I just picked up my first irish flute a couple weeks ago. I don't really have any trouble playing it per se, my problem's with ornamentation. I'm a fifer so I obviously have never really had to deal with anything too extreme. There aren't any sessions I can go to or instructors that could help me where I live (or any culture in general), and the book/CD I bought haven't helped.
When I'm trying to play a D roll, it should be like D-E-D-C-D, right? Whenever I try to do it, it sounds out of place and way too slow in the song, but if I do it too fast it's just muddled and sounds even stranger.
What I'm asking, I suppose if for some advice/resources to help me get a handle on ornamentation. I've head people suggest listening to more music, and I am, but it doesn't really connect with the playing aspect to me.
Buggy, the whistle tutorial here (http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/) has explanations and sound examples of rolls, cuts, taps, and all the other twiddly bits that Irish whistle and flute players use. They're the same on whistle and flute, so it does no harm learning them from a whistle site.
on the d note you want to do a cran, not a roll. basically you lift the finger you have on the F hole, followed by the E hole. search whistle cran or flute cran in youtube and you'll see.
I was up at his house just before Xmas - and he let me here
some of what looked like about 100 Fife tunes - Played by Gary Hastings - This man here ,, Playing some of them -
It's hard to find a spot in the US devoid of Irish music. You'd be surprised at the whistle and flute players hidden in the woodwork of your own neighborhood.....
Since you specifically asked about 'D', I'll add that you don't really do "rolls" on 'D' on flute; and cranning on 'D' on wooden flute is kind of a religious topic. Many fluters do it, many do not. Both camps may be met with equal measures of joy and disdain.
"Breathing" is another form of articulation that we fluters can do. Feel free to take a breath on a long-D. Or, if you have sufficient wind in reserve, punch it hard and accentuate a long bottom-D with one long note for the required duration; it sounds mighty.
As for folks telling you to "listen more", ask them if they might be able to be a bit more specific about what to listen to. For example, take a tune like Rip the Calico, and explore how many different ways that tune can be started.
I live near Detroit. :/ But I spoke with one of my fife instructors, and they apparently have played too and can help. Hopefully that will introduce me to the community here. There's actually a sizable fife/drum community in Michigan...you just have to know where to look.
And this whistle tutorial someone pointed out (http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/) has been extremely helpful so far. I'm definitely going to go through the whole thing. The examples were the most helpful thing for me- I sometimes have trouble reading rhythms, but hearing them makes it a lot easier.
[By the way, I used D without thinking just as an example, not specifically. Didn't mean to awaken an old debate. I'll be sure to look into that whole situation eventually though.]
If it is the upper d instead of the lower D, I know on whistles it is possible to do cuts (thus also rolls) by playing 00x|xxx. Does this work on flute as well?
Buggy, there are five sessions listed here for Detroit. You'll find some whistle and flute players if you look. Face to face mentoring will get you through all the twiddly bits and a host of tunes.
VlaMike, are you talking the 2nd octave D or top D? 2nd octave D cuts and crans beautifully, especially if played unvented as XXXXXX rather than OXXXXX; top D will cut but who the hell would want to? Most of the time it would be a shrieking, screeching nightmare. You need to blow it with some attack to make it sound clean anyway so I feel it's better to tongue your top Ds if you do neet to separate them.
Detroit has a very active Trad Irish Music establishment. Try googling the Detroit IMA. I am sure there will be some links to folks there who can get you to a teacher. They have previously sponsored the midwest Fleadh. I know if you google Midwest FLeadh 2009, it will take you directly to their website.
Off the Top of my head, Sean Gavin comes out of Detroit- he is an excellent flute player.
I'm also a fifer who dabbles in tin whistle and flute, though I really dig fiddle playing for ITM.
I picked up Grey Larsen's book on Tin Whistle and Flute from Mel Bay and he has very clear guidance on ornaments for both along with two CDs with examples and a ton of tunes to work up and experiment with.
I also do not have anyone nearby for teaching and mostly dabble in it, but the book has really helped get the idea in my head.
Buggy, when you say, "Whenever I try to do it, it sounds out of place and way too slow in the song, but if I do it too fast it's just muddled and sounds even stranger." you have identified the most important point about all this, the timing.
What so many people (including a good many here) get hung up on in this is the notes. It's not about notes, it's about rhythmic phrasing. It's not difficult, but it does take a bit of practice. Where you are ahead of the crowd is in your realisation that your first attempts are not right. Keep it up, you'll have it in no time.
I am also a fifer from Pennsylvania but my inlaws are from Detroit...I just returned from there yesterday. I just started learning to play the button accordion 3 months ago. The flute would have been a natural progression, but I really love the sound of the box and wanted to try something different. Good luck with the ornamentation. It takes a while to learn. I am trying to be patient and take one step at a time. There are are some great discussions on the topic on this site and some good books and DVDs also available. Find a Session in your area and start going. I found one in Phila area that is great for those learning the instrument. They play All the tunes slowly for the first hour for those learning.
Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
I just picked up my first irish flute a couple weeks ago. I don't really have any trouble playing it per se, my problem's with ornamentation. I'm a fifer so I obviously have never really had to deal with anything too extreme. There aren't any sessions I can go to or instructors that could help me where I live (or any culture in general), and the book/CD I bought haven't helped.
When I'm trying to play a D roll, it should be like D-E-D-C-D, right? Whenever I try to do it, it sounds out of place and way too slow in the song, but if I do it too fast it's just muddled and sounds even stranger.
What I'm asking, I suppose if for some advice/resources to help me get a handle on ornamentation. I've head people suggest listening to more music, and I am, but it doesn't really connect with the playing aspect to me.
# Posted on December 28th 2010 by Buggy
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
GGGG wear r U god,aka Llig
# Posted on December 28th 2010 by Oeidipus
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
Buggy, the whistle tutorial here (http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/) has explanations and sound examples of rolls, cuts, taps, and all the other twiddly bits that Irish whistle and flute players use. They're the same on whistle and flute, so it does no harm learning them from a whistle site.
# Posted on December 28th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
on the d note you want to do a cran, not a roll. basically you lift the finger you have on the F hole, followed by the E hole. search whistle cran or flute cran in youtube and you'll see.
# Posted on December 28th 2010 by James Morgan
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
It takes more than a few weeks, be patient and keep working...
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
< I'm a fifer >
Well if your from Nolan Iron - and live near Carrickfergus -
This man might be able to help you |Flute player -
Martin Shane
His web site...
http://www.eatms.co.uk/
I was up at his house just before Xmas - and he let me here
some of what looked like about 100 Fife tunes - Played by Gary Hastings - This man here ,, Playing some of them -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CXbgxPj8UQ
Lambeg Tune's, and Irish and Scot's tune's =
'' Same difference '' - lol...
jim,,,
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/25651
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by browndog
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
Wow-thanks for all the responses already!
I'm glad there's a site like this for some feedback.
@Will Harmon
Thanks, I definitely wouldn't have found that on my own. I'm checking it out right now.
@Jim
I live in the USA, that's what I meant by nobody around here can help me... :( Thanks though.
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by Buggy
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
Where in the USA? You might be surprised...
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
It's hard to find a spot in the US devoid of Irish music. You'd be surprised at the whistle and flute players hidden in the woodwork of your own neighborhood.....
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
Since you specifically asked about 'D', I'll add that you don't really do "rolls" on 'D' on flute; and cranning on 'D' on wooden flute is kind of a religious topic. Many fluters do it, many do not. Both camps may be met with equal measures of joy and disdain.
"Breathing" is another form of articulation that we fluters can do. Feel free to take a breath on a long-D. Or, if you have sufficient wind in reserve, punch it hard and accentuate a long bottom-D with one long note for the required duration; it sounds mighty.
As for folks telling you to "listen more", ask them if they might be able to be a bit more specific about what to listen to. For example, take a tune like Rip the Calico, and explore how many different ways that tune can be started.
Enjoy the journey!
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by browndog
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
I live near Detroit. :/ But I spoke with one of my fife instructors, and they apparently have played too and can help. Hopefully that will introduce me to the community here. There's actually a sizable fife/drum community in Michigan...you just have to know where to look.
And this whistle tutorial someone pointed out (http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/) has been extremely helpful so far. I'm definitely going to go through the whole thing. The examples were the most helpful thing for me- I sometimes have trouble reading rhythms, but hearing them makes it a lot easier.
[By the way, I used D without thinking just as an example, not specifically. Didn't mean to awaken an old debate. I'll be sure to look into that whole situation eventually though.]
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by Buggy
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
If it is the upper d instead of the lower D, I know on whistles it is possible to do cuts (thus also rolls) by playing 00x|xxx. Does this work on flute as well?
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by banshee misfortune
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
Buggy, there are five sessions listed here for Detroit. You'll find some whistle and flute players if you look. Face to face mentoring will get you through all the twiddly bits and a host of tunes.
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
I know people who know people in Detroit. They might know of someone who teaches whistle or flute. I can make inquiries if you want.
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
VlaMike, are you talking the 2nd octave D or top D? 2nd octave D cuts and crans beautifully, especially if played unvented as XXXXXX rather than OXXXXX; top D will cut but who the hell would want to? Most of the time it would be a shrieking, screeching nightmare. You need to blow it with some attack to make it sound clean anyway so I feel it's better to tongue your top Ds if you do neet to separate them.
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by Red Menace
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
"I know people who know people " makes it sound a bit like the mafia . Are you a secret moll , Emily?
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by bazouki dave
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
Motown???
Detroit has a very active Trad Irish Music establishment. Try googling the Detroit IMA. I am sure there will be some links to folks there who can get you to a teacher. They have previously sponsored the midwest Fleadh. I know if you google Midwest FLeadh 2009, it will take you directly to their website.
Off the Top of my head, Sean Gavin comes out of Detroit- he is an excellent flute player.
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by zippydw
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
Buggy,
I'm also a fifer who dabbles in tin whistle and flute, though I really dig fiddle playing for ITM.
I picked up Grey Larsen's book on Tin Whistle and Flute from Mel Bay and he has very clear guidance on ornaments for both along with two CDs with examples and a ton of tunes to work up and experiment with.
I also do not have anyone nearby for teaching and mostly dabble in it, but the book has really helped get the idea in my head.
Best of luck and keep plugging away!
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by FiferFiddler
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
DETROIT?!?! My word man, your resources are endless. Who's our man on here with this website again from the Detroit area?
http://www.sessionite.com/
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
there's someone left in Detroit?!!
# Posted on December 29th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
Buggy, when you say, "Whenever I try to do it, it sounds out of place and way too slow in the song, but if I do it too fast it's just muddled and sounds even stranger." you have identified the most important point about all this, the timing.
What so many people (including a good many here) get hung up on in this is the notes. It's not about notes, it's about rhythmic phrasing. It's not difficult, but it does take a bit of practice. Where you are ahead of the crowd is in your realisation that your first attempts are not right. Keep it up, you'll have it in no time.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by ...
Re: Rolls (and ornamentation in general)....?
I am also a fifer from Pennsylvania but my inlaws are from Detroit...I just returned from there yesterday. I just started learning to play the button accordion 3 months ago. The flute would have been a natural progression, but I really love the sound of the box and wanted to try something different. Good luck with the ornamentation. It takes a while to learn. I am trying to be patient and take one step at a time. There are are some great discussions on the topic on this site and some good books and DVDs also available. Find a Session in your area and start going. I found one in Phila area that is great for those learning the instrument. They play All the tunes slowly for the first hour for those learning.
# Posted on January 1st 2011 by Steve 53