I've used the Amazing Slowdowner for several years. Recently, tunes have mysteriously dropped off the tune list. The reply to my inquiry regarding the problem informs me that I need to upgrade, and will be relieved of $30.00 to do so. I paid $45.00 for the original. In this day and age of free and low-cost apps, and free upgrades, Roni music must be hurting.
The free VLC Media Player (latest version is 1.1.5 of Nov 13, 2010) will, at your command, slow down or speed up in real time whatever audio or video file you're playing without changing pitch. Look for a small panel with "1.00x" in it at the bottom right-hand corner of the VLC window.
Quick download from http://www.videolan.org in Windows or Mac version (versions for other platforms are available). VLC plays and streams almost all audio or video formats and uses its own internal codecs.
VLC may be writing its own codecs in a "clean room*" because that is one way to avoid infringement problems and/or the necessity to pay licence fees. Further, with its codecs completely under its control it is in a position to upgrade them very quickly as the market changes without waiting for other manufacturers to move.
*"clean room" an office (usually) where a designer or programmer is instructed to design something or to write code to do a specific job but is not allowed to see how others (i.e. competitors) have solved the problem. If he comes up with very similar code on his own then he clearly hasn't copied. Naturally, all this needs to be done under careful control and documentation. I've seen it in operation in an industry I used to work in.
I had a similar issue when I moved ASD to a new computer about a year ago. On the new machine, the player kep crashing for no apparent reason. I wasn't keen on paying more for a new version either. Time to look at the free one - thanks for the link.
If I find a difficult tune - I record it off the Internet Spotify example edit and make recording into Mp3 Audacity example, and learn it by slowing it down in window's media player - Total cost , Nothing ..
How I learnt this one - Slow first then fast -
jim,,,
Fiddle4. I appreciate your contributions to this forum, you are one of the best people here. You are exceptionally helpful. and I have no doubt that you are a splendid bloke. And I know that I'm laying myself open to ridicule because I don't post examples of my playing. But I think your timing is not very good.
Amazing Slow Downer hasn't been giving me any bother.
Bogman (and EB, and Llig) you know I appreciate your argument against slow down software but I still maintain that it has its uses so long as you are aware of its limitations.
A real live person slowing down a tune so you can learn it is likely to mess up the timing as well. Then you say, "Well, if they're a great player, they won't do that."
Okay...you're trying to learn this music. You're not yet at a point where you can hear intervals perfectly at 95mph. Would be nice, but not a fecking chance. You can't learn from dots, slow down software, slowing down a tape or LP which does weird things to pitch and timing as well, or a real live musician who can't keep perfect time whilst slowing down a single phrase of a tune. What the f*ck are you supposed to do?
I know its not much good on that one - I only just learnt in that week - But heres one I played years now - I think is not bad if I could keep it that way ....
Learning a tune at speed is not easy, it isn't meant to be easy!!
Dont play outwith your limitations / technique / choice of tune etc
Break the tune down which doesnt mean slow the tune down to the extent of using ASD etc
Develop your own timing, you listen to the tune and slow it down in your head at a pace tempo you are comfortable with
By all means challenge yourself but do it gradually
Listen to a tune at speed in stages ie 2 bars / 4 bars etc
If you switch off your PC and listen to tunes on tape or CD etc
and practice with your instrument, you'll be amongst thousands of other trad musicians who learned the same way
before the internet appeared
Obviously playing with other musicians is important, finding a teacher might be beneficial but remember lots of good trad musicians are also self taught so don't discount it
Well, in fairness a lot of musicians in the pre-internet age learned from other musicians, who may have slowed down the tune well. Or poorly. I doubt many of the old dudes and the new dudes who are all really good are entirely self-taught.
I also like the fact that ASD can be programmed to loop sections of a track, which is useful for tricky bits even if you don't slow it down at all. That's like asking your pal, "How does that bit go?" iTunes doesn't do that. And to learn from a tape player, I'd have to sit in my car. Trying to play the pipes while hunched up and freezing in any seat in the car sucks spectacularly.
BTW, I know this because I briefly lived in a building where the neighbours would angrily pound on your door even if you played a whistle, at noon, with bluetac over the fipple muting the sound. Needless to say, the pipes went over like a lead balloon so I used to try to practice in the car. Didn't hack off the neighbours, but it was hard bloody work and you'd think, "these rolls and triplets would be better if I could still feel my fingers."
TheSilverSpear --
< I doubt many of the old dudes and the new dudes who are all really good are entirely self-taught. >
I am not sure about the really good bit but, which one to choose here - lol.. I'll go for the truth,
I'm one of those old dudes who's entirely self-taught. I heard Belfast fiddler Andy Dickson play one day and decided, that's want I want to do. I went to some old guy's houses to learn tunes etc,,, But I learned the instrument and most of the tunes, In my own tiny room in my mums house - And back then I hated learning one to one, I got to nervous messed up and could not remember the tune anyway - lol.
I like you learned The Instrument by watching, and asking player's like Gerry O'Connor Fiddle Question's - All my tune learning was LP's, 4 track tape's, or recording off Radio RTE .. Long Note program's etc. Until the Internet came along.
jim,,,
Perfect time to switch over to using "Transcribe" from Seventh String Software, my preferred slower-downer for both audio and video on Windows and Mac.
Knowing how to differentiate is important. I listen to & pick up on tunes from a number of sources. I don't really slow down tunes, but I don't begrudge those who; do especially those who are aware of it's limitations.
imho, just enjoy yourself & learn & play however you want. Whichever method you have has limitations. Ultimately a tune is learnt & really becomes music in the playing, not the learning.
I've nothing but respect for players who can play the tunes well, learn every last one of them in session, never practice, & play the tunes well. All 3 of you.
I used to slow down tapes to learn some of the more tricky tunes, before computers took over.
Software just makes it easier and more practical, so that's what I use now.
There's nothing wrong with slowing down tunes to learn, If you know what you are doing. When you can play the tune slowly you gradually build up speed, and eventually play along with the original tempo of the recording.
The slowing down is just to pick up every single note, it's just the beginning of the process. When you have the tune in your head is when the real work starts. Then you can think of timing, articulation (yes, articulation) and ornaments.
And I did and still do sometimes learn tunes at real speed, but I don't feel that it is any better, honestly.
Hey, It might be different for everyone, that's just the way it is for me.
You're assuming that you have to have your pipes with you. But I think that's a lot of the problem with the way people round here seem to want to learn tunes - they're too impatient to get on and put the thing on their instrument. If you're learning from CDs, tapes or whatever (not as good as learning from real live people but can be OK) then try *not* attempting it on your instrument until you've got the tune in your head. Be able to sing it first.
Once you can sing a tune, and if you know your instrument to even a basic level, you should be able to just play it on your instrument. Job done. And it doesn't matter how long it takes you to be able to sing the tune. That bit could be 10 minutes, a week, a month or even longer. But, once you can sing it, it should be *instant* to be able to play it on your instrument. And I mean, instant. (For you, TSS, if you can't do it straight away on pipes, then play it on whistle first.)
"What you have to realise when you slow a recording down with a computer is that you destroy the timing."
I know what you mean but I don't think it's entirely like that. Given the state of the art of the technology I would assume that the software does a very accurate job of rendering the audio information at a slower tempo. However, the timing is something that our brains reconstruct from that audio information, in much the same way as we perceive repeating patterns when we look at a piece of wallpaper. The perception of that timing will involve a degree of averaging-out across the players in the ensemble and across the music itself. Slow the audio down too much and your brain starts to find it harder to do that.
I can't see a problem in slowing the music right down in order to find exactly what notes are being played. As for playing along, well here we run up against another piece of llig advice, correct in my opinion, that you should never play a piece of music faster than you can manage. So taking these two pieces of advice together would imply that you would never be able play along with a recording until you can play it adequately well at full lick.
For myself as an intermediate player, playing along to recordings is something I really enjoy doing and which I feel benefits my playing. So, I will often do that at 95% speed for which I find the timing stays fairly well intact. Occasionally for a really fast tempo I will play along at 90%, for which the timing is compromised but, heck, life is full of compromises. Mixed in with other playing-along at 100% I personally don't think that will neccessarily harm your ability to develop a good feel for the music.
Let's say you have a recording of a reel played at 100 beats per minute, a steady pace but convenient for the maths. If you set your slowdowner software to speed 95% then it will play it back at 95 bpm. Slow it down too much and it won't sound like a reel at all.
FWIW I'm with TSS and johndsamuels on this. Except that I use Audacity and sometimes allow myself 85% for playing along.
In particular I have not found any tutorial-type recordings where a tune is played slowly in a way that I find more use than slowing down the fast version. I think the main gain from learning a tune directly from (or with) someone is not to do with timing, that its to do with the way that situation forms associations, and that a short break for an anecdote or mouthfull of beer gives time for things to sink in.
Crossed, that's what I understood. At my stage playing a jig at 95 pbm using the same basic articulations I would want at 105 bpm seems to help a lot. In fact, I would aim to practice it at 95 bpm solo if the local session usually played it at more like 105. It comes from being selective about the advice one gets on the internet
I'm a pretty slow reader. It takes me a long time to read a book (much longer than the missus, for example). But I like to get to grips will all the nuances of language. If I tried to read at the same speed as my wife all I would get would be the very bare bones of the story without any of the ornamentation and character development.
If I have to stop reading a book for a while I might reread a section when I go back to it. But I'll read it quicker than before because it's familiar to me.
Part of my job involves making fairly accurate transcriptions of fiddle and guitar playing. I do that by listening very carefully. Sometimes though I'll use Transcribe (as mentioned above by Michael Eskin) for bits I'm having trouble hearing at full speed. I don't see anything wrong in that and it doesn't affect the timing one iota.
Try using your slowdown software on some speech and you'll understand straight away what I'm on about. Listen for how the vowels don't change much, but the consonants sound nothing like they should. The Bs, Cs and Ds especially.
When you speak at different speeds the articulation of the Bs, Cs and Ds doesn't really change much. Try it: "The cat sat on the mat". Say the word "Cat" as fast as you can, then say it as slow as you can. What does the C sound like?
The same thing happens with the music. You might think you are able to get the notes of a tune more accurately, but spend any time at all listening to a mechanically slowed down version, even as little as 95% and you are exposing yourself to horrid distortions of articulation which consciously or subconsciously will appear in your playing.
Is the difference in articulation between the same tune played at 100% and 95% more or less than that between a fiddle and the pipes playing the same tune ? Or, if slowing down speech, between two different people saying "the cat sat on the mat" ?
Reminds me of "The man who fell to Earth". The authorities catch the alien by following a trail of gold sovereigns he's been spending that are perfect in every way, except that they are 96%. Along with his passport, they were manufactured from only ever seeing them on telly.
Ethical, learning to sing the tune seems like an extra step. Fine if you can't play but if you can, it seems more straightforward to put it on your instrument if you can. Anyway, when I lived in anti-music building, I needed the hours playing the pipes as I was a pretty useless player in those days.
Michael, presumably you're not trying to learn how to play articulations (or ornaments) from the slowed down recording. If you know how the tunes *should* sound and understand the limitations of the slowed down recording, I don't see any harm in using the slowdown software. I have friends who learned to play when LPs were still popular (they are very old ) and they used to learn tunes by slowing down the record. Now that distorts the sound. Slow down software does an appreciably better job.
And considering you haven't heard me play in about four years, you have no idea if the "horrid distortions" are appearing in my playing.
I've heard recordings of Mike Eskin that he's put on the web and he doesn't sound like a slowed down recording even though he admitted to using Transcribe.
llig. I was a ware that was probably a short answer to Theirlandais so maybe I shouldn't have been picky.
But sometimes it seems the that the underlying assumption is that people learning from recordings, or playing along with them, are all apeing their heros like some wanabbee popsinger practicing for a karaoke night.
Being able to sing the tune "seems like an extra step". I can see how it might look like that, but I don't think so. I think it *is* the step that's required. If you can sing it you can play it. The beauty of it is that, done this way, you won't have practised all the wrong ways and potential bad habits. You just go straight to the tune on your instrument.
It is different when you are first learning your instrument, I think. But then, for learners, it's surprising - ask a learner, one who is now reasonably proficient, to play something they learnt before they had any proficiency with their instrument. You'll find that they will play it with all the faults they had at the stage of their development that they learnt the tune. It can then be difficult to iron out those faults for that particular tune. It strikes me that you don't want to perpetuate this condition indefinitely, so, at least IMO, it's better to know the tune first ... then play it.
I agree. Knowing the tune first is not an extra step at all. The extra steps, the damaging ones, are the ones where you flail around on your instrument trying to get it right by trial and error.
I don't disagree with you, really. I just think people get too dogmatic about The One True Way to learn Irish music. You have a perfectly valid approach, one I even use sometimes. I also will just transfer tunes directly from laptop to pipes -- sometimes mediated through slow downer and sometimes picked up at speed.
Now, why do Irish say tree and not three, was it due to the excessive speed of the music, English as a second language or were the ears too slow.
I used to play 33s at 78s, now that was an ExxxxPPerieeeeeence but seeing as it was Joe Burke at the time it nearly made it normal.. but I only really used it, to count notes and their relationship to each other.
There's a world of difference between "One True Way" and the best way. "One True Way" is pure dogma, where as "the best way" is formed from experience and pragmatism.
The problem with what people perceive as short cuts is that in the long run, they never are.
eb. I read your "play it with all the faults they had at the stage of their development" and know that I have just that problem with the Blackthorn Stick and the Kesh.
Its not simple though - I know that I learned the Blackthorn stick from the dots, on whistle, before I ever heard it played and I know I learned the the Kesh by ear without ever seeing the dots. When I did get a recording of the Blackthorn Stick it was followed by the Kesh. One day I just carried on playing by accident. But that was on mandolin and I only recently recognised the problem - on flute.
So I am inclinded to think it is a 'learner' thing rather than direcly related to method. Or maybe related to using just one aural source that got burned into my head.
Yes, I can see that, David. I think it's probably inevitable in any case in the early stages of learning an instrument. The trick is not to keep doing it once you've built up the physical proficiency.
After posting that it occurred to me that there may be two different problems. On the Blackthorn Stick it is mainly whistle breathing that is too ingrained, on Kesh it is mandolin things in place of rolls.
Its only slighlty off topic though - I think change in articulations due to 10% speed difference is lost in the noise of all the other stuff going on. Its not as if I am trying to match Matt Molloy or Harry Bradley's articulations - some hope !
Did anyone realise that 33 + 45 = 78, now that's weird
Ethical, So those 12" vinyls, which as far as my memory serves me were 33s, how did I play them slower, I don't remember using my tongue to slow down the turn table... was there by any chance a 16 setting ???!?
I don't use Transcribe for the videos I post, I just play the tunes slowly. I'd never use Transcribe that way.
I use Transcribe to practice tunes from recordings or videos where the tempo is a bit too fast for me to play at first. I generally isolate the A and B parts with markers, then play them looped at 50 to 70% speed until I have them nailed, then slowly increase the speed to 100%.
Llig - I don't see slowing a tune down as a shortcut. Certainly for a beginner who's brain and ears are not up to learning tunes at normal speed yet, slowing a tune down is a perfectly viable way to at least hear the melody clearly and absorb it.
Your suggestion is that the timing would be off - perhaps initially, but you can always progress with that as you increase the speed and familiarity.
Seriously though I can't imagine how you would begin learning a tune unless you already knew how it went, in your head. That doesn't take long. For some tunes you might be humming along almost straight away. Why would you want to learn a tune if you didn't already have it in your head? How would you know if you liked it or not?
I am not going to be a hypocrite. I have Transcribe. I have used it to learn tunes and have found it useful. I have found it to be both cheaper and better than ASD. It is right that there is more than one way to learn a tune, just like there is more than one way to do anything but you always need to be mindful of how a different approach will effect your playing of the tune.
If you learn a tune to speed then it is harder to hear every individual note so you listen more to the phrasing of the tune to the peaks and troughs and to how the tune flows. As you get it under your fingers it will, hopefully, begin to fit the tune you should have in your head. For some talented b*st*rds (one in particular springs to mind) you will be able to play that tune by the 2nd time of hearing it and by the 3rd time round it sounds like you have been playing it all your life. For others it will take longer. Cest la vie.
If you use ASD/Transcribe/whatever to slow a tune down then the danger is you are just listening for the next note and then the next and then the next, and you pay less attention to the phrasing and the flow. Unless you have the tune firmly in your head then that is surely going to mess with your timing - unless you are very careful.
Well yes, if all you did was work with slowed down and distorted versions of tunes to learn from, you would probably end up sounding funny, and if all you did was look at dots or over relied on them you'd end up sounding funny too. If you learned all your tunes from a more experienced player with timing issues, or intonation problems or whatever, you'd probably end up with the same issues too.
Seriously, if you haven't listened to the tunes enough to be able to hum, sing or croak them, you'll probably end up sounding funny too. But if you are figuring out tunes you've heard many times but are wondering about that exact sequence of notes in one little spot or something, how silly to think that sorting it through an amazing invention like a slow downer, or a willing player/tutor who'll slow down the passage for you will suddenly send you straight to the hopelessly bad player club.
Judicious use of helpful aides can contribute to the pursuit of musicality, like a pinch of cloves can add flavour to some recipes but you wouldn't replace flour with cloves and expect to get anything edible.
Balance is the issue and a little common sense.
Slowing down doesn't just affect the tune you're learning but the whole way you listen to and hear traditional music. Using that technique just means you cheat yourself.
Is it? So once you've learned to hear the tunes properly at full speed will you stop using it?
The usual line is, "I can't hear the intervals at full speed". So would it be fair to say if you can hear the intervals a full speed maybe you might be able to hear the tunes better, learn tunes faster?
I've always been against it mainly for the cheating yourself argument. I have softened my attitude after conversations with folk because I realise people like a tune and want to play it with other folk. In that context I think ok fair enough, but the problem is folk seem to rely on it. It seems once you use it you see it as a 'tool' and use it from then on. It's your ears that are the tools and you're cheating them be at least not trying to learn tunes at full speed. But it seems pointless reasoning because folk seem to be in denial that learning tunes at full speed is any sort of advantage
I hear what you are saying bogman, and I agree with you actually. I can't think a person would enjoy listening to a slowed down version of a tune for very long. If you don't have the tune in your head from hearing it really well played many times, where would the desire to learn it come from anyway?
However, are you saying that using some way of slowing down even a little bit of a part of a tune that needs closer examination a couple of times in order explore a detail more thoroughly before resuming life at normal speed would cause ruination?
I don't slow them down first. I slow them down after they are already mostly in my head and I have decided to learn the tune because I like it. Then I just slow it down to get every note. All I'm doing is to ensure I get the melody properly.
I follow a method similar to Gallowglass'. I used to rely on Slow Downer far more than I do now but after several conversations with bogman, mainly, have tried to get off it to a degree. I still use it slowed down minimally on tricky sections of a tune. It's a useful tool.
It can be used to learn how to hear tunes at full speed. You just slowly decrease the amount you slow the tune down. Is that cheating? I don't think so. If software like this hadn't been available, learning tunes when I first learned to play would have been a feckin' nightmare. You'd probably turn to the sheet music and that's worse!
I appreciate bogman's point about continued reliance on various devices. I also appreciate the pragmatic experience of those who either don't use learning aids or have used them in the past but don't now.
Gallowglass, your approach brings it back to something similar to having someone play the tune at speed to get it into your head 1st, & then slowing it down; or playing the phrases. It's different from picking up everything at speed, but how many players do pick up everything at speed?
@ NCFA: in case you were serious - you have to be able to sing in your head. But you answered your own question. Anyway, I've heard you sing. You have a truly fantastic voice - almost unbelievable.
This hearing every note business - hinted at by NCFA but stated outright and fairly strongly by Gallowglass: honestly, I hear every single note better if I hear the tune at speed than if it's slowed down. I have slight issues with that (which I get over ) when I go to classes at summer schools and the like. Takes me a while afterwards to sort of re-translate to be able to hear the whole tune. That just doesn't happen if I hear the whole tune at speed and learn it that way.
@ Gallowglass: "Then I just slow it down to get every note". Taking bogman's point, if you routinely listened to tunes at speed and learnt from them that way, you'd hear every note at speed. That'd be a useful skill, wouldn't it? I find it useful ...
I didn't say that. I said "if you routinely listened to tunes at speed and learnt from them that way, you'd hear every note at speed". Gallowglass said he "slow[s] it down to get every note".
I'm willing to go to the dark side. I just called a man who I'm going to meet in an alley at midnight. He's an IV off his slowdowner straight into a vein. Who's brave enough to give me the names of the fastest, trickiest tunes ever recorded (I keep reading about Gordon Duncan ~ haven't heard him). I plan to get my money's worth.
TSS, I don't mean cheating in that context, that suggests cheating as in cards. I mean depriving your ears of what they capable of.
And it's yourself that convinced me that the software can be used in a good way - providing folk do what you do, which is work towards learning at full speed. It just seems too many people see it as a permanent 'tool', and can't or don't want to appreciate what the naked ear is capable of given your help.
e.b., there's more than a few players learning everything at speed & saying they are getting everything right & they're not. How do you suss out who is who when it comes to reading what's posted? If you say you're getting everything at speed I trust you to be honest. So, I'm not asking you to prove anything. But on the whole do you think that's always the case?
I do listen to tunes routinely, at normal speed needless to say. And have been doing so for many years, from recordings and live musicians, sessions, whatever. Almost too much so. I have a very good idea of what the music sounds like normally. So slowing down a recording is not going to spoil all my years of listening and playing. And I also said before in this thread that I also sometimes learn from normal speed. It's about being flexible.
I'm enjoying this thread. It would have been a very boring evening without it. Thanks guys, I wish we could get together right now and play a few tunes. But not too fast please.
I didn't say it would spoil anything, Gallowglass. I just made the point that, if you didn't rely on slowing things down, you might end up with a skill that's pretty useful. Bogman's point, in fact.
Ben - no, it's not always the case. In my experience, however, it is often the case that people whom I've met who have claimed to learn their tunes using slowdowner software generally have worse listening skills and are therefore either more oblivious or less relaxed and participative than they should be in a session situation. People will sometimes say things like "Well, it's OK for you - you have a great ear. For me ..." and they sigh. I'm suggesting that they have the cause and effect round the wrong way.
I think my improving ability to pick things up at speed has a lot to do with recognising things that are similar to something my fingers have done before. When learning tunes I sometimes use the slow downer (and stop starter) software to check that I really do have something right if I am not sure, or when something is so unfamiliar that I am bashing my head against a wall doing wrong things and I decide it is time to be 'told the answer'. In that situation I won't be singing it right either. It is one way of improving my ear.
I think most people have to train their ears to be able to hear every note of a tune flying past at full speed. Maybe a beginner from a background where they were immersed in the music can hear the tunes from the outset, but those of us from musically deprived backgrounds have to find our way the best we can, using whatever tools are available.
I think in general terms for me, the slowed down version represents somewhere in the region of 5% of my listening time when learning a tune, I'm confident the 95% will dominate the 5%, so I now need to continue my search for the root cause, for a moment there, I thought I had an answer..
This evening I'm working on a hornpipe, "Fly by Night", I made sure I watched a Formula 1 race beforehand, just to make sure I had the right level of Doppler coming into the tune.
this is the only thread I've seen for a while where everyone is right...
You're saying the ear is improved if you watch cars driving around a track really fast before learning a tune? Gotta try that one. Might be viewed as a crutch, though.
Bit of a rant ~ comes from mixing beer on top of coffee
Here's my pedantry. The Silver Spear, I agree, "most people have to train their ears to be able to hear every note of a tune flying past at full speed." But you're only referring to the melody. Which yes that which constitutes a pitch varies depending on the instrument, overtones, musette ... but essentially it's the melody, the intervals, higher & lower bits. Or as llig says, "that's the easy bits"
Now I'm on thin ice here. Which is why I'm meeting my man at midnight, to find out for myself. But until then, is the usefulness of The Amazing SlowDowner primarily to suss out the easy bits; i.e. ~ the melody?
I mean it cannot help with the timing or the articulation, maybe some phrasing, though I don't understand how it would be better than simply picking that up at speed.
... just curious. I'll actually be safely tucked in come midnight. ;)
Full disclosure here. I have a media player which I use when woodshedding on a new tune. It's The KM Player & one of the older skins has an A - B repeat right on the screen. I mark the phrase I want to learn & it loops.
I have a CD player which changes pitch. I haven't used it in years, but it came in handy for learning tunes for songs when one of our singers sang in a different key from the recording.
Is that a general question or part of a conversation Ben ? Anyhow, for me slowing down when learning (as opposed to playing along) is usually for a few beats worth of tune in which the density of information is greater than would normally be notated in a tune book. Say a puzzling melodic twist mixed up with some twiddly bits.
ASD doesn't teach you articulation. It's pretty sh*t at teaching phrasing as well. It's basically like a roadmap to the tune: it shows you where to go but doesn't teach you how to drive.
The 1st thing I learned when playing by ear is don't suss out the same note. There is a tendency to always be expecting an interval. But, with all the different ways to articulate rhythm (& thinking articulation is the same as ornamentation, or embellishment) you try (too hard) to think you need to play more notes than there are in the melody.
Of those dismissing ASD and Transcribe as useful tools, I'd be curious how many have actually used either one and then decided to stop using them, vs. those who just have a strong opinion about the subject, but no actual experience. How about some full disclosure here?
I agree, at some level of slowdown, you lose the phrasing, but generally, that's during the "what order are these notes in" phase for me of learning a tune, anything below about 70% is for me a physical memorization skill, then as I bring the speed up you can hear the flow and phrasing. These aren't monolithic tools, its the flexibility of Transcribe that, at least for how my brain works, allows me to set speeds just a tiny bit faster than I'm able to play to slowly push me toward the goal of playing tunes up to speed. I find this particularly useful on instruments that completely unforgiving of errors, in particular the Anglo concertina.
Somebody mentioned this recently and it bears repeating. The melody isn’t necessarily the easy part for everybody. My brain tends to record elements like harmony, rhythmic articulations and stylistic nuances very quickly, but might stumble repeatedly over a slightly quirky melodic phrase. That may be because a lot of my early musical experience involved accompanying songs that often had to be learned very quickly.
That said, I’ve used slowdown software only once that I recall.
Exactly, everybody has a different style of learning, but that seems to get lost in these discussions. I would say that someone who has phrasing issues learning using ASD or Transcribe, probably has phrasing issues learning any other way and probably needs to get coaching from a teacher, as they may not have the distinctions in listening required to hear the phrases. Again, the problem isn't the tool, it's in how it's used.
Puzzling melodic twists. If I know what you're referring to Dave, & I'm thinking mostly reels, I would never slow them down. 1st off hornpipes don't have puzzles, they just make you think they do. I prefer most hornpipes at a moderate tempo in any case. But the reels which might seem to be puzzling aren't. Play them at speed. It's the only way. If they don't fall under your fingers it's probably because you're not comfortable with your instrument; not because you're not familiar with the tune ~ though that could be part of the problem. I guess what I'm saying is it's too neasy to turn something into gibberish by trying to dissect it, when it can be so much more fulfilling to be in the moment & go for it. If it seems exotic ~ you haven't listened enough for the tune to get inside. Keep listening, & put down the scalpel.
DJF, the main advantage of the apps are that they can:
1) Set markers and selection areas so you can loop a section of a tune.
2) Adjust tempo and pitch independently, which is great for playing along with out-of-tune recordings or historical recordings that may have been in non-concert pitch tunings, like Eb.
3) Can export slowed-down/pitch-adjusted versions of the selection in .WAV format that you can then transcode to .MP3 and put back on your MP3 player to take with you to practice on the road (using the single track looping feature of your player) or distribution to your session buddies who want to learn the same tune.
I find Transcribe to be incredibly useful. Some people don't. You can download a free 30 day eval copy for Windows, Mac, or Linux from the Seventh String Software website and decide for yourself.
"The problem isn't the tool" Are you sure? Some of the tools are coming out faster than most people using them have an opportunity to determine what might be their problems. I mentioned a CD player which changes pitch, but is perhaps considered obsolete by your typical newbie. It was state of the art not so long ago.
Ben, these days I can normally play a problem phrase if I run over it a few times and sing it in my head. But if I get it wrong at the stage of first learning the tune, and what I do play sounds reasonable, I am likely to notice only when I start trying to play along with the source and there is some sort of clash. I don't think what is stored in my head for a tune is a string of notes.
Sounds like a argument along the lines of "Back when I was a boy, we didn't need no stinking slower-downer computer thingies, we learned our tunes the old way, by having our fathers beat them into us with a willow tree stick..."
Sorry, David not Dave. I'm with you. With me it's actually singing out loud. I just need to be sure no one can hear me. Plenty of Irish tunes (reels) get quite notey. I may be wrong about this but, they work.* And yes our brains do work differently, but we're all going for the same thing. The tune played up to speed, with others in a session, & played with confidence. The only question is how to get there.
I do agree that nobody should try to learn this music in a vacuum, and I'm not advocating use of software over coaching by an experienced instructor.
At the end of the day, if I'm sitting next to someone at a session and they are playing lovely tunes with gorgeous phrasing and effortless variation, I don't care if they learned directly from a master, from the internet, using Transcribe, or if they printed out the dots from session.org, soaked the ink off the paper and took the tune internally as a high-colonic.
While others here have met players with issues who use slower-downers, I have yet to meet someone who's playing didn't improve after adding them to their practice tools. If nothing else, the use of the repeated sections feature in these apps forces one to play with constant rhythm, like a metronome with consequences.
Again, just my experience having used Transcribe since 1999.
The drive to push software results in stable & beta releases. When a stable release is submitted it doesn't mean there aren't bugs. The driving force in development is to catch the bugs as fast as possible, fix them, & introduce the latest stable version of the software.
Fair play?
"While others here have met players with issues who use slower-downers, I have yet to meet someone who's playing didn't improve after adding them to their practice tools."
That's all I'm asking. That's where there seems to be a conflict in the observations of our collective members.
It's a good discussion, not an easy one though.
Ben, I'm confused. I can't speak for ASD, but I use Transcribe 7 on Windows almost every day, and it extremely stable.
What is more interesting, probably requires a neuroscientist to really provide any insight, is to look at whether there are fundamental differences in the brain structure and activity over time based on how one chooses to learn tunes. For example, both Nintendo and some of the 3D TV vendors are suggesting that children not use their 3D devices because it could effect their brain's visual development.
A simple example is that I know several really awful players who only learn their tunes from sheet music. Enough that I can't believe its a coincidence, I think they've actually damaged their brains.
Cheers Michael. I don't think we're in conflict. I'm more concerned about someone who is new to Irish music looking for the best way to learn the tunes.
I don't think someone who is new to this music should be using these apps for all the reasons listed by others on this thread.
Everything I've said really applies to someone who has been playing for some reasonable time, has had some coaching from more experienced players, has a growing repertoire of tunes. For that level player and beyond, ASD and Transcribe are great tools both for learning new tunes as well as doing detailed reverse engineering of variations and ornamentation on recordings.
For the first year or two, just listening, lilting along with tunes, and getting the music into your being should be much more important than playing, particularly if its one's first real exposure to the genre or coming from another style of music.
I don't think we're all coming to a similar conclusion, Ben (even though you did qualify it a bit). The arguments are up above, so i won't repeat them here.
I'm totally with you, however, Michael, when you say that there are some truly awful players out there who claim to learn all their tunes from sheet music. But that is a different argument, and one that is, of course, well-rehearsed round these parts.
The great thing about slowdown software is that you can use it the other way - record yourself at a sensible pace, then speed it up until you sound like a genius.
I remember when I first took an interest in Irish music I bought a booklet and cassette by Tommy Peoples. The first thing I noticed about the music was that it was faster than I could play. The second thing I noticed was that it was about a semitone and a half sharp. In those days the only way to change pitch was with a variable speed tape deck, and by the time a had a copy that was in tune, it was also at a managable speed. Even the Gods cheat
To be honest I can only learn tunes when played at a decent speed. I mostly use Transcribe for when I want to learn slow airs. It makes it much easier to pick the pace up a bit. Not too much you understand. I am trying to wean myself off it. Each time I learn a new one I play it a little bit slower. I see it as training my ears.
Going back to Michael Eskins three point advantages of the apps, I don't have any problem with any of these other than the tempo change. All the other uses seem to me undeniably useful, though I've never felt the need for these uses. However, as a tool, I would say use it if you must to learn how to learn tunes at their natural pace - not just to learn tunes as a matter of course. It seems strange that serial users of slow down software can't see or are unwilling to accept the benefits of learning at normal speed, even if initially it takes them twice as long.
Skreech, yes, I've heard of that method, I was lead to believe Frankie Gavins Eb recordings were to tighten things up though that may just be rumour. To be fair though, I can't help feeling it was probably a fashionable production technique. I'm not aware of anyone who uses that now. To my ears their genius is much more noticeable in the recordings they did without production tricks.
Gam, yes, there was a bit of tongue in cheek - I don't suppose for one moment that Tommy made his cassette that way on purpose. I suspect that some anonymous mastering engineer sped things up so that it would fit on a standard length tape, without realising that he was rendering it totally useless as a teaching aid.
I think these sort of techniques are still used quite a lot, but because pitch and tempo can now be altered independently, the end results are more subtle, and harder to spot. I know Duncan Chisholm tunes his fiddle a semitone flat when he records, because that gives is a richer sound, then pitch-shifts the track (without altering speed) to fit the accompaniment.
You're right Skreech, Duncan tunes his fiddle to where he finds it sings, but he doesn't pitch shift, or at least not more than a few cents. The other instruments tune to the fiddle. Lovely sound he makes though.
As far as using slowdown, the only use I've found for it is when I'm trying to transcribe a tune. As a fiddler I find it useless for play-along, because if you slow a tune down the bowing patterns have to change.
We have the same sort of problem with our 'slow session' - slowing tunes down just doesn't work. Rather than slowing fast tunes down, it is far better to just choose tunes that the group can play at their natural speed. I think the same will apply to people practicing alone - if you can't learn it at full whack, leave it for later and concentrate on slower tunes.
Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I've used the Amazing Slowdowner for several years. Recently, tunes have mysteriously dropped off the tune list. The reply to my inquiry regarding the problem informs me that I need to upgrade, and will be relieved of $30.00 to do so. I paid $45.00 for the original. In this day and age of free and low-cost apps, and free upgrades, Roni music must be hurting.
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by jtrout
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
That sucks. Time to stop using the ASD, I guess.
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by gravelwalks
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
The rip off is that anyone should use slow down software at all, ripping off their ears.
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Is that what happened to van Gogh?
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Nah, the latest story is that another painter named Paul Gauguin got in an argument with Van Gogh and sliced it off with a sword. Then Van Gogh made up the other story about cutting it off himself to protect Gauguin.
Here check it out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/06/arts/design/06arts-WASGAUGUINTH_BRF.html?_r=1
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by Gone to work
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
The free VLC Media Player (latest version is 1.1.5 of Nov 13, 2010) will, at your command, slow down or speed up in real time whatever audio or video file you're playing without changing pitch. Look for a small panel with "1.00x" in it at the bottom right-hand corner of the VLC window.
Quick download from http://www.videolan.org in Windows or Mac version (versions for other platforms are available). VLC plays and streams almost all audio or video formats and uses its own internal codecs.
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
"and uses its own internal codecs"
Because re-inventing the wheel is the way progress happens.
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
VLC may be writing its own codecs in a "clean room*" because that is one way to avoid infringement problems and/or the necessity to pay licence fees. Further, with its codecs completely under its control it is in a position to upgrade them very quickly as the market changes without waiting for other manufacturers to move.
*"clean room" an office (usually) where a designer or programmer is instructed to design something or to write code to do a specific job but is not allowed to see how others (i.e. competitors) have solved the problem. If he comes up with very similar code on his own then he clearly hasn't copied. Naturally, all this needs to be done under careful control and documentation. I've seen it in operation in an industry I used to work in.
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I had a similar issue when I moved ASD to a new computer about a year ago. On the new machine, the player kep crashing for no apparent reason. I wasn't keen on paying more for a new version either. Time to look at the free one - thanks for the link.
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by ian stock
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I've been using Best Practice, freeware for a long time, fantastic.
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by Andyras1
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I'm with you on this one, bogman. But I came to the conclusion some while ago that I was in a small minority on this site.
Doesn't mean we're not right though.
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
you are right
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by ...
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I use the first one on this page: http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html
Works nicely and free.
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by davedupplaw
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Do you want to explain, llig? Or are you feeling like me? 'Cos I just can't be &rsed.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
llig doesn't believe in slowing tunes down - the only software-based system he endorses for tune learning is the holodeck
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by airport
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
If I find a difficult tune - I record it off the Internet Spotify example edit and make recording into Mp3 Audacity example, and learn it by slowing it down in window's media player - Total cost , Nothing ..
How I learnt this one - Slow first then fast -
jim,,,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOzfvZw4V2s
PS-
But my computer sound was S*ite - so now I've got a Flip Recorder... But I would do the same thing recording Session's.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
"believe"???
What you have to realise when you slow a recording down with a computer is that you destroy the timing.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ...
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Fiddle4. I appreciate your contributions to this forum, you are one of the best people here. You are exceptionally helpful. and I have no doubt that you are a splendid bloke. And I know that I'm laying myself open to ridicule because I don't post examples of my playing. But I think your timing is not very good.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ...
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
that's a tricky tune timing-wise - a friend of mine recorded it for me so I could learn it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTsXRk4DTIk
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by airport
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I've been playing with a demo of transposer, which does the trick, and whilst not free, its more flexible than slowing down in media player.
Chris
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by chrisblack
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Amazing Slow Downer hasn't been giving me any bother.
Bogman (and EB, and Llig) you know I appreciate your argument against slow down software but I still maintain that it has its uses so long as you are aware of its limitations.
A real live person slowing down a tune so you can learn it is likely to mess up the timing as well. Then you say, "Well, if they're a great player, they won't do that."
