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Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Hi guys, I'm doing a project on composition within traditional music. According to "The Companion",
Composers and composition. Traditional musicians in the last half of the twentieth century have generally been distinguished between two types of tunes in the repertoire: ‘traditional’ tunes and modern compositions. (Vallely 1999)
My question is, simply this: What makes a tune 'traditional'?
And what makes one composer "a very traditional composer" and another seen as "completely outside the box"?
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Hi guys, I'm doing a project on composition within traditional music. According to "The Companion",
Composers and composition. Traditional compositions in the last half of the twentieth century have generally been distinguished between two types of tunes in the repertoire: ‘traditional’ tunes and modern compositions. (Vallely 1999)
My question is, simply this: What makes a tune 'traditional'?
And what makes one composer "a very traditional composer" and another seen as "completely outside the box"?
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
This is not a very widely popular view, I think, but I've come to the conclusion that - for me - a tune becomes more traditional by a process of oral transmission among the various instruments that are part of the tradition.
When a tune is written, it's generally written on one instrument, by one player, and then played by the player for others. So when it first appears, it has a lot of idisyncracies of the instrument and the player. As other players take up the tune on other instruments, they reshape it to their styles and their instruments, and they pass it on. The people who learn it from them do the same, and over time the tune becomes less about the composer and more about the people who have played it, and even (transitively) the people those players have been influenced by.
So for me, what makes a tune "traditional" is the application of the folk process.
That's not exactly what you were asking, of course - you were asking "what markers can we look for to determine whether a tune is or is not 'traditional'' but I think this leads you towards an answer, at least.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Depends on what the composer wants to do, and possibly on what types of music they listen to and are influenced by. After that it's a matter of personal preference.
Composers in "traditional" style - [ in my opinion ] -
= Paddy Fahy, Charlie Lennon, John Brady, Paddy O'Brien
[ both of them ], Sean Ryan, and seeing as I've just posted an upcoming "Event", the late Jimmy McHugh .
"Outside the box" composers would generally be younger - Michael McGoldrick, Brian Finnegan, Emer Mayock, Seamus Egan. First ones which spring to mind.
What makes a tune "traditional" is acceptance by the traditional community of players, and time. The traditional composers I have mentioned above have already had their compositions accepted - and I would also include Finbarr Dwyer and Ed Reavy in that group, but , again in my opinion, they might have been considered "outside the box" at the time they composed their music. Their music has become "traditional" through acceptance.
How many compositions by the second group are still played in even 10 years time, we'll have to wait and see.
I will add one wee observation from Hammy Hamilton's Ballyvourney Flute gathering in April last year. There was one very telling point when a couple of flute-players from the continent started playing a few Michael McGoldrick tunes. None of the resident local players - who had been playing traditional Irish music all night - joined in, whether they chose not to, or simply didn't know the tunes, I don't know, but I found that quite interesting.
Good luck with your project, and please feel free to come back with any comment or question about what I've posted above. You've raised a very interesting point.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
The quick answer is that there is no such thing as a "traditional music composer", because we won't know if their tunes become accepted within the tradition for a generation or two.
However, there are definitely musicians working within the realms of traditional music who produce tunes that are quickly accepted as fitting within the field by their fellow musicians.
Otherwise, and also, see the replies above.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Kenny, the corollary to the McGoldrick tunes story is when people launch into tunes at a session not realizing that they are fairly recent compositions. It may be apocryphal, but I've heard second-hand that Hammy Hamilton himself tells a story of walking into a pub and hearing his own jigs, the Kerfunteun and the Woodcock, being played, and then overhearing a conversation where one guy told another, "Those are old tunes, the names long forgotten."
Some "new" tunes are like that--they fit the idiom of "traditional" so well that most experienced players would not recognize them as "modern" unless they were told. Other tunes reach outside the tradition enough that we can tell they're "new." But it's not black and white. The White Petticoat sounds a bit "modern" to my ear, but it's been around a good 100 years at least. The music's always been influenced from outside. That's not a bad thing.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I think a simple but tuneful melody, in one's style Scots / Irish , that keeps in your head. A tune which creates an steady dance music rhythm, for that is what this music was about after all. And a nice swing to it is good - But after That,,,
Fancy music Rhythms, Eastern African or the the tempo's of Islam - Then you start to move out of Celtic Traditional Music per-say.
{ I quite like the tempo's of Africa and Islam but in there own Traditional Tunes }
But I am taking it, its ITM you are asking about.
Also to many fancy note's mostly for show, or of a different Culture's style Like Jazz ( Which did a lot in my Twenties ) Thank God for Ben and Charlie Lennon,- lol..
*Where Enough is Enough,, And it still sound's Beautiful !
ITM should run with the Phrases like good Poetry, not syncopation like a gibbering Idiot..
( And I, play some of them tunes too )
But the young ones will do exactly what I done, and try to change everything in spite of all I have said here.
jim,,,
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
If it fits in a set, might be one criterion of acceptance. If the rhythm is congruent with the basic rhythms of trad, the tune is given at least a chance it might well not have otherwise.
