Some things you are born with, and some you have to learn, and others are seemingly impossible. I'm trying to work out what category playing instruments comes under.
I wonder, because I love traditional music, and the thought of tapping my foot along to a bunch of people playing in the back of a pub always cheers me up. The problem is... my tapping foot is generally out of time.
I'm no musician. Playing an instrument is one of the hardest things I've ever attempted, and as a result, something I really want to get good at.
Last year I picked up a tin whistle because it was 'easy'. I can crack out "silent night" and "amazing grace" no problem (it only took several weeks for several hours a day!!!) but I just don't seem to *get* it. The harder stuff just seems impossible! Rocky Road to Dublin in particular is proving to be crazily hard.
So my main question I suppose is; is it possible for ANYONE to play decent music with enough practice (sure, I'm not going to be the greatest ever...) or are some of us destined to sit in the corner and dream forever?
Yes, anyone can learn to play an instrument and you will if you really, really want to! Slow the tunes down so you hear clearly exactly what is going on and spend lots of time listening and playing everyday and you will make progress. And you must find enough enjoyment in this process to keep going despite all the frustrations!
Just listen to everything, gigs, sessions, when it comes on the telly, CDs, the lot. Whistle it, sing it, hum it, play along with it, dance to it when no-one's looking. Get it under your skin. No tablature, no tutor books, no tune-books. It's a bit like that thing they do for people who have trouble with their, erm, sex lives. They get you to forget about the goal and focus on the sheer fun of it. That's the way to do it!
Probably anyone can learn given the time and motivation. However half of the battle is finding out your own best way to learn. My wife , my son and I all took up music at roughly the same time, 2 years ago. She learns purely from standard notation, I learn from listening over and over again and our son is using a mix of both methods. Our common factor is that each has a good and well liked teacher.
The nature part only allows people to practice for longer without getting bored (and is probably just luck in learning the "right" way for a given person). Perseverance is a good substitute.
Compared to some people I know, I really need to work hard to play well. And some things just seem beyond me. But with every passing year, I play better, and more easily.
Some innate sense of music is required, which most people have. But the rest can be gained through hard work.
If you love it, keep working at it!
If you want to work on timing, work on counting! There are many ways to count, but the easiest is to just do "123 - 456" for jigs and "1234 - 1234" for reels etc. So that would be counting every eighth note for every beat, but trying to get them in time with the tapping of your foot.
You can listen to tunes and try to count them out evenly and reliably. Then, when you get better at it, start counting only those notes that are being played. I.e "FAA2 ABFA" would be "123_ - 1234" etc. If you can do this consistently while listening, it will make your playing better. Also, while you play, you should be counting in your head..... As you get better, your counting may not be in numbers but rather by feeling, but the better the musician the better their sense of timing. Best of luck!
Oh yea you can be amazing at instruments if you put the time in and enjoy it! Also if you really want to speed up the learning process by 100x get a teacher! I have never had a teacher until I started bagpipes and I play mandolin, guitar, tin whistle, and some other instruments. Over the years I have gotten pretty good at those. I will say that I wish I had a teacher for each of these for the reason I listed above.
One year is not a long time. And the older you are the longer it may take. However I would opine that there are many genes involved in neurodevelopment whose expression may be switched on or off depending on environmental factors, and so-called musical talent would be no exception. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy playing for yourself and part of the fun is observing your own progress as you go.
I believe that when it comes down to a faceoff between talent and obsession, obsession will usually take it, given enough time. (Assuming the talented person is not obsessed.) Talented people without obsession learn as much as they can quickly, and then stop. Obsessed people keep grinding away at it forever. Most often they end up eclipsing the talented-people-without-obsession. You seem to have the right attitude. Never give up.
In the mean time: You know the individual notes in Rocky Road, right? So learn it at the speed you can play it steadily: maybe 4 times, maybe 8 times slower than you usually hear it. Maybe slower; it doesn't matter. Learn it by heart at that speed. Play it a zillion times. Slowly speed it up until it's where you want it. Be patient with yourself.
And once you learn one tune well, it's about 4 times easier to learn another. Once you learn 2, it's 8 times easier.
Music is a long road - it goes on longer than any of us will. There will always be more to learn, and that's the beauty of it, if you enjoy the road. Start where you are today, and do the next thing. Don't think a lot about the things you want to do eventually, think about the thing you're learning now. If you know two tunes, enjoy playing those, and learn another.
Don't compare yourself to other people. There will always be someone who can do something you don't know how to do yet. That person is someone you can learn from. There will always be people who are still struggling with something you've got down pretty well. That person is also someone you can learn from: teach them what you know, and you'll find it's the best way to learn.
There's a lot of good advice here, and some that might work better for you than I'd think it would. Take what seems most sensible to you, try to apply it. I suggest that you pay special attention to Steve's post, it seems quite good to me.
Veda Hille has a lovely little song, part of which sticks in my head and sings itself to me sometimes:
Oh, precious heart
you think you're lost
look down, look down and find your feet
The next step is the path you're on
Nobody picks up an instrument for the first time and plays it like a pro. It takes time, and a lot of dedication. A lot of the people who are considered "naturally talented" are just that way because it dominates their thoughts, time, and energy. So they get better at it quicker, because that's about all they do. Some people don't have lives (or interest level) that afford them that kind of dedication.
There are probably somewhat significant differences in people's innate ability to learn, having to do with intelligence, and experience at learning. (I mean, when was the last time that you picked up something completely new, and tried to figure it out? Was it recently, or 20 years ago?) But you can learn how to learn. And you can learn how to listen.
If you immerse yourself in the music, so that you internalize it, that's a *huge* part of being able to play it. If you practice, and work on learning and retention, you should be able to overcome just about any "handicap".
I played music for a long time before being introduced to Irish. But I was never very good at it. And I considered myself to be somewhat "musically challenged" when it came to playing. But that's because I never had much focus, or training. As soon as I got obsessed with Irish traditional music, I progressed rapidly. It helped that I had played fretted instruments for a long time, but that was about the extent of my "advantage". The rest of it was just pure immersion and obsession.
It will take probably 1 or 2 years to be able to play some tunes
on whistle with confidence if you haven't played anything before.
The style part of it takes much much longer.
Even though I played clarinet, sax and recorder for
for many years before touching the fiddle - after six years of it I
have far to go.
Flute and whistle were more or less instant , but getting a good
style is an on-going process; that part still takes years - not
just playing but listening and learning about it.
Listen to a lot of Irish music. Lilt the tunes in your head and with your voice. Play your whistle all the time. two/four/twelve hours of playing per day. Find other people to play with. If you're going to do it DO IT! Don't just F around with it. If other people can do it You can do it. Don't let yourself down. Off ya go lad....
Oh...and you're not born with anything. You've gotta kick punch and claw for your bit of paradise. Just like everyone else.Find it in that f-ing whistle and you'll be OK.
Like others have said, you haven't been at it long enough to expect much, keep going. A lot of people give up once they realize how long it takes to become good on an instrument; real musicians are the ones who keep going.
If you're having trouble tapping your foot in time with the music, do a lot of listening until you get it. You really need to know where the beat is with this music.
Since you're been able to teach yourself to play two simple tunes in a few weeks time, you've got enough of whatever gifts are needed to play music, and since you can't do anything about talent it's not worth worrying about.
All you need is time, just keep at it. You have to do *something* for the rest of your life, after all.
Playing an instrument is one of the two or three hardest things that a human can learn to do - especially later in life. One of the others is learning to speak a new language. Both are down to the high level intricacy, co-ordination and abstraction of understanding required. Only later do such things start to feel intuitive.
There are strong parallels between the two - and no matter what the ads say, you will never speak a language fluently in a few weeks, or even a few years. Tailor your musical expectations similarly - one of the biggest psychological hurdles in learning anything is having an inapproapriate time-frame in mind. See all helpful comments above.
Rocky Road To Dublin is not, actually, an easy dance tune for a newbie on the whistle. Or so I found it myself. That is because it keeps returning to c natural, not the easiest note to play or ornament at speed if you're a beginner. There are other dance tunes that are more straightforward for a beginner to cut his teeth on!
Don't try too hard and learn to breathe properly. Practice to become a relaxed player. Relaxed players are better players ergo you'll become a better player. Give yourself plenty of time. Kids learn incredibly quickly yet it still takes them years to get to a decent level.
Nobody else has suggested this, but maybe try some other instruments? I can play several different types of instrument (keyboards, guitar, sax, fiddle) and I can get a tune out of a whistle, but it doesn't suit me, I don't find myself wanting to play and play and play, which is what I think needs to happen.
Aye, from your first post it sounds as if you chose the whistle because it was "easy," not because you had any deep passion to play the whistle. First of all, playing the whistle well isn't easy, like any instrument. Second of all, that leads to disappointment and frustration when it turns out not to be easy. Thirdly, like Bernie said, think about what instrument you *really* want to play. That will be easier because you'll want to just play it all the time.
There's a lot in that. Over the years, I've tried keyboard, brass and woodwind instruments, but I never took to them like the fretted ones (and, dare I add, to my own surprise, percussion).
My wife, on the other hand, just can't get along with strings but finds blown instruments much more intuitive.
At least in classical circles, finding the 'right' instrument for a child-learner is an importnat part of the process, and the consequences of getting it wrong can be far-reaching.