Okay...you're trying to learn this music. You're not yet at a point where you can hear intervals perfectly at 95mph. Would be nice, but not a fecking chance. You can't learn from dots, slow down software, slowing down a tape or LP which does weird things to pitch and timing as well, or a real live musician who can't keep perfect time whilst slowing down a single phrase of a tune. What the f*ck are you supposed to do?
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
You can learn stuff from anything. You can learn stuff from the worst of recourses. You can even learn stuff from this daft website.
But the trick is to differentiate
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ...
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Well llig leahcim -
I know its not much good on that one - I only just learnt in that week - But heres one I played years now - I think is not bad if I could keep it that way ....
jim,,,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDuDaHTOKpc
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Hi
I'm with Bogman, EB and Llig on this topic
Learning a tune at speed is not easy, it isn't meant to be easy!!
Dont play outwith your limitations / technique / choice of tune etc
Break the tune down which doesnt mean slow the tune down to the extent of using ASD etc
Develop your own timing, you listen to the tune and slow it down in your head at a pace tempo you are comfortable with
By all means challenge yourself but do it gradually
Listen to a tune at speed in stages ie 2 bars / 4 bars etc
If you switch off your PC and listen to tunes on tape or CD etc
and practice with your instrument, you'll be amongst thousands of other trad musicians who learned the same way
before the internet appeared
Obviously playing with other musicians is important, finding a teacher might be beneficial but remember lots of good trad musicians are also self taught so don't discount it
My 2 cents
pkev
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by pkev
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
TheSilverSpear --
You are totally right about this one..
< A real live person slowing down a tune so you can learn it is likely to mess up >
Once I went to a slow session for learners - and thats all I done,,
Messed Up -
jim,,,
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Well ... I quite liked that one
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ...
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Well, in fairness a lot of musicians in the pre-internet age learned from other musicians, who may have slowed down the tune well. Or poorly. I doubt many of the old dudes and the new dudes who are all really good are entirely self-taught.
I also like the fact that ASD can be programmed to loop sections of a track, which is useful for tricky bits even if you don't slow it down at all. That's like asking your pal, "How does that bit go?" iTunes doesn't do that. And to learn from a tape player, I'd have to sit in my car. Trying to play the pipes while hunched up and freezing in any seat in the car sucks spectacularly.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
BTW, I know this because I briefly lived in a building where the neighbours would angrily pound on your door even if you played a whistle, at noon, with bluetac over the fipple muting the sound. Needless to say, the pipes went over like a lead balloon so I used to try to practice in the car. Didn't hack off the neighbours, but it was hard bloody work and you'd think, "these rolls and triplets would be better if I could still feel my fingers."
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
TheSilverSpear --
< I doubt many of the old dudes and the new dudes who are all really good are entirely self-taught. >
I am not sure about the really good bit but, which one to choose here - lol.. I'll go for the truth,
I'm one of those old dudes who's entirely self-taught. I heard Belfast fiddler Andy Dickson play one day and decided, that's want I want to do. I went to some old guy's houses to learn tunes etc,,, But I learned the instrument and most of the tunes, In my own tiny room in my mums house - And back then I hated learning one to one, I got to nervous messed up and could not remember the tune anyway - lol.
I like you learned The Instrument by watching, and asking player's like Gerry O'Connor Fiddle Question's - All my tune learning was LP's, 4 track tape's, or recording off Radio RTE .. Long Note program's etc. Until the Internet came along.
jim,,,
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Perfect time to switch over to using "Transcribe" from Seventh String Software, my preferred slower-downer for both audio and video on Windows and Mac.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Knowing how to differentiate is important. I listen to & pick up on tunes from a number of sources. I don't really slow down tunes, but I don't begrudge those who; do especially those who are aware of it's limitations.
imho, just enjoy yourself & learn & play however you want. Whichever method you have has limitations. Ultimately a tune is learnt & really becomes music in the playing, not the learning.
I've nothing but respect for players who can play the tunes well, learn every last one of them in session, never practice, & play the tunes well. All 3 of you.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I used to slow down tapes to learn some of the more tricky tunes, before computers took over.
Software just makes it easier and more practical, so that's what I use now.
There's nothing wrong with slowing down tunes to learn, If you know what you are doing. When you can play the tune slowly you gradually build up speed, and eventually play along with the original tempo of the recording.
The slowing down is just to pick up every single note, it's just the beginning of the process. When you have the tune in your head is when the real work starts. Then you can think of timing, articulation (yes, articulation) and ornaments.
And I did and still do sometimes learn tunes at real speed, but I don't feel that it is any better, honestly.
Hey, It might be different for everyone, that's just the way it is for me.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Gallowglass
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
TSS, this thing about learning in the car ...
You're assuming that you have to have your pipes with you. But I think that's a lot of the problem with the way people round here seem to want to learn tunes - they're too impatient to get on and put the thing on their instrument. If you're learning from CDs, tapes or whatever (not as good as learning from real live people but can be OK) then try *not* attempting it on your instrument until you've got the tune in your head. Be able to sing it first.
Once you can sing a tune, and if you know your instrument to even a basic level, you should be able to just play it on your instrument. Job done. And it doesn't matter how long it takes you to be able to sing the tune. That bit could be 10 minutes, a week, a month or even longer. But, once you can sing it, it should be *instant* to be able to play it on your instrument. And I mean, instant. (For you, TSS, if you can't do it straight away on pipes, then play it on whistle first.)
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
"What you have to realise when you slow a recording down with a computer is that you destroy the timing."
I know what you mean but I don't think it's entirely like that. Given the state of the art of the technology I would assume that the software does a very accurate job of rendering the audio information at a slower tempo. However, the timing is something that our brains reconstruct from that audio information, in much the same way as we perceive repeating patterns when we look at a piece of wallpaper. The perception of that timing will involve a degree of averaging-out across the players in the ensemble and across the music itself. Slow the audio down too much and your brain starts to find it harder to do that.
I can't see a problem in slowing the music right down in order to find exactly what notes are being played. As for playing along, well here we run up against another piece of llig advice, correct in my opinion, that you should never play a piece of music faster than you can manage. So taking these two pieces of advice together would imply that you would never be able play along with a recording until you can play it adequately well at full lick.
For myself as an intermediate player, playing along to recordings is something I really enjoy doing and which I feel benefits my playing. So, I will often do that at 95% speed for which I find the timing stays fairly well intact. Occasionally for a really fast tempo I will play along at 90%, for which the timing is compromised but, heck, life is full of compromises. Mixed in with other playing-along at 100% I personally don't think that will neccessarily harm your ability to develop a good feel for the music.
Also, another vote for Transcribe.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by johndsamuels
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
"What you have to realise when you slow a recording down with a computer is that you destroy the timing."
llig c a n y o u e x p l a i n w h a t y o u m e a n
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
God, I don't understand that post at all John. I think it may be your percentages that have confused me ...
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Let's say you have a recording of a reel played at 100 beats per minute, a steady pace but convenient for the maths. If you set your slowdowner software to speed 95% then it will play it back at 95 bpm. Slow it down too much and it won't sound like a reel at all.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by johndsamuels
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
FWIW I'm with TSS and johndsamuels on this. Except that I use Audacity and sometimes allow myself 85% for playing along.
In particular I have not found any tutorial-type recordings where a tune is played slowly in a way that I find more use than slowing down the fast version. I think the main gain from learning a tune directly from (or with) someone is not to do with timing, that its to do with the way that situation forms associations, and that a short break for an anecdote or mouthfull of beer gives time for things to sink in.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by David50
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Crossed, that's what I understood. At my stage playing a jig at 95 pbm using the same basic articulations I would want at 105 bpm seems to help a lot. In fact, I would aim to practice it at 95 bpm solo if the local session usually played it at more like 105. It comes from being selective about the advice one gets on the internet
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by David50
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I'm a pretty slow reader. It takes me a long time to read a book (much longer than the missus, for example). But I like to get to grips will all the nuances of language. If I tried to read at the same speed as my wife all I would get would be the very bare bones of the story without any of the ornamentation and character development.
If I have to stop reading a book for a while I might reread a section when I go back to it. But I'll read it quicker than before because it's familiar to me.
Part of my job involves making fairly accurate transcriptions of fiddle and guitar playing. I do that by listening very carefully. Sometimes though I'll use Transcribe (as mentioned above by Michael Eskin) for bits I'm having trouble hearing at full speed. I don't see anything wrong in that and it doesn't affect the timing one iota.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by DonaldK
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
"with all the nuances"
Dang
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by DonaldK
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Articulation is mostly about timing.
Try using your slowdown software on some speech and you'll understand straight away what I'm on about. Listen for how the vowels don't change much, but the consonants sound nothing like they should. The Bs, Cs and Ds especially.
When you speak at different speeds the articulation of the Bs, Cs and Ds doesn't really change much. Try it: "The cat sat on the mat". Say the word "Cat" as fast as you can, then say it as slow as you can. What does the C sound like?
The same thing happens with the music. You might think you are able to get the notes of a tune more accurately, but spend any time at all listening to a mechanically slowed down version, even as little as 95% and you are exposing yourself to horrid distortions of articulation which consciously or subconsciously will appear in your playing.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ...
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I've been slowing the latest Coleman 78s down to half speed on my Victrola, and now I play everything an octave lower.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by fidkid
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Funnily enough, that's how I used to work out Rory Gallagher guitar solos in the 1970's - playing LPs at sixteen and two-thirds on my old Hacker.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by DonaldK
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Is the difference in articulation between the same tune played at 100% and 95% more or less than that between a fiddle and the pipes playing the same tune ? Or, if slowing down speech, between two different people saying "the cat sat on the mat" ?
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by David50
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
tee he
Reminds me of "The man who fell to Earth". The authorities catch the alien by following a trail of gold sovereigns he's been spending that are perfect in every way, except that they are 96%. Along with his passport, they were manufactured from only ever seeing them on telly.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ...
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Ethical, learning to sing the tune seems like an extra step. Fine if you can't play but if you can, it seems more straightforward to put it on your instrument if you can. Anyway, when I lived in anti-music building, I needed the hours playing the pipes as I was a pretty useless player in those days.
) and they used to learn tunes by slowing down the record. Now that distorts the sound. Slow down software does an appreciably better job.
Michael, presumably you're not trying to learn how to play articulations (or ornaments) from the slowed down recording. If you know how the tunes *should* sound and understand the limitations of the slowed down recording, I don't see any harm in using the slowdown software. I have friends who learned to play when LPs were still popular (they are very old
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
And considering you haven't heard me play in about four years, you have no idea if the "horrid distortions" are appearing in my playing.
I've heard recordings of Mike Eskin that he's put on the web and he doesn't sound like a slowed down recording even though he admitted to using Transcribe.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
llig. I was a ware that was probably a short answer to Theirlandais so maybe I shouldn't have been picky.
But sometimes it seems the that the underlying assumption is that people learning from recordings, or playing along with them, are all apeing their heros like some wanabbee popsinger practicing for a karaoke night.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by David50
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Being able to sing the tune "seems like an extra step". I can see how it might look like that, but I don't think so. I think it *is* the step that's required. If you can sing it you can play it. The beauty of it is that, done this way, you won't have practised all the wrong ways and potential bad habits. You just go straight to the tune on your instrument.
It is different when you are first learning your instrument, I think. But then, for learners, it's surprising - ask a learner, one who is now reasonably proficient, to play something they learnt before they had any proficiency with their instrument. You'll find that they will play it with all the faults they had at the stage of their development that they learnt the tune. It can then be difficult to iron out those faults for that particular tune. It strikes me that you don't want to perpetuate this condition indefinitely, so, at least IMO, it's better to know the tune first ... then play it.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I agree. Knowing the tune first is not an extra step at all. The extra steps, the damaging ones, are the ones where you flail around on your instrument trying to get it right by trial and error.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ...
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I don't disagree with you, really. I just think people get too dogmatic about The One True Way to learn Irish music. You have a perfectly valid approach, one I even use sometimes. I also will just transfer tunes directly from laptop to pipes -- sometimes mediated through slow downer and sometimes picked up at speed.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Now, why do Irish say tree and not three, was it due to the excessive speed of the music, English as a second language or were the ears too slow.
I used to play 33s at 78s, now that was an ExxxxPPerieeeeeence but seeing as it was Joe Burke at the time it nearly made it normal.. but I only really used it, to count notes and their relationship to each other.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
There's a world of difference between "One True Way" and the best way. "One True Way" is pure dogma, where as "the best way" is formed from experience and pragmatism.
The problem with what people perceive as short cuts is that in the long run, they never are.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ...
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
You used to play 33s at 78s ... so you speeded it up more than twice to be able "to count notes"???!?
I'm having real problems with numbers at the moment ...
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
eb. I read your "play it with all the faults they had at the stage of their development" and know that I have just that problem with the Blackthorn Stick and the Kesh.
Its not simple though - I know that I learned the Blackthorn stick from the dots, on whistle, before I ever heard it played and I know I learned the the Kesh by ear without ever seeing the dots. When I did get a recording of the Blackthorn Stick it was followed by the Kesh. One day I just carried on playing by accident. But that was on mandolin and I only recently recognised the problem - on flute.
So I am inclinded to think it is a 'learner' thing rather than direcly related to method. Or maybe related to using just one aural source that got burned into my head.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by David50
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Yes, I can see that, David. I think it's probably inevitable in any case in the early stages of learning an instrument. The trick is not to keep doing it once you've built up the physical proficiency.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
After posting that it occurred to me that there may be two different problems. On the Blackthorn Stick it is mainly whistle breathing that is too ingrained, on Kesh it is mandolin things in place of rolls.
Its only slighlty off topic though - I think change in articulations due to 10% speed difference is lost in the noise of all the other stuff going on. Its not as if I am trying to match Matt Molloy or Harry Bradley's articulations - some hope !
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by David50
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Llig, so you think by slowing down the music to pick up the tunes we are going to articulate in slow motion when we play? hahaha
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Gallowglass
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
It's not funny, I've heard it often.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ...
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Did anyone realise that 33 + 45 = 78, now that's weird
Ethical, So those 12" vinyls, which as far as my memory serves me were 33s, how did I play them slower, I don't remember using my tongue to slow down the turn table... was there by any chance a 16 setting ???!?
I'm pretty confused myself now..
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
gallóglaigh
excellent, love it. better spelt in gaelige eh.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I thought it was 33 and a third.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by David50
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
And yes, there was a 16 setting.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by David50
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
No it was 16 and 2/3 (including voice recordings for schools I thing) . More than you want to know about the engineering reasons here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_record
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by David50
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
David50 you have just gone and ruined the fun....
Did nobody ever tell you that "Knowledge is a waste of good brain"
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I don't use Transcribe for the videos I post, I just play the tunes slowly. I'd never use Transcribe that way.
I use Transcribe to practice tunes from recordings or videos where the tempo is a bit too fast for me to play at first. I generally isolate the A and B parts with markers, then play them looped at 50 to 70% speed until I have them nailed, then slowly increase the speed to 100%.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Thankfully I learn all my tunes from being abducted by the fairies, so this whole issue is moot for me.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I just missed my puchline
"Knowledge is a waste of A good brain"
I've been too busy all day shouting CAT, it's starting to get to me.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
A while ago, I wrote this summary of exactly how I use Transcribe in my daily practice regimen:
http://www.tradlessons.com/?page_id=135
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Llig - I don't see slowing a tune down as a shortcut. Certainly for a beginner who's brain and ears are not up to learning tunes at normal speed yet, slowing a tune down is a perfectly viable way to at least hear the melody clearly and absorb it.
Your suggestion is that the timing would be off - perhaps initially, but you can always progress with that as you increase the speed and familiarity.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Ethical - Do you need to be able to sing?
Seriously though I can't imagine how you would begin learning a tune unless you already knew how it went, in your head. That doesn't take long. For some tunes you might be humming along almost straight away. Why would you want to learn a tune if you didn't already have it in your head? How would you know if you liked it or not?
I am not going to be a hypocrite. I have Transcribe. I have used it to learn tunes and have found it useful. I have found it to be both cheaper and better than ASD. It is right that there is more than one way to learn a tune, just like there is more than one way to do anything but you always need to be mindful of how a different approach will effect your playing of the tune.
If you learn a tune to speed then it is harder to hear every individual note so you listen more to the phrasing of the tune to the peaks and troughs and to how the tune flows. As you get it under your fingers it will, hopefully, begin to fit the tune you should have in your head. For some talented b*st*rds (one in particular springs to mind) you will be able to play that tune by the 2nd time of hearing it and by the 3rd time round it sounds like you have been playing it all your life. For others it will take longer. Cest la vie.
If you use ASD/Transcribe/whatever to slow a tune down then the danger is you are just listening for the next note and then the next and then the next, and you pay less attention to the phrasing and the flow. Unless you have the tune firmly in your head then that is surely going to mess with your timing - unless you are very careful.
I would have thought so anyway.....
I need to learn more tunes.....
Oh well.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Well yes, if all you did was work with slowed down and distorted versions of tunes to learn from, you would probably end up sounding funny, and if all you did was look at dots or over relied on them you'd end up sounding funny too. If you learned all your tunes from a more experienced player with timing issues, or intonation problems or whatever, you'd probably end up with the same issues too.
Seriously, if you haven't listened to the tunes enough to be able to hum, sing or croak them, you'll probably end up sounding funny too. But if you are figuring out tunes you've heard many times but are wondering about that exact sequence of notes in one little spot or something, how silly to think that sorting it through an amazing invention like a slow downer, or a willing player/tutor who'll slow down the passage for you will suddenly send you straight to the hopelessly bad player club.
Judicious use of helpful aides can contribute to the pursuit of musicality, like a pinch of cloves can add flavour to some recipes but you wouldn't replace flour with cloves and expect to get anything edible.
Balance is the issue and a little common sense.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Twisty
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Slowing down doesn't just affect the tune you're learning but the whole way you listen to and hear traditional music. Using that technique just means you cheat yourself.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
It's not cheating. It's a learning aid.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Gallowglass
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
does a good job, is free and open source, and works even on all platforms including Linux.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Robinson
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Do you think I listen to slowed down music? Seriously...
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Gallowglass
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Is it? So once you've learned to hear the tunes properly at full speed will you stop using it?
The usual line is, "I can't hear the intervals at full speed". So would it be fair to say if you can hear the intervals a full speed maybe you might be able to hear the tunes better, learn tunes faster?
I've always been against it mainly for the cheating yourself argument. I have softened my attitude after conversations with folk because I realise people like a tune and want to play it with other folk. In that context I think ok fair enough, but the problem is folk seem to rely on it. It seems once you use it you see it as a 'tool' and use it from then on. It's your ears that are the tools and you're cheating them be at least not trying to learn tunes at full speed. But it seems pointless reasoning because folk seem to be in denial that learning tunes at full speed is any sort of advantage
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I hear what you are saying bogman, and I agree with you actually. I can't think a person would enjoy listening to a slowed down version of a tune for very long. If you don't have the tune in your head from hearing it really well played many times, where would the desire to learn it come from anyway?
