Hello all,
I play Irish and some other acoustic folk styles of fiddle in a band and am looking for a pick-up. I've always just done the play-into-the-mic thing, or just played in sessions, so this is very new territory and I don't know anything about it. Specifically, I'd like one that doesn't need to be installed but rather is just a clip-on and costs not much more than $200. Also, do you usually need to buy an amp or does a PA/amp for an electric instrument work (as I said, I know absolutely nothing about this!)?
Thanks,
Helen
Reviews for David Gage's "Realist" pickup are good, and it's about 200 bucks. Although it does need to be slipped in under the feet of the bridge, which would discourage taking it off again. There's a Kremona pickup that is economical, and reasonably easy to remove/replace. I got one from http://www.electricviolinshop.com/ although I don't use a pickup any more, because the sound is just not as good. Some say the Schertler (400 bucks) rivals a good mic, but I have heard one, and I'm not convinced.
Any pickup will work with any amp or PA system, but most require a preamp to sound decent. The ART tube preamp is cheap (40 bucks), and versatile (handles both XLR and 1/4-inch cables, at both ends).
I've never heard a pick up on a fiddle that I liked. The all end up sounding tiny and thin, no warmth. If you want electronic, get an electric fiddle.
For a natural "acoustic" sound, a good mic is the way to go. I often use an Audio-Technica 35 clip-on mic that works great. It clips on to the edge of the chin rest and hangs over the bass side f-hole. About $150 - $180. They come set up for either wired or wireless systems. The Sennheiser clip on mic is also very good, but more expensive.
For live gigging I prefer playing into a good mic on a boom stand. Sure 58 mics work well and run only $100 USD or so. But I prefer the sound of the AKG 1000 c (about $280 USD). Or for great sound, if you can afford it, the Neumann KM 184 ($800 - $900).
The first thing to decide is whether you want a pickup or a clip on microphone, which really comes down to whether your priority is for volume or tone. That will depend on what type of band you are playing with - if it's a folk rock or ceilidh band with electric guitars and basses and stuff, then a pickup is probably your best bet. But if you are an acoustic band just using a PA for a bit of reinforcement, then a mic will give you a much better sound.
If you haven't got a good pro-audio shop nearby to advise you, then go to youtube and look for bands similar to your own, and see what they are using.
All violin pickups are piezo electric, so they need a pre-amp - they will make a sound if you plug them straight into a guitar amp or mixer, but it's always very thin and reedy, because there is an impedance mis-match. To work properly they must have a pre-amp. Most clip on mics will drive a mic input on an amp or desk directly, though some need either a separate power supply or phantom power from the amp.
When it comes to recommendations, the DPA4099 is the microphone of choice for the BBC and many orchestras, but it's probably out of your price range. Microvox and Beyerdynamic both make reasonable mics well within your budget.
As for pickups, avoid anything that sticks to the body of the fiddle. The best pickups are those that are fitted to the bridge (which makes them semi-permanent). The best ones are fitted into a hole drilled in the bridge, Beyerdynamic but others slot into the gap below the pendulum on the side of the bridge. Unfortunately that affects the tone slightly when you are playing acoustically, and they are very sensitive to slight changes in position - if you pull the cable and move the pickup a mm it will completely change the sound. The most popular pickup at the moment seem to be Fishman. Their pickups themselves probably aren't any better than anyone elses, but they do an excellent pre-amp to go with it.
.... or a DI-box rather than a pre-amp for pickups.
I did a comparison a while back between a DPA4099 (lent for review) and my own ATM350. In a "studio" situation the DPA was nicer but it is considerably more expensive. The differences would be much less noticeable live.
Both need phantom power, either from a desk or a pre-amp unit.
I had/still have a Microvox fiddle system, clip-on mike and belt-clip pre-amp. The onward connection was by jack to jack cable so you could plug it straight into a "guitar" amp. The sound was nice but it was extremely feed-back prone. It would feed-back playing outdoors through a 5w battery amp!
TomB-R, for a piezo pickup it really needs to be a pre-amp, not a DI box. The DI box matches 1.5K ohm magnetic pickups to the 600 ohm inputs on a mixer, but piezo pickups have an impedence in the 10s of Kohms, and only successfully drive a pre-amp with an equally high input impedance.
And the mic/pickup is only a minor part of a feedback loop - phasing, EQ and monitor placement are far more important. I've engineered for people using 4099s with a 2Kw PA - and still good enough quality to give a broadcast feed direct from the desk.
I agree with what people said so far. I play in dance bands where the volume's not too loud, so never considered a pickup. I much prefer a mic mounted on the fiddle so I never have to deal with a mic stand.
I use an audiotechnica pro 70: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/e6f7342e8d1ceed3/index.html
which I mount in a hollowed out piece of foam (in fact a 2'' length of a/c lagging) that fits snugly under the strings between bridge and tailpiece. This is not an expensive mic - $120 or so. Ease of use and predictability are the big advantages, and I like the sound too. I sometimes have to ask the sound guy to turn the gain down, and usually back off the low mids, round the range of the G string.
Other mics i've heard good things about are the bartlett fiddle mic (mentioned in the page above), countryman isomax, crown glm100, and the dpa mini microphones. Some people swear by the fiddle pro mic: http://www.riml.biz/fiddlepro.html
which has a unique way of mounting.
There's a lot of resources on the web, and probably previous discussions you could find on thesession. If you can try to get 3-4 fiddlers, with different fiddles, together with some different mics and a nice small sound system, and see what you think, that's the best recommendation you'll get.
It's complicated Helendy. It depends a lot on how important your 'sound', your 'tone' is to you. If you need a lot of volume and don't mind that you will sound completely different from the way you sound acoustically then go with a pickup and a dibox/preamp. LRBaggs makes a great box with both and it's used by almost everyone I can think of regardless of which kind of pick up they use.
Be warned though that you will sound VERY VERY different and you will have to adjust your playing significantly if you use a pickup. The string response is very different, and it's hard to do anything subtle with your bow. It's almost another instrument really, like the difference between an electric guitar and an acoustic one.
I can't say enough about what you will lose in your sound.
Check out this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdHR12lPcgI&feature=related
Both these ladies are wonderful players and yet the sound coming out of the pickup on the cello and the fiddle isn't anything like what you would hear if you could hear them acoustically. Some people don't seem to mind the sound quality sacrifice and some people would break into green spots just at the thought of sounding like that for the sake of amplification.
You can get a fantastic amplified sound if you are prepared to go to any lengths to get it. Martin Hayes has a 3 point system with different little condenser mics and pickups, including one embedded in the button of his violin. He is extremely knowledgable about his set up and travels with all his own gear including a big rack of graphic eqs which he rings off himself at the gigs he plays at. The result is the best amplified sound I've ever heard on a fiddle but pretty complicated for the rest of us. There are a few other fiddlers who use a dual system of a pickup and a small condenser mic going into a box to balance and blend the sounds and try to get them to sound as acoustic as possible. Aidan O'Rourke uses a system like that and it sounds pretty good for an electric set up.
You can hear it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msE1CGsG1SY&feature=related
Playing into mics instead of pickups will allow you to sound most like you but there are compromises to those too. You can't move very much as there will be a 'sweet spot' of sound and you have to keep your fiddle in that zone to maintain a good sound, if you weave back and forth a bit or turn to look at someone in your band it's really easy to take yourself away from the mic. You may not enjoy being that 'static' with a mic. You have a bit more freedom with a condenser mic like the AKG 1000 that Will mentioned. I like the AKG 535 even better but they can be difficult to manage if you are playing in really noisy environments like pubs because they pickup EVERYTHING and can be prone to feedback.
The little clip on's he mentioned are a real compromise because they sound a lot like a mic, well, they are mics, but you have a lot more freedom to move around like you would with a pickup. They are usually condenser mics though and behave as condenser mics do in noisy environments, meaning they can lead to feedback problems too.
If it's possible, see if you can rent some of these systems and play with them, see what they will or won't do and how they suit your playing and your sound. It really is best if you figure this out in private, and not at a gig. You don't want to try to figure out how to deal with howling feed back etc in front of an audience of any type. Good luck. I'd be interested to hear back from you about which system you eventually go with and how it works for you.
I'm no expert when it comes to these things, but I use the Fiddle Pro Read Instrument Mic (http://www.riml.biz/) and have been very happy with the sound. It uses a clip that fits into the C-bout, so you can remove it afterwards. Costs $279 apparently.
I don't know if there's a website you can pick up her details on, but the last time I say Eliza Carthy at a gig she had a very neat-looking mike on a little gooseneck that clipped onto the chinrest of her fiddle.
It sounded good to me through the PA.
I use an LR Baggs. It is "installed" as the mic is inside the bridge; however, this means you can play both acoustically or amped when you want to without really changing the tone of the instrument. You just need a good violin/fiddle maker or shop to sand down and adjust the new bridge for you. Works pretty well. You should use a preamp; if you plug the fiddle right into an amp, you'll get that tinny sound so many here complain about. With a preamp you can adjust the treble, bass, gain, etc. before it gets to the sound board. It's good to have a little control at your hip, because, unless your sound person knows about fiddles, they'll just adjust the sound the same way they would for everything else.
One little tip I learned from bitter experience: even if your pre-amp has a belt clip, always put in on the floor. If you wear it, it's all too easy to put your fiddle down on its stand and walk away without unclipping. When you get to the end of the cable your precious fiddle comes flying across the stage, bouncing off every available mic stand before landing at your feet in pieces.
Fiddle pick-up
Fiddle pick-up
Hello all,
I play Irish and some other acoustic folk styles of fiddle in a band and am looking for a pick-up. I've always just done the play-into-the-mic thing, or just played in sessions, so this is very new territory and I don't know anything about it. Specifically, I'd like one that doesn't need to be installed but rather is just a clip-on and costs not much more than $200. Also, do you usually need to buy an amp or does a PA/amp for an electric instrument work (as I said, I know absolutely nothing about this!)?
Thanks,
Helen
# Posted on December 14th 2010 by helendy
Re: Fiddle pick-up
Reviews for David Gage's "Realist" pickup are good, and it's about 200 bucks. Although it does need to be slipped in under the feet of the bridge, which would discourage taking it off again. There's a Kremona pickup that is economical, and reasonably easy to remove/replace. I got one from http://www.electricviolinshop.com/ although I don't use a pickup any more, because the sound is just not as good. Some say the Schertler (400 bucks) rivals a good mic, but I have heard one, and I'm not convinced.
Any pickup will work with any amp or PA system, but most require a preamp to sound decent. The ART tube preamp is cheap (40 bucks), and versatile (handles both XLR and 1/4-inch cables, at both ends).
# Posted on December 14th 2010 by John Galt
Re: Fiddle pick-up
I've never heard a pick up on a fiddle that I liked. The all end up sounding tiny and thin, no warmth. If you want electronic, get an electric fiddle.
For a natural "acoustic" sound, a good mic is the way to go. I often use an Audio-Technica 35 clip-on mic that works great. It clips on to the edge of the chin rest and hangs over the bass side f-hole. About $150 - $180. They come set up for either wired or wireless systems. The Sennheiser clip on mic is also very good, but more expensive.
For live gigging I prefer playing into a good mic on a boom stand. Sure 58 mics work well and run only $100 USD or so. But I prefer the sound of the AKG 1000 c (about $280 USD). Or for great sound, if you can afford it, the Neumann KM 184 ($800 - $900).
# Posted on December 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle pick-up
The first thing to decide is whether you want a pickup or a clip on microphone, which really comes down to whether your priority is for volume or tone. That will depend on what type of band you are playing with - if it's a folk rock or ceilidh band with electric guitars and basses and stuff, then a pickup is probably your best bet. But if you are an acoustic band just using a PA for a bit of reinforcement, then a mic will give you a much better sound.
If you haven't got a good pro-audio shop nearby to advise you, then go to youtube and look for bands similar to your own, and see what they are using.
All violin pickups are piezo electric, so they need a pre-amp - they will make a sound if you plug them straight into a guitar amp or mixer, but it's always very thin and reedy, because there is an impedance mis-match. To work properly they must have a pre-amp. Most clip on mics will drive a mic input on an amp or desk directly, though some need either a separate power supply or phantom power from the amp.
When it comes to recommendations, the DPA4099 is the microphone of choice for the BBC and many orchestras, but it's probably out of your price range. Microvox and Beyerdynamic both make reasonable mics well within your budget.
As for pickups, avoid anything that sticks to the body of the fiddle. The best pickups are those that are fitted to the bridge (which makes them semi-permanent). The best ones are fitted into a hole drilled in the bridge, Beyerdynamic but others slot into the gap below the pendulum on the side of the bridge. Unfortunately that affects the tone slightly when you are playing acoustically, and they are very sensitive to slight changes in position - if you pull the cable and move the pickup a mm it will completely change the sound. The most popular pickup at the moment seem to be Fishman. Their pickups themselves probably aren't any better than anyone elses, but they do an excellent pre-amp to go with it.
# Posted on December 15th 2010 by skreech
Re: Fiddle pick-up
.... or a DI-box rather than a pre-amp for pickups.
I did a comparison a while back between a DPA4099 (lent for review) and my own ATM350. In a "studio" situation the DPA was nicer but it is considerably more expensive. The differences would be much less noticeable live.
Both need phantom power, either from a desk or a pre-amp unit.
# Posted on December 15th 2010 by TomB-R
Re: Fiddle pick-up
I had/still have a Microvox fiddle system, clip-on mike and belt-clip pre-amp. The onward connection was by jack to jack cable so you could plug it straight into a "guitar" amp. The sound was nice but it was extremely feed-back prone. It would feed-back playing outdoors through a 5w battery amp!
# Posted on December 15th 2010 by TomB-R
Re: Fiddle pick-up
TomB-R, for a piezo pickup it really needs to be a pre-amp, not a DI box. The DI box matches 1.5K ohm magnetic pickups to the 600 ohm inputs on a mixer, but piezo pickups have an impedence in the 10s of Kohms, and only successfully drive a pre-amp with an equally high input impedance.
And the mic/pickup is only a minor part of a feedback loop - phasing, EQ and monitor placement are far more important. I've engineered for people using 4099s with a 2Kw PA - and still good enough quality to give a broadcast feed direct from the desk.
# Posted on December 15th 2010 by skreech
Re: Fiddle pick-up
I agree with what people said so far. I play in dance bands where the volume's not too loud, so never considered a pickup. I much prefer a mic mounted on the fiddle so I never have to deal with a mic stand.
I use an audiotechnica pro 70:
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/e6f7342e8d1ceed3/index.html
which I mount in a hollowed out piece of foam (in fact a 2'' length of a/c lagging) that fits snugly under the strings between bridge and tailpiece. This is not an expensive mic - $120 or so. Ease of use and predictability are the big advantages, and I like the sound too. I sometimes have to ask the sound guy to turn the gain down, and usually back off the low mids, round the range of the G string.
I once used to great effect the countryman B3, see here:
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?t=msg&th=57705/0/
(Weogo was doing sound that night)
And this way of mounting is neat:
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=item&category=142&item=24253
maybe even better than my foam hack.
Other mics i've heard good things about are the bartlett fiddle mic (mentioned in the page above), countryman isomax, crown glm100, and the dpa mini microphones. Some people swear by the fiddle pro mic:
http://www.riml.biz/fiddlepro.html
which has a unique way of mounting.
There's a lot of resources on the web, and probably previous discussions you could find on thesession. If you can try to get 3-4 fiddlers, with different fiddles, together with some different mics and a nice small sound system, and see what you think, that's the best recommendation you'll get.
# Posted on December 15th 2010 by ewallace
Re: Fiddle pick-up
It's complicated Helendy. It depends a lot on how important your 'sound', your 'tone' is to you. If you need a lot of volume and don't mind that you will sound completely different from the way you sound acoustically then go with a pickup and a dibox/preamp. LRBaggs makes a great box with both and it's used by almost everyone I can think of regardless of which kind of pick up they use.
Be warned though that you will sound VERY VERY different and you will have to adjust your playing significantly if you use a pickup. The string response is very different, and it's hard to do anything subtle with your bow. It's almost another instrument really, like the difference between an electric guitar and an acoustic one.
I can't say enough about what you will lose in your sound.
Check out this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdHR12lPcgI&feature=related
Both these ladies are wonderful players and yet the sound coming out of the pickup on the cello and the fiddle isn't anything like what you would hear if you could hear them acoustically. Some people don't seem to mind the sound quality sacrifice and some people would break into green spots just at the thought of sounding like that for the sake of amplification.
You can get a fantastic amplified sound if you are prepared to go to any lengths to get it. Martin Hayes has a 3 point system with different little condenser mics and pickups, including one embedded in the button of his violin. He is extremely knowledgable about his set up and travels with all his own gear including a big rack of graphic eqs which he rings off himself at the gigs he plays at. The result is the best amplified sound I've ever heard on a fiddle but pretty complicated for the rest of us. There are a few other fiddlers who use a dual system of a pickup and a small condenser mic going into a box to balance and blend the sounds and try to get them to sound as acoustic as possible. Aidan O'Rourke uses a system like that and it sounds pretty good for an electric set up.
You can hear it here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msE1CGsG1SY&feature=related
Playing into mics instead of pickups will allow you to sound most like you but there are compromises to those too. You can't move very much as there will be a 'sweet spot' of sound and you have to keep your fiddle in that zone to maintain a good sound, if you weave back and forth a bit or turn to look at someone in your band it's really easy to take yourself away from the mic. You may not enjoy being that 'static' with a mic. You have a bit more freedom with a condenser mic like the AKG 1000 that Will mentioned. I like the AKG 535 even better but they can be difficult to manage if you are playing in really noisy environments like pubs because they pickup EVERYTHING and can be prone to feedback.
The little clip on's he mentioned are a real compromise because they sound a lot like a mic, well, they are mics, but you have a lot more freedom to move around like you would with a pickup. They are usually condenser mics though and behave as condenser mics do in noisy environments, meaning they can lead to feedback problems too.
If it's possible, see if you can rent some of these systems and play with them, see what they will or won't do and how they suit your playing and your sound. It really is best if you figure this out in private, and not at a gig. You don't want to try to figure out how to deal with howling feed back etc in front of an audience of any type. Good luck. I'd be interested to hear back from you about which system you eventually go with and how it works for you.
# Posted on December 15th 2010 by Twisty
Re: Fiddle pick-up
I'm no expert when it comes to these things, but I use the Fiddle Pro Read Instrument Mic (http://www.riml.biz/) and have been very happy with the sound. It uses a clip that fits into the C-bout, so you can remove it afterwards. Costs $279 apparently.
# Posted on December 15th 2010 by davedupplaw
Re: Fiddle pick-up
I don't know if there's a website you can pick up her details on, but the last time I say Eliza Carthy at a gig she had a very neat-looking mike on a little gooseneck that clipped onto the chinrest of her fiddle.
It sounded good to me through the PA.
# Posted on December 16th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Fiddle pick-up
I also have the Fiddle Pro mentioned above, and allthough I am very happy with the sound, it has given some feedback problems on several occations.
# Posted on December 16th 2010 by FiddleTramp
Re: Fiddle pick-up
I use an LR Baggs. It is "installed" as the mic is inside the bridge; however, this means you can play both acoustically or amped when you want to without really changing the tone of the instrument. You just need a good violin/fiddle maker or shop to sand down and adjust the new bridge for you. Works pretty well. You should use a preamp; if you plug the fiddle right into an amp, you'll get that tinny sound so many here complain about. With a preamp you can adjust the treble, bass, gain, etc. before it gets to the sound board. It's good to have a little control at your hip, because, unless your sound person knows about fiddles, they'll just adjust the sound the same way they would for everything else.
# Posted on December 16th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: Fiddle pick-up
One little tip I learned from bitter experience: even if your pre-amp has a belt clip, always put in on the floor. If you wear it, it's all too easy to put your fiddle down on its stand and walk away without unclipping. When you get to the end of the cable your precious fiddle comes flying across the stage, bouncing off every available mic stand before landing at your feet in pieces.
# Posted on December 16th 2010 by skreech