all of the opportunities the music has given me. Over the years as a touring musician, many, many fans have requested a solo album. It has become my dream to finalize a recording at some point, but a lack of funds has always kept me from being able to realize that dream. However, now you can help me out! Utilizing the renowned internet-based project-funding website KickStarter, I am attempting to raise funds to finish paying for a wonderful new set of pipes being crafted for me and to finish recording my solo album. I am not particularly interested in making money off this recording, I just want to place a CD of good music in the hands of the many folks who have supported me over the years. KickStarter is extremely easy to use and you can pledge whatever amount you like. It is a wonderful website devoted to allowing patronage of the arts and other creative projects and they are partnered with Amazon.com for their payment processing, so everything is private and legit. You can check out KickStarter and my project as well as a more detailed bio about me and some links to my music and videos here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1026697017/zac-leger-solo-album
While there is no pledge too great or too small, may I suggest a minimum of $15? This will ensure that you get a copy of the CD. I am currently taking orders for up to two (2) CDs ($30 pledge). If you are interested in ordering a larger number, contact when the album is released and I will see what I have in stock. Pledges of higher amounts will receive special rewards: honorable mentions, tunes written and recorded for the donors, etc. Check out the rewards page on my project profile for details.
One other small thing: if you make a pledge, afterward, please send me a short e-mail to zaclegercdproject@gmail.com with your name, mailing address (if you want a CD) and the amount you pledged. These will kept completely confidential, they are for my records only and it allows me to keep track of where to send CDs and other rewards all in one place! Making a pledge and then dropping me a short e-mail should only take about 10 minutes out your day and I would really appreciate the support! (you can always remain anonymous as well, but it will be hard to get a CD out to you!)
In closing, thank you to all of you in advance and if you feel like passing this post on to anyone you think might enjoy my music, I would be incredibly grateful. Have a happy new year and God bless,
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Reading your blub (if I may so say-in an overwhelming 'colonial' style and a charmingly sweet pro-active way) has modesty made me feel humble, placed as I am in the position of having already p[ayed the best music of this type possibly any where in the world tonight already...
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
That's what I understood too. Fair play and best of luck - sadly, I've decided that my charity fund this year will be divided evenly between WWF donations and supporting my old friend who recently had his leg amputated, therefore I will not be contributing. But I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Hey Zac.
Good luck with your project. I'm not surprised to see an immediate blast of negativity towards your presentation, since there are numerous cynics that frequent this website. Requesting money on this website strikes me as being kind of edgy, but you have introduced a very important catalyst for dialogue on how musicians can survive in the age of free downloading.
While I won't be contributing to your fund, (due to my own personal instrument funding problem), I will speak in support of the way you have presented this concept. You have provided links for people to hear your music. I have enjoyed the music from these links. This has been a benefit. I would never have heard of you otherwise. Also, now I know about Kickstarter. This is a very interesting concept.
I wonder if the naysayers actually clicked on all of your links before they posted their reactions.
Well, I chuckled at the clever responses of the naysayers, and I was tempted to post something as clever. I held back and wrote this instead. I predict a passionate reaction to your posting. I support your use of thesession.org to promote your project. I think others will to, and probably contribute to your fund, since you've provided all the evidence to evaluate your claims.
(If you get really rich from this, let us know please.)
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
halfwaythere, I viewed all the links.
I just think that sometimes the old fashioned way is best.
My girlfriend is full time and hurting at the moment due to her fair-weather private pupils failing to make it for their lessons as a result of the weather in November and December, private lessons is about 50% of her income. She also has a studio booked for her next album but is hard pressed for the coin. I've plenty as I work overseas and my work was not affected by snow. Has she asked me for money to fund her CD? No. Fund a new instrument? No. Give her a sub so she can meet her mortgage payment for January? No. Asked her folks for a sub? No. She's tightening her belt and re-prioritising to make ends meet. Why? Because she's a professional, first rule of being a professional anything, pay your way. If you can't your just having a laugh.
Sorry Zac, a CD has to stand on it's own two feet, as do the people who make them! If you want an instrument made, be sure to have the money at hand would be my advice.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I really don't understand what people's problem is here. You all sound like freakin' right wing press. Quite a surprise from some of you who I thought were a wee bit more open-minded than the bloody Torygraph! If you can and want to support Zac, then great. If not, whatever. I don't see anything vastly different between what Zac's doing here and what PBS and NPR do in the States, with their annual funding drives begging for donations so they can continue to do what they do. Sure, PBS and NPR are big organizations that millions of people listen to, and Zac's just one guy playing a rather esoteric genre of music, but I don't see why he shouldn't give their longstanding methods a go. Also, I am sure you have no problems with other, more socially established and accepted forms of sponsorship for various activities. Thinking about it, it's not VASTLY different from seeking funding from organizations which take most of their money from donations and use them to fund artists, academics, writers, etc.
He's a fine musician and I have no doubts he will produce a fine album.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Solidamahog, just because something is "old-fashioned" and has worked for a lot of people doesn't mean it's best, or that it's going to work for everyone.
I guess you have a go at people who look for things on Freecycle as well? "If you want a coffee table, you should have to work hard to be able to *afford* that bloody coffee table!"
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Fair play to these chap for trying something new .
However I am slightly bemused as I thought making an album was relativly cheap this days ,new technology and all that stuff .
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
"Thinking about it, it's not VASTLY different from seeking funding from organizations which take most of their money from donations and use them to fund artists, academics, writers, etc."
Yes it is.
People giving money to support the arts, then the arts organisation distribute the money to those artist THEY consider deserving. That is very different to the individual artists going out and begging for money from strangers.
I've looked at the clips, the lad does have talent, and I am quite sure that if he wants it enough he will make his CD. As for his new pipes, he could do what most people would - make do with his present set until he can afford new ones. Or he might find a new set on freecycle (in your eyes is asking if anyone has an old sofa they don't want on freecycle really the same as asking people for money so that you can buy a new one?)
God knows, I spend half my life helping deserving causes, that's why I'm so poor. But when the begging bowl comes out, the shutters go up. It's not the giving that is offensive, it's the asking.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I'd much rather give money directly to an artist than have my donations distributed for me. Good luck Zac! I've naught to give after the tax man robs me but I wish you luck.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Wow, this thread is depressing. Seriously.
1) It's not as if it's the first kickstarter project to be posted on here (and the other time(s) there wasn't so much negativity)
2) I don't believe in doing really good sound for albums myself (mostly because I'm an idiot who listens to music on crap audio equipment anyway), but anyone who thinks you can get an album done on less than $1000 is completely off their rocker. $2-3000 is a more likely figure. (studio rental time, mixing and all that stuff doesn't come cheap if you want it done well). $8200
seems a bit over the top - but I suppose with a solo album you need to hire other musicians - or do all the backing yourself which makes recording all the longer - and you have to live while recording. (Also I'm aware of what people can get done in France - maybe the US is more expensive)
3) It's customary for recordings to be funded as much as possible before they are recorded. Kickstarter is only "internetizing" what bands have been doing for ages. You just promise to buy the CD beforehand - I've done it dozens of times
4) He's not asking money for nothing, he's offering you an advance opportunity to buy his CD. And thanks to kickstarter, you're not taking much of a risk, seeing as you won't pay anything unless he reaches his target.
Seriously, what the heck is wrong with you people?! Thanks TSS for keeping my faith in mustard-board-humanity to some extent...
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
FWIW, Zac, I think your budget is a bit high - not so much for what you estimate it will cost, but for the amount that can "easily" get funded on kickstarter.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Zac,
I read your post and links. I've had to buy and replace my stolen instruments over the years, in the same way as mentioned by others in reply to this post; although on humble wages, a bit of belt-tightening can achieve results.
As may be you are trying a different approach.
However may I ask, and I quote from your appeal,
"THIS PROJECT WILL ONLY BE FUNDED IF AT LEAST $8,200 IS PLEDGED BY THURSDAY FEB 10, 8:26PM EST."
what happens at 8.27pm if you don't have $8,200?
If the project fails to achieve this target will the donations be returned?
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
TSS, as I mentioned earlier in a post above I'm old school re funding ones ambitions. Old school in as much as I'm a wee bit left of centre. I believe in working hard and contributing so those less fortunate than myself can receive opportunities otherwise denied them. Or enabling activities that have no profit motive or profit earning potential but enrich our society by whatever endeavor. In all of that I'm quite open minded.
At this present time arts funding, in the UK and I'd think given the circumstances ireland as well, has just dropped off the radar, unless in with the really in crowd or a performer with the established traditional beneficiaries of arts funding, ie classical arts.
This means that many of the festivals that have popped up in recent years will no longer be happening as well as many of the venues that have been hosting the new wave of trad acts and, as a result many of those trad acts will have to stand up to be counted or find alternative employment. Musicians & venues way more than in the last 10 or 12 years will now have to make it pay to keep it going, just like the olden days.
Schools have just had or are about to have, depending the local authority, music cut from the curriculum, the degree to which again is determined by the local authorities involved. In many areas this is/will be catastrophic for traditional music opportunities in school, for many kids this is the only chance they'll get and it's either been removed or about to be so. This really galls me.
I could fill a thread of deserving causes including academic research : ) I mean no slight on Zac, I simply want to push him to help himself. I've viewed his links and listened to each of his offerings on his myspace page and I conclude that he is not without ability, and not without the means. He has been honest, but he is asking to fund a new set of pipes with monies lent to be repaid with proceeds of a CD that hasn't been made. Is that not the very economic equation that recently brought the house down?
So 10/10 for imagination. 0/10 for pragmatism, IMO.
Why not call the maker and tell him or her there will be a delay. Hire a couple of mic's a good pre amp and quality A?D converters find a nice room record the album, pay for mixing & mastering, do a run of 1000 disks, get out there and punt it. All with the existing equipment: pipes guitar zook flute mac software and other resources used to record the myspace offerings. With the proceeds buy the new pipes. It's what I'd do, but then I'm old fashioned.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Thanks, Tirno.
"People giving money to support the arts, then the arts organisation distribute the money to those artist THEY consider deserving. That is very different to the individual artists going out and begging for money from strangers."
The problem with arts organizations or other organizations who, say, fund academic research is that there is so much politicking and backbiting, not to mention most funding bodies have agendas, or particular things people on their committees want to see and promote for financial and other purposes, that oftentimes artists or researchers who have done amazing work don't get the funding. When you donate money to a funding organization, you're entrusting it to the control of a committee who may or may not share your views about who deserves grants. So whats wrong with Zac's populist approach? Why not put it directly to the contributors, who can make a decision about whether or not they as individuals like this particular artist's work, rather than organizations where you have to negotiate a morass of politics and red tape?
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
(I hadn't notice the new pipes part in Zac's blurb - I thought you guys were pulling his leg over that. In other words, he's hoping to make enough money off his solo CD to finish buying his pipes. Which is not the same thing as not making any money of it full stop. I don't think it changes anything, but I understand the reactions a bit better - although I say full points for honesty)
Brian: if the $8200 is not met, no money is taken from anyone
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
SS, it's really not about the difference between organisational and personal giving - I happened to use that example because you brought up sponsorship, which invariably happens through an organisation of some sort.
Nor is it about politics - you suggested my view was 'right-wing'. If anything it is quite the opposite. "I Want" and "give me" seem to be quite prevalent amongst public school kids, but round here people would rather starve than ask for charity. My mother's favourite saying was "I want gets a smacked bottom."
And that, I think is the crux of the matter - the difference in what I see as acceptable behaviour or not lies in who initiates the conversation:
If I come to you and say "Would you like a new set of pipes?" and you say "yes please", that is a very different conversation to you coming to me and saying "Will you buy me a new set of pipes?"
And that is how I see Zac's situation - had he put his page on Kickstarter and left it there for people actively seeking projects to fund to see, I would have absolutely no objection and would wish him luck. It's the post soliciting donations that I find objectionable. It's a matter of manners and etiquette, not politics.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
How are people who enjoy Zac's music, have been to his gigs, or *might* like his music supposed to know about it then? I had never heard of Kickstarter until now, so even if I were looking for traditional music projects to fund, I wouldn't have gone there. It's a Catch-22. You're saying it's bad manners to ask for donations, but if you don't ask, you're probably not going to get many because a lot of the people who are interested in your music won't know about your project.
Not everyone shares your Calvinist views of these things.
On the other hand, I am taking donations of regulators and any flat sets people might not want.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I don't think I'm a Calvinist
And I suspect theat deep down your own moral values are probable a bit closer to mine than you care to admit: if you need a new item, do you save up for it, or do you go round asking strangers for money?
As for the catch 22 situation, yes it is, but that's just life. If you're in desparate need, you do everything in your power to sort the situation out for yourself. If someone happens to notice your plight and help you out, regard that as good fortune. But you don't go looking for charity as an easy first option.
Regarding Kickstarter, you and I might not have known that it existed, but evidently a lot of people who want to give money to arts projects do, and if you or I were in that situation we would probably find it. Interestingly there is no mention of new pipes on his page there - the entire $8,000 is supposedly the CD costs. I'm guessing that's because the Kickstarter people don't see buying yourself a new set of pipes as an 'artistic project'.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Zac - I had the pleasure of sharing a few tunes with you in Arizona this past Fall when you were passing thru in support of John Whelan's house concert series. I will more than happy to put the word out locally for you. Best of luck and hope to see you pass through our town again someday.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
While you may or may not know Zac personally, a lot of us do and appreciate both his musical ability as well as his enormous generosity of spirit and as a teacher and are more than happy to help him out with this effort.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
The simple fact is that skreech et al are wrong to say it is bad manners and to equate it with begging / asking for money.
Whether you agree with his goal or not, whether you suspect that the brunt of the cost is going towards pipes and not a CD, and even if you think he's a horrible musician, you're simply not being intellectually honest when you equate this with begging.
He is asking for donations and giving something for it = much closer to busking! In effect, however, he is getting preorders on his CD. But at any rate he isn't doing anything that NPR and the like don't do. He isn't doing anything that is remotely unethical.
If you don't like it, don't contribute (for the record, I will not be contributing either). But don't make factually incorrect posts to try to support your own personal perspective.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I should make a kickstarter project to fund my next ski-vacation. In exchange for funding, I'll send pictures of how much fun we had.
But seriously. If you're a professional musician, making a CD isn't a lark on a ski-slope. It's a product of your art, something you have to work hard on, and produce well, in order to pay your rent.
I think people wouldn't be nearly as snarky if he hadn't added the set of pipes to the mix. Lots of us would love to have a new, expensive instrument. Not many of us would have the chutzpah to suggest that we are good enough musicians that other people might/should be happy to buy the fancy new instrument for us in exchange for a not-yet-produced CD.
In short, if he gets it funded, good for him. It means he's got the friends and fans to pull it off. On the other hand, If he doesn't get funded, then... maybe it's time to reevaluate career choices?
Kickstarter is a handy way of testing the waters before diving in... It seems a much safer way to start a recording project than ponying up $8K out of pocket without any idea how many folks would actually buy the finished product.
But, like many others, my charitable contributions are going to actual charities. There certainly are a handful of musicians out there for whom I would be (and have been) willing to pony up cash to help out on kickstarter, but I do so pretty selectively, so I'll wait to buy the CD until I've heard it.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Figured you'd speak up eventually Mr Eskin.
Evidently Zac should have no problem getting his funding if what you say is true about him having plenty of fans and supporters. Then why beg on the internet?
This plea for money so he can buy a new set of pipes and fund it with a future CD reeks of another youngster with rockstar aspirations who feels entitled to get everything he wants handed to him on a silver platter.