However, are you saying that using some way of slowing down even a little bit of a part of a tune that needs closer examination a couple of times in order explore a detail more thoroughly before resuming life at normal speed would cause ruination?
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Twisty
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
ok, cross post of a sort
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Twisty
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
x post. No I don't, but I believe you would hear tunes at normal speed better if you learned them without the crutch of slowing them down first.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
That was to Gallowglass but it works for Twisty's last question too.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I don't slow them down first. I slow them down after they are already mostly in my head and I have decided to learn the tune because I like it. Then I just slow it down to get every note. All I'm doing is to ensure I get the melody properly.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Gallowglass
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I follow a method similar to Gallowglass'. I used to rely on Slow Downer far more than I do now but after several conversations with bogman, mainly, have tried to get off it to a degree. I still use it slowed down minimally on tricky sections of a tune. It's a useful tool.
It can be used to learn how to hear tunes at full speed. You just slowly decrease the amount you slow the tune down. Is that cheating? I don't think so. If software like this hadn't been available, learning tunes when I first learned to play would have been a feckin' nightmare. You'd probably turn to the sheet music and that's worse!
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I appreciate bogman's point about continued reliance on various devices. I also appreciate the pragmatic experience of those who either don't use learning aids or have used them in the past but don't now.
Gallowglass, your approach brings it back to something similar to having someone play the tune at speed to get it into your head 1st, & then slowing it down; or playing the phrases. It's different from picking up everything at speed, but how many players do pick up everything at speed?
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
@ NCFA: in case you were serious - you have to be able to sing in your head. But you answered your own question. Anyway, I've heard you sing. You have a truly fantastic voice - almost unbelievable.
) when I go to classes at summer schools and the like. Takes me a while afterwards to sort of re-translate to be able to hear the whole tune. That just doesn't happen if I hear the whole tune at speed and learn it that way.
This hearing every note business - hinted at by NCFA but stated outright and fairly strongly by Gallowglass: honestly, I hear every single note better if I hear the tune at speed than if it's slowed down. I have slight issues with that (which I get over
@ Gallowglass: "Then I just slow it down to get every note". Taking bogman's point, if you routinely listened to tunes at speed and learnt from them that way, you'd hear every note at speed. That'd be a useful skill, wouldn't it? I find it useful ...
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
How do you know Gallowglass *doesn't* listen to tunes routinely. Making a bit of an assumption there....
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I didn't say that. I said "if you routinely listened to tunes at speed and learnt from them that way, you'd hear every note at speed". Gallowglass said he "slow[s] it down to get every note".
I didn't make an assumption.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I'm willing to go to the dark side. I just called a man who I'm going to meet in an alley at midnight. He's an IV off his slowdowner straight into a vein. Who's brave enough to give me the names of the fastest, trickiest tunes ever recorded (I keep reading about Gordon Duncan ~ haven't heard him). I plan to get my money's worth.
... joking, check my forearms, they're clean.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Now, OTOH, by saying "he" I was making an assumption.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
TSS, I don't mean cheating in that context, that suggests cheating as in cards. I mean depriving your ears of what they capable of.
And it's yourself that convinced me that the software can be used in a good way - providing folk do what you do, which is work towards learning at full speed. It just seems too many people see it as a permanent 'tool', and can't or don't want to appreciate what the naked ear is capable of given your help.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
crickey, the posts are flying past...
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
e.b., there's more than a few players learning everything at speed & saying they are getting everything right & they're not. How do you suss out who is who when it comes to reading what's posted? If you say you're getting everything at speed I trust you to be honest. So, I'm not asking you to prove anything. But on the whole do you think that's always the case?
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I do listen to tunes routinely, at normal speed needless to say. And have been doing so for many years, from recordings and live musicians, sessions, whatever. Almost too much so. I have a very good idea of what the music sounds like normally. So slowing down a recording is not going to spoil all my years of listening and playing. And I also said before in this thread that I also sometimes learn from normal speed. It's about being flexible.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Gallowglass
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I'm enjoying this thread. It would have been a very boring evening without it. Thanks guys, I wish we could get together right now and play a few tunes. But not too fast please.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Gallowglass
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I didn't say it would spoil anything, Gallowglass. I just made the point that, if you didn't rely on slowing things down, you might end up with a skill that's pretty useful. Bogman's point, in fact.
Ben - no, it's not always the case. In my experience, however, it is often the case that people whom I've met who have claimed to learn their tunes using slowdowner software generally have worse listening skills and are therefore either more oblivious or less relaxed and participative than they should be in a session situation. People will sometimes say things like "Well, it's OK for you - you have a great ear. For me ..." and they sigh. I'm suggesting that they have the cause and effect round the wrong way.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Love your last post, GG.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
bogman, is the naked ear only capable of such things if it has TSS' help?
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
pardon me grammar. The only one who can improve ones ear be oneself. :q
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Arrrr!
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I think my improving ability to pick things up at speed has a lot to do with recognising things that are similar to something my fingers have done before. When learning tunes I sometimes use the slow downer (and stop starter) software to check that I really do have something right if I am not sure, or when something is so unfamiliar that I am bashing my head against a wall doing wrong things and I decide it is time to be 'told the answer'. In that situation I won't be singing it right either. It is one way of improving my ear.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by David50
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I know, bogman.
I think most people have to train their ears to be able to hear every note of a tune flying past at full speed. Maybe a beginner from a background where they were immersed in the music can hear the tunes from the outset, but those of us from musically deprived backgrounds have to find our way the best we can, using whatever tools are available.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I think in general terms for me, the slowed down version represents somewhere in the region of 5% of my listening time when learning a tune, I'm confident the 95% will dominate the 5%, so I now need to continue my search for the root cause, for a moment there, I thought I had an answer..
This evening I'm working on a hornpipe, "Fly by Night", I made sure I watched a Formula 1 race beforehand, just to make sure I had the right level of Doppler coming into the tune.
this is the only thread I've seen for a while where everyone is right...
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
You're saying the ear is improved if you watch cars driving around a track really fast before learning a tune? Gotta try that one.
Might be viewed as a crutch, though. 
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
'Ang on, Theirlandais, you mean you hear a tune better if it dramatically changes pitch just when you start to hear it properly?
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Bit of a rant ~ comes from mixing beer on top of coffee
Here's my pedantry. The Silver Spear, I agree, "most people have to train their ears to be able to hear every note of a tune flying past at full speed." But you're only referring to the melody. Which yes that which constitutes a pitch varies depending on the instrument, overtones, musette ... but essentially it's the melody, the intervals, higher & lower bits. Or as llig says, "that's the easy bits"
Now I'm on thin ice here. Which is why I'm meeting my man at midnight, to find out for myself. But until then, is the usefulness of The Amazing SlowDowner primarily to suss out the easy bits; i.e. ~ the melody?
I mean it cannot help with the timing or the articulation, maybe some phrasing, though I don't understand how it would be better than simply picking that up at speed.
... just curious. I'll actually be safely tucked in come midnight. ;)
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
YYYYYYYeees and NOOOOOOOOOOO
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Theirlandais
Full disclosure here. I have a media player which I use when woodshedding on a new tune. It's The KM Player & one of the older skins has an A - B repeat right on the screen. I mark the phrase I want to learn & it loops.
I have a CD player which changes pitch. I haven't used it in years, but it came in handy for learning tunes for songs when one of our singers sang in a different key from the recording.
# Posted on January 7th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Is that a general question or part of a conversation Ben ? Anyhow, for me slowing down when learning (as opposed to playing along) is usually for a few beats worth of tune in which the density of information is greater than would normally be notated in a tune book. Say a puzzling melodic twist mixed up with some twiddly bits.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by David50
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
ASD doesn't teach you articulation. It's pretty sh*t at teaching phrasing as well. It's basically like a roadmap to the tune: it shows you where to go but doesn't teach you how to drive.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
The 1st thing I learned when playing by ear is don't suss out the same note. There is a tendency to always be expecting an interval. But, with all the different ways to articulate rhythm (& thinking articulation is the same as ornamentation, or embellishment) you try (too hard) to think you need to play more notes than there are in the melody.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Ben Steen
~~
that was a tangent, has nothing to do w/this thread. Carry on!
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Of those dismissing ASD and Transcribe as useful tools, I'd be curious how many have actually used either one and then decided to stop using them, vs. those who just have a strong opinion about the subject, but no actual experience. How about some full disclosure here?
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I agree, at some level of slowdown, you lose the phrasing, but generally, that's during the "what order are these notes in" phase for me of learning a tune, anything below about 70% is for me a physical memorization skill, then as I bring the speed up you can hear the flow and phrasing. These aren't monolithic tools, its the flexibility of Transcribe that, at least for how my brain works, allows me to set speeds just a tiny bit faster than I'm able to play to slowly push me toward the goal of playing tunes up to speed. I find this particularly useful on instruments that completely unforgiving of errors, in particular the Anglo concertina.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Disclosure: I've never used either. Don't feel the need. I can only comment on the basis of people I have met who *have* used such things.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Somebody mentioned this recently and it bears repeating. The melody isn’t necessarily the easy part for everybody. My brain tends to record elements like harmony, rhythmic articulations and stylistic nuances very quickly, but might stumble repeatedly over a slightly quirky melodic phrase. That may be because a lot of my early musical experience involved accompanying songs that often had to be learned very quickly.
That said, I’ve used slowdown software only once that I recall.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Bob himself
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
i bought a Hitachi MP3 player for £30 a few months back and it can play any MP3 file at various speeds. The speeds are:
1.14x the normal speed
1.33x " "
0.67x " "
0.80x " "
that includes recordings from its handy little microphone.
Why not just buy one of those instead of some dodgy app?
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Exactly, everybody has a different style of learning, but that seems to get lost in these discussions. I would say that someone who has phrasing issues learning using ASD or Transcribe, probably has phrasing issues learning any other way and probably needs to get coaching from a teacher, as they may not have the distinctions in listening required to hear the phrases. Again, the problem isn't the tool, it's in how it's used.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Michael Eskin
It's melody 1st, in all it's glory
Puzzling melodic twists. If I know what you're referring to Dave, & I'm thinking mostly reels, I would never slow them down. 1st off hornpipes don't have puzzles, they just make you think they do. I prefer most hornpipes at a moderate tempo in any case. But the reels which might seem to be puzzling aren't. Play them at speed. It's the only way. If they don't fall under your fingers it's probably because you're not comfortable with your instrument; not because you're not familiar with the tune ~ though that could be part of the problem. I guess what I'm saying is it's too neasy to turn something into gibberish by trying to dissect it, when it can be so much more fulfilling to be in the moment & go for it. If it seems exotic ~ you haven't listened enough for the tune to get inside. Keep listening, & put down the scalpel.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
DJF, the main advantage of the apps are that they can:
1) Set markers and selection areas so you can loop a section of a tune.
2) Adjust tempo and pitch independently, which is great for playing along with out-of-tune recordings or historical recordings that may have been in non-concert pitch tunings, like Eb.
3) Can export slowed-down/pitch-adjusted versions of the selection in .WAV format that you can then transcode to .MP3 and put back on your MP3 player to take with you to practice on the road (using the single track looping feature of your player) or distribution to your session buddies who want to learn the same tune.
I find Transcribe to be incredibly useful. Some people don't. You can download a free 30 day eval copy for Windows, Mac, or Linux from the Seventh String Software website and decide for yourself.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
"The problem isn't the tool" Are you sure? Some of the tools are coming out faster than most people using them have an opportunity to determine what might be their problems. I mentioned a CD player which changes pitch, but is perhaps considered obsolete by your typical newbie. It was state of the art not so long ago.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Ben, these days I can normally play a problem phrase if I run over it a few times and sing it in my head. But if I get it wrong at the stage of first learning the tune, and what I do play sounds reasonable, I am likely to notice only when I start trying to play along with the source and there is some sort of clash. I don't think what is stored in my head for a tune is a string of notes.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by David50
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I love software developers. Part of me wishes there really was some dude in the alley at midnight. Though this is more fun.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I don't get where you are going with this, Ben.
Sounds like a argument along the lines of "Back when I was a boy, we didn't need no stinking slower-downer computer thingies, we learned our tunes the old way, by having our fathers beat them into us with a willow tree stick..."
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Sorry, David not Dave. I'm with you. With me it's actually singing out loud. I just need to be sure no one can hear me. Plenty of Irish tunes (reels) get quite notey. I may be wrong about this but, they work.* And yes our brains do work differently, but we're all going for the same thing. The tune played up to speed, with others in a session, & played with confidence. The only question is how to get there.
*you tell me. I'm thinking Otter's Holt, Mouth of Tobique, Temperance, maybe Salamanca ...
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Seriously Michael, I'm a geek. I mingle with developers. It's true, & if I'm putting you on the spot it's because you know what to say.
XXXOOO
Ben
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Ben Steen
My father was nonviolent.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Ben Steen
My bad. Michael, if I'm putting you on the spot it is because you are not a newbie.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I do agree that nobody should try to learn this music in a vacuum, and I'm not advocating use of software over coaching by an experienced instructor.
At the end of the day, if I'm sitting next to someone at a session and they are playing lovely tunes with gorgeous phrasing and effortless variation, I don't care if they learned directly from a master, from the internet, using Transcribe, or if they printed out the dots from session.org, soaked the ink off the paper and took the tune internally as a high-colonic.
While others here have met players with issues who use slower-downers, I have yet to meet someone who's playing didn't improve after adding them to their practice tools. If nothing else, the use of the repeated sections feature in these apps forces one to play with constant rhythm, like a metronome with consequences.
Again, just my experience having used Transcribe since 1999.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
The drive to push software results in stable & beta releases. When a stable release is submitted it doesn't mean there aren't bugs. The driving force in development is to catch the bugs as fast as possible, fix them, & introduce the latest stable version of the software.
Fair play?
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
"While others here have met players with issues who use slower-downers, I have yet to meet someone who's playing didn't improve after adding them to their practice tools."
That's all I'm asking. That's where there seems to be a conflict in the observations of our collective members.
It's a good discussion, not an easy one though.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Ben, I'm confused. I can't speak for ASD, but I use Transcribe 7 on Windows almost every day, and it extremely stable.
What is more interesting, probably requires a neuroscientist to really provide any insight, is to look at whether there are fundamental differences in the brain structure and activity over time based on how one chooses to learn tunes. For example, both Nintendo and some of the 3D TV vendors are suggesting that children not use their 3D devices because it could effect their brain's visual development.
A simple example is that I know several really awful players who only learn their tunes from sheet music. Enough that I can't believe its a coincidence, I think they've actually damaged their brains.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Cheers Michael. I don't think we're in conflict. I'm more concerned about someone who is new to Irish music looking for the best way to learn the tunes.
Cheers,
Ben
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I don't think someone who is new to this music should be using these apps for all the reasons listed by others on this thread.
Everything I've said really applies to someone who has been playing for some reasonable time, has had some coaching from more experienced players, has a growing repertoire of tunes. For that level player and beyond, ASD and Transcribe are great tools both for learning new tunes as well as doing detailed reverse engineering of variations and ornamentation on recordings.
For the first year or two, just listening, lilting along with tunes, and getting the music into your being should be much more important than playing, particularly if its one's first real exposure to the genre or coming from another style of music.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Seems we're all coming to a (somewhat) similar conclusion.
What next?
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
I don't think we're all coming to a similar conclusion, Ben (even though you did qualify it a bit). The arguments are up above, so i won't repeat them here.
I'm totally with you, however, Michael, when you say that there are some truly awful players out there who claim to learn all their tunes from sheet music. But that is a different argument, and one that is, of course, well-rehearsed round these parts.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
The great thing about slowdown software is that you can use it the other way - record yourself at a sensible pace, then speed it up until you sound like a genius.
I remember when I first took an interest in Irish music I bought a booklet and cassette by Tommy Peoples. The first thing I noticed about the music was that it was faster than I could play. The second thing I noticed was that it was about a semitone and a half sharp. In those days the only way to change pitch was with a variable speed tape deck, and by the time a had a copy that was in tune, it was also at a managable speed. Even the Gods cheat
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by skreech
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
To be honest I can only learn tunes when played at a decent speed. I mostly use Transcribe for when I want to learn slow airs. It makes it much easier to pick the pace up a bit. Not too much you understand. I am trying to wean myself off it. Each time I learn a new one I play it a little bit slower. I see it as training my ears.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
A session.org discussion that ends in a kind of agreement and no one got suspended.... What is the world coming to??
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Going back to Michael Eskins three point advantages of the apps, I don't have any problem with any of these other than the tempo change. All the other uses seem to me undeniably useful, though I've never felt the need for these uses. However, as a tool, I would say use it if you must to learn how to learn tunes at their natural pace - not just to learn tunes as a matter of course. It seems strange that serial users of slow down software can't see or are unwilling to accept the benefits of learning at normal speed, even if initially it takes them twice as long.
Skreech, yes, I've heard of that method, I was lead to believe Frankie Gavins Eb recordings were to tighten things up though that may just be rumour. To be fair though, I can't help feeling it was probably a fashionable production technique. I'm not aware of anyone who uses that now. To my ears their genius is much more noticeable in the recordings they did without production tricks.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
We're missing one or two elements for that TSS
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
"use it if you must to learn how to learn tunes at their natural pace"
Sorry, - "use it, if you must, to learn how to learn tunes at their natural pace"
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Gam, yes, there was a bit of tongue in cheek - I don't suppose for one moment that Tommy made his cassette that way on purpose. I suspect that some anonymous mastering engineer sped things up so that it would fit on a standard length tape, without realising that he was rendering it totally useless as a teaching aid.
I think these sort of techniques are still used quite a lot, but because pitch and tempo can now be altered independently, the end results are more subtle, and harder to spot. I know Duncan Chisholm tunes his fiddle a semitone flat when he records, because that gives is a richer sound, then pitch-shifts the track (without altering speed) to fit the accompaniment.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by skreech
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Sorry, that was a reply to bogman, not Gam.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by skreech
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
You're right Skreech, Duncan tunes his fiddle to where he finds it sings, but he doesn't pitch shift, or at least not more than a few cents. The other instruments tune to the fiddle. Lovely sound he makes though.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Sorry, Duncan Chisholm, I should have wrote...
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
As far as using slowdown, the only use I've found for it is when I'm trying to transcribe a tune. As a fiddler I find it useless for play-along, because if you slow a tune down the bowing patterns have to change.
We have the same sort of problem with our 'slow session' - slowing tunes down just doesn't work. Rather than slowing fast tunes down, it is far better to just choose tunes that the group can play at their natural speed. I think the same will apply to people practicing alone - if you can't learn it at full whack, leave it for later and concentrate on slower tunes.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by skreech
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
OOPS. I owe Duncan an apology - you are right, he doesn't pitch shift. I wouldn't like to have to play piano for him!
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by skreech
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
lol, no indeed.
It is interesting though that he doesn't go with the A440 convention but tunes his instrument where he thinks it sounds best.
# Posted on January 8th 2011 by bogman
Re: Amazing Slowdowner Ripoff
Free download Video LAN Slows video files also ,remains at correct pitch and loops. Great learning tool
# Posted on January 17th 2011 by edorian