Just picked up a new, handmade bouzouki, and am having trouble with the low D strings. Basically, when I tune it in, it sounds fine on the first few frets, but as I go further up the neck (5th fret +), the lower of the two D strings goes increasingly flat. The instrument has a movable bridge. Any suggestions?
Yeah, bring that end of the bridge closer to the nut, shortening and sharpening the string. mm by mm little by little till the 12th fret not sounds the same as the 12th fret harmonic. this should be the same on each string, you will likely end up with the bridge slated with the lower strings about a cm longer than the thinner, higher strings. should do it.
Of course your likely to get half a dozen non bazouki players coming along and telling you what crap advice that is LOL,
spellbreaker's right. be careful-- half a milimeter out, the bridge will mess up your notes. make sure the bridge is 100% parallel to the nut and 90 degrees exactly tot he string direction.
if you can't get it right yourself (and this is often quite likely...set-up is not an easy thing to do), get a set-up done by a pro. this is the best $40 you could ever spend.
just asking - but is it a cheap bouzouki?
reason i ask is because I bought a bouzouki for 200euro, including a pick up, and its impossible to keep the thing in tune!!!
You should check with the luthier first, if it's a handmade bouzouki.
Certainly there should be a slight slant on the bridge position, to compensate for the different strings - an ideal bridge both has the whole bridge slanted slightly, but also a compensation on the saddle/top of the bridge, with the E and D strings coming off the front of the bridge, and the A and G strings having a rebate filed into the front of the saddle, so that the front edge of the bridge for them is 3 or 4 millimeters further back.
This provides for effective compensation for what a physicist friend of mine called "end effect", ie the end of a heavier string is effectively less flexible, so the string needs to be a bit longer to pay the same note.
Chris Stolz - just look at the saddle on a guitar - is that at right angles to the strings ? - no it is not ! The bridge is, but the saddle is compensated. Modern bridges are made with two saddles, one slanted to best suit the two plain strings, and a second one set for best effort for the covered strings.
There are bouzoukis made with the bridge at right angles, but a slanted ivory/bone saddle set into the top. The lower strings need to be longer, plus further corrections between strings.
Pete is correct. As you go down the octaves to a bass guitar for example, each string has a separate saddle to adjust for intonation setting. It can be done by ear or with a good accurate tuner, I could recomend a model but you can probably guess!
Just go slowly constantly checking your 2 reference points, . once you have it close, the instrument in good tune you can play and sense if something is still in need of very fine tuning.
Measure the distance from the nut (or the zero fret if it has one) to the 12th fret. Then place the bridge so that the edge of the saddle on the soundhole sid is the same distance. That's your starting point. If you find it playing flat then as suggested move the bridge a tiny bit closer toward the soundhole to shorten the length and raise the pitch. If it's sharp, move in the opposite direction. I wouldn't be surprised if you have to skew the bridge a bit so the lower strings side is a bit longer .
Having the bridge twice the distance from nut to 12th fret is a MINIMUM.
On a fine string it will be only millimetres short, but this will already make the string play SHARP. You do also have the complication of the actual pressure of pushing the string down to the fret will tighten the string slightly, so making it sharp again, or extra.
Accurate fretting is also a must, but you're stuck with what you get from the luthier/shop/factory.
It's a complicated business, which is why, if you haven't grasped it, you need a good luthier.
I was attending an instrument-building class many years ago, because you can't knock having a trained luthier on hand and in a good workshop, when a young guy came in who'd signed up for a years' classes simply because his electric guitar was playing out of tune and he couldn't understand why. It turned out he'd re-strung his instrument with a light-gauge set of strings, which use a plain wire third, while the bridge compensation was still set for a heavier gauge, which used a covered third. Although heavier in weight, the covered third needed less compensation because the core wire is much thinner, and so is more flexible. For such complications is the luthiers' skill and knowledge essential !
Incidentally, some people complain that the octave stringing on the lower two pairs goes out of tune as you go up the fingerboard. I've never found this myself - I reckon that the commercially available bouzouki sets are well-judged in their choice of gauges, and `i find no problems, and I like playing chords that use some open and some high-fretted strings. This problem with differences in intonation on octave pairs used to be much more common on 12-string guitars many years ago, both because they hadn't sorted out the gauges correctly, plus the lack of opportunity to adjust the saddle compensation.
Looking at my octave mando, the bridge is at right angles...but the bridge also has offsets for the various strings. On my mando, same deal-- 90 degress to strings, but the bridge is customised. The OP's set up is going to depend on the instrument, string guage and bridge.
I would (at least for the first time) take the thing in to a luthier and get a set-up done...and watch while s/he does it. One good trick is, when the bridge is on, put a small piece of clear tape on the body, right beside the bridge, so you knwo where to put it. Also, keep the string box, so you know what gauge to buy when you change, and when you do change, change one course at a time so things don't shift.
Just a minor query - I would think that the only way to have the strings forming a 90 degree angle with the bridge would be if the nut was the same width and had the same string spacings as the bridge. On my mandolin the spacing from the G string to the E string is 22mm at the nut and 36mm at the bridge, so the only way that the strings could be at 90 degrees would be if the bridge was slightly curved - which it isn't.
Ooh your a sharp one Bruce well spotted!
Thanks for that Pete, very interesting. I had not gone into such fine detail, I suppose I just adjust by ear not really thinking about wound/unwound strings.
Although I know that the thicker strings needed to be saddled in the right place I didnt know about 'end effect' I will google it and read up about it. Altogether a very productive thread for me be it only fine technical detail. As they say,; ''the divil is in the detail.''
It also helps to make sure that your strings are a good gauges for the scale length. A friend of mine wrote this applet for determining string tensions http://www.surveyor.com/guitar/stringtension.html
If you adjust your string gauges so that you get a similar tension on each string, then you will have fewer problems with a particular string (or strings) being out of tune up the neck, because you will be bending each string about the same distance to get it to the fretboard, and increasing the tension proportionally the same amount.
If your D string gauge is too heavy, then it will be at a higher tension than the other strings, and bending it the same amount to reach the frets will make it proportionally sharper than the other strings...
Some people also make the point that the gauge of the core wire in wrapped strings makes a difference too. Which is why I tend to use wrapped A strings on my instruments, because it will have the same size core wire as the other strings. If you use plain steel A strings, they will be a much heavier wire than the core wire of the other wrapped strings...
Oh, Reverend, do wrapped strings really all have the same gauge of core string ?
I haven't yet looked to check, but I'm surprised to hear it. I'll go and look and call back.......
....I might learn something new today.
OK I just got out my tools and had a chat with my tech and this is what i noticed regarding mandolin set-up (same goes for zouk and OM).
a) i was wrong-- the bridge is not at 90 degrees to strings. it is in fact at a slight angle-- like 2 degrees off-- you can barely see it w/o measuring it with the angle.
b) My tech said that how the bridge is set depends on string thickness, type of bridge, instrument, yadda yadda. Basically, since most instruments have slight variations (even two of the same model will be slightly different) there is no "magic recipe" or simple formula telling you where the bridge should go.
"correct" set up (as lots of people above said) does mean that 12th fret pressed and 12th harmonic are identical (assuming the action is properly set) BUT in order to get this right, you also have to ensure proper truss-rod tension for strings.
So, basically, spend the $50 and get a pro set-up, and when you are done, remember your string thickness and brand, and tape edge of bridge so you can do it yoruself next time. And if anything changes-- ie you move to diff strings, or you change the action-- get a tech to look at it again. Tiny changes make huge differences in sound.
Oh no Pete it's a standard term in physics , Im just wondering if its similar to the end effect in Vibrating Air columns? but none of my text books deal with it in detail in strings..
Sure its not important as long as the actual practical application is understood.
>> Oh, Reverend, do wrapped strings really all have the same gauge of core string ?
It depends on your strings, of course. But I do believe that the strings I use all have standard sized core, and I think that the heavier strings actually have two layers of winding around the core. (Bass guitar strings often have 3 layers of windings, I believe).
One of these days, it will be time to change my bouzouki strings, and I'll tear a few apart to see.
Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
Just picked up a new, handmade bouzouki, and am having trouble with the low D strings. Basically, when I tune it in, it sounds fine on the first few frets, but as I go further up the neck (5th fret +), the lower of the two D strings goes increasingly flat. The instrument has a movable bridge. Any suggestions?
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Johnny Madra
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
Yeah, bring that end of the bridge closer to the nut, shortening and sharpening the string. mm by mm little by little till the 12th fret not sounds the same as the 12th fret harmonic. this should be the same on each string, you will likely end up with the bridge slated with the lower strings about a cm longer than the thinner, higher strings. should do it.
Of course your likely to get half a dozen non bazouki players coming along and telling you what crap advice that is
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
note even
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
Go raibh maith agat, a chara. Will give it a go.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Johnny Madra
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
spellbreaker's right. be careful-- half a milimeter out, the bridge will mess up your notes. make sure the bridge is 100% parallel to the nut and 90 degrees exactly tot he string direction.
if you can't get it right yourself (and this is often quite likely...set-up is not an easy thing to do), get a set-up done by a pro. this is the best $40 you could ever spend.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by chris stolz
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
Parallel to the nut and 90 degrees to the strings?!? You sure? Maybe if they were all the same string...
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by EnDaC
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
just asking - but is it a cheap bouzouki?
reason i ask is because I bought a bouzouki for 200euro, including a pick up, and its impossible to keep the thing in tune!!!
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by banjo'd
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
You should check with the luthier first, if it's a handmade bouzouki.
Certainly there should be a slight slant on the bridge position, to compensate for the different strings - an ideal bridge both has the whole bridge slanted slightly, but also a compensation on the saddle/top of the bridge, with the E and D strings coming off the front of the bridge, and the A and G strings having a rebate filed into the front of the saddle, so that the front edge of the bridge for them is 3 or 4 millimeters further back.
This provides for effective compensation for what a physicist friend of mine called "end effect", ie the end of a heavier string is effectively less flexible, so the string needs to be a bit longer to pay the same note.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
Chris Stolz - just look at the saddle on a guitar - is that at right angles to the strings ? - no it is not ! The bridge is, but the saddle is compensated. Modern bridges are made with two saddles, one slanted to best suit the two plain strings, and a second one set for best effort for the covered strings.
There are bouzoukis made with the bridge at right angles, but a slanted ivory/bone saddle set into the top. The lower strings need to be longer, plus further corrections between strings.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
Pete is correct. As you go down the octaves to a bass guitar for example, each string has a separate saddle to adjust for intonation setting. It can be done by ear or with a good accurate tuner, I could recomend a model but you can probably guess!
Just go slowly constantly checking your 2 reference points, . once you have it close, the instrument in good tune you can play and sense if something is still in need of very fine tuning.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
Measure the distance from the nut (or the zero fret if it has one) to the 12th fret. Then place the bridge so that the edge of the saddle on the soundhole sid is the same distance. That's your starting point. If you find it playing flat then as suggested move the bridge a tiny bit closer toward the soundhole to shorten the length and raise the pitch. If it's sharp, move in the opposite direction. I wouldn't be surprised if you have to skew the bridge a bit so the lower strings side is a bit longer .
A bit like this \
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Steve L
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
Having the bridge twice the distance from nut to 12th fret is a MINIMUM.
On a fine string it will be only millimetres short, but this will already make the string play SHARP. You do also have the complication of the actual pressure of pushing the string down to the fret will tighten the string slightly, so making it sharp again, or extra.
Accurate fretting is also a must, but you're stuck with what you get from the luthier/shop/factory.
It's a complicated business, which is why, if you haven't grasped it, you need a good luthier.
I was attending an instrument-building class many years ago, because you can't knock having a trained luthier on hand and in a good workshop, when a young guy came in who'd signed up for a years' classes simply because his electric guitar was playing out of tune and he couldn't understand why. It turned out he'd re-strung his instrument with a light-gauge set of strings, which use a plain wire third, while the bridge compensation was still set for a heavier gauge, which used a covered third. Although heavier in weight, the covered third needed less compensation because the core wire is much thinner, and so is more flexible. For such complications is the luthiers' skill and knowledge essential !
Incidentally, some people complain that the octave stringing on the lower two pairs goes out of tune as you go up the fingerboard. I've never found this myself - I reckon that the commercially available bouzouki sets are well-judged in their choice of gauges, and `i find no problems, and I like playing chords that use some open and some high-fretted strings. This problem with differences in intonation on octave pairs used to be much more common on 12-string guitars many years ago, both because they hadn't sorted out the gauges correctly, plus the lack of opportunity to adjust the saddle compensation.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
G Pete--
Looking at my octave mando, the bridge is at right angles...but the bridge also has offsets for the various strings. On my mando, same deal-- 90 degress to strings, but the bridge is customised. The OP's set up is going to depend on the instrument, string guage and bridge.
I would (at least for the first time) take the thing in to a luthier and get a set-up done...and watch while s/he does it. One good trick is, when the bridge is on, put a small piece of clear tape on the body, right beside the bridge, so you knwo where to put it. Also, keep the string box, so you know what gauge to buy when you change, and when you do change, change one course at a time so things don't shift.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by chris stolz
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
Just a minor query - I would think that the only way to have the strings forming a 90 degree angle with the bridge would be if the nut was the same width and had the same string spacings as the bridge. On my mandolin the spacing from the G string to the E string is 22mm at the nut and 36mm at the bridge, so the only way that the strings could be at 90 degrees would be if the bridge was slightly curved - which it isn't.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Bruce
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
Ooh your a sharp one Bruce
well spotted!
Thanks for that Pete, very interesting. I had not gone into such fine detail, I suppose I just adjust by ear not really thinking about wound/unwound strings.
Although I know that the thicker strings needed to be saddled in the right place I didnt know about 'end effect' I will google it and read up about it. Altogether a very productive thread for me be it only fine technical detail. As they say,; ''the divil is in the detail.''
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
It also helps to make sure that your strings are a good gauges for the scale length. A friend of mine wrote this applet for determining string tensions http://www.surveyor.com/guitar/stringtension.html
If you adjust your string gauges so that you get a similar tension on each string, then you will have fewer problems with a particular string (or strings) being out of tune up the neck, because you will be bending each string about the same distance to get it to the fretboard, and increasing the tension proportionally the same amount.
If your D string gauge is too heavy, then it will be at a higher tension than the other strings, and bending it the same amount to reach the frets will make it proportionally sharper than the other strings...
Some people also make the point that the gauge of the core wire in wrapped strings makes a difference too. Which is why I tend to use wrapped A strings on my instruments, because it will have the same size core wire as the other strings. If you use plain steel A strings, they will be a much heavier wire than the core wire of the other wrapped strings...
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
Oh, Reverend, do wrapped strings really all have the same gauge of core string ?
I haven't yet looked to check, but I'm surprised to hear it. I'll go and look and call back.......
....I might learn something new today.
# Posted on November 27th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
OK I just got out my tools and had a chat with my tech and this is what i noticed regarding mandolin set-up (same goes for zouk and OM).
a) i was wrong-- the bridge is not at 90 degrees to strings. it is in fact at a slight angle-- like 2 degrees off-- you can barely see it w/o measuring it with the angle.
b) My tech said that how the bridge is set depends on string thickness, type of bridge, instrument, yadda yadda. Basically, since most instruments have slight variations (even two of the same model will be slightly different) there is no "magic recipe" or simple formula telling you where the bridge should go.
"correct" set up (as lots of people above said) does mean that 12th fret pressed and 12th harmonic are identical (assuming the action is properly set) BUT in order to get this right, you also have to ensure proper truss-rod tension for strings.
So, basically, spend the $50 and get a pro set-up, and when you are done, remember your string thickness and brand, and tape edge of bridge so you can do it yoruself next time. And if anything changes-- ie you move to diff strings, or you change the action-- get a tech to look at it again. Tiny changes make huge differences in sound.
# Posted on November 27th 2010 by chris stolz
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
NHB - "End effect" may simply be my friends' name for the phenomenon. If you can't find chapter and verse on it, I'm all apologetic.
# Posted on November 27th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
Oh no Pete it's a standard term in physics , Im just wondering if its similar to the end effect in Vibrating Air columns? but none of my text books deal with it in detail in strings..
Sure its not important as long as the actual practical application is understood.
# Posted on November 27th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Difficulty tuning bouzouki - strings going flat.
>> Oh, Reverend, do wrapped strings really all have the same gauge of core string ?
It depends on your strings, of course. But I do believe that the strings I use all have standard sized core, and I think that the heavier strings actually have two layers of winding around the core. (Bass guitar strings often have 3 layers of windings, I believe).
One of these days, it will be time to change my bouzouki strings, and I'll tear a few apart to see.
# Posted on November 28th 2010 by Reverend