The whole thing makes me want to puke.
How bout the set of pipes he's already got. That's a good sounding set but no, he's wants more!
There's folks starving and losing their homes and this guy wants people to buy him a new set of pipes?
Here's some things that I believe in.
1. Do an honest days work for an honest days wage.
2. A little elbow grease with sweat and blood never hurt anyone.
3.Support yourself and don't be a mooch.
4.Always have another skill handy to fall back on so you can.support yourself.
5.There are those who truly do need charity like the severly disabled, orphaned children, the mentaly handicapped, etc.
6. It's time that youngsters who think they suffer but actually are afflicted with a severe expectation of entitlement need to learn what it's like to "WORK" for a living.
Peace
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Kickstarter seems like a great way to efficiently handle this sort of project, leveraging what the internet does best as far as communication, simple payment, public and open progress tracking, etc.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Screech, of course I wouldn't go around asking strangers for money.... Wait, except I do because I've filled out applications for funding to travel to various places for ostensibly research or conferences or to support research, which to me seems like asking for money from strangers to do something I want to do. Like I said in my previous couple posts, there doesn't seem to be any great amount of difference between that and what Zac is doing and even less difference between him and what NPR and PBS do.
Organizations, or the people on the committees who make decisions over who and who not to fund, have visions and agendas they are trying to promote and they give out grants to people whom they think fit in with their visions. You could have an awesome project and get rejected because it doesn't fit in with the organization's vision.
Nick, well said.
Gary and Screech, did you also used to walk to school in the snow, uphill both ways? Moralizing and claiming your Point of View is the only right one and using ad hominum attacks on those who might have a different perspective -- calling people mooches, entitled, etc. -- just weakens your argument. You don't know what work Zac has or hasn't done, or how hard he has or has not worked.
To be honest, if I had the musical chops to create some project that would be worth seeking any kind of funding for, thereby supporting myself (and that full set in B), I'd feckin' give it a go.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
O.K. I get the bit about paying up front for the promise of receiving a CD & chipping in any extra by those who want to support you (similar to a sliding scale donation). It's the not wanting to make money, just pay for a set of pipes that seems slightly ... disingenuous.
All I can say is, Zac you're lucky you caught me right after I was paid.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@Peace: He's not begging on the internet, he's not mooching, and he certainly doesn't seem to feel he's entitled to people's money. He's set up a project and asked for donations, and he's posted one post on a website that many people look at to let people know it exists. Your post is either really amusing or really disgusting. Thank goodness there are artists out there willing to be poor and run the risk of needing donations and financial assistance. The world would be a poorer place if nobody made art.
@Peace and Skreech: Did you both manage to read so poorly that you missed the part where he said he'd already sold his set to help finance this one (in part)?
@Ben and anyone else who's posted something similar: Why on earth do you find it disingenuous that he's using the money for pipes *and* a CD, and not just a CD? Does any musician, anywhere, price their CDs *just* to cover costs? In many ways, he's being way less disingenuous. At least we know the money is going towards music and musical instruments, not something as banal as rent, or as destructive as illegal drugs. I'm also surprised that nobody has pointed out that this is actually fairly traditional: Several irish music historians have pointed out that due to the cost of uilleann (union) pipes, harps, and other instruments in the 18th and 19 century, it was most likely that musicians were either given the instrument by a wealthy benefactor (say a landowner), or a village helped to fund the instrument and equip the musician.
Seriously, I don't get the vitriol at all here. Either support him, or don't. It's really that simple.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
"I'm also surprised that nobody has pointed out that this is actually fairly traditional: Several irish music historians have pointed out that due to the cost of uilleann (union) pipes, harps, and other instruments in the 18th and 19 century, it was most likely that musicians were either given the instrument by a wealthy benefactor (say a landowner), or a village helped to fund the instrument and equip the musician."
I was going to point that out, saying that musicians in the 18th and 19th C worked to get patronage from landowners, mainly, in order to support themselves and yes, acquire new instruments if necessary. Then I got lost in general ranting.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
To further Nick's first point, I suppose you lot also hate the idea of giving a commissions to painters and sculptors before they've created the work the commission will be for.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Emily you're really starting to sound like a lawyer with your claim about weakening arguments. How's the schooling going?
If you re-read my 6 points though I think you will find that they all make good sense and are morally and ethically very good things to live your life by.
The sixth one in particular is one that has over taken much of the youth in developed countries because many of them really don't have to work, so, their sense of work ethic is non exsitant.
You being in the younger catagory though would possibly make those things aimed at you so I can under stand how you'd get defensive. My statement is merely meant as food for thought and a direct response to how I interpret the OP, which to me really does sound like it was written by someone who feels entitled to recieve what they ask for.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Nico, I just made a contribution. I'm supporting Zac & the music I play. I'm not faulting Zac for finding a creative way to raise money. But when I do give money, to anyone, I don't see a problem in giving feedback. I'm not saying don't do it. I was careful to say I 'felt' it was *slightly* ... disingenuous. [Hoping not to make too much out of that bit] It's grand when a musician is able to support his or her music. It's grand when some of us want to be part of that community & are willing to offer support.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
From insulting someone for not working hard enough to insulting someone else for having higher education. Good job, Gary.
For what it's worth, when I re-read your six points, I find they make less sense than they did at first (which wasn't much at all anyway!) and are not morally or ethically viable ways to live ones life.
I find your statement that just because TheSilverSpear is young means that is the only reason she thinks your ageist, unfounded, and personally insulting comment is a poor thing to say, completely insulting, and a poor use of logic. I think it's time that privileged, middle-aged, white, North American males stop trying to delude themselves that they got where they are by dint of their hard work and perseverance only.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@Ben
dis·in·gen·u·ous Adjective /ˌdisinˈjenyo͞oəs/
Synonyms:
adjective: insincere, false, devious, hollow-hearted
Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does
Again, why on earth do you think it is at *all* disingenuous? Disingenuous would have been if he had left out any mention of the pipes at all, but left his goal as high as he has put it, and then used the majority of the money for the pipes instead of the CD.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Ah Nico, seems that the truth about hard work and good ethical and moral values don't mean much to you do they?
That's exactly the entitlement affliction as it is in action and you'll defend it at all cost. Trying to explain it any clearer to you will be like explaining it to a post if you don't already get it.
Well good luck to you guy's, I've got to go to work on rebuilding an old deck and it's raining out and I've got to don my rain gear so I'll get back later.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@SS:
"Screech, of course I wouldn't go around asking strangers for money.... Wait, except I do because I've filled out applications for funding to travel to various places for ostensibly research or conferences or to support research, which to me seems like asking for money from strangers to do something I want to do."
But you are filling applications to people who are OFFERING money for the sort of projects you are involved with. That is where (in my eyes at least) the difference lies.
As for 'calling people mooches', I see it more as calling a spade a spade. Asking strangers for money is begging.
I accept that Zec has every right to post here, and is doing nothing 'wrong'. But he is doing something that I find repugnant, and as such I think I have an equal right to air my view on the matter.
@nico: "Why on earth do you find it disingenuous that he's using the money for pipes *and* a CD, and not just a CD? "
Because if you ask for money for a project, people expect you to spend the money only on that project, and in a cost effective manner. If an organisation were to fund Emily to travel somewhere for her research, they might expect to be paying the train fare, or fuel costs, they wouldn't expect to be buying her a car to go in.
Same thing here. If someone says they need $8000 to make a CD, you expect that to be the cost of making the CD in a cost effective manner - if making the CD requires a set of pipe for a couple of weeks, you would expect the artist to rent a set, or us a studio who has what he needs amongst their house instruments. If he is going to be using the money to buy a set of pipes he should say that is what he is going to do with it.
I'm pretty sure that if he was honest about his intentions, his page would not be allowed on kickstarter, because their interest is in funding projects, not buying people hardware.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@screech - "if making the CD requires a set of pipe for a couple of weeks, you would expect the artist to rent a set, or us a studio who has what he needs amongst their house instruments"
OK, I really can't answer this, has anyone <ever> seen a "house set of Uilleann pipes" in a studio. I'm curious.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Peace,
You appear to be suggesting that music isn't work. If that's indeed the case, then all the professional musicians (many of whom are among our favorites) in the world are no less wicked than Zac here.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I too am a working musician whose musician income doesn't pay the bills, so I have many other skills with which I make a living by. I work 3 different jobs to support my life as a musician.
Hard work and solid work ethic has enabled me to purchase 2 wonderful sets of pipes.
Like I said before "A little elbow grease with some sweat and blood never hurt anyone" . Yes, playing music is hard work, but, you better have another skill to fall back on because it won't always pay the bills.
Standing here in my rain gear, gotta go work ot the old deck, See Ya.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I reread the OP, several times, & I do not consider it disingenuous. The funds are being used to finish paying for the new set of pipes & the production of the CD.
If I was being skeptical at first I actually consider it a healthy trait. In fairness to Zac Leger it is impossible for me to know what his expenses will be. For his sake I hope they aren't more than he raises.*
I'm usually willing to consider & reconsider my comments & opinions to a fault.
* it's been known to happen. I'm thinking of creative people I have known in similar situations.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@Gallowglass: Most, but not all. Particularly it seems among the Uilleann pipes/Anglo concertina enthusiast crowd. Met a lot of engineers, physicians, other professionals who play that have plenty of discretionary money to help out on projects like this if invited. Plus, particularly at the basic level of funding, you're getting a copy of the CD, which knowing Zac, should be quite enjoyable.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I wonder if Gary read any of my posts or Nico's?
Do you seriously think that if everyone on the entire planet from the beginning of civilization as we know it in ancient Mesopotamia to January 2011 had to engage in back breaking physical labour from sunrise to sunset every day of their lives until they became too decrepit to do it, we would have as much great art, music, and literature as we do?
Arts patronage has a very long history. Get over it.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Emily, don't forget that this music we play is the music of farmers, brick masons, carpenters, day laborers, tinkers, sheepherders and all the common hard working folk. Yes it is the music of folks who broke their backs every day. Then, when the days work was done, they came home and played music!
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Good grief Skreech,
The idea of a "house set of pipes" is ridiculous.
Asking for money without offering anything in return is "begging", but that's not what Zac is doing. He's offering a pile of stuff (CDs, honorable mentions, personal tunes) in exchange for donations.
Something about his request clearly rubs you the wrong way, but I really don't understand where you come off saying he's being dishonest. He talks about the pipes quite directly on the kickstarter page, when he says: "the money that I make from this KickStarter project will go directly into funding the album and finishing off what I owe on the pipes."
Sounds like he puts it right out there. Now what's he being dishonest about, again?
That said, after reading the kickstarter guidelines, it seems like adding the pipes to the mix is a grey area. They do say "No Charity" (giving "buy Jenny a Prom Dress" as the example), but they don't really suggest that "I'll need to buy a printing press" is an unacceptable expense for a printing project. I have to assume that they don't feel terribly strongly about it. I would have to assume that "Pay off my credit card debt and make a CD" would be an unacceptable project description.
But then again, if it's really unacceptable, it's up to Kickstarter to cancel it, not you. Though you're welcome to email them and complain... and we'll see what happens.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Gary, sure, some of them were, but by your logic, if a doctor wanted to play this music, would it not be "his" music? In any case, the music wasn't always the provenance of the labouring classes in all cases, although it's got this idealized utopian peasantry thing attacked to it now. People were employed as musicians and given money to do things like write tunes for their patrons.
In any case, I wasn't talking *just* about traditional music, but about art, music, and literature on a wider scale.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
"Emily, don't forget that this music we play is the music of farmers, brick masons, carpenters, day laborers, tinkers, sheepherders and all the common hard working folk. Yes it is the music of folks who broke their backs every day. Then, when the days work was done, they came home and played music!"
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Gary, you should read a little. You might start with O'Neill's Irish Musicians and Minstrels. Your overly romanticized (and quite false) view of things needs some correcting. The majority of the pipers listed in that book from the 1700s and 1800s were either fairly independently wealthy, wealthy farmers (which often amounted to the same thing), or had wealthy patrons (who, gasp, *gave* them money and instruments!). The majority of the good musicians, the ones people learned from and that were desired, were not labourers. Labourers couldn't afford pipes, nor would they have had the leisure time to learn to play them properly.
For the record, attacking me, instead of my message, does you no good at all. This: "Ah Nico, seems that the truth about hard work and good ethical and moral values don't mean much to you do they?" is not engaging in a discussion, and shows you know nothing about that which you are speaking.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Emily,
Whew, here's the point, I'll try to be very clear.
When somone works hard for what they have without depending on others to coddle them, it develops a sense of acomplishment that builds charachter in a person.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
OMG are you telling me we're playing the music of the #$&#***middle class! What's next? You gonna tell me Seamus Ennis was a file clerk or that Matt Malloy was a mailman! Right....
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I admire Zac for how he's going about this. We all get to take some sense of ownership of his CD, and I'm sure he'll deliver an even more amazing recording as a result of knowing that his friends, family, and the Irish music community made it possible. By bringing in the community the task is bigger than just Zac.
Good works deserve support. I recently worked with Patrick Cassidy on the music for the upcoming motion picture "Kill the Irishman". Hundreds of people either volunteered or worked at substantially less than normal rates to make this movie and tell this story.
Good music, good art, good story telling all deserve to be supported, a civil society isn't just about what one can accomplish solely on one's own. Knowing when to ask for assistance to achieve something bigger than what one can do one's own is I think a noble act.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
"When someone works hard for what they have without depending on others to coddle them, it develops a sense of accomplishment that builds character in a person."
Look dude - if you don't want to buy the kid's album then don't. He wasn't asking to be coddled.
"Peace" my arse - your name should be Condescending Brawler
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I did, and there are flaws with all of them. Logical flaws and inherent assumptions that are flawed.
"When somone works hard for what they have without depending on others to coddle them, it develops a sense of acomplishment that builds charachter in a person. "
This sentence is not only logically flawed, but inherent in it is the assumption that one can determine both what exactly it means to have "others coddle them", but also that they have not been coddled. You as a North-American, middle-aged, white, male, have a level of privilege that others who do not share your qualities do not have. Your statements are based on this, and it means they will always be inherently flawed. As you noted, I "attacked" your six points. You attacked me and Emily. Stop doing this. Discuss the points.
BTW, your statement regarding travellers' piping quality is an opinion. And as you recognize, only some of the piping comes from them, anyway. It does nothing to bolster your argument that this music is the music of labourers who broke their back all day, and by the way you worded your post, it can only be taken to mean you think it is the music *only* or at least *primarily* of them. This is false, as even a cursory study of the history of the piping and harp playing traditional will bear out.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Why are you all ripping Zac a new one when Matt and Shannon Heaton posted here using Kickstart to do an album and nobody had a negative word? I guess you all don't realize that Zac is every bit as talented as the Heatons. He just got back from touring with John Whelan.
I'm in for an album, since I'd buy one anyway. It doesn't matter much to me whether I pay a little in advance.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Funnily enough it's not uncommon practice now with some big name (or formerly big name) rock bands to ask for pre-orders to pay for recording. Especially among semi-retired bands who have gone back out touring as a result of collapsed sales due to piracy. It is getting more and more difficult to justify recordings other than for promotion when people just help themselves for free.