For all that, being played by some famous band can cause tunes of quite different rhythms to be taken up, like the Balkan ones played by Planxty / Patrick Street. I wonder how long they'll stay in circulation. Possibly not as long as tunes like Happy Hours and J.B. Milne, which have a 'variety' feel but more conventional 4/4 or 2/4 rhythms; similarly, Music For A Found Harmonium, definitely 'variety'(!), which can go in a set of reels if one really wants it...it's not my favourite tune but it is a strong one, and I think it's here to stay.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Curious - the replies so far all suggest that the age of a tune has very little to do with it being considered "traditional" or not. For instance, if a new tune is introduced into a session and it fulfills the aural markers of the idiom, it could easily be passed off as an ancient traditional tune as illustrated in Harmon's Hammy Hamilton story.
So based on that story, a tune becomes traditional the moment it is accepted by those who play the music?
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Jusa,
"Curious - the replies so far all suggest that the age of a tune has very little to do with it being considered "traditional" or not."
Thats because I have not said anything yet - back to being passed down the generations so far as I am concerned. But you need to know the distinction between an outright traditional tune and one that is recently composed but played by traditional musicians.
Remember the long debate I had on the definition of ITM?
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Kenny - I followed your line of thought and I agree with you. However just for the sake or argument, A tune could be erroneously introduced as an old traditional tune and spread quickly over the course of just a few months in this age of rapid communications. Look at the bloated tune bank of this web-site. Loads of original compositions could be quickly absorbed without the test of time - at least in theory - and be considered (rightly or wrongly) trad tunes.
Just throwing another log on the fires of a possibly interesting discussion...
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
A composer cannot write a traditional tune, he can only write a tune in the traditional style. It may become a traditional tune if enough people hear it, and if he writes very good tunes -- like O'Carolan -- they might get played despite not being in the traditional style.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Same old chestnut: define "traditional".
The dictionary definition is useless. Every cultural object: speech, music, dance, art, crafts, etc. etc. etc. has been transmitted from generation to generation.
So either "Irish traditional music" means the music that was traditionally played in ireland and transmitted from generation to generation - which is daft, because we couldn't add to it.
Or it means "whatever the players of ITM accept it to mean".
The second seems to make sense, particularly in the irish tradition (as opposed to other traditions where the "living" aspect is more doubtful) - and I believe it can be accepted, regardless of whether or not you believe, as I do, that what we are doing is not "traditional".
Having moved past that stumbling block (and disagreed, once again with ormepipes in the process), I am in agreement with Kenny, Jon and Will.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Kenny, who says we talk in circles here?
I'm with JNE on this. Today a tune can go viral and become accepted in sessions around the globe in a matter of weeks or even days. I've had that happen with my own tunes, even the ones that I don't think sound particularly traditional (see the comments for Bang Your Frog on the Sofa for a weird example).
The sense of "traditional" I'm most comfortable with includes a tune that gains acceptance by a wide scope of traditional players, that doesn't stray too far from traditional structure and idiom, and some span of time (to prevent fad tunes--e.g., Music for a Found Harmonium--from being labeled as traditional). But I don't know how to define these benchmarks. How long a time span? What are the traditional idioms? How wide an acceptance? Got me.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Will,
Why pick on "Music for a Found Harmonium" ? - it gets a lot of cover and may well last a generation or 2. If it does, it may well have become traditional in the process.
But that, for me, is what makes it a living tradition, New tunes are born and old ones die.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
"So either "Irish traditional music" means the music that was traditionally played in ireland and transmitted from generation to generation - which is daft, because we couldn't add to it."
Of course you can add to it - thats how it got there in the first place !! - the current generations are still writing tunes and adding to it. Its just a matter of time if it will "stick" and be passed down along with the rest.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Reelsnheels, I'm not sure how familiar you are with this music, but most of the posts above reflect the assumptions people have made that you are already aware of the basic definition of a 'traditional' tune, when you may not be. The most basic categoric distinction is that a traditional tune has no known or asserted author. This generally reflects that the tune is quite old.
What most people are writing about here are the myriad semantic (and mostly subjective) distinctions to be made between tunes that are written in a 'traditional' style, and that is an entirely different matter.
My own answer to your question would be that what makes a 'very traditional composer' is the ability to create new material which skilfully incorporates the motifs and idiomatic peculiarities of a particular musical genre. What makes, for me, a particularly good composer is the ability to do so in such a way that the music is instantly recognisable in its employment of those motifs and idioms, yet in its construction introduces new and unique ways of placing them together, surprising the listener who is familiar with the patterns and conventions of the music, yet satisfying the basic demands that those patterns and conventions create. It could essentially be seen in terms of re-using a number of unique and idiosyncratic building blocks, and creating from them a new building. In my personal opinion, a 'very traditional composer' doesn't imprint their own personality forcefully in the construction of tunes, so I would have to disagree with Kenny's assertion that Paddy Fahey is a 'very traditional composer'- his compositions, on the whole, are instantly recognisable as being uniquely his, despite being written from within the tradition. The Paddy O'Briens' compositions are likewise quite distinct, while perhaps Seán Ryan is the most 'traditional composer' of the four, in my entirely subjective opinion.
In terms of off-the-wall compositions, they are often recognisable as containing elements imported from other genres and traditions - such as Balkan scales or rhythms, or syncopated phrases, which are rare in traditional Irish music, unless they are part of a musical variation, or being used in a particular style of banjo playing. They may have one very distinct phrase, which doesn't bear any relation to other tunes in the idiom, and while these type of tunes sometimes become 'fashionable' for a few years, they tend to become dated, and go out of favour, permanently. 'Dusty Windowsills' is an obvious example from my experience.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I really don't care if a tune is modern or old, but some tunes grab me and some don't. Music For a New Found Harmonium does nothing for me. I give tunes a chance though because it depends on who is rendering them. I still have not heard a version of Harmonium or Wizards Walk that causes me to want to play them. So the technical sequence of notes does matter, but still for me it's the emotion and feel of a tune played by a good musician that causes me to be interested in a particular tune.
On another note, I think some musicians who have more technical training-- for example those with classical training seem to enjoy tunes that draw from obviously mechanical patterns like the the aforementioned tunes. It seems that they get pleasure out of the technical aspect of the music, more like it is an exercise. I have nothing against that mindset, it's just not something I enjoy.
And as far as rendering a tune, I do think that there are obvious differences between musicians of past generations and the modern era. Not so much in the age of the player, but in the way tunes are learned and played. I am not anti-notation in anyway, but it is interesting that in the computer age, many times the music is taking on a midi like mood rather than the earthiness or spiritual nature I hear in older generations. Of course there is no boundary line or clear cut differences. The variations of tunes and techniques is currently wide and I believe it is a healthy thing in the music.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
My opinion: there is a genre of music labelled as "Irish Traditional", but don't forget that this is just a label for a music idiom, one that musicians and listeners have formed some sort of tacit agreement on. How to define the boundaries of the genre is not agreed, as you see from the debates. The best you can probably say about a tune is that it is within the genre know as "Irish traditional", there is no agreed definition of what counts as traditional. I think players hanker over ideas of oral transmission, time, or common repetoire as contributory factors, but I really think its chasingf shadows. For example, if I found a manuscript with a tune written down by Micheal Coleman but not played now, and I have now way of knowing if it had been played or part of common repetoire at any time, would it be regarded as traditional?
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Smash the Windowsills, I don't agree with your premise that "traditional" begins with tunes that have no known author. Even many of the old (over 100 years) tunes we play do have known authors, and yet they are central to the traditional repertoire. Crowleys No. 1 and No. 2, many of Johnny Gorman's tunes, etc. It would be hard to claim that MacMahon's the Banshee isn't a traditional tune, eh?
But then I agree with the rest of your post completely.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Tunes which have no known composer are considered traditional for publishing purposes. If the composer is known, it should be credited to them.This is the most basic categorisation that can be made.
I was trying to make a helpful, concrete distinction to help the wee troll - I mean - student.
Everybody knows that the traditional ones are the ones you like, right?
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
LOL, well as corrupt and dysfunctional as the publishing industry is, their categorizations don't count for much to me. And even less when you learn the tunes by ear, not from published dots.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
This is certainly a thorny question if you think about it. Therefore it may be best to not think about it. Now that Irish music is an "industry", there's an awful lot of mediocre product (new tunes) being pumped into the market for purely commercial purposes. On the other hand, we can hardly expect new tunes to appear that are rooted in the deep sense of history and suffering that informed the music of the past few centuries in Ireland. I guess what I'm saying is perhaps the noodly, meaningless tunes being churned out these days are in fact an accurate representation of who we have become.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
@ Will: Lol, I was thinking more of music publishing. The little squiggly bit in the CD liner notes where it says (All tunes Trad. arr. Will Harmon, except what I wrote myself, on a beermat, in Lisdoonvarna, which definitely makes it tradtional, but I want the PRS royalties so I'm sticking my name to it).
@gwyguy: It seems unlikely that their music is in any way a representation of who we have become' If we have never commercially supported the composers of 'noodly, meaningless tunes', or listened to their offerings more than once.
@Llig: So you don't consider the more virtuosic of the hornpipes or, to be honest, quite a number of Paddy Fahey tunes, to be traditional then?
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Not to patronize anyone, but:
AFFECTATION
1. Behavior, speech, or writing that is artificial and designed to impress.
2. A studied display of real or pretended feeling: "an affectation of calm".
Perhaps Llig refers to a tune with a real story, a real history, and a lot of mileage in session play.
For me, this might refer to the feeling i get about certain tunes that I know precede my moment on this planet, and I know will out-endure me.
The first tunes I learned or heard in session seem very special. They need little elaboration, they are fundamentally brilliant to me.
Something like that, Llig?
I know I am grasping for the intangible...
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Ben - your link illustrates one of the confusing and frustrating things about "tune links" with this well meaning reference web-site.
Your Acrobat hornpipe is apparently also known The Nightingale - Then under recordings it lists An Historic Recording of Irish Music as an example. The problem is it's Sean Ryan's jig the Nightingale - a completely different tune. If you didn't know what you were looking for, you'd be thrown off the trail completely.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I mean that if you have either a genuine or artificiial desire to impress, your tunes will be dreadful. But more importantly, no amount of study will improve your tune writing.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Llig - that is a rather difficult theory to prove wouldn't you say? Are there any obvious examples of tune/song writing that come to mind? Weren't O'Carolan and Mozart both contracted by Royalty to write tunes specifically to "impress" a specific target audience? Didn't Lennon and McCartney write material to meant to sell?
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Sorta presumes you can know what the composer was thinking and feeling, in detail and intent, not just emotions ostensibly conveyed by the music.
But I'll agree that some music *sounds like* it was written to impress, even if that wasn't the composer's intent. Get enough people to agree to that interpretation and you might have a case for junking the tune?
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I'm saying that no amount of study of diddley tunes will improve your diddley tune writing.
Because pop songs are formulaic, if you study the form of pop songs, then you will be able to write good pop songs. But the best diddley tunes are not formulaic, they are the ones that break the formula. There's a feeling in this thread that the tunes that become traditional tunes do so because they follow the traditional formula. This may well be true for a lot of tunes, but these are invariably the bad tunes.
(It's worth noting here, of course, that any discussion of traditional tune v modern composition is a silly misunderstanding, as all the tunes were once modern compositions)
But the best tunes are beautifully crafted original compositions. And it's irrelevant when they were composed. And the worst tunes are those written to a formula, be it either it a recent trendy formula or an older more accepted one.
p.s., while breaking the formula is essential for good tune writing, it's not as essential as beautiful crafting and a lack of affectation.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Llig - where we agree is the fact that a good melody is timeless. The best diddley tunes have a certain musical hook that ingrains itself instantly upon your brain. It's what separates a good tune from the hordes of forgettable ones. Where we disagree is that it is not formulaic. It seems to me there is a highly rigid and very recognizable structure to this music that even a child can hear. Any idea that strays too far from this difficult to articulate but easily recognizable formula bumps it out of the genre.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I think the word afectation works because you can't know what the composer was thinking and feeling. It uncludes the caveat: "real or pretended feeling".
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I think you are right in that most people who learn tunes do so because they are impressed by them. (not withstanding the odd idiot who comes here asking for recomendations of tunes to learn, of course). However, I've learned far too many tunes I was impressed with in my ignorance.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Hmmm. I'm not usually "impressed" by tunes. Somehow that sounds too superficial for what happens when a tune makes me buzz at the molecular level. Reminds me of the quip from Martin Hayes that I repeat too often here: "The more a player tries to impress me, the less likely I'll be impressed." Same with tunes.
I know it sounds trite, but tunes are like friends. I don't latch on to people who impress me. It takes more than that, and longer to develop friendship. And you abide them even at their worst.
Also, the best tunes are surprising and inevitable, fresh and old.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Surely we can't be making an argument for learning unimpressive material ? - you know, loads of "same ish" sounding stuff that literaly leaves no impression upon you ?
Surely you work on the premise of "that sounds good to me" when your scouting for new tunes ?
Plus there is the thought that 99% of tunes that are'nt impressive are only so because they are being played badley?
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Yes you can. Sometimes you learn tunes for a certain purpose, for example for a certain dance whos tunes don't appeal but it's part of an overall thing, but surely overall you just like tunes you like the sound of, simple as that?
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I just don't think in terms of being impressed, or wanting to impress when I'm playing or listening to this music. It's not why I listen or play.
"
And some "plain" tunes go well before a "fancier" tune in a set.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I think that creating sets with a "plain" tune to contrast a "fancier" tune is lazy. All the best sets have tunes that fight each other for significance. and it's the fight that makes the set. Mere contrast is way too easy.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Yeah, I sometimes learn tunes for reasons other than mere pleasure ... I don't really mind it, or I wouldn't do it. but maybe secretly, I kind of resesnt it.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
In general I'd totally agree with you ormepipes but I've learnt many, many tunes I don't particularly like and I don't particularly mind learning them.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I guess I'm saying I like some tunes that others consider plain or overly simple. But to me they are great tunes.
And JNE gave my response to Michael's accusation of laziness. I'll leave Llig to fan at that loopy knuckle ball after having his senses dulled by my "plain" 95 mph fastball.
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
What about the traditional dancers wearing their traditional costumes?
Are they more traditional if they are made by old ladies with a needle and thread?
Is my traditional joinery polluted by modern glues and machinery?
Is traditional anything just the personal property of a few cranky geriatrics?
I am looking forward to the traditional responses.
Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Hi guys, I'm doing a project on composition within traditional music. According to "The Companion",
Composers and composition. Traditional musicians in the last half of the twentieth century have generally been distinguished between two types of tunes in the repertoire: ‘traditional’ tunes and modern compositions. (Vallely 1999)
My question is, simply this: What makes a tune 'traditional'?
And what makes one composer "a very traditional composer" and another seen as "completely outside the box"?
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by reelsnheels
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Hi guys, I'm doing a project on composition within traditional music. According to "The Companion",
Composers and composition. Traditional compositions in the last half of the twentieth century have generally been distinguished between two types of tunes in the repertoire: ‘traditional’ tunes and modern compositions. (Vallely 1999)
My question is, simply this: What makes a tune 'traditional'?
And what makes one composer "a very traditional composer" and another seen as "completely outside the box"?
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by reelsnheels
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
This is not a very widely popular view, I think, but I've come to the conclusion that - for me - a tune becomes more traditional by a process of oral transmission among the various instruments that are part of the tradition.
When a tune is written, it's generally written on one instrument, by one player, and then played by the player for others. So when it first appears, it has a lot of idisyncracies of the instrument and the player. As other players take up the tune on other instruments, they reshape it to their styles and their instruments, and they pass it on. The people who learn it from them do the same, and over time the tune becomes less about the composer and more about the people who have played it, and even (transitively) the people those players have been influenced by.
So for me, what makes a tune "traditional" is the application of the folk process.
That's not exactly what you were asking, of course - you were asking "what markers can we look for to determine whether a tune is or is not 'traditional'' but I think this leads you towards an answer, at least.
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Depends on what the composer wants to do, and possibly on what types of music they listen to and are influenced by. After that it's a matter of personal preference.
Composers in "traditional" style - [ in my opinion ] -
= Paddy Fahy, Charlie Lennon, John Brady, Paddy O'Brien
[ both of them ], Sean Ryan, and seeing as I've just posted an upcoming "Event", the late Jimmy McHugh .
"Outside the box" composers would generally be younger - Michael McGoldrick, Brian Finnegan, Emer Mayock, Seamus Egan. First ones which spring to mind.
What makes a tune "traditional" is acceptance by the traditional community of players, and time. The traditional composers I have mentioned above have already had their compositions accepted - and I would also include Finbarr Dwyer and Ed Reavy in that group, but , again in my opinion, they might have been considered "outside the box" at the time they composed their music. Their music has become "traditional" through acceptance.
How many compositions by the second group are still played in even 10 years time, we'll have to wait and see.
I will add one wee observation from Hammy Hamilton's Ballyvourney Flute gathering in April last year. There was one very telling point when a couple of flute-players from the continent started playing a few Michael McGoldrick tunes. None of the resident local players - who had been playing traditional Irish music all night - joined in, whether they chose not to, or simply didn't know the tunes, I don't know, but I found that quite interesting.
Good luck with your project, and please feel free to come back with any comment or question about what I've posted above. You've raised a very interesting point.
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by Kenny
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
The quick answer is that there is no such thing as a "traditional music composer", because we won't know if their tunes become accepted within the tradition for a generation or two.
However, there are definitely musicians working within the realms of traditional music who produce tunes that are quickly accepted as fitting within the field by their fellow musicians.
Otherwise, and also, see the replies above.
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Kenny, the corollary to the McGoldrick tunes story is when people launch into tunes at a session not realizing that they are fairly recent compositions. It may be apocryphal, but I've heard second-hand that Hammy Hamilton himself tells a story of walking into a pub and hearing his own jigs, the Kerfunteun and the Woodcock, being played, and then overhearing a conversation where one guy told another, "Those are old tunes, the names long forgotten."
Some "new" tunes are like that--they fit the idiom of "traditional" so well that most experienced players would not recognize them as "modern" unless they were told. Other tunes reach outside the tradition enough that we can tell they're "new." But it's not black and white. The White Petticoat sounds a bit "modern" to my ear, but it's been around a good 100 years at least. The music's always been influenced from outside. That's not a bad thing.
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1961
Will - see 4th comment.
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by Kenny
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I think a simple but tuneful melody, in one's style Scots / Irish , that keeps in your head. A tune which creates an steady dance music rhythm, for that is what this music was about after all. And a nice swing to it is good - But after That,,,
Fancy music Rhythms, Eastern African or the the tempo's of Islam - Then you start to move out of Celtic Traditional Music per-say.
{ I quite like the tempo's of Africa and Islam but in there own Traditional Tunes }
But I am taking it, its ITM you are asking about.
Also to many fancy note's mostly for show, or of a different Culture's style Like Jazz ( Which did a lot in my Twenties ) Thank God for Ben and Charlie Lennon,- lol..
*Where Enough is Enough,, And it still sound's Beautiful !
ITM should run with the Phrases like good Poetry, not syncopation like a gibbering Idiot..
( And I, play some of them tunes too )
But the young ones will do exactly what I done, and try to change everything in spite of all I have said here.
jim,,,
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
If it fits in a set, might be one criterion of acceptance. If the rhythm is congruent with the basic rhythms of trad, the tune is given at least a chance it might well not have otherwise.
For all that, being played by some famous band can cause tunes of quite different rhythms to be taken up, like the Balkan ones played by Planxty / Patrick Street. I wonder how long they'll stay in circulation. Possibly not as long as tunes like Happy Hours and J.B. Milne, which have a 'variety' feel but more conventional 4/4 or 2/4 rhythms; similarly, Music For A Found Harmonium, definitely 'variety'(!), which can go in a set of reels if one really wants it...it's not my favourite tune but it is a strong one, and I think it's here to stay.
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by nicholas
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Curious - the replies so far all suggest that the age of a tune has very little to do with it being considered "traditional" or not. For instance, if a new tune is introduced into a session and it fulfills the aural markers of the idiom, it could easily be passed off as an ancient traditional tune as illustrated in Harmon's Hammy Hamilton story.
So based on that story, a tune becomes traditional the moment it is accepted by those who play the music?
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
No, it just becomes "accepted" and only in that particular community. I specifically said that "time" was a factor in this process.
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by Kenny
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Jusa,
"Curious - the replies so far all suggest that the age of a tune has very little to do with it being considered "traditional" or not."
Thats because I have not said anything yet - back to being passed down the generations so far as I am concerned. But you need to know the distinction between an outright traditional tune and one that is recently composed but played by traditional musicians.
Remember the long debate I had on the definition of ITM?
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by ormepipes
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Kenny - I followed your line of thought and I agree with you. However just for the sake or argument, A tune could be erroneously introduced as an old traditional tune and spread quickly over the course of just a few months in this age of rapid communications. Look at the bloated tune bank of this web-site. Loads of original compositions could be quickly absorbed without the test of time - at least in theory - and be considered (rightly or wrongly) trad tunes.
Just throwing another log on the fires of a possibly interesting discussion...
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Ah yes - Ormepipes! I apologise for forgetting our recent sparring on that subject. (I still disagree with you by the way)
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
A composer cannot write a traditional tune, he can only write a tune in the traditional style. It may become a traditional tune if enough people hear it, and if he writes very good tunes -- like O'Carolan -- they might get played despite not being in the traditional style.
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by gam
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Same old chestnut: define "traditional".
The dictionary definition is useless. Every cultural object: speech, music, dance, art, crafts, etc. etc. etc. has been transmitted from generation to generation.
So either "Irish traditional music" means the music that was traditionally played in ireland and transmitted from generation to generation - which is daft, because we couldn't add to it.
Or it means "whatever the players of ITM accept it to mean".
The second seems to make sense, particularly in the irish tradition (as opposed to other traditions where the "living" aspect is more doubtful) - and I believe it can be accepted, regardless of whether or not you believe, as I do, that what we are doing is not "traditional".
Having moved past that stumbling block (and disagreed, once again with ormepipes in the process), I am in agreement with Kenny, Jon and Will.
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by Tirno
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Kenny, who says we talk in circles here?
I'm with JNE on this. Today a tune can go viral and become accepted in sessions around the globe in a matter of weeks or even days. I've had that happen with my own tunes, even the ones that I don't think sound particularly traditional (see the comments for Bang Your Frog on the Sofa for a weird example).
The sense of "traditional" I'm most comfortable with includes a tune that gains acceptance by a wide scope of traditional players, that doesn't stray too far from traditional structure and idiom, and some span of time (to prevent fad tunes--e.g., Music for a Found Harmonium--from being labeled as traditional). But I don't know how to define these benchmarks. How long a time span? What are the traditional idioms? How wide an acceptance? Got me.
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Will,
Why pick on "Music for a Found Harmonium" ? - it gets a lot of cover and may well last a generation or 2. If it does, it may well have become traditional in the process.
But that, for me, is what makes it a living tradition, New tunes are born and old ones die.
# Posted on January 3rd 2011 by ormepipes
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Heh, I picked on MFH because I loathe its gimmick-ridden hide.
We went through a phase of playing it here, some years ago. Thankfully we've all let it lapse from memory.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
See Will, we have to guard the tradition. Its only a matter of time before MFH creeps in and "The Bucks" is lost forever.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by ormepipes
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
"So either "Irish traditional music" means the music that was traditionally played in ireland and transmitted from generation to generation - which is daft, because we couldn't add to it."
Of course you can add to it - thats how it got there in the first place !! - the current generations are still writing tunes and adding to it. Its just a matter of time if it will "stick" and be passed down along with the rest.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by ormepipes
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Reelsnheels, I'm not sure how familiar you are with this music, but most of the posts above reflect the assumptions people have made that you are already aware of the basic definition of a 'traditional' tune, when you may not be. The most basic categoric distinction is that a traditional tune has no known or asserted author. This generally reflects that the tune is quite old.
What most people are writing about here are the myriad semantic (and mostly subjective) distinctions to be made between tunes that are written in a 'traditional' style, and that is an entirely different matter.
My own answer to your question would be that what makes a 'very traditional composer' is the ability to create new material which skilfully incorporates the motifs and idiomatic peculiarities of a particular musical genre. What makes, for me, a particularly good composer is the ability to do so in such a way that the music is instantly recognisable in its employment of those motifs and idioms, yet in its construction introduces new and unique ways of placing them together, surprising the listener who is familiar with the patterns and conventions of the music, yet satisfying the basic demands that those patterns and conventions create. It could essentially be seen in terms of re-using a number of unique and idiosyncratic building blocks, and creating from them a new building. In my personal opinion, a 'very traditional composer' doesn't imprint their own personality forcefully in the construction of tunes, so I would have to disagree with Kenny's assertion that Paddy Fahey is a 'very traditional composer'- his compositions, on the whole, are instantly recognisable as being uniquely his, despite being written from within the tradition. The Paddy O'Briens' compositions are likewise quite distinct, while perhaps Seán Ryan is the most 'traditional composer' of the four, in my entirely subjective opinion.
In terms of off-the-wall compositions, they are often recognisable as containing elements imported from other genres and traditions - such as Balkan scales or rhythms, or syncopated phrases, which are rare in traditional Irish music, unless they are part of a musical variation, or being used in a particular style of banjo playing. They may have one very distinct phrase, which doesn't bear any relation to other tunes in the idiom, and while these type of tunes sometimes become 'fashionable' for a few years, they tend to become dated, and go out of favour, permanently. 'Dusty Windowsills' is an obvious example from my experience.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I really don't care if a tune is modern or old, but some tunes grab me and some don't. Music For a New Found Harmonium does nothing for me. I give tunes a chance though because it depends on who is rendering them. I still have not heard a version of Harmonium or Wizards Walk that causes me to want to play them. So the technical sequence of notes does matter, but still for me it's the emotion and feel of a tune played by a good musician that causes me to be interested in a particular tune.
On another note, I think some musicians who have more technical training-- for example those with classical training seem to enjoy tunes that draw from obviously mechanical patterns like the the aforementioned tunes. It seems that they get pleasure out of the technical aspect of the music, more like it is an exercise. I have nothing against that mindset, it's just not something I enjoy.
