I don't get on to well with the relaxed fist hold either, although I think this gives more momentum for less effort and is the way to go if you can. I have my hand open and if I hear my pinky scratching the head I lift my hand slightly. Horses for courses though, there are some mighty pinky anchoring players out there and many of them get by better than me.
coming from Mandolin playing, were it wasnt really an issue, I find this a big problem. Anchor on the skin and the sound just dies... Tried anchoring on the bridge, but you're not able to get the right noise out of the Banjo then. Too long playng with bad habits on the Mando I guess and too old to learn new tricks
Any permutation of the following: increased precision, loss of resonance, improved resonance, lack of precision, loss of freedom and fluidity, increase in difficulty, cramp in fingers or pain in forearm... you pays your money and you takes your choice.
When I started out on the banjo a few years back I got a bit of a surprise/shock/bumped down a peg or two, as I thought I was quite handy with the plectrum, everyday is a school day.
A year into it I still hadn't settled on right hand position. For the last few years I've anchored (ish) my wrist on the rim/rest allowing my hand to float above the strings enabling me to keep my hand/fingers away from the head or bridge. I've learned new depths to picking techniques I hadn't appreciated before.
Consistency is the tricky bit, but perseverance has payed dividends and once I got consistent with my right hand position quite a bit just seem to come together for me.
When I was first learning to play, I started with an anchored pinky because I saw some people doing that. It evolved into brushing the head, because the anchor was dampening the sound too much, and then a few years later, I worked pretty hard to curl the fingers up.
It's really an economy of motion thing, and without the fingers anchored or the friction on the head, or even the momentum of fingers flailing about, I feel like my picking has become more accurate.
Like Solidmahog, I am anchored on the arm rest, although, the palm of my hand lightly touches the strings behind the bridge, which helps provide a point of reference. So I don't quite get the full-fledged floating right hand, and the sound from the instrument is every so slightly dampened because of that. But for me, it's a tradeoff of a little bit of sustain for a lot more accuracy. I can play with my hand floating completely, but not very well.
FWIW. I've had lessons from Brian Tehany and Angelina Carberry at various workshops. They both discourage placing finger(s) on the head of the banjo. Instead, they recommend letting a small part of your palm rest lightly on the strings behind the bridge to, as Reverend says, provide a point of reference.
No doubt it's possible to find good players who have different techniques for the right hand, including touching the head - to each his/her own style. However, anchoring your right hand on the head may dampen down the sound, and may also restrict the range of right hand motion over short periods of time.
There is no orthodox position for the right hand, but there are more efficient ways to play. Anchoring (i.e. a solid rest on the head) does make the stroke inefficient and hurts the tone. Brushing in order to orient your hand is a very common way of playing. There is some problem with tone, but it is very efficient and consistent.
He teaches a very small (mm size) stroke and no excessive movement. His triplets are almost invisible and he is able to make them happen at any time. Of course, he is a genius.
One addendum, you will notice that Darren also uses a longer portion of the pick below his fingers than a lot of players do. Instead of a harder/longer stroke in order to increase volume, he digs the pick into the string a little more imparting more energy that way.
I find that I can't use that technique, I have to make a longer stronger stroke that decreases my efficiency. His loud stroke is longer (more vertical while mine is more horizontal) in that there is more pick surface used but he does not stray more than a few mm past the string while I do.
I use an arm rest on both my banjo's. But I dont like to 'rest' my arm because even with the curve and some padding on the rest it can still dig in.
So I try to carry my arm as loosely as possible not really anchoring much, or as little as possible. I think this might be similar to the 'manouche' guitar picking style. Like others I started on mandolin, then mandola to banjo, but I already had a lot of guitar and bass picking established before that.
When i have no arm rest I tend to rest the heel of my hand on the strings behind the bridge, however I also rest it as a mute on the other side of the bridge sometimes, a bit like an electric guitar player would to control the sound.
Its partly as a 'flavour ' but also, the fact is we banjo players get slagged to feck by other musicians because we can be mighty loud and 'unintentionally' domineering. In our innocence we don't realise this sometimes. So I purposely get my banjos as quiet as possible, even put a sock in the back!
Playing with one fiddler say, its good to keep the volume down. sure in a big session let her rip. !!! Nothing like a banjo for wild sessions.
I also favour a hide skin for the warmer sound , but realistically for pubs etc I use a fibyr skin [i think it is]
I try for the floating method, but if I'm feeling lack of confidence due to cold hands, uncomfortable sitting/standing position, or any other awkwardness, I tend to start "brushing".
i started anchoring with guitars and such and now it feels very strange when i dont. i like the sound from the banjo but i feel like its slowly doing something to my little finger (i guess thats what your talking about, ive had a few!) it feels like the bones are starting to grate on each other very slightly. i doubt this is normal and i have done myself some damage but its worth being wary of finger locking habits!
"I try for the floating method, but if I'm feeling lack of confidence due to cold hands, uncomfortable sitting/standing position, or any other awkwardness, I tend to start "brushing".
Oldstrings, I do something similar.
After reading the Rev's post yesterday I checked out just how much of a floater I actually am once I got back to the digs. I find that whilst I'm not really touching, much, I seem to just touch the tip of my extended pinky off the head every now and again, very lightly and the heal of my hand just touches the top edge of the tail piece. So not completely floating.
I, too, went back and played with the floating hand, and realized that, besides being bad at it, I don't actually like the sound. Too much reverb and overtones that are noticeably different than every so lightly touching the head or bridge. Maybe I'm just use to the sound the way I play, but all that extra reverb is annoying! I don't think you want to dampen the sound much, but that slight dampening gives it a more crisp, less muddy sound. At least on my SilverBell.
Likewise, Pete, I don't like the sound of my banjo undampened.
My third and fourth fingers are rather solidly planted on the head, although they do move around as I choose to pick nearer and farther from the bridge. I don't do this on either guitar or mandolin, which I have been playing longer - I'm a total free-floater on those two. I do it on banjo solely to get the best tone, to my ears, possible. I'm baffled by those that think that any contact degrades the tone. Nor do I find planting my fingers thus technically inhibiting, but I do have very large hands, which may help me.
Yeah, the sound is different but the skin choice effects this.
So if ye have a spare banjo , put a hide skin on and try the float.
And string and pick choice are crucial factors in our tone. I use a 1mm nylon pick with heavyish strings 12/13 on the top E. and a heavy hand.
All of my banjos are setup with brushing fingers in mind. As a result they have a lot of sustain when I don't brush but sound good when I do. If you play with a floating hand like Darren Moloney or Gerry O'Connor your banjo needs less sustain. If you ever get to play one of their instruments and use the brush or plant, you can tell as you will not get the tone you normally do with your own banjo even if they are similar instruments.
If you do change styles, you will have to setup differently. Mostly this will mean a change in head tension and bridge but it can involve strings and pick.
Most people will find the style that suits them best. When they do, they can setup their banjos accordingly.
What Mike says is certainly true - my banjo setup and technique co-evolved, so to speak. I'm sure that if I resolved to not touch the head, I could make some changes in setup, strings, picks, etc. and get a sound at least closer to what I want. But finding the current state of affairs at least satisfactory, and seeing no clear handicaps to future development as a player, I'm uninclined to do so.
I swear by the old Elton pickguards
I have two now - there is one on eBay now ref no
380292822644
They are easy fit with no permanent fixings and are rigidly fixed above the head without touching it
This allows pinky to lightly brush without eroding the fingernail or damping the tone
It also allows you to move up the strings nearer the 'soundhole' when you want a more mellow tone
I think they are essential and have used them on all my banjos including my Dave Boyle
Not everyone agrees mind - Brian (Kelly) said it got in his way and Damien O'Kane just asked what it was for!
I love them however and recommend them to anyone
I could send pics or video if anyone is interested
Cheers
piobagusfidil - send me your e-mail and I will send some photos
I fitted it straight to the 'f' holes in the resonator flange on the Dave Boyle - these is a fair amount of adjustment possible to get it near the top string without impeding your playing
I did make some stainless threaded sleeves to set the height but this was to avoid marking the beloved Boyle - you can just use the locknuts which come with it with maybe a fibre washer to protect the flange surface
I did make some special stainless brackets for my previous banjos to fit these guards, but you shouldn't find them too hard to fit - I am an engineer so they were fairly easy for me - I'm sure any Banjo maker / repairer would fit one for a small fee
They really are good for me but you need to try it for yourself
They are fairly rare - I've only seen 4 on e-bay in last few years, and I have three of those! - should be about £50 ish from past experience, butI suppose it depends who is interested
banjo question
Re: banjo question
Don't know Gemini, I don't and still get by.
I don't get on to well with the relaxed fist hold either, although I think this gives more momentum for less effort and is the way to go if you can. I have my hand open and if I hear my pinky scratching the head I lift my hand slightly. Horses for courses though, there are some mighty pinky anchoring players out there and many of them get by better than me.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: banjo question
coming from Mandolin playing, were it wasnt really an issue, I find this a big problem. Anchor on the skin and the sound just dies... Tried anchoring on the bridge, but you're not able to get the right noise out of the Banjo then. Too long playng with bad habits on the Mando I guess and too old to learn new tricks
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by stripthewillow
Re: banjo question
Any permutation of the following: increased precision, loss of resonance, improved resonance, lack of precision, loss of freedom and fluidity, increase in difficulty, cramp in fingers or pain in forearm... you pays your money and you takes your choice.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by gam
Re: banjo question
When I started out on the banjo a few years back I got a bit of a surprise/shock/bumped down a peg or two, as I thought I was quite handy with the plectrum, everyday is a school day.
A year into it I still hadn't settled on right hand position. For the last few years I've anchored (ish) my wrist on the rim/rest allowing my hand to float above the strings enabling me to keep my hand/fingers away from the head or bridge. I've learned new depths to picking techniques I hadn't appreciated before.
Consistency is the tricky bit, but perseverance has payed dividends and once I got consistent with my right hand position quite a bit just seem to come together for me.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: banjo question
When I was first learning to play, I started with an anchored pinky because I saw some people doing that. It evolved into brushing the head, because the anchor was dampening the sound too much, and then a few years later, I worked pretty hard to curl the fingers up.
It's really an economy of motion thing, and without the fingers anchored or the friction on the head, or even the momentum of fingers flailing about, I feel like my picking has become more accurate.
Like Solidmahog, I am anchored on the arm rest, although, the palm of my hand lightly touches the strings behind the bridge, which helps provide a point of reference. So I don't quite get the full-fledged floating right hand, and the sound from the instrument is every so slightly dampened because of that. But for me, it's a tradeoff of a little bit of sustain for a lot more accuracy. I can play with my hand floating completely, but not very well.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Reverend
Re: banjo question
FWIW. I've had lessons from Brian Tehany and Angelina Carberry at various workshops. They both discourage placing finger(s) on the head of the banjo. Instead, they recommend letting a small part of your palm rest lightly on the strings behind the bridge to, as Reverend says, provide a point of reference.
No doubt it's possible to find good players who have different techniques for the right hand, including touching the head - to each his/her own style. However, anchoring your right hand on the head may dampen down the sound, and may also restrict the range of right hand motion over short periods of time.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by dfost
Re: banjo question
There is no orthodox position for the right hand, but there are more efficient ways to play. Anchoring (i.e. a solid rest on the head) does make the stroke inefficient and hurts the tone. Brushing in order to orient your hand is a very common way of playing. There is some problem with tone, but it is very efficient and consistent.
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSiOtr2i5EQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL) is a video of Darren Moloney teaching his very efficient right hand.
He teaches a very small (mm size) stroke and no excessive movement. His triplets are almost invisible and he is able to make them happen at any time. Of course, he is a genius.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by mikeyes
Re: banjo question
One addendum, you will notice that Darren also uses a longer portion of the pick below his fingers than a lot of players do. Instead of a harder/longer stroke in order to increase volume, he digs the pick into the string a little more imparting more energy that way.
I find that I can't use that technique, I have to make a longer stronger stroke that decreases my efficiency. His loud stroke is longer (more vertical while mine is more horizontal) in that there is more pick surface used but he does not stray more than a few mm past the string while I do.
Mike Keyes
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by mikeyes
Re: banjo question
The above replies simply confirm that there's ..... "more than one way to skin a cat"!
.
In other words, no right or wrong way, what works for you might not work for me - & vice versa!
In time, we all find a style & techniques that suit us best. You've just got to try them all, to find what works best for you.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: banjo question
I use an arm rest on both my banjo's. But I dont like to 'rest' my arm because even with the curve and some padding on the rest it can still dig in.
So I try to carry my arm as loosely as possible not really anchoring much, or as little as possible. I think this might be similar to the 'manouche' guitar picking style. Like others I started on mandolin, then mandola to banjo, but I already had a lot of guitar and bass picking established before that.
When i have no arm rest I tend to rest the heel of my hand on the strings behind the bridge, however I also rest it as a mute on the other side of the bridge sometimes, a bit like an electric guitar player would to control the sound.
Its partly as a 'flavour ' but also, the fact is we banjo players get slagged to feck by other musicians because we can be mighty loud and 'unintentionally' domineering. In our innocence we don't realise this sometimes. So I purposely get my banjos as quiet as possible, even put a sock in the back!
Playing with one fiddler say, its good to keep the volume down. sure in a big session let her rip. !!! Nothing like a banjo for wild sessions.
I also favour a hide skin for the warmer sound , but realistically for pubs etc I use a fibyr skin [i think it is]
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: banjo question
I try for the floating method, but if I'm feeling lack of confidence due to cold hands, uncomfortable sitting/standing position, or any other awkwardness, I tend to start "brushing".
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: banjo question
Gemini - your response- "I don't do so myself" was as correct a one as you could possibly have given.
Jig - as long as you're putting a sock in it....
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: banjo question
That would be a good description oldstrings. I like that. cheers
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by piobagusfidil
i started anchoring with guitars and such and now it feels very strange when i dont. i like the sound from the banjo but i feel like its slowly doing something to my little finger (i guess thats what your talking about, ive had a few!) it feels like the bones are starting to grate on each other very slightly. i doubt this is normal and i have done myself some damage but its worth being wary of finger locking habits!
# Posted on November 27th 2010 by christofloffer
Re: banjo question
"I try for the floating method, but if I'm feeling lack of confidence due to cold hands, uncomfortable sitting/standing position, or any other awkwardness, I tend to start "brushing".
Oldstrings, I do something similar.
After reading the Rev's post yesterday I checked out just how much of a floater I actually am once I got back to the digs. I find that whilst I'm not really touching, much, I seem to just touch the tip of my extended pinky off the head every now and again, very lightly and the heal of my hand just touches the top edge of the tail piece. So not completely floating.
# Posted on November 27th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: banjo question
I, too, went back and played with the floating hand, and realized that, besides being bad at it, I don't actually like the sound. Too much reverb and overtones that are noticeably different than every so lightly touching the head or bridge. Maybe I'm just use to the sound the way I play, but all that extra reverb is annoying! I don't think you want to dampen the sound much, but that slight dampening gives it a more crisp, less muddy sound. At least on my SilverBell.
# Posted on November 27th 2010 by Reverend
Re: banjo question
Likewise, Pete, I don't like the sound of my banjo undampened.
My third and fourth fingers are rather solidly planted on the head, although they do move around as I choose to pick nearer and farther from the bridge. I don't do this on either guitar or mandolin, which I have been playing longer - I'm a total free-floater on those two. I do it on banjo solely to get the best tone, to my ears, possible. I'm baffled by those that think that any contact degrades the tone. Nor do I find planting my fingers thus technically inhibiting, but I do have very large hands, which may help me.
# Posted on November 27th 2010 by will morgan
Re: banjo question
Yeah, the sound is different but the skin choice effects this.
So if ye have a spare banjo , put a hide skin on and try the float.
And string and pick choice are crucial factors in our tone. I use a 1mm nylon pick with heavyish strings 12/13 on the top E. and a heavy hand.
# Posted on November 27th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: banjo question
All of my banjos are setup with brushing fingers in mind. As a result they have a lot of sustain when I don't brush but sound good when I do. If you play with a floating hand like Darren Moloney or Gerry O'Connor your banjo needs less sustain. If you ever get to play one of their instruments and use the brush or plant, you can tell as you will not get the tone you normally do with your own banjo even if they are similar instruments.
If you do change styles, you will have to setup differently. Mostly this will mean a change in head tension and bridge but it can involve strings and pick.
Most people will find the style that suits them best. When they do, they can setup their banjos accordingly.
Mike Keyes
Http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on November 27th 2010 by mikeyes
Re: banjo question
What Mike says is certainly true - my banjo setup and technique co-evolved, so to speak. I'm sure that if I resolved to not touch the head, I could make some changes in setup, strings, picks, etc. and get a sound at least closer to what I want. But finding the current state of affairs at least satisfactory, and seeing no clear handicaps to future development as a player, I'm uninclined to do so.
# Posted on November 27th 2010 by will morgan
Re: banjo question
I swear by the old Elton pickguards
I have two now - there is one on eBay now ref no
380292822644
They are easy fit with no permanent fixings and are rigidly fixed above the head without touching it
This allows pinky to lightly brush without eroding the fingernail or damping the tone
It also allows you to move up the strings nearer the 'soundhole' when you want a more mellow tone
I think they are essential and have used them on all my banjos including my Dave Boyle
Not everyone agrees mind - Brian (Kelly) said it got in his way and Damien O'Kane just asked what it was for!
I love them however and recommend them to anyone
I could send pics or video if anyone is interested
Cheers
# Posted on November 28th 2010 by Enob
Re: banjo question
I had a look Enob, how do you fit it?
photos ?
# Posted on November 28th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: banjo question
piobagusfidil - send me your e-mail and I will send some photos
I fitted it straight to the 'f' holes in the resonator flange on the Dave Boyle - these is a fair amount of adjustment possible to get it near the top string without impeding your playing
I did make some stainless threaded sleeves to set the height but this was to avoid marking the beloved Boyle - you can just use the locknuts which come with it with maybe a fibre washer to protect the flange surface
I did make some special stainless brackets for my previous banjos to fit these guards, but you shouldn't find them too hard to fit - I am an engineer so they were fairly easy for me - I'm sure any Banjo maker / repairer would fit one for a small fee
They really are good for me but you need to try it for yourself
They are fairly rare - I've only seen 4 on e-bay in last few years, and I have three of those! - should be about £50 ish from past experience, butI suppose it depends who is interested
# Posted on November 29th 2010 by Enob