I'd imagine it'll be more difficult with a relatively unknown artist but nothing ventured nothing gained. To be honest, I would say it was a mistake to bring the pipes payment into it. There are literally thousands of very talented young players who could make a great album but everyone faces the same financial hurdles if you dedicate all your time to the music, unless you have some sort of sugar daddy. I would be surprised if the appeal works but good luck with it and don't let the negative comments worry you.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Like Elaine and others, I don't understand the amount of vitriol directed at this post and this piper. It seems a pretty simple proposition to me. Plenty of folksingers put out records by borrowing a few thousand dollars from an "angel" - usually a well-heeled fan - because most working musicians don't make the kind of money that allows them to amass enough money to produce CDs at the level they need to be working at.
This kickstart idea allows the artist to approach fans directly, eliminating or reducing the need for the "angel". Rather than owing a large sum of money to one person, the artist ends up with a good number of CDs in circulation from day one, which is very good for business. If it works, it means more artists put out more records - I think this is a good thing, because some of those records (not all) will be good ones. If it doesn't work, not much changes, so there's no reason not to give it a go.
As for the idea of buying a set of pipes, as long as he's telling you what you're investing in, you can decide whether or not you want to buy in. When Tracy Grammer's fiddle gave up the ghost, fans put up the money that replaced it, because they wanted to hear her play on a good instrument. If Leger's fans feel this is worth putting up a few bones for, he'll get his pipes. If not, he won't. Either way, this will have no effect on anyone's fortunes but his, so I don't see what's to get worked up about.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@bogman:
this really isn't an advance sales situation we are talking about. If Zac had come in here saying "I'm making a new CD does anyone want to buy an advance copy for the normal retail price?" That would be advance sales, and not a problem, he would be asking for fair exchange, not charity That. But what he's actually asking for in his post are donations (of more than the retail value of the CD) towards his new pipes, and in exchange he will give you a copy of his CD, much as a charity gives you a sticker for your lapel when you make a donation. When you donate to charity you are giving away money, not buying a lapel sticker.
Jon:
"As for the idea of buying a set of pipes, as long as he's telling you what you're investing in, you can decide whether or not you want to buy in"
The issue there is that although he has been open with us here, on his Kickstarter page he makes it appear that all the money will be spent on producing the CD. If you are using other people's money you have to be absolutely open and transparent. Buying capital equipment isn't a normal part of CD production, so if that is where a major part of the money is to go, he should be telling potential donors.
Tracy Grammer's fiddle - I'm not familiar with what happened. Did the fans organise amongst themselves, or send her money unsolicited when they heard her story? Or did she go round her fans asking them for money? Because it's the asking that people here object to. Zac is obviously very talented, and I certainly hope he gets the money for his pipes, but wouldn't it be a whole lot better (for his own self esteem as much as anything else) if he could do it without coming cap-in-hand to us - begging money from strangers?
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Matt & Shannon Heaton's Kickstarter project, the webpage, is an excellent model for anyone wishing to raise funding. It was done with a great deal of consideration as to how every dollar was to be spent. There is no doubt about their talent musically & their professionalism in writing the Kickstarter information.
I'm hoping this is not viewed as a rant. It's just that I know so many musicians & artists who do need money & I think it worth seeing how the challenge can be met.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
"The issue there is that although he has been open with us here, on his Kickstarter page he makes it appear that all the money will be spent on producing the CD."
Not even remotely. Read the kickstarter page again, especially the part where it says:
"So the money that I make from this KickStarter project will go directly into funding the album and finishing off what I owe on the pipes."
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Skreech - I don't know if this is a new addition, but when I looked at the Kickstarter page, the new pipes are mentioned in the first paragraph.
As for the "begging" and the "charity", it just doesn't look a lot like either of those to me. The first option is just telling his fans to put their money where their mouth is. The $250 option - well, there are some people out there (at least one, it seems) who think that $250 is a cheap buy-in to be a patron of the arts. If that's worth $250 to them, isn't that commerce? There's something that only Zac Leger has, that someone wants to buy. Huzzah for capitalism.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Here's a pledge challenge. Zac, if you respond on this thread with an itemized listing of your expenses I will double my initial contribution (3 x's total). I will also email for pledges of support on your KickStarter project to everyone I know who listens to Irish traditional music.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Hi folks,
Zac here. Wow! I never expected such a huge and varied response! I will just comment on a couple of issues raised. One thing I noticed was how quickly many folks raised an objection about me "begging" for money without apparently having read the post. First off, I am not looking to make money off this CD. I suspect most of the first run of this album will go right into the hands fans who have already paid for it. Rather, I have had a hugely consistent demand for an album of my music and this project is way to put a CD in the hands of the many fans and friends that have requested one over the years, and as a thanks for the many, many kindnesses and help I have received in my journey through the music. Everyone who contributes at least $15 to the project gets a CD. Everyone. And higher pledges will receive other rewards based on the amount donated. You actually cannot use Kickstarter unless you offer a reward system. Kickstarter is designed to be a way for patrons to support artists (people who typically do not have much money, and despite how hard I work I am very typical!). Indeed, it reminds me much of past centuries in Ireland when musicians had patrons who helped them along in their artistic ventures. You are not only paying for and pre-ordering your own copy of the CD, you are actually directly involved in helping fund the recording process! Personally, I think that is neat. It speaks of a communal effort that is largely lacking in the modern music industry. If you take a look at Kickstarter.com you will see a whole host of wonderful projects from albums to independent films to books in need of a publisher. One young film maker used the money he made with Kickstarter to make his documentary about the uilleann pipes! Now, to clarify on another sentiment that seemed pretty common in this thread: I work! I play this music professionally and have for many years. I tour hard, teach and do studio work when I can and have held many different non-musical jobs as well to make ends meet. When the weather permits, I go out and busk. However, after bills and rent, savings can only go so far. I had the option to finance some decent instruments so I could continue working, buy some recording equipment or record an album. I couldn't do all three. I choose the instruments so that I could continue working. This album is both my dream and also a product that a lot of people have asked for and I feel this is a great way to provide it. As far as the pipes go: well, first and foremost I am a piper. I need a set in order to play. My old set was sold to fund the new one, indeed I have sold every instrument or worthwhile item I could spare to put toward them(and I have paid off much of the new set). However, there is no album without a set of pipes and I cannot play any of the gigs I have coming up later in the year without them, either. Maybe it would have been better not to mention the pipes at all, but as I am asking fans to trust me with an investment, I felt I should be honest. The pipes are part of the cost of finishing the recording. Would you have objected the same if I had said part of the cost was for mics and pre-amps? It al comes down to having the equipment. And, just speaking for myself, I have had the chance to pass along or help purchase instruments in the past for up and coming players. It is an amazing feeling to hear someone playing wonderful music on an instrument that you helped provide. In nearly every way, you are actively contributing to this process when you pledge.
I also picked the budget based on very careful estimates of cost for the CD. Yes, making an album is much cheaper than it used to be, but it still costs, especially if you don't have your own studio. Ten years of session work on other peoples' albums has shown me that. I am guessing I will still end up paying for about half the album out of my pocket directly. Whatever I make from Kickstarter will be the boost that helps get me to the finish line - and a finished CD into your hands. I believe I have enough fans and friends in the trad community that we can get this album off and running. And remember, I am not asking for much. If enough folks simply invested $15 towards their copy of the album, the quota would be met in no time (and any money I do make from the CD will likely go right back into providing more music for fans on another album). If you are not interested, I understand. But my reason for posting something I knew would be a bit controversial here was simply to spread the word as much as I can. If you like my music and want a CD of it, this is the best way I could come up with for the foreseeable future. Hope that clears a few things up. For those of you that have already pledged and spread the word, I cannot tell you how much it means to me! I will be sending out updates to my patrons as things progress.
Oh, and to answer one of the big questions: if the project does not meet quota by the end of the mandated time period, it doesn't go through. No one's cards will charged, no bank accounts are in danger, I promise!
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Since Ben had requested them, here are a few figures and my thought process in terms of recording this album:
First off, KickStarter and Amazon.com (Amazon processes and handles all of the payments) both take 5%. So that is 10% right off the top. Assuming I make just the quota, that is over $800 right there.
Secondly, I have to pay both the sound engineer and the studio musicians I hire and pay them fairly. I have made a lot of good engineer friends who are willing to give me deals or pay back favors so that will help. Even so, it takes hours of recording, mixing and mastering to finish a CD. Low end of most studio engineers is $35 to $50 an hour and I suspect the mastering alone will be in the $400 to $600 range. My estimates are going to be on this costing around 2 grand if not much more.
Next, I have to pay my fellow musicians. Standard pro level pay is $100 a track, minimum. A lot of these folks are friends and might do it for free, but they deserve to be compensated. And when I say track, I really do mean "per track". In other words, if one musician lays down two fiddle tracks and a bass track one selection of tunes, that is $300 dollars. That is industry standard. I have spent years working out carefully the artists I feel are right for this project and have shaved costs from as many places as I can. Still, my estimate for musicians is at almost exactly $2000. Their contributions and talents will be worthwhile to the sound and texture of the album.
So, now we are up to $4000 at least, if not more. Possibly $5000 if we are being realistic. So that is recording out of the way. What comes next? Well, replicating a decent low-end stock run of CDs is usually at 1000 CDs (most of which will go instantly to folks that have already paid for them). I don't want to get less for fear that I may not have enough to go around (the next smallest run is usually 500 albums). If I can afford a run of more, I may do so. A run of 1000, with shipping taken into account is about $1500 when all is said in done. We haven't even covered CD artwork (which will be minimal for this album to save costs but probably still in the hundreds for the help of a good graphic designer) or the CD liner notes (in which I would like to include comprehensive notes about the tunes and compositions as well as grateful thanks to many people who helped make the album possible; this all costs extra). We haven't even discussed the pipes, which I still owe several grand on. However, I will quickly replace any money spent on the pipes from gigs this spring - gigs I cannot play without the pipes and that is one reason I mentioned them as being one of my expenses. My deadline for delivery of the pipes so I can work and record is quickly looming.
These are very economical estimates. Even allowing for a small amount of buffer/emergency money, what I make from KickStarter will not pay for the entire album. Probably far from it. It will however allow me to afford to make the album along with much of the money I earn this year. I CAN promise that the money made from KickStarter (your contributions) will not go into any project of any kind other than this album. It is going into a special savings fund and staying there until amounts are needed for the recording. I am hoping to begin sometime this summer in between tour commitments and hopefully (fingers crossed) have an album out by the end of the year.
Ben, I hope that covers most of the major questions about how the money will be made and where it will go. There are certain small factors that I have not completely locked in this early in the game, but I think that accounts for most if not all of the budget. KickStarter suggest going for the bare minimum needed to fund a project and that is what I have tried to do.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Oh, and Ben (and others), regardless of how much you decide to pledge in the end, your contribution of any amount and faith in the project and me mean a lot. Thanks again to everyone that has helped so far. The friendships I make in this music are a huge part of why I do it, and I am incredibly grateful for the opportunities I have been given to play this music and know such wonderful folks. Many blessings,
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Zac Leger, thank you for the response! It means the world to me. I love uilleann pipes & hope all goes well with your new set. I'll do my best to motivate my mates to help support the kickstarter project.
Cheers!
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Aggghhhh, you nay sayer people drive me nuts!!!!!
To everyone else, you people rock, and help preserve the beautiful tradition and community that this music lends itself to.
Anyways, just a couple figures for people that think $8200 is a bit high...
A friend of mine, recorded a demo of 3 songs... she had a friend who produced it for FREE, and he also laid down all the tracks (Violin, bass, guitar, drums..) for FREE, and she still had to pay $3500 just for the studio time and engineer. It took a week.
$3500.. for 3 songs... and that's without having to pay extra for musicians or a producer. add the "standard" $100 a track that she would have had to pay for musicians, that's around $1200 extra total, if you add all the instrumental tracks together.
Sooo... that would have come to $4700 for 3 songs.. about $1565 per tracks.
Multiply that by the 12 tracks Zac will most likely have on his cd... That comes to $18,780.00
This is REAL world stuff, if you don't have your own home studio and are not your own studio engineer.
Zac however, is being as conservative as he can be, and trimming costs however possible. I think you guys who are giving him crap and nitpicking every little thing are just complete a-holes.
Zac is honest, generous, hard working, and it really doesn't frackin matter if he is setting a goal of $8,000 or $800,000... You're still getting your dang CD!!! This is for HIS FANS, FRIENDS, AND PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SUPPORT ART AND MUSIC... if you are NOT one of those people, then click your little back arrow, and go on with your arguing on some other thread!!!
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Zac, now that the heat has died down a bit, can we try to get something positive out of all this?
First of all, now that you have clarified the situation regarding the pipes on your Kickstarter page, I have absolutely nothing against that at all, and I don't think anyone else would object to you raising funds in that way.
But when it comes to your post here on thesession.org, I don't know if you watched the thread unfold or not, but if you did, you might have noticed that most of the negative comments came during UK daylight hours, and mostly positive support for you during US daylight. The plain fact is (I think) that attitudes to these things tend to be a bit different on either side of the Atlantic. Here in Britain (as you can see from this thread) a lot of people find it distasteful to see someone asking for money for their own benefit. Maybe it's not entirely logical, but it is how we are brought up.
The illogical bit is that we are usually quite happy to accept people asking for money on someone elses behalf. So if the initial post had been made by someone else - "There's this talented piper I know, who really needs a new set, can you help...." I'm sure there would have been no negative reaction (certainly not from me).
Several people in this thread have queried the difference in reaction to your own and Matt Heaton's Kickstarter requests. Part of that may lie in the level of humility in Matt's request, but I think the real answer lies in the fact that in his post he did not make a direct appeal for money, just asked anyone interested to visit his Kickstarter page. In that way those that aren't interested aren't faced with a direct request for money they don't want to give. That may not seem logical to you, but people feel uncomfortable if they don't respond to a request, so they don't like being put in that position. It's just the way we are brought up.
Anyway, I like to think this might help you next time round, but hopefully the CD will work out , and you won't need to use Kickstarter again.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Mark - even if the album is successful, it's likely that the next album will need to be funded by some means, so your advice will likely be useful to Mr. Leger in the future.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
You're probably right, but we can always hope that he makes enough off the first to fund the second, or that a label picks him up and gives him an advance... Pah! I'm living in the past.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Yes, you are. Nice place to visit, though.
I don't know that there's a lot of advances being offered these days. I think it would be possible to record this record for a lot less than $8000, but it sounds like he wants a lot of production, which costs money. For a first, "solo" record, I would say you could borrow some decent recording gear and get someone to help you with mic placement, then spend a week playing tunes. Pick three albums' worth of the best material, archive the rest of the raw material, and put together two good albums from what you've selected. Master them both, press one, and hang on to the second for next year. Bam, two solo albums. You've still got mastering and pressing and artwork to pay for, but you've cut it back to about half the cost.
But if you're not actually looking for a solo album, then yeah, you do need to pay musicians and an engineer.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Guys, thanks again for all of the comments. For Skreech and Jon especially,
Skreech, as far as the pipes go, I have not changed anything on my KickStarter page since the very beginning. The pipes were always mentioned as part of what I was funding. However, as I have said, any money used toward the set will be made back pretty quickly.