And as far as rendering a tune, I do think that there are obvious differences between musicians of past generations and the modern era. Not so much in the age of the player, but in the way tunes are learned and played. I am not anti-notation in anyway, but it is interesting that in the computer age, many times the music is taking on a midi like mood rather than the earthiness or spiritual nature I hear in older generations. Of course there is no boundary line or clear cut differences. The variations of tunes and techniques is currently wide and I believe it is a healthy thing in the music.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by horatio spens the blademan
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
My opinion: there is a genre of music labelled as "Irish Traditional", but don't forget that this is just a label for a music idiom, one that musicians and listeners have formed some sort of tacit agreement on. How to define the boundaries of the genre is not agreed, as you see from the debates. The best you can probably say about a tune is that it is within the genre know as "Irish traditional", there is no agreed definition of what counts as traditional. I think players hanker over ideas of oral transmission, time, or common repetoire as contributory factors, but I really think its chasingf shadows. For example, if I found a manuscript with a tune written down by Micheal Coleman but not played now, and I have now way of knowing if it had been played or part of common repetoire at any time, would it be regarded as traditional?
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by portnasaol
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Smash the Windowsills, I don't agree with your premise that "traditional" begins with tunes that have no known author. Even many of the old (over 100 years) tunes we play do have known authors, and yet they are central to the traditional repertoire. Crowleys No. 1 and No. 2, many of Johnny Gorman's tunes, etc. It would be hard to claim that MacMahon's the Banshee isn't a traditional tune, eh?
But then I agree with the rest of your post completely.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Will Harmon
Stretch..and yawn...
Yawn!
Just get down the pub and play!
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Tunes which have no known composer are considered traditional for publishing purposes. If the composer is known, it should be credited to them.This is the most basic categorisation that can be made.
I was trying to make a helpful, concrete distinction to help the wee troll - I mean - student.
Everybody knows that the traditional ones are the ones you like, right?
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
LOL, well as corrupt and dysfunctional as the publishing industry is, their categorizations don't count for much to me.
And even less when you learn the tunes by ear, not from published dots.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
This is certainly a thorny question if you think about it. Therefore it may be best to not think about it. Now that Irish music is an "industry", there's an awful lot of mediocre product (new tunes) being pumped into the market for purely commercial purposes. On the other hand, we can hardly expect new tunes to appear that are rooted in the deep sense of history and suffering that informed the music of the past few centuries in Ireland. I guess what I'm saying is perhaps the noodly, meaningless tunes being churned out these days are in fact an accurate representation of who we have become.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by gwyguy
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
What makes a tune traditional? Quite simply, a lack of affectation.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by ...
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
@ Will: Lol, I was thinking more of music publishing. The little squiggly bit in the CD liner notes where it says (All tunes Trad. arr. Will Harmon, except what I wrote myself, on a beermat, in Lisdoonvarna, which definitely makes it tradtional, but I want the PRS royalties so I'm sticking my name to it).
@gwyguy: It seems unlikely that their music is in any way a representation of who we have become' If we have never commercially supported the composers of 'noodly, meaningless tunes', or listened to their offerings more than once.
@Llig: So you don't consider the more virtuosic of the hornpipes or, to be honest, quite a number of Paddy Fahey tunes, to be traditional then?
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Not to patronize anyone, but:
AFFECTATION
1. Behavior, speech, or writing that is artificial and designed to impress.
2. A studied display of real or pretended feeling: "an affectation of calm".
Perhaps Llig refers to a tune with a real story, a real history, and a lot of mileage in session play.
For me, this might refer to the feeling i get about certain tunes that I know precede my moment on this planet, and I know will out-endure me.
The first tunes I learned or heard in session seem very special. They need little elaboration, they are fundamentally brilliant to me.
Something like that, Llig?
I know I am grasping for the intangible...
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Piece
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Speaking of hornpipes & tunes which have received some mileage check out the comments ~ http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3459
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Ben Steen
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Ben - your link illustrates one of the confusing and frustrating things about "tune links" with this well meaning reference web-site.
Your Acrobat hornpipe is apparently also known The Nightingale - Then under recordings it lists An Historic Recording of Irish Music as an example. The problem is it's Sean Ryan's jig the Nightingale - a completely different tune. If you didn't know what you were looking for, you'd be thrown off the trail completely.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I meant writing that is artificial and designed to impress. A studied display of real or pretended feeling.
More specifically, studied writing that portrays a feeling (real or pretend) that is designed to impress.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by ...
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I mean that if you have either a genuine or artificiial desire to impress, your tunes will be dreadful. But more importantly, no amount of study will improve your tune writing.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by ...
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Llig - that is a rather difficult theory to prove wouldn't you say? Are there any obvious examples of tune/song writing that come to mind? Weren't O'Carolan and Mozart both contracted by Royalty to write tunes specifically to "impress" a specific target audience? Didn't Lennon and McCartney write material to meant to sell?
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I'm talking about diddley music, not pop music
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by ...
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Hmm. OK. But when it comes to musical creativity and its motives, I'm not so sure you can split hairs like that.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Sorta presumes you can know what the composer was thinking and feeling, in detail and intent, not just emotions ostensibly conveyed by the music.
But I'll agree that some music *sounds like* it was written to impress, even if that wasn't the composer's intent. Get enough people to agree to that interpretation and you might have a case for junking the tune?
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I'm saying that no amount of study of diddley tunes will improve your diddley tune writing.
Because pop songs are formulaic, if you study the form of pop songs, then you will be able to write good pop songs. But the best diddley tunes are not formulaic, they are the ones that break the formula. There's a feeling in this thread that the tunes that become traditional tunes do so because they follow the traditional formula. This may well be true for a lot of tunes, but these are invariably the bad tunes.
(It's worth noting here, of course, that any discussion of traditional tune v modern composition is a silly misunderstanding, as all the tunes were once modern compositions)
But the best tunes are beautifully crafted original compositions. And it's irrelevant when they were composed. And the worst tunes are those written to a formula, be it either it a recent trendy formula or an older more accepted one.
p.s., while breaking the formula is essential for good tune writing, it's not as essential as beautiful crafting and a lack of affectation.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by ...
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Right so Will. That brings us full circle back to Music for a Boned Farmonium, I believe.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Llig - where we agree is the fact that a good melody is timeless. The best diddley tunes have a certain musical hook that ingrains itself instantly upon your brain. It's what separates a good tune from the hordes of forgettable ones. Where we disagree is that it is not formulaic. It seems to me there is a highly rigid and very recognizable structure to this music that even a child can hear. Any idea that strays too far from this difficult to articulate but easily recognizable formula bumps it out of the genre.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Surely you are impressed by the tunes you want to learn ? Thats what makes you want to learn them is'nt it ?
Or have I missed something - as usual !
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by ormepipes
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I think the word afectation works because you can't know what the composer was thinking and feeling. It uncludes the caveat: "real or pretended feeling".
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by ...
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I think you are right in that most people who learn tunes do so because they are impressed by them. (not withstanding the odd idiot who comes here asking for recomendations of tunes to learn, of course). However, I've learned far too many tunes I was impressed with in my ignorance.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by ...
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Hmmm. I'm not usually "impressed" by tunes. Somehow that sounds too superficial for what happens when a tune makes me buzz at the molecular level. Reminds me of the quip from Martin Hayes that I repeat too often here: "The more a player tries to impress me, the less likely I'll be impressed." Same with tunes.
I know it sounds trite, but tunes are like friends. I don't latch on to people who impress me. It takes more than that, and longer to develop friendship. And you abide them even at their worst.
Also, the best tunes are surprising and inevitable, fresh and old.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
It's much more to do with the approach of the player rather than the order of the notes IMO
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by bogman
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Surely we can't be making an argument for learning unimpressive material ? - you know, loads of "same ish" sounding stuff that literaly leaves no impression upon you ?
Surely you work on the premise of "that sounds good to me" when your scouting for new tunes ?
Plus there is the thought that 99% of tunes that are'nt impressive are only so because they are being played badley?
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by ormepipes
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Yes you can. Sometimes you learn tunes for a certain purpose, for example for a certain dance whos tunes don't appeal but it's part of an overall thing, but surely overall you just like tunes you like the sound of, simple as that?
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by bogman
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I just don't think in terms of being impressed, or wanting to impress when I'm playing or listening to this music. It's not why I listen or play.
"
And some "plain" tunes go well before a "fancier" tune in a set.
# Posted on January 4th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I think that creating sets with a "plain" tune to contrast a "fancier" tune is lazy. All the best sets have tunes that fight each other for significance. and it's the fight that makes the set. Mere contrast is way too easy.
# Posted on January 5th 2011 by ...
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Yeah, I sometimes learn tunes for reasons other than mere pleasure ... I don't really mind it, or I wouldn't do it. but maybe secretly, I kind of resesnt it.
# Posted on January 5th 2011 by ...
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I NEVER learn tunes I don't like - sometime I don't get around to learning the tunes that I do like.
There are too many good tunes, and life is too short !!
# Posted on January 5th 2011 by ormepipes
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Yep, grumpy as I may well be about the majority of tunes being crap, at least there are so many tunes that there's more than enough good ones.
# Posted on January 5th 2011 by ...
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
- And some plain tunes go well before a fancier tune in a set..."
Spoken like a true ex-pitcher Harmon. Using a fastball to set up the off-speed. I like it...
# Posted on January 5th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
In general I'd totally agree with you ormepipes but I've learnt many, many tunes I don't particularly like and I don't particularly mind learning them.
# Posted on January 5th 2011 by bogman
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Bogman,
You must ask yourself, whats the point of that ? - unless you have ulterior motives for learning them perhaps ?
# Posted on January 5th 2011 by ormepipes
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Yes, like playing for ceilidhs, or dancers just for example.
# Posted on January 5th 2011 by bogman
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
Not that many of these aren't great tunes but there are many I would never have learned for pleasure.
# Posted on January 5th 2011 by bogman
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I guess I'm saying I like some tunes that others consider plain or overly simple. But to me they are great tunes.
And JNE gave my response to Michael's accusation of laziness. I'll leave Llig to fan at that loopy knuckle ball after having his senses dulled by my "plain" 95 mph fastball.
# Posted on January 5th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
What about the traditional dancers wearing their traditional costumes?
Are they more traditional if they are made by old ladies with a needle and thread?
Is my traditional joinery polluted by modern glues and machinery?
Is traditional anything just the personal property of a few cranky geriatrics?
I am looking forward to the traditional responses.
# Posted on January 5th 2011 by mcknowall
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
I never said simple tunes can't be great tunes. All these tunes are simple. This music is simple.
# Posted on January 5th 2011 by ...
Re: Traditional tune v. Modern Compositions, What makes a tune "traditional"?
"All these tunes are simple"
Oh dear, am I in trouble !!!
Perhaps I should take up golf after all then ?
# Posted on January 6th 2011 by ormepipes