Yes I know it is easier to play accompaniment on bouzouki and the melodies on OM tuned GDAE. Or to only to play the tunes which fit well to high a limitations.
But I really try to find the way of playing the tunes higher then a at first string: it is not ‘first position’ so it is really hard to do sometimes.
How would YOU do it? Would you jump to another ‘position’ and down to 1st or you use the ‘guitar’ method (go up to another ‘position’ on 1st string and then continue to the 2nd string)? Another good thing is that we may use open D string when going down.
Take any tune like Sally Gardens reel - it has high 'b' in it. Look for the 2nd part. It is good example of using open D string (1st) while going down.
Is it actually clear what I mean? Should I apply some picture or video example?
One technique is to stay in first position and rotate your wrist forward, using your thumb as a sort of pivot point. It's one of those moves that seems slow at first but will become quite natural with practice.
I find that some tunes are very hard to play in GDAD, although I know people who can play anything in that tuning. I look for places in a tune with any open string that gives time to shift my hand down the neck--it doesn't have to only be the open D. Same thing for shifting back to first position. A good practice technique is the play the tune slowly and when you get to the point where you need to shift position, pause and make the shift and then pick up the tune. Do the same when you shift back. As you practice the tune, the slight delay gets shorter until it disappears and you are shifting effortlessly up and down the neck.
Sorry missed the critical info about the GDAD tuning. John is right on with the shift on the open string, practice slowly not sounding the open string until the shift is accomplished, ultimately the shift and the sounding of the note will happen at the same time.
I have been playing tunes as John described above for some years. The position shifts become automatic after a while. I do have to think through the shift point on tunes new to me, but that is not a real problem.
"One technique is to stay in first position and rotate your wrist forward, using your thumb as a sort of pivot point. It's one of those moves that seems slow at first but will become quite natural with practice."
I realized after I posted that I neglected to take note of your GDAD tuning, however in GDAE tuning if you were to imagine your thumb on the back of the neck in first position as a pivot point and turn the heel of your hand towards the bridge end of your instrument, your reach extends as your wrist and forearm rotate. When my son was younger he took classical guitar lessons and this is a technique his teacher showed him. I've found it works well on banjo and octave mando as well as guitar.
I play bouzouki in GDAE, but I also pick tunes on a tsouras, which is tuned DAD, so I'm somewhat familiar with the issues here. For me, there are usually a few options for getting through any particular tune and I have to spend a lot of time with a given tune before I can pick it fluently. I usually try to set things up so that I'm shifting at a good breathing point in the tune, but if it makes the tune flow more naturally I'll happily use the open d as a pivot to move up or down the neck.
I generally play much more freely up the neck in DAD tunings. For example, when I play the Maid Behind the Bar, I end up walking up the neck to the ninth fret and then dropping all the way down in the B part: (Parenthesized numbers indicate the fret I'm anchored at)
|:(V)faab afde|fdad fd d2|(VII)efga beef|gebe gfeg|
(IX)f2af bfaf | defd e2 (0)de |fBBA BcdB|AFEF D4:|
When I'm in GDAE, I seldom do more than a jump up to catch the high b. It seldom makes sense to me to try to negotiate extended passages high up the neck in straight fifths. When you have the fourth between the A and the high D, it's pretty easy.
For your Sally Gardens example, that's not one that I've really played a lot on the tsouras, but I think I'd probably play that shifting between fifth and seventh frets, mostly barred (with a little slide back in the first bar, to get that f#). I'd probably make the shift back down the neck in the fourth bar of the B part.
( |a2bg ageg|
Finger the a with the index finger, get the b with the third, and while the b is on the third you're positioning the index for the g. It's a little tricky, but it works. Playing it this way makes it more or less a two-finger tune, you're just hammering on the notes around the barred fifth or seventh fret until you get to the end of the B part, which leaves you well positioned to get that fifth fret bar again.
This one actually seems a lot easier on the DAD than the DAE tuning, now that I look at it. I shoud play it more often...
One other thing I'd add about that tune - if you're barring it the way I suggest, you absolutely must play the open d when you shift back down to the open position for the last two bars. If you try to play the fifth-fret, you'll get all tangled up, but if you hit that first d open, it's cake.
Go to GDAE, works well on fiddles etc.
Ok, yes you do have to move your hand a bit, but it's not as if you were playing a bouzouki, with a scale several centimetres longer.
And once you're used to that tuning fiddle, mandolin, and banjo are all easy. Well, ok, you have to learn to bow as well.
I never saw the point of GDAD myself.
Supposing you have one guy playing the tune on a GDAE instrument, and one on a GDAD; can you tell the difference ? Apart from how one musician will always phrase something slightly different to another, does the change of tuning, for a fretted instrument, make it come out sounding any different, or is it just some convenience and ease to the musician ?
That's what I'd like to know, although i don't think I'm going to change my preference in a hurry.
I don't know if I could pick out GDAD versus GDAE players - I'd look for a more legato sound from the GDAD players, I suppose, and more sustained notes, more playing across the strings, but it wouldn't be very obvious. Mostly, it feels different to play in (G)DAD. It's a new way of looking at tunes, and it opens me up to thinking about them a little differently.
For example, I never really emphasized the ascending feel of the Maid Behind the Bar until I started playing it on the tsouras, now it seems key to the tune. I don't know if anyone else would notice - the tsouras is not an instrument that I'm going to bring to a session - but it's informative and I find it enjoyable.
I'm going to keep picking the banjo in GDAE, in any case, but I'll keep picking the tunes on the tsouras and see what I can learn that way.
Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
Hello everyone!
Yes I know it is easier to play accompaniment on bouzouki and the melodies on OM tuned GDAE. Or to only to play the tunes which fit well to high a limitations.
I’ve read http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12433/comments#comment253514
and other things.
But I really try to find the way of playing the tunes higher then a at first string: it is not ‘first position’ so it is really hard to do sometimes.
How would YOU do it? Would you jump to another ‘position’ and down to 1st or you use the ‘guitar’ method (go up to another ‘position’ on 1st string and then continue to the 2nd string)? Another good thing is that we may use open D string when going down.
Take any tune like Sally Gardens reel - it has high 'b' in it. Look for the 2nd part. It is good example of using open D string (1st) while going down.
Is it actually clear what I mean? Should I apply some picture or video example?
# Posted on December 25th 2010 by evikki
The Sally Gardens reel:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/98
# Posted on December 25th 2010 by evikki
Re: Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
One technique is to stay in first position and rotate your wrist forward, using your thumb as a sort of pivot point. It's one of those moves that seems slow at first but will become quite natural with practice.
# Posted on December 25th 2010 by Boots MacAllen
Re: Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
I find that some tunes are very hard to play in GDAD, although I know people who can play anything in that tuning. I look for places in a tune with any open string that gives time to shift my hand down the neck--it doesn't have to only be the open D. Same thing for shifting back to first position. A good practice technique is the play the tune slowly and when you get to the point where you need to shift position, pause and make the shift and then pick up the tune. Do the same when you shift back. As you practice the tune, the slight delay gets shorter until it disappears and you are shifting effortlessly up and down the neck.
# Posted on December 26th 2010 by John Conoboy
Re: Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
Sorry missed the critical info about the GDAD tuning. John is right on with the shift on the open string, practice slowly not sounding the open string until the shift is accomplished, ultimately the shift and the sounding of the note will happen at the same time.
# Posted on December 26th 2010 by Boots MacAllen
Re: Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
I have been playing tunes as John described above for some years. The position shifts become automatic after a while. I do have to think through the shift point on tunes new to me, but that is not a real problem.
# Posted on December 26th 2010 by rob zouk
Re: Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
"One technique is to stay in first position and rotate your wrist forward, using your thumb as a sort of pivot point. It's one of those moves that seems slow at first but will become quite natural with practice."
Could you explain more? May be some video?
# Posted on December 27th 2010 by evikki
Re: Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
I realized after I posted that I neglected to take note of your GDAD tuning, however in GDAE tuning if you were to imagine your thumb on the back of the neck in first position as a pivot point and turn the heel of your hand towards the bridge end of your instrument, your reach extends as your wrist and forearm rotate. When my son was younger he took classical guitar lessons and this is a technique his teacher showed him. I've found it works well on banjo and octave mando as well as guitar.
# Posted on December 27th 2010 by Boots MacAllen
Re: Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
I play bouzouki in GDAE, but I also pick tunes on a tsouras, which is tuned DAD, so I'm somewhat familiar with the issues here. For me, there are usually a few options for getting through any particular tune and I have to spend a lot of time with a given tune before I can pick it fluently. I usually try to set things up so that I'm shifting at a good breathing point in the tune, but if it makes the tune flow more naturally I'll happily use the open d as a pivot to move up or down the neck.
I generally play much more freely up the neck in DAD tunings. For example, when I play the Maid Behind the Bar, I end up walking up the neck to the ninth fret and then dropping all the way down in the B part: (Parenthesized numbers indicate the fret I'm anchored at)
|:(V)faab afde|fdad fd d2|(VII)efga beef|gebe gfeg|
(IX)f2af bfaf | defd e2 (0)de |fBBA BcdB|AFEF D4:|
When I'm in GDAE, I seldom do more than a jump up to catch the high b. It seldom makes sense to me to try to negotiate extended passages high up the neck in straight fifths. When you have the fourth between the A and the high D, it's pretty easy.
For your Sally Gardens example, that's not one that I've really played a lot on the tsouras, but I think I'd probably play that shifting between fifth and seventh frets, mostly barred (with a little slide back in the first bar, to get that f#). I'd probably make the shift back down the neck in the fourth bar of the B part.
( |a2bg ageg|
Finger the a with the index finger, get the b with the third, and while the b is on the third you're positioning the index for the g. It's a little tricky, but it works. Playing it this way makes it more or less a two-finger tune, you're just hammering on the notes around the barred fifth or seventh fret until you get to the end of the B part, which leaves you well positioned to get that fifth fret bar again.
This one actually seems a lot easier on the DAD than the DAE tuning, now that I look at it. I shoud play it more often...
# Posted on December 27th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
One other thing I'd add about that tune - if you're barring it the way I suggest, you absolutely must play the open d when you shift back down to the open position for the last two bars. If you try to play the fifth-fret, you'll get all tangled up, but if you hit that first d open, it's cake.
# Posted on December 27th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
Go to GDAE, works well on fiddles etc.
Ok, yes you do have to move your hand a bit, but it's not as if you were playing a bouzouki, with a scale several centimetres longer.
And once you're used to that tuning fiddle, mandolin, and banjo are all easy. Well, ok, you have to learn to bow as well.
I never saw the point of GDAD myself.
# Posted on December 27th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
Pete - neither did I, until I found myself with an instrument that suits the tuning. It's actually more fun, I think, for some tunes.
# Posted on December 27th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
Supposing you have one guy playing the tune on a GDAE instrument, and one on a GDAD; can you tell the difference ? Apart from how one musician will always phrase something slightly different to another, does the change of tuning, for a fretted instrument, make it come out sounding any different, or is it just some convenience and ease to the musician ?
That's what I'd like to know, although i don't think I'm going to change my preference in a hurry.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Octave Mandoline in GDAD and high 'b' problem
I don't know if I could pick out GDAD versus GDAE players - I'd look for a more legato sound from the GDAD players, I suppose, and more sustained notes, more playing across the strings, but it wouldn't be very obvious. Mostly, it feels different to play in (G)DAD. It's a new way of looking at tunes, and it opens me up to thinking about them a little differently.
For example, I never really emphasized the ascending feel of the Maid Behind the Bar until I started playing it on the tsouras, now it seems key to the tune. I don't know if anyone else would notice - the tsouras is not an instrument that I'm going to bring to a session - but it's informative and I find it enjoyable.
I'm going to keep picking the banjo in GDAE, in any case, but I'll keep picking the tunes on the tsouras and see what I can learn that way.
# Posted on December 30th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky