There are good & bad things about guitar for Irish tunes. The main thing is it's a bit limited by playing relatively fixed pitches; due to being fretted. Irish melodies aren't necessarily so restricted. So, I suppose the good news is when a guitar player recognizes the melodic limitations & doesn't try to hard, but uses what the the instrument does have ~ rhythm, harmony, bits of melody.
The limitations of relatively fixed pitch on the guitar aren't as significant as the lack of sustain, which makes percussive stringed instruments like banjo, mandolin and guitar less suited to traditional Irish music than other fixed pitch instruments like accordion and concertina.
Dick, those guys you're playing with are good. ;)
I liked what Séamus Begley said as well.
I was trying to channel Jim Murray's words, or something to that effect, on a question I posted recently. If you missed it here's a couple of responses which I got a kick out of; http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/26223/comments#comment554550
Posted on December 14th 2010 by Solidmahog
Bit of a two edged sword here. It's one thing for just a few musicians to play some tunes & the guitar, or guitars, playing melody; but if John Doyle comes into a session (or any guitarist who knows the tunes) you probably won't hear as much melody being played by him. It depends.
You won't hear much melody being played by guitarists in sessions, unless they are at a pretty small, quiet session. The instrument just doesn't produce that much volume. But (I will probably get flack for saying this) sessions are not the be-all and end-all of Irish trad music.
Clearly, there are some people who might prefer the Guitar to sit quietly in the corner of every session, minding its own business & sticking to the 3 chord trick.
The reviewer of this CD is of course entitled to his opinion, but I must say, I don't understand his remark regarding Randal Bays.
"Then there’s the reference to ‘Irish guitarists’ which must sadly exclude one of the nine participants on this album, Randal Bays."
I hope that perhaps he has misunderstood what the author of the notes meant, when he used the expression 'Irish Guitarist', for the way I read that, he was referring to musicians who play Irish Music on their Guitar.
The way I see it, Irish Music has received a massive contribution from many wonderful exponents, who just happened to be born away from Ireland.
For example, does anyone here not consider the likes of Liz Carroll, Mike McGoldrick, Andy Irvine, Alec Finn, Kevin Burke etc etc to be Irish Musicians?
They are all surely masters of Irish Music, as is Randal Bays.
That point aside though, it's taken the likes of the Concertina & Accordion maybe 100 years to break through the glass ceiling & finally be accepted as mainstream Irish instruments ... by most folks at least.
So how many more years do you think fretted instruments have to wait?
P.S. I must apologise to the reviewer because, looking at the list of Guitarists on that CD I notice that it also includes Dennis Cahill, who was of course also born in the U.S. so his point clearly had nothing to do with nationality.
So I'm just not sure why Randal Bays was singled out in this review.
I pick tunes on the guitar, but as others have said I seldom find an opportunity to bring this out in a session. Even in a very small session, the sound is easily overwhelmed. That being said, just last week I found myself playing a few sets with a fiddler I'd just met, and it was great fun.
If I were more serious about guitar as a melody instrument, I'd probably look into a National or other steel or resonator instrument. That woud probably work pretty well for the tunes, but of course you couldn't play rhythm on it without really working on the science of restraint. It would be fun, though, and I may try it some day. I also have a notion that it would be fun to flatpick the tunes with another guitarist, but that's another thing that will have to wait until the opportunity comes around. Too busy lately for new projects...
Geoff'll probably be along in a minute to defend himself ... but, having read that review, I don't read it as anti-guitar. Maybe I've read it wrong, but it reads to me like the main thing Geoff is questioning is the apparent assertion that the guitar has achieved some kind of parity with other instruments as a *melody* instrument in Irish music. And, whether you think it should or not, it clearly hasn't yet. So surely Geoff's question is valid, isn't it?
Well I have just had a listen to the clips on Amazon. A shame they are not longer. I think I have seen the cd in the shops before but will definitely see if I can pick up a copy at Celtic Connections this year. It sounds great. I would love to be able to play melody on the guitar like that.
Having been insulted so unpleasantly by NCFA, and having, for the second time in a couple of days, had a review of mine posted by Ptarmigan just so that he can slag me off, I'm not going to bother responding to any criticisms.
This guitar review is almost five years old. Why draw attention to it now?
I'd be surprised if there are any guitar players out there who have a repertoire (of tunes they can play as melodies) as large as that of, say, a typical accomplished fiddler or flautist.
As far as repertiore of guitarists is concerned you may be right Dave although it is a bit of a generality. Randal Bays and John Doyle, for example, are also both accomplished fiddlers.
I know my own repertoire of tunes on the guitar is hopelessly limited. I also accept that the guitar is not geared towards playing melody in the same way as the fiddle is - it is not as easy. But that is all the more reason why I take my hat off to those guys who are so good at it.
I started using "the guitar as a melody instrument in irish trad music" about thirty-five years ago, but it still feels just a bit like a novelty. If I were a young person just starting out today, I probably wouldn't feel that way, but back when I did start out flat-picking the tunes, the only other guitar players I heard playing Irish tunes were a few bluegrass guys who had little understanding of the music. Today, there are plenty of people who make it work.
I've played fingerstyle tunes in sessions, but I usually just feel smothered by the other instruments. Fingerstyle guitar mainly lives in its own world, more like the harp than the fiddle.
I've just been listening to the CD in question. I've liked some of the tracks as they've come up in my "trad" shuffle on iTunes, but I've never listened to the whole thing straight through.
Honestly, I don't think I will again. There are some good cuts, but less than half of the record is really interesting, and Seamie O'Dowd's bit with the electric guitar is just terrible. It's an interesting record, mostly as evidence of the compiler's view of the state of the guitar as a melody instrument, but not a good record.
Saying this makes me think about the stuff that I've tried to do with the guitar, and whether I think I could do much better. Don't know, but if until I'm convinced that I've got more to offer than this, I don't think I'll really see my guitar picking as anything more than a party trick.
I just listened to the samples from that album and I'm inclined to largely agree with Jon. It seems to be a fairly dull album and not representative of, well, anything relevant to the conversation.
Well I've been down the road of knocking tunes out on the guitar (and still do, if I have 15 mins) and whilst I've been able to use it to a degree, at a rip roarer you are having a laugh if you think it's stand up!
Solo, or in a duet, that works fine, a little melodic break from within a larger ensemble, perhaps. But unless your mic'd up it's the tiled bathroom brother, with everyone else playing in the cupboard at the end of the hall, for balance. The realisation that if I wanted to progress with melody I'd have to move it out of the bathroom, happened in a bathroom ffs.
I love the guitar, but as a trad instrument, and although it has a voice, it's not on a par with pipes fiddle box flute whistle. It's what I'd call a no brainer.
I never amassed the tunes a dedicated melody player amassed playing the guitar in a lot of years playing that sort of thing. But whilst there are those that have, I couldn't fill my fingers and toes with them, off the top of my head. Yet I could name you countless half decent melody players, without naming a well ken't one, who'd carry a session, solo.
So despite loving it tooo bits, and actually having done a bit, I think the guitar is sh*te for melody at a session. A xylophone and amp seems to be the way ahead : ) Or perhaps thats just the deuchars talking?
@ Jon: "Even in a very small session, the sound is easily overwhelmed."
Jon perhaps I'm luckier than most, but my regular sessions up here are usually made up of no more than 4 or 5 players, so as long as the crowd isn't too noisy, my Tenor Guitar blends in quite nicely.
@ ethical blend "having read that review, I don't read it as anti-guitar."
Well this sentence is hardly what you would call a celebration of the role of the Guitar in Irish Music today:
"Overall, listening to this CD feels like a dumbing-down experience and makes one wish for a sudden incursion by a fiddler or piper or anyone who can take control of a tune and drag it from the guitarist’s hands into a more meaningful world."
I know the reviewer is not alone, but his attitude here makes me wonder what he thinks of an instrument like a Harp. I've seen a few comments by members here which make me think some folks would rather see only Pipes, Fiddles & Flutes being allowed to play Irish Music & that no other instrument is capable of contributing. If you carry this attitude over to orchestras, you would have to turf out most of the orchestral instruments because they are not capable of playing all the Violin solo parts! Sounds pretty daft to me!
@ No Cause For Alarm "will definitely see if I can pick up a copy" .... me too!
@ MacCruiskeen "having, for the second time in a couple of days, had a review of mine posted by Ptarmigan just so that he can slag me off, I'm not going to bother responding to any criticisms."
I cannot understand why someone who writes such forceful & negative reviews, is not prepared to defend their statements & debate with others who perhaps don't happen to share his views. If those who write such reviews have the freedom of speech to write their opinions, surely the readers should have a right to reply?
@ No Cause For Alarm "... I also accept that the guitar is not geared towards playing melody in the same way as the fiddle is"
&
@ DaveL35 "I'd be surprised if there are any guitar players out there who have a repertoire (of tunes they can play as melodies) as large as that of, say, a typical accomplished fiddler or flautist."
Well of course lads, a Tenor Guitar is, so any Tenor Banjo player could sit & play all his tunes all night on one of those babies!
@ Bob himself "I've played fingerstyle tunes in sessions, but I usually just feel smothered by the other instruments. Fingerstyle guitar mainly lives in its own world, more like the harp than the fiddle."
Well Bob, Harps are regular features at most of the weekly sessions I attend & as far as I can see they fit in just fine, given the fact that the players are well able to accompany the tunes all night long, so I must say reject the notion that the Harp should not be part of mainstream Irish Trad.
Similarly, I don't see why the Guitar, shouldn't feature as a melody instrument at any session which suits it?
@ Jon & Bob. You guys seem to feel that the Masters CD is pretty dull, but I must say, I liked what I heard, but then I am a big fan of Carolan Music too. Personally speaking, I just can't cope with full tilt, non stop Reels all night. I think every session requires light & shade. Surely Irish Music has much more to offer than just the fast & furious, 4/4, in yer face stuff. If that's all there was, I'd have given it up & taken up Jazz, years ago!
@ Solidmahog " ... it's not on a par with pipes fiddle box flute whistle."
I don't think anyone is claiming that it is, but I would argue, unlike many here, that it does have a voice & one that has every right to be heard, wherever Irish Music is being played.
>Jon perhaps I'm luckier than most, but my regular sessions up here are usually made up of no more than 4 or 5 players, so as long as the crowd isn't too noisy, my Tenor Guitar blends in quite nicely
Lucky you. Not my experience, but that's why there's more than one of us, isn't it?
>You guys seem to feel that the Masters CD is pretty dull, but I must say, I liked what I heard, but then I am a big fan of Carolan Music too.
I like carolan's tunes, most of them at least (the Concerto has gotten pretty old for me - sounds like half-baked Vivaldi to me now). I just don't like what was done with them on this record. Some of the picking on the reel sets had a little life to it, but the slow stuff didn't really carry its weight, for me.
I think it's maybe an occupational hazard of guitarists, to assume that we're all as fascinated by the details of the tone of the instrument as they are. I don't care much - okay, it's a pretty guitar. Now show me something about the tune that I hadn't heard before.
>I would argue, unlike many here, that it does have a voice & one that has every right to be heard, wherever Irish Music is being played.
I don't know that there's a question of rights. It's a fun instrument to pick tunes on, most people find that it's not much fun to play the melody if neither you nor anybody else hears it, so most people find it's not much fun to play in a session. When I do pick a tune at a session, people seem to like it a lot, but I'm well aware that they have to stop playing to listen to it, and they're not there to hear me play a lot of solos, so I save it for an occasional thing.
The idea of a "right" to be heard seems oddly placed here. Especially odd since you assign the right to the instrument, and not to the player. What does it mean? It almost sounds like you think somoene's trying to stop the guitar from being heard, but nothing like that has been suggested, so I'm confused.
I have nothing but respect for John Doyle & his playing. I'm merely saying he has developed a variety of playing styles depending on who he plays with, whether it might be Liz Carroll, Tim O'Brien, or the local session...
Compared to the other instruments guitar is a bit quiet. I think it is best used for chordal accompaniment but what I think and what somebody else thinks can be at polar opposites. I wouldn't have any problem in a smaller session for a guitarist to play melody with us but I think it really shines for chords.
(It's a bit late and I haven't read any of the other posts so sorry if i'm merely restating what's already been said.)
Amazing the strong opinions here! And quite the coincidence in that I just received my copy of Randal Bays' new GUITAR recording, "Oyster Light". I've never in my life heard anything so brilliant, and I believe it will be a classic recording. I've admired his fiddling for years and bought the guitar album on the strength of that, but I'm seriously floored by the melodic beauty of his guitar work, all played with the fingers rather than a flat pick. Has anyone else heard this yet? It's just come out in the last month or so.
Maybe in time the guitar in Irish music will find it's own niche. As I understand it this time 100 years ago there was very little in the repertoire of classical guitar and then along came Andres Segovia and a whole new musical genre was uncovered. Likewise jazz music did'nt exist at that time. Whoever heard of tenor guitar being used to play jigs and reels even ten years ago, until the recordings of John Carty and Brian McGrath. McGrath's beautiful rendition of Thrush In The Morning will surely inspire some guitarist/s somewhere to develop their ideas. Obviously the guitar is too quiet an instrument, and in my opinion tonally incompatible, to fit in as a melody instrument at sessions. Perhaps it will develop it's own body of music, a little bit like the harp. But I can tell you as someone who has spent a considerable amount of my life devoted to playing acoustic guitar it is a most joyous thing to play traditional music on an acoustic guitar.
Just as everyone else here has their likes & dislikes, I too am not very keen, shall we say, on the Rock & Roll style of funked up, heavy rhythmic, let's drown everybody else out style of thwacking, which some Guitarists employ at sessions. However, I would never wish to condemn them all, just because I didn't enjoy the playing of a few. Especially as there are so many tasteful players out there who I do enjoy listening to ... & playing with.
As for my orchestra analogy, you seem to have missed my point.
We often read here that the golden instruments e.g. Pipes, Fiddle Flute are what Irish Music is all about & that beginners shouldn't try & learn to play the music on any instruments except the golden ones, because you can't really play the music properly on any of the rest.
So all I'm saying is that all those so-called less regarded instruments really do add colour & character to the music & can carry the tune & so really do deserve their place at the table.
The Music clearly would not be the same without them. Just like if you were to take away all those lesser instruments from the orchestra, like the "Bassoons, tubas and timps", think how much of the overall sound would be lost. It would surely be less rich, as would Irish Music.
So clearly, I wasn't suggesting for a moment that we should see more, or rather any , Bassoons, Tubas and timps at our sessions.
Anyway, I hope that helps to clear up my position here eb.
Perhaps it is a hobby horse of mine, you may be right, but I prefer to think of it as a soap box.
You see, my wife's horse is looking in the window at me as I write this & there's no way you'd ever get me up on that thing!
Ah. So your point was the rather circuar one that all instruments have their place in Irish music that have a place in Irish music. However that is defined, and whoever defines it.
I really don't want to argue with you, Ptarmigan - you seem too nice a bloke, and clearly are too god a musician, for me to want to argue with.
Not at all eb, it's just that I do think that Guitars have, by now, earned their place. Simple as that really.
As for other Johnny come lately instruments, I reckon the jury is probably still out! ...... but that's a whole 'nother discussion!
... & hey, no need for an argument, we're just having a wee discussion here & the fact that I play this music doesn't automatically make me right, but I am entitled to my opinion, however left field or off the wall that may be!
Anyway, Happy New Year to you & all Irish Musicians .... sorry, players of Irish Music!
It's always struck me, coming from a musical (if not necessarily a musically accomplished) family, that the truly traditional thing to do is to make music with whatever it is that you happen to have to hand. You do this because it's fun, and it's sociable, and you love the songs and tunes. You do it because you can't not; because it's in you.
I certainly can't imagine the circumstance where I wouldn't play with a guitarist because of their instrument, although I can imagine circumstances where you might want to have a quiet word with someone about what they're doing.
guitars and mandolins in particular and to a lesser extent banjos have been around just as long as fiddles, violas and the like so it is inevitable that they have been used in trad. i would be amazed if they werent. and yes they do get drowned out the more instruments you have playing, but what they do provide is a constant chordal background which smooths transitions and the like when others quieten down. and on a personal note i quite like a toned rhythm beat out with palm muting and barr chords. but hey thats me. and besides most gigs have a lot of lead instruments in my opinion and most could do with some rhythm stuff thrown in.
There is no reason not to learn to play tunes on a guitar if you are so inclined, but as others have pointed out you may struggle to hear yourself in all but the quietest session which may or may not be a consideration for you.
But if you like the guitar sound and want to primarily play tunes then I think Dick's suggestion of tenor guitar is a good one. As a non-guitarist I'm prepared to be shot down by guitar players here, but in my (possibly underinformed opinion) the fifths tuning on tenor guitar will make it much more suited for playing trda melodies. That doesn't make the guira unsuited, but it does mean that it will be much easier on tenor guitar.
OTOH if you really like guitar and want to play a mix of accomp and the occasional tune in quiet sessions/at home then no reason not to go for a guitar.
Modestly chipping in, I feel Red Menace has it right, about playing with whatever instruments (and companions) are at hand. I was the only one in my very musical family who did not play, and I took it up as an adult. But the rest of em never seemed to bother much about exactly what instruments they had to work with, just thundered away on whatever was around. My dad used to try to play reels on the clarinet sometimes. It sounded horrid but he enjoyed himself all right.
I started out as a guitarist but don't really play very many tunes on it. I save it for my fiddle or tenor banjo. Guitar is very much a "fingering" oriented instrument. To learn tunes you have to memorize finger positions by rote and I tend to have less mental association with the actual notes being played as I would on fiddle or banjo. You don't really get into the heart and soul of Irish music on the guitar but it is helpful if you end up being a guitarist at a session because of too many fiddlers already at the session it is helpful to be able to start tunes, so I often have the first line or part of a tune worked out to be picked on the guitar.
"Well Bob, Harps are regular features at most of the weekly sessions I attend & as far as I can see they fit in just fine, given the fact that the players are well able to accompany the tunes all night long, so I must say reject the notion that the Harp should not be part of mainstream Irish Trad."
Dick, I'll join you in rejecting that notion. By the way, who proposed it? I somehow missed that.
*My* point was that both fingerstyle guitar and harp, as melody instruments, are more at home in solo playing or very small, relatively quiet ensembles than in flying through jigs and reels along with the fiddles and boxes in a session. I'm not stating a preference so much as acknowledging the physical difficulty.
"Similarly, I don't see why the Guitar, shouldn't feature as a melody instrument at any session which suits it?"
Jon - Sometimes I feel like all guitar playing is a party trick. So many people can play "a little," and mastering the damned thing is so hard that when you manage to pull off a decent rendition of a brisk tune, it often feels like a novelty.
Dick - I liked your clip with the tenor guitar. Have you tried using a six-stringer in a session?
The human voice is the first instrument in all musical kingdoms.
The guitar is the king of the instruments in kingdom of Irish music.
The banjo is the prime minister.
The mandolin is the queen.
The octave mandolin is the prince.
The tenor guitar is the princess.
The pipes are the chief ambassador.
The melodeon is the duke.
The concertina is the duchess.
The piano accordion is the knight.
The whistle is the earl.
The bodhran is the baron.
The harmonica is the jester.
All other instruments not in this list are the commoners.
All instruments in the Irish music kingdom are recommended to play melodies in the commoner keys of D, G, A, Bm, Em, Am, and sometimes F, C, or Dm, when played in an ensemble in a public house.
The superior instruments shall play melodies and chords simultaneously in all of these commoner keys in this setting.
The most superior instruments shall play melodies and chords in any key,
whenever possible.
earl i dont understand what you mean by a guitar being harder to learn. there is a certain number of frets and notes and scales everythings else is just a shift. whereas a fiddle has no frets therefore you need to memorize a certain position and even a sleight of hand will throw it off. and in order to be able to learn a tune without being physically shown it you need to learn exactly where each and every note is or learn to sight read sheet music. that and virtually every movement you make affects your playing. im not saying one is better than the other but fundamentally a fiddle is harder to learn than a guitar. and bob himself i totally agree with the fact that too many people play a "bit" and far too much it is just parlor tricks when people pick one up. it is often too much hassle to trawl through the mundane to hear somebody really good play.
I have enough of a guilt complex from playing the Fiddle for over 30 years & never having any desire or inclination to ever move out of 1st position & so wasting all that potential from the other 2/3rds of the fingerboard! ..... not really!
Seriously though, I do love to hear the subtle harmonic sounds which add so much to a session, when played by a really good Guitar player, but I have never had any desire to go down that road myself. I would feel like a bit of a phoney though, just using 4 of the 6 strings ... like never using the Regulators on Uilleann Pipes, or the Basses on a Melodeon or Accordion!
However, with the Tenor Guitar, when I'm playing tunes & just bunging in few double stops here & there, I feel like I'm getting closer to fulfilling one of the instruments main functions.
I must confess though, I'm not that keen on the Heavy Metal, 'Dunk Chick', rhythmic thwacking brand of Guitar playing. It somehow sounds grand for Shetland Music, but IMHO is so often just surplus to requirements, when it comes to good Irish Music .... but then that's just me.
The learning curve for fiddle is steep in the beginning, but eventually settles down to a more tolerable incline. The curve for guitar starts out gently but gets steep farther down the line. Which is harder? That depends on the desired destination (and, yes, I know we never truly arrive). Based on decades of observation and personal experience, I figure that for a guitarist to achieve a level of technical ease, fluidity and interpretative control comparable to a good fiddler is significantly harder. That's why it's so rare.
halfwaythere, Did you deliberately leave out the fiddle, and relegate it to commoner status? A rather provocative stand to take, if that was intentional.
Hey Al. Now I know that at least one person noticed,
albeit someone who plays titled instruments.
It was intentional, and I guess you could say provocative, but
in jest of course....
guitar in irish trad music
guitar in irish trad music
how many of you out there would regard the guitar as a melody instrument in irish trad music?
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Oscar music
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Arty McGlynn & Nollaig Casey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqYeTtKTtQw
Arty McGlynn & Paul Brady
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzE439U5iMI
Arty McGlynn & Steve Cooney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv0z0OyMB9U&feature=related
Tony McManus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLVsrlObxO8&feature=related
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: guitar in irish trad music
There are good & bad things about guitar for Irish tunes. The main thing is it's a bit limited by playing relatively fixed pitches; due to being fretted. Irish melodies aren't necessarily so restricted. So, I suppose the good news is when a guitar player recognizes the melodic limitations & doesn't try to hard, but uses what the the instrument does have ~ rhythm, harmony, bits of melody.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Arty McGlynn, Nollaig Casey, Breda Smyth & Jim Higgins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS2H8HHM8HE&feature=related
The limitations of relatively fixed pitch on the guitar aren't as significant as the lack of sustain, which makes percussive stringed instruments like banjo, mandolin and guitar less suited to traditional Irish music than other fixed pitch instruments like accordion and concertina.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Seamus Begley and Jim Murray.
This works very well for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRgBJla5xpM&feature=related
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by overbeyond
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Séamus Begley & Tim Edey!
http://vimeo.com/18293509
Angelina Carberry and Martin Quinn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSDTqPu9gUU
I've even had a wee bash at it myself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PDeeOzELIU
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Amen to Jim Murray's words of wisdom at the start of that clip.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Dick, those guys you're playing with are good. ;)
I liked what Séamus Begley said as well.
I was trying to channel Jim Murray's words, or something to that effect, on a question I posted recently. If you missed it here's a couple of responses which I got a kick out of;
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/26223/comments#comment554550
Posted on December 14th 2010 by Solidmahog
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Donal Clancy, John Doyle are other notable players of melody on guitars. Check out the Shanachie CD, Masters of the Irish Guitar.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Bit of a two edged sword here. It's one thing for just a few musicians to play some tunes & the guitar, or guitars, playing melody; but if John Doyle comes into a session (or any guitarist who knows the tunes) you probably won't hear as much melody being played by him. It depends.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: guitar in irish trad music
You won't hear much melody being played by guitarists in sessions, unless they are at a pretty small, quiet session. The instrument just doesn't produce that much volume. But (I will probably get flack for saying this) sessions are not the be-all and end-all of Irish trad music.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: guitar in irish trad music
http://www.thesessionsarenotthebe-allandend-allofIrishtradmusic.org
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Clearly, there are some people who might prefer the Guitar to sit quietly in the corner of every session, minding its own business & sticking to the 3 chord trick.
For example this reviewer of the CD 'Masters of the Irish Guitar':
http://www.irishmusicreview.com/motig.htm
If you are interested, you can listen to clips from each track of that CD here & judge for yourself:
http://www.amazon.com/Masters-Irish-Guitar-Various-Artists/dp/B000CQO1BQ
The reviewer of this CD is of course entitled to his opinion, but I must say, I don't understand his remark regarding Randal Bays.
"Then there’s the reference to ‘Irish guitarists’ which must sadly exclude one of the nine participants on this album, Randal Bays."
I hope that perhaps he has misunderstood what the author of the notes meant, when he used the expression 'Irish Guitarist', for the way I read that, he was referring to musicians who play Irish Music on their Guitar.
The way I see it, Irish Music has received a massive contribution from many wonderful exponents, who just happened to be born away from Ireland.
For example, does anyone here not consider the likes of Liz Carroll, Mike McGoldrick, Andy Irvine, Alec Finn, Kevin Burke etc etc to be Irish Musicians?
They are all surely masters of Irish Music, as is Randal Bays.
That point aside though, it's taken the likes of the Concertina & Accordion maybe 100 years to break through the glass ceiling & finally be accepted as mainstream Irish instruments ... by most folks at least.
So how many more years do you think fretted instruments have to wait?
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: guitar in irish trad music
"but if John Doyle comes into a session...you probably won't hear as much melody being played by him."
Really? How do you know that? Have you been lucky enough to play in a session with him?
It depends? It depends on what?
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: guitar in irish trad music
P.S. I must apologise to the reviewer because, looking at the list of Guitarists on that CD I notice that it also includes Dennis Cahill, who was of course also born in the U.S. so his point clearly had nothing to do with nationality.
So I'm just not sure why Randal Bays was singled out in this review.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Maybe he didn't realise Cahill was American. Maybe him just having an Irish name was enough.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: guitar in irish trad music
I pick tunes on the guitar, but as others have said I seldom find an opportunity to bring this out in a session. Even in a very small session, the sound is easily overwhelmed. That being said, just last week I found myself playing a few sets with a fiddler I'd just met, and it was great fun.
If I were more serious about guitar as a melody instrument, I'd probably look into a National or other steel or resonator instrument. That woud probably work pretty well for the tunes, but of course you couldn't play rhythm on it without really working on the science of restraint. It would be fun, though, and I may try it some day. I also have a notion that it would be fun to flatpick the tunes with another guitarist, but that's another thing that will have to wait until the opportunity comes around. Too busy lately for new projects...
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: guitar in irish trad music
"it's taken the likes of the Concertina & Accordion maybe 100 years to break through the glass ceiling" ......... more like 150 years!
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Geoff'll probably be along in a minute to defend himself ... but, having read that review, I don't read it as anti-guitar. Maybe I've read it wrong, but it reads to me like the main thing Geoff is questioning is the apparent assertion that the guitar has achieved some kind of parity with other instruments as a *melody* instrument in Irish music. And, whether you think it should or not, it clearly hasn't yet. So surely Geoff's question is valid, isn't it?
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Well I have just had a listen to the clips on Amazon. A shame they are not longer. I think I have seen the cd in the shops before but will definitely see if I can pick up a copy at Celtic Connections this year. It sounds great. I would love to be able to play melody on the guitar like that.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Frankly, Ben,
Having been insulted so unpleasantly by NCFA, and having, for the second time in a couple of days, had a review of mine posted by Ptarmigan just so that he can slag me off, I'm not going to bother responding to any criticisms.
This guitar review is almost five years old. Why draw attention to it now?
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: guitar in irish trad music
I'd be surprised if there are any guitar players out there who have a repertoire (of tunes they can play as melodies) as large as that of, say, a typical accomplished fiddler or flautist.
I'm more than happy to be shown to be wrong here.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by DaveL35
Re: guitar in irish trad music
As far as repertiore of guitarists is concerned you may be right Dave although it is a bit of a generality. Randal Bays and John Doyle, for example, are also both accomplished fiddlers.
I know my own repertoire of tunes on the guitar is hopelessly limited. I also accept that the guitar is not geared towards playing melody in the same way as the fiddle is - it is not as easy. But that is all the more reason why I take my hat off to those guys who are so good at it.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: guitar in irish trad music
I started using "the guitar as a melody instrument in irish trad music" about thirty-five years ago, but it still feels just a bit like a novelty. If I were a young person just starting out today, I probably wouldn't feel that way, but back when I did start out flat-picking the tunes, the only other guitar players I heard playing Irish tunes were a few bluegrass guys who had little understanding of the music. Today, there are plenty of people who make it work.
I've played fingerstyle tunes in sessions, but I usually just feel smothered by the other instruments. Fingerstyle guitar mainly lives in its own world, more like the harp than the fiddle.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: guitar in irish trad music
I've just been listening to the CD in question. I've liked some of the tracks as they've come up in my "trad" shuffle on iTunes, but I've never listened to the whole thing straight through.
Honestly, I don't think I will again. There are some good cuts, but less than half of the record is really interesting, and Seamie O'Dowd's bit with the electric guitar is just terrible. It's an interesting record, mostly as evidence of the compiler's view of the state of the guitar as a melody instrument, but not a good record.
Saying this makes me think about the stuff that I've tried to do with the guitar, and whether I think I could do much better. Don't know, but if until I'm convinced that I've got more to offer than this, I don't think I'll really see my guitar picking as anything more than a party trick.
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: guitar in irish trad music
I just listened to the samples from that album and I'm inclined to largely agree with Jon. It seems to be a fairly dull album and not representative of, well, anything relevant to the conversation.
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Bob himself
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Bob - are you saying that my guitar picking is just a party trick? How dare you?
(sorry, I guess this belonged in the "let's start a war" thread)
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Well I've been down the road of knocking tunes out on the guitar (and still do, if I have 15 mins) and whilst I've been able to use it to a degree, at a rip roarer you are having a laugh if you think it's stand up!
Solo, or in a duet, that works fine, a little melodic break from within a larger ensemble, perhaps. But unless your mic'd up it's the tiled bathroom brother, with everyone else playing in the cupboard at the end of the hall, for balance. The realisation that if I wanted to progress with melody I'd have to move it out of the bathroom, happened in a bathroom ffs.
I love the guitar, but as a trad instrument, and although it has a voice, it's not on a par with pipes fiddle box flute whistle. It's what I'd call a no brainer.
I never amassed the tunes a dedicated melody player amassed playing the guitar in a lot of years playing that sort of thing. But whilst there are those that have, I couldn't fill my fingers and toes with them, off the top of my head. Yet I could name you countless half decent melody players, without naming a well ken't one, who'd carry a session, solo.
So despite loving it tooo bits, and actually having done a bit, I think the guitar is sh*te for melody at a session. A xylophone and amp seems to be the way ahead : ) Or perhaps thats just the deuchars talking?
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: guitar in irish trad music
@ Jon: "Even in a very small session, the sound is easily overwhelmed."
Jon perhaps I'm luckier than most, but my regular sessions up here are usually made up of no more than 4 or 5 players, so as long as the crowd isn't too noisy, my Tenor Guitar blends in quite nicely.
@ ethical blend "having read that review, I don't read it as anti-guitar."
Well this sentence is hardly what you would call a celebration of the role of the Guitar in Irish Music today:
"Overall, listening to this CD feels like a dumbing-down experience and makes one wish for a sudden incursion by a fiddler or piper or anyone who can take control of a tune and drag it from the guitarist’s hands into a more meaningful world."
I know the reviewer is not alone, but his attitude here makes me wonder what he thinks of an instrument like a Harp. I've seen a few comments by members here which make me think some folks would rather see only Pipes, Fiddles & Flutes being allowed to play Irish Music & that no other instrument is capable of contributing. If you carry this attitude over to orchestras, you would have to turf out most of the orchestral instruments because they are not capable of playing all the Violin solo parts! Sounds pretty daft to me!
@ No Cause For Alarm "will definitely see if I can pick up a copy" .... me too!
@ MacCruiskeen "having, for the second time in a couple of days, had a review of mine posted by Ptarmigan just so that he can slag me off, I'm not going to bother responding to any criticisms."
I cannot understand why someone who writes such forceful & negative reviews, is not prepared to defend their statements & debate with others who perhaps don't happen to share his views. If those who write such reviews have the freedom of speech to write their opinions, surely the readers should have a right to reply?
@ No Cause For Alarm "... I also accept that the guitar is not geared towards playing melody in the same way as the fiddle is"
&
@ DaveL35 "I'd be surprised if there are any guitar players out there who have a repertoire (of tunes they can play as melodies) as large as that of, say, a typical accomplished fiddler or flautist."
Well of course lads, a Tenor Guitar is, so any Tenor Banjo player could sit & play all his tunes all night on one of those babies!
@ Bob himself "I've played fingerstyle tunes in sessions, but I usually just feel smothered by the other instruments. Fingerstyle guitar mainly lives in its own world, more like the harp than the fiddle."
Well Bob, Harps are regular features at most of the weekly sessions I attend & as far as I can see they fit in just fine, given the fact that the players are well able to accompany the tunes all night long, so I must say reject the notion that the Harp should not be part of mainstream Irish Trad.
Similarly, I don't see why the Guitar, shouldn't feature as a melody instrument at any session which suits it?
@ Jon & Bob. You guys seem to feel that the Masters CD is pretty dull, but I must say, I liked what I heard, but then I am a big fan of Carolan Music too. Personally speaking, I just can't cope with full tilt, non stop Reels all night. I think every session requires light & shade. Surely Irish Music has much more to offer than just the fast & furious, 4/4, in yer face stuff. If that's all there was, I'd have given it up & taken up Jazz, years ago!
@ Solidmahog " ... it's not on a par with pipes fiddle box flute whistle."
I don't think anyone is claiming that it is, but I would argue, unlike many here, that it does have a voice & one that has every right to be heard, wherever Irish Music is being played.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: guitar in irish trad music
>Jon perhaps I'm luckier than most, but my regular sessions up here are usually made up of no more than 4 or 5 players, so as long as the crowd isn't too noisy, my Tenor Guitar blends in quite nicely
Lucky you. Not my experience, but that's why there's more than one of us, isn't it?
>You guys seem to feel that the Masters CD is pretty dull, but I must say, I liked what I heard, but then I am a big fan of Carolan Music too.
I like carolan's tunes, most of them at least (the Concerto has gotten pretty old for me - sounds like half-baked Vivaldi to me now). I just don't like what was done with them on this record. Some of the picking on the reel sets had a little life to it, but the slow stuff didn't really carry its weight, for me.
I think it's maybe an occupational hazard of guitarists, to assume that we're all as fascinated by the details of the tone of the instrument as they are. I don't care much - okay, it's a pretty guitar. Now show me something about the tune that I hadn't heard before.
>I would argue, unlike many here, that it does have a voice & one that has every right to be heard, wherever Irish Music is being played.
I don't know that there's a question of rights. It's a fun instrument to pick tunes on, most people find that it's not much fun to play the melody if neither you nor anybody else hears it, so most people find it's not much fun to play in a session. When I do pick a tune at a session, people seem to like it a lot, but I'm well aware that they have to stop playing to listen to it, and they're not there to hear me play a lot of solos, so I save it for an occasional thing.
The idea of a "right" to be heard seems oddly placed here. Especially odd since you assign the right to the instrument, and not to the player. What does it mean? It almost sounds like you think somoene's trying to stop the guitar from being heard, but nothing like that has been suggested, so I'm confused.
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: guitar in irish trad music
No Cause, I'm not sure why you're asking. But yes, John Doyle has played in a session I was at following a concert he gave with Liz Carroll.
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Ben Steen
...
I have nothing but respect for John Doyle & his playing. I'm merely saying he has developed a variety of playing styles depending on who he plays with, whether it might be Liz Carroll, Tim O'Brien, or the local session...
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Compared to the other instruments guitar is a bit quiet. I think it is best used for chordal accompaniment but what I think and what somebody else thinks can be at polar opposites. I wouldn't have any problem in a smaller session for a guitarist to play melody with us but I think it really shines for chords.
(It's a bit late and I haven't read any of the other posts so sorry if i'm merely restating what's already been said.)
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by WishiwasIrish
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Amazing the strong opinions here! And quite the coincidence in that I just received my copy of Randal Bays' new GUITAR recording, "Oyster Light". I've never in my life heard anything so brilliant, and I believe it will be a classic recording. I've admired his fiddling for years and bought the guitar album on the strength of that, but I'm seriously floored by the melodic beauty of his guitar work, all played with the fingers rather than a flat pick. Has anyone else heard this yet? It's just come out in the last month or so.
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by gwyguy
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Maybe in time the guitar in Irish music will find it's own niche. As I understand it this time 100 years ago there was very little in the repertoire of classical guitar and then along came Andres Segovia and a whole new musical genre was uncovered. Likewise jazz music did'nt exist at that time. Whoever heard of tenor guitar being used to play jigs and reels even ten years ago, until the recordings of John Carty and Brian McGrath. McGrath's beautiful rendition of Thrush In The Morning will surely inspire some guitarist/s somewhere to develop their ideas. Obviously the guitar is too quiet an instrument, and in my opinion tonally incompatible, to fit in as a melody instrument at sessions. Perhaps it will develop it's own body of music, a little bit like the harp. But I can tell you as someone who has spent a considerable amount of my life devoted to playing acoustic guitar it is a most joyous thing to play traditional music on an acoustic guitar.
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Just as everyone else here has their likes & dislikes, I too am not very keen, shall we say, on the Rock & Roll style of funked up, heavy rhythmic, let's drown everybody else out style of thwacking, which some Guitarists employ at sessions. However, I would never wish to condemn them all, just because I didn't enjoy the playing of a few. Especially as there are so many tasteful players out there who I do enjoy listening to ... & playing with.
, Bassoons, Tubas and timps at our sessions.
As for my orchestra analogy, you seem to have missed my point.
We often read here that the golden instruments e.g. Pipes, Fiddle Flute are what Irish Music is all about & that beginners shouldn't try & learn to play the music on any instruments except the golden ones, because you can't really play the music properly on any of the rest.
So all I'm saying is that all those so-called less regarded instruments really do add colour & character to the music & can carry the tune & so really do deserve their place at the table.
The Music clearly would not be the same without them. Just like if you were to take away all those lesser instruments from the orchestra, like the "Bassoons, tubas and timps", think how much of the overall sound would be lost. It would surely be less rich, as would Irish Music.
So clearly, I wasn't suggesting for a moment that we should see more, or rather any
Anyway, I hope that helps to clear up my position here eb.
Perhaps it is a hobby horse of mine, you may be right, but I prefer to think of it as a soap box.
You see, my wife's horse is looking in the window at me as I write this & there's no way you'd ever get me up on that thing!
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: guitar in irish trad music
@ gwyguy Excellent! Thanks for the nod!
Randal Bays: Oyster Light!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oyster-Light-Randal-Bays/dp/B004FNBX5Y
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Ah. So your point was the rather circuar one that all instruments have their place in Irish music that have a place in Irish music. However that is defined, and whoever defines it.
I really don't want to argue with you, Ptarmigan - you seem too nice a bloke, and clearly are too god a musician, for me to want to argue with.
I remain
Yours puzzlingly
Eb
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by ethical blend
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Not at all eb, it's just that I do think that Guitars have, by now, earned their place. Simple as that really.
As for other Johnny come lately instruments, I reckon the jury is probably still out! ...... but that's a whole 'nother discussion!
... & hey, no need for an argument, we're just having a wee discussion here & the fact that I play this music doesn't automatically make me right, but I am entitled to my opinion, however left field or off the wall that may be!
Anyway, Happy New Year to you & all Irish Musicians .... sorry, players of Irish Music!
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: guitar in irish trad music
It's always struck me, coming from a musical (if not necessarily a musically accomplished) family, that the truly traditional thing to do is to make music with whatever it is that you happen to have to hand. You do this because it's fun, and it's sociable, and you love the songs and tunes. You do it because you can't not; because it's in you.
I certainly can't imagine the circumstance where I wouldn't play with a guitarist because of their instrument, although I can imagine circumstances where you might want to have a quiet word with someone about what they're doing.
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Red Menace
Re: guitar in irish trad music
guitars and mandolins in particular and to a lesser extent banjos have been around just as long as fiddles, violas and the like so it is inevitable that they have been used in trad. i would be amazed if they werent. and yes they do get drowned out the more instruments you have playing, but what they do provide is a constant chordal background which smooths transitions and the like when others quieten down. and on a personal note i quite like a toned rhythm beat out with palm muting and barr chords. but hey thats me. and besides most gigs have a lot of lead instruments in my opinion and most could do with some rhythm stuff thrown in.
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by christofloffer
Re: guitar in irish trad music
There is no reason not to learn to play tunes on a guitar if you are so inclined, but as others have pointed out you may struggle to hear yourself in all but the quietest session which may or may not be a consideration for you.
But if you like the guitar sound and want to primarily play tunes then I think Dick's suggestion of tenor guitar is a good one. As a non-guitarist I'm prepared to be shot down by guitar players here, but in my (possibly underinformed opinion) the fifths tuning on tenor guitar will make it much more suited for playing trda melodies. That doesn't make the guira unsuited, but it does mean that it will be much easier on tenor guitar.
OTOH if you really like guitar and want to play a mix of accomp and the occasional tune in quiet sessions/at home then no reason not to go for a guitar.
- chris
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Modestly chipping in, I feel Red Menace has it right, about playing with whatever instruments (and companions) are at hand. I was the only one in my very musical family who did not play, and I took it up as an adult. But the rest of em never seemed to bother much about exactly what instruments they had to work with, just thundered away on whatever was around. My dad used to try to play reels on the clarinet sometimes. It sounded horrid but he enjoyed himself all right.
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by gwyguy
Re: guitar in irish trad music
d gitar is A 1
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Oeidipus
Re: guitar in irish trad music
I started out as a guitarist but don't really play very many tunes on it. I save it for my fiddle or tenor banjo. Guitar is very much a "fingering" oriented instrument. To learn tunes you have to memorize finger positions by rote and I tend to have less mental association with the actual notes being played as I would on fiddle or banjo. You don't really get into the heart and soul of Irish music on the guitar but it is helpful if you end up being a guitarist at a session because of too many fiddlers already at the session it is helpful to be able to start tunes, so I often have the first line or part of a tune worked out to be picked on the guitar.
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: guitar in irish trad music
"Well Bob, Harps are regular features at most of the weekly sessions I attend & as far as I can see they fit in just fine, given the fact that the players are well able to accompany the tunes all night long, so I must say reject the notion that the Harp should not be part of mainstream Irish Trad."
Dick, I'll join you in rejecting that notion. By the way, who proposed it? I somehow missed that.
*My* point was that both fingerstyle guitar and harp, as melody instruments, are more at home in solo playing or very small, relatively quiet ensembles than in flying through jigs and reels along with the fiddles and boxes in a session. I'm not stating a preference so much as acknowledging the physical difficulty.
"Similarly, I don't see why the Guitar, shouldn't feature as a melody instrument at any session which suits it?"
Shirley you don't think I disagree with that.
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Bob himself
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Don't call me Shirley!!!
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by AlBrown
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Jon - Sometimes I feel like all guitar playing is a party trick. So many people can play "a little," and mastering the damned thing is so hard that when you manage to pull off a decent rendition of a brisk tune, it often feels like a novelty.
Dick - I liked your clip with the tenor guitar. Have you tried using a six-stringer in a session?
# Posted on December 31st 2010 by Bob himself
Re: guitar in irish trad music
I've been playing guitar for around 40 years and violin for about 10. It's much easier playing playing melody on violin than on guitar.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by nednog
Re: guitar in irish trad music
The human voice is the first instrument in all musical kingdoms.
The guitar is the king of the instruments in kingdom of Irish music.
The banjo is the prime minister.
The mandolin is the queen.
The octave mandolin is the prince.
The tenor guitar is the princess.
The pipes are the chief ambassador.
The melodeon is the duke.
The concertina is the duchess.
The piano accordion is the knight.
The whistle is the earl.
The bodhran is the baron.
The harmonica is the jester.
All other instruments not in this list are the commoners.
All instruments in the Irish music kingdom are recommended to play melodies in the commoner keys of D, G, A, Bm, Em, Am, and sometimes F, C, or Dm, when played in an ensemble in a public house.
The superior instruments shall play melodies and chords simultaneously in all of these commoner keys in this setting.
The most superior instruments shall play melodies and chords in any key,
whenever possible.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by halfwaythere
Re: guitar in irish trad music
earl i dont understand what you mean by a guitar being harder to learn. there is a certain number of frets and notes and scales everythings else is just a shift. whereas a fiddle has no frets therefore you need to memorize a certain position and even a sleight of hand will throw it off. and in order to be able to learn a tune without being physically shown it you need to learn exactly where each and every note is or learn to sight read sheet music. that and virtually every movement you make affects your playing. im not saying one is better than the other but fundamentally a fiddle is harder to learn than a guitar. and bob himself i totally agree with the fact that too many people play a "bit" and far too much it is just parlor tricks when people pick one up. it is often too much hassle to trawl through the mundane to hear somebody really good play.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by christofloffer
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Thanks Bob & no, is the answer to your question.
not really!
I have enough of a guilt complex from playing the Fiddle for over 30 years & never having any desire or inclination to ever move out of 1st position & so wasting all that potential from the other 2/3rds of the fingerboard! .....
Seriously though, I do love to hear the subtle harmonic sounds which add so much to a session, when played by a really good Guitar player, but I have never had any desire to go down that road myself. I would feel like a bit of a phoney though, just using 4 of the 6 strings ... like never using the Regulators on Uilleann Pipes, or the Basses on a Melodeon or Accordion!
However, with the Tenor Guitar, when I'm playing tunes & just bunging in few double stops here & there, I feel like I'm getting closer to fulfilling one of the instruments main functions.
I must confess though, I'm not that keen on the Heavy Metal, 'Dunk Chick', rhythmic thwacking brand of Guitar playing. It somehow sounds grand for Shetland Music, but IMHO is so often just surplus to requirements, when it comes to good Irish Music .... but then that's just me.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: guitar in irish trad music
The learning curve for fiddle is steep in the beginning, but eventually settles down to a more tolerable incline. The curve for guitar starts out gently but gets steep farther down the line. Which is harder? That depends on the desired destination (and, yes, I know we never truly arrive). Based on decades of observation and personal experience, I figure that for a guitarist to achieve a level of technical ease, fluidity and interpretative control comparable to a good fiddler is significantly harder. That's why it's so rare.
Different destination => different conclusion.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by Bob himself
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Dick - I think I might actually like the tenor guitar better than a sixxer in this music.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by Bob himself
Re: guitar in irish trad music
halfwaythere, Did you deliberately leave out the fiddle, and relegate it to commoner status? A rather provocative stand to take, if that was intentional.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by AlBrown
Re: guitar in irish trad music
Hey Al. Now I know that at least one person noticed,
albeit someone who plays titled instruments.
It was intentional, and I guess you could say provocative, but
in jest of course....
# Posted on January 2nd 2011 by halfwaythere