I appreciate your comments and I certainly understand where you are coming from. I would also add that many of the US musicians on those board know me personally. Many of the UK musicians may not and I understand that that can certainly make a difference in how you view such a request. I still feel there is a bit of a disconnect in the sense that I really do not feel that I am asking folks to give me money for nothing. Everyone who contributes gets a product, whether it is a CD or added rewards at a higher level of pledging. The only difference between doing it this way and the way some other musicians go about it is that I am using the upfront money for CDs to fund the actual recording and due to that, I will likely make no money whatsoever off of the recording myself (and whatever I may make will probably go into a fund for the next album or to buy the Ramen noodles that I live off of most of the time;). In return a lot of people will get the CD they have asking about for years. If I get anything out of it, it will likely be enough CDs to send out in order to get a few reviews or radio airplay. If folks wish to contribute more than just the cost of a CD I am grateful, but I am not forcing anyone to do so. Matt and Shannon are great players and great folks. I had not realized they had used KickStarter to fund their project and perhaps if I had that would have formed a good template for how I presented my own project. And perhaps it might have been less controversial if someone else had posted about my project here (or if I had asked someone to do so). But that would have felt disingenuous to me. It is my project and my reputation and I feel that it is my responsibility to let people know exactly where their money would be going and what I would do with it and what they would get for their contribution. This is not the only such message board that I have posted to/will post to and the only reason I am doing so is to spread the word. No one has to visit my Kickstarter page or make a pledge. It is entirely up to them.
I expected not everyone would agree with my methods (it is thesession.org) but I think it achieved what I intended which was publicity, plain and simple. I will consider your advice on the actual presentation of the project as I make future posts and I may incorporate some of those suggestions into how I present in the future.
Jon, you are absolutely right. A truly "solo" album could be done a bit cheaper in many respects and I play enough instruments that I could easily do an album entirely on my own. However, I feel that nothing in this music should or can be done in a vacuum. This is a music about people and about playing together in the end. I am looking for a distinct balance between what I can do on my own and the difference it makes to have other players adding their own unique textures and ideas. I am also trying to carefully walk the line between "Hey, look what I can do! I can play all these instruments!" and the more tasteful (to me) "Hey! Listen to this great music!". As such, I have spent the last ten years developing this album, mapping out arrangements and pinning down exactly who would do what, and I think the choices I am making in adding certain players here and there will make a recording of much higher quality than if I were to try and do everything myself. I think those choices will reflect in the concept and feel of this album. Perhaps I may not get a chance to do another solo album for some time (or ever). If that is the case, than I want this release to be as good as I can possibly make it, rather than only half-baked. I don't really see the point in trying, otherwise. Even so, the budget I have worked out is pretty low when compared to most projects. Hope all of that makes sense. And I very much doubt I would use KickStarter again for my own project. I think the website is a great way to get a first project off the ground, but to re-use it for the same idea again would be a bit of an abuse of the system to my way of thinking. I suspect my next album will be very different in tone and will be more about collaborations with other musician friends than a more direct solo effort. Regardless, I suspect that project will be much easier to fund entirely on my own nickel once this freshman album is kicked out.
Anyway, I really do appreciate everyone's comments, good or bad, and I am amazed at how much response I generated. Lest anyone think I am just sitting around waiting for money to roll in, let me assure you that this project has become a full time job for me along with all of the other projects and management I am involved with in the day-to-day quest to make a living playing this stuff. I still have a huge amount of work ahead of me, even assuming the project goes through. As such, I probably will not be following or posting on this thread for a while. As always, if anyone has any questions about me or the project, they can drop me an e-mail at zacleger@gmail.com and I will be happy to get back to them.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
God, I love this place. Someone tries to start a fund drive so that they can do what they're passionate about, and gets torn to shreds by a bunch of random strangers. Here's a wild idea: if you don't agree with Zac's donation policy, don't donate. I suppose, though, that it seems much more satisfying to list everything that's wrong with Zac and his approach.
I personally say fair play to you, Zac. You've a hell of a lot of talent, and I am in favor of anything that gets me closer to hearing that CD.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I think that asking to pay upfront for a CD that's not yet recorded is a bit cheeky, but fair enough really. Though I'm not sure I understand the equating of "nothing in this music can be done in a vacuum" with the insistence that you cannot do a recording of just yourself. It seems a pity that the only kind of music that is contemplated for a recording is ten years of development, mapping out, arranging and pinning down, etc. I suppose it's merely indicative of the modern age, but it seems a shame that ensemble planning usurps personal spontaneity - especially in the context of how expensive it is to record planned ensemble music, compared to a real solo enterprise.
However, asking for donations from strangers to fund the purchase of a musical instrument is outrageous.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Sure it is, Michael, but much of what you say here is considered outrageous as well, wouldn't you say?
Of course I agree with you on this - what's described sounds like a pretty ridiculous production, especially when it's described as a "solo album" - but what the hell, let's see what the guy comes up with.
I'd be more likely to buy a record of good piping without the extras, but maybe marketing to me and people like me isn't a great way to make a living.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Plenty of people do that, though. They seem happy enough, I guess, in a numb sort of way. What would they do without their television and their mePod and their facebook?
They'd have to read a book or something, maybe sing a song for themselves. Can you imagine the trauma?
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I guess the popularity of entertainment over engagement confirms that ignorance is indeed bliss. If you ignore as hard as you can, perhaps you can transcend this earthly existence. At least the numbskulls walking around with their ears stopped up staring at a little screen all day seem to be somewhere other than here.
Speaking of transcending, we seem to have transcended the topic of this thread.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Some years ago a young Dublin fiddler was seeking to obtain a Raleigh volunteer scholarship. In order to do this he had to raise €5000 for charity and hit upon the idea of recording an album of solo fiddling. (My memory's going. €5000 might not have been the exact sum, but it's a nice round figure in terms of the story.)
The album was recorded in the stairwell of the Irish Traditional Music Archive's old building in Merrion Square with Glenn Comiskey acting as engineer - a pleasant echoic situation (so no need for reverb).
Five hundred copies of the album were subsequently issued and almost all were sold to those who'd previously pledged support, covering not only the required €5000, but the costs of mastering and duplicating the album.
Said album is listed here - http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1880 - and I'm one of the lucky ones who obtained a copy (though CÓR gave it to me after he'd already reached his financial target).
In other words, there are many ways of raising money to fund an album, but more than a little of me prefers the road that Caoimhín took.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
What's wrong with using KickStarter? It seems to be one, of not so many, means for artists & musicians to find funds. Zac Leger may have approached his project differently, but "What is wrong with KickStarter?"
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I don't thing there's anything wrong with KickStarter. But to use it to buy an instrument is astonishing.
Buthow a bout this for a compromise? After Zac's made his record, he should donate the pipes to another piper who is yet to make a record. And they should donate the pipes after their record .... etc.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I doubt that would be a fair compromise since Zac will pay for most of the price of the pipes with money other than those from KickStarter contributions>
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I wanted to make a comment in relation to the discussion that seems to be developing about the recording in terms of what truly "solo" means. Allow me to give an example: Brian Finnegan recently released his new solo album. I know for a fact that Brian planned out that album for some time before recording. He made very considered choices about who would play with him. There are at least 20 backing musicians on his album. And it is both an intensely personal recording and a gorgeous CD. All of his backing choices add a wonderful but subtle texture to the arrangements. Despite this, Brian is (nearly) always front and center and you could never mistake it for anything other than a Brian Finnegan solo album. Now, I don't want to create the impression that I plan to copy Brian or anyone else. I don't. But I am more than simply a piper, or simply a flute player or simply a guitarist, etc. Different aspects of this album will reflect different interests while still (I hope) sounding cohesive. Now, I love albums that are completely solo; say, one set of pipes, nothing more. Some of the tracks on this CD will reflect that very traditional approach. However, that is not the only sort of sound that I am interested in. In the end, any album you record is a snapshot of where you are at THAT particular time and shows where you have been. Because this CD has been so long in coming, it has been both a life and a musical journey. A LOT of people along the way have helped to shape who I have become as a musician so far and I also want to capture some of the sounds and ideas that that journey represents. So one track, for instance, will include members of one of the first bands I ever played in, back in Eastern Tennessee. They are great musicians all and that and other tracks may include hints of the bluegrass and old timey music of the mountains where I grew up. It won't BE bluegrass or old time, but there will be influences. Other tracks will be completely solo. As I said, I am seeking a balance. I don't want this album to be purely focused on my "statement" about the music. I want it to just be good music! Certainly solo spontaneity can and will happen, but, for me anyway, nothing beats the energy and spontaneity that occur when you add other players (especially those you have worked with for years). My hope is to capture both elements on this recording. I suspect the next album will be much less planned. This may not be where every musician is coming from, but it IS where I am coming from. And a lot of the friends and fans I have described the project to have been very excited to hear it. Heck, I am excited to finally hear it!
As far as the pipes go, it really amazes me that some folks don't actually read posts and then comment on them. As I have mentioned, the final cost of the pipes will come entirely out of my pocket. It is simply a problem of timing. I have to play piping gigs in the spring and summer. I need to pay for them now in order to have them. Thus, some of the initial cost will come out of the KickStarter project. I should add that the pipes are more than half paid for at this point (by me). After the tours, that money will be replaced in the CD fund. I hope that clears any misconceptions up. It is looking more and more like it was silly to even mention the pipes, but it felt dishonest not to, especially if a breakdown of expenses was requested by potential pledgers (which it was). And, to finally answer a couple folks who have suggested borrowing a set for recording: please do not take offense, but I suspect you are not pipers. One set of pipes (even by the same maker) varies so much as to be a completely different instrument to play. Your pipes need to fit you and you need to know what pressure to use for every note. It needs to be an extension of your body and soul. Takes a long time to get there. This is the reason I sold my old set. It was good and served me well for 12 years, but I was ready to rise to a new level and take my playing higher with a set built to my specs. Every advantage you can have with an already incredibly difficult and high maintenance instrument helps. It is also another aspect of getting the best possible recording that I can. The idea of a "pay it forward" set is really cool, but would be difficult to maintain, I think. I have at times had a loaner practice set or extra chanter for students who wanted to learn, though. I hope I can get back to that point again someday in the future.
Anyway, I suppose if folks want the album, they will pledge and if they don't they won't! Thanks again for all of the comments and interest, and I really do mean that, both the supporters and the naysayers. It has certainly raised a lot of fascinating discussions and thoughts.
Well, it is back to work for me! All the best, everyone!
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Ben,
I didn't mean to imply that posting a breakdown of expenses was a silly idea, that was a good call on your part.
Just that even mentioning the pipes might have been an extra wrinkle that wasn't necessary in regards to the project. Ah, well. It certainly has kept this thread going and people talking!
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Zac, don't apologise for being honest or question if honesty was the right approach when you started the thread.
I may not be a supporter of your method, as stated above, but the fact that you were straight from post 1 means that your personal integrity was never an issue for me, just the method I'm not in agreement with.
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Sorry, you're not asking strangers to pay for your pipes, you're asking strangers to lend you some cash for your pipes. And you'll pay them back with a CD.
What I don't understand though, is if it's such a sure fire investment, why doesn't the bloke who's making the pipes just give you them now? If you've already paid half, and the rest of the dosh is guaranteed through the gigs you have coming up, surely he'd let you have the pipes now?
And the point about why not a real solo recording is not about comparing the merits of that against a complicated arranged mix of many musicians, it was simply comparing the cost of it. Something which should be important to you, as you clearly can't afford the latter.
I pledge, if the current total of $3,775 reaches
$7,550 by Wednesday Feb 9, 8:26pm EST, I will add $195 to my previous contribution (total $250).
Zac, please promise you will never write a tune in my name. If you must write a tune & upload it on YouTube dedicate it to one of my favourite haunts, The Mustard Bar & Grill. However, I do like those 7/8 tunes in an odd key.
;)
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Hi everyone,
Haven't checked back here in some time; my apologies. Obviously the Kickstarter project itself did not got through, but a lot of really wonderful people pitched in their pledges and donations and a considerable amount was still raised. My grateful to thanks to everyone involved. It will still be a tremendous boost to the project and I plan to keep going until the album is finished! If anyone is still interested in supporting the CD, I am still taking donations and pre-orders, but privately, either through Paypal or check. If you are interested, please contact me at zacleger@gmail.com. If you are not, no worries, I completely understand. This has been an amazing experience and it only promises to get more exciting!
Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Hi folks,
Zac Leger here. A quick introduction if you do not know me: I am an uilleann piper and multi-instrumentalist based in Los Angeles and I concentrate primarily on playing Irish traditional music for a living. I have had the good fortune and blessings to work with a number of talented players in the trad world and I am incredibly thankful for all of the opportunities the music has given me. Over the years as a touring musician, many, many fans have requested a solo album. It has become my dream to finalize a recording at some point, but a lack of funds has always kept me from being able to realize that dream. However, now you can help me out! Utilizing the renowned internet-based project-funding website KickStarter, I am attempting to raise funds to finish paying for a wonderful new set of pipes being crafted for me and to finish recording my solo album. I am not particularly interested in making money off this recording, I just want to place a CD of good music in the hands of the many folks who have supported me over the years. KickStarter is extremely easy to use and you can pledge whatever amount you like. It is a wonderful website devoted to allowing patronage of the arts and other creative projects and they are partnered with Amazon.com for their payment processing, so everything is private and legit. You can check out KickStarter and my project as well as a more detailed bio about me and some links to my music and videos here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1026697017/zac-leger-solo-album
While there is no pledge too great or too small, may I suggest a minimum of $15? This will ensure that you get a copy of the CD. I am currently taking orders for up to two (2) CDs ($30 pledge). If you are interested in ordering a larger number, contact when the album is released and I will see what I have in stock. Pledges of higher amounts will receive special rewards: honorable mentions, tunes written and recorded for the donors, etc. Check out the rewards page on my project profile for details.
One other small thing: if you make a pledge, afterward, please send me a short e-mail to zaclegercdproject@gmail.com with your name, mailing address (if you want a CD) and the amount you pledged. These will kept completely confidential, they are for my records only and it allows me to keep track of where to send CDs and other rewards all in one place! Making a pledge and then dropping me a short e-mail should only take about 10 minutes out your day and I would really appreciate the support! (you can always remain anonymous as well, but it will be hard to get a CD out to you!)
In closing, thank you to all of you in advance and if you feel like passing this post on to anyone you think might enjoy my music, I would be incredibly grateful. Have a happy new year and God bless,
Zac Leger
http://www.youtube.com/legertymusic
http://www.myspace.com/zacleger
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Flute_boy
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Reading your blub (if I may so say-in an overwhelming 'colonial' style and a charmingly sweet pro-active way) has modesty made me feel humble, placed as I am in the position of having already p[ayed the best music of this type possibly any where in the world tonight already...
Airfix Spitfires with tacky paint to you all...
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
No jobs in LA?
How sad, times are tough all over. Now it seems mustardia doubles as the welfare line.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BYzaDwNoE&feature=fvw
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Let's see if I understand you. You want me to send you money so you can finish paying for your new pipes?
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by gam
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
That's what I understood too. Fair play and best of luck - sadly, I've decided that my charity fund this year will be divided evenly between WWF donations and supporting my old friend who recently had his leg amputated, therefore I will not be contributing. But I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Janek
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
One of the great things about being a musician is that you always have the option to go out busking instead of just plain begging.
Where's your self-respect man?
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by skreech
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Skreetch:
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, naturally, and I think neither of us would go this route to finance a set of pipes.
But in fairness, the man is offering something in return for his supporters. It is not really a case of asking for something for nothing.
I am neither attacking nor defending, noting.
And certainly not judging anyone here.
Good Luck, all.
PS: could you spare a couple used G strings, mate?
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Piece
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Credit crunch eh..... Bummer.
You maybe onto something with the internet begging business, beats hanging around subways thats for sure.
I know those jobs are good for getting your sweaties on the readies, that how I've filled my biscuit tim.
All I'm saying, is give work a chance!
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Hey Zac.
Good luck with your project. I'm not surprised to see an immediate blast of negativity towards your presentation, since there are numerous cynics that frequent this website. Requesting money on this website strikes me as being kind of edgy, but you have introduced a very important catalyst for dialogue on how musicians can survive in the age of free downloading.
While I won't be contributing to your fund, (due to my own personal instrument funding problem), I will speak in support of the way you have presented this concept. You have provided links for people to hear your music. I have enjoyed the music from these links. This has been a benefit. I would never have heard of you otherwise. Also, now I know about Kickstarter. This is a very interesting concept.
I wonder if the naysayers actually clicked on all of your links before they posted their reactions.
Well, I chuckled at the clever responses of the naysayers, and I was tempted to post something as clever. I held back and wrote this instead. I predict a passionate reaction to your posting. I support your use of thesession.org to promote your project. I think others will to, and probably contribute to your fund, since you've provided all the evidence to evaluate your claims.
(If you get really rich from this, let us know please.)
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by halfwaythere
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
halfwaythere, I viewed all the links.
I just think that sometimes the old fashioned way is best.
My girlfriend is full time and hurting at the moment due to her fair-weather private pupils failing to make it for their lessons as a result of the weather in November and December, private lessons is about 50% of her income. She also has a studio booked for her next album but is hard pressed for the coin. I've plenty as I work overseas and my work was not affected by snow. Has she asked me for money to fund her CD? No. Fund a new instrument? No. Give her a sub so she can meet her mortgage payment for January? No. Asked her folks for a sub? No. She's tightening her belt and re-prioritising to make ends meet. Why? Because she's a professional, first rule of being a professional anything, pay your way. If you can't your just having a laugh.
Sorry Zac, a CD has to stand on it's own two feet, as do the people who make them! If you want an instrument made, be sure to have the money at hand would be my advice.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I really don't understand what people's problem is here. You all sound like freakin' right wing press. Quite a surprise from some of you who I thought were a wee bit more open-minded than the bloody Torygraph! If you can and want to support Zac, then great. If not, whatever. I don't see anything vastly different between what Zac's doing here and what PBS and NPR do in the States, with their annual funding drives begging for donations so they can continue to do what they do. Sure, PBS and NPR are big organizations that millions of people listen to, and Zac's just one guy playing a rather esoteric genre of music, but I don't see why he shouldn't give their longstanding methods a go. Also, I am sure you have no problems with other, more socially established and accepted forms of sponsorship for various activities. Thinking about it, it's not VASTLY different from seeking funding from organizations which take most of their money from donations and use them to fund artists, academics, writers, etc.
He's a fine musician and I have no doubts he will produce a fine album.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Solidamahog, just because something is "old-fashioned" and has worked for a lot of people doesn't mean it's best, or that it's going to work for everyone.
I guess you have a go at people who look for things on Freecycle as well? "If you want a coffee table, you should have to work hard to be able to *afford* that bloody coffee table!"
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Anyway, back to the old funding applications.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Fair play to these chap for trying something new .
However I am slightly bemused as I thought making an album was relativly cheap this days ,new technology and all that stuff .
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by bazouki dave
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
"Thinking about it, it's not VASTLY different from seeking funding from organizations which take most of their money from donations and use them to fund artists, academics, writers, etc."
Yes it is.
People giving money to support the arts, then the arts organisation distribute the money to those artist THEY consider deserving. That is very different to the individual artists going out and begging for money from strangers.
I've looked at the clips, the lad does have talent, and I am quite sure that if he wants it enough he will make his CD. As for his new pipes, he could do what most people would - make do with his present set until he can afford new ones. Or he might find a new set on freecycle (in your eyes is asking if anyone has an old sofa they don't want on freecycle really the same as asking people for money so that you can buy a new one?)
God knows, I spend half my life helping deserving causes, that's why I'm so poor. But when the begging bowl comes out, the shutters go up. It's not the giving that is offensive, it's the asking.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by skreech
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
FWIW I could do with another set of pipes and money to do another CD. Enquire within.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I'd much rather give money directly to an artist than have my donations distributed for me. Good luck Zac! I've naught to give after the tax man robs me but I wish you luck.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by shanty
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
And I really need a Stradivaruis. If you buy me one I'll play you a tune on it.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by skreech
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Wow, this thread is depressing. Seriously.
1) It's not as if it's the first kickstarter project to be posted on here (and the other time(s) there wasn't so much negativity)
2) I don't believe in doing really good sound for albums myself (mostly because I'm an idiot who listens to music on crap audio equipment anyway), but anyone who thinks you can get an album done on less than $1000 is completely off their rocker. $2-3000 is a more likely figure. (studio rental time, mixing and all that stuff doesn't come cheap if you want it done well). $8200
seems a bit over the top - but I suppose with a solo album you need to hire other musicians - or do all the backing yourself which makes recording all the longer - and you have to live while recording. (Also I'm aware of what people can get done in France - maybe the US is more expensive)
3) It's customary for recordings to be funded as much as possible before they are recorded. Kickstarter is only "internetizing" what bands have been doing for ages. You just promise to buy the CD beforehand - I've done it dozens of times
4) He's not asking money for nothing, he's offering you an advance opportunity to buy his CD. And thanks to kickstarter, you're not taking much of a risk, seeing as you won't pay anything unless he reaches his target.
Seriously, what the heck is wrong with you people?! Thanks TSS for keeping my faith in mustard-board-humanity to some extent...
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Tirno
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
FWIW, Zac, I think your budget is a bit high - not so much for what you estimate it will cost, but for the amount that can "easily" get funded on kickstarter.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Tirno
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Zac,
I read your post and links. I've had to buy and replace my stolen instruments over the years, in the same way as mentioned by others in reply to this post; although on humble wages, a bit of belt-tightening can achieve results.
As may be you are trying a different approach.
However may I ask, and I quote from your appeal,
"THIS PROJECT WILL ONLY BE FUNDED IF AT LEAST $8,200 IS PLEDGED BY THURSDAY FEB 10, 8:26PM EST."
what happens at 8.27pm if you don't have $8,200?
If the project fails to achieve this target will the donations be returned?
Just curious...
all the best
Brian x
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by briantheflute
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
TSS, as I mentioned earlier in a post above I'm old school re funding ones ambitions. Old school in as much as I'm a wee bit left of centre. I believe in working hard and contributing so those less fortunate than myself can receive opportunities otherwise denied them. Or enabling activities that have no profit motive or profit earning potential but enrich our society by whatever endeavor. In all of that I'm quite open minded.
At this present time arts funding, in the UK and I'd think given the circumstances ireland as well, has just dropped off the radar, unless in with the really in crowd or a performer with the established traditional beneficiaries of arts funding, ie classical arts.
This means that many of the festivals that have popped up in recent years will no longer be happening as well as many of the venues that have been hosting the new wave of trad acts and, as a result many of those trad acts will have to stand up to be counted or find alternative employment. Musicians & venues way more than in the last 10 or 12 years will now have to make it pay to keep it going, just like the olden days.
Schools have just had or are about to have, depending the local authority, music cut from the curriculum, the degree to which again is determined by the local authorities involved. In many areas this is/will be catastrophic for traditional music opportunities in school, for many kids this is the only chance they'll get and it's either been removed or about to be so. This really galls me.
I could fill a thread of deserving causes including academic research : ) I mean no slight on Zac, I simply want to push him to help himself. I've viewed his links and listened to each of his offerings on his myspace page and I conclude that he is not without ability, and not without the means. He has been honest, but he is asking to fund a new set of pipes with monies lent to be repaid with proceeds of a CD that hasn't been made. Is that not the very economic equation that recently brought the house down?
So 10/10 for imagination. 0/10 for pragmatism, IMO.
Why not call the maker and tell him or her there will be a delay. Hire a couple of mic's a good pre amp and quality A?D converters find a nice room record the album, pay for mixing & mastering, do a run of 1000 disks, get out there and punt it. All with the existing equipment: pipes guitar zook flute mac software and other resources used to record the myspace offerings. With the proceeds buy the new pipes. It's what I'd do, but then I'm old fashioned.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Thanks, Tirno.
"People giving money to support the arts, then the arts organisation distribute the money to those artist THEY consider deserving. That is very different to the individual artists going out and begging for money from strangers."
The problem with arts organizations or other organizations who, say, fund academic research is that there is so much politicking and backbiting, not to mention most funding bodies have agendas, or particular things people on their committees want to see and promote for financial and other purposes, that oftentimes artists or researchers who have done amazing work don't get the funding. When you donate money to a funding organization, you're entrusting it to the control of a committee who may or may not share your views about who deserves grants. So whats wrong with Zac's populist approach? Why not put it directly to the contributors, who can make a decision about whether or not they as individuals like this particular artist's work, rather than organizations where you have to negotiate a morass of politics and red tape?
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
(I hadn't notice the new pipes part in Zac's blurb - I thought you guys were pulling his leg over that. In other words, he's hoping to make enough money off his solo CD to finish buying his pipes. Which is not the same thing as not making any money of it full stop. I don't think it changes anything, but I understand the reactions a bit better - although I say full points for honesty)
Brian: if the $8200 is not met, no money is taken from anyone
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Tirno
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I apologise in advance that I misunderstood about the target.
I see from re-reading that these are pledges and NOT donations.
Sorry Zac.
All the best
Brian x
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by briantheflute
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
SS, it's really not about the difference between organisational and personal giving - I happened to use that example because you brought up sponsorship, which invariably happens through an organisation of some sort.
Nor is it about politics - you suggested my view was 'right-wing'. If anything it is quite the opposite. "I Want" and "give me" seem to be quite prevalent amongst public school kids, but round here people would rather starve than ask for charity. My mother's favourite saying was "I want gets a smacked bottom."
And that, I think is the crux of the matter - the difference in what I see as acceptable behaviour or not lies in who initiates the conversation:
If I come to you and say "Would you like a new set of pipes?" and you say "yes please", that is a very different conversation to you coming to me and saying "Will you buy me a new set of pipes?"
And that is how I see Zac's situation - had he put his page on Kickstarter and left it there for people actively seeking projects to fund to see, I would have absolutely no objection and would wish him luck. It's the post soliciting donations that I find objectionable. It's a matter of manners and etiquette, not politics.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by skreech
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
How are people who enjoy Zac's music, have been to his gigs, or *might* like his music supposed to know about it then? I had never heard of Kickstarter until now, so even if I were looking for traditional music projects to fund, I wouldn't have gone there. It's a Catch-22. You're saying it's bad manners to ask for donations, but if you don't ask, you're probably not going to get many because a lot of the people who are interested in your music won't know about your project.
Not everyone shares your Calvinist views of these things.
On the other hand, I am taking donations of regulators and any flat sets people might not want.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I don't think I'm a Calvinist
And I suspect theat deep down your own moral values are probable a bit closer to mine than you care to admit: if you need a new item, do you save up for it, or do you go round asking strangers for money?
As for the catch 22 situation, yes it is, but that's just life. If you're in desparate need, you do everything in your power to sort the situation out for yourself. If someone happens to notice your plight and help you out, regard that as good fortune. But you don't go looking for charity as an easy first option.
Regarding Kickstarter, you and I might not have known that it existed, but evidently a lot of people who want to give money to arts projects do, and if you or I were in that situation we would probably find it. Interestingly there is no mention of new pipes on his page there - the entire $8,000 is supposedly the CD costs. I'm guessing that's because the Kickstarter people don't see buying yourself a new set of pipes as an 'artistic project'.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by skreech
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Zac - I had the pleasure of sharing a few tunes with you in Arizona this past Fall when you were passing thru in support of John Whelan's house concert series. I will more than happy to put the word out locally for you. Best of luck and hope to see you pass through our town again someday.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
While you may or may not know Zac personally, a lot of us do and appreciate both his musical ability as well as his enormous generosity of spirit and as a teacher and are more than happy to help him out with this effort.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
The simple fact is that skreech et al are wrong to say it is bad manners and to equate it with begging / asking for money.
Whether you agree with his goal or not, whether you suspect that the brunt of the cost is going towards pipes and not a CD, and even if you think he's a horrible musician, you're simply not being intellectually honest when you equate this with begging.
He is asking for donations and giving something for it = much closer to busking! In effect, however, he is getting preorders on his CD. But at any rate he isn't doing anything that NPR and the like don't do. He isn't doing anything that is remotely unethical.
If you don't like it, don't contribute (for the record, I will not be contributing either). But don't make factually incorrect posts to try to support your own personal perspective.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Nico
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I should make a kickstarter project to fund my next ski-vacation. In exchange for funding, I'll send pictures of how much fun we had.
But seriously. If you're a professional musician, making a CD isn't a lark on a ski-slope. It's a product of your art, something you have to work hard on, and produce well, in order to pay your rent.
I think people wouldn't be nearly as snarky if he hadn't added the set of pipes to the mix. Lots of us would love to have a new, expensive instrument. Not many of us would have the chutzpah to suggest that we are good enough musicians that other people might/should be happy to buy the fancy new instrument for us in exchange for a not-yet-produced CD.
In short, if he gets it funded, good for him. It means he's got the friends and fans to pull it off. On the other hand, If he doesn't get funded, then... maybe it's time to reevaluate career choices?
Kickstarter is a handy way of testing the waters before diving in... It seems a much safer way to start a recording project than ponying up $8K out of pocket without any idea how many folks would actually buy the finished product.
But, like many others, my charitable contributions are going to actual charities. There certainly are a handful of musicians out there for whom I would be (and have been) willing to pony up cash to help out on kickstarter, but I do so pretty selectively, so I'll wait to buy the CD until I've heard it.
So good luck, Zac.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Georgi
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Figured you'd speak up eventually Mr Eskin.
Evidently Zac should have no problem getting his funding if what you say is true about him having plenty of fans and supporters. Then why beg on the internet?
This plea for money so he can buy a new set of pipes and fund it with a future CD reeks of another youngster with rockstar aspirations who feels entitled to get everything he wants handed to him on a silver platter.
The whole thing makes me want to puke.
How bout the set of pipes he's already got. That's a good sounding set but no, he's wants more!
There's folks starving and losing their homes and this guy wants people to buy him a new set of pipes?
Here's some things that I believe in.
1. Do an honest days work for an honest days wage.
2. A little elbow grease with sweat and blood never hurt anyone.
3.Support yourself and don't be a mooch.
4.Always have another skill handy to fall back on so you can.support yourself.
5.There are those who truly do need charity like the severly disabled, orphaned children, the mentaly handicapped, etc.
6. It's time that youngsters who think they suffer but actually are afflicted with a severe expectation of entitlement need to learn what it's like to "WORK" for a living.
Peace
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Kickstarter seems like a great way to efficiently handle this sort of project, leveraging what the internet does best as far as communication, simple payment, public and open progress tracking, etc.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Peace, I agree with your belief system, but it really has nothing to do with Zac's project.
If you want to support him support him, if you don't, give your money to homeless orphans instead, that's your business.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Well his project must be a far cry different than how strange his original post makes it out to be.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Screech, of course I wouldn't go around asking strangers for money.... Wait, except I do because I've filled out applications for funding to travel to various places for ostensibly research or conferences or to support research, which to me seems like asking for money from strangers to do something I want to do. Like I said in my previous couple posts, there doesn't seem to be any great amount of difference between that and what Zac is doing and even less difference between him and what NPR and PBS do.
Organizations, or the people on the committees who make decisions over who and who not to fund, have visions and agendas they are trying to promote and they give out grants to people whom they think fit in with their visions. You could have an awesome project and get rejected because it doesn't fit in with the organization's vision.
Nick, well said.
Gary and Screech, did you also used to walk to school in the snow, uphill both ways? Moralizing and claiming your Point of View is the only right one and using ad hominum attacks on those who might have a different perspective -- calling people mooches, entitled, etc. -- just weakens your argument. You don't know what work Zac has or hasn't done, or how hard he has or has not worked.
To be honest, if I had the musical chops to create some project that would be worth seeking any kind of funding for, thereby supporting myself (and that full set in B), I'd feckin' give it a go.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
O.K. I get the bit about paying up front for the promise of receiving a CD & chipping in any extra by those who want to support you (similar to a sliding scale donation). It's the not wanting to make money, just pay for a set of pipes that seems slightly ... disingenuous.
All I can say is, Zac you're lucky you caught me right after I was paid.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@Peace: He's not begging on the internet, he's not mooching, and he certainly doesn't seem to feel he's entitled to people's money. He's set up a project and asked for donations, and he's posted one post on a website that many people look at to let people know it exists. Your post is either really amusing or really disgusting. Thank goodness there are artists out there willing to be poor and run the risk of needing donations and financial assistance. The world would be a poorer place if nobody made art.
@Peace and Skreech: Did you both manage to read so poorly that you missed the part where he said he'd already sold his set to help finance this one (in part)?
@Ben and anyone else who's posted something similar: Why on earth do you find it disingenuous that he's using the money for pipes *and* a CD, and not just a CD? Does any musician, anywhere, price their CDs *just* to cover costs? In many ways, he's being way less disingenuous. At least we know the money is going towards music and musical instruments, not something as banal as rent, or as destructive as illegal drugs. I'm also surprised that nobody has pointed out that this is actually fairly traditional: Several irish music historians have pointed out that due to the cost of uilleann (union) pipes, harps, and other instruments in the 18th and 19 century, it was most likely that musicians were either given the instrument by a wealthy benefactor (say a landowner), or a village helped to fund the instrument and equip the musician.
Seriously, I don't get the vitriol at all here. Either support him, or don't. It's really that simple.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Nico
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@Nico: Well stated!
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
"I'm also surprised that nobody has pointed out that this is actually fairly traditional: Several irish music historians have pointed out that due to the cost of uilleann (union) pipes, harps, and other instruments in the 18th and 19 century, it was most likely that musicians were either given the instrument by a wealthy benefactor (say a landowner), or a village helped to fund the instrument and equip the musician."
I was going to point that out, saying that musicians in the 18th and 19th C worked to get patronage from landowners, mainly, in order to support themselves and yes, acquire new instruments if necessary. Then I got lost in general ranting.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
To further Nick's first point, I suppose you lot also hate the idea of giving a commissions to painters and sculptors before they've created the work the commission will be for.
That Sistine Chapel is butt-ugly anyway.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Emily you're really starting to sound like a lawyer with your claim about weakening arguments. How's the schooling going?
If you re-read my 6 points though I think you will find that they all make good sense and are morally and ethically very good things to live your life by.
The sixth one in particular is one that has over taken much of the youth in developed countries because many of them really don't have to work, so, their sense of work ethic is non exsitant.
You being in the younger catagory though would possibly make those things aimed at you so I can under stand how you'd get defensive. My statement is merely meant as food for thought and a direct response to how I interpret the OP, which to me really does sound like it was written by someone who feels entitled to recieve what they ask for.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I'm definitely not studying to be a lawyer.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Nico, I just made a contribution. I'm supporting Zac & the music I play. I'm not faulting Zac for finding a creative way to raise money. But when I do give money, to anyone, I don't see a problem in giving feedback. I'm not saying don't do it. I was careful to say I 'felt' it was *slightly* ... disingenuous. [Hoping not to make too much out of that bit] It's grand when a musician is able to support his or her music. It's grand when some of us want to be part of that community & are willing to offer support.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
From insulting someone for not working hard enough to insulting someone else for having higher education. Good job, Gary.
For what it's worth, when I re-read your six points, I find they make less sense than they did at first (which wasn't much at all anyway!) and are not morally or ethically viable ways to live ones life.
I find your statement that just because TheSilverSpear is young means that is the only reason she thinks your ageist, unfounded, and personally insulting comment is a poor thing to say, completely insulting, and a poor use of logic. I think it's time that privileged, middle-aged, white, North American males stop trying to delude themselves that they got where they are by dint of their hard work and perseverance only.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Nico
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@Ben
dis·in·gen·u·ous Adjective /ˌdisinˈjenyo͞oəs/
Synonyms:
adjective: insincere, false, devious, hollow-hearted
Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does
Again, why on earth do you think it is at *all* disingenuous? Disingenuous would have been if he had left out any mention of the pipes at all, but left his goal as high as he has put it, and then used the majority of the money for the pipes instead of the CD.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Nico
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I have no proof it is, Nico.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Ah Nico, seems that the truth about hard work and good ethical and moral values don't mean much to you do they?
That's exactly the entitlement affliction as it is in action and you'll defend it at all cost. Trying to explain it any clearer to you will be like explaining it to a post if you don't already get it.
Well good luck to you guy's, I've got to go to work on rebuilding an old deck and it's raining out and I've got to don my rain gear so I'll get back later.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@SS:
"Screech, of course I wouldn't go around asking strangers for money.... Wait, except I do because I've filled out applications for funding to travel to various places for ostensibly research or conferences or to support research, which to me seems like asking for money from strangers to do something I want to do."
But you are filling applications to people who are OFFERING money for the sort of projects you are involved with. That is where (in my eyes at least) the difference lies.
As for 'calling people mooches', I see it more as calling a spade a spade. Asking strangers for money is begging.
I accept that Zec has every right to post here, and is doing nothing 'wrong'. But he is doing something that I find repugnant, and as such I think I have an equal right to air my view on the matter.
@nico: "Why on earth do you find it disingenuous that he's using the money for pipes *and* a CD, and not just a CD? "
Because if you ask for money for a project, people expect you to spend the money only on that project, and in a cost effective manner. If an organisation were to fund Emily to travel somewhere for her research, they might expect to be paying the train fare, or fuel costs, they wouldn't expect to be buying her a car to go in.
Same thing here. If someone says they need $8000 to make a CD, you expect that to be the cost of making the CD in a cost effective manner - if making the CD requires a set of pipe for a couple of weeks, you would expect the artist to rent a set, or us a studio who has what he needs amongst their house instruments. If he is going to be using the money to buy a set of pipes he should say that is what he is going to do with it.
I'm pretty sure that if he was honest about his intentions, his page would not be allowed on kickstarter, because their interest is in funding projects, not buying people hardware.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by skreech
Zac, I wish you the best with this project.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Zac - I just kicked in a little sumthin' sumthin' for this project, - good luck!
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@screech - "if making the CD requires a set of pipe for a couple of weeks, you would expect the artist to rent a set, or us a studio who has what he needs amongst their house instruments"
OK, I really can't answer this, has anyone <ever> seen a "house set of Uilleann pipes" in a studio. I'm curious.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Peace,
You appear to be suggesting that music isn't work. If that's indeed the case, then all the professional musicians (many of whom are among our favorites) in the world are no less wicked than Zac here.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Georgi
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Anyone who knows Zac personally knows he works incredibly hard as a musician and is both a generous soul and a person of high integrity.
I can't say I'm surprised by the vitriol here, intolerance and nastiness hiding behind anonymous user names seems to be the norm.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I too am a working musician whose musician income doesn't pay the bills, so I have many other skills with which I make a living by. I work 3 different jobs to support my life as a musician.
Hard work and solid work ethic has enabled me to purchase 2 wonderful sets of pipes.
Like I said before "A little elbow grease with some sweat and blood never hurt anyone" . Yes, playing music is hard work, but, you better have another skill to fall back on because it won't always pay the bills.
Standing here in my rain gear, gotta go work ot the old deck, See Ya.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I reread the OP, several times, & I do not consider it disingenuous. The funds are being used to finish paying for the new set of pipes & the production of the CD.
If I was being skeptical at first I actually consider it a healthy trait. In fairness to Zac Leger it is impossible for me to know what his expenses will be. For his sake I hope they aren't more than he raises.*
I'm usually willing to consider & reconsider my comments & opinions to a fault.
* it's been known to happen. I'm thinking of creative people I have known in similar situations.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Ben Steen
.
Oh, Michael, my name is Gary Burman.
Peace
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@Peace: Thanks for posting your name. Humanizes the whole debate.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
The poor guy is just asking in the wrong place. Most musicians are broke.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gallowglass
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
You're right Gallowglass.
We are broke and I gotta go work out in the rain, frikkin sucks !
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@Gallowglass: Most, but not all. Particularly it seems among the Uilleann pipes/Anglo concertina enthusiast crowd. Met a lot of engineers, physicians, other professionals who play that have plenty of discretionary money to help out on projects like this if invited. Plus, particularly at the basic level of funding, you're getting a copy of the CD, which knowing Zac, should be quite enjoyable.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I wonder if Gary read any of my posts or Nico's?
Do you seriously think that if everyone on the entire planet from the beginning of civilization as we know it in ancient Mesopotamia to January 2011 had to engage in back breaking physical labour from sunrise to sunset every day of their lives until they became too decrepit to do it, we would have as much great art, music, and literature as we do?
Arts patronage has a very long history. Get over it.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Emily, don't forget that this music we play is the music of farmers, brick masons, carpenters, day laborers, tinkers, sheepherders and all the common hard working folk. Yes it is the music of folks who broke their backs every day. Then, when the days work was done, they came home and played music!
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Good grief Skreech,
The idea of a "house set of pipes" is ridiculous.
Asking for money without offering anything in return is "begging", but that's not what Zac is doing. He's offering a pile of stuff (CDs, honorable mentions, personal tunes) in exchange for donations.
Something about his request clearly rubs you the wrong way, but I really don't understand where you come off saying he's being dishonest. He talks about the pipes quite directly on the kickstarter page, when he says: "the money that I make from this KickStarter project will go directly into funding the album and finishing off what I owe on the pipes."
Sounds like he puts it right out there. Now what's he being dishonest about, again?
That said, after reading the kickstarter guidelines, it seems like adding the pipes to the mix is a grey area. They do say "No Charity" (giving "buy Jenny a Prom Dress" as the example), but they don't really suggest that "I'll need to buy a printing press" is an unacceptable expense for a printing project. I have to assume that they don't feel terribly strongly about it. I would have to assume that "Pay off my credit card debt and make a CD" would be an unacceptable project description.
But then again, if it's really unacceptable, it's up to Kickstarter to cancel it, not you. Though you're welcome to email them and complain... and we'll see what happens.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Georgi
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
"As for 'calling people mooches', I see it more as calling a spade a spade. Asking strangers for money is begging."
I guess that's what musicians who ask for money from people buying their albums or going to their gigs are doing then.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Gary, sure, some of them were, but by your logic, if a doctor wanted to play this music, would it not be "his" music? In any case, the music wasn't always the provenance of the labouring classes in all cases, although it's got this idealized utopian peasantry thing attacked to it now. People were employed as musicians and given money to do things like write tunes for their patrons.
In any case, I wasn't talking *just* about traditional music, but about art, music, and literature on a wider scale.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
"Emily, don't forget that this music we play is the music of farmers, brick masons, carpenters, day laborers, tinkers, sheepherders and all the common hard working folk. Yes it is the music of folks who broke their backs every day. Then, when the days work was done, they came home and played music!"
Rubbish.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by bogman
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Gary, you should read a little. You might start with O'Neill's Irish Musicians and Minstrels. Your overly romanticized (and quite false) view of things needs some correcting. The majority of the pipers listed in that book from the 1700s and 1800s were either fairly independently wealthy, wealthy farmers (which often amounted to the same thing), or had wealthy patrons (who, gasp, *gave* them money and instruments!). The majority of the good musicians, the ones people learned from and that were desired, were not labourers. Labourers couldn't afford pipes, nor would they have had the leisure time to learn to play them properly.
For the record, attacking me, instead of my message, does you no good at all. This: "Ah Nico, seems that the truth about hard work and good ethical and moral values don't mean much to you do they?" is not engaging in a discussion, and shows you know nothing about that which you are speaking.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Nico
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
*attached to it...
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Emily,
Whew, here's the point, I'll try to be very clear.
When somone works hard for what they have without depending on others to coddle them, it develops a sense of acomplishment that builds charachter in a person.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Nico, the travellers were certainly not wealthy and some of the best piping tradition comes from them.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Nico you attacked my 6 points as well. You should go read them again.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
OMG are you telling me we're playing the music of the #$&#***middle class! What's next? You gonna tell me Seamus Ennis was a file clerk or that Matt Malloy was a mailman! Right....
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by shanty
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I admire Zac for how he's going about this. We all get to take some sense of ownership of his CD, and I'm sure he'll deliver an even more amazing recording as a result of knowing that his friends, family, and the Irish music community made it possible. By bringing in the community the task is bigger than just Zac.
Good works deserve support. I recently worked with Patrick Cassidy on the music for the upcoming motion picture "Kill the Irishman". Hundreds of people either volunteered or worked at substantially less than normal rates to make this movie and tell this story.
Good music, good art, good story telling all deserve to be supported, a civil society isn't just about what one can accomplish solely on one's own. Knowing when to ask for assistance to achieve something bigger than what one can do one's own is I think a noble act.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
"When someone works hard for what they have without depending on others to coddle them, it develops a sense of accomplishment that builds character in a person."
Look dude - if you don't want to buy the kid's album then don't. He wasn't asking to be coddled.
"Peace" my arse - your name should be Condescending Brawler
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I did, and there are flaws with all of them. Logical flaws and inherent assumptions that are flawed.
"When somone works hard for what they have without depending on others to coddle them, it develops a sense of acomplishment that builds charachter in a person. "
This sentence is not only logically flawed, but inherent in it is the assumption that one can determine both what exactly it means to have "others coddle them", but also that they have not been coddled. You as a North-American, middle-aged, white, male, have a level of privilege that others who do not share your qualities do not have. Your statements are based on this, and it means they will always be inherently flawed. As you noted, I "attacked" your six points. You attacked me and Emily. Stop doing this. Discuss the points.
BTW, your statement regarding travellers' piping quality is an opinion. And as you recognize, only some of the piping comes from them, anyway. It does nothing to bolster your argument that this music is the music of labourers who broke their back all day, and by the way you worded your post, it can only be taken to mean you think it is the music *only* or at least *primarily* of them. This is false, as even a cursory study of the history of the piping and harp playing traditional will bear out.
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by Nico
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
'Condescending Brawlers' ---Save that next time someone asks suggestions for a name for thier 'celtic' group!
# Posted on January 12th 2011 by shanty
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Why are you all ripping Zac a new one when Matt and Shannon Heaton posted here using Kickstart to do an album and nobody had a negative word? I guess you all don't realize that Zac is every bit as talented as the Heatons. He just got back from touring with John Whelan.
I'm in for an album, since I'd buy one anyway. It doesn't matter much to me whether I pay a little in advance.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by ElaineT
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Funnily enough it's not uncommon practice now with some big name (or formerly big name) rock bands to ask for pre-orders to pay for recording. Especially among semi-retired bands who have gone back out touring as a result of collapsed sales due to piracy. It is getting more and more difficult to justify recordings other than for promotion when people just help themselves for free.
I'd imagine it'll be more difficult with a relatively unknown artist but nothing ventured nothing gained. To be honest, I would say it was a mistake to bring the pipes payment into it. There are literally thousands of very talented young players who could make a great album but everyone faces the same financial hurdles if you dedicate all your time to the music, unless you have some sort of sugar daddy. I would be surprised if the appeal works but good luck with it and don't let the negative comments worry you.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by bogman
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Like Elaine and others, I don't understand the amount of vitriol directed at this post and this piper. It seems a pretty simple proposition to me. Plenty of folksingers put out records by borrowing a few thousand dollars from an "angel" - usually a well-heeled fan - because most working musicians don't make the kind of money that allows them to amass enough money to produce CDs at the level they need to be working at.
This kickstart idea allows the artist to approach fans directly, eliminating or reducing the need for the "angel". Rather than owing a large sum of money to one person, the artist ends up with a good number of CDs in circulation from day one, which is very good for business. If it works, it means more artists put out more records - I think this is a good thing, because some of those records (not all) will be good ones. If it doesn't work, not much changes, so there's no reason not to give it a go.
As for the idea of buying a set of pipes, as long as he's telling you what you're investing in, you can decide whether or not you want to buy in. When Tracy Grammer's fiddle gave up the ghost, fans put up the money that replaced it, because they wanted to hear her play on a good instrument. If Leger's fans feel this is worth putting up a few bones for, he'll get his pipes. If not, he won't. Either way, this will have no effect on anyone's fortunes but his, so I don't see what's to get worked up about.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
@bogman:
this really isn't an advance sales situation we are talking about. If Zac had come in here saying "I'm making a new CD does anyone want to buy an advance copy for the normal retail price?" That would be advance sales, and not a problem, he would be asking for fair exchange, not charity That. But what he's actually asking for in his post are donations (of more than the retail value of the CD) towards his new pipes, and in exchange he will give you a copy of his CD, much as a charity gives you a sticker for your lapel when you make a donation. When you donate to charity you are giving away money, not buying a lapel sticker.
Jon:
"As for the idea of buying a set of pipes, as long as he's telling you what you're investing in, you can decide whether or not you want to buy in"
The issue there is that although he has been open with us here, on his Kickstarter page he makes it appear that all the money will be spent on producing the CD. If you are using other people's money you have to be absolutely open and transparent. Buying capital equipment isn't a normal part of CD production, so if that is where a major part of the money is to go, he should be telling potential donors.
Tracy Grammer's fiddle - I'm not familiar with what happened. Did the fans organise amongst themselves, or send her money unsolicited when they heard her story? Or did she go round her fans asking them for money? Because it's the asking that people here object to. Zac is obviously very talented, and I certainly hope he gets the money for his pipes, but wouldn't it be a whole lot better (for his own self esteem as much as anything else) if he could do it without coming cap-in-hand to us - begging money from strangers?
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by skreech
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Matt & Shannon Heaton's Kickstarter project, the webpage, is an excellent model for anyone wishing to raise funding. It was done with a great deal of consideration as to how every dollar was to be spent. There is no doubt about their talent musically & their professionalism in writing the Kickstarter information.
I'm hoping this is not viewed as a rant. It's just that I know so many musicians & artists who do need money & I think it worth seeing how the challenge can be met.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
"The issue there is that although he has been open with us here, on his Kickstarter page he makes it appear that all the money will be spent on producing the CD."
Not even remotely. Read the kickstarter page again, especially the part where it says:
"So the money that I make from this KickStarter project will go directly into funding the album and finishing off what I owe on the pipes."
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Georgi
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Skreech - I don't know if this is a new addition, but when I looked at the Kickstarter page, the new pipes are mentioned in the first paragraph.
As for the "begging" and the "charity", it just doesn't look a lot like either of those to me. The first option is just telling his fans to put their money where their mouth is. The $250 option - well, there are some people out there (at least one, it seems) who think that $250 is a cheap buy-in to be a patron of the arts. If that's worth $250 to them, isn't that commerce? There's something that only Zac Leger has, that someone wants to buy. Huzzah for capitalism.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Here's a pledge challenge. Zac, if you respond on this thread with an itemized listing of your expenses I will double my initial contribution (3 x's total). I will also email for pledges of support on your KickStarter project to everyone I know who listens to Irish traditional music.
Ben
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Hi folks,
Zac here. Wow! I never expected such a huge and varied response! I will just comment on a couple of issues raised. One thing I noticed was how quickly many folks raised an objection about me "begging" for money without apparently having read the post. First off, I am not looking to make money off this CD. I suspect most of the first run of this album will go right into the hands fans who have already paid for it. Rather, I have had a hugely consistent demand for an album of my music and this project is way to put a CD in the hands of the many fans and friends that have requested one over the years, and as a thanks for the many, many kindnesses and help I have received in my journey through the music. Everyone who contributes at least $15 to the project gets a CD. Everyone. And higher pledges will receive other rewards based on the amount donated. You actually cannot use Kickstarter unless you offer a reward system. Kickstarter is designed to be a way for patrons to support artists (people who typically do not have much money, and despite how hard I work I am very typical!). Indeed, it reminds me much of past centuries in Ireland when musicians had patrons who helped them along in their artistic ventures. You are not only paying for and pre-ordering your own copy of the CD, you are actually directly involved in helping fund the recording process! Personally, I think that is neat. It speaks of a communal effort that is largely lacking in the modern music industry. If you take a look at Kickstarter.com you will see a whole host of wonderful projects from albums to independent films to books in need of a publisher. One young film maker used the money he made with Kickstarter to make his documentary about the uilleann pipes! Now, to clarify on another sentiment that seemed pretty common in this thread: I work! I play this music professionally and have for many years. I tour hard, teach and do studio work when I can and have held many different non-musical jobs as well to make ends meet. When the weather permits, I go out and busk. However, after bills and rent, savings can only go so far. I had the option to finance some decent instruments so I could continue working, buy some recording equipment or record an album. I couldn't do all three. I choose the instruments so that I could continue working. This album is both my dream and also a product that a lot of people have asked for and I feel this is a great way to provide it. As far as the pipes go: well, first and foremost I am a piper. I need a set in order to play. My old set was sold to fund the new one, indeed I have sold every instrument or worthwhile item I could spare to put toward them(and I have paid off much of the new set). However, there is no album without a set of pipes and I cannot play any of the gigs I have coming up later in the year without them, either. Maybe it would have been better not to mention the pipes at all, but as I am asking fans to trust me with an investment, I felt I should be honest. The pipes are part of the cost of finishing the recording. Would you have objected the same if I had said part of the cost was for mics and pre-amps? It al comes down to having the equipment. And, just speaking for myself, I have had the chance to pass along or help purchase instruments in the past for up and coming players. It is an amazing feeling to hear someone playing wonderful music on an instrument that you helped provide. In nearly every way, you are actively contributing to this process when you pledge.
I also picked the budget based on very careful estimates of cost for the CD. Yes, making an album is much cheaper than it used to be, but it still costs, especially if you don't have your own studio. Ten years of session work on other peoples' albums has shown me that. I am guessing I will still end up paying for about half the album out of my pocket directly. Whatever I make from Kickstarter will be the boost that helps get me to the finish line - and a finished CD into your hands. I believe I have enough fans and friends in the trad community that we can get this album off and running. And remember, I am not asking for much. If enough folks simply invested $15 towards their copy of the album, the quota would be met in no time (and any money I do make from the CD will likely go right back into providing more music for fans on another album). If you are not interested, I understand. But my reason for posting something I knew would be a bit controversial here was simply to spread the word as much as I can. If you like my music and want a CD of it, this is the best way I could come up with for the foreseeable future. Hope that clears a few things up. For those of you that have already pledged and spread the word, I cannot tell you how much it means to me! I will be sending out updates to my patrons as things progress.
Oh, and to answer one of the big questions: if the project does not meet quota by the end of the mandated time period, it doesn't go through. No one's cards will charged, no bank accounts are in danger, I promise!
All the very best,
Zac
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Flute_boy
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Since Ben had requested them, here are a few figures and my thought process in terms of recording this album:
First off, KickStarter and Amazon.com (Amazon processes and handles all of the payments) both take 5%. So that is 10% right off the top. Assuming I make just the quota, that is over $800 right there.
Secondly, I have to pay both the sound engineer and the studio musicians I hire and pay them fairly. I have made a lot of good engineer friends who are willing to give me deals or pay back favors so that will help. Even so, it takes hours of recording, mixing and mastering to finish a CD. Low end of most studio engineers is $35 to $50 an hour and I suspect the mastering alone will be in the $400 to $600 range. My estimates are going to be on this costing around 2 grand if not much more.
Next, I have to pay my fellow musicians. Standard pro level pay is $100 a track, minimum. A lot of these folks are friends and might do it for free, but they deserve to be compensated. And when I say track, I really do mean "per track". In other words, if one musician lays down two fiddle tracks and a bass track one selection of tunes, that is $300 dollars. That is industry standard. I have spent years working out carefully the artists I feel are right for this project and have shaved costs from as many places as I can. Still, my estimate for musicians is at almost exactly $2000. Their contributions and talents will be worthwhile to the sound and texture of the album.
So, now we are up to $4000 at least, if not more. Possibly $5000 if we are being realistic. So that is recording out of the way. What comes next? Well, replicating a decent low-end stock run of CDs is usually at 1000 CDs (most of which will go instantly to folks that have already paid for them). I don't want to get less for fear that I may not have enough to go around (the next smallest run is usually 500 albums). If I can afford a run of more, I may do so. A run of 1000, with shipping taken into account is about $1500 when all is said in done. We haven't even covered CD artwork (which will be minimal for this album to save costs but probably still in the hundreds for the help of a good graphic designer) or the CD liner notes (in which I would like to include comprehensive notes about the tunes and compositions as well as grateful thanks to many people who helped make the album possible; this all costs extra). We haven't even discussed the pipes, which I still owe several grand on. However, I will quickly replace any money spent on the pipes from gigs this spring - gigs I cannot play without the pipes and that is one reason I mentioned them as being one of my expenses. My deadline for delivery of the pipes so I can work and record is quickly looming.
These are very economical estimates. Even allowing for a small amount of buffer/emergency money, what I make from KickStarter will not pay for the entire album. Probably far from it. It will however allow me to afford to make the album along with much of the money I earn this year. I CAN promise that the money made from KickStarter (your contributions) will not go into any project of any kind other than this album. It is going into a special savings fund and staying there until amounts are needed for the recording. I am hoping to begin sometime this summer in between tour commitments and hopefully (fingers crossed) have an album out by the end of the year.
Ben, I hope that covers most of the major questions about how the money will be made and where it will go. There are certain small factors that I have not completely locked in this early in the game, but I think that accounts for most if not all of the budget. KickStarter suggest going for the bare minimum needed to fund a project and that is what I have tried to do.
All the best,
Zac
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Flute_boy
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Oh, and Ben (and others), regardless of how much you decide to pledge in the end, your contribution of any amount and faith in the project and me mean a lot. Thanks again to everyone that has helped so far. The friendships I make in this music are a huge part of why I do it, and I am incredibly grateful for the opportunities I have been given to play this music and know such wonderful folks. Many blessings,
Zac
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Flute_boy
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Good on you Zac, and good luck with the whole project.
I think skreech and a few others misunderstand the Kickstarter process and purpose. Don't take their criticisms to heart.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Cheers, Will!
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Flute_boy
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
And by the way, if folks have any questions about the project, they are more than welcome to drop me a line at zacleger@gmail.com.
Best,
Zac
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Flute_boy
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I hope the mustard board chips in a large share of the Kickstarter goal. How often do you get to help an All-Ireland champ record his first solo cd?
Looking forward to the album!
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Ok... Ben's pledge and your response have inspired me to contribute. I hope others will too.
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Tirno
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Zac Leger, thank you for the response! It means the world to me. I love uilleann pipes & hope all goes well with your new set. I'll do my best to motivate my mates to help support the kickstarter project.
Cheers!
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Nice prospectus showing the ROI on your money there. My brain hurts. Good luck Zac!
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Adaven Arreis
I know Preston. When did he start playing left handed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9QTE9G7Kbk
# Posted on January 13th 2011 by Ben Steen
~
Janek, you seem like a real sweetheart. Just give me the word & I'll be happy to chip in in your name.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
they're both left-handed - and their shirts are printed backwards. I always suspected California was a strange vortex
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by airport
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Thanks for the breakdown, Zac. I contributed, and I wish you luck! And I'm sorry I missed you when you were through this area recently!
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by Reverend
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Aggghhhh, you nay sayer people drive me nuts!!!!!
To everyone else, you people rock, and help preserve the beautiful tradition and community that this music lends itself to.
Anyways, just a couple figures for people that think $8200 is a bit high...
A friend of mine, recorded a demo of 3 songs... she had a friend who produced it for FREE, and he also laid down all the tracks (Violin, bass, guitar, drums..) for FREE, and she still had to pay $3500 just for the studio time and engineer. It took a week.
$3500.. for 3 songs... and that's without having to pay extra for musicians or a producer. add the "standard" $100 a track that she would have had to pay for musicians, that's around $1200 extra total, if you add all the instrumental tracks together.
Sooo... that would have come to $4700 for 3 songs.. about $1565 per tracks.
Multiply that by the 12 tracks Zac will most likely have on his cd... That comes to $18,780.00
This is REAL world stuff, if you don't have your own home studio and are not your own studio engineer.
Zac however, is being as conservative as he can be, and trimming costs however possible. I think you guys who are giving him crap and nitpicking every little thing are just complete a-holes.
Zac is honest, generous, hard working, and it really doesn't frackin matter if he is setting a goal of $8,000 or $800,000... You're still getting your dang CD!!! This is for HIS FANS, FRIENDS, AND PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SUPPORT ART AND MUSIC... if you are NOT one of those people, then click your little back arrow, and go on with your arguing on some other thread!!!
Thank you.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by Fiddlinist
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Zac, now that the heat has died down a bit, can we try to get something positive out of all this?
First of all, now that you have clarified the situation regarding the pipes on your Kickstarter page, I have absolutely nothing against that at all, and I don't think anyone else would object to you raising funds in that way.
But when it comes to your post here on thesession.org, I don't know if you watched the thread unfold or not, but if you did, you might have noticed that most of the negative comments came during UK daylight hours, and mostly positive support for you during US daylight. The plain fact is (I think) that attitudes to these things tend to be a bit different on either side of the Atlantic. Here in Britain (as you can see from this thread) a lot of people find it distasteful to see someone asking for money for their own benefit. Maybe it's not entirely logical, but it is how we are brought up.
The illogical bit is that we are usually quite happy to accept people asking for money on someone elses behalf. So if the initial post had been made by someone else - "There's this talented piper I know, who really needs a new set, can you help...." I'm sure there would have been no negative reaction (certainly not from me).
Several people in this thread have queried the difference in reaction to your own and Matt Heaton's Kickstarter requests. Part of that may lie in the level of humility in Matt's request, but I think the real answer lies in the fact that in his post he did not make a direct appeal for money, just asked anyone interested to visit his Kickstarter page. In that way those that aren't interested aren't faced with a direct request for money they don't want to give. That may not seem logical to you, but people feel uncomfortable if they don't respond to a request, so they don't like being put in that position. It's just the way we are brought up.
Anyway, I like to think this might help you next time round, but hopefully the CD will work out , and you won't need to use Kickstarter again.
All the best,
Mark
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by skreech
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Mark - even if the album is successful, it's likely that the next album will need to be funded by some means, so your advice will likely be useful to Mr. Leger in the future.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
You're probably right, but we can always hope that he makes enough off the first to fund the second, or that a label picks him up and gives him an advance... Pah! I'm living in the past.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by skreech
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Yes, you are. Nice place to visit, though.
I don't know that there's a lot of advances being offered these days. I think it would be possible to record this record for a lot less than $8000, but it sounds like he wants a lot of production, which costs money. For a first, "solo" record, I would say you could borrow some decent recording gear and get someone to help you with mic placement, then spend a week playing tunes. Pick three albums' worth of the best material, archive the rest of the raw material, and put together two good albums from what you've selected. Master them both, press one, and hang on to the second for next year. Bam, two solo albums. You've still got mastering and pressing and artwork to pay for, but you've cut it back to about half the cost.
But if you're not actually looking for a solo album, then yeah, you do need to pay musicians and an engineer.
# Posted on January 14th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Guys, thanks again for all of the comments. For Skreech and Jon especially,
Skreech, as far as the pipes go, I have not changed anything on my KickStarter page since the very beginning. The pipes were always mentioned as part of what I was funding. However, as I have said, any money used toward the set will be made back pretty quickly.
I appreciate your comments and I certainly understand where you are coming from. I would also add that many of the US musicians on those board know me personally. Many of the UK musicians may not and I understand that that can certainly make a difference in how you view such a request. I still feel there is a bit of a disconnect in the sense that I really do not feel that I am asking folks to give me money for nothing. Everyone who contributes gets a product, whether it is a CD or added rewards at a higher level of pledging. The only difference between doing it this way and the way some other musicians go about it is that I am using the upfront money for CDs to fund the actual recording and due to that, I will likely make no money whatsoever off of the recording myself (and whatever I may make will probably go into a fund for the next album or to buy the Ramen noodles that I live off of most of the time;). In return a lot of people will get the CD they have asking about for years. If I get anything out of it, it will likely be enough CDs to send out in order to get a few reviews or radio airplay. If folks wish to contribute more than just the cost of a CD I am grateful, but I am not forcing anyone to do so. Matt and Shannon are great players and great folks. I had not realized they had used KickStarter to fund their project and perhaps if I had that would have formed a good template for how I presented my own project. And perhaps it might have been less controversial if someone else had posted about my project here (or if I had asked someone to do so). But that would have felt disingenuous to me. It is my project and my reputation and I feel that it is my responsibility to let people know exactly where their money would be going and what I would do with it and what they would get for their contribution. This is not the only such message board that I have posted to/will post to and the only reason I am doing so is to spread the word. No one has to visit my Kickstarter page or make a pledge. It is entirely up to them.
I expected not everyone would agree with my methods (it is thesession.org) but I think it achieved what I intended which was publicity, plain and simple. I will consider your advice on the actual presentation of the project as I make future posts and I may incorporate some of those suggestions into how I present in the future.
Jon, you are absolutely right. A truly "solo" album could be done a bit cheaper in many respects and I play enough instruments that I could easily do an album entirely on my own. However, I feel that nothing in this music should or can be done in a vacuum. This is a music about people and about playing together in the end. I am looking for a distinct balance between what I can do on my own and the difference it makes to have other players adding their own unique textures and ideas. I am also trying to carefully walk the line between "Hey, look what I can do! I can play all these instruments!" and the more tasteful (to me) "Hey! Listen to this great music!". As such, I have spent the last ten years developing this album, mapping out arrangements and pinning down exactly who would do what, and I think the choices I am making in adding certain players here and there will make a recording of much higher quality than if I were to try and do everything myself. I think those choices will reflect in the concept and feel of this album. Perhaps I may not get a chance to do another solo album for some time (or ever). If that is the case, than I want this release to be as good as I can possibly make it, rather than only half-baked. I don't really see the point in trying, otherwise. Even so, the budget I have worked out is pretty low when compared to most projects. Hope all of that makes sense. And I very much doubt I would use KickStarter again for my own project. I think the website is a great way to get a first project off the ground, but to re-use it for the same idea again would be a bit of an abuse of the system to my way of thinking. I suspect my next album will be very different in tone and will be more about collaborations with other musician friends than a more direct solo effort. Regardless, I suspect that project will be much easier to fund entirely on my own nickel once this freshman album is kicked out.
Anyway, I really do appreciate everyone's comments, good or bad, and I am amazed at how much response I generated. Lest anyone think I am just sitting around waiting for money to roll in, let me assure you that this project has become a full time job for me along with all of the other projects and management I am involved with in the day-to-day quest to make a living playing this stuff. I still have a huge amount of work ahead of me, even assuming the project goes through. As such, I probably will not be following or posting on this thread for a while. As always, if anyone has any questions about me or the project, they can drop me an e-mail at zacleger@gmail.com and I will be happy to get back to them.
God bless,
Zac
# Posted on January 15th 2011 by Flute_boy
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
God, I love this place. Someone tries to start a fund drive so that they can do what they're passionate about, and gets torn to shreds by a bunch of random strangers. Here's a wild idea: if you don't agree with Zac's donation policy, don't donate. I suppose, though, that it seems much more satisfying to list everything that's wrong with Zac and his approach.
I personally say fair play to you, Zac. You've a hell of a lot of talent, and I am in favor of anything that gets me closer to hearing that CD.
# Posted on January 16th 2011 by Zazzaliss
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I think that asking to pay upfront for a CD that's not yet recorded is a bit cheeky, but fair enough really. Though I'm not sure I understand the equating of "nothing in this music can be done in a vacuum" with the insistence that you cannot do a recording of just yourself. It seems a pity that the only kind of music that is contemplated for a recording is ten years of development, mapping out, arranging and pinning down, etc. I suppose it's merely indicative of the modern age, but it seems a shame that ensemble planning usurps personal spontaneity - especially in the context of how expensive it is to record planned ensemble music, compared to a real solo enterprise.
However, asking for donations from strangers to fund the purchase of a musical instrument is outrageous.
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by ...
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Sure it is, Michael, but much of what you say here is considered outrageous as well, wouldn't you say?
Of course I agree with you on this - what's described sounds like a pretty ridiculous production, especially when it's described as a "solo album" - but what the hell, let's see what the guy comes up with.
I'd be more likely to buy a record of good piping without the extras, but maybe marketing to me and people like me isn't a great way to make a living.
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Can you imagine life without outrage? It'd be like spending you waking hours under anesthetic.
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by ...
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Plenty of people do that, though. They seem happy enough, I guess, in a numb sort of way. What would they do without their television and their mePod and their facebook?
They'd have to read a book or something, maybe sing a song for themselves. Can you imagine the trauma?
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Yep. It's no coincidence that the opposite of anesthetic is aesthetic.
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by ...
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Michael is trying to kickstart this thread. Teehee.
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
It's just that I was barred for a couple of weeks
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by ...
Welcome back.
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I guess the popularity of entertainment over engagement confirms that ignorance is indeed bliss. If you ignore as hard as you can, perhaps you can transcend this earthly existence. At least the numbskulls walking around with their ears stopped up staring at a little screen all day seem to be somewhere other than here.
Speaking of transcending, we seem to have transcended the topic of this thread.
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
"ignorance is indeed bliss"?
You trying to transcend the bloody thread onto bodhrans?
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by ...
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
If Zac doesn't make his target, he might have to record that album of solo piping -- just chanter, drones, and regs.
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Good point, Emily. Everybody, stop contributing! Not one more dime!
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
"You trying to transcend the bloody thread onto bodhrans?"
Not at all - bodhrans are neither entertaining nor engaging.
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Some years ago a young Dublin fiddler was seeking to obtain a Raleigh volunteer scholarship. In order to do this he had to raise €5000 for charity and hit upon the idea of recording an album of solo fiddling. (My memory's going. €5000 might not have been the exact sum, but it's a nice round figure in terms of the story.)
The album was recorded in the stairwell of the Irish Traditional Music Archive's old building in Merrion Square with Glenn Comiskey acting as engineer - a pleasant echoic situation (so no need for reverb).
Five hundred copies of the album were subsequently issued and almost all were sold to those who'd previously pledged support, covering not only the required €5000, but the costs of mastering and duplicating the album.
Said album is listed here - http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1880 - and I'm one of the lucky ones who obtained a copy (though CÓR gave it to me after he'd already reached his financial target).
In other words, there are many ways of raising money to fund an album, but more than a little of me prefers the road that Caoimhín took.
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
What's wrong with using KickStarter? It seems to be one, of not so many, means for artists & musicians to find funds. Zac Leger may have approached his project differently, but "What is wrong with KickStarter?"
# Posted on January 20th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I don't thing there's anything wrong with KickStarter. But to use it to buy an instrument is astonishing.
Buthow a bout this for a compromise? After Zac's made his record, he should donate the pipes to another piper who is yet to make a record. And they should donate the pipes after their record .... etc.
# Posted on January 21st 2011 by ...
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I doubt that would be a fair compromise since Zac will pay for most of the price of the pipes with money other than those from KickStarter contributions>
# Posted on January 21st 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
OK, he could lend the pipes to another piper who is yet to make a record.
# Posted on January 21st 2011 by ...
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
I wanted to make a comment in relation to the discussion that seems to be developing about the recording in terms of what truly "solo" means. Allow me to give an example: Brian Finnegan recently released his new solo album. I know for a fact that Brian planned out that album for some time before recording. He made very considered choices about who would play with him. There are at least 20 backing musicians on his album. And it is both an intensely personal recording and a gorgeous CD. All of his backing choices add a wonderful but subtle texture to the arrangements. Despite this, Brian is (nearly) always front and center and you could never mistake it for anything other than a Brian Finnegan solo album. Now, I don't want to create the impression that I plan to copy Brian or anyone else. I don't. But I am more than simply a piper, or simply a flute player or simply a guitarist, etc. Different aspects of this album will reflect different interests while still (I hope) sounding cohesive. Now, I love albums that are completely solo; say, one set of pipes, nothing more. Some of the tracks on this CD will reflect that very traditional approach. However, that is not the only sort of sound that I am interested in. In the end, any album you record is a snapshot of where you are at THAT particular time and shows where you have been. Because this CD has been so long in coming, it has been both a life and a musical journey. A LOT of people along the way have helped to shape who I have become as a musician so far and I also want to capture some of the sounds and ideas that that journey represents. So one track, for instance, will include members of one of the first bands I ever played in, back in Eastern Tennessee. They are great musicians all and that and other tracks may include hints of the bluegrass and old timey music of the mountains where I grew up. It won't BE bluegrass or old time, but there will be influences. Other tracks will be completely solo. As I said, I am seeking a balance. I don't want this album to be purely focused on my "statement" about the music. I want it to just be good music! Certainly solo spontaneity can and will happen, but, for me anyway, nothing beats the energy and spontaneity that occur when you add other players (especially those you have worked with for years). My hope is to capture both elements on this recording. I suspect the next album will be much less planned. This may not be where every musician is coming from, but it IS where I am coming from. And a lot of the friends and fans I have described the project to have been very excited to hear it. Heck, I am excited to finally hear it!
As far as the pipes go, it really amazes me that some folks don't actually read posts and then comment on them. As I have mentioned, the final cost of the pipes will come entirely out of my pocket. It is simply a problem of timing. I have to play piping gigs in the spring and summer. I need to pay for them now in order to have them. Thus, some of the initial cost will come out of the KickStarter project. I should add that the pipes are more than half paid for at this point (by me). After the tours, that money will be replaced in the CD fund. I hope that clears any misconceptions up. It is looking more and more like it was silly to even mention the pipes, but it felt dishonest not to, especially if a breakdown of expenses was requested by potential pledgers (which it was). And, to finally answer a couple folks who have suggested borrowing a set for recording: please do not take offense, but I suspect you are not pipers. One set of pipes (even by the same maker) varies so much as to be a completely different instrument to play. Your pipes need to fit you and you need to know what pressure to use for every note. It needs to be an extension of your body and soul. Takes a long time to get there. This is the reason I sold my old set. It was good and served me well for 12 years, but I was ready to rise to a new level and take my playing higher with a set built to my specs. Every advantage you can have with an already incredibly difficult and high maintenance instrument helps. It is also another aspect of getting the best possible recording that I can. The idea of a "pay it forward" set is really cool, but would be difficult to maintain, I think. I have at times had a loaner practice set or extra chanter for students who wanted to learn, though. I hope I can get back to that point again someday in the future.
Anyway, I suppose if folks want the album, they will pledge and if they don't they won't! Thanks again for all of the comments and interest, and I really do mean that, both the supporters and the naysayers. It has certainly raised a lot of fascinating discussions and thoughts.
Well, it is back to work for me! All the best, everyone!
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by Flute_boy
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
It isn't silly to explain, & understand, how funding is to be used.
Cheers!
# Posted on January 22nd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Ben,
I didn't mean to imply that posting a breakdown of expenses was a silly idea, that was a good call on your part.
Just that even mentioning the pipes might have been an extra wrinkle that wasn't necessary in regards to the project. Ah, well. It certainly has kept this thread going and people talking!
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by Flute_boy
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
You're a good sport, Zac. I'm sure you're more than ready to play those pipes.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Zac, don't apologise for being honest or question if honesty was the right approach when you started the thread.
I may not be a supporter of your method, as stated above, but the fact that you were straight from post 1 means that your personal integrity was never an issue for me, just the method I'm not in agreement with.
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by Solidmahog
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Ben and Solidmahog, I appreciate it very much!
# Posted on January 23rd 2011 by Flute_boy
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Sorry, you're not asking strangers to pay for your pipes, you're asking strangers to lend you some cash for your pipes. And you'll pay them back with a CD.
What I don't understand though, is if it's such a sure fire investment, why doesn't the bloke who's making the pipes just give you them now? If you've already paid half, and the rest of the dosh is guaranteed through the gigs you have coming up, surely he'd let you have the pipes now?
And the point about why not a real solo recording is not about comparing the merits of that against a complicated arranged mix of many musicians, it was simply comparing the cost of it. Something which should be important to you, as you clearly can't afford the latter.
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by ...
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Michael Gill, perhaps you should call up Zac Leger on the phone & explain your concerns more directly?
# Posted on January 24th 2011 by Ben Steen
KickStarter project ~ Chop,chop!
I pledge, if the current total of $3,775 reaches
$7,550 by Wednesday Feb 9, 8:26pm EST, I will add $195 to my previous contribution (total $250).
Zac, please promise you will never write a tune in my name. If you must write a tune & upload it on YouTube dedicate it to one of my favourite haunts, The Mustard Bar & Grill. However, I do like those 7/8 tunes in an odd key.
;)
# Posted on February 5th 2011 by Ben Steen
KickStarter countdown ....
The suspense was killing me. Zac, you're an inspiration!
# Posted on February 7th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Zac Leger solo album KickStarter project; uilleann pipes, flute, guitar, etc.
Hi everyone,
Haven't checked back here in some time; my apologies. Obviously the Kickstarter project itself did not got through, but a lot of really wonderful people pitched in their pledges and donations and a considerable amount was still raised. My grateful to thanks to everyone involved. It will still be a tremendous boost to the project and I plan to keep going until the album is finished! If anyone is still interested in supporting the CD, I am still taking donations and pre-orders, but privately, either through Paypal or check. If you are interested, please contact me at zacleger@gmail.com. If you are not, no worries, I completely understand. This has been an amazing experience and it only promises to get more exciting!
God bless,
Zac
# Posted on March 2nd 2011 by Flute_boy