As a language teacher to adults, it's definitely true that the older you get, the harder it is to learn by ear. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
Thank you for your replies - they have been somewhat inspirational!
In response to one or two particular comments about choice of instrument... my true dream was to play the fiddle. Of course as perceptions go a whistle is easy, and the fiddle is hard to play. I knew I was quite slow when it came to music (nothing like being told by your drumming instructor to take up humming lol) so opted for the easy-in. Of course I love the sound of the whistle, and certainly wont stop playing, but maybe you are right.
On a general note, I thought a year was plenty of time. However thinking about it, if I added up all of the time actually playing, it probably doesnt add up to that long at all... maybe 150 hours spead across a whole year. hmmm, when worded like that I havent really tried at all!
Then again, even if I do sound aweful - I'm having a great time so why worry
Good advice here, won't really add to it too much, but as someone who has been playing music since age 9 (I am 31 now), I agree that time is a factor. Just keep with it. Also, be aware of what some other folks here have said involving neurology. Some folks are more visual than aural, or vice versa. Despite crossing some taboo lines, you may need to try other tactics for learning initially. I can tell you, also, that from years and years of reading music and being a more visual learner, relying on that method only will hamper you later on, so if you go that route, keep listening as well and try to incorporated both methods.
Counting the hours across a year is silly. You can practice 8 hours a day for a week, and do that four times a year, and at the end of the year you'll know approximately nothing. What matters is playing every day. It doesn't have to be much, fifteen minutes is enough, but make sure you do it every day. If you drive to work, keep a whistle in the car and play for ten minutes when you get parked, and again before you start the car on the way home.
You don't even need to blow on the whistle to get some benefit from practice. If I'm trying to learn a tune, I'll often just play the fingerings and listen to the tune in my head. Having the tune in your head is critical - if you just know the fingerings, you can get lost pretty easy, but if the tunes inside you, it'll feel like it's playing itself.
"as perceptions go a whistle is easy, and the fiddle is hard to play"
It doesn't really work that way, all instruments are easy to play and hard to play well. It's a bit easier to get off the ground on whistle, but after that it's all the same.
Play fiddle, that's your dream and you should do it. It's not as hard as most people think, it's just frustrating in the beginning because it takes a long time to learn to use the bow well.
Get a fiddle, and take some lessons from a teacher or fiddler friend to get you pointed in the right direction. Don't expect much until you've been playing for about five years or so. Play every day to the extent that you can, don't just pick it up once and a while or you'll never get anywhere.
You might find you are more musical than you think once you find the "right" instrument for you. I spent seven years being crap at the French horn, about five years being ridiculously crap at the mountain dulcimer, and four years being fairly crap at choir and believed I was pretty musically challenged. When I decided I was going to play Irish music, I loved the sound of the pipes but found the thought of playing them absolutely terrifying for someone as "musically challenged" as myself. So yes, I started off on the bodhran (oh, the shame!). Luckily that didn't last very long and I decided in the end to learn the pipes anyway. After six years on the pipes I've achieved a level of competency that I never managed after the same amount of time on the French horn.
The whistle only seems like an "easy-in" because it's easier to make a sort of acceptable noise on one when you first pick it up than it is on a fiddle. Fiddlers have to go through the initial cat-strangling phase. But it's actually not much easier when it comes down to learning the music itself.
TheSilverSpear has the right of it. Not everyone is suited to any given instrument, and the whistle has challenges of its own just like any instrument. You hit the steep bit of the learning curve a little later with whistle than with some other instruments, but it's still there.
Please remember too that some tunes are better suited to one instrument rather than another. If you want a slip jig to play on a D whistle for example, this one is a little easier than Rocky Road - http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1030
You may find it useful to tell people on here what learning materials you are using, if any. Are you using any kind of "teach yourself" books? Videos? CDs? Some resources are better than others and I'm sure people on here can point you towards some useful stuff if you give us a baseline to work from.
How familiar are you with the material? In other words, are you having to learn the instrument *and* the flow / rhythm of the music at the same time?
Finally, what kind of whistle are you using? There are some excellent inexpensive whistles out there. If you have a bad whistle, or a whistle that's difficult for a beginner however, you will make your learning experience a lot harder than it has to be.
As long as you're still enjoying it, that's the main thing!
The good thing about sessions is when you are able to meet those musicians who actually introduce you to the tunes, rhythms, the idiom ... On the other hand, it doesn't always go smoothly, simply because you have found a session. And responses here are hampered by not being face to face. It's also simple but a few things help it be enjoyable & not all so frustrating.
