Hi,
I am a new box player and am enjoying it immensely!
I am exploring the use of the basses and chords to add in to some tunes that I have learned. I find that the bellow loses air quickly when a bass oe chord is played and I quickly run out of space. Are there some techniques to help with this? I have been trying to Make effective use of the bellow release button to help give me added bellows space. Sometimes, if I am running out of room on the push, I will use the bellow release button on the pull note to give added space. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot!
Try quickly punching the bass and chord rather than "playing it". If you listen to Irish players you will find very few--none?--give the bass the kind of heft found in other music. Irish tunes have a flow--especially on the BC--that doesn't lend easily to the diatonic bass. So the lighter the better. My advice is not to use the bass constantly in any case. And worry first about learning the treble tunes. For most jigs and reels just getting the tunes up to speed will be hard enough without paying too much attention to the bass.
Bellows control, I think, is difficult to teach -at least, what I know about it isn't easily stated. What I can tell you is to try playing with as little movement as possible - use a very light touch. It's tempting to use a lot of muscle to get "more sound" but try to find the lightest pressure that'll get you a good tone and use that.
I find that this actually makes my melody playing sound a lot better. I suppose it's because I'm not working as hard, and I can be more nimble - or something.
In any case, that tends to leave me playing a lot closer in, which sounds like it would help you as well.
I'm not much of a player on the basses, but maybe someone else will chime in with good advice on that part.
I am working on the tune The Musical Priest which has as many as 6 notes in a row on the pull. I find that I am running out of bellow room. One technique I try is to do a quick release on the bellows button on a push note to restore some room. Any suggestions are helpful regarding bellow control for the treble or the bass notes. I just notice that control while playing on the left side adds an extra challenge.
By the way, the earlier suggestions posted are quite good.
--trying to play with a lighter touch
--playing the bass notes for a short duration
Keep the suggestions coming. If anyone knows of a book or DVD that addresses this technique, I would like to know.
Happy New Years to all my ITM fans
Economic use of the bellows comes/improves with experience. The more/longer you play, the less air you will need, basses included.
If you watch experienced box players you will notice that they often play with barely noticeable bellows movements. Only rarely do they have to extend the bellows to their full length. Very little air is actually needed to make the reeds speak (this depends obviously on the quality of the instrument). As a beginner, one tends to make wider bellows movements and use more air than necessary as the fine motor skills that control these movements are not fully developed yet.
Also - and that is definitely not meant as advice to play faster at this point - but the faster you play, the shorter the notes are, the less air you need. And speed will also come somewhere down the road. Therefore, just keep at it. Things will fall into place sooner or later.
The outer row sports a B on the push, and an E on the pull, that can be quite handy in balancing the air flow, many beginners just play those notes on the inner row and miss an opportunity. Also, the air button works quite well when you are playing notes, look for opportunities to use it as the melody permits.
Air management is something that feels quite tricky at first, but after a while, you realize that you aren't struggling with it any more.
Thanks for the comments which are all helpful. I just discovered the E on the pull this week and will look for the B on the push. I am learning that certain notes and basses can balance each other out. Also, I have tried using the air button when playing notes to restore some space on the bellows. It is good to hear that this is a good technique. I have found that my bellows control is getting better with practice and speed. I will keep on practicing. It is good to know that all things will continue to get better with practice.
I agree with AlBrown Make more use of the repeat notes B and E. On a B/C I often use the tune The Athol Highlanders in Key A to demonstrate how you can run out of bellows very easy, yet by using the repeat notes and correct use of air valve you can play the tune quite comfortably without your left arm disappearing out the door. The fact that you are a relatively new player and consequently inclined to hang on to notes while your brain is deciding what buttons to press next is also a disadvantage. We all went through that stage, I know I did anyway.
While you should certainly be aware of the spare E and B, I don't personally find them very useful, except for the high e on the draw. There just aren't a lot of tunes where I want an E on the draw at the bottom of the tune, or a B on the push. The high e on the draw, I use quite a bit, of course, but the others just don't really fit with the flow of the tune very often, and that flow of the tune is (to me) the point of playing B/C.
Here's a good test tune for you: how do you typically play Sullivan's polka?
|: a2 a>f | ec a>f | ec a>f | ec BA | a2 a>f | ec a2 | ce B>c| BA A2 :|
|: ce ec | df fA | ce eA | cB AB | ce eA | df f2 | ce B>c | BA A2 :|
I play the A part entirely on the draw except for those little f#'s, which are really not enough to make a difference at all. When I get to the long f# in the B part, I gain back most of the bellows, and then I recover the rest on the second one.
I tried for a long time to make some of the e's in the A part into push notes, but that never worked for me. Rhythmically, the tune just didn't work when I played it that way.
How do the other box players here handle this one?
Jon, Sullivan's in A works very well almost all on the pull, and sounds great that way, but I use push E's here and there to balance the bellows. When I do it, the phrasing does work a little differently, not quite as smooth as the all pull.
In fact, A tunes in general have some great phrasing available all on the pull, which makes them fun to play once you get that air thing worked out!
one of the best things about B/C is the apparent redundancy of the bass buttons. I moved from DG to BC years ago and only now after several years of no basses, am I attempting to use the left hand buttons. It is possible to imitate English DG style if you've got modern Irish basses, but frankly, why bother?
Katen Tweed's use of the piano box's left hand buttons is a fine example of good taste in Irish box music - she seems to use the bass chords in the way that a good piper uses the registers to provide occasional chorded drones. I am striving to do that kind of thing with my 8 bass buttons
hard to do, but infinitely superior to rumpy-pumpy vamping
Ooops, just played Sullivan's and it turns out that I play it with the pull Es, and get my air out of the bellows by hitting the air button every time I hit an F#. Now, the B part of Maids of Ardagh, that one works great with a pull E, but I found that I had to throw a few push Es into the mix just to get some air out of the bellows. Should have played the tune before answering Jon's question.
I think it's the only approach you can take if you want to be able to put a decent pulse into the melody
when I played DG my left hand vamping dictated bellows pressure both by bieeding big quantities of air and by l/h finger keying prompting left arm push or pull - in effect, the basses drove everything and as long as the right hand keying was just good enough, the thing rolled along ok-ish.
I had to re-learn right hand technique to play BC, and gradually I am becoming able to cope with playing short light left hand chords without destroying the rhythm carried by the right hand
Bellows Control on BC Box
Bellows Control on BC Box
Hi,
I am a new box player and am enjoying it immensely!
I am exploring the use of the basses and chords to add in to some tunes that I have learned. I find that the bellow loses air quickly when a bass oe chord is played and I quickly run out of space. Are there some techniques to help with this? I have been trying to Make effective use of the bellow release button to help give me added bellows space. Sometimes, if I am running out of room on the push, I will use the bellow release button on the pull note to give added space. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot!
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Steve 53
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
Try quickly punching the bass and chord rather than "playing it". If you listen to Irish players you will find very few--none?--give the bass the kind of heft found in other music. Irish tunes have a flow--especially on the BC--that doesn't lend easily to the diatonic bass. So the lighter the better. My advice is not to use the bass constantly in any case. And worry first about learning the treble tunes. For most jigs and reels just getting the tunes up to speed will be hard enough without paying too much attention to the bass.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by nfldbox
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
Bellows control, I think, is difficult to teach -at least, what I know about it isn't easily stated. What I can tell you is to try playing with as little movement as possible - use a very light touch. It's tempting to use a lot of muscle to get "more sound" but try to find the lightest pressure that'll get you a good tone and use that.
I find that this actually makes my melody playing sound a lot better. I suppose it's because I'm not working as hard, and I can be more nimble - or something.
In any case, that tends to leave me playing a lot closer in, which sounds like it would help you as well.
I'm not much of a player on the basses, but maybe someone else will chime in with good advice on that part.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
... as nfidbox did while I was writing that...
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
I am working on the tune The Musical Priest which has as many as 6 notes in a row on the pull. I find that I am running out of bellow room. One technique I try is to do a quick release on the bellows button on a push note to restore some room. Any suggestions are helpful regarding bellow control for the treble or the bass notes. I just notice that control while playing on the left side adds an extra challenge.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by Steve 53
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
By the way, the earlier suggestions posted are quite good.
--trying to play with a lighter touch
--playing the bass notes for a short duration
Keep the suggestions coming. If anyone knows of a book or DVD that addresses this technique, I would like to know.
Happy New Years to all my ITM fans
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by Steve 53
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
Economic use of the bellows comes/improves with experience. The more/longer you play, the less air you will need, basses included.
And speed will also come somewhere down the road. Therefore, just keep at it. Things will fall into place sooner or later.
If you watch experienced box players you will notice that they often play with barely noticeable bellows movements. Only rarely do they have to extend the bellows to their full length. Very little air is actually needed to make the reeds speak (this depends obviously on the quality of the instrument). As a beginner, one tends to make wider bellows movements and use more air than necessary as the fine motor skills that control these movements are not fully developed yet.
Also - and that is definitely not meant as advice to play faster at this point - but the faster you play, the shorter the notes are, the less air you need.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by heike
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
The outer row sports a B on the push, and an E on the pull, that can be quite handy in balancing the air flow, many beginners just play those notes on the inner row and miss an opportunity. Also, the air button works quite well when you are playing notes, look for opportunities to use it as the melody permits.
Air management is something that feels quite tricky at first, but after a while, you realize that you aren't struggling with it any more.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
Thanks for the comments which are all helpful. I just discovered the E on the pull this week and will look for the B on the push. I am learning that certain notes and basses can balance each other out. Also, I have tried using the air button when playing notes to restore some space on the bellows. It is good to hear that this is a good technique. I have found that my bellows control is getting better with practice and speed. I will keep on practicing. It is good to know that all things will continue to get better with practice.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by Steve 53
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
A friend of mine told me, "When I was learning, the only place I could play was in the netty. Great for bellows control."
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by gam
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
What is the netty? I would like to try it....possibly. Lol
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by Steve 53
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
http://www.fotosearch.com/bigcomp.asp?path=CSP/CSP041/k0410469.jpg
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by gam
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
I agree with AlBrown Make more use of the repeat notes B and E. On a B/C I often use the tune The Athol Highlanders in Key A to demonstrate how you can run out of bellows very easy, yet by using the repeat notes and correct use of air valve you can play the tune quite comfortably without your left arm disappearing out the door. The fact that you are a relatively new player and consequently inclined to hang on to notes while your brain is deciding what buttons to press next is also a disadvantage. We all went through that stage, I know I did anyway.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by Free Reed
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
While you should certainly be aware of the spare E and B, I don't personally find them very useful, except for the high e on the draw. There just aren't a lot of tunes where I want an E on the draw at the bottom of the tune, or a B on the push. The high e on the draw, I use quite a bit, of course, but the others just don't really fit with the flow of the tune very often, and that flow of the tune is (to me) the point of playing B/C.
Here's a good test tune for you: how do you typically play Sullivan's polka?
|: a2 a>f | ec a>f | ec a>f | ec BA | a2 a>f | ec a2 | ce B>c| BA A2 :|
|: ce ec | df fA | ce eA | cB AB | ce eA | df f2 | ce B>c | BA A2 :|
I play the A part entirely on the draw except for those little f#'s, which are really not enough to make a difference at all. When I get to the long f# in the B part, I gain back most of the bellows, and then I recover the rest on the second one.
I tried for a long time to make some of the e's in the A part into push notes, but that never worked for me. Rhythmically, the tune just didn't work when I played it that way.
How do the other box players here handle this one?
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
Jon, Sullivan's in A works very well almost all on the pull, and sounds great that way, but I use push E's here and there to balance the bellows. When I do it, the phrasing does work a little differently, not quite as smooth as the all pull.
In fact, A tunes in general have some great phrasing available all on the pull, which makes them fun to play once you get that air thing worked out!
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
one of the best things about B/C is the apparent redundancy of the bass buttons. I moved from DG to BC years ago and only now after several years of no basses, am I attempting to use the left hand buttons. It is possible to imitate English DG style if you've got modern Irish basses, but frankly, why bother?
Katen Tweed's use of the piano box's left hand buttons is a fine example of good taste in Irish box music - she seems to use the bass chords in the way that a good piper uses the registers to provide occasional chorded drones. I am striving to do that kind of thing with my 8 bass buttons
hard to do, but infinitely superior to rumpy-pumpy vamping
# Posted on January 2nd 2011 by millionyears_bc
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
Ooops, just played Sullivan's and it turns out that I play it with the pull Es, and get my air out of the bellows by hitting the air button every time I hit an F#. Now, the B part of Maids of Ardagh, that one works great with a pull E, but I found that I had to throw a few push Es into the mix just to get some air out of the bellows. Should have played the tune before answering Jon's question.
# Posted on January 2nd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
And millionyears, I like the same kind of approach to basses that you are advocating, a nice sound.
# Posted on January 2nd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Bellows Control on BC Box
cheers Al
I think it's the only approach you can take if you want to be able to put a decent pulse into the melody
when I played DG my left hand vamping dictated bellows pressure both by bieeding big quantities of air and by l/h finger keying prompting left arm push or pull - in effect, the basses drove everything and as long as the right hand keying was just good enough, the thing rolled along ok-ish.
I had to re-learn right hand technique to play BC, and gradually I am becoming able to cope with playing short light left hand chords without destroying the rhythm carried by the right hand
# Posted on January 2nd 2011 by millionyears_bc