In regards to getting the tunes & their feel into your head & body it's just that. They come in by listening & continuing to listen overtime. Imho there are two ways in which anyone can play the tunes ~ singing & whistling. I recommend to every trad player, buy a D whistle. If there is a session locally, it is worth spending some time listening. Actually playing in a session is a matter unto itself. Though for many of us it's the main reason for learning the music.
I can give you one example of where to learn a tune online. Shannon Heaton, flute player, has a Tune of the Month lesson which she has been posting for over a year now. http://tuneofthemonth.posterous.com/?page=2
The 1st two she does are "Fair Haired Boy" & "Bird in the Bush". She plays each tune up to speed, so you can hear how you want it to sound. Then she goes over the parts, to give you time to play the tunes; phrase by phrase. Sometimes she sings the parts & I think it is good to also sing, before attempting to play, in order to get the tune into your head.
My questions are do you have a few tunes worked up, are you understanding some of the rhythmic articulations (a.k.a. ornaments), do you know any trad musicians ... ?
Currently learning from a mixture of Soodlums whistle tutor book #1 and a chap called RyanDunsSJ on YouTube Youtube search for tin whistle versions of songs has really been the lifeline to this - it doesn't take too long to get my fingers in the right place, but getting the timing right takes a few hundred play-pause-whistle cycles to work out. I have to really know the tune before I crack it.
Learning on a 'Generation' D whistle.
I've got a couple of tunes that I'm happy with, for instance Dawning of the Day, Star of County Down and Rakes of Mallow. I have a couple of the ornaments on my list that I try to play with - but working out how to best use them needs a bit of practice. I just had to look the word up on wikipedia - turns out my fingers know about cuts, stikes and slides. Rolls look interesting and I tried a few - its quite funny watching my fingers get them completely wrong even though my brain knows what it should be doing. I should probably start thinking up a better excuse than "doing rolls" when my boss asks why I overslept in the morning
I don't know any traditional musicians personally (used to be a few I'd chat to in my old local, but recently moved to London) - I know hundreds on the internet though hehe.
Tune of the month looks pretty useful. I'll give it a go.
The ornaments are, for the most part, rhythmic; as opposed to melodic. Oftentimes it's not just one articulation(ornament) which you can use. You can actually change how you articulate & phrase individual parts as they come around in the repeats. Sometimes sliding up to a high note will ease you (& other listeners) into something which might otherwise be excruciating.
Have you tried crans on the low d & low e notes?
Michael Eskin has a YouTube channel called Tradlessons. He has tinwhistle as well as a few other instruments. http://www.tradlessons.com/?cat=4
I havent found any sessions nearby, but I haven't been here long. The session finder part of this website has quite a few around London in general, which I don't mind travelling for. Hopefully there will be a couple that I can get to after work.
squark, Generation whistles can be a bit hit-and-miss. There are good Generations out there, but you may do well to try a few more types of inexpensive whistles to see if there is one that suits you better.
http://www.bigwhistle.co.uk/ has loads of whistles for under a tenner. They also sell the Dixon Trad for £15 and that's a cracking whistle, I have one myself and play it loads.
Nature or nurture?
Nature or nurture?
Hello,
Some things you are born with, and some you have to learn, and others are seemingly impossible. I'm trying to work out what category playing instruments comes under.
I wonder, because I love traditional music, and the thought of tapping my foot along to a bunch of people playing in the back of a pub always cheers me up. The problem is... my tapping foot is generally out of time.
I'm no musician. Playing an instrument is one of the hardest things I've ever attempted, and as a result, something I really want to get good at.
Last year I picked up a tin whistle because it was 'easy'. I can crack out "silent night" and "amazing grace" no problem (it only took several weeks for several hours a day!!!) but I just don't seem to *get* it. The harder stuff just seems impossible! Rocky Road to Dublin in particular is proving to be crazily hard.
So my main question I suppose is; is it possible for ANYONE to play decent music with enough practice (sure, I'm not going to be the greatest ever...) or are some of us destined to sit in the corner and dream forever?
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by squark
Re: Nature or nurture?
A year ain't long. Keep going.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Bredna
Re: Nature or nurture?
Go to a dance to learn rhythm. Learning to contra dance, for instance, will help you to move your feet in time. Rhythm is more than half of it.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by David Levine
Re: Nature or nurture?
Yes, anyone can learn to play an instrument and you will if you really, really want to! Slow the tunes down so you hear clearly exactly what is going on and spend lots of time listening and playing everyday and you will make progress. And you must find enough enjoyment in this process to keep going despite all the frustrations!
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by leoj
Re: Nature or nurture?
Like everything else, it's nature and nurture.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by leoj
Re: Nature or nurture?
A year is nothing. Listen to lots of Irish music, live if you can, and keep at it. It's mostly nurture.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Nature or nurture?
Just listen to everything, gigs, sessions, when it comes on the telly, CDs, the lot. Whistle it, sing it, hum it, play along with it, dance to it when no-one's looking. Get it under your skin. No tablature, no tutor books, no tune-books. It's a bit like that thing they do for people who have trouble with their, erm, sex lives. They get you to forget about the goal and focus on the sheer fun of it. That's the way to do it!
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Nature or nurture?
Probably anyone can learn given the time and motivation. However half of the battle is finding out your own best way to learn. My wife , my son and I all took up music at roughly the same time, 2 years ago. She learns purely from standard notation, I learn from listening over and over again and our son is using a mix of both methods. Our common factor is that each has a good and well liked teacher.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by old dog
Re: Nature or nurture?
The nature part only allows people to practice for longer without getting bored (and is probably just luck in learning the "right" way for a given person). Perseverance is a good substitute.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Tirno
Re: Nature or nurture?
Compared to some people I know, I really need to work hard to play well. And some things just seem beyond me. But with every passing year, I play better, and more easily.
Some innate sense of music is required, which most people have. But the rest can be gained through hard work.
If you love it, keep working at it!
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Nature or nurture?
If you want to work on timing, work on counting! There are many ways to count, but the easiest is to just do "123 - 456" for jigs and "1234 - 1234" for reels etc. So that would be counting every eighth note for every beat, but trying to get them in time with the tapping of your foot.
You can listen to tunes and try to count them out evenly and reliably. Then, when you get better at it, start counting only those notes that are being played. I.e "FAA2 ABFA" would be "123_ - 1234" etc. If you can do this consistently while listening, it will make your playing better. Also, while you play, you should be counting in your head..... As you get better, your counting may not be in numbers but rather by feeling, but the better the musician the better their sense of timing. Best of luck!
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by daiv
Re: Nature or nurture?
Oh yea you can be amazing at instruments if you put the time in and enjoy it! Also if you really want to speed up the learning process by 100x get a teacher! I have never had a teacher until I started bagpipes and I play mandolin, guitar, tin whistle, and some other instruments. Over the years I have gotten pretty good at those. I will say that I wish I had a teacher for each of these for the reason I listed above.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Jayrr1
Re: Nature or nurture?
One year is not a long time. And the older you are the longer it may take. However I would opine that there are many genes involved in neurodevelopment whose expression may be switched on or off depending on environmental factors, and so-called musical talent would be no exception. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy playing for yourself and part of the fun is observing your own progress as you go.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: Nature or nurture?
I believe that when it comes down to a faceoff between talent and obsession, obsession will usually take it, given enough time. (Assuming the talented person is not obsessed.) Talented people without obsession learn as much as they can quickly, and then stop. Obsessed people keep grinding away at it forever. Most often they end up eclipsing the talented-people-without-obsession. You seem to have the right attitude. Never give up.
In the mean time: You know the individual notes in Rocky Road, right? So learn it at the speed you can play it steadily: maybe 4 times, maybe 8 times slower than you usually hear it. Maybe slower; it doesn't matter. Learn it by heart at that speed. Play it a zillion times. Slowly speed it up until it's where you want it. Be patient with yourself.
And once you learn one tune well, it's about 4 times easier to learn another. Once you learn 2, it's 8 times easier.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by oakuss
Re: Nature or nurture?
For what it's worth, here's my two cents' worth.
Music is a long road - it goes on longer than any of us will. There will always be more to learn, and that's the beauty of it, if you enjoy the road. Start where you are today, and do the next thing. Don't think a lot about the things you want to do eventually, think about the thing you're learning now. If you know two tunes, enjoy playing those, and learn another.
Don't compare yourself to other people. There will always be someone who can do something you don't know how to do yet. That person is someone you can learn from. There will always be people who are still struggling with something you've got down pretty well. That person is also someone you can learn from: teach them what you know, and you'll find it's the best way to learn.
There's a lot of good advice here, and some that might work better for you than I'd think it would. Take what seems most sensible to you, try to apply it. I suggest that you pay special attention to Steve's post, it seems quite good to me.
Veda Hille has a lovely little song, part of which sticks in my head and sings itself to me sometimes:
Oh, precious heart
you think you're lost
look down, look down and find your feet
The next step is the path you're on
Seems good advice to me.
(Was that two cents' worth? What a bargain...)
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Nature or nurture?
Nobody picks up an instrument for the first time and plays it like a pro. It takes time, and a lot of dedication. A lot of the people who are considered "naturally talented" are just that way because it dominates their thoughts, time, and energy. So they get better at it quicker, because that's about all they do. Some people don't have lives (or interest level) that afford them that kind of dedication.
There are probably somewhat significant differences in people's innate ability to learn, having to do with intelligence, and experience at learning. (I mean, when was the last time that you picked up something completely new, and tried to figure it out? Was it recently, or 20 years ago?) But you can learn how to learn. And you can learn how to listen.
If you immerse yourself in the music, so that you internalize it, that's a *huge* part of being able to play it. If you practice, and work on learning and retention, you should be able to overcome just about any "handicap".
I played music for a long time before being introduced to Irish. But I was never very good at it. And I considered myself to be somewhat "musically challenged" when it came to playing. But that's because I never had much focus, or training. As soon as I got obsessed with Irish traditional music, I progressed rapidly. It helped that I had played fretted instruments for a long time, but that was about the extent of my "advantage". The rest of it was just pure immersion and obsession.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Reverend
Re: Nature or nurture?
It will take probably 1 or 2 years to be able to play some tunes
on whistle with confidence if you haven't played anything before.
The style part of it takes much much longer.
Even though I played clarinet, sax and recorder for
for many years before touching the fiddle - after six years of it I
have far to go.
Flute and whistle were more or less instant , but getting a good
style is an on-going process; that part still takes years - not
just playing but listening and learning about it.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Hup
Re: Nature or nurture?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/26088
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by dfost
Re: Nature or nurture?
Listen to a lot of Irish music. Lilt the tunes in your head and with your voice. Play your whistle all the time. two/four/twelve hours of playing per day. Find other people to play with. If you're going to do it DO IT! Don't just F around with it. If other people can do it You can do it. Don't let yourself down. Off ya go lad....
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by shanty
Re: Nature or nurture?
Oh...and you're not born with anything. You've gotta kick punch and claw for your bit of paradise. Just like everyone else.Find it in that f-ing whistle and you'll be OK.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by shanty
Re: Nature or nurture?
Like others have said, you haven't been at it long enough to expect much, keep going. A lot of people give up once they realize how long it takes to become good on an instrument; real musicians are the ones who keep going.
If you're having trouble tapping your foot in time with the music, do a lot of listening until you get it. You really need to know where the beat is with this music.
Since you're been able to teach yourself to play two simple tunes in a few weeks time, you've got enough of whatever gifts are needed to play music, and since you can't do anything about talent it's not worth worrying about.
All you need is time, just keep at it. You have to do *something* for the rest of your life, after all.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Marklar
Re: Nature or nurture?
Playing an instrument is one of the two or three hardest things that a human can learn to do - especially later in life. One of the others is learning to speak a new language. Both are down to the high level intricacy, co-ordination and abstraction of understanding required. Only later do such things start to feel intuitive.
There are strong parallels between the two - and no matter what the ads say, you will never speak a language fluently in a few weeks, or even a few years. Tailor your musical expectations similarly - one of the biggest psychological hurdles in learning anything is having an inapproapriate time-frame in mind. See all helpful comments above.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by ian stock
Re: Nature or nurture?
hear hear!
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by mcknowall
Re: Nature or nurture?
@squark:
Rocky Road To Dublin is not, actually, an easy dance tune for a newbie on the whistle. Or so I found it myself. That is because it keeps returning to c natural, not the easiest note to play or ornament at speed if you're a beginner. There are other dance tunes that are more straightforward for a beginner to cut his teeth on!
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by nicholas
Re: Nature or nurture?
Don't try too hard and learn to breathe properly. Practice to become a relaxed player. Relaxed players are better players ergo you'll become a better player. Give yourself plenty of time. Kids learn incredibly quickly yet it still takes them years to get to a decent level.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Enda Scahill
Re: Nature or nurture?
Talking is easy, right? How long did it take you to learn?
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by gam
Re: Nature or nurture?
Nobody else has suggested this, but maybe try some other instruments? I can play several different types of instrument (keyboards, guitar, sax, fiddle) and I can get a tune out of a whistle, but it doesn't suit me, I don't find myself wanting to play and play and play, which is what I think needs to happen.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Bernie 29
Re: Nature or nurture?
Aye, from your first post it sounds as if you chose the whistle because it was "easy," not because you had any deep passion to play the whistle. First of all, playing the whistle well isn't easy, like any instrument. Second of all, that leads to disappointment and frustration when it turns out not to be easy. Thirdly, like Bernie said, think about what instrument you *really* want to play. That will be easier because you'll want to just play it all the time.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Nature or nurture?
>>but it doesn't suit me
There's a lot in that. Over the years, I've tried keyboard, brass and woodwind instruments, but I never took to them like the fretted ones (and, dare I add, to my own surprise, percussion).
My wife, on the other hand, just can't get along with strings but finds blown instruments much more intuitive.
At least in classical circles, finding the 'right' instrument for a child-learner is an importnat part of the process, and the consequences of getting it wrong can be far-reaching.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by ian stock
Re: Nature or nurture?
As a language teacher to adults, it's definitely true that the older you get, the harder it is to learn by ear. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Kheelch
Re: Nature or nurture?
1000 hours to get decent. Keep at it!
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by snorre
Re: Nature or nurture?
1000 hours to get decent? Gladwell's Misconception is developing into a complex beast.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Nature or nurture?
Thank you for your replies - they have been somewhat inspirational!
In response to one or two particular comments about choice of instrument... my true dream was to play the fiddle. Of course as perceptions go a whistle is easy, and the fiddle is hard to play. I knew I was quite slow when it came to music (nothing like being told by your drumming instructor to take up humming lol) so opted for the easy-in. Of course I love the sound of the whistle, and certainly wont stop playing, but maybe you are right.
On a general note, I thought a year was plenty of time. However thinking about it, if I added up all of the time actually playing, it probably doesnt add up to that long at all... maybe 150 hours spead across a whole year. hmmm, when worded like that I havent really tried at all!
Then again, even if I do sound aweful - I'm having a great time so why worry
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by squark
Re: Nature or nurture?
Good advice here, won't really add to it too much, but as someone who has been playing music since age 9 (I am 31 now), I agree that time is a factor. Just keep with it. Also, be aware of what some other folks here have said involving neurology. Some folks are more visual than aural, or vice versa. Despite crossing some taboo lines, you may need to try other tactics for learning initially. I can tell you, also, that from years and years of reading music and being a more visual learner, relying on that method only will hamper you later on, so if you go that route, keep listening as well and try to incorporated both methods.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: Nature or nurture?
Counting the hours across a year is silly. You can practice 8 hours a day for a week, and do that four times a year, and at the end of the year you'll know approximately nothing. What matters is playing every day. It doesn't have to be much, fifteen minutes is enough, but make sure you do it every day. If you drive to work, keep a whistle in the car and play for ten minutes when you get parked, and again before you start the car on the way home.
You don't even need to blow on the whistle to get some benefit from practice. If I'm trying to learn a tune, I'll often just play the fingerings and listen to the tune in my head. Having the tune in your head is critical - if you just know the fingerings, you can get lost pretty easy, but if the tunes inside you, it'll feel like it's playing itself.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Nature or nurture?
"as perceptions go a whistle is easy, and the fiddle is hard to play"
It doesn't really work that way, all instruments are easy to play and hard to play well. It's a bit easier to get off the ground on whistle, but after that it's all the same.
Play fiddle, that's your dream and you should do it. It's not as hard as most people think, it's just frustrating in the beginning because it takes a long time to learn to use the bow well.
Get a fiddle, and take some lessons from a teacher or fiddler friend to get you pointed in the right direction. Don't expect much until you've been playing for about five years or so. Play every day to the extent that you can, don't just pick it up once and a while or you'll never get anywhere.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Marklar
Re: Nature or nurture?
You might find you are more musical than you think once you find the "right" instrument for you. I spent seven years being crap at the French horn, about five years being ridiculously crap at the mountain dulcimer, and four years being fairly crap at choir and believed I was pretty musically challenged. When I decided I was going to play Irish music, I loved the sound of the pipes but found the thought of playing them absolutely terrifying for someone as "musically challenged" as myself. So yes, I started off on the bodhran (oh, the shame!). Luckily that didn't last very long and I decided in the end to learn the pipes anyway. After six years on the pipes I've achieved a level of competency that I never managed after the same amount of time on the French horn.
The whistle only seems like an "easy-in" because it's easier to make a sort of acceptable noise on one when you first pick it up than it is on a fiddle. Fiddlers have to go through the initial cat-strangling phase. But it's actually not much easier when it comes down to learning the music itself.
A year is no time at all.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Nature or nurture?
Lots of appropriate posts. I think Jon Kiparsky said it best, however.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Nature or nurture?
TheSilverSpear has the right of it. Not everyone is suited to any given instrument, and the whistle has challenges of its own just like any instrument. You hit the steep bit of the learning curve a little later with whistle than with some other instruments, but it's still there.
Please remember too that some tunes are better suited to one instrument rather than another. If you want a slip jig to play on a D whistle for example, this one is a little easier than Rocky Road - http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1030
You may find it useful to tell people on here what learning materials you are using, if any. Are you using any kind of "teach yourself" books? Videos? CDs? Some resources are better than others and I'm sure people on here can point you towards some useful stuff if you give us a baseline to work from.
How familiar are you with the material? In other words, are you having to learn the instrument *and* the flow / rhythm of the music at the same time?
Finally, what kind of whistle are you using? There are some excellent inexpensive whistles out there. If you have a bad whistle, or a whistle that's difficult for a beginner however, you will make your learning experience a lot harder than it has to be.
As long as you're still enjoying it, that's the main thing!
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Red Menace
Re: Nature or nurture?
Sqark, yes.
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Nature or nurture?
The good thing about sessions is when you are able to meet those musicians who actually introduce you to the tunes, rhythms, the idiom ... On the other hand, it doesn't always go smoothly, simply because you have found a session. And responses here are hampered by not being face to face. It's also simple but a few things help it be enjoyable & not all so frustrating.
In regards to getting the tunes & their feel into your head & body it's just that. They come in by listening & continuing to listen overtime. Imho there are two ways in which anyone can play the tunes ~ singing & whistling. I recommend to every trad player, buy a D whistle. If there is a session locally, it is worth spending some time listening. Actually playing in a session is a matter unto itself. Though for many of us it's the main reason for learning the music.
I can give you one example of where to learn a tune online. Shannon Heaton, flute player, has a Tune of the Month lesson which she has been posting for over a year now. http://tuneofthemonth.posterous.com/?page=2
The 1st two she does are "Fair Haired Boy" & "Bird in the Bush". She plays each tune up to speed, so you can hear how you want it to sound. Then she goes over the parts, to give you time to play the tunes; phrase by phrase. Sometimes she sings the parts & I think it is good to also sing, before attempting to play, in order to get the tune into your head.
My questions are do you have a few tunes worked up, are you understanding some of the rhythmic articulations (a.k.a. ornaments), do you know any trad musicians ... ?
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Ben Steen
... It's all so simple but a few things help ...
# Posted on December 22nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Nature or nurture?
Currently learning from a mixture of Soodlums whistle tutor book #1 and a chap called RyanDunsSJ on YouTube
Youtube search for tin whistle versions of songs has really been the lifeline to this - it doesn't take too long to get my fingers in the right place, but getting the timing right takes a few hundred play-pause-whistle cycles to work out. I have to really know the tune before I crack it.
Learning on a 'Generation' D whistle.
I've got a couple of tunes that I'm happy with, for instance Dawning of the Day, Star of County Down and Rakes of Mallow. I have a couple of the ornaments on my list that I try to play with - but working out how to best use them needs a bit of practice. I just had to look the word up on wikipedia - turns out my fingers know about cuts, stikes and slides. Rolls look interesting and I tried a few - its quite funny watching my fingers get them completely wrong even though my brain knows what it should be doing. I should probably start thinking up a better excuse than "doing rolls" when my boss asks why I overslept in the morning
I don't know any traditional musicians personally (used to be a few I'd chat to in my old local, but recently moved to London) - I know hundreds on the internet though hehe.
Tune of the month looks pretty useful. I'll give it a go.
Thanks for the help!!
# Posted on December 23rd 2010 by squark
Re: Nature or nurture?
The ornaments are, for the most part, rhythmic; as opposed to melodic. Oftentimes it's not just one articulation(ornament) which you can use. You can actually change how you articulate & phrase individual parts as they come around in the repeats. Sometimes sliding up to a high note will ease you (& other listeners) into something which might otherwise be excruciating.
Have you tried crans on the low d & low e notes?
Michael Eskin has a YouTube channel called Tradlessons. He has tinwhistle as well as a few other instruments.
http://www.tradlessons.com/?cat=4
# Posted on December 23rd 2010 by Ben Steen
You're in London. Any sessions near where you live?
# Posted on December 23rd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Nature or nurture?
I havent found any sessions nearby, but I haven't been here long. The session finder part of this website has quite a few around London in general, which I don't mind travelling for. Hopefully there will be a couple that I can get to after work.
# Posted on December 23rd 2010 by squark
Re: Nature or nurture?
oh, and the crans - yeah I have, but not able to do them particularly quickly yet.
# Posted on December 23rd 2010 by squark
Re: Nature or nurture?
squark, Generation whistles can be a bit hit-and-miss. There are good Generations out there, but you may do well to try a few more types of inexpensive whistles to see if there is one that suits you better.
http://www.bigwhistle.co.uk/ has loads of whistles for under a tenner. They also sell the Dixon Trad for £15 and that's a cracking whistle, I have one myself and play it loads.
Ryan Duns' videos are great. You'll probably also find these pages very useful, if you haven't seen them already - http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/
Read his page on not lifting a finger. It should make Rocky Road a bit easier
# Posted on December 23rd 2010 by Red Menace
Re: Nature or nurture?
All whistles can be, and usually are, hit and miss. The expensive and artisan ones as much as the mass produced and cheap.
# Posted on December 23rd 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski