Hi , I'm learnig violin and was wondering if anyone knew of an on screen tuner that will let me see my notes as I play them , my korg tuner is just too small to read while playing . have mic and laptop at the ready.
many thanks
Paul
Go for the peterson, they are IMO the only tuner worth bothering with. Whats the point of a tuner that is inaccurate? google them. It will cost a little but is top quality.
I recomend their new clip on tuner. Its brilliant. 60 £ is well worth every penny.
To continue, a fiddle tuner must give perfect fifths. So any tuner that is not specifically designed for fiddle is going to put you on the wrong footing.
Further more as each note is actually not one note, but a series of overtones, as you move up the overtone series accuracy becomes even more important. Even if a standard tuner, giving you 'perfect' fifths works on the fundamental it wont be accurate enough to attain good tuning in the overtone series. Thats why accuracy of .2 cent to .1 cent is important.
Learn to tune by ear, learn to play by ear. play lots of simple scales such as , G D A concentrating on good intonation, drone open strings wherever possible as reference .
You can demo the product, but you have to pay upfront:
"REFUND POLICY: You can demo StroboSoft 2.0 for a 15-day trial. A paid purchase must be made to receive the installation files and a serial. This is a fully-working demo without limited functionality.
Should you not be happy with your purchase at any time during the trial period, a refund will be provided up to 15 days from registration (not from the purchase date).
A REFUND MUST BE REQUESTED NO LATER THAN 3 DAYS AFTER THE TRIAL HAS EXPIRED."
Flutini is very good and easy to use (you need a microphone plugged into your pc). It registers every note as you play, then you look at the end result to see how you did.
This will do what you describe: http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html
Third app down, 'Auto tuner for Windows XP' (there is a Mac version as well). It is fairly big on screen and if you set the screen resolution lower it is readable from across the room so you dont have to play next to the computer. Seems to give the 'same answers' as Flutini.
Thing is , if your trying to see how well you play, in relation to a 'set standard', you need to have the right set standard. In the case of the fiddle that is not the normally used Equal temperament which guitars, pianos use as their tuning system.
The advantage of the peterson tuners,[I did recomend the PC version befor the clip on version], is that you can set your tuning system. You need to be using perfect fifths for fiddle tuning or Just intonation which the peterson offers. Also the JI scale changes depending on the Key you are playing in, so its only really a tuner like this which will accurately do the job , in fact there is nothing else on the market that will do this unless you get to serious money and strobe tuners.
Other tuners might get you close, but for the fiddle to be played wel,*close* isnt good enough.
When everything is in tune the fundamental notes are in tune but so are the strong overtones . This gives the fiddle a life of its own, its opens up and everything vibrates together.
Thanks for all the help . Knowledge is a wonderfull thing indeed, although, my mountain just got taller!!! but like the man said ..If its worth doing its worth doing well.
cheers
Paul
Well Paul, if your going to climb a mountain, then you want advice from folk who have already been there, not other climbers milling around base camp who think that the mountain is only a little hill and who haven't actually already climbed the mountain.
Its best to have advanced warning if you think the mountain is just a hill then you wont prepare in the same way as you would knowing its a snow capped peak. If you think the mountain is just a hill then once you find yourself at the top of the first ridge and see the real peaks in the mist you might well find yourself disheartened. Forewarned is for-armed.
spellbreaker -- Flutini allows you to set your own temperament, and also lets you decide how much of a margin of error you will accept. The best thing about it in my opinion is that you don't have to watch it. You just set it running and play. When you are finished, then you go back and see how you did.
sounds good gam, will check it out. Whats its most accurate setting? can it compete with peterson to 0.1 cent accuracy?
I use a Saul GHB tuner which is accurate IMO but I dont know exactly to what degree.
As we all know technology moves so rapidly that my own opinion might well be based on out of date data and The whole beauty of forums like this is that between us we can reach conclusions that alone might not be achievable. I certainly appreciate anything and anyone who can improve my knowledge and understanding.
With free open and informed debate this is possible. |Without these criterion it is not.
How accurate? precisely. The link you gave says nothing as far as I can see. Perhaps I missed it?
He wants to learn to play the fiddle. The base necessity is to be in tune . Without being in tune; perfect fifths to a high degree of accuracy he has zero chance of playing in tune. Playing in tune is a habit developed by training the ear and the fingers.
Using an inaccurate method of tuning will not produce accurate playing.
By first tuning the fiddle accurately he has a sound and solid 'base camp' upon which to base his journey. Without that camp he will find it very hard to climb his mountain. If a program does not clearly indicate its level of accuracy +/- then I would wonder why not and would be suspicious of its level of accuracy.
Your Korg tune, which model is it? google might answer my question. Anyone think that using an inaccurate tuner is going to help him play in tune?! No of course not, it will deceive him, give him a false sense of security and lead him to ignore his ears which *Will* tell him that it doesnt sound 'right' even though the machine says its fine.
The fiddle is not a solely melodic instrument, it is a Harmonic instrument as well and these harmonic relationships are crucial for playing in tune. Its about the intervals , the notes on their own have a lot more leeway than they do in harmonic relationships.
I fail to see the need for a program such as flutini, it might be useful I dont know, but its hardly essential.!! Fiddle playing is all about using your ears to hear and training your fingers to act on that hearing.
For what it's worth, the maker claims it's "The tuner is accurate to a tiny fraction of a cent except at the very bottom of its range. Below 40Hz the error can reach one cent and by the time we get down to 20Hz it may reach 2 or 3 cents maximum" The fiddle, obviously, is well above that range.
Am I guessing right that you're trying to correct your fingering?
This will work well for that, but you should try to use your ear as much as possible. Looking at this "Flutini" program, it looks like it might be just what you're looking for - depending on what you're looking for, of course!
>>you should try to use your ear as much as possible<< Absolutely, couldnt agree more.
Frantic? dont project your fantasies on me please. I am being clear, specific and accurate. Which a prerequisite for playing the fiddle well.
Offering as a suggestion a tuner that uses Equal temperament means you clearly dont have any understanding of fiddle playing. It is worse than useless. Back to the climbing mountain analogy thats like taking advice, not from someone milling around base camp, but from someone sat at home in front of a PC who hasn't even read much about climbing mountains let alone someone whos got as far as base camp. yet issues advice on how to climb the mountain?!
yes Gam, Im simply asking what that margin of error is? The temperament setting is essential, but IMO so is the margin of accuracy. So one again , how accurate is it?
sound familiar
Yeah, get a D drone in 2 or 3 octaves. any keyboard will provide this , just use a nail slipped under the overhang of the 2keys adjacent to each key.
Play your D scale with this drone, when you can play a nice scale, arpeggio playing double stops etc all notes sounding good with the drone in full harmony.
Then progressing onto a few standard D major , D mixolydian and Gmaj pipe tunes such as Anything for John Joe. there are hundreds more
The important thing IMO at this stage is to build good fundamentals of tone production and intonation.
Then in the tunes; good enunciation [timing] and rhythm. at some point when these things have been achieved I suggest looking to start incorporating ornaments. This is my opinion and practice. cheers
It sounds good ,it is good.
I'm am just pondering bogman's advice. I found being able to see a tuner from across the room handy when I had a not so good ear and a very dodgy embouchure on flute. It wast tricky when an interval sounded wrong to work out if, say, the first note was flat or the second sharp. Sometimes I started off a tune with a first note that was flatter than I could play some of the other notes and the tuner helped find the real culprit.
But on a string instrument you have easy access to in-tune notes from the open strings and they appear in the tune. So your ears have more to work on.
Yes David, as long as the fiddle is in tune that is!!! And sometimes. you have these in tune notes as comparison as well, as you play, octaves fifths etc and you have the sympathetic vibrations too which show your in tune and your overtones are combining.
But what tuner were you using and how accurate was it?!
There is nothing worse IMO than using an inaccurate tool to measure essential lines in a construction project. Its worse than useless. Everything you build up relates to these fundamental measurements.
You are training your eyes to over rule your ears on the strength of an inaccurate measurement.
Now on flute , you have a lot more leeway than fiddle because its a purely melodic instrument, you can only play one note at a time. No sympathetic harmonic vibrations etc.
So like you say, you dont have as many stable reference points.
So if you want to attain your aims in relation to accurate embouchure and therefor notes you could do worse than follow the above advice given to Paul.
The drone will give you a solid auditory reference point that is their consistently . Its also great fun. Plus you *know* that what you are doing *is* right because it sounds good. The better it sounds the better your doing. An excellent feed back mechanism that has no disadvantages.
This combined with a solid rhythmic auditory reference point [the gnome] which will tell you clearly when you feck up the rhythm. and entrain you to maintain good rhythmical form.
Now of course these are mechanical aids, tools to help you do a job. Dont let them become crutches but dont worry that they are innately crutches as some indicate, they are not. The skills gained with these aids do not go away when you stop using them.
Soundcheck, if you really believe that there are no sympathetic harmonic vibrations in a flute, perhaps you should peruse these (a small sample of the many references available) :
It's also possible in some circumstances (and more so on a Boehm flute) to produce two notes at the same time, though not of course in the same way as on a stringed instrument, or with the same choice of notes.
I've chosen to post this, rather than just add my sigh to the queue, in case anyone else finds it interesting.
No mr scientist, Im not talking about overtones, rather sympathetic vibrations. If you reread my post perhaps it will be clearer.
A sympathetic vibration is where a string that is not struck vibrates in harmony when another string is played , it vibrates sympathetically.
And clearly one sound column cant vibrate sympathetically with itself! Though other strings and objects in a room could vibrate sympathetically. A phenomena felt by all bass players who start the snare going!
If your looking to progress beyond the basics from your links I recomend A Benades 'fundamentals of musical acoustics '.
Don't worry, Spellcheck (sic); I'm not ignoring you. I'm just waiting for the rush of blood to the head occasioned by your extraordinarily patronising final sentence to subside. I don't wish to be gratuitously rude to you, so I am intending to wait until I am completely calm, which may take some time. So long, in fact,that this thread may have moved on so far that there is no point returning to this aspect of the topic.
Look mr scientist, I dont know you, you contradict a post of mine about sympathetic vibrations with links to overtone theory? ! If I then presume its because you either did not read, did not understand my post, thats patronising? I found your 'sigh' to be patronising, but I didn't go on about it. I just explained in simpler terms.
If you are actually a scientist concerned with the physics of acoustics then I look forward to an interesting discussion. Especially if you make and design conical wind instruments. Because I find it quite interesting. Particularly Uilleann pipe chanter design and specifically the E's on Narrow bore chanters .
Scientist, you'd be better ignoring this and have discussions with people who can actually play traditional music instead of nutters who can't and who have great difficulty deciphering the stuff they're desperately trying to pick up from the internet.
Surely the best solution is to avoid this digital tuning malarkey and instead spend that time learning to tune by ear. If you listen to enough Irish music, you'll get used to the way it sounds, just temperament and all, and you'll be able to tune your fiddle no bother. Doesn't that sound easier than fretting about the amount of error in any particular tuner? I think so anyway.
It would appear that we are not using the word "sympathetic" in identical ways. I am using it to include (but not be restricted to, just to be clear, I hope) harmonics (see http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/arts/music/elements/generalities/harmonic/harmonic.htm for example) whereas you may be confining its use to vibrations stimulated in physically discrete objects. Though you did say "no sympathetic harmonic vibrations", which is ambiguous.
It is also the case that the body of a flute vibrates while it is being played, but that may not be what you had in mind.
I do not feel patronised by your suggestion that I might not have read your post (that's just a false conclusion) but by your final sentence (as I did specify) which recommended reading material if I wished to progress beyond the basics, into which I read an assumption on your part that you already have an understanding well in excess of mine . I don't know you either; earlier versions of my thoughts which I did not post (and of which you are therefore of course unaware) included the information that I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and that I do sometimes think responses to your posts are a wee bit over the top. It is a fine thing to have as many interests as you do. Unfortunately, I am not as persuaded as you seem to be that you are an expert in all of them. Those who spread themselves thinly run the risk of being jacks of all trades and masters of none. I am, of course, basing my lack of persuadedness perforce on your internet postings; if I met you I might think otherwise.
I don't design or make instruments; I do occasionally repair them.
I agree SS. and my post re the drones encourages this.
@ SMS
I do not spread my interest widely , I focus on two areas. Music is my main, life long interest 35 yrs, 30 of then pretty much full time is hardly spread thin now is it?! I have not watched TV in 25yrs apart from occasional visits to family, My music is my profession and Vocation . Physics of Acoustics is merely a sub interest. I also read widely in World History. Take me out of my areas of specialisation and I am happy to admit feely my ignorance.
I dont know your understanding of the subject. I simply responded to your misunderstanding of my post. I see now where the confusion lies from your link and I see that it could be construed in the manner you suggest. but surely not if you'd read all my previous posts on this thread that explain overtones ? Whatever Im glad the misunderstanding has been cleared up and I accept that the term sympathetic harmonic vibrations could be understood in a number of ways, depending on the context .
I only suggested the standard text book on the subject because you appear to not have understood my meaning, I was assuming that you had read the thread. Had you? was it not clear enough even then?
the body of a flute vibrates while it is being played,
* Sympathetic resonance, a harmonic phenomenon wherein a body responds to external vibrations.
(Physics / General Physics) relating to vibrations occurring as a result of similar vibrations in a neighbouring body
Physics . noting or pertaining to vibrations, sounds, etc., produced by a body as the direct result of similar vibrations in a different body.
These definitions indicate to me that the vibration of the enclosing body as a result of The movement of the air column would not fall under the definition of sympathetic vibration. What do you think SMS?
I agree SS. and my post re the drones encourages this.
@ SMS
I do not spread my interest widely , I focus on two areas. Music is my main, life long interest 35 yrs, 30 of then pretty much full time is hardly spread thin now is it?! Physics of Acoustics is merely a sub interest. I also read widely in World History. I have not watched TV in 25yrs apart fro occasional visits to family, My music is my profession and Vocation . Take me out of my areas of specialisation and I am happy to admit feely my ignorance.
I dont know your understanding of the subject. I simply responded to your misunderstanding of my post. I see now where the confusion lies from your link and I see that it could be construed in the manner you suggest. but surely not if you'd read all my previous posts on this thread that explain overtones ? Whatever Im glad the misunderstanding has been cleared up and I accept that the term sympathetic harmonic vibrations could be understood in a number of ways, depending on the context .
I only suggested the standard text book on the subject because you appear to not have understood my meaning, I was assuming that you had read the thread. Had you? was it not clear enough even then?
Soundcheck/Jig/Tradpiper/Spellbreaker/Will - What is the point in so passionately arguing for the Peterson tuner. You are trying to convince someone who lives in the Carribean and, by the sounds of it, rarely gets to play with other people to buy the most expensive tuner on the market. It seems like overkill to me.
No cause, if you read the thread, Im not, I merely recomend that as this is the best tuner on the market by far, that they get it. I explain why.
I then enquired about the other program with interest, Id like to feel that I can recomend it based upon its documented qualities.Its an interesting idea.
I then recomend using a D drone instead of all the devices and use his ears to learn to play in tune. If he wants to learn the fiddle, especially where he lives know, he wants a solid effective method of tuning and learning.
We then got on to a subdiscussion about the physics of acoustics , Clarifying points of scientific detail. With a mad scientist... got that? Everything in this thread that is not part of this discussion I mentioned, is participating in a meta-thread about the activities and personalities posting in this thread. Personally I have little interest in these meta threads, but as you asked.
The physics of music, strings, Air columns is a very interesting and deep subject. Nodes, anti nodes, Modes. Im just scratching the surface. Then the ear and how the brain deals with sound ..... Intriguing.
But what is the point of spending a fortune on a tuner that is absolutely bang on if you are going to then play with a fixed tuned instrument like a box which may not be as precisely tuned? And what is the point on getting your banjo to 0.1 cent of accurate if you are just going to be playing it by yourself in the tropical sun - the same sun which will put it out of tune by at least that much as soon as you start playing it?
You are also presuming the banjo is made to such a high degree of accuracy that it will remain as accurately tuned all the way up the neck - perfect intonation.
Your argument has more holes than a block of swiss cheese.
I saw a Star Trek episode about nodes. They were these things that were like organic technology -- like wee computers that could reproduce and contained organic material. They were appearing in all the computers on the Enterprise and causing trouble on the ship. The crew had to get rid of them.
I understand just fine Will. You are like the NASA engineers arguing for spending millions designing a pen that writes in space when a pencil does the job just fine. You are arguing for a level of accuracy that is completely redundant. You are trying to persuade someone to shell out for a tuner that is so exclusive that the vast majority of professional traditional musicians do not use it themselves, that, in a session, would be pointless anyway as no one else will be tuning to that level of accuracy anyway.
You are also arguing for a tuner that, as an aside, probably costs more than your own guitar!
As it happens I use the peterson tuner for the guitar too.
Which guitar no cause ? My Bartolex 7 string? or My solid Body Classical Godin? or do you mean the Godin Electric? perhaps you mean my session beater guitar, couple of hundred I think. cheapy. The others are somewhat more than the tuner I think you will find .
And no, if you'd actually read the thread the First thing I recommended was the peterson software for his PC.
Well the accuracy of the Peterson software will depend on the quality of the mic. So in addition to the cost of the software how much for a really good mic to go with it?
<<in a session, would be pointless anyway as no one else will be tuning to that level of accuracy anyway.>>
Ah that rather depends on who your playing with in the session doesnt it no cause! . I think youll find the guys I like to session with tune very well indeed, and they dont need a tuner !
In fact I basically didnt use a tuner for about 30yrs. Tuning by ear is second nature But gigging with electric fiddle in a rock band means your sharing a stage with a noisy drummer and bass player etc , when the pressure is on I need to rely on a tuner because its literally not possible to tune by ear. An accurate tuner is essential in this situation, and of course its much more professional not to be tuning up on stage squeek squeek.
Most electronic tuners are sh*te.
I am wondering Spellcheck. Can you describe for us, in general terms, the difference in sound between two simultaneously (i.e two fiddles) bowed notes on open A strings that are exactly the same pitch and two that are 0.1 cents apart ? The same recording played along with a pitch shifted version of itself would probably be even better.
"Ah that rather depends on who your playing with in the session doesnt it no cause! . I think youll find the guys I like to session with tune very well indeed, and they dont need a tuner !"
See in real life you seem quite a nice person Will but on here you don't half talk a big pile of bilge. You are rather patronising to boot. I think you will find that the people I play with in sessions are every bit as good as the people you get to play with. Or do their All Ireland medals and so forth matter less because they are Scottish?
They also tune their fiddles, flutes, etc by ear but I can guarantee you that, no matter how good they are they do not get it to the kind of accuracy that you are waffling on about.
Anyway this is all a diversion from the original question. If Paul is still reading this thread and hasn't run for the hills then I apologise for all the sh*te that has been said on this thread. There were, as usual, a few good sugestions early on - in fact it would appear the very first reply pointed to a free computer tuner - ideal.
Everything after with sh*te about 0.1 cent and overtones and sympathetic harmonic vibrations can just be ignored. Ultimately though bogman is right. Learn to train your ear.
<< I am wondering Spellcheck. Can you describe for us, in general terms, the difference in sound between two simultaneously (i.e two fiddles) bowed notes on open A strings that are exactly the same pitch and two that are 0.1 cents apart ? The same recording played along with a pitch shifted version of itself would probably be even better.>>
?Yes David this example is 1 cent out , thats +/- 2 cents on the dial. a typical tuner does not attain this level of accuracy. +/- 5 C being normal and astoundingly +/_10c being standard! .
this means that with 2 strings , they can be a whopping 20 cents out from each other and the dial says its in tune. This is acceptable? not where I play it isn't. Its out of tune. End of story.
@no cause , its funny how different people see things. For example as far as I am concerned you haven't the faintest clue about playing fiddle. So how you can even argue your point, based on a knowledge level of zero is beyond me.
Secondly tuning by ear, contrary to your assertion is More accurate, than the Peterson , not less. once again you demonstrate your ignorance.
You guarantee based on what ? you dont play the fiddle,. your arguing from a position of total lack of knowledge and understanding.
Back to the mountain climbing analogy, once again thats like taking advice, not from someone milling around base camp, but from someone sat at home in front of a PC who hasn't even read much about climbing mountains, let alone someone whos got as far as base camp. yet issues advice on how to climb the mountain?!
As it happens as far as whether your friends are as good as My friends, well that debatable IMHO there are very very few players in the world who can match Christy Barry for example. Best him?! I think not , but its a very subjective subject and rather pointless.
You seem to know nothing about the physics either either ? overtones, nodes waveforms Harmonics Modes of Vibration etc etc. so its all sh*te to you....
If you read the thread in is entirety I have explained clearly why accurate tuning is important. Take it onboard or not.
Yes the app tuner does seem to be a good choice Paul. Its documented accuracy and variable temperaments would suggest that its within acceptable parameters.
(2) Is it even possible to play the fiddle within 0.1 cent of accuracy? It was explained to me by a fiddle player that the size and shape of your finger prevents you, even if you're a first violinist for the London Philharmonic, from playing to that minute degree of accuracy because you cannot physically put enough pressure on a tiny enough area of string to play the note. Unless you have razor blades or talons for fingers.
(3) Just because someone has climbed a mountain and hasn't died (yet) doesn't mean their judgment doesn't suck. There are plenty of idiots out there who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them to offer good advice for how to get up something. Just extending your metaphor further.
"For example as far as I am concerned you haven't the faintest clue about playing fiddle. So how you can even argue your point, based on a knowledge level of zero is beyond me. "
Pot calling the kettle black.
I may not play the fiddle but I do play music. You just move your bow over the strings to create random noise.
I have no interest in debating whether my friends are better musicians than your friends. It would be childish. You brought the subject up though. Not me.
Besides I am not arguing with you about whether the Peterson tuner is a good tuner or not. Of course it is. It may be the very best. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is whether someone who is just starting out on the fiddle and who lives somewhere where he rarely gets to play with anyone really needs to spend that level of money. As SS points out it is hard, if not impossible, to get that level of accuracy on the strings with your fingers even if you are a master. Someone just starting out would not be able to manage it. So what is the point in spending all that money getting the open strings perfectly in tune if every other note you play is out?
Arghhh - This is what happens when you try to engage someone like Will in a debate. You end up being sucked in and in the end you are not reflected in a good light yourself.
I apologise to all if I came across in any way as arrogant in that last post - particularly in the opening. It is not how I would wish to be perceived.
<in a session, as no one else will be tuninganyway.>>
Thats your post A , I merely replied that, factually, that depends on who plays in the session and that folk I play with simply will not accept poor tuning in themselves or others. Your assertion, unfounded, is that in sessions it '' would be pointless'' to tune 'to that level of accuracy .'
I whole heartedly reject that , a degree of 0.1 cent accuracy is completely normal in any decent fiddler. Secondly that were I not able to tune to that degree of accuracy I would not be welcome in the sessions I have frequented. Do you really think Jackie Daly is going to tolerate an out of tune hacker for a moment!?! I dont think so...
Dare I ask.... 0.1 cent accuracy to what? A=440? The piper sitting next to you? Some equally as arbitrary standard? Tuning is socially mediated and relative.
Al is right anyway. Even if you have your open strings in tune to that degree of accuracy (whatever it is), the rest of the notes on the fiddle wouldn't be for the reason I observed above.
"It is difficult to establish how many cents are perceptible to humans; this accuracy varies greatly from person to person. One author stated that humans can distinguish a difference in pitch of about 5-6 cents.[2] The threshold of what is perceptible, technically known as the just noticeable difference, also varies as a function of the timbre of the pitch: in one study, changes in tone quality reduced student musicians' ability to recognize as out-of-tune pitches that deviated from their appropriate values by ±12 cents.[3] It has also been established that increased tonal context enables listeners to judge pitch more accurately.[4]
.....................................
Normal adults are able to recognize pitch differences of as small as 25 cents very reliably. Adults with amusia, however, have trouble recognizing differences of less than 100 cents and sometimes have trouble with these or larger intervals.[7]"
B) "a degree of 0.1 cent accuracy is completely normal in any decent fiddler"
I find it hard to reconcile these two statements.
I'm also going out, so I shan't be able to peruse any responses for a while; I'm not just rudely ignoring them.
I was playing with some young local musicians in town some years ago. We all tuned to the concertina. After an hour a dublin guy with a bouzouki comes in, sits down and tunes his instrument to his tuner. After two sets of playing along mightily out of tune he said 'Yez are all out of tune'.
@SS If you go to the wiki article I linked, it demonstrates clearly the striking difference of 1 cent.
SMS@ your linked article is talking about identifying a note, on its own, not in relation to another set standard as your article points out . It goes on to demonstrate the audible difference .
Which goes back to the point about flute not having Sympathetic Harmonic resonances, so on its own, with no comparison point, its very hard to judge exactly how out/in you are. Which is why a drone is so helpful. you have a constant reference point.
Very good point salvador, which Ive made frequently in this thread from the very begining; learn to tune by ear.
But our OP, is no spring chicken, he us perfectly able to sort the wheat from the chaff on this thread . and because he is not getting any younger, I can assure him that by using an accurate tuner he has a solid foundation upon which to learn to play the fiddle.
There is nothing worse IMO than using an inaccurate tool to measure essential lines in a construction project. Its worse than useless. Everything you build up relates to these fundamental measurements.
You are training your eyes to over rule your ears on the strength of an inaccurate measurement. Dont.
The post as quoted by jig:
<in a session, as no one else will be tuninganyway.>>
The post as posted:
"You are trying to persuade someone to shell out for a tuner that is so exclusive that the vast majority of professional traditional musicians do not use it themselves, that, in a session, would be pointless anyway as no one else will be tuning to that level of accuracy anyway"
Why are you all arguing with this guy? You can't get anywhere with him. He doesn't care about true, he doesn't care what he makes up. I mean, if you're enjoying yourselves, great, carry on, but if you're not, the only way out is to walk away. He will continue to make stuff up as long as you continue to argue with him.
"Never wrestle with a pig - you both end up covered in muck, and the pig likes muck".
"no one else will be tuning to that level of accuracy anyway." <--- What I actually said!!
All good musicians take the time to make sure their instruments are in tune. In a large session though everyone is not going to be absolutely spot on with everyone else. They should all sound in tune though.
A box for example is a good example, when wet-tuned of an instrument that will not be bang in tune with everyone else. It is playing three different notes. It can't be.
"Do you really think Jackie Daly is going to tolerate an out of tune hacker for a moment!?!"
Well he seemed to tolerate you just fine in that session in Miltown two years ago so obviously he does...
Well no cause, I use a Peterson tuner so I can guarantee my guitar is in tune to an accuracy of 0.1 cent, unlike yourself So there was no cause for that petty barb seeya.
There are a whole bunch of ignorant people, who have zero understanding of the questions under discussion, Jon Kiparsky , yourself No cause, Bogman, some trolling from the sidelines, with nothing constructive to add to the thread whatsoever. I really have wasted enough time pandering to this nonsense. enough is enough. The OP has his question answered . If you wish to carry on with your reprehensible behaviour, nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. Enjoy.
Listen Will, I have played for sets wit h Jackie and the rest for hundreds of nights. Some really really brutal guitarists came in on various nights. There isn't a lot you can do, only if they come back make sure they don't sit anywhere near you.
I bet they too would put in their profiles 'I have backed Jackie Daly on may occasions'.
If Jackie brings a backer, Ado Morris or Paul de Grae are likely to appear. Those he plays with. The others, well, you know...
Absolutely, but does Jackie welcome them back week after week? engage them in conversation , sit and get drunk with them? compliment them on their playing? . I rest my case Malud.
Everyone on this thread, who doesnt play the fiddle you mean bogman... All those of you, sitting at a PC, who've never even read about the instrument let alone tried to tune or play it!? , The PC mountain climbers giving advice... you mean. Yes bogman ICAFF if you and the rest of your ilk disagree with me. Really, its laughable for you to suggest that half a dozen people without a clue between them , consider, that because your a majority, that your right! Laughable if it wasnt for the fact that people who know even less than you, if thats possible , might give your words more weight than they deserve.
'Absolutely, but does Jackie welcome them back week after week? engage them in conversation , sit and get drunk with them? compliment them on their playing?'
Actually, he does. That's his job if he's heading a pub session and gets paid for it. And he does it very well.
What I mean to say, people are generally nice in real life. They won't tell you to bugger off like they do on-line. if things get brutal, they switch off and finish the night, making the best of it while they can.
There's an awful lot of spin going on-line though. You know the situation, person X goes to a festival workshop and sits in with twenty other people while famous so and so fills two hours talking andd playing. On the CV appears 'I have studied traditional music under Famous So and So'.
Same for sessions, you often make the point you can sit with all sorts of people in Clare. You can. Does that always justify headlining 'I have ... with... on many occasions?' Well. Sometimes, but a lot of the time it is just a load of hot air, especially when used to support a particular point of view.
So it's prudent to both use a bit of restraint in using the 'I regularly play with..' and not to assign too much weight to it in an argument, unless there is a bit more than having to take someone's word for it.
Raymond Smullyan, the great logician and puzzle-creator, tells a story in one of his books of an organ grinder plying his trade in Vienna, when Richard Wagner walked by and pointed out that he was in fact cranking rather slower than that particular tune ought to be cranked, and he, Wagner, should know, since he had in fact composed that little tune.
The organ grinder thanked the composer profusely, and changed his tempo to a more appropriate one. The next day, Wagner walked by the same spot, and saw that now the organ grinder had a large sign posted: "Student of Richard Wagner"
(I believe that Wagner was the composer in the story, but I could be wrong - the point is the same, anyway)
Absolutely Salvador, so you can go to Christys web site and confirm my statements , No need to take my word for it.
I have not ,as it happened, used this information to support my argument, besides there is no need, there is no valid counter argument put forward as yet. I await with interest other informed opinions. Uninformed opinions I disregard in general. Why should it be otherwise.?
I posted on this forum for years without mentioning any names. Now I've put a couple up just as a taster to clarify things, I could go on .
My argument is based upon fact, physics and decades of experience. Any attempts so far to counter my position has none of these things to back them up, only a few friends who also dont actually play the fiddle.!!
Seems to me, if you make reasonable statements, then your credibility comes from the statements themselves, not citing who you've sat next to in sessions.
And if your statements are unreasonable, no amount of crowing about who you rub elbows with is going to justify them.
But then our man has a long history of such behavior here. While it may be worth a few words to counter his more egregious posts, it's silly to continue the engagement beyond that.
'Absolutely, but does Jackie welcome them back week after week? engage them in conversation , sit and get drunk with them? compliment them on their playing?'
<<Actually, he does. That's his job if he's heading a pub session and gets paid for it. And he does it very well. >>
<<There isn't a lot you can do, only if they come back make sure they don't sit anywhere near you.>>
which is it. Prof?
Anyhow there is plenty He could do ,
He merely needs to raise the matter with the landlord who will rapidly make sure the unwelcome player is firmly persuaded not to return.
Jackie IME does not tolerate fools. Perhaps your experience is different?
Will, your behavior on this thread is insulting, self-aggrandizing, and unnecessary. You do better when you stick to the high road. Think on that before posting another silly insult at someone who's very highly regarded among Clare musicians.
Will, your behavior on this thread is insulting, self-aggrandizing, and unnecessary. You do better when you stick to the high road. Think on that before posting another silly insult at someone who's very highly regarded among Clare musicians
It's funny, some known players often come to our session. We have a chap who goes round festivals blowing off who he plays with in Skye. He's not a bad man but not a good musician and our hearts sink when he arrives at the session.
LOL, he completely missed my point in his rush to be "clever."
What's sad in this case is that someone who thinks he's highly regarded among Clare musicians would stoop to insulting someone who *is* highly regarded among Clare musicians.
It's not about who you've played with. It's about getting along with them as people. And here he is insulting all these other traditional Irish musicians.
Tch, it was bothering me all day while away from a computer (working in the fresh air ) that I had asked Spellcheck a question then gone away. But he didn't answer it.
Thats another guitar of mine I haven't mentioned till now which You've never seen before No Cause, so how would you recognise it?
I haven't insulted anyone in this thread Will H , Perhaps you should back up your assertion with cut and paste. you know facts rather than fantasy. Muddying the water is it again Will.? thought you were reformed, so you proclaimed last week.
Harmon, If you have anything to contribute to the thread topic, rather than this pointless, malicious meta thread, I Might be interested in what you have to say. seeing as how you actually play ther fiddle , unlike the rest of the mob Otherwise, I dont.
Will, there are several contributors on this thread who I know are very well respected musicians and you did just say they didn't "have half a clue between them." That seems like an insult to me.
Not at all SS, its a fact, how can a fact be an insult? They dont play the fiddle, so they've no business advising on tuneing and learning how to play it, or do they?!
Jon, offers a guitar tuner in Equal temperament. ?! sigh , in amongst petty digs Ali argues that no one can tune to 0.1 c accuracy on a fiddle by ear , etc etc. need I go on?
this is 1 cent out. I dont have a link to anything more detailed. Did it not answer your question. I mean if people are arguing that +/_ 5c is acceptable tuning, what does that tell you about their argument in light of the significant and obvious difference of 1c accuracy.?
Are you saying someone who plays fiddle has a better ear and can better tell whether or not something is in tune than someone who plays something else?
You tell me SS, go tune a fiddle and learn to play a tune on it. Then come back and we can discuss the issue in light of your further education. Im not being smart , Im being serious.
OK I will ask a different question. If a note from a fiddle of frequency exactly A440 is played with an note of identical timbre 0.1 cent sharper what will be the beat frequency of the fundamental and what will the beat frequency of highest audible harmonic ? How long would an note have to be held for one cycle of that beat to pass ?
>> 1 cent is still minute it the extreme, no matter how delusional you are about your ear.
One cent is as close to nothing that it makes essentially no difference whatsoever.
If everyone could play within +5 or -5 cents off 440 how sweet sessions would be
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by bogman
Harmon it would take a devious mind to twist my statement into an insult. Of course I was not saying Peter is a fool, far from it, he said than in his , experience Jackie does tolerate unwelcome guests, so Our experience is different.
No sorry folks, Spellcheck is right to make the point about notes heard simultaneously - which is when out of tuneness matters most. I can play a note against a drone better than to 4 or 5 cents and my ear is fairly cloth like. Last time this came up I think we found out that a wet box is in that sort of range.
Paul - if you are still around - just play with that tuner app, you will soon see the sort of numbers that matter.
<<OK I will ask a different question. If a note from a fiddle of frequency exactly A440 is played with an note of identical timbre 0.1 cent sharper what will be the beat frequency of the fundamental and what will the beat frequency of highest audible harmonic ? How long would an note have to be held for one cycle of that beat to pass ?>>
Excellent question, well thought out and phrased. My answer is not
feck who cares! The aim Is perfect fifths., not perfect fifth +/- 0.1 cent, 1 cent or 10 cents. Its called being in tune. Im sure you could work it out if your so inclined. I cant be arsed , I dont have the figures in my head and Im not running around looking in books or searching google for the answer.
<< I don't know how many times I've heard student brass players say, "I used a tuner and my tuning note is perfect. I can't be out of tune." Yeah...right. :( >>
cboody
I second cboodys frustration. If you want to rely on a tuner, because your ears are not, for whatever reason, able to do it unaided then for fecks sake get a good accurate tuner. +/- 5c, +/-10 cf, are out of tune. +/- 1 cent is clearly identifiably out of tune. so clearly an accuracy greater the +/- 0.5c is required.
Ahh - I see we are no longer Facebook friends. Oh well. I suppose this thread has taken some rather nasty turns so I understand why. I am astounded though at your inability to recognise how insulting and condescending you have been on this thread.
I meant what I said. You are an affable person to be around in real life. I understand your attachment to these musicians and it is great when someone you respect compliments your playing. In fact it is great when anyone compliments your playing. It gives you a little boost. I remember you comlimenting me on my guitar playing in Ennis and I thank you for it. It was very nice of you.
I am just not sure what happens when you get on here. The normally friendly and outgoing Will of real life becomes completely batsh*t crazy. Ach well. The dangers of the internet.
"The normally friendly and outgoing Will of real life becomes completely batsh*t crazy. "
Even though I've never met the guy, I suspected and hoped this was the case--that he'd be okay to hang with in a pub over pints and tunes. Not so much in mustardia.
Play a slowish tune and hold the odd note, not an open string on fiddle, and see if you can keep every note within 1 cent. See if you can avoid never touching 5 cents out. Then imagine doing in in a session where other players have their parameters of intonation as well. Remembering the different 'just intonations' of the various instruments and the different skill levels of the musicians and the din of the bodhrans.
Oh dear,
bogyman the tuner you link is worse than useless, its a joke. Its in Equal temperament. Do you know what that means and what application it has to the fiddle? none. Yet your very free insulting me, calling me insane etc etc, yet you clearly dont have a clue. sigh, and this is the quality of the opposing argument?!!! And people here really think I, or the OP ,should take you seriously!?
Ok, I didn't have more than a quick look at the tuner, and said it was simple. In that case every time you get to a particular note hold it and see if it's with 1 cent of the same place on the tuner.
I don't care if you take me seriously. You're clearly nuts.
I've been at sessions where C****** B**** has played dozens of times. More often than not, he's tuned his flute to a Paolo Soprani accordian at the start.
If he gets within 0.1 cent doing that, he must be a better musician than any of us are giving him credit for.
Amazing Slow Downer (I know Bogman has views on that...but bear with me!) can't change tuning 0.1 cent. It does 1 cent minimum and you can't hear the difference.
Dave35, we are not talking about tuning a flute!! aagh read the thread, its been discussed plenty of times. The thread is about tuning a fiddle, not a flute. the flutes fundamental behaviour as regards intonation is governed by the skill of the maker, then embouchure and tuning slide. the Fiddles fundamental behaviour in this regard is governed by the skill of the player tuning it! then playing it.
Aye David, but are ye saying that it doesnae matter who made the flute? or how good the are at tuning the instrument?
Yes its up to the player, but the maker did most of the tuning before ye bought the flute. It matters nothin how good your embouchure is or where the tuning slide is positioned if the cork is in the wrong place , It wont ever play in tune over 2 octaves.
The art in wind instrument making is getting the instrument tuned well and playing well .
As regards the blind fiddler, sigh, yes well tuning the instrument is stage 1, playing it well is another matter altogether. if Its tuned at least you have a chance of playing it in tune. If its not in tune at first, forget it.
No, I was just trying to suggest (not explicitly, I admit) that if a player has tuned to a PS accordian they will neither know nor care whether anyone else in the session is 0.1 cent out.
On that logic, no one who doesn't play uilleann pipes is allowed to tell me how out of tune I am. As I don't play tunes with many other uilleann pipers, no one is ever allowed to tell me I am out of tune. So as long as it sounds accurate to me, I'm in tune. Win! I like this game.
Dave, I'm sure everyone else reading the thread got your gist straight away. It's not just about fiddles, they're only part the picture. The picture that's invisible to spellcheck (or whatever his latest name is)
David H, you say you test your embouchure and intonation using a tuner, what sort of tuner? I ask because you say your intonation is off, My question is in relation to what standard ? JI or ET or, let alone how accurate it is! Most tuners are marketed for ET with +/- 10 or 5 cents. so your tuner could be tellin you your 10c off, but actually your dead on....
Thank god for the latest wave of tuners that actually have acceptable error levels.
Well TSS, When I started mid 70's I never heard about such things, we tuned by ear to each other.
I bought my first dedicated tuner about 5 yrs ago. Peterson strobo flip. the new clip on has a JI scale for tuning UP chanters so if your not sure of your tuning, theyre dirt cheap now at 60£. bargain.
Aye thats it TSS, the answer all along, did ye get that paul? ye need some whisky and rabbits and yell be fine. Dinnae worry about tuning yr fiddle jist drink some whishky and it ll be grand. glad we got that sorted.
Well, listeners need to have as much whisky as the players or it doesn't help the tuning, and in the olden days they just had better ears, maybe a bit like rabbits, because they didn't have mechanical devices to dilute their senses.
I couldnae help it, once ye start on aboot whisky and Rabbits, Last time those two were together I was living in a bender , in Winter, at Raspberry layby , Appin, drinking home made poteen made by a guy called Rabbit Pete on his little still, as the eye glass filled up it would go round the circle.
The fake online Scottish accent also features on Chiff and Fipple without the need for whisky or rabbits (the whisky will be Bunny Haven I take it?).
The rest of this can be ignored by anyone who's enjoying the lighter touch which has now appeared.
[To clarify the point I made before I went out, the wikipedia article which I quoted was the one on cents linked by Spellcheck, in response to a question from David50, not any of my links. It asserts that the detection limit of the human hearing system is 5-6 cents.
"...it was concluded that no classification of human beings including practicing (sic) musicians can distinguish accurately in the 2 cents range."
From this I conclude that a person tuning a fiddle BY EAR might occasionally be within 0.1 cents of whatever arbitrary standard was being adhered to, but it would not only be a fluke, they would also be unaware that they had done so without subsequent recourse to a super duper electronic tuner. It is therefore completely unrealistic to demand that standard of accuracy as routine and bizarre to assert that tuning by ear out-performs such tuners.
There isn't a way of producing italics or bold on here, is there? I don't like shouting.]
If you have two steady tones, played clearly and one immediately following the other as on the wiki link then a decent eat can hear it. However, if you ask which one is concert nobody is going to know. Also say you play a tune at average session speed .......say this.......
|: d | eABG AGEG | ~A2 EA B/c/d ea | gedB ABGA | EGGF GABd |
eA ~A2 BAGE | ~G3A B/c/d eg | aged BG ~G2 | ABde BAA :|
Play 3 of the A's and 3 of the G's one cent (that's 1 cent, not 0.1 cent) out of tune and ask for favourite trad musician which ones they are and there is not a prayer they'll be able to tell you
.....of course your favourite trad musician is not going to be able to play all the other notes within 1 cent accuracy anyway so the exercise is hopeless. Not that they would want to anyway.
SMS you're resume and conclusions are so out of touch with the discussion I wonder again if you've actually read it? the subject is tuning the fiddle, out of curiosity do you play the fiddle?
As the discussion is not about individual notes on their own, but about intervals, which is how you tune the fiddle, taking as an example an irrelevant article hardly then bolsters your position does it?
As the wiki link clearly demonstrated the beating of 1 cent out is obvious. Perhaps you and others cant hear this difference? Anyhow its obvious to any trained musician of calibre. Im sure you must be in this group so you can clearly here the difference.
# So your post is either duplicitous, which I highly doubt, or you have no understanding of tuning a fiddle.
To play the fiddle well, it needs to be in tune with itself.
To tune the fiddle we use perfect fifths then a range of other intervals,''. We ascertain the openness , for want of a better word' where the overtones are in tune with each other from the different strings and intervals
To tune the fiddle satisfactory under these circumstances a level of accuracy of under 1 c is essential and to be in perfect tune the degree of accuracy must also logically, be perfect.
This is generally directed to the non-fiddlers heatedly posting on this fiddle thread;
As I've said before , if you dont know how to tune a fiddle, if you haven't tune a fiddle every day for many many years ,then dont be so sure you know what your talking about when we are discussing tuning a fiddle. Consider the possibility , however vague, that someone who has been tuning in fifths every day for 25yrs might jut possibly have a better grasp of the essential aspects than yourself who has clearly never done it. . does that make sense?
Talking about tuning flutes, whistles etc is completely irrelevant. to tuning a fiddle. If it makes you feel better yes with no intervals for comparison no perfect fifths, no perfect thirds and 4ths it makes little difference a small fraction of a cent. But for the fiddle this is demonstrably false as the wiki link clearly proves. Fiddle strings are tuned in relation to each other ,not alone.
A fiddle player I know who has been carefully reading this thread thinks you're talking crap and finds it ridiculous to obsess over the +/- 0.1 cent, or even +/-1 cent (I see you have amended your statements to the latter) which the ear can't even perceive.
Is that so, good for him, dont see him saying it in public though, hmm, not too confident of his position? Which part of the physics of Vibrating strings does he think is crap?
If he had a username on this forum I am sure he would tell you himself.
When we're talking about tuning an instrument, we're talking about sounds you can actually hear. You don't seem to want to accept the premise that when you get down to minute units of measurement like 0.1 cents, you won't be able to tell the difference. Fancy technology or possibly your dog probably could, but for the purposes of playing tune and having the instrument in tune as far as your perception of "in-tuneness" goes, who cares?
Can s/ he explain why 'your friend' takes this postion? What degree of in-tunenss dos he think acceptable for himself?
Does he feel that we should all consider this degree to be acceptable?
or does he feel that he can tune his fiddle as well as anyone? and that therefore he tunes as good as or better than +/- 0.1 cent?
Or does thinks I tune my fiddle better than he does because I use the Peterson which gives a documented accuracy of this degree?
I can say with certainty that no one has ever complained that my fiddle is too in tune!
Perhaps the fiddler in question would like to come out of the closet and debate in public? Im interested because this would be the first fiddler , on this thread, that I know of, to argue contrary to my position.
>>You don't seem to want to accept the premise that when you get down to minute units of measurement like 0.1 cents, you won't be able to tell the difference. <<
Well of course not TSS, because I know for a fact that its not true. I know that 0.1 c+/- is ok, not perfect but its ok for me. I know for a fact that there ae no other tuners that are acceptable to my ear, its really really simple,most tuners dont work. The intellitouch is not bad, its ok, for rough sessions,. but I wouldnt dream of relying on it because its not very accurate.
Now if you or anyone wishes to bring facts to the discussion, based on sound science that you or anyone can explain, Id be delighted to hear it. Untill that time I will rely on the textbooks and the experience I have.
Look , we are both Pipers, Ive been Piping for 15+ years I know how important tuning is. If you play your pipes, and they sound out of tune to you, but the others say its fine, how do you feel ? are you happy to play even though you know your out of tune? Im not, it bugs me , Id rather not play than play out of tune, especially in public.
Let me quote John MacLellen here.
'Never play on an out of tune instrument.'
While I was drafting a ridiculously lengthy reply, which my computer now won't let me access, so I've lost it (I don't currently have a word-processing program on here, so I can't save, cut and paste), things have moved on and I may not bother recreating it. It's one a.m. now, so I certainly won't tonight.
Just one thought - the fact that the human ear has detection limits which do not go as low as 0.1 cent _is_ based on sound (pun! Aargh!) science. Neither you, nor I in the days when I used to tune fiddles, nor anyone else human, can detect intervals that small, Spellcheck. The vibration of the string will not be at the same frequency (there's the physics for you, but again, the possibility of determining this will depend on the measuring device employed), but _you will not be able to detect that by ear_. Do you really have textbooks that claim otherwise? Perfection is elusive.
It's a shame that you seem to think anyone who disagrees with you is out of touch with the discussion. I'm reminded of the small boy at the school cadet corps parade whose proud parents said "Oh, look, everyone's out of step except our Johnny!"
There has been plenty of scientific evidence bandied this thread about what the ear can and cannot detect. This makes your arguments about being within 1 or 0.1 cents of whatever arbitrary criteria of in-tune you're using irrelevant, since no human being can detect those frequencies anyway.
So your saying that the tuner is more accurate than the human ear? based on 'sound science' Peer reviewed? And these were trained musicians with 30yrs of experience were they, or untrained school kids? how big was the sample pool?
Im interested in seeing these documents. can you link to them or where they were published. Thanks
You can cant you? your not making unfounded assertions are you? you couldn't possibly be proffering the phd thesis above as your evidence could you?!
I mean anyone can read it and see how inapplicable they are to a violinist who day in day out tunes and plays perfect fifths. To suggest that No one has or can achieve perfect fifths , a greater accuracy than 0.1c +/- based on what evidence?
Look you might be a scientist , are you a fiddler? you've not answered the question,, your post indicate to me that you are not.
However I give you the benefit of the doubt, lets see your evidence. As a fiddler who tunes to +/-0.1 cent many times a day[gut strings] I refute your contention that I cant hear this difference,.
Fortunately this is not a parade ground, and Im not obliged to stay in line. Im quite content to be out of step , Infact, I consider it a compliment to be out of step with some of the garbage that gets posted hear as advice, like use a guitar tuner for the fiddle! jeez!
"The sensation of a frequency is commonly referred to as the pitch of a sound. A high pitch sound corresponds to a high frequency sound wave and a low pitch sound corresponds to a low frequency sound wave. Amazingly, many people, especially those who have been musically trained, are capable of detecting a difference in frequency between two separate sounds that is as little as 2 Hz. When two sounds with a frequency difference of greater than 7 Hz are played simultaneously, most people are capable of detecting the presence of a complex wave pattern resulting from the interference and superposition of the two sound waves."
Now you can't really convert Hz to cents because cents aren't a unit of frequency the way hertz are. And the ratio of cents to hertz varies depending on the relative pitch of the frequencies being considered. As explained here: (http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech/2002-December/124924.html)
'A 440 is at 440.000 Htz. A# is at a frequency of 466.164. That means A# beats 26.164 Hz faster than A. There are 100 cents between A and A#. That means the difference between each beat is about 3.82 cents. G# beats at 415.305 beats per second, which is 24.95 beats less than A. There also 100 cents between G# and A. But because it is lower, there are more cents between beats. (4.01 to be exact)."
So according to these piano tuners and physics teachers, at 440 Hz, the trained, musician's ear, distinguishing down to 2 Hz is still only within 7.64 cents of perfection. To be fair, that's maybe within 3.82 cents either flat or sharp of spot on.
Still a far cry from 1 cent or 0.1 cent.
Oh. And I've played fiddle for 35 years. I tune open strings to fifths by ear. And I don't need an expensive tuner to help me (I've used a Peterson Auto Strobe 490, and I do just fine tuning by ear.)
Jig, I'd like to know what you make of the statistics that you'll see after you take the test. I won't ask you what you get on the test, since I don't want to test your honesty that much.
Hey, Jon, didn't you recommend not arguing with the guy? Still, I understand the attraction perfectly. Despite a veneer of cynicism, at heart we tend to be optimists, and have difficulty believing that some people are just completely without reason. You give logic, you get pseudo-logic in return. You offer logic, you get insults. Worse is the fact that nobody, but nobody agrees with him, and he takes this as a good sign. A misunderstood genius trying to enlighten the unwashed. Puffed up with names to drop and completely unaware that we might remember his less-than-stellar musical efforts on the now defunct soundlantern.
I feel for him, although I can't help but rising to the bait once in a while.
Yeah, it's not a big music town... not like Helena, boy howdy.
Will - based on your post, I'm thinking a cent is therefore about 1/4 Hz at 440, is that right? So a tenth of that is 1/40 hertz? Like, one beat every 40 seconds? Am I geting that right?
...now where was this thread a few months ago, when I began the process of weaning myself off my electronic tuner and was fretting over being able to get my open strings within 5 cents of the electronic standard nearly all the time, but improvement beyond that was eluding me? Sigh. (Still can't hear beats nearly as well as I can identify fifths by ear, though, but I can do the latter ok.)
TDM, if you don't own an electric guitar, get yourself to a music store and plug one into an amp. Turn the volume up just enough to get the sales clerk's attention. Then de-tune the fifth (low A) string about a 1/4 turn. Then hold it at the 5th fret, pick it, and pick the open 4th string. As you re-tune the 5th string to match the open 4th, you'll easily hear the beats going from a flutter to a longer wah-wah-wah, and then to a really long waaaaah-waaaaah-waaaah as it approaches the same pitch.
Once you hear the beats this way, it's much easier to notice them and listen for them on your fiddle.
So Will, your saying that you agree with SMS that its not possible to tune a violin to an accuracy level of 0+1/- cent by ear?, unless its a lucky strike?
That my tuner is better than your ear?! I doubt that . Trying to use internet science to back up that claim is like trying to convince someone that a bumble bee cant fly on the strength of your science. Despite the bumble bee flying past the window.
Excuse me lads have have you noticed the elephant in the room yet?
You are clearly saying that I can tune my fiddle , using my peterson tuner better than anyone in history, or in the orchestras, quartets around the world for the last several hundred years has done intentionally , by ear? Based on what evidence? I can tune my fiddle using my gadget better than you can Will by ear ? why thank you LOL
So which is it? Either you cant tune your fiddle by ear as accurately as I can with my peterson, in which case your premise is correct, or you can, in which case its not.
Now isnt that a case of arguing yourself into a hole if I ever saw one.
TDAM tuning your fiddle by fifths IS tuning by beats. Its a product of the overtone relationships.
Is this still going on ! OK. To Slightly Mad Scientist: the reason I brought up wet tuned boxes was because of the difference between distinguishing the pitches of notes heard consecutively and those heard simultaneously. Being in tune is mainly about he latter. We can't distinguish better than a few cents for consecutive notes but hear the notes together and it sounds like a multi-voice box. The page bogman links give a lot of detail on that, with numbers. A box sounds wet because of the beats.
As Will H says, 1 cent at A440 is 1 beat in four seconds (go easy on the significant figures though Will) and, as Will says, is fairly easy to hear if with notes having similar timbre and volume - that is what we hear when we tune a fretted instrument by fretting a string. A slight change in finger pressure is enough to change the pitch by a cent or two and we hear that, as Will says.
I had drunk too much last night to safely drive a computer, but can now declare that at A440 0.1 cents is one beat in 40 seconds. I am listening to two synthetic tones played simultaneously 0.1 cents apart. It slowly gets quieter and louder over many seconds. If the tone had high harmonics they would beat faster but even if we could hear the ones up near the limit of an older persons hearing it would still be a contribution to the wet-tuned box range.
So, as Will H as pointed out, the consequences of pitch difference in the order of a cent are relevant when tuning an instrument even though we won't notice errors of that scale when playing solo. I ain't much of a musician yet but had beats explained to me 45 years ago. They come up all over the place with machinery. I once sat next to an aero engineer on a twin-engined plane and he was grumbling that the engine speeds were out of tune, pointed out the beats.
Can't believe I just read all of that, where's my medal do I get one ?: (
I've a Korg tuner thats really really accurate also. Most of my tuning is done by ear though, but still, it has it's uses and it is cheap.
For finger accuracy on the fiddle I'd think (not being a fiddler myself) you just have to use the lugs. Unless the eventual plan is to have a tuner implanted in the head, but that would be sore and unnecessary.
Fortunately I can live being a few cents short of the dollar, unlike some it seems.
Yes, I have a Korg CA-30. LCD needle seems to read to a cent or so, green LED on its own is +/ 1 cent I think (hard to catch it). Tuning fork gives bang on A440. Fit-for-purpose. Cost about a tenner.
Good man David H,
As you point out synthetic pure tones dont contain the overtones that a fiddle does. When tuning the fiddle these overtones are the essential aspect . We are not tuning only the fundamental but the overtones. As you go up the overtone series the accuracy becomes more vital, first overtone of A at440 is 880 and up and up.
But your tuner?! aagh is THAT the tuner you use for your flute intonation?! agahst... seriously no wonder you have problems. It is set to Equal temperament. Its accuracy level in not advertised by Korg though its there in the spec. +/-1.5 cents. . Its a piece of sh*te to put it bluntly. yes for a guitar player it can quickly help you get into the right range but the guitar is in ET so by design its guaranteed to be out of tune everywhere! Best thing possible with guitar, especially in trad music is to get the best approximation you can, using the best tools available.
The fiddle is not a feckin guitar, you cant use a guitar tuner to tune a fiddle?!!! got that.? jeez
We're saying that while you can probably tune accurately (maybe), you can't tune to 0.1 cent. The basic premise that you can hear that numerical value of, mind you, a measurement unit that is as arbitrary as any other measurement unit, is flawed.
Yawn (not even worth a sigh). Spellbreaker, there is no point in going round the loop again. I don't think you are ever going to get it. Go away and read the first few chapters of this http://www.archive.org/stream/onsensationsofto00helmrich#page/n7/mode/2up The guy was one of the founding fathers of psychoacoustics. In the best Victorian style it was written for the intelligent man in the street so you don't need to know any acoustics or phsyiology to start with, though you will by the end. A very small amount of it has been superceded, but nothing relevant to this discussion. As I understand it you are wrong and everyone else is right.
Is that so David, how interesting... so you can use your guitar tuner to tune your fiddle? and it doesnt matter the tuner uses ET, or is inaccurate. grand. glad youve put me in my place. Jeez
and you base your assertions on what?
A440 0.1 cents is one beat in 40 seconds.
the first overtone is 880 2:1,
the third overtone is an octave and fifth 3:2 1320 HZ
then double octave 1760hz ,
then major third of the double octave 5:4 thats 2200hz
Spellbreaker, the only way I can make sense of that post is to assume that when you use a tuner you just look at what the little coloured lights are doing rather than watch the needle, or the only relevant position of the needle is bang in the middle. Its like reading the tuner dial on a radio - values that you may be interested in are in different places but you have to know where. Thats why radio stations have those jingles that tell you their frequency.
Rarely has a thread (and I told Jeremy I wasn't posting to this one - sorry, boss) lurched so crazily and repeatedly from the sublime to the ridiculous. I'm probably not allowed to say which contributor I think fits the latter bill. So on to the next step now I reckon: a discussion as to how all this agonising over superfine, super-accurate tuning chimes with playing in sessions...
It depends on your instrument steve, and the calibre of players playing and what they think is acceptable, right?
So if your all tuning to electronic tuner that have an accuracy of +/- 10 c then this is the accuracy required for your session. If your host tunes to +/-. 0.1 c and you insist that your flashing light say your in tune but the host thinks your crap and would you ever feck off with your out of tune cacophony, then your accuracy simply isnt good enough. right?
It depends on the standard of session. Some sessions are very tolerant , some are not.
However as Im sure you know this thread is not about session playing , its advice to a wannabe fiddler on the edges of known civilisation he want an aid to help him tune his fiddle.
So I recomend he doesnt bother with guitar tuners, as advised by some folk here, who also happen to liberally dose their 'advice' with invective aimed at me. Ive explained very clearly why.
I recomend he gets the most accurate tuner available, that is designed for fiddle.
Some people have a problem with that advice. , that striving for accuracy in a session, would be pointless anyway as no one else will be tuning to that level of accuracy
And of course they are welcome to that opinion, and in the sessions they frequent they could well be right.
But does that mean we should all accept that its not important to strive for tuning accuracy in playing in sessions?
Or that +/-10 cents is good tuning? or that a guitar tuner is suitable for tuning a fiddle . or that no fiddler can tune their instrument by ear as well as I can with my tuner? These propositions are frankly, IMO untenable .
But sure what do I know? as David said IHO everyone else is right and im wrong. so work away.
Is that so, how interesting. your contributions have been really helpful , thanks for your comments , Im sure Paul will be fine with a guitar tuner as you suggest. whats intonation anyhow eh? Ill tell Christy that the gigs are off because you say I cant play and you must know cos your famous and plays in a pop band. Gee Im meant to be recording for radio tonight! shock!! what were they thinking ? better cancel that too... arent I so lucky to have you to put me straight. cheers
Ok, money where the mouth is.
What radio programme so we can listen to it?
Point us to your gig list with Christy Barry.
Please answer these. You don't normally reply to questions you don'y have an answer for.
"Paul, having just read your bio, no way should you be using a tuner to help your playing. It's ears not eyes you need for intonation." - that was my contribution. Not to mention exposing your bull, with the help of all the other posters.
Funny too, you claimed to be on CB's gig page and No Cause pointed out it was only your guitar with someone else playing it. Dodged that one too. You claim the thread is about fiddle and that me and others have no right commenting yet your bragging all refers to guitar. I suppose you realize many of us have already heard your fiddle playing, which is begginerish at best. You need to grow up and wake up. Smell the coffee or you are never going to make progress.
http://www.gomeratv.com/index.php?id=215
... then click on the Christy Barry video. Yer man is off to the right and eventually the video shot pans round that way.
>> then major third of the double octave 5:4 thats 2200hz now how many seconds per beat?
Ermmm, quick math in my head (so I don't put too much credence in it) still puts the beat of that highest overtone at about 7 seconds. And I find it difficult to believe that a human could play a steady enough note on a fiddle for longer than 7 seconds to be able to hear a 7 second beat on a very quiet, high pitched overtone. But I play banjo, so what do I know?
Ahh jeez salvador cant ye take a joke?
NIce one rev, but thats not the highest overtone! far from it, they go on. and also, we are not talking about unison tuning, but perfect fifths.
So the overtones of the prime and fifths need to coincide for the tuning to be acceptable IMO.
And as we know the higher the pitch , the more essential good tuning.
The argument remains, can I tune my fiddle using the tuner than all fiddlers through past and present till they came up with this gadget. or is it possible to tune to that level of accuracy by ear?
bog you said this.>>
Putting all the rubbish aside, here's a little exercise for non pitched instrument tune players using the simple tuner Jon linked http://www.seventhstring.com/tuner/tuner.html
Play a slowish tune and hold the odd note, not an open string on fiddle, and see if you can keep every note within 1 cent. See if you can avoid never touching 5 cents out. Then imagine doing in in a session where other players have their parameters of intonation as well. Remembering the different 'just intonations' of the various instruments and the different skill levels of the musicians and the din of the bodhrans.<<
cool, thanks for the video, hadn't seen that, it was a session, not a gig had to figure out which session too.
Nice mandolin from Frank there. Lovely instrument made by himself no doubt.
That's right spell, to show the sensitivity of 1 cent. As you know the thread had moved well away from advice for the OP by that point. It had moved on to your obsession with you tuner.
Ermm [1. quick dash to spreadsheet, 2. sticks neck out] for the harmonics Hertz difference goes up in proportion to frequency and cents difference stays the same. Double the frequency and the beat period halves.
For 0.1 cent the octave is 880 and 880.05 [hah, now I see that the excess decimal places in Will's post came from a paste]which is a 20 second beat. Four octaves up is 1760 & 1760.1 - so a 10 second beat. By 14kHz which I can't hear (and nothing much to hear on a flute) we are down to a 1.25 second 'waaaaah-waaaaah-waaaah' (wow, I had to go a long way to copy that from Will's post). Still nowhere near to wet box beat frequency on the fundamental.
Hope I got that right. But yes, I agree with Reverend's main point.
Those sessions that our friend refers to that are so intolerant... I wonder how they manage to get on with those guitars that are in 12tET, especially when you start bunging capos on 'em, and those flutes and whistles that are generally sort of approximately in tune but which change a bit according to how hard you blow 'em, and those compromise-tuned reed instruments, and all that slight drifting out of tune according to ambient temperature... Then there's his implication that the "standard of session" is somehow related to this extreme fine-tuning hooey. You'd spend all night tuning and playing no tunes. A bunch of Castagnaris and Stradivariuses and a Peterson tuner do not a high-standard session make, I reckon...
If all else fails you can use a guitar tuner to find the pitch of one string and tune the rest by ear. We all know about instruments that are perfectly in tune with themselves but not with anyone else. I have a G harmonica like that.
Jon, Reverend, did you ever teach a basic programming course where almost the first exercise was a to print a Centigrade to Fahrenheit conversion table. There was always some bright spark with little sense of the practical who did it in 0.001 degree steps. Ah, punch cards and teletypes. My typing was a lot more accurate then.
So we are now very close now to the beat in the wiki link.which everyone can clearly hear. Only of course as we go up to the next set of overtones we get much closer. and closer and closer .
No david, no cut and paste there at all, any errors are entirely my own.
Still doesnt answer the question, am I right , that the fiddle can be tuned by ear , to an equal or greater degree of accuracy than 0.1c+/- ? Or that this is 'impossible based on ahem, 'science'
Is It ok to tune a fiddle to a guitar tuner? I say not.
Is it a good idea to try and learn to play the fiddle and checking your intonation, against a guitar tuner?!!!
Seemingly the majority on this thread feels so, and surely the majority must be right? especially on such a well informed web site with so many eminent respected trad musicians.
So yes here you are, I concede , Ive obviously been mistaken all these years and that its not possible to tune a fiddle by ear accurately +/-0.1 cent. Happy now? youve all won. Struck a blow for freedom of speech and majority rule. Its pointless trying to attain perfect fifths , +/-10c is good tuning and what is just intonation anyway.
grand now no need, to discuss this anymore. Paul has his answer as dictated by the majority and he can go away secure that the advice hes received by everyone except me is fully based on experience and understanding.
The OP didn't want (at least he didn't ask for) an aid to help him tune his fiddle. He explicitly asked for an online tuner which he could watch while he was playing (i.e. after he had tuned his fiddle) to "see" his notes as he produced them. He was given a few suggestions for suitable software. I hope he's found one that suits him.
I had been going to apologize for my part in prolonging this (with the pursuit of truth as the noble motivation and a few less noble ones creeping in along the way), but the night shift and early day shift have made some interesting contributions so I feel a bit less guilty. I now intend to shut up and do something more productive like prising frozen logs off my woodpile. Thank you to all those whose posts were sublime.
"Ermm [1. quick dash to spreadsheet, 2. sticks neck out] for the harmonics Hertz difference goes up in proportion to frequency and cents difference stays the same. Double the frequency and the beat period halves."
This looks right to me. So if A=440 and A#=466.mumble, Hz difference is 26.whatever. Now take it to the octave - A=880, A#=932 and change. Hertz difference doubles, but there's still 100 cents between the two. So one cent is now 52/100 Hz, inexactly (it's a log scale, so that's way off at each end, but as an approximation it'll do for the moment). That's 2 seconds per beat, which agrees with your spreadsheet.
I'm terribly slow with this sort of thing, though - I do best when I have time to sit down with a big sheet of paper and play with numbers until I see how things fit together.
(to answer your other question, I haven't taught any CS courses, I'm just a tech writer with delusions of coding, but I do spend some time on a Java help forum answering "n00b" questions, and I see a lot of what you might call "interesting" programming logic. I haven't seen that particular case, yet, but i'm sure I will)
Yes scientist, and It was nice to recieve his thanks in a PM. as he said, he could do with every little bit of help. [your welcome Paul]
Mad scientist befor you go ? weren't you going to provide citations to support your 'science'? didnt your argument rest on those proof? ah sure not to worry We all know bumble bees cant fly and that its not possible to tune the fiddle to a high degree of accuracy by ear We wus told so by a scientist so it must be true eh?
So thanks for edumacating me about tuning fiddles. much appreciated. I can flog my petersons and buy a Korg! Result.
The guy who I knew who spent 1000's on Hi Fi kit but has poor hearing particularly at mid to high frequencies didn't sell it. He just kept reading the reviews and shouting about how good it was.
Now, if there's anyone who wants to take a crack at what change in tension is required to change the pitch of a fiddle's open A string by 0.1 cent, that would be an interesting number to know.
Interesting to see the famous Jig at long last in that video clip with Christy Barry playing the spoons.People have implied that I also have dropped names here. I dispute that. I have stated that it is hard to avoid playing with great players here where Jig,the Prof and I live as almost every session has great players employed to play. Anybody can play with Jackie Daly ,Christy Barry,Siobhan Peoples,Kevin Griffin or dozens more because they are completely accessible and sharing musicians. To wear it as a badge of honour that you have joined these musicians in a session is, as the Prof says, embarrasing. Dissapointed to say ,after watching the video, that I have never before seen Jig here in County Clare. I do commend you though for p*ssing off the right people!
Somewhat in Spellbreaker's defence I have to agree that if you are going to use a tuner then it makes sense to use the most accurate tuner that you can afford. I used to really struggle to get my mandolin in tune either by ear (mine isn't all that good) or the with various tuners that I have owned. Having acquired the Peterson Strobosoft software it's now a doddle. The Stroboclip is on my Christmas list.
The claimed 0.1 cent accuracy is obviously nominal and would probably only apply for a pure, stable sound source. Real instruments aren't like that. The sound of a fiddle is full of harmonics at related and not-so-related frequencies plus bow noise. And even with open strings the pitch will vary slightly with varying bow pressure. Nevertheless I think it's possible to get within 1 cent and I reckon that's pretty well fit for any purpose.
The characteristic sound of multiple violins, whether it be a string section or massed fiddles at a session, derives from the fact that no two players are playing exactly the same pitch at any one time and these differences are constantly varying. Chorus effects on pedals and synth patches attempt to mimic this.
That's a good question, Jon. Is it even possible to adjust the string within +/- 0.1 cent of your frequency of choice? Do they tuning pegs allow for adjustments with that level of precision?
Better question... Is it possible to adjust the tuning of uilleann pipes with that degree of precision.....Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!
>> There was always some bright spark with little sense of the practical who did it in 0.001 degree steps
LOL David! But I can *feel* .001 degree fahrenheit difference, because I have decades of experience working on very scientifical thermometers (or thermo-meters, as I like to call them). If you've never worked on one of these, you're not qualified to say that it isn't possible. For chrissakes, I work in a lab with a direct descendant of Gabriel Fahrenheit himself, and do you think he would allow me to work there if I didn't have super awesome skills at detecting temperature differences???
OK, doing math like this is potentially fraught with problems, so feel free to correct me. But the difference in tension between 440Hz and 440.26Hz is going to be approximately 20 grams of tension. Figured like this:
The formula for figuring string tension is as follows:
T = (UW x (2 x L x F) ^2) / 386.4
Result is in lbs.
F = Frequency in Hz
L = Scale Length in inches - Fiddle scale length 328mm, or 12.913 inches
UW = String Unit Weight in pounds per linear inch
I couldn't find stats on the UW of a Perlon string, but if it was a (heavier) guitar string, it would be ~.00011271, so I'll use that number
440Hz T=(.00011271 x (2 x 12.913 x 440)^2) / 386.4 = 37.662266 lbs
440.26Hz T=(.00011271 x (2 x 12.913 x 440.26)^2) / 386.4 = 37.70678
So the difference is about 4/100 of a pound, or approximately 20 grams of tension.
@TSS, yes pefection pegs are an excellent and highly recomended tuning peg for fiddle. Its a simple matter to tune to +/- 0.1 c o with them.
So despite all the noise, slagging, sarcasm displayed , all the character assassination and innuendo does anyone have a sound argument in defence of your untenable position? or its all bull.?
As I suspected.
right, to confirm my original position.You can not successfully tune a fiddle with a guitar tuner.
It needs to be an accurate tuner for accurate tuning. got that boys and girls? clear enough for ye? jeez
yes Jon , it is possible to tune a set of uilleann pipes with precision. Or you want to argue that point as well?
It would be interesting to know what that change in tension is in terms of string extension and amount of rotation on a fine tuner. And I will admit that a fiddle and strobe tuner would be a good way of finding out empricially. Google can't find me anything.
fine tuners are generally crap, unless its a one piece tail unit.
Other wise, tune from the pegs like folk have been doing for centuries, much more accurate than crappy fine tuners. Or you want to argue that point?
Otherwise Perfection pegs are the way to go.
You really do have an aggressive manner in your posting Mr Spellbreaker. Unfortunately that is not something that lends itself to winning people over in a debate.
Now here is a challenge for you. Find another living, breathing human being who agrees with you in all your various theorums and hypotheses on this thread and get them to post to that effect. Bet you can't.
Note I am not saying that a Peterson tuner is not a very good tuner. I have already agreed that it is probably the very best tuner you can get. The question is just how useful that level of accuracy effectively is, and particularly for someone who doesn't play with other people with any regularly and who will have more pressing issues of intonation to worry about. Can it really be effectively argued that it is good value for money in those circumstances?
"fine tuners are generally crap, unless its a one piece tail unit."
Well get a one piece then. All the best fiddlers I know use fine tuners. Even the decent ones. I won't argue the point, all you have to do is youtube all your favourite fiddle players who ever play with anyone else in public and you'll see fine tuners on their fiddles
theorems? hypothesises? no . facts. argue with facts all you like Ali. it will get you nowhere. which of course is where you are when you start making petty derogatory digs. look at all the insults even from you no cause !
very ineffective in 'winning' debates. basically what you and others do is shout down opposition, stifle free speech , thats mob rule. you want part of that? fine. have it.
Im happy to debate reasonably with anyone, but start making personal comments, insults? thats an admission of failure.
In fact thats my first law of internet forums. the first person/group to make personal comments, however subtle and snide, instead of dealing with the argument itself , forfeits the argument.
"Well Paul, if your going to climb a mountain, then you want advice from folk who have already been there, not other climbers milling around base camp who think that the mountain is only a little hill and who haven't actually already climbed the mountain."
OK, David, I tried the math (I wrote a program to figure it out for me.)
To have that A string stretched from 37.6656 lbs of pressure to 37.7064 lbs of pressure, you would need to change the string length from 12.913 inches to 12.920 inches. So 7/100 of an inch, or 1.78 mm.
I don't really know the dimensions of a fiddle tuning peg (ignorant banjo player syndrome again), but let's say it's .3" diameter, then the circumference would be ~.94", or 23.88mm. So you would have to turn the peg about 7 percent of a turn, or about 27 degrees.
That seems like way too much to me. You turn your pegs that far, you're going to be tuning way more than .1 cent, I would think.
Where did my math go wrong? (This is why I'm a computer programmer, not a mathematician)
I agree that the numbers seem goofy - I think it's the 20 grams, that seems way too much for me.
Damned if I can spot your error, though. Maybe when I get home I'll clear off my desk and get out a pencil.
FWIW (not much, given that Jig never understands substantive posts, or at least always ignores the ones that shine light through the gaping holes in his reasoning):
I play fiddle. I use a Pusch ebony tailpiece with built-in fine tuners (recommended to me, personally, by--WHAM! [name drop]--Kevin Burke). I don't use a tuner of any kind when I play fiddle in sessions. I simply my A or D string to whatever fixed pitch instrument is in the circle (usually a very high-end, well in-tune concertina), and then tune my other strings to that open string. Been doing it this way for 35 years.
On the rare occasion I do use a tuner, I tune my A string to 440 Hz and then tune my other strings to that open string.
I don't care a whit about 1 cent or 0.1 cent. I just get the fiddle to sounding as good as I can with my ears. Because it's my *ears* that tell me where to put my fingers for the notes of the lovely tunes that I play.
Which several of us (Jig included) have already pointed out to the OP--use your ears.
However Jig and Christy Barry get along in meatspace, I shudder to think what would run through Christy's mind if he came on here and read the litany of Jig's crowing. That's truly sad.
"I dont need back up. Any one with any nouse can ascertain all my facts and explanations on this thread are both accurate and correct."
What a wonderful answer. Bravo.
The way I see it you label our comments as insults whilst your comments are facts. The point that we are all ignorant because we are not fiddlers (except of course those that are fiddlers who also disagree with you) is a "fact" whilst us calling you a sh*t musician is an insult.
On the basis of your own assessments I am afraid I have to disagree. It is actually an undisputable fact that you are rubbish as a musician. Everyone who has listened to you agrees on this point. So where is the insult in the conveying of this fact? In fact the fact that you are woeful as well as completely batty (also a fact) has direct relevance to the veracity of the advice you give on here. That therefore makes them salient facts.
Now, for the record, I don't care whether someone is a good musician or not. What difference should it make, particularly on a website where we are all far removed from each other? It is great that this music allows folk of all abilities and ages to take part - from 8 to 88. We are all on a learning curve. Where I am on that curve I wouldn't like to guess. All I know is there are some musicians who are not as good as me and others who I can scarcely imagine being as good as no matter how many years I work at it. By and large I am ok with that.
Where it does matter is that you swing in here repeatedly offering advice and opinions completely contrary to common consensus and label them as indisputable to anyone except idiots. You then attempt to establish your authority by quoting great musicians like Christy and Jackie as if that somehow means you must be right because you sat in a session with them once and they didn't punch you in the eye. You disparage anyone who disagrees with you and then refuse to answer any of their questions. You offer little that is either helpful or constructive. That is why it matters.
Well that's self delusion for you. State your "facts" and label anyone who disagrees with them as having no sense. That way, you don't have to think through all those inconvenient questions and counter arguments.
After all, this is more about being "right" than it is about possibly learning anything from other people passionate about the same music, eh?
It must be lonely to be the only rational, sensible, right person in the room....
Thank you Will (H, not E). I've never picked up a fiddle in my life yet I worked out how to tune one, and you confirmed it for me. It's amazing how some people want everything to be rocket science. They even want fun to be rocket science.
Excellent post No Cause. " I don't care whether someone is a good musician or not". Exactly, and I see things the same way generally. I don't like calling Jig, of Dick Miles for that matter, for what they are but they massively misrepresent themselves while taking a superior position and being extremely condescending to folk that can actually play. I don't hold any personal grudge to jig but I'm afraid I find charlatans hard to swallow and it brings out the worst in me. I wish it didn't.
Same dude, believe it or not. He retired from the pictures - one too many falls from the cliff. Now he thinks he's a fiddler and a piper and has this idea that he knows everything there is to know about trad music. It's a shame, the trauma to the head seems to have made him agrgessive and hard to manage.
Hugo, if that Frank Tate in that clip? He is very good mates with the OM player I play with all the time, though I've only met him a couple of times. Crickey surely not a thread of a connection between me and jig. He did look mightily weakened in that clip right enough. Mind you, backed by two guitars, a bodhran and some cooking utensils (no matter who was banging them together) who wouldn't be fecking weak? Frank, if you read this, greetings from Skye.
Oh, you mean Spellbreaker. Forgive me the confusion it is just that the name "Will Evans" that he has been being called for the last wee while is, in fact just another pseudonym - or at least the "Evans" bit.
For 440Hz, that A string would be at a tension of
27.37.665607667425 lbs
For 440.026Hz (.1 cent sharp), the string would be at a tension of
37.67005918894 lbs
To stretch the string to the .1 cent sharp tone, you would need to move it about .00076 inches, or approximately .2mm.
I don't believe that you could get that kind of resolution with friction pegs. It is possible, I suppose, that you could get that kind of resolution with fine tuners. But the question is whether you could hear it, and I think we've hashed through that answer already...
I dunno about 'weakened'. I like playing with Frank. Its been a while tho. Jig was feeling it too eh. All that gyrating. I thought only yanks did that when they played diddley. (sorry tab)
I think one of the problems with folks like Jig and Dick Miles is that they tend to assume no one else who posts on here can actually play well, that we're all a bunch of hacks. And that's mistaken.
Just because people don't crow about their accomplishments in the music doesn't mean they aren't good, even brilliant, players. In fact, it tends to run just the opposite--good players let their music speak for them, while desperate wannabe's sometimes spread their tail feathers beyond their ability to keep them standing.
That may be why, in part, NCFA's experience in person with Jig was different--Jig was face to face with someone who can contribute to the music, a shared passion.
I usually carry on here in mustardia with the assumption that the lot of you would be welcome at my local session, unless you prove otherwise (by posting a horrible sound clip or acting a right knob in the discussions).
"I usually carry on here in mustardia with the assumption that the lot of you would be welcome at my local session, unless you prove otherwise (by posting a horrible sound clip or acting a right knob in the discussions). "
Good rule. It never hurts to start by assuming the best of someone.
That video of Christy playing spoons and Jig backing on guitar sorta proves my point. Nothing flashy in Jig's backing, but he's listening, follows the tunes well, and I like that he's behind the melody, not burying it--it helps that he's playing what looks and sounds like a nylon strung guitar. I'd give him a seat at our local sesh any day. (He'd likely have to take turn with our local guitarist though, who is equally capable of backing tunes.)
Yes, he'd be welcome to play guitar at ours too, the fiddle - I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that he's better than the clip he posted, otherwise he'd struggle.
I hate when backers in general keep going after a tune tho.
Its not like there's that much to do.
Thats doesn't scream 80 billion years of experience to me. Nor does playing with another guitarist. If someone keeps playing guitar, I don't. Ever. 99% of the time it doesn't work.
His backing is ok for what it is tho. Kind of in the background, unoffensive backing. Not glue, or any other bullsh*t.
Yes, hugo, it takes a couple of years to learn to play a few tunes, but to pick them up in their hundreds, or thousands, takes somewhat longer wouldn't you agree?
That was the first time I met or played with Frank, a very quite instrument and necessarily so was the accompaniment. but in the crosses, where the session has died, because the piper and banjo player, sat next to each other could not hear each other, then my role is somewhat different. In that sort of situation, yes the only thing keeping the session going was the backer. like it or lump it. Oh and everyone in the room knew it too.
By the way the other guitarist in the clip was not playing. he doesnt play trad at all.
Anyone know what the tunes Frank was playing were? theyre familiar from somewhere.
Ah the one thats sometimes played in E, I think Ive played it a few times in sessions , there both pretty popular eh? I know Lad O'Beirne's has been on a' to do' list for quite a while but there are many tunes that attract me more so whether it will ever sink in! thanks
The squeeky reel, yes, it was written in E and I've heard it pretty squeeky in that key alright . Almost everyone plays in in D now though. Lunasa called it the Wedding Reel on one of their recordings and the name has kind of stuck, much to Donald Shaws displeasure I believe.
"In that sort of situation, yes the only thing keeping the session going was the backer. like it or lump it. Oh and everyone in the room knew it too. "
Stop the presses! I actually agree with something Spellbreaker said on this thread.
If melody players can hear each other, you don't need a guitar or zouk as "glue" but in a loud pub, sometimes it's the only thing holding the session together. If I can't hear the melody players across the table, I have to follow the rhythm of the guitar, which I usually can hear.
Doubt it, but I think it might be one of the few 'tempestuous' threads that hasn't been heavily edited and suspensions arising.... yet Theres still time.
Hi jig.
I feel bad about joining this thread late And only then to disagree or it may seem - to slag u off. That wasn't the intention. So, apologies go to urself and the op if I went a little too far.
I really only ever spent about a year or so working out chords and stuff. The rest u just pick up as u play. U develop as u session.
Unlike you though, I'm reticent to put in the amount of years as it is some kind of achievement. I don't go on about who I play with either. It by no means is a representation of my playing. In no way can I pool myself in with them. And.... I mean this in the nicest way possible, my playing would be closer to that of my musical friends than for example any and all of the recordings you provided compared to say, J Daly, but I still don't go on about it.
The only way I feel, you could keep posting here without being labelled "embarrassing" by your countymen (even though neither of you are even from Ireland, let alone Clare. Incidentally, I'd say big tab is from fecking Carlow or something) or by being constantly banned, or abused and ridiculed by the majority of this site is to ask yourself, if ur MO working for you here. It clearly is not Will. I no u see urself as the folk hero, robin hood type challenging the status quo etc. Ur not.
So as not to include myself I'n the bullies,
I have no problem discussing things WITH you I'n the future, but not if you bring into it;
A. Who you've played with
B. Your whole "if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me" rediculously flawed argument.
C. I've been playing for...... Years.
I Look forward to discussing music WITH you in the future.
(Written on a phone on a train)
Good man yr self hugo. But I hasten to point out that I only ever mentioned a few names as a result of all the insulting belittling,and ignorant comments directed at me over the years because I hold an opinion that differs to some posters here. Remember I posted here for years before finally pulling a couple of names out of the hat to make a point.
I also feel that its a valid point, and id actually find it easier to know ,who you play with, what you play, how long you've played how seriously you take the music, not to establish a 'position of authority' but to understand where you are coming from. I dont mean you personally but a general 'you'.
Does it matter? of course It does!! Look at this thread...out of all the posters here only 2 of us actually play the fiddle. The thread was about accurately tuning and playing a fiddle, something Ive spent an awful lot of time attaining over the last 17 or so years, and Ive a long way to go in climbing this particular mountain, accepted but I have thousands of hours actually doing it. So is that not relevant to the discussion? All of the most vocal opponents on this thread have not one hour experience between them? Is that totally Irrelevant? I really dont think so, do you?
Im quite happy to accept that will H has been playing fiddle much longer than me, and I certainly hope hes better at it than me after all those years ! but Im still willing to bet I can do things he cant do, just as he can do plenty I cant do. Life is like that , its not a competition, we all have our strong points and weak points and I can say that with confidence about any fiddler in the land. For a start I doubt there are many fiddlers who'd WANT to do what I do and who could blame them
I have to be frank, yet when Im frank Im accused of self aggrandisement. Its a lose lose situation.
I have no MO. This is who I am, Im not bluffing, posturing, boasting. Im merely pointing out what IMO are relevant facts.
Your opinion for example ,>>''.Your whole "if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me" rediculously flawed argument.''>>
Its your opinion, its not a fact, It doesnt matter if everyone bar me feels that way, it makes no difference at all to me, not the slightest. My opinion is that its not a flawed argument. That's how I learn , I emulate masters, and for me its been a very successful strategy and I recomend it based on my experience of doing so. A lot of experience in a lot of fields, not just fiddle, not just music. Its part of my core philosophy.
Perhaps it is flawed... Enlighten me as to why then if you can , dont shout me down, and if, after everyone has done their very best to show me why my opinion is flawed, I still maintain my position that is my right to be a stubborn SOB.
And am I not free to explain why I feel it is an excellent philosophy?
and if you continue to maintain your position, as is your right, fair enough, we both listened with an open mind, we can agree to disagree, and we can both discuss, recomend our positions to others here, freely, without attempting to control, bully, belittle ,shout down , insult , mob, swarm, denigrate the others position because, is it not clear to you all, at this stage, that those methods are not working, have not worked and will not work ? after how many years? Im still here, Im not going away. , well I will be for some months soon, but you know what Im saying
You see, I dont feel embarrassed by this thread, on the contrary, and Im quite sure there are people today who do, and rightfully.
Dont feel embarrassed on my behalf! jeez look in your own eye brother before trying to look in mine.
No hugo, I dont see myself as a Robin hood guy LOL not at all, Im just a guy who loves the music, plays the music, loves my kids and friends and all Im about is spreading that love around a bit. The world is hideous enough with out us making it worse eh?
I appreciate your post Hugo , thank you, but I cant accept your conditions. How could I respect myself if I did?
You are free to engage or not as you so choose.
Now whos round is it. ?
Yes, that's the problem folk have been having. First of all, if we all used A,B, and C here it would be a right mess, (e.g. yes, but I"VE played with ##### or I've been playing #### years - there's no way anyone would get along) and secondly, A, B and C don't really have any relevance or substance - for any of us.
Just liberally lace the above post with commas where you feel they are appropriate I freely accept that without spell check Id be well and truly fecked. Because over the last 25 yrs Ive pick up a pen only to write song lyrics and set lists, in capitals. Joined up writing that is legible has always been beyond me. it doesnt mean Im stupid, just unedumacated in the subtleties of writing English.
Im happy to be corrected where I make errors, and in return, if you need advice in my fields of specialisation, Im more than happy to help out.
" id actually find it easier to know ,who you play with, what you play, how long you've played how seriously you take the music, not to establish a 'position of authority' but to understand where you are coming from."
Well, I've never thought this before, but maybe it would be best if everyone had to post examples of their playing before posting here. Then nobody could misrepresent themselves. A sad situation indeed.
But like I said bogman, If you took a sample of my tin whistle recording and judge me on that you'd wouldn't be looking a 0.1% of what i do. same with the fiddle, bigger , 0.5 % perhaps less . Id have to fill a dozen Albums before you had much understanding. You'd need to spend weeks in my company. seriously. In fact, when I come up to Sky next I will visit your session and if you dont eat your words on this site, willingly, Ill buy the Drinks all night for the session . , and if you do then Mines a hot toddy. What do ya say? I couldn't say fairer than that now ...
Better still, bogman, if people would concentrate on what others say and whether it makes sense, rather than trying to set up some sort of pecking order based on perceived skills. If jig were able to say something sensible and relevant, and do it in a civilized fashion, I wouldn't care that his playing is crap, and if he were the genius of all instruments he evidently thinks he is, I wouldn't care much about that since he's a rude and arrogant little toad in the conversations we have here. So I don't see what it would help to have to sit through him squeaking out a tune...
Except of course jon, your the person doing exactly what you describe, while projecting your very own behaviour in your post on me , blatantly. How on earth a clever guy like you could think were all so dumb as not to read your words for what they are, I dont know. Amazing.
Do you actually read your own posts after you have typed it? did you notice you aggressively insulting me 4 times in your post. did you find any insults from me anywhere on this thread? anywhere? directed at anyone? cut and paste. lets see what the truth is, now as you seem insistent on bringing a pleasant conversation down to the language of the gutter.
Keep digging, Will. Basically you are saying (or this is how it reads), "I am such a genius and so beyond any of the rest of you that it would take weeks and weeks in my company to appreciate my genius. My artistic ingenuity goes beyond one little set of tunes that if that is all one hears, one cannot appreciate the genius that is me."
Yes, Will, here you go, your fourth post in the thread:
"Well Paul, if your going to climb a mountain, then you want advice from folk who have already been there, not other climbers milling around base camp who think that the mountain is only a little hill and who haven't actually already climbed the mountain.
Its best to have advanced warning if you think the mountain is just a hill then you wont prepare in the same way as you would knowing its a snow capped peak. If you think the mountain is just a hill then once you find yourself at the top of the first ridge and see the real peaks in the mist you might well find yourself disheartened. Forewarned is for-armed. "
And, from later on:
"In fact thats my first law of internet forums. the first person/group to make personal comments, however subtle and snide, instead of dealing with the argument itself , forfeits the argument. "
Let it be noted that yours was the first post to disparage the skills and experience of those who disagree with you.
Whether you have the balls to admit it and withdraw gracefully is up to you. I'm not holding my breath.
NCFA - You're right, I know. Don't know why I'm carrying on with this. Will stop now, and go eat and drink wine, because it's a good day for that.
In the actual world of real trad and trad musicians I've often heard is said that you're only as good as your last tune. I've always thought of that as fair enough. But this is pointless.
"Will stop now" - just realized that could be be taken as an imperative. What I meant was "I will stop now...", but Will, you can stop any time you like.
Jon, are you saying then that your advice was based on experience and understanding? that its Ok to tune the fiddle to a free guitar tuner? that you have learnt to tune and play the fiddle? that you do have skill in playing the fiddle that you do have experience tuning the fiddle? in that case Im sorry if I doubted you and said as such. its just that the very idea of using a poor guitar tuner to tune a fiddle is in my experience a very bad idea.
NoTSS Im not at all, Im saying that because I have been playing 35 yrs, starting on Bass and guitar moving to singing mandolin banjo fiddle and pipes over those decades, including various percussion. that to that judge just even one of those instruments fairly could not be accomplished in 3 minutes. and that even if you did , that it would not relate to any of the other instruments. For example as a bass player you would not be able to judge my fiddle. nothing more and Im willing to demonstrate in person, in session. is that not fair enough?
For example heres a bass sample. Now I dont expect you to think that much of it, i just plugged a bass in fecked about and thats it just now what does it tell you about my band bass playing? my pipering? singing? seriously do you think that that sample encompasses what I do. never mind I haven't picked up the bass in a year or 2.
[url=http://www.filefreak.com/files/745570_i6np0/ZOOM0003.MP3]ZOOM0003.MP3[/url]
yes bogman, this is a fiddle thread, and your giving advice on tuning and playing the fiddle, you want me to cut you quote out to remind you?
, so after you my friend, lets hear your fiddling
. I know wont be warmed up, just cold fingers , but It will have to do wont it. A challenge eh bogman... LOL. dont worry, were friends here eh? A tricky instrument the fiddle I know. Just tuning it is not half as easy as some might imagine... operative word there... imagine. so ....
and while you do that Ill go record a quick tune, take 1
My sample will also be cold fingers, no fire burning today, and Ive been in town and stuff and recording is always an unnatural environment ,Tell you what I wont even listen to it, ill just record and upload.
But no excuses eh and I wont expect any from you
I think you'll find my advice was on traditional music in general. You've given advice on virtually everything conceivable here so you can hardly use that excuse.
And by the way, you'll find good players don't use a plethera of excuses. " Haven't played for couple of years", "Cold fingers", "Bit rusty", "Tricky instrument", "Unnatural environment". Good players just play.
But to quote you again, "But no excuses eh and I wont expect any from you"
bogman this was your advice to the fiddle student >>Putting all the rubbish aside, here's a little exercise for non pitched instrument tune players using the simple tuner Jon linked http://www.seventhstring.com/tuner/tuner.html
Play a slowish tune and hold the odd note, not an open string on fiddle, and see if you can keep every note within 1 cent. See if you can avoid never touching 5 cents out. Then imagine doing in in a session where other players have their parameters of intonation as well. Remembering the different 'just intonations' of the various instruments and the different skill levels of the musicians and the din of the bodhrans.>>
do you still stand by it? on this, as you said; fiddle thread. conveniently changing the goalpost are you?
bogman , you repeatedly contradicted me on this thread, telling me how bad my advice was . and after all this you cant play the fiddle? YOU just told me it was a fiddle thread, If you dont play fiddle then WTF are you doing slagging me off and giving sh*te advice to a newbie when you dont actually, as I said, have a clue... Never one to mince words LOL and all the other posters who slag of my advice apart from Will who can actually play, Can any of you tune a fiddle? let alone play it.
So as I said, after you...
Sigh I had to listen to it, The reel is pretty terrible and the RSI in my right wrist is giving me trouble still, very stiff.and my hands were shaking a bit from adrenalin so all in all t after a good warm up I could do better and I still wouldn't want to be recording solo fiddle for a cd just yet but WTF
Right. - I'll discuss this with you as long as we answer each other questions and address each others points ok?
Right
"Good man yr self hugo. But I hasten to point out that I only ever mentioned a few names as a result of all the insulting belittling,and ignorant comments directed at me over the years because I hold an opinion that differs to some posters here. Remember I posted here for years before finally pulling a couple of names out of the hat to make a point. "
Ok - fair enough. I always thought your approach was -
A: You make a point
B: (Pick other .org member here) disagrees.
C:You reply with one of the 3 I mentioned in my other post eg -
I've played with __ So I'd take their opinion over yours.
I always thought that the "insulting belittling,and ignorant comments" were as a direct result of the many out of context connections you ascribed to yourself. (eg KB and metronome)
I for one cannot be fecked looking through those old posts to find out who was first. I'll take your word on it. If I was one of the offenders - I apologise, but also if I was - I obviously felt I had to.
"I also feel that its a valid point, and id actually find it easier to know ,who you play with, what you play, how long you've played how seriously you take the music, not to establish a 'position of authority' but to understand where you are "
OK - I play banjo and guitar mainly. I love the old stuff. I listen to that mainly. I've been playing trad about 10 years now I think. But I think that I sound like I've been playing 15 minutes. (which is another reason I don't respect or will ever again entertain your 35 year mantra.)
Regarding taking the music seriously, I hate that word in connection with music. I respect it very very much. More than I could ever put into words. But taking it seriously? No way. There are more important things in life. It's my switchoff from the serious stuff.
I play with people who are way feckin' better than you and me and most people I hear playing in general! - Not important really though.
I heard dow saying once he'd prefer to play with his mates than anyone else. I think it was in relation to a clip of Martin Hayes playing in a pub. It was the only thing that cantankerous little man has ever said that I agreed with. I they were crap, I don't think it would change the enjoyment that much for me. I really mean that. The music is honest and real, and a communication amongst good mates.
"Look at this thread...out of all the posters here only 2 of us actually play the fiddle." - NO - only 2 have stated it.
"The thread was about accurately tuning and playing a fiddle, something Ive spent an awful lot of time attaining over the last 17 or so years," _ JIG???? CAREFULLL NOW!!!!! The thread was about looking for an onscreen tuner.
"and Ive a long way to go in climbing this particular mountain, accepted but I have thousands of hours actually doing it. So is that not relevant to the discussion?"
- Maybe it is...The poster asked about a guitar though. I'm not a fiddle player, but my buddy who is tunes using his ears. Takes us a couple of minutes at the beginning of a session. - (This sounds SO MUCH more normal than some poor fella slaving over a piece of hardware in his room for 17 years - do you aggree????) Also. I've heard him play and I've heard you play.
"All of the most vocal opponents on this thread have not one hour experience between them? Is that totally Irrelevant? I really dont think so, do you? " - You do this all the time. This is an lie. You are lying here. You can' t expect to be taken seriously if you lie. Maybe I've misunderstood you. You do this quite often. Post something like this in what starts out to be a reasonable thread. What do you mean here? Please elaborate.
"Im quite happy to accept that will H has been playing fiddle much longer than me, and I certainly hope hes better at it than me after all those years ! but Im still willing to bet I can do things he cant do, just as he can do plenty I cant do. Life is like that , its not a competition, we all have our strong points and weak points and I can say that with confidence about any fiddler in the land. For a start I doubt there are many fiddlers who'd WANT to do what I do and who could blame them "
- Same as me on banjo - nothing to do with what I was referring to though.
"I have to be frank, yet when Im frank Im accused of self aggrandisement. " - BUT JIG - You posted samples of your playing though. Many times. So people are thinking. Who the feck does this lad think he is? I ask you now. - do they have that right?
"Its a lose lose situation." - Only for you man - I ask you again like the last post - is it* working??
(* your posting style and the way you 'discuss' these topics. I honestly am trying to help. It's only a lose, lose situation for you. Ask anyone else on the website.) Perhaps - PERHAPS you could think about it from the other side.
"I have no MO. This is who I am, Im not bluffing, posturing, boasting. Im merely pointing out what IMO are relevant facts."
Ok - I don't think you are bluffing (I did before I saw that video of you playing) posturing, boasting. Im merely pointing out what IMO are relevant facts!)
Jig - that sentence has nothing to do with what I understood as your modus operandi. I think your MO from your days as tradpiper was almost identical to that of Big tab. (EG)
State an opinion (usually a negative one).
People disagree
Well, I'm from Clare (you're not) so what the feck would you know./ I've been playing for .....etc.
I can't remember the posts exactly but I know there was something like that.
I think your MO has changed now to a more - I stand against the bullies of thesession.org therefore I'll just disagree with whatever I can.
"Your opinion for example ,>>''.Your whole "if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me" rediculously flawed argument.''>>
Its your opinion, its not a fact, It doesnt matter if everyone bar me feels that way, it makes no difference at all to me, not the slightest. My opinion is that its not a flawed argument. That's how I learn , I emulate masters, and for me its been a very successful strategy and I recomend it based on my experience of doing so. A lot of experience in a lot of fields, not just fiddle, not just music. Its part of my core philosophy. "
OK - but again man, I've listened to your tracks.
Maybe they work for others, but from the sound of your playing and D*** M***** I don't think I'd like to try a metronome. Also - Kevin Burke shares his opinion with you. Great. But you don't sound like him, so your argument of pairing yourself with him is - ridiculous.
OK - here's an example. I like taking photos. I don't use a flash. A famous photographer doesn't either. I'm sh*t. He's not. I don't lump myself in with him. You do that Jig. That's the issue. Do you accept this?
"Perhaps it is flawed... Enlighten me as to why then if you can , dont shout me down, and if, after everyone has done their very best to show me why my opinion is flawed, I still maintain my position that is my right to be a stubborn SOB."
Again - is this working for you? Again. No. People don't like stubborn people. They are feckin annoying. Do you accept this?
"And am I not free to explain why I feel it is an excellent philosophy? and if you continue to maintain your position, as is your right, fair enough, we both listened with an open mind, " -
Jesus man.This is the problem. You don't.
" is it not clear to you all, at this stage, that those methods are not working, have not worked and will not work ? after how many years? Im still here, Im not going away. , well I will be for some months soon, but you know what Im saying"
Will, that's fine. But why do you insist on going down the me and them route? Its not working for you either. I remember when I was younger I got in a fight with all of the lads in my class. I ran home to my ma and I said "They're all dicks" She said - "if that happens in life, usually, you are the one who is at fault." She was right too. Never had that experience since. I haven't let it ever happen again.
"You see, I dont feel embarrassed by this thread," - I know you don't man - I KNOW.
" Dont feel embarrassed on my behalf! jeez look in your own eye brother before trying to look in mine. "
You are forcing people to look in yours. Everytime you say who you've played with, how much experience you have and how you know as much as Kevin Burke (that last one was a joke )
"No hugo, I dont see myself as a Robin hood guy LOL not at all, Im just a guy who loves the music, plays the music, loves my kids and friends and all Im about is spreading that love around a bit. The world is hideous enough with out us making it worse eh? "
Good for you. This is why I've bothered with posting here directly to you. I'm not interested in the bullies either. But you are an irritating poster. Really annoying. Did you know this? I'm not saying I don't like you or anything. Just not the way you argue a post. If we are discussing something like this in a pub, a conversation would take 2 minutes. Back to tune up - another 2 minutes - for me. (17 years for you ) back to playing!
"I appreciate your post Hugo , thank you, but I cant accept your conditions. How could I respect myself if I did?
You are free to engage or not as you so choose. "
I will of course Will. I don't think its as serious as questioning who you are as a person or anything, or respecting yourself. I think its more important to re read what I've said about those points that is pointless in presenting on this site.
>> The poster asked about a guitar though. >>
No hugo, its not a guitar thread , its a fiddle thread about tuning the fiddle. read the OP.
couldn't you have broken that down into smaller chunks? it was pretty indigestible.
Bogman?! <<Lies and you know it. That was regarding the pitch argument, nothing to do with the OP. Now I really must go....>> sigh
Pitch argument?! you said fiddle! YOU said it in your post. not Me. jeez some people , as soon as they find they've bitten off more than they can chew they start lashing out with verbal abuse and accusations?! do you think we cant read?
Play a slowish tune and hold the odd note, not an open string on* fiddle*, and see if you can keep every note within 1 cent. See if you can avoid never touching 5 cents out. Then imagine doing in in a session where other players have their parameters of intonation as well. Remembering the different 'just intonations' of the various instruments and the different skill levels of the musicians and the din of the bodhrans.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
So I repeat myself, you are wasting your time if you try this, its worse than useless. It is a guitar tuner, in Equal temperament. A fiddle can not be tuned let alone played with good intonation using that free inaccurate program. got that?
Is there any fiddler here who thinks anyone could tune a fiddle and get good intonation using that program?
Erm, jig, what bogman is suggesting you try is to simply play *one fingered note* into that tuner and watch how much the pitch wanders around.
This isn't about tuning the fiddle, or even playing a scale in tune. Just play one single note and watch the pitch skitter around.
It's the nature of a bow on a string, and a finger on a fretless string: the pitch won't be a single steady tone. Instead it will waver all over the place.
Really, most trad instruments are this way--we play within a range of "good" intonation. Not perfectly spot on. Fiddle and flute are infamous for this. And it sounds fine, brilliant even, because our ears and aural brain centers aren't that finely calibrated.
Most fiddlers I know can add and substract by 2. Assuming you are starting on the A string you want that tuner to read +2 cents for E, -2 for D and -4 for G. (if you are being silly you could try for -3.9 on the G)
Note: don't do that, do what Steve S said way up the thread.
What temperature do you usually play at ?
I have just been comparing that tuner and the one I suggested with a tuning fork. They were 0.1cents difference. What did the tuning fork give ? Well it started at 439.7 when I picked it up, but by the time I got bored it was down to 439.5. That made me interested again so I held in my hand for a few seconds and got it down to 439.4
Tuning forks are renowned for inaccuracy, as you just found out. I mean if you want to play out of tune, go ahead , If its ok for you and your session to all be in tune to different things thats your right, but to suggest to a beginner who *Specifically* asked about help with his intonation, that its good advice to tune to a poor quality tuner in the wrong system of intonation is not helpful.
If anyone had said to him that he could start adding and subtracting numbers , and where he might find those numbers and why etc then Ok, its a pretty crap method IMO but it could maybe work. Only we're at the bottom of a four hundred post discussion and no one did, only now you say this to attempt to justify your self, |David and your patronising to boot ;yawn
David you were complaining you couldn't get within 10c. but you think you know what's best for Paul? You cant tune or play a fiddle? so what makes you feel everyone bar me so right and Im so wrong as you stated earlier .
When you openly say you cant tune Your OWN Instrument yet your giving advice, bad advice [ by criticising good well informed accurate technically explained advice] to someone else?! and you wish to justify that?!
Will H, I know most trad instruments are like that, and if thats what you like great, go for it. But Im sure you wouldn't be teaching your students to tune up their fiddle with that guitar software would you? Your a proud man, your proud of your accomplishments and only rightly. So all Im saying is that if someone comes to us here to ask advice, that we give them good accurate well informed advice and dont encourage bad advice merely because of a personal grudge.
Im not pointing the finger at you , theres quite a few who muddied the water and tried to deceive, to pretend, to posture , My advice on this thread to a learner fiddle player is sound and clearly explained .
Its not just the posters here, theres plenty lurking. This argument in its various strands has been going on a while now and a lot of us here are very bored of it, though of course as we all know excitement, a bit of a fight some action etc brings a crowd.
If anyone doesnt yet understand then reread the thread, do some research. buy some books and read them .
For example Will you might well have Bart Hopkins book; musical instrument design. Brilliant book, full of great simple projects perfect for classroom and with detailed but not overbearing explanations. If you want to get seriously into the subject then Get Arthur Benades book Fundamentals of musical acoustics.
Im happy to debate and learn but please let it be informed debate not rabble rousing and invective. Is this site really the place for it? Is this what we want visitors to thesession.org to find? Do we really a, as a community want to be the laughing stock of serious traditional musicians ?
Despite all our grievances, disagreements etc , all the words said in haste and later regretted , today is a new day, we are not obliged to continue bickering amongst ourselves, we are all free to consider our actions in the light of how we wish to represent ourselves and the greater community. How we wish to relate to each other.
I dont want conflict Im a peaceful guy, I dont bear grudges for they weigh down the soul.
I genuinely hope that if a majority of us feel the same way we can restrain our worse excesses, stand up for one another, not turn blind eye to bullying and abuse, not tolerate in our presance bullying and abuse. and maintain some form of civilised decorum on this, a site which in which everyone of us must self police. For no one else will do it for us. there is no Guardee going to jump in here at the last minute. Jeremy has his hands full without feeling obliged to clear up after our party or pitched battles!
Let us all be responsible for our own actions and not blame them on a mythical 'other'' there is no 'other' we are all one. Look in the mirror and who do you see?
Will H
When you've tuned your own A to the A you're hearing in the session and then you've tuned your other strings to each other and you're perfectly in tune with yourself, do you ever notice a discrepancy between your open D, G and E strings with other instruments that are tuned in equal temperament? ie, a piano, piano accordion say, or a guitar, bouzouki/mandola/cittern that someone has tuned with a tuner. Do you ever find that you play in tune just fine on the A string and with other fingered notes on the other strings and then when you play an open string it just isn't quite right? Ever tempted to sharpen your D's and G's a bit so they will fit?
er no taocat, but I've lurked enough on here to wonder who else you think I might be. It's an honest question actually, and I don't think it's been covered, although I do admit I skimmed through some of the more vitriolic bits so I might have missed something.
Of course twisty, I play with a piper, I play with a banjo player, flute, whistle etc etc I adjust my intonation to match, but our unisons and fiths are normally dead on. I cant be arsed playing fiddle with the box. I then play an instrument closer to ET, like banjo, or guitar .. Fiddle is my fifths instrument. not my first!
I play with a pianist but he tunes his electric to JI, in the correct key. this is the 21st C dude., Besides its only since 1917 that any piano was actually tuned to ET. befor that they just thought they were tuning ET.
I say to any fiddler, *especially* beginers who will be playing alone, get a peterson for 60squid its the cheapest investment you could make bar good stings which are about the same price. Padraig O'Keefes bow was not so hot, any old fiddle with strings will do at a push, IF its in tune.
Tuning the fiddle is not something that anyone can do accurately immediately, It takes time to train the ear up. Anyone who knows anything about the brain and its ear knows that. So as to have a chance for someone like paul to actually make music on a fiddle on his own out there the best advice I feel I could give him is get an accurate fiddle tuner. Tune your ears and your fiddle will follow.... if you see what I mean.
Twisty, as you said, I tune either my A string or D string to a fixed pitch instrument, and then tune the other open strings to fifths by ear. I'd rather have my fiddle as well in tune as I can get it, regardless of whether it's off a skooch to some equal tempered instrument. A fiddle just sounds better when it's in tune to itself.
So no, I don't adjust my open strings to better match another instrument. For sessions, it all blends in anyway.
But I *do* pay attention to my fingered intonation to match other instruments, especially if just two or three of us are playing. It's common practice for fiddlers to tweak their fingers to match a keyboard, free reed, or fretted instrument, since those instruments can't do anything to better match the fiddle. I also do this to blend better with a flute--little micro adjustments to match pitch. The longer I play with any particular fluter, the easier it is to know where their intonation lands on certain notes, and in certain keys/modes. Of course, a good fiddler makes those micro adjustments a fair amount, even when playing solo, to account for changing keys/modes throughout a set. (E.g., the first finger, 2nd string "B" note is different in G major than it is in E major.)
The really important thing in all this--and contrary to what I consider to be bad advice from Spellbreaker--is to use a reliable tuning source *ONLY* for one string when tuning the fiddle, and then tune the other strings in fifths, from that initial string. *Don't* use *any* sort of tuner to tune the other strings. Instead, just use your ear. Learn to hear the beats--the flutter and wahs of strings not quite in tune to one another. If you can't do this yet, find a good fiddler to show you what to listen for and how to fine-tune your open strings to fifths. I teach all of my students to tune this way, and regardless of age or ability, they all pick it up within a few weeks and are tuning accurately and consistently within a month or two. It's not difficult, and you don't need a pricey tuner (or even a cheap tuner) to do it.
A few people that came to me for lessons after learning elsewhere were trying to use various tuners in the way the OP seems aimed at. I discouraged it, and finally told one guy to just put the tuner away (it was calibrated to just intonation) and use his ears. In a week, he went from playing out of tune most of the time, to playing completely in tune all the time. He now uses that tuner to get his open A, and nothing else. And he sounds great.
Hope this helps, despite the tsunami of ranting off-the-wall and off-the-mark "advice" from the other WIll.
Twisty, I also play guitar, mandolin, and banjo. A fuller answer to your question has to include the fact that even the highest caliber fretted instruments have intonation issues--certain notes that will not blend as well as others, *because* they're set up for equal temperament. So most of us who play fretted instruments end up tweaking our tuning to suit the situation (what other instruments are we playing with, what keys/modes will likely predominate, etc.).
5-string banjo, in open G tuning, is a well-known case. On even the best banjos, with compensated bridges and carefully laid frets, you face a choice--tune the B string to match the G, or tune the B string to match the D. As close as it might get, you can't have the B perfectly in tune with both the G and D strings at the same time.
In short, it's not the fiddler who needs to tweak his tuning, but the equal tempered instruments. It's not at all unusual for guitarists in standard tuning to leave their B string a tad flat for playing in G/Em, and to kick it up a hair if they know they're going into A and E.
Thanks for your reply Mr Harmon
I just find myself in conflict sometimes playing a perfectly tuned instrument, tuned in fifths to itself. It's easy, as you say to adjust fingered notes to differences but then it can be almost worse to go to an open G say, because my G, tuned perfectly to my D which is tuned perfectly to my A is so flat compared to the equally tuned instruments I'm playing with. Even the open D played against a DADGAD guitarist tuned with a tuner can really beat to my ear, which causes a bit of a dilemna for me. Be in tune with myself or be in tune with other instruments? Compromise somehow, and tune to slightly narrower fifths? Do you ever hear what I'm talking about?
Cross posted, I suspect. See if my P.S. above answers your question.
And yes, I do hear beats, especially with guitars, and it bothers me too. Which is one reason I enjoy sessions without guitars. I'm lucky that our local guitar player takes all this into account, tweaks her tuning, and often plays only partial chords to lessen the problem.
Hang on will, through out this thread Ive said to use his ears. from my second post. however he asked, so get your accusations right dude. Dont want to play nice,your still playing power trips? or was it your genuine mistake? I hope so.
Jig, yes, I know you've said to use the ears, but you repeatedly insist the peterson tuner is the way to go, all the way down to your previous post.
It's not. We can get a reliable A 440 from any decent tuner, many of them 1/10 the price of the peterson. And we don't need a tuner at all for a fiddle at sessions--just take the A of the fixed pitch instrument, or that one A from any instrument and tune your strings to yourself. Learning to do this without a tuner is more straightforward and efficient than dinking with a tuner. If the OP "needs" a source for an A440, he obviously has access to a computer and can get that A tone from any number of free online sources.
I'm sorry Jig, but you waste a lot of time and energy projecting your own significant problems onto other people. It's not fun and I wish you'd stop, but given your years at it here, I won't be holding my breath.
Oh well then Mr. H. It's their fault, haha. I'm glad you said you've heard it too, because I tell you, it is bothersome to me. I do find myself sneaking my D and G up a bit at times to make things fit a bit better, especially in tunes that use a lot of open strings, and then I'm tuning back to perfect until I can't handle the discrepancy anymore and then I'm sneaking those lower strings up a bit again.
I just wondered how other fiddlers handled that conundrum.
Twisty, one more thing to consider is that the most recent research continues to show that our sense of pitch is subjective--that is, each of us likely hears intonation slightly differently than the next person. Most of the time, it's a small enough difference to not matter much. But age, exposure to high volumes, and a scary variety of diseases and disorders can really mess with our ability to discern pitch. I can't tell you how many times I've had another fiddler ask me for an A, only to listen to them miss the mark entirely when tuning to me, and then happily start playing as though they're in tune. In that case, one of us is certainly hearing something different than the other.
Lots of interesting reading on this in Oliver Sack's book "Musicophilia."
Someone quite a while ago said they thought this thread was dead, and I have come up with a theory. I think it really is dead, and is merely shambling along, in a hideous approximation of life. Some of us, in good faith, have continued posting, and treating it like it is alive, but we are only endangering our sanity by doing so. In the movies, the only way to really deal with zombies is by running as fast as you can in the other direction, which I will do now.
Exit, stage left...
Well the thread is at least brain dead but still seems to have a pulse.
Fiddlers, barsetts for the best part especially when it comes to tuning and ears.
My girl friend is a fairly accomplished fiddler, if she dose say so herself (I'd have to agree mind, but don't tell her I said so; ) She has a stunning ear for the slightest wobble between notes and isn't afraid to announce that x or y is out of tune. Often she'll point out that my banjo is slightly out before I notice. We're not talking much but the merest baw hair.
I usually defer to her judgment although she isn't right 100% of the time, sometimes she gets it wrong if only occasionally and usually when she's had a few. Famously 6 months back or so after a few bottles of wine we headed out to her local session where she announced that my guitar was out; by a flipin semi tone :confused:, I get the tuner out (I'd just tuned to her in the house) bang on ish. It wasn't until a little later when her pals came in and we had to retuned that she conceded the point and then only grudgingly. For which I get the blame (being the accompanist on that occasion I just took it on the chin as befits an accompanist), when she challenged me as to why I hadn't been more forceful regarding the point, all I could say was that she was usually right and so I gave her the benefit of the doubt, I didn't say: to avoid a reenactment of the gunfight at the not so OK coral (strong willed and stubborn, thats fiddlers IME).
I'm sure she could well better + or - 5 cents of accuracy but then she dose look after her ears and her accuracy is there for anyone to hear, and with her mega fiddle bow and good technique she can be heard at some distance. But having said that she is an exception not the rule. I've had a couple of long and longish musical relationships with fiddles and whilst they undoubtedly have good ears they don't seem as pedantic as her indoors, but still quite stroppy where tuning is concerned mind.
So I'd say, grudgingly; fiddlers do have a more acutely developed sense of tune than those of us playing fretted or fixed tuned instruments. Nuf said.
Spellbreaker (wicked hacker still owes me a pint :d ) we have one thing in common, at least, but I'll let you work that out for yourself? Also they say there are 5º of separation and until this thread I'd have quite happily pointed out that between us there are 2 people, but you gave something away in this thread which now leads me to believe there is now only 1, see if you can figure out the who and the where ; ). So, and I could be wrong, this person I think we have in common is someone who I respect and really quite like despite us being very different sorts of people. For the love of his friendship and the one thing you and I hold in common, I'd tender the following observation.
You have to learn when to let sleeping dogs lie.
I think you need to apologise to Hugo, he's forgiven (with caveats, but acceptance of these is how relationships evolve for the better) and held out his hand to you, you want to accept but to also continue in the same vein, you can't have it both ways! Which is what I infer from your comments above, to my mind those comments effectively reject his amnesty, which I took to be very heart felt. Something tells me you need to worry less about intertweb chit chat and focus on your wider circle.
Words statements etc are for ever being taken out of context, sometimes accidently sometimes purposely, don't chase them, don't give those that would lead you a merry dance or those who mistake your words and intent, the opportunity. You'll only end up chasing your tail, as you've been doing above. This freekin tuner of your ffs, I seem to remember the lydian mode thread epic (where I claimed a pint) also featured this dammed tuner at some point.
Lie sleeping dogs.
FWIW, I had a great tune to myself last night, the banjo shack was truly rockin. I surprised myself and feel great today as a result. I also took the opportunity to test my tuning capabilities with my iPhone's tuner as I don't have a tuner with me at the moment. The iPhone tuners is crap but I was within + - a few cents of bang on ish, I didn't adjust my tuning as it sounded good to me and I think thats the point, don't think even the girlfriend would have pulled me up last night.
Iphone tuner is crap? you dont have the peterson App? useless for fiddle but fine for ET LOL
Exactly, if it sounds good, and thats the point. If this guy, Paul , who has no access to a teacher, wants to play the fiddle he has an awful lot to contend with, he doesn't want to take 15yrs. he doesn't need to go through many of the Mistakes I have. He needs to train his ear to hear.
But as you say, fiddlers develop their ear over many years. he expressed , to me, the concern that hes getting no younger, and none of us are. If there's any short cut Ive found, its using a good tuner.
Its not essential, I played most of my life without one and I can tune by ear better than I can with the Peterson, but its good enough, it makes life much much easier in noisy sessions ,a clip on tuner. As we all know.
Im quite happy to let sleeping dogs lie Solid, but thats not the case is it. they come along and' kick' this sleeping dog. spread lies , malicious rumours, innuendo and I dont think anyone should have to put up with that, keep your 'hands' to yourself lads.
I had a lot of arguments with one fiddler on this board. out of the 3 ive heard briefly, hes the only one, by far, who had any guts to his playing IMO . Since then I met him, we sat for a few hours in session, hes a nice friendly guy and Id like to feel its the start of a long friendship. I respect his playing and ability. Doesnt mean we will always agree, doesnt mean we wont argue.
solid, I thank you for your advice I will bear your words in mind. But we are who we are, yes we can change, but that change has to be heartfelt. Im not going to pretend, on an internet board, to be who Im not. I dont need to .
Im not going to defer in a disagreement to someone on the strength of their 'trump' ''Ive been playing longer than you have'', Maybe they have, maybe not. on the strength of their ''Im better than you',' maybe they are maybe there not. Further more I dont expect anyone to do so either. Fair enough?
Let us discuss and argue on the strengths and merit of our individual argument. Not on the strength of numbers!!! because majority mean SFA on this board.
Now if I were on a serious Pipers forum, with a large group Identifiable professional pipers I would consider that the consensus is probably correct. But this forum is not that. EG You can count the number of Pipers active here on one hand !!.
If posters here feel that the only way they can maintain their supposed position of Authority, of superiority, is by insults, innuendo, blatant mis representation , telling me i 'have serious problem' blah blah blah what does that tell you about the strength of their argument?
Yes, If it sound good,it is good. But for a beginning fiddler, with no previous experience, thousand of miles from the nearest session,no teacher, how many years do you think it will take him to sound good? to just tune his fiddle well?
My advice is simple, get the best[peterson] tuner available. Tune your fiddle.
learn to do it with this accuracy by ear as you put time in.
Learn to play in harmony with a D drone .Learn to pay by ear.
Enjoy your music and your life, this is not a trial run. This is the real thing If your reading this you are probably one of the luckiest people ever born. , make the best of your time here on Earth. It wont last forever.
You see, Will, the problem isn't that you have an opinion that lots of people here disagree with. The main problem is the arsey, confrontational way in which you argue that opinion. My crack about running for Congress was directed at your accusations of lying, misrepresentation, innuendo, and so on. That's standard US election modus operandi -- accuse anyone who disagrees with you of lying, misrepresentation, bullying and so on (oh, yeah, and of being a Communist).
You need to express yourself online in a way that doesn't make you sound like a penis, which I figure you're probably not in "real life." Screaming that you're being bullied and that everyone is lying doesn't achieve that. Nor does stubbornly insisting that you know the one and only way to learn and play trad music and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and an idiot.
I've been riding horses for about 20 years and I have found that arrogant tw*ts who think they know everything there is to know about horses and are always right are endemic. And annoying. I wish I had a pound for every one I met. I'd be able to buy me some regulators.
no TSS, it was dead till you stuck your oar in to stir it up a bit
So youve been riding horses 2o yrs how would you fare then if you gave some helpful advice and 20 folk who've never ridden a horse in their lives came in and told you what crap advice you were giving? Then told the guy that he should sit facing the tail and put his hands in the stirrups then told you, you cant even ride! and then at the end of the day this mass bunch of ignorance start going on to you about your confrontational manner, your accusations that these guys cant ride, that when you said riding facing the tail is bad advice, they give out to you!?and theres loads of them all insulting you accusing you of being a liar, congratulating each other about how clever they were, like a bunch of laughing hyenas and jackles snapping hoping to get a bite in. And how the fact that you been riding 20yrs is irrelevant and slagging you for even mentioning it..... and telling you you wouldn't know the arse end of a horse if you saw it. All the while justifying their atrocious advice despite you being able to clearly show useing your lifetime yrs of study that theyre talking out of their holes . Then it becomes a discussion amongst the horde about you and your 'problems' and |Blah blah blah...
Now your pointing the finger at me! LOL give it a break lassy.
Yes, jig, that's so. I've never seen Emily on a horse (or off a horse for that matter) but if her horsemanship were as bad as your fiddling in those famous clips, she'd have broken her neck a long time ago.
It's not really such a good analogy. No offense, Will. I just read it as tit for tat. I've missed most of this discussion; mainly because I gather it probably has only a few well thought out comments (regarding intonation & tuning) which were already made on another thread in the past.
Of course, by not reading most of the comments, it may well be a goldmine & I'll never know.
no ben, no tit 4 tat, thats foolish , an eye for an eye and everyone is blind.
And if thats how you do live your life as many do sadly, poor people. , what makes them think they still have eyes to see.... blinded by their own bitterness, twisted by hate frustration and anger?! Even people who can be quite clever in some regards don't realise its a stupid self defeating strategy and they turn their own hate on them selves and family. Doubt they have any real friends, all left long ago eh? Sad. We all need to make a choice here, I think this quote from the Dalai Lama is pretty cool;
>>The compassionate mind is very important. Fear, anger, jealousy are based on a self-centered attitude. By developing a sense of caring for others' well-being your heart automatically opens and that brings transparency, straightforwardness and honesty, which leads to friendship. We are social animals, and one individual's survival relies entirely on the rest of the community.<<
and of course the communities survival rests on the decisions of its members. Just like mankind is eating our own support system, destroying the trees that create the air we breath. Its individual decisions to 'tow the line' keep their mouth shut for fear, just fear ..
Its all individual decisions and our individual decisions collectively add up to the communities decisions.
It is probably slightly ironic in this context that the Dutch word 'spelbreker' (pronounced Spellbreaker) is a person who ruins a plan or an event by his contribution.
Wow, he's off on a tear now. Got the Dalai Lama in there and everything. Is that something he said while you were playing tunes with him back in Clare, Jig?
It's the 20 folk (or mass bunch of ignorance) who never rode before saying sit facing the tail, etc. to the person w/20 years of riding. It's one of the problems in that post. It's a rambly, stream of consciousness rant.
A bit of a persecution complex on display as well, I think.
Reminds me a bit of PARRY, the old AI program, actually. Makes sense as you read from word to word - the sentences scan and they contain references to other things in the conversation, but when you try to figure out what the whole thing means, you get nothing.
Yes Ben, I was making a different and perhaps unduly unkind analogy which I now regret. Thing is, I think I know people like spellbreaker and could probably have a silly argument with him about 0.1 cents over a pub table without more exitement than one of us stomping off and then have a different silly argument the next day. In this instance I know he is wrong and would have know he was wrong before I ever picked up an instrument - read sat on a horse (which I have done exactly three times, the first time as a small boy, on the saddle in front of a teenage girl who did not understand the male anatomy)
looking for an onscreen tuner
looking for an onscreen tuner
Hi , I'm learnig violin and was wondering if anyone knew of an on screen tuner that will let me see my notes as I play them , my korg tuner is just too small to read while playing . have mic and laptop at the ready.
many thanks
Paul
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by pajic
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Here's a link to down load one, shareware I think, works fine.
http://www.aptuner.com/cgi-bin/aptuner/ftp/apmain/APTunerInstall308.exe
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by jimtowat
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Go for the peterson, they are IMO the only tuner worth bothering with. Whats the point of a tuner that is inaccurate? google them. It will cost a little but is top quality.
I recomend their new clip on tuner. Its brilliant. 60 £ is well worth every penny.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by piobagusfidil
To continue, a fiddle tuner must give perfect fifths. So any tuner that is not specifically designed for fiddle is going to put you on the wrong footing.
Further more as each note is actually not one note, but a series of overtones, as you move up the overtone series accuracy becomes even more important. Even if a standard tuner, giving you 'perfect' fifths works on the fundamental it wont be accurate enough to attain good tuning in the overtone series. Thats why accuracy of .2 cent to .1 cent is important.
Learn to tune by ear, learn to play by ear. play lots of simple scales such as , G D A concentrating on good intonation, drone open strings wherever possible as reference .
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Peterson do also have a PC-based tuner which I find to be very good:
http://www.petersontuners.com/index.cfm?category=74
You can demo the product, but you have to pay upfront:
"REFUND POLICY: You can demo StroboSoft 2.0 for a 15-day trial. A paid purchase must be made to receive the installation files and a serial. This is a fully-working demo without limited functionality.
Should you not be happy with your purchase at any time during the trial period, a refund will be provided up to 15 days from registration (not from the purchase date).
A REFUND MUST BE REQUESTED NO LATER THAN 3 DAYS AFTER THE TRIAL HAS EXPIRED."
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Flutini is very good and easy to use (you need a microphone plugged into your pc). It registers every note as you play, then you look at the end result to see how you did.
http://www.novasession.org/Flutini/
Scroll down to where it says download and follow the instructions.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by gam
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
This will do what you describe:
http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html
Third app down, 'Auto tuner for Windows XP' (there is a Mac version as well). It is fairly big on screen and if you set the screen resolution lower it is readable from across the room so you dont have to play next to the computer. Seems to give the 'same answers' as Flutini.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Thing is , if your trying to see how well you play, in relation to a 'set standard', you need to have the right set standard. In the case of the fiddle that is not the normally used Equal temperament which guitars, pianos use as their tuning system.
The advantage of the peterson tuners,[I did recomend the PC version befor the clip on version], is that you can set your tuning system. You need to be using perfect fifths for fiddle tuning or Just intonation which the peterson offers. Also the JI scale changes depending on the Key you are playing in, so its only really a tuner like this which will accurately do the job , in fact there is nothing else on the market that will do this unless you get to serious money and strobe tuners.
Other tuners might get you close, but for the fiddle to be played wel,*close* isnt good enough.
When everything is in tune the fundamental notes are in tune but so are the strong overtones . This gives the fiddle a life of its own, its opens up and everything vibrates together.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Thanks for all the help . Knowledge is a wonderfull thing indeed, although, my mountain just got taller!!! but like the man said ..If its worth doing its worth doing well.
cheers
Paul
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by pajic
Well Paul, if your going to climb a mountain, then you want advice from folk who have already been there, not other climbers milling around base camp who think that the mountain is only a little hill and who haven't actually already climbed the mountain.
Its best to have advanced warning if you think the mountain is just a hill then you wont prepare in the same way as you would knowing its a snow capped peak. If you think the mountain is just a hill then once you find yourself at the top of the first ridge and see the real peaks in the mist you might well find yourself disheartened. Forewarned is for-armed.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
spellbreaker -- Flutini allows you to set your own temperament, and also lets you decide how much of a margin of error you will accept. The best thing about it in my opinion is that you don't have to watch it. You just set it running and play. When you are finished, then you go back and see how you did.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by gam
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
sounds good gam, will check it out. Whats its most accurate setting? can it compete with peterson to 0.1 cent accuracy?
I use a Saul GHB tuner which is accurate IMO but I dont know exactly to what degree.
As we all know technology moves so rapidly that my own opinion might well be based on out of date data and The whole beauty of forums like this is that between us we can reach conclusions that alone might not be achievable. I certainly appreciate anything and anyone who can improve my knowledge and understanding.
With free open and informed debate this is possible. |Without these criterion it is not.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
http://www.novasession.org/Flutini/tutorial.html
I have a korg tuner which is so accurate it beggars belief, but it wouldn't be any use to the OP. He wants something to help his playing.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by gam
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
How accurate? precisely. The link you gave says nothing as far as I can see. Perhaps I missed it?
He wants to learn to play the fiddle. The base necessity is to be in tune . Without being in tune; perfect fifths to a high degree of accuracy he has zero chance of playing in tune. Playing in tune is a habit developed by training the ear and the fingers.
Using an inaccurate method of tuning will not produce accurate playing.
By first tuning the fiddle accurately he has a sound and solid 'base camp' upon which to base his journey. Without that camp he will find it very hard to climb his mountain. If a program does not clearly indicate its level of accuracy +/- then I would wonder why not and would be suspicious of its level of accuracy.
Your Korg tune, which model is it? google might answer my question. Anyone think that using an inaccurate tuner is going to help him play in tune?! No of course not, it will deceive him, give him a false sense of security and lead him to ignore his ears which *Will* tell him that it doesnt sound 'right' even though the machine says its fine.
The fiddle is not a solely melodic instrument, it is a Harmonic instrument as well and these harmonic relationships are crucial for playing in tune. Its about the intervals , the notes on their own have a lot more leeway than they do in harmonic relationships.
I fail to see the need for a program such as flutini, it might be useful I dont know, but its hardly essential.!! Fiddle playing is all about using your ears to hear and training your fingers to act on that hearing.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
You could use this. http://www.seventhstring.com/tuner/tuner.html
For what it's worth, the maker claims it's "The tuner is accurate to a tiny fraction of a cent except at the very bottom of its range. Below 40Hz the error can reach one cent and by the time we get down to 20Hz it may reach 2 or 3 cents maximum" The fiddle, obviously, is well above that range.
Am I guessing right that you're trying to correct your fingering?
This will work well for that, but you should try to use your ear as much as possible. Looking at this "Flutini" program, it looks like it might be just what you're looking for - depending on what you're looking for, of course!
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Settle down, now jig. Easy there. No need to get frantic.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
>>you should try to use your ear as much as possible<< Absolutely, couldnt agree more.
Frantic? dont project your fantasies on me please. I am being clear, specific and accurate. Which a prerequisite for playing the fiddle well.
Offering as a suggestion a tuner that uses Equal temperament means you clearly dont have any understanding of fiddle playing. It is worse than useless. Back to the climbing mountain analogy thats like taking advice, not from someone milling around base camp, but from someone sat at home in front of a PC who hasn't even read much about climbing mountains let alone someone whos got as far as base camp. yet issues advice on how to climb the mountain?!
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
spellbreaker -- Flutini allows you to set your own temperament, and also lets you decide how much of a margin of error you will accept
sound familiar?
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by gam
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
yes Gam, Im simply asking what that margin of error is? The temperament setting is essential, but IMO so is the margin of accuracy. So one again , how accurate is it?
sound familiar
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Good luck, Paul. Don't worry, you'll do fine. Trust your ear, it'll get you there, doesn't much matter which tuner you use to help it out.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Paul, having just read your bio, no way should you be using a tuner to help your playing. It's ears not eyes you need for intonation.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yeah, get a D drone in 2 or 3 octaves. any keyboard will provide this , just use a nail slipped under the overhang of the 2keys adjacent to each key.
Play your D scale with this drone, when you can play a nice scale, arpeggio playing double stops etc all notes sounding good with the drone in full harmony.
Then progressing onto a few standard D major , D mixolydian and Gmaj pipe tunes such as Anything for John Joe. there are hundreds more
The important thing IMO at this stage is to build good fundamentals of tone production and intonation.
Then in the tunes; good enunciation [timing] and rhythm. at some point when these things have been achieved I suggest looking to start incorporating ornaments. This is my opinion and practice. cheers
It sounds good ,it is good.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I'm am just pondering bogman's advice. I found being able to see a tuner from across the room handy when I had a not so good ear and a very dodgy embouchure on flute. It wast tricky when an interval sounded wrong to work out if, say, the first note was flat or the second sharp. Sometimes I started off a tune with a first note that was flatter than I could play some of the other notes and the tuner helped find the real culprit.
But on a string instrument you have easy access to in-tune notes from the open strings and they appear in the tune. So your ears have more to work on.
# Posted on November 21st 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
http://www.get-tuned.com/violin_tuner.php
Simple and easy.
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by Dawros Frog
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yes David, as long as the fiddle is in tune that is!!! And sometimes. you have these in tune notes as comparison as well, as you play, octaves fifths etc and you have the sympathetic vibrations too which show your in tune and your overtones are combining.
But what tuner were you using and how accurate was it?!
There is nothing worse IMO than using an inaccurate tool to measure essential lines in a construction project. Its worse than useless. Everything you build up relates to these fundamental measurements.
You are training your eyes to over rule your ears on the strength of an inaccurate measurement.
Now on flute , you have a lot more leeway than fiddle because its a purely melodic instrument, you can only play one note at a time. No sympathetic harmonic vibrations etc.
So like you say, you dont have as many stable reference points.
So if you want to attain your aims in relation to accurate embouchure and therefor notes you could do worse than follow the above advice given to Paul.
The drone will give you a solid auditory reference point that is their consistently . Its also great fun. Plus you *know* that what you are doing *is* right because it sounds good. The better it sounds the better your doing. An excellent feed back mechanism that has no disadvantages.
This combined with a solid rhythmic auditory reference point [the gnome] which will tell you clearly when you feck up the rhythm. and entrain you to maintain good rhythmical form.
Now of course these are mechanical aids, tools to help you do a job. Dont let them become crutches but dont worry that they are innately crutches as some indicate, they are not. The skills gained with these aids do not go away when you stop using them.
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Sigh.
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
>Sigh.
Yeah. It's almost like he's stuck in some sort of loop, isn't it?
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Soundcheck, if you really believe that there are no sympathetic harmonic vibrations in a flute, perhaps you should peruse these (a small sample of the many references available) :
http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/sound_synthesis/
http://www.fractionalorder.com/DemonPage/Overtone.string.DP.html
or even http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6664456.html - no point in a device to dampen something which doesn't exist!.
It's also possible in some circumstances (and more so on a Boehm flute) to produce two notes at the same time, though not of course in the same way as on a stringed instrument, or with the same choice of notes.
I've chosen to post this, rather than just add my sigh to the queue, in case anyone else finds it interesting.
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by Slightly Mad Scientist
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Not so mad at all Mr. Scientist.
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
No mr scientist, Im not talking about overtones, rather sympathetic vibrations. If you reread my post perhaps it will be clearer.
A sympathetic vibration is where a string that is not struck vibrates in harmony when another string is played , it vibrates sympathetically.
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
And clearly one sound column cant vibrate sympathetically with itself! Though other strings and objects in a room could vibrate sympathetically. A phenomena felt by all bass players who start the snare going!
If your looking to progress beyond the basics from your links I recomend A Benades 'fundamentals of musical acoustics '.
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Don't worry, Spellcheck (sic); I'm not ignoring you. I'm just waiting for the rush of blood to the head occasioned by your extraordinarily patronising final sentence to subside. I don't wish to be gratuitously rude to you, so I am intending to wait until I am completely calm, which may take some time. So long, in fact,that this thread may have moved on so far that there is no point returning to this aspect of the topic.
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by Slightly Mad Scientist
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Look mr scientist, I dont know you, you contradict a post of mine about sympathetic vibrations with links to overtone theory? ! If I then presume its because you either did not read, did not understand my post, thats patronising? I found your 'sigh' to be patronising, but I didn't go on about it. I just explained in simpler terms.
If you are actually a scientist concerned with the physics of acoustics then I look forward to an interesting discussion. Especially if you make and design conical wind instruments. Because I find it quite interesting. Particularly Uilleann pipe chanter design and specifically the E's on Narrow bore chanters .
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Scientist, you'd be better ignoring this and have discussions with people who can actually play traditional music instead of nutters who can't and who have great difficulty deciphering the stuff they're desperately trying to pick up from the internet.
0.1 of a cent, FFS
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Surely the best solution is to avoid this digital tuning malarkey and instead spend that time learning to tune by ear. If you listen to enough Irish music, you'll get used to the way it sounds, just temperament and all, and you'll be able to tune your fiddle no bother. Doesn't that sound easier than fretting about the amount of error in any particular tuner? I think so anyway.
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
@Soundcheck:
It would appear that we are not using the word "sympathetic" in identical ways. I am using it to include (but not be restricted to, just to be clear, I hope) harmonics (see http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/arts/music/elements/generalities/harmonic/harmonic.htm for example) whereas you may be confining its use to vibrations stimulated in physically discrete objects. Though you did say "no sympathetic harmonic vibrations", which is ambiguous.
It is also the case that the body of a flute vibrates while it is being played, but that may not be what you had in mind.
I do not feel patronised by your suggestion that I might not have read your post (that's just a false conclusion) but by your final sentence (as I did specify) which recommended reading material if I wished to progress beyond the basics, into which I read an assumption on your part that you already have an understanding well in excess of mine . I don't know you either; earlier versions of my thoughts which I did not post (and of which you are therefore of course unaware) included the information that I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and that I do sometimes think responses to your posts are a wee bit over the top. It is a fine thing to have as many interests as you do. Unfortunately, I am not as persuaded as you seem to be that you are an expert in all of them. Those who spread themselves thinly run the risk of being jacks of all trades and masters of none. I am, of course, basing my lack of persuadedness perforce on your internet postings; if I met you I might think otherwise.
I don't design or make instruments; I do occasionally repair them.
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by Slightly Mad Scientist
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Does blu-tack count as a repair?
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by TaoCat
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
If so, jig's an expert there as well.
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by TaoCat
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I agree SS. and my post re the drones encourages this.
@ SMS
I do not spread my interest widely , I focus on two areas. Music is my main, life long interest 35 yrs, 30 of then pretty much full time is hardly spread thin now is it?! I have not watched TV in 25yrs apart from occasional visits to family, My music is my profession and Vocation . Physics of Acoustics is merely a sub interest. I also read widely in World History. Take me out of my areas of specialisation and I am happy to admit feely my ignorance.
I dont know your understanding of the subject. I simply responded to your misunderstanding of my post. I see now where the confusion lies from your link and I see that it could be construed in the manner you suggest. but surely not if you'd read all my previous posts on this thread that explain overtones ? Whatever Im glad the misunderstanding has been cleared up and I accept that the term sympathetic harmonic vibrations could be understood in a number of ways, depending on the context .
I only suggested the standard text book on the subject because you appear to not have understood my meaning, I was assuming that you had read the thread. Had you? was it not clear enough even then?
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
On what instrument do you make your living and with whom? Discography?
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by bogman
the body of a flute vibrates while it is being played,
* Sympathetic resonance, a harmonic phenomenon wherein a body responds to external vibrations.
(Physics / General Physics) relating to vibrations occurring as a result of similar vibrations in a neighbouring body
Physics . noting or pertaining to vibrations, sounds, etc., produced by a body as the direct result of similar vibrations in a different body.
These definitions indicate to me that the vibration of the enclosing body as a result of The movement of the air column would not fall under the definition of sympathetic vibration. What do you think SMS?
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I agree SS. and my post re the drones encourages this.
@ SMS
I do not spread my interest widely , I focus on two areas. Music is my main, life long interest 35 yrs, 30 of then pretty much full time is hardly spread thin now is it?! Physics of Acoustics is merely a sub interest. I also read widely in World History. I have not watched TV in 25yrs apart fro occasional visits to family, My music is my profession and Vocation . Take me out of my areas of specialisation and I am happy to admit feely my ignorance.
I dont know your understanding of the subject. I simply responded to your misunderstanding of my post. I see now where the confusion lies from your link and I see that it could be construed in the manner you suggest. but surely not if you'd read all my previous posts on this thread that explain overtones ? Whatever Im glad the misunderstanding has been cleared up and I accept that the term sympathetic harmonic vibrations could be understood in a number of ways, depending on the context .
I only suggested the standard text book on the subject because you appear to not have understood my meaning, I was assuming that you had read the thread. Had you? was it not clear enough even then?
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
WTF how did that post get there !? dodgy browser error. disregard. My apologies.
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Soundcheck is Jig/Spellbreaker etc.
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Thanks, Prof.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Thanks, Salvador, but I did know - and I've learnt some useful lessons from experience. Whether I've learnt them properly remains to be seen.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Slightly Mad Scientist
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Soundcheck/Jig/Tradpiper/Spellbreaker/Will - What is the point in so passionately arguing for the Peterson tuner. You are trying to convince someone who lives in the Carribean and, by the sounds of it, rarely gets to play with other people to buy the most expensive tuner on the market. It seems like overkill to me.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
That's because to appear to be sane.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Guess which character I imagine as tradpiper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5IrRe2F7qY
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by fidkid
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
No cause, if you read the thread, Im not, I merely recomend that as this is the best tuner on the market by far, that they get it. I explain why.
Everything in this thread that is not part of this discussion I mentioned, is participating in a meta-thread about the activities and personalities posting in this thread. Personally I have little interest in these meta threads, but as you asked.
I then enquired about the other program with interest, Id like to feel that I can recomend it based upon its documented qualities.Its an interesting idea.
I then recomend using a D drone instead of all the devices and use his ears to learn to play in tune. If he wants to learn the fiddle, especially where he lives know, he wants a solid effective method of tuning and learning.
We then got on to a subdiscussion about the physics of acoustics , Clarifying points of scientific detail. With a mad scientist... got that?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Me - "What is the point in so passionately arguing for the Peterson tuner?"
Will - "if you read the thread, Im not, I merely recomend that as this is the best tuner on the market by far, that they get it."
Errr????
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
That not a passionate argument, its a factual argument. Thats a different thing.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
And did you see that beautifull picture of the overtones and fundamentals imposed upon themselves here?
http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/arts/music/elements/generalities/harmonic/harmonic.htm
the one that looks like an eye near the top. Amazing
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
The physics of music, strings, Air columns is a very interesting and deep subject. Nodes, anti nodes, Modes. Im just scratching the surface. Then the ear and how the brain deals with sound ..... Intriguing.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
But what is the point of spending a fortune on a tuner that is absolutely bang on if you are going to then play with a fixed tuned instrument like a box which may not be as precisely tuned? And what is the point on getting your banjo to 0.1 cent of accurate if you are just going to be playing it by yourself in the tropical sun - the same sun which will put it out of tune by at least that much as soon as you start playing it?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
You are also presuming the banjo is made to such a high degree of accuracy that it will remain as accurately tuned all the way up the neck - perfect intonation.
Your argument has more holes than a block of swiss cheese.
Nothing new there.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
We are not, we are talking about a fiddler. You dont play fiddle, so forgive me but thats why you dont understand.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I saw a Star Trek episode about nodes. They were these things that were like organic technology -- like wee computers that could reproduce and contained organic material. They were appearing in all the computers on the Enterprise and causing trouble on the ship. The crew had to get rid of them.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I understand just fine Will. You are like the NASA engineers arguing for spending millions designing a pen that writes in space when a pencil does the job just fine. You are arguing for a level of accuracy that is completely redundant. You are trying to persuade someone to shell out for a tuner that is so exclusive that the vast majority of professional traditional musicians do not use it themselves, that, in a session, would be pointless anyway as no one else will be tuning to that level of accuracy anyway.
You are also arguing for a tuner that, as an aside, probably costs more than your own guitar!
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Besides which you are talking about a £60 clip on tuner (amongst others) when the original poster asked for an easy to read tuner for the computer.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
As it happens I use the peterson tuner for the guitar too.
Which guitar no cause ? My Bartolex 7 string? or My solid Body Classical Godin? or do you mean the Godin Electric? perhaps you mean my session beater guitar, couple of hundred I think. cheapy. The others are somewhat more than the tuner I think you will find .
And no, if you'd actually read the thread the First thing I recommended was the peterson software for his PC.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Eh, be glad he's here, instead of giving out medical or safety advice on some health or safety forum.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by TaoCat
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
http://www.hanggliding.org/ Just imagine...
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by TaoCat
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Well the accuracy of the Peterson software will depend on the quality of the mic. So in addition to the cost of the software how much for a really good mic to go with it?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Nice guitars. Which one did you use for recording that "The Maids Of Mitchelstown" that I remember so fondly?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by TaoCat
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
He says he has a mic, no cause. The mic on my Iphone works fine for the peterson App. so Im sure his will be fine.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Hmm, Ive never recorded Maids of Mitchelstown. Thats the bothy band one with the harmony part right?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
<<in a session, would be pointless anyway as no one else will be tuning to that level of accuracy anyway.>>
I think youll find the guys I like to session with tune very well indeed, and they dont need a tuner !
Ah that rather depends on who your playing with in the session doesnt it no cause! .
In fact I basically didnt use a tuner for about 30yrs. Tuning by ear is second nature But gigging with electric fiddle in a rock band means your sharing a stage with a noisy drummer and bass player etc , when the pressure is on I need to rely on a tuner because its literally not possible to tune by ear. An accurate tuner is essential in this situation, and of course its much more professional not to be tuning up on stage squeek squeek.
Most electronic tuners are sh*te.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
They'll suit your "playing" just nicely then. Anyone who heard them aren't going to forget your twenty odd home recordings very quickly.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I am wondering Spellcheck. Can you describe for us, in general terms, the difference in sound between two simultaneously (i.e two fiddles) bowed notes on open A strings that are exactly the same pitch and two that are 0.1 cents apart ? The same recording played along with a pitch shifted version of itself would probably be even better.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"Ah that rather depends on who your playing with in the session doesnt it no cause! .
I think youll find the guys I like to session with tune very well indeed, and they dont need a tuner !"
See in real life you seem quite a nice person Will but on here you don't half talk a big pile of bilge. You are rather patronising to boot. I think you will find that the people I play with in sessions are every bit as good as the people you get to play with. Or do their All Ireland medals and so forth matter less because they are Scottish?
They also tune their fiddles, flutes, etc by ear but I can guarantee you that, no matter how good they are they do not get it to the kind of accuracy that you are waffling on about.
Anyway this is all a diversion from the original question. If Paul is still reading this thread and hasn't run for the hills then I apologise for all the sh*te that has been said on this thread. There were, as usual, a few good sugestions early on - in fact it would appear the very first reply pointed to a free computer tuner - ideal.
Everything after with sh*te about 0.1 cent and overtones and sympathetic harmonic vibrations can just be ignored. Ultimately though bogman is right. Learn to train your ear.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
<< I am wondering Spellcheck. Can you describe for us, in general terms, the difference in sound between two simultaneously (i.e two fiddles) bowed notes on open A strings that are exactly the same pitch and two that are 0.1 cents apart ? The same recording played along with a pitch shifted version of itself would probably be even better.>>
?Yes David this example is 1 cent out , thats +/- 2 cents on the dial. a typical tuner does not attain this level of accuracy. +/- 5 C being normal and astoundingly +/_10c being standard! .
this means that with 2 strings , they can be a whopping 20 cents out from each other and the dial says its in tune. This is acceptable? not where I play it isn't. Its out of tune. End of story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_%28music%29
@no cause , its funny how different people see things. For example as far as I am concerned you haven't the faintest clue about playing fiddle. So how you can even argue your point, based on a knowledge level of zero is beyond me.
Secondly tuning by ear, contrary to your assertion is More accurate, than the Peterson , not less. once again you demonstrate your ignorance.
You guarantee based on what ? you dont play the fiddle,. your arguing from a position of total lack of knowledge and understanding.
Back to the mountain climbing analogy, once again thats like taking advice, not from someone milling around base camp, but from someone sat at home in front of a PC who hasn't even read much about climbing mountains, let alone someone whos got as far as base camp. yet issues advice on how to climb the mountain?!
As it happens as far as whether your friends are as good as My friends, well that debatable IMHO there are very very few players in the world who can match Christy Barry for example. Best him?! I think not , but its a very subjective subject and rather pointless.
You seem to know nothing about the physics either either ? overtones, nodes waveforms Harmonics Modes of Vibration etc etc. so its all sh*te to you....
If you read the thread in is entirety I have explained clearly why accurate tuning is important. Take it onboard or not.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yes the app tuner does seem to be a good choice Paul. Its documented accuracy and variable temperaments would suggest that its within acceptable parameters.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
(1) Put them away, boys, Really.
(2) Is it even possible to play the fiddle within 0.1 cent of accuracy? It was explained to me by a fiddle player that the size and shape of your finger prevents you, even if you're a first violinist for the London Philharmonic, from playing to that minute degree of accuracy because you cannot physically put enough pressure on a tiny enough area of string to play the note. Unless you have razor blades or talons for fingers.
(3) Just because someone has climbed a mountain and hasn't died (yet) doesn't mean their judgment doesn't suck. There are plenty of idiots out there who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them to offer good advice for how to get up something. Just extending your metaphor further.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"For example as far as I am concerned you haven't the faintest clue about playing fiddle. So how you can even argue your point, based on a knowledge level of zero is beyond me. "
Pot calling the kettle black.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
...and exceptionally condescending.......
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Aye Silver, but we are talking about tuning open strings.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I may not play the fiddle but I do play music. You just move your bow over the strings to create random noise.
I have no interest in debating whether my friends are better musicians than your friends. It would be childish. You brought the subject up though. Not me.
Besides I am not arguing with you about whether the Peterson tuner is a good tuner or not. Of course it is. It may be the very best. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is whether someone who is just starting out on the fiddle and who lives somewhere where he rarely gets to play with anyone really needs to spend that level of money. As SS points out it is hard, if not impossible, to get that level of accuracy on the strings with your fingers even if you are a master. Someone just starting out would not be able to manage it. So what is the point in spending all that money getting the open strings perfectly in tune if every other note you play is out?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Arghhh - This is what happens when you try to engage someone like Will in a debate. You end up being sucked in and in the end you are not reflected in a good light yourself.
I apologise to all if I came across in any way as arrogant in that last post - particularly in the opening. It is not how I would wish to be perceived.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
You don't sound arrogant in that last post, Al. It's more of an incisive and not inaccurate observation.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
<in a session, as no one else will be tuninganyway.>>
Thats your post A , I merely replied that, factually, that depends on who plays in the session and that folk I play with simply will not accept poor tuning in themselves or others. Your assertion, unfounded, is that in sessions it '' would be pointless'' to tune 'to that level of accuracy .'
I whole heartedly reject that , a degree of 0.1 cent accuracy is completely normal in any decent fiddler. Secondly that were I not able to tune to that degree of accuracy I would not be welcome in the sessions I have frequented. Do you really think Jackie Daly is going to tolerate an out of tune hacker for a moment!?! I dont think so...
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Dare I ask.... 0.1 cent accuracy to what? A=440? The piper sitting next to you? Some equally as arbitrary standard? Tuning is socially mediated and relative.
Al is right anyway. Even if you have your open strings in tune to that degree of accuracy (whatever it is), the rest of the notes on the fiddle wouldn't be for the reason I observed above.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Compare and contrast
A) Wikipedia article on "cents" cited above:
"It is difficult to establish how many cents are perceptible to humans; this accuracy varies greatly from person to person. One author stated that humans can distinguish a difference in pitch of about 5-6 cents.[2] The threshold of what is perceptible, technically known as the just noticeable difference, also varies as a function of the timbre of the pitch: in one study, changes in tone quality reduced student musicians' ability to recognize as out-of-tune pitches that deviated from their appropriate values by ±12 cents.[3] It has also been established that increased tonal context enables listeners to judge pitch more accurately.[4]
.....................................
Normal adults are able to recognize pitch differences of as small as 25 cents very reliably. Adults with amusia, however, have trouble recognizing differences of less than 100 cents and sometimes have trouble with these or larger intervals.[7]"
B) "a degree of 0.1 cent accuracy is completely normal in any decent fiddler"
I find it hard to reconcile these two statements.
I'm also going out, so I shan't be able to peruse any responses for a while; I'm not just rudely ignoring them.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Slightly Mad Scientist
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Anyway, the OP wanted to a tuner to tell him whether his intonation and tuning as he played each note was correct.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I was playing with some young local musicians in town some years ago. We all tuned to the concertina. After an hour a dublin guy with a bouzouki comes in, sits down and tunes his instrument to his tuner. After two sets of playing along mightily out of tune he said 'Yez are all out of tune'.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Aye, Mad Scientist. I was going to ask if a difference of 1 cent, much less 0.1 cent, was discernable to the human ear.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
@SS If you go to the wiki article I linked, it demonstrates clearly the striking difference of 1 cent.
SMS@ your linked article is talking about identifying a note, on its own, not in relation to another set standard as your article points out . It goes on to demonstrate the audible difference .
Which goes back to the point about flute not having Sympathetic Harmonic resonances, so on its own, with no comparison point, its very hard to judge exactly how out/in you are. Which is why a drone is so helpful. you have a constant reference point.
Very good point salvador, which Ive made frequently in this thread from the very begining; learn to tune by ear.
But our OP, is no spring chicken, he us perfectly able to sort the wheat from the chaff on this thread . and because he is not getting any younger, I can assure him that by using an accurate tuner he has a solid foundation upon which to learn to play the fiddle.
There is nothing worse IMO than using an inaccurate tool to measure essential lines in a construction project. Its worse than useless. Everything you build up relates to these fundamental measurements.
You are training your eyes to over rule your ears on the strength of an inaccurate measurement. Dont.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Try discerning them with a few notes in between them.
Then try 0.1, on tenth of that single cent.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
The post as quoted by jig:
<in a session, as no one else will be tuninganyway.>>
The post as posted:
"You are trying to persuade someone to shell out for a tuner that is so exclusive that the vast majority of professional traditional musicians do not use it themselves, that, in a session, would be pointless anyway as no one else will be tuning to that level of accuracy anyway"
Why are you all arguing with this guy? You can't get anywhere with him. He doesn't care about true, he doesn't care what he makes up. I mean, if you're enjoying yourselves, great, carry on, but if you're not, the only way out is to walk away. He will continue to make stuff up as long as you continue to argue with him.
"Never wrestle with a pig - you both end up covered in muck, and the pig likes muck".
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"After two sets of playing along mightily out of tune he said 'Yez are all out of tune'."
Nice story, prof.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"no one else will be tuning to that level of accuracy anyway." <--- What I actually said!!
All good musicians take the time to make sure their instruments are in tune. In a large session though everyone is not going to be absolutely spot on with everyone else. They should all sound in tune though.
A box for example is a good example, when wet-tuned of an instrument that will not be bang in tune with everyone else. It is playing three different notes. It can't be.
"Do you really think Jackie Daly is going to tolerate an out of tune hacker for a moment!?!"
Well he seemed to tolerate you just fine in that session in Miltown two years ago so obviously he does...
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Well no cause, I use a Peterson tuner so I can guarantee my guitar is in tune to an accuracy of 0.1 cent, unlike yourself So there was no cause for that petty barb seeya.
There are a whole bunch of ignorant people, who have zero understanding of the questions under discussion, Jon Kiparsky , yourself No cause, Bogman, some trolling from the sidelines, with nothing constructive to add to the thread whatsoever. I really have wasted enough time pandering to this nonsense. enough is enough. The OP has his question answered . If you wish to carry on with your reprehensible behaviour, nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. Enjoy.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Listen Will, I have played for sets wit h Jackie and the rest for hundreds of nights. Some really really brutal guitarists came in on various nights. There isn't a lot you can do, only if they come back make sure they don't sit anywhere near you.
I bet they too would put in their profiles 'I have backed Jackie Daly on may occasions'.
If Jackie brings a backer, Ado Morris or Paul de Grae are likely to appear. Those he plays with. The others, well, you know...
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
You mean everyone else posting on this thread. Everyone one posting on this thread appears to disagree with you. Funny that.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
'many occasions'
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
x post
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Absolutely, but does Jackie welcome them back week after week? engage them in conversation , sit and get drunk with them? compliment them on their playing? . I rest my case Malud.
Everyone on this thread, who doesnt play the fiddle you mean bogman... All those of you, sitting at a PC, who've never even read about the instrument let alone tried to tune or play it!? , The PC mountain climbers giving advice... you mean. Yes bogman ICAFF if you and the rest of your ilk disagree with me. Really, its laughable for you to suggest that half a dozen people without a clue between them , consider, that because your a majority, that your right! Laughable if it wasnt for the fact that people who know even less than you, if thats possible , might give your words more weight than they deserve.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Okay, we get the idea. You don't care, not even a little bit.
Are you done not caring yet?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"Really, its laughable for you to suggest that half a dozen people without a clue between them"
Well, of the four players on this thread whose playing I've heard you are the only clueless one. Sorry.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Will, try the decaf.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
'Absolutely, but does Jackie welcome them back week after week? engage them in conversation , sit and get drunk with them? compliment them on their playing?'
Actually, he does. That's his job if he's heading a pub session and gets paid for it. And he does it very well.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
What I mean to say, people are generally nice in real life. They won't tell you to bugger off like they do on-line. if things get brutal, they switch off and finish the night, making the best of it while they can.
There's an awful lot of spin going on-line though. You know the situation, person X goes to a festival workshop and sits in with twenty other people while famous so and so fills two hours talking andd playing. On the CV appears 'I have studied traditional music under Famous So and So'.
Same for sessions, you often make the point you can sit with all sorts of people in Clare. You can. Does that always justify headlining 'I have ... with... on many occasions?' Well. Sometimes, but a lot of the time it is just a load of hot air, especially when used to support a particular point of view.
So it's prudent to both use a bit of restraint in using the 'I regularly play with..' and not to assign too much weight to it in an argument, unless there is a bit more than having to take someone's word for it.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Raymond Smullyan, the great logician and puzzle-creator, tells a story in one of his books of an organ grinder plying his trade in Vienna, when Richard Wagner walked by and pointed out that he was in fact cranking rather slower than that particular tune ought to be cranked, and he, Wagner, should know, since he had in fact composed that little tune.
The organ grinder thanked the composer profusely, and changed his tempo to a more appropriate one. The next day, Wagner walked by the same spot, and saw that now the organ grinder had a large sign posted: "Student of Richard Wagner"
(I believe that Wagner was the composer in the story, but I could be wrong - the point is the same, anyway)
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Absolutely Salvador, so you can go to Christys web site and confirm my statements , No need to take my word for it.
I have not ,as it happened, used this information to support my argument, besides there is no need, there is no valid counter argument put forward as yet. I await with interest other informed opinions. Uninformed opinions I disregard in general. Why should it be otherwise.?
I posted on this forum for years without mentioning any names. Now I've put a couple up just as a taster to clarify things, I could go on .
My argument is based upon fact, physics and decades of experience. Any attempts so far to counter my position has none of these things to back them up, only a few friends who also dont actually play the fiddle.!!
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Seems to me, if you make reasonable statements, then your credibility comes from the statements themselves, not citing who you've sat next to in sessions.
And if your statements are unreasonable, no amount of crowing about who you rub elbows with is going to justify them.
But then our man has a long history of such behavior here. While it may be worth a few words to counter his more egregious posts, it's silly to continue the engagement beyond that.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
'Absolutely, but does Jackie welcome them back week after week? engage them in conversation , sit and get drunk with them? compliment them on their playing?'
<<Actually, he does. That's his job if he's heading a pub session and gets paid for it. And he does it very well. >>
<<There isn't a lot you can do, only if they come back make sure they don't sit anywhere near you.>>
which is it. Prof?
Anyhow there is plenty He could do ,
He merely needs to raise the matter with the landlord who will rapidly make sure the unwelcome player is firmly persuaded not to return.
Jackie IME does not tolerate fools. Perhaps your experience is different?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
'Absolutely Salvador, so you can go to Christys web site and confirm my statements , No need to take my word for it.'
Maybe point us to his comments. I can't find them
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
<<Seems to me, if you make reasonable statements, then your credibility comes from the statements themselves,>>
Absolutely Will. Which is why I rest my case based on facts and physics .
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Will, your behavior on this thread is insulting, self-aggrandizing, and unnecessary. You do better when you stick to the high road. Think on that before posting another silly insult at someone who's very highly regarded among Clare musicians.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"Jackie IME does not tolerate fools"
Well either he tolerates you or he doesn't, you can't have it both ways...
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Or maybe it is just that, in person, you are quite an affable person. That can go a long way in compensating for anything else, fool or not.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
http://www.christybarry.com/gigs/gigs.html
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Will, your behavior on this thread is insulting, self-aggrandizing, and unnecessary. You do better when you stick to the high road. Think on that before posting another silly insult at someone who's very highly regarded among Clare musicians
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Wow - That is definitely your guitar in the picture with Christy Barry. My only question is why you loaned your guitar to Ford Kiernan?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
It's funny, some known players often come to our session. We have a chap who goes round festivals blowing off who he plays with in Skye. He's not a bad man but not a good musician and our hearts sink when he arrives at the session.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I think the whole 'but I have played with..' is a rather silly way of giving weight to an argument. Whoever does it.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
You know santa TSS...
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Especially not in trad music when it's pretty common to end up in sessions with "famous" people. Doesn't mean anything.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Aye. Was that a bodhran or the sound of names dropping I heard behind me at that session?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
LOL, he completely missed my point in his rush to be "clever."
What's sad in this case is that someone who thinks he's highly regarded among Clare musicians would stoop to insulting someone who *is* highly regarded among Clare musicians.
It's not about who you've played with. It's about getting along with them as people. And here he is insulting all these other traditional Irish musicians.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I wander what Christy Barry would think about his name being dragged through this thread for a vanity exercise.
I wouldn't know myself. Don't think I have ever met him.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
@TSS - I thought it was a sack of potatoes being emptied down a stair, luckily I was far enough away to be out of earshot last week.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Tch, it was bothering me all day while away from a computer (working in the fresh air
) that I had asked Spellcheck a question then gone away. But he didn't answer it.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Thats another guitar of mine I haven't mentioned till now which You've never seen before No Cause, so how would you recognise it?
I haven't insulted anyone in this thread Will H , Perhaps you should back up your assertion with cut and paste. you know facts rather than fantasy. Muddying the water is it again Will.? thought you were reformed, so you proclaimed last week.
Harmon, If you have anything to contribute to the thread topic, rather than this pointless, malicious meta thread, I Might be interested in what you have to say. seeing as how you actually play ther fiddle , unlike the rest of the mob Otherwise, I dont.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
David, which question?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Will, there are several contributors on this thread who I know are very well respected musicians and you did just say they didn't "have half a clue between them." That seems like an insult to me.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
The one you quoted here:http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/26040/comments#comment550348 but didn't answer - give us a clue what it *sounds* like.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Not at all SS, its a fact, how can a fact be an insult? They dont play the fiddle, so they've no business advising on tuneing and learning how to play it, or do they?!
Jon, offers a guitar tuner in Equal temperament. ?! sigh , in amongst petty digs Ali argues that no one can tune to 0.1 c accuracy on a fiddle by ear , etc etc. need I go on?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Sure I have. It is the one you have on Facebook is it not?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
David; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_%28music%29
this is 1 cent out. I dont have a link to anything more detailed. Did it not answer your question. I mean if people are arguing that +/_ 5c is acceptable tuning, what does that tell you about their argument in light of the significant and obvious difference of 1c accuracy.?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Are you saying someone who plays fiddle has a better ear and can better tell whether or not something is in tune than someone who plays something else?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
No Allistair it is not. thats another one again I hadnt mentioned
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"people are arguing that +/_ 5c is acceptable tuning"
Huh?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
You never answered my question about what the 0.1 cent of accuracy was relational to.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
You tell me SS, go tune a fiddle and learn to play a tune on it. Then come back and we can discuss the issue in light of your further education. Im not being smart , Im being serious.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I don't need to play a fiddle to tell whether or not the thing sounds in tune.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Here, Will, you said this to the Prof, who after all has recorded a cd with another respected Clare musician:
"Jackie IME does not tolerate fools. Perhaps your experience is different?"
Not much of a veil on that insult.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I would suggest you try that yourself. Remember that recording of "Rights of Man"? lol
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
@ Sp....
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"Im not being smart "
No, you're not. Though admitting it is a good step. There's hope yet.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
OK I will ask a different question. If a note from a fiddle of frequency exactly A440 is played with an note of identical timbre 0.1 cent sharper what will be the beat frequency of the fundamental and what will the beat frequency of highest audible harmonic ? How long would an note have to be held for one cycle of that beat to pass ?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
>> 1 cent is still minute it the extreme, no matter how delusional you are about your ear.
One cent is as close to nothing that it makes essentially no difference whatsoever.
If everyone could play within +5 or -5 cents off 440 how sweet sessions would be
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by bogman
Harmon it would take a devious mind to twist my statement into an insult. Of course I was not saying Peter is a fool, far from it, he said than in his , experience Jackie does tolerate unwelcome guests, so Our experience is different.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
No sorry folks, Spellcheck is right to make the point about notes heard simultaneously - which is when out of tuneness matters most. I can play a note against a drone better than to 4 or 5 cents and my ear is fairly cloth like. Last time this came up I think we found out that a wet box is in that sort of range.
Paul - if you are still around - just play with that tuner app, you will soon see the sort of numbers that matter.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
That is not arguing for it being acceptable tuning. You've taken that out of context from another thread.
Here's some famous musicians well out of tune. Many sessions are considerably worse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnvgqxwz_VA&feature=related
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I hasten to add that my normal playing is very often a lot worse than 10 cents
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
<<OK I will ask a different question. If a note from a fiddle of frequency exactly A440 is played with an note of identical timbre 0.1 cent sharper what will be the beat frequency of the fundamental and what will the beat frequency of highest audible harmonic ? How long would an note have to be held for one cycle of that beat to pass ?>>
Excellent question, well thought out and phrased. My answer is not
feck who cares! The aim Is perfect fifths., not perfect fifth +/- 0.1 cent, 1 cent or 10 cents. Its called being in tune. Im sure you could work it out if your so inclined. I cant be arsed , I dont have the figures in my head and Im not running around looking in books or searching google for the answer.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
And here's the whole thread, in case anyone doesn't remember you're insanity
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24496/comments#comment511335
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
quite liked this though
http://www.accordionpage.com/wetdry.html
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
<< I don't know how many times I've heard student brass players say, "I used a tuner and my tuning note is perfect. I can't be out of tune." Yeah...right. :( >>
cboody
I second cboodys frustration. If you want to rely on a tuner, because your ears are not, for whatever reason, able to do it unaided then for fecks sake get a good accurate tuner. +/- 5c, +/-10 cf, are out of tune. +/- 1 cent is clearly identifiably out of tune. so clearly an accuracy greater the +/- 0.5c is required.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Ahh - I see we are no longer Facebook friends. Oh well. I suppose this thread has taken some rather nasty turns so I understand why. I am astounded though at your inability to recognise how insulting and condescending you have been on this thread.
I meant what I said. You are an affable person to be around in real life. I understand your attachment to these musicians and it is great when someone you respect compliments your playing. In fact it is great when anyone compliments your playing. It gives you a little boost. I remember you comlimenting me on my guitar playing in Ennis and I thank you for it. It was very nice of you.
I am just not sure what happens when you get on here. The normally friendly and outgoing Will of real life becomes completely batsh*t crazy. Ach well. The dangers of the internet.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"As wet as a Bronx cheer"
I liked that!
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"The normally friendly and outgoing Will of real life becomes completely batsh*t crazy. "
Even though I've never met the guy, I suspected and hoped this was the case--that he'd be okay to hang with in a pub over pints and tunes. Not so much in mustardia.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Putting all the rubbish aside, here's a little exercise for non pitched instrument tune players using the simple tuner Jon linked http://www.seventhstring.com/tuner/tuner.html
Play a slowish tune and hold the odd note, not an open string on fiddle, and see if you can keep every note within 1 cent. See if you can avoid never touching 5 cents out. Then imagine doing in in a session where other players have their parameters of intonation as well. Remembering the different 'just intonations' of the various instruments and the different skill levels of the musicians and the din of the bodhrans.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
.......and remembering of course the argument is about one tenth of a cent.........
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Piece of cake. I simply closed my eyes and it was perfect.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
And there's the old bit among violinists that it's "better to be sharp than out of tune."
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
lol, or accordions! Better to be flat and sharp and in tune all at the same time than simply be in tune. Is it a disguise?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Oh dear,
bogyman the tuner you link is worse than useless, its a joke. Its in Equal temperament. Do you know what that means and what application it has to the fiddle? none. Yet your very free insulting me, calling me insane etc etc, yet you clearly dont have a clue. sigh, and this is the quality of the opposing argument?!!! And people here really think I, or the OP ,should take you seriously!?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
What did I tell you about arguing with this guy?
Maybe he's a fine upstanding and not-entirely-crazy-like-a-soup-sandwich sort of guy in real life, but is there any point in arguing with this here?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Ok, I didn't have more than a quick look at the tuner, and said it was simple. In that case every time you get to a particular note hold it and see if it's with 1 cent of the same place on the tuner.
I don't care if you take me seriously. You're clearly nuts.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
No there isn't. You were right.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I've been at sessions where C****** B**** has played dozens of times. More often than not, he's tuned his flute to a Paolo Soprani accordian at the start.
If he gets within 0.1 cent doing that, he must be a better musician than any of us are giving him credit for.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DaveL35
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
.....and in any case at least the tuner will make everyone aware of the sensitivity of 1 cent far less 0.1 of a cent, which was my point.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
oops, multiple x posts.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Amazing Slow Downer (I know Bogman has views on that...but bear with me!) can't change tuning 0.1 cent. It does 1 cent minimum and you can't hear the difference.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Dave35, we are not talking about tuning a flute!! aagh read the thread, its been discussed plenty of times. The thread is about tuning a fiddle, not a flute. the flutes fundamental behaviour as regards intonation is governed by the skill of the maker, then embouchure and tuning slide. the Fiddles fundamental behaviour in this regard is governed by the skill of the player tuning it! then playing it.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
>> embouchure and tuning slide <<
i.e. the skill of the player tuning it, then playing it.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DaveL35
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Another thing from memory.
Old, blind, fiddle player in Tubbercurry. Sat down was at the fiddle for nearly ten minutes to get it perfectly in tune.
Then commenced to play with all his fingers more than slightly out.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Aye David, but are ye saying that it doesnae matter who made the flute? or how good the are at tuning the instrument?
Yes its up to the player, but the maker did most of the tuning before ye bought the flute. It matters nothin how good your embouchure is or where the tuning slide is positioned if the cork is in the wrong place , It wont ever play in tune over 2 octaves.
The art in wind instrument making is getting the instrument tuned well and playing well .
As regards the blind fiddler, sigh, yes well tuning the instrument is stage 1, playing it well is another matter altogether. if Its tuned at least you have a chance of playing it in tune. If its not in tune at first, forget it.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
No, I was just trying to suggest (not explicitly, I admit) that if a player has tuned to a PS accordian they will neither know nor care whether anyone else in the session is 0.1 cent out.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DaveL35
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Maybe you should spend a fraction of the time you do on stage 1 on stage 2.
" It matters nothin how good your embouchure is or where the tuning slide is positioned if the cork is in the wrong place"
And the fiddle bridge?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
You don't play the fiddle, Bogman. You're not allowed to say anything about it. Remember??
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
On that logic, no one who doesn't play uilleann pipes is allowed to tell me how out of tune I am. As I don't play tunes with many other uilleann pipers, no one is ever allowed to tell me I am out of tune. So as long as it sounds accurate to me, I'm in tune. Win! I like this game.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Dave, I'm sure everyone else reading the thread got your gist straight away. It's not just about fiddles, they're only part the picture. The picture that's invisible to spellcheck (or whatever his latest name is)
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
ah, yea sorry ma'am......
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
David H, you say you test your embouchure and intonation using a tuner, what sort of tuner? I ask because you say your intonation is off, My question is in relation to what standard ? JI or ET or, let alone how accurate it is! Most tuners are marketed for ET with +/- 10 or 5 cents. so your tuner could be tellin you your 10c off, but actually your dead on....
Thank god for the latest wave of tuners that actually have acceptable error levels.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Will, how did musicians ever get by before the age of electronic tuners?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
There was more drink involved back then, and they had ears like rabbits.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Well TSS, When I started mid 70's I never heard about such things, we tuned by ear to each other.
I bought my first dedicated tuner about 5 yrs ago. Peterson strobo flip. the new clip on has a JI scale for tuning UP chanters so if your not sure of your tuning, theyre dirt cheap now at 60£. bargain.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I answered that because Spellcheck doesn't answer questions if they aren't in his script.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Aye. So what you're saying is we don't need electronic tuners. We need some whisky and a rabbit.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Aye thats it TSS, the answer all along, did ye get that paul? ye need some whisky and rabbits and yell be fine. Dinnae worry about tuning yr fiddle jist drink some whishky and it ll be grand.
glad we got that sorted.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Well, listeners need to have as much whisky as the players or it doesn't help the tuning, and in the olden days they just had better ears, maybe a bit like rabbits, because they didn't have mechanical devices to dilute their senses.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
When on earth did you get a fake online Scots accent?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
@spellcheck...
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
What do you think of my fake online English accent TSS?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Absolutely convincing. How is mine?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I couldnae help it, once ye start on aboot whisky and Rabbits,
Last time those two were together I was living in a bender , in Winter, at Raspberry layby , Appin, drinking home made poteen made by a guy called Rabbit Pete on his little still, as the eye glass filled up it would go round the circle.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Which explains *a lot*
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
For £60 you can get a pretty bloody nice bottle of whisky. Isn't that a better use of money than a tuner?
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
The fake online Scottish accent also features on Chiff and Fipple without the need for whisky or rabbits (the whisky will be Bunny Haven I take it?).
The rest of this can be ignored by anyone who's enjoying the lighter touch which has now appeared.
[To clarify the point I made before I went out, the wikipedia article which I quoted was the one on cents linked by Spellcheck, in response to a question from David50, not any of my links. It asserts that the detection limit of the human hearing system is 5-6 cents.
Here's another reference : http://etd.lib.ttu.edu/theses/available/etd-03252009-31295001544831/unrestricted/31295001544831.pdf - this one's a PhD thesis which tested school children and adult musicians. This is a quote from the conclusion:
"...it was concluded that no classification of human beings including practicing (sic) musicians can distinguish accurately in the 2 cents range."
From this I conclude that a person tuning a fiddle BY EAR might occasionally be within 0.1 cents of whatever arbitrary standard was being adhered to, but it would not only be a fluke, they would also be unaware that they had done so without subsequent recourse to a super duper electronic tuner. It is therefore completely unrealistic to demand that standard of accuracy as routine and bizarre to assert that tuning by ear out-performs such tuners.
There isn't a way of producing italics or bold on here, is there? I don't like shouting.]
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by Slightly Mad Scientist
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Seen it _done like this_ to emphasise something.
If you have two steady tones, played clearly and one immediately following the other as on the wiki link then a decent eat can hear it. However, if you ask which one is concert nobody is going to know. Also say you play a tune at average session speed .......say this.......
|: d | eABG AGEG | ~A2 EA B/c/d ea | gedB ABGA | EGGF GABd |
eA ~A2 BAGE | ~G3A B/c/d eg | aged BG ~G2 | ABde BAA :|
Play 3 of the A's and 3 of the G's one cent (that's 1 cent, not 0.1 cent) out of tune and ask for favourite trad musician which ones they are and there is not a prayer they'll be able to tell you
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
.....of course your favourite trad musician is not going to be able to play all the other notes within 1 cent accuracy anyway so the exercise is hopeless. Not that they would want to anyway.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Oh, yes. Chiffandfipple. Your man there in real life has as much of a Scottish accent as I do, which makes it kind of funny. Anyway....
Yeah, what they said. No one can hear within 0.1 cent of accuracy to some arbitrary standard; they certainly can't play it.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
SMS you're resume and conclusions are so out of touch with the discussion I wonder again if you've actually read it? the subject is tuning the fiddle, out of curiosity do you play the fiddle?
As the discussion is not about individual notes on their own, but about intervals, which is how you tune the fiddle, taking as an example an irrelevant article hardly then bolsters your position does it?
As the wiki link clearly demonstrated the beating of 1 cent out is obvious. Perhaps you and others cant hear this difference? Anyhow its obvious to any trained musician of calibre. Im sure you must be in this group so you can clearly here the difference.
# So your post is either duplicitous, which I highly doubt, or you have no understanding of tuning a fiddle.
To play the fiddle well, it needs to be in tune with itself.
To tune the fiddle we use perfect fifths then a range of other intervals,''. We ascertain the openness , for want of a better word' where the overtones are in tune with each other from the different strings and intervals
To tune the fiddle satisfactory under these circumstances a level of accuracy of under 1 c is essential and to be in perfect tune the degree of accuracy must also logically, be perfect.
This is generally directed to the non-fiddlers heatedly posting on this fiddle thread;
As I've said before , if you dont know how to tune a fiddle, if you haven't tune a fiddle every day for many many years ,then dont be so sure you know what your talking about when we are discussing tuning a fiddle. Consider the possibility , however vague, that someone who has been tuning in fifths every day for 25yrs might jut possibly have a better grasp of the essential aspects than yourself who has clearly never done it. . does that make sense?
Talking about tuning flutes, whistles etc is completely irrelevant. to tuning a fiddle. If it makes you feel better yes with no intervals for comparison no perfect fifths, no perfect thirds and 4ths it makes little difference a small fraction of a cent. But for the fiddle this is demonstrably false as the wiki link clearly proves. Fiddle strings are tuned in relation to each other ,not alone.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
A fiddle player I know who has been carefully reading this thread thinks you're talking crap and finds it ridiculous to obsess over the +/- 0.1 cent, or even +/-1 cent (I see you have amended your statements to the latter) which the ear can't even perceive.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Is that so, good for him, dont see him saying it in public though, hmm, not too confident of his position? Which part of the physics of Vibrating strings does he think is crap?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Hey! That was meant to be bollox.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
If he had a username on this forum I am sure he would tell you himself.
When we're talking about tuning an instrument, we're talking about sounds you can actually hear. You don't seem to want to accept the premise that when you get down to minute units of measurement like 0.1 cents, you won't be able to tell the difference. Fancy technology or possibly your dog probably could, but for the purposes of playing tune and having the instrument in tune as far as your perception of "in-tuneness" goes, who cares?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Can s/ he explain why 'your friend' takes this postion? What degree of in-tunenss dos he think acceptable for himself?
Does he feel that we should all consider this degree to be acceptable?
or does he feel that he can tune his fiddle as well as anyone? and that therefore he tunes as good as or better than +/- 0.1 cent?
Or does thinks I tune my fiddle better than he does because I use the Peterson which gives a documented accuracy of this degree?
I can say with certainty that no one has ever complained that my fiddle is too in tune!
Perhaps the fiddler in question would like to come out of the closet and debate in public? Im interested because this would be the first fiddler , on this thread, that I know of, to argue contrary to my position.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
>>You don't seem to want to accept the premise that when you get down to minute units of measurement like 0.1 cents, you won't be able to tell the difference. <<
Well of course not TSS, because I know for a fact that its not true. I know that 0.1 c+/- is ok, not perfect but its ok for me. I know for a fact that there ae no other tuners that are acceptable to my ear, its really really simple,most tuners dont work. The intellitouch is not bad, its ok, for rough sessions,. but I wouldnt dream of relying on it because its not very accurate.
Now if you or anyone wishes to bring facts to the discussion, based on sound science that you or anyone can explain, Id be delighted to hear it. Untill that time I will rely on the textbooks and the experience I have.
Look , we are both Pipers, Ive been Piping for 15+ years I know how important tuning is. If you play your pipes, and they sound out of tune to you, but the others say its fine, how do you feel ? are you happy to play even though you know your out of tune? Im not, it bugs me , Id rather not play than play out of tune, especially in public.
Let me quote John MacLellen here.
'Never play on an out of tune instrument.'
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
While I was drafting a ridiculously lengthy reply, which my computer now won't let me access, so I've lost it (I don't currently have a word-processing program on here, so I can't save, cut and paste), things have moved on and I may not bother recreating it. It's one a.m. now, so I certainly won't tonight.
Just one thought - the fact that the human ear has detection limits which do not go as low as 0.1 cent _is_ based on sound (pun! Aargh!) science. Neither you, nor I in the days when I used to tune fiddles, nor anyone else human, can detect intervals that small, Spellcheck. The vibration of the string will not be at the same frequency (there's the physics for you, but again, the possibility of determining this will depend on the measuring device employed), but _you will not be able to detect that by ear_. Do you really have textbooks that claim otherwise? Perfection is elusive.
It's a shame that you seem to think anyone who disagrees with you is out of touch with the discussion. I'm reminded of the small boy at the school cadet corps parade whose proud parents said "Oh, look, everyone's out of step except our Johnny!"
Good night everyone.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Slightly Mad Scientist
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
There has been plenty of scientific evidence bandied this thread about what the ear can and cannot detect. This makes your arguments about being within 1 or 0.1 cents of whatever arbitrary criteria of in-tune you're using irrelevant, since no human being can detect those frequencies anyway.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
So your saying that the tuner is more accurate than the human ear? based on 'sound science' Peer reviewed? And these were trained musicians with 30yrs of experience were they, or untrained school kids? how big was the sample pool?
Im interested in seeing these documents. can you link to them or where they were published. Thanks
You can cant you? your not making unfounded assertions are you? you couldn't possibly be proffering the phd thesis above as your evidence could you?!
I mean anyone can read it and see how inapplicable they are to a violinist who day in day out tunes and plays perfect fifths. To suggest that No one has or can achieve perfect fifths , a greater accuracy than 0.1c +/- based on what evidence?
Look you might be a scientist , are you a fiddler? you've not answered the question,, your post indicate to me that you are not.
However I give you the benefit of the doubt, lets see your evidence. As a fiddler who tunes to +/-0.1 cent many times a day[gut strings] I refute your contention that I cant hear this difference,.
Fortunately this is not a parade ground, and Im not obliged to stay in line. Im quite content to be out of step , Infact, I consider it a compliment to be out of step with some of the garbage that gets posted hear as advice, like use a guitar tuner for the fiddle! jeez!
Ps, if you use firefox try out lazarus plug in...
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Is that so TSS, where?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
LOL, this is silly. Jig, *you* don't back up your claims with carefully cited data, but you demand it of anyone who disagrees with you. Sigh.
I found this at: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/sound/u11l2a.cfm
"The sensation of a frequency is commonly referred to as the pitch of a sound. A high pitch sound corresponds to a high frequency sound wave and a low pitch sound corresponds to a low frequency sound wave. Amazingly, many people, especially those who have been musically trained, are capable of detecting a difference in frequency between two separate sounds that is as little as 2 Hz. When two sounds with a frequency difference of greater than 7 Hz are played simultaneously, most people are capable of detecting the presence of a complex wave pattern resulting from the interference and superposition of the two sound waves."
Now you can't really convert Hz to cents because cents aren't a unit of frequency the way hertz are. And the ratio of cents to hertz varies depending on the relative pitch of the frequencies being considered. As explained here: (http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech/2002-December/124924.html)
'A 440 is at 440.000 Htz. A# is at a frequency of 466.164. That means A# beats 26.164 Hz faster than A. There are 100 cents between A and A#. That means the difference between each beat is about 3.82 cents. G# beats at 415.305 beats per second, which is 24.95 beats less than A. There also 100 cents between G# and A. But because it is lower, there are more cents between beats. (4.01 to be exact)."
So according to these piano tuners and physics teachers, at 440 Hz, the trained, musician's ear, distinguishing down to 2 Hz is still only within 7.64 cents of perfection. To be fair, that's maybe within 3.82 cents either flat or sharp of spot on.
Still a far cry from 1 cent or 0.1 cent.
Oh. And I've played fiddle for 35 years. I tune open strings to fifths by ear. And I don't need an expensive tuner to help me (I've used a Peterson Auto Strobe 490, and I do just fine tuning by ear.)
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Okay, here's something you might find interesting.
http://tonometric.com/adaptivepitch/
Jig, I'd like to know what you make of the statistics that you'll see after you take the test. I won't ask you what you get on the test, since I don't want to test your honesty that much.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Of course I cross-post with Will dropping the mad science. Ain't that the way.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Hey Jon, that's a cool test! I scored 1.2 Hz (59th percentile). Not too bad, considering I had about 18 years of *very* loud music in my past
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Hey, Jon, didn't you recommend not arguing with the guy?
Still, I understand the attraction perfectly. Despite a veneer of cynicism, at heart we tend to be optimists, and have difficulty believing that some people are just completely without reason. You give logic, you get pseudo-logic in return. You offer logic, you get insults. Worse is the fact that nobody, but nobody agrees with him, and he takes this as a good sign. A misunderstood genius trying to enlighten the unwashed. Puffed up with names to drop and completely unaware that we might remember his less-than-stellar musical efforts on the now defunct soundlantern.
I feel for him, although I can't help but rising to the bait once in a while.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by TaoCat
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Just goes to show how little night life there is in Boston.....
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Rev, I wouldn't put too much faith in that test. I scored a 0.3 Hz. But I can't hear a thing my wife says.....
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yeah, it's not a big music town... not like Helena, boy howdy.
Will - based on your post, I'm thinking a cent is therefore about 1/4 Hz at 440, is that right? So a tenth of that is 1/40 hertz? Like, one beat every 40 seconds? Am I geting that right?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Well if you divide the cent per beat into 100, yes, you get a cent at 440 Hz equals about 0.26178 Hz, or a beat every 4 seconds.
Boy howdy is right. We're a hopping town, Tuesday in the provinces, -9 F (-23 C) as we speak. Supposed to actually get cold tomorrow night....
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
...now where was this thread a few months ago, when I began the process of weaning myself off my electronic tuner and was fretting over being able to get my open strings within 5 cents of the electronic standard nearly all the time, but improvement beyond that was eluding me? Sigh. (Still can't hear beats nearly as well as I can identify fifths by ear, though, but I can do the latter ok.)
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
TDM, if you don't own an electric guitar, get yourself to a music store and plug one into an amp. Turn the volume up just enough to get the sales clerk's attention. Then de-tune the fifth (low A) string about a 1/4 turn. Then hold it at the 5th fret, pick it, and pick the open 4th string. As you re-tune the 5th string to match the open 4th, you'll easily hear the beats going from a flutter to a longer wah-wah-wah, and then to a really long waaaaah-waaaaah-waaaah as it approaches the same pitch.
Once you hear the beats this way, it's much easier to notice them and listen for them on your fiddle.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Ahh luminosity, nice site.
LOL
So Will, your saying that you agree with SMS that its not possible to tune a violin to an accuracy level of 0+1/- cent by ear?, unless its a lucky strike?
That my tuner is better than your ear?! I doubt that . Trying to use internet science to back up that claim is like trying to convince someone that a bumble bee cant fly on the strength of your science. Despite the bumble bee flying past the window.
Excuse me lads have have you noticed the elephant in the room yet?
You are clearly saying that I can tune my fiddle , using my peterson tuner better than anyone in history, or in the orchestras, quartets around the world for the last several hundred years has done intentionally , by ear? Based on what evidence? I can tune my fiddle using my gadget better than you can Will by ear ? why thank you
So which is it? Either you cant tune your fiddle by ear as accurately as I can with my peterson, in which case your premise is correct, or you can, in which case its not.
Now isnt that a case of arguing yourself into a hole if I ever saw one.
TDAM tuning your fiddle by fifths IS tuning by beats. Its a product of the overtone relationships.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
line 1 correction >> 0.1c +/- <<
My account has expired at luminosity so I didn't play your game.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Is this still going on ! OK. To Slightly Mad Scientist: the reason I brought up wet tuned boxes was because of the difference between distinguishing the pitches of notes heard consecutively and those heard simultaneously. Being in tune is mainly about he latter. We can't distinguish better than a few cents for consecutive notes but hear the notes together and it sounds like a multi-voice box. The page bogman links give a lot of detail on that, with numbers. A box sounds wet because of the beats.
As Will H says, 1 cent at A440 is 1 beat in four seconds (go easy on the significant figures though Will) and, as Will says, is fairly easy to hear if with notes having similar timbre and volume - that is what we hear when we tune a fretted instrument by fretting a string. A slight change in finger pressure is enough to change the pitch by a cent or two and we hear that, as Will says.
I had drunk too much last night to safely drive a computer, but can now declare that at A440 0.1 cents is one beat in 40 seconds. I am listening to two synthetic tones played simultaneously 0.1 cents apart. It slowly gets quieter and louder over many seconds. If the tone had high harmonics they would beat faster but even if we could hear the ones up near the limit of an older persons hearing it would still be a contribution to the wet-tuned box range.
So, as Will H as pointed out, the consequences of pitch difference in the order of a cent are relevant when tuning an instrument even though we won't notice errors of that scale when playing solo. I ain't much of a musician yet but had beats explained to me 45 years ago. They come up all over the place with machinery. I once sat next to an aero engineer on a twin-engined plane and he was grumbling that the engine speeds were out of tune, pointed out the beats.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
... contribution in the wet tuned box range...
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Wow, ffs, really, I wish I hadn't looked now!
Can't believe I just read all of that, where's my medal do I get one ?: (
I've a Korg tuner thats really really accurate also. Most of my tuning is done by ear though, but still, it has it's uses and it is cheap.
For finger accuracy on the fiddle I'd think (not being a fiddler myself) you just have to use the lugs. Unless the eventual plan is to have a tuner implanted in the head, but that would be sore and unnecessary.
Fortunately I can live being a few cents short of the dollar, unlike some it seems.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yes, I have a Korg CA-30. LCD needle seems to read to a cent or so, green LED on its own is +/ 1 cent I think (hard to catch it). Tuning fork gives bang on A440. Fit-for-purpose. Cost about a tenner.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Should have been a
with the 'hard to catch it'
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Good man David H,
As you point out synthetic pure tones dont contain the overtones that a fiddle does. When tuning the fiddle these overtones are the essential aspect . We are not tuning only the fundamental but the overtones. As you go up the overtone series the accuracy becomes more vital, first overtone of A at440 is 880 and up and up.
But your tuner?! aagh is THAT the tuner you use for your flute intonation?! agahst... seriously no wonder you have problems. It is set to Equal temperament. Its accuracy level in not advertised by Korg though its there in the spec. +/-1.5 cents. . Its a piece of sh*te to put it bluntly. yes for a guitar player it can quickly help you get into the right range but the guitar is in ET so by design its guaranteed to be out of tune everywhere! Best thing possible with guitar, especially in trad music is to get the best approximation you can, using the best tools available.
The fiddle is not a feckin guitar, you cant use a guitar tuner to tune a fiddle?!!! got that.? jeez
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
We're saying that while you can probably tune accurately (maybe), you can't tune to 0.1 cent. The basic premise that you can hear that numerical value of, mind you, a measurement unit that is as arbitrary as any other measurement unit, is flawed.
Oh well. You can't reason with the unreasonable.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yawn (not even worth a sigh). Spellbreaker, there is no point in going round the loop again. I don't think you are ever going to get it. Go away and read the first few chapters of this http://www.archive.org/stream/onsensationsofto00helmrich#page/n7/mode/2up The guy was one of the founding fathers of psychoacoustics. In the best Victorian style it was written for the intelligent man in the street so you don't need to know any acoustics or phsyiology to start with, though you will by the end. A very small amount of it has been superceded, but nothing relevant to this discussion. As I understand it you are wrong and everyone else is right.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Oh yes, and I found it took a month or two away from web forums to find the time to read it
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Is that so David, how interesting... so you can use your guitar tuner to tune your fiddle? and it doesnt matter the tuner uses ET, or is inaccurate. grand. glad youve put me in my place. Jeez
and you base your assertions on what?
A440 0.1 cents is one beat in 40 seconds.
the first overtone is 880 2:1,
the third overtone is an octave and fifth 3:2 1320 HZ
then double octave 1760hz ,
then major third of the double octave 5:4 thats 2200hz
now how many seconds per beat?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
correction; the second overtone[third harmonic] is an octave and fifth 3:2 1320 HZ
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Spellbreaker, the only way I can make sense of that post is to assume that when you use a tuner you just look at what the little coloured lights are doing rather than watch the needle, or the only relevant position of the needle is bang in the middle. Its like reading the tuner dial on a radio - values that you may be interested in are in different places but you have to know where. Thats why radio stations have those jingles that tell you their frequency.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Is that so David, how interesting. I use a virtual strobe tuner david, there are no lights or little needles.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Rarely has a thread (and I told Jeremy I wasn't posting to this one - sorry, boss) lurched so crazily and repeatedly from the sublime to the ridiculous. I'm probably not allowed to say which contributor I think fits the latter bill. So on to the next step now I reckon: a discussion as to how all this agonising over superfine, super-accurate tuning chimes with playing in sessions...
A 0.1 cent for your thoughts?
Anybody give me an A?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Oh I see Spellbreaker, so you don't have to think about it at all ?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Or listen
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Heheh.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I had been ignoring this thread, but just scanned through it. Truly a quirky little discussion...
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Little? This is post 237 and the guy just asked for an online tuner!
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I like line-caught tuna.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Ha,the fish pun ploy. Are you trying to entice TSS away from the popcorn ?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
No, he's trying to tell you all of this yammering is giving him a haddock.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
It depends on your instrument steve, and the calibre of players playing and what they think is acceptable, right?
he want an aid to help him tune his fiddle.
So if your all tuning to electronic tuner that have an accuracy of +/- 10 c then this is the accuracy required for your session. If your host tunes to +/-. 0.1 c and you insist that your flashing light say your in tune but the host thinks your crap and would you ever feck off with your out of tune cacophony, then your accuracy simply isnt good enough. right?
It depends on the standard of session. Some sessions are very tolerant , some are not.
However as Im sure you know this thread is not about session playing , its advice to a wannabe fiddler on the edges of known civilisation
So I recomend he doesnt bother with guitar tuners, as advised by some folk here, who also happen to liberally dose their 'advice' with invective aimed at me. Ive explained very clearly why.
I recomend he gets the most accurate tuner available, that is designed for fiddle.
Some people have a problem with that advice. , that striving for accuracy in a session, would be pointless anyway as no one else will be tuning to that level of accuracy
And of course they are welcome to that opinion, and in the sessions they frequent they could well be right.
But does that mean we should all accept that its not important to strive for tuning accuracy in playing in sessions?
Or that +/-10 cents is good tuning? or that a guitar tuner is suitable for tuning a fiddle . or that no fiddler can tune their instrument by ear as well as I can with my tuner? These propositions are frankly, IMO untenable .
But sure what do I know? as David said IHO everyone else is right and im wrong. so work away.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"But sure what do I know?"
When it comes to traditional music, very little, as this thread would suggest.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Is that so, how interesting. your contributions have been really helpful , thanks for your comments , Im sure Paul will be fine with a guitar tuner as you suggest. whats intonation anyhow eh? Ill tell Christy that the gigs are off because you say I cant play and you must know cos your famous and plays in a pop band. Gee Im meant to be recording for radio tonight! shock!! what were they thinking ? better cancel that too... arent I so lucky to have you to put me straight. cheers
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Will you stop being an idiot?
This sort of comments does nothing for any last shred of credibility you think you may have.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
" a guitar tuner as you suggest" - where?
Ok, money where the mouth is.
What radio programme so we can listen to it?
Point us to your gig list with Christy Barry.
Please answer these. You don't normally reply to questions you don'y have an answer for.
"Paul, having just read your bio, no way should you be using a tuner to help your playing. It's ears not eyes you need for intonation." - that was my contribution. Not to mention exposing your bull, with the help of all the other posters.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Funny too, you claimed to be on CB's gig page and No Cause pointed out it was only your guitar with someone else playing it. Dodged that one too. You claim the thread is about fiddle and that me and others have no right commenting yet your bragging all refers to guitar. I suppose you realize many of us have already heard your fiddle playing, which is begginerish at best. You need to grow up and wake up. Smell the coffee or you are never going to make progress.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Sorry bogman - that was a joke. I was saying he looked like Ford Kiernan from Chewin the Fat. Oops.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Well we've all played gigs with folk we regret, look forward to seeing the gig list.
Still, nobody has commented on the guitar playing. It's the fiddle bull that's the joke.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
The photo appears to be from the Valle Luna benefit concert for the people of Haiti and was in La Gomera in the Canary Islands.
Here is an expanded shot from that photo:
http://www.christybarry.com/photos/christyphotos.html
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
http://www.gomeratv.com/index.php?id=215
... then click on the Christy Barry video. Yer man is off to the right and eventually the video shot pans round that way.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
>> then major third of the double octave 5:4 thats 2200hz now how many seconds per beat?
Ermmm, quick math in my head (so I don't put too much credence in it) still puts the beat of that highest overtone at about 7 seconds. And I find it difficult to believe that a human could play a steady enough note on a fiddle for longer than 7 seconds to be able to hear a 7 second beat on a very quiet, high pitched overtone. But I play banjo, so what do I know?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Ahh jeez salvador cant ye take a joke?
NIce one rev, but thats not the highest overtone! far from it, they go on. and also, we are not talking about unison tuning, but perfect fifths.
So the overtones of the prime and fifths need to coincide for the tuning to be acceptable IMO.
And as we know the higher the pitch , the more essential good tuning.
The argument remains, can I tune my fiddle using the tuner than all fiddlers through past and present till they came up with this gadget. or is it possible to tune to that level of accuracy by ear?
bog you said this.>>
Putting all the rubbish aside, here's a little exercise for non pitched instrument tune players using the simple tuner Jon linked http://www.seventhstring.com/tuner/tuner.html
Play a slowish tune and hold the odd note, not an open string on fiddle, and see if you can keep every note within 1 cent. See if you can avoid never touching 5 cents out. Then imagine doing in in a session where other players have their parameters of intonation as well. Remembering the different 'just intonations' of the various instruments and the different skill levels of the musicians and the din of the bodhrans.<<
cool, thanks for the video, hadn't seen that, it was a session, not a gig had to figure out which session too.
Nice mandolin from Frank there. Lovely instrument made by himself no doubt.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Some people say you're a joke. You're trying to give them every reason to believe that.
No, I can't take it. It's embarrassing.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
That's right spell, to show the sensitivity of 1 cent. As you know the thread had moved well away from advice for the OP by that point. It had moved on to your obsession with you tuner.
Did you try the test Jon linked? http://tonometric.com/adaptivepitch/
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Ermm [1. quick dash to spreadsheet, 2. sticks neck out] for the harmonics Hertz difference goes up in proportion to frequency and cents difference stays the same. Double the frequency and the beat period halves.
For 0.1 cent the octave is 880 and 880.05 [hah, now I see that the excess decimal places in Will's post came from a paste]which is a 20 second beat. Four octaves up is 1760 & 1760.1 - so a 10 second beat. By 14kHz which I can't hear (and nothing much to hear on a flute) we are down to a 1.25 second 'waaaaah-waaaaah-waaaah' (wow, I had to go a long way to copy that from Will's post). Still nowhere near to wet box beat frequency on the fundamental.
Hope I got that right. But yes, I agree with Reverend's main point.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Those sessions that our friend refers to that are so intolerant... I wonder how they manage to get on with those guitars that are in 12tET, especially when you start bunging capos on 'em, and those flutes and whistles that are generally sort of approximately in tune but which change a bit according to how hard you blow 'em, and those compromise-tuned reed instruments, and all that slight drifting out of tune according to ambient temperature... Then there's his implication that the "standard of session" is somehow related to this extreme fine-tuning hooey. You'd spend all night tuning and playing no tunes. A bunch of Castagnaris and Stradivariuses and a Peterson tuner do not a high-standard session make, I reckon...
If all else fails you can use a guitar tuner to find the pitch of one string and tune the rest by ear. We all know about instruments that are perfectly in tune with themselves but not with anyone else. I have a G harmonica like that.
Otherwise, as I say...anybody give me an A?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Jon, Reverend, did you ever teach a basic programming course where almost the first exercise was a to print a Centigrade to Fahrenheit conversion table. There was always some bright spark with little sense of the practical who did it in 0.001 degree steps. Ah, punch cards and teletypes. My typing was a lot more accurate then.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"Otherwise, as I say...anybody give me an A?"
Dunno, Steve - are there any Canadians posting right now? Maybe you should ask the Commando Trad folks.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Hell, give yourself the bloody A, you're the bloody teacher.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
So we are now very close now to the beat in the wiki link.which everyone can clearly hear. Only of course as we go up to the next set of overtones we get much closer. and closer and closer .
No david, no cut and paste there at all, any errors are entirely my own.
Still doesnt answer the question, am I right , that the fiddle can be tuned by ear , to an equal or greater degree of accuracy than 0.1c+/- ? Or that this is 'impossible based on ahem, 'science'
Is It ok to tune a fiddle to a guitar tuner? I say not.
Is it a good idea to try and learn to play the fiddle and checking your intonation, against a guitar tuner?!!!
Seemingly the majority on this thread feels so, and surely the majority must be right? especially on such a well informed web site with so many eminent respected trad musicians.
So yes here you are, I concede , Ive obviously been mistaken all these years and that its not possible to tune a fiddle by ear accurately +/-0.1 cent. Happy now? youve all won. Struck a blow for freedom of speech and majority rule. Its pointless trying to attain perfect fifths , +/-10c is good tuning and what is just intonation anyway.
grand now no need, to discuss this anymore. Paul has his answer as dictated by the majority and he can go away secure that the advice hes received by everyone except me is fully based on experience and understanding.
cheers
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
The OP didn't want (at least he didn't ask for) an aid to help him tune his fiddle. He explicitly asked for an online tuner which he could watch while he was playing (i.e. after he had tuned his fiddle) to "see" his notes as he produced them. He was given a few suggestions for suitable software. I hope he's found one that suits him.
I had been going to apologize for my part in prolonging this (with the pursuit of truth as the noble motivation and a few less noble ones creeping in along the way), but the night shift and early day shift have made some interesting contributions so I feel a bit less guilty. I now intend to shut up and do something more productive like prising frozen logs off my woodpile. Thank you to all those whose posts were sublime.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Slightly Mad Scientist
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"Ermm [1. quick dash to spreadsheet, 2. sticks neck out] for the harmonics Hertz difference goes up in proportion to frequency and cents difference stays the same. Double the frequency and the beat period halves."
This looks right to me. So if A=440 and A#=466.mumble, Hz difference is 26.whatever. Now take it to the octave - A=880, A#=932 and change. Hertz difference doubles, but there's still 100 cents between the two. So one cent is now 52/100 Hz, inexactly (it's a log scale, so that's way off at each end, but as an approximation it'll do for the moment). That's 2 seconds per beat, which agrees with your spreadsheet.
I'm terribly slow with this sort of thing, though - I do best when I have time to sit down with a big sheet of paper and play with numbers until I see how things fit together.
(to answer your other question, I haven't taught any CS courses, I'm just a tech writer with delusions of coding, but I do spend some time on a Java help forum answering "n00b" questions, and I see a lot of what you might call "interesting" programming logic. I haven't seen that particular case, yet, but i'm sure I will)
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yes scientist, and It was nice to recieve his thanks in a PM. as he said, he could do with every little bit of help. [your welcome Paul]
Mad scientist befor you go ? weren't you going to provide citations to support your 'science'? didnt your argument rest on those proof? ah sure not to worry We all know bumble bees cant fly and that its not possible to tune the fiddle to a high degree of accuracy by ear We wus told so by a scientist so it must be true eh?
So thanks for edumacating me about tuning fiddles. much appreciated. I can flog my petersons and buy a Korg! Result.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"No david, no cut and paste there at all, any errors are entirely my own. " I was referring to Will Harmon's post Spellbreaker
I expect that the OP is doing just fine.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
The guy who I knew who spent 1000's on Hi Fi kit but has poor hearing particularly at mid to high frequencies didn't sell it. He just kept reading the reviews and shouting about how good it was.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
He likes making stuff up the Spellbreaker eh?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Now, if there's anyone who wants to take a crack at what change in tension is required to change the pitch of a fiddle's open A string by 0.1 cent, that would be an interesting number to know.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Interesting to see the famous Jig at long last in that video clip with Christy Barry playing the spoons.People have implied that I also have dropped names here. I dispute that. I have stated that it is hard to avoid playing with great players here where Jig,the Prof and I live as almost every session has great players employed to play. Anybody can play with Jackie Daly ,Christy Barry,Siobhan Peoples,Kevin Griffin or dozens more because they are completely accessible and sharing musicians. To wear it as a badge of honour that you have joined these musicians in a session is, as the Prof says, embarrasing. Dissapointed to say ,after watching the video, that I have never before seen Jig here in County Clare. I do commend you though for p*ssing off the right people!
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by big_tab
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Somewhat in Spellbreaker's defence I have to agree that if you are going to use a tuner then it makes sense to use the most accurate tuner that you can afford. I used to really struggle to get my mandolin in tune either by ear (mine isn't all that good) or the with various tuners that I have owned. Having acquired the Peterson Strobosoft software it's now a doddle. The Stroboclip is on my Christmas list.
The claimed 0.1 cent accuracy is obviously nominal and would probably only apply for a pure, stable sound source. Real instruments aren't like that. The sound of a fiddle is full of harmonics at related and not-so-related frequencies plus bow noise. And even with open strings the pitch will vary slightly with varying bow pressure. Nevertheless I think it's possible to get within 1 cent and I reckon that's pretty well fit for any purpose.
The characteristic sound of multiple violins, whether it be a string section or massed fiddles at a session, derives from the fact that no two players are playing exactly the same pitch at any one time and these differences are constantly varying. Chorus effects on pedals and synth patches attempt to mimic this.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
That's a good question, Jon. Is it even possible to adjust the string within +/- 0.1 cent of your frequency of choice? Do they tuning pegs allow for adjustments with that level of precision?
Better question... Is it possible to adjust the tuning of uilleann pipes with that degree of precision.....Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Kevin Griffin is a monster banjo player big_tab, maybe next time you see him you could double check that his banjo is tuned within 0.1 of a cent
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Don't know TSS but it would be worth a shot.
bogman - I wasn't aware banjos tuned.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Better question still ... Is it possible to adjust the tuning of uilleann pipes with any degree of precision.....
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
>> There was always some bright spark with little sense of the practical who did it in 0.001 degree steps
LOL David! But I can *feel* .001 degree fahrenheit difference, because I have decades of experience working on very scientifical thermometers (or thermo-meters, as I like to call them). If you've never worked on one of these, you're not qualified to say that it isn't possible. For chrissakes, I work in a lab with a direct descendant of Gabriel Fahrenheit himself, and do you think he would allow me to work there if I didn't have super awesome skills at detecting temperature differences???
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
We all know the answer to that, Jon.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
OK, doing math like this is potentially fraught with problems, so feel free to correct me. But the difference in tension between 440Hz and 440.26Hz is going to be approximately 20 grams of tension. Figured like this:
The formula for figuring string tension is as follows:
T = (UW x (2 x L x F) ^2) / 386.4
Result is in lbs.
F = Frequency in Hz
L = Scale Length in inches - Fiddle scale length 328mm, or 12.913 inches
UW = String Unit Weight in pounds per linear inch
I couldn't find stats on the UW of a Perlon string, but if it was a (heavier) guitar string, it would be ~.00011271, so I'll use that number
440Hz T=(.00011271 x (2 x 12.913 x 440)^2) / 386.4 = 37.662266 lbs
440.26Hz T=(.00011271 x (2 x 12.913 x 440.26)^2) / 386.4 = 37.70678
So the difference is about 4/100 of a pound, or approximately 20 grams of tension.
Or not... But at least I tried
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
@TSS, yes pefection pegs are an excellent and highly recomended tuning peg for fiddle. Its a simple matter to tune to +/- 0.1 c o with them.
So despite all the noise, slagging, sarcasm displayed , all the character assassination and innuendo does anyone have a sound argument in defence of your untenable position? or its all bull.?
As I suspected.
right, to confirm my original position.You can not successfully tune a fiddle with a guitar tuner.
It needs to be an accurate tuner for accurate tuning. got that boys and girls? clear enough for ye? jeez
yes Jon , it is possible to tune a set of uilleann pipes with precision. Or you want to argue that point as well?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
It would be interesting to know what that change in tension is in terms of string extension and amount of rotation on a fine tuner. And I will admit that a fiddle and strobe tuner would be a good way of finding out empricially. Google can't find me anything.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
fine tuners are generally crap, unless its a one piece tail unit.
Other wise, tune from the pegs like folk have been doing for centuries, much more accurate than crappy fine tuners. Or you want to argue that point?
Otherwise Perfection pegs are the way to go.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
You get the pitch for one string from a tuner then tune the other strings by ear. Saves the fiddle player from bringing his own tuner.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
You really do have an aggressive manner in your posting Mr Spellbreaker. Unfortunately that is not something that lends itself to winning people over in a debate.
Now here is a challenge for you. Find another living, breathing human being who agrees with you in all your various theorums and hypotheses on this thread and get them to post to that effect. Bet you can't.
Note I am not saying that a Peterson tuner is not a very good tuner. I have already agreed that it is probably the very best tuner you can get. The question is just how useful that level of accuracy effectively is, and particularly for someone who doesn't play with other people with any regularly and who will have more pressing issues of intonation to worry about. Can it really be effectively argued that it is good value for money in those circumstances?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"yes Jon , it is possible to tune a set of uilleann pipes with precision. Or you want to argue that point as well?"
That was a joke, son, ain't you got no sense at all?
Man, you make me tired.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"fine tuners are generally crap, unless its a one piece tail unit."
Well get a one piece then. All the best fiddlers I know use fine tuners. Even the decent ones. I won't argue the point, all you have to do is youtube all your favourite fiddle players who ever play with anyone else in public and you'll see fine tuners on their fiddles
Yet another bonkers jigism.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
read the thread Ali,
theorems? hypothesises? no . facts. argue with facts all you like Ali. it will get you nowhere. which of course is where you are when you start making petty derogatory digs. look at all the insults even from you no cause !
very ineffective in 'winning' debates. basically what you and others do is shout down opposition, stifle free speech , thats mob rule. you want part of that? fine. have it.
Im happy to debate reasonably with anyone, but start making personal comments, insults? thats an admission of failure.
In fact thats my first law of internet forums. the first person/group to make personal comments, however subtle and snide, instead of dealing with the argument itself , forfeits the argument.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
lol
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
So that will be a no then.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"Well Paul, if your going to climb a mountain, then you want advice from folk who have already been there, not other climbers milling around base camp who think that the mountain is only a little hill and who haven't actually already climbed the mountain."
Pot, kettle.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I dont need back up. Any one with any nouse can ascertain all my facts and explanations on this thread are both accurate and correct.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
big_tab wrote: 'Dissapointed to say ,after watching the video, that I have never before seen Jig here in County Clare.'
rofl
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
OK, David, I tried the math (I wrote a program to figure it out for me.)
To have that A string stretched from 37.6656 lbs of pressure to 37.7064 lbs of pressure, you would need to change the string length from 12.913 inches to 12.920 inches. So 7/100 of an inch, or 1.78 mm.
I don't really know the dimensions of a fiddle tuning peg (ignorant banjo player syndrome again), but let's say it's .3" diameter, then the circumference would be ~.94", or 23.88mm. So you would have to turn the peg about 7 percent of a turn, or about 27 degrees.
That seems like way too much to me. You turn your pegs that far, you're going to be tuning way more than .1 cent, I would think.
Where did my math go wrong? (This is why I'm a computer programmer, not a mathematician)
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I agree that the numbers seem goofy - I think it's the 20 grams, that seems way too much for me.
Damned if I can spot your error, though. Maybe when I get home I'll clear off my desk and get out a pencil.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
oops, my math is backwards... I will try to redo it after I do some real work...
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
FWIW (not much, given that Jig never understands substantive posts, or at least always ignores the ones that shine light through the gaping holes in his reasoning):
I play fiddle. I use a Pusch ebony tailpiece with built-in fine tuners (recommended to me, personally, by--WHAM! [name drop]--Kevin Burke). I don't use a tuner of any kind when I play fiddle in sessions. I simply my A or D string to whatever fixed pitch instrument is in the circle (usually a very high-end, well in-tune concertina), and then tune my other strings to that open string. Been doing it this way for 35 years.
On the rare occasion I do use a tuner, I tune my A string to 440 Hz and then tune my other strings to that open string.
I don't care a whit about 1 cent or 0.1 cent. I just get the fiddle to sounding as good as I can with my ears. Because it's my *ears* that tell me where to put my fingers for the notes of the lovely tunes that I play.
Which several of us (Jig included) have already pointed out to the OP--use your ears.
However Jig and Christy Barry get along in meatspace, I shudder to think what would run through Christy's mind if he came on here and read the litany of Jig's crowing. That's truly sad.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Wait, the error in math was the original calculation of the Hz value of A440 + .1 cent.
That value should be 440.026, not 440.26
I'll fix the math
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"I dont need back up. Any one with any nouse can ascertain all my facts and explanations on this thread are both accurate and correct."
What a wonderful answer. Bravo.
The way I see it you label our comments as insults whilst your comments are facts. The point that we are all ignorant because we are not fiddlers (except of course those that are fiddlers who also disagree with you) is a "fact" whilst us calling you a sh*t musician is an insult.
On the basis of your own assessments I am afraid I have to disagree. It is actually an undisputable fact that you are rubbish as a musician. Everyone who has listened to you agrees on this point. So where is the insult in the conveying of this fact? In fact the fact that you are woeful as well as completely batty (also a fact) has direct relevance to the veracity of the advice you give on here. That therefore makes them salient facts.
Now, for the record, I don't care whether someone is a good musician or not. What difference should it make, particularly on a website where we are all far removed from each other? It is great that this music allows folk of all abilities and ages to take part - from 8 to 88. We are all on a learning curve. Where I am on that curve I wouldn't like to guess. All I know is there are some musicians who are not as good as me and others who I can scarcely imagine being as good as no matter how many years I work at it. By and large I am ok with that.
Where it does matter is that you swing in here repeatedly offering advice and opinions completely contrary to common consensus and label them as indisputable to anyone except idiots. You then attempt to establish your authority by quoting great musicians like Christy and Jackie as if that somehow means you must be right because you sat in a session with them once and they didn't punch you in the eye. You disparage anyone who disagrees with you and then refuse to answer any of their questions. You offer little that is either helpful or constructive. That is why it matters.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Woah. A video. Holy crap - I really thought you never existed at all.
You are real. Jaysus.
When you were backing Frank there, were you like the glue?
or was the other guitarist the glue?
I like the ending. You made it.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Well that's self delusion for you. State your "facts" and label anyone who disagrees with them as having no sense. That way, you don't have to think through all those inconvenient questions and counter arguments.
After all, this is more about being "right" than it is about possibly learning anything from other people passionate about the same music, eh?
It must be lonely to be the only rational, sensible, right person in the room....
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Thank you Will (H, not E). I've never picked up a fiddle in my life yet I worked out how to tune one, and you confirmed it for me. It's amazing how some people want everything to be rocket science. They even want fun to be rocket science.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Will E? Who is that?
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Will E. Coyote. Star of many cartoons.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Excellent post No Cause. " I don't care whether someone is a good musician or not". Exactly, and I see things the same way generally. I don't like calling Jig, of Dick Miles for that matter, for what they are but they massively misrepresent themselves while taking a superior position and being extremely condescending to folk that can actually play. I don't hold any personal grudge to jig but I'm afraid I find charlatans hard to swallow and it brings out the worst in me. I wish it didn't.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Ahh - I used to like his cartoons. Very funny. Still confused as to who the Will E is on this forum though.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Same dude, believe it or not. He retired from the pictures - one too many falls from the cliff. Now he thinks he's a fiddler and a piper and has this idea that he knows everything there is to know about trad music. It's a shame, the trauma to the head seems to have made him agrgessive and hard to manage.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Hugo, if that Frank Tate in that clip? He is very good mates with the OM player I play with all the time, though I've only met him a couple of times. Crickey surely not a thread of a connection between me and jig. He did look mightily weakened in that clip right enough. Mind you, backed by two guitars, a bodhran and some cooking utensils (no matter who was banging them together) who wouldn't be fecking weak? Frank, if you read this, greetings from Skye.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Oh, you mean Spellbreaker. Forgive me the confusion it is just that the name "Will Evans" that he has been being called for the last wee while is, in fact just another pseudonym - or at least the "Evans" bit.
I hope you will understand my bafflement....
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Well, whoever he is, I hope he gets help. Our at least realises that he need it...
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by TaoCat
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
*needs* Much as I need more coffee.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by TaoCat
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
OK, redid the math.
For 440Hz, that A string would be at a tension of
27.37.665607667425 lbs
For 440.026Hz (.1 cent sharp), the string would be at a tension of
37.67005918894 lbs
To stretch the string to the .1 cent sharp tone, you would need to move it about .00076 inches, or approximately .2mm.
I don't believe that you could get that kind of resolution with friction pegs. It is possible, I suppose, that you could get that kind of resolution with fine tuners. But the question is whether you could hear it, and I think we've hashed through that answer already...
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Bogman - it is.
I dunno about 'weakened'. I like playing with Frank. Its been a while tho. Jig was feeling it too eh. All that gyrating. I thought only yanks did that when they played diddley. (sorry tab)
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Thanks for that, Rev. I knew that 20 grams figure wasn't working for me.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Frank is a lovely player, he was up against it there though...
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
(37.665607667425 lbs ignore the 27. at the beginning)
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I do admire your dedication to the cause, Rev.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
... he went to collage with my mate Seumas, they studied instrument making together.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
oops, @ Hugo that was..
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I think one of the problems with folks like Jig and Dick Miles is that they tend to assume no one else who posts on here can actually play well, that we're all a bunch of hacks. And that's mistaken.
Just because people don't crow about their accomplishments in the music doesn't mean they aren't good, even brilliant, players. In fact, it tends to run just the opposite--good players let their music speak for them, while desperate wannabe's sometimes spread their tail feathers beyond their ability to keep them standing.
That may be why, in part, NCFA's experience in person with Jig was different--Jig was face to face with someone who can contribute to the music, a shared passion.
I usually carry on here in mustardia with the assumption that the lot of you would be welcome at my local session, unless you prove otherwise (by posting a horrible sound clip or acting a right knob in the discussions).
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"I usually carry on here in mustardia with the assumption that the lot of you would be welcome at my local session, unless you prove otherwise (by posting a horrible sound clip or acting a right knob in the discussions). "
Good rule. It never hurts to start by assuming the best of someone.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
>> I do admire your dedication to the cause, Rev
Beats workin' on the day before a national holiday
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
That video of Christy playing spoons and Jig backing on guitar sorta proves my point. Nothing flashy in Jig's backing, but he's listening, follows the tunes well, and I like that he's behind the melody, not burying it--it helps that he's playing what looks and sounds like a nylon strung guitar. I'd give him a seat at our local sesh any day. (He'd likely have to take turn with our local guitarist though, who is equally capable of backing tunes.)
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yes, he'd be welcome to play guitar at ours too, the fiddle - I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that he's better than the clip he posted, otherwise he'd struggle.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I hate when backers in general keep going after a tune tho.
Its not like there's that much to do.
Thats doesn't scream 80 billion years of experience to me. Nor does playing with another guitarist. If someone keeps playing guitar, I don't. Ever. 99% of the time it doesn't work.
His backing is ok for what it is tho. Kind of in the background, unoffensive backing. Not glue, or any other bullsh*t.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
...The kind of thing you could learn in 2 years of playing. Tops.
# Posted on November 24th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yes, hugo, it takes a couple of years to learn to play a few tunes, but to pick them up in their hundreds, or thousands, takes somewhat longer wouldn't you agree?
That was the first time I met or played with Frank, a very quite instrument and necessarily so was the accompaniment. but in the crosses, where the session has died, because the piper and banjo player, sat next to each other could not hear each other, then my role is somewhat different. In that sort of situation, yes the only thing keeping the session going was the backer. like it or lump it. Oh and everyone in the room knew it too.
By the way the other guitarist in the clip was not playing. he doesnt play trad at all.
Anyone know what the tunes Frank was playing were? theyre familiar from somewhere.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/518
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/406
The first ones misnamed here, it's actually called MacLeods farewell - by Donald Shaw.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Ah the one thats sometimes played in E, I think Ive played it a few times in sessions , there both pretty popular eh? I know Lad O'Beirne's has been on a' to do' list for quite a while but there are many tunes that attract me more so whether it will ever sink in! thanks
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I think a guy round our way plays that first tune in E calling it 'the squeaky reel'
I have it now anyhow[in D], thanks again.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
The squeeky reel, yes, it was written in E and I've heard it pretty squeeky in that key alright
. Almost everyone plays in in D now though. Lunasa called it the Wedding Reel on one of their recordings and the name has kind of stuck, much to Donald Shaws displeasure I believe.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"In that sort of situation, yes the only thing keeping the session going was the backer. like it or lump it. Oh and everyone in the room knew it too. "
Stop the presses! I actually agree with something Spellbreaker said on this thread.
If melody players can hear each other, you don't need a guitar or zouk as "glue" but in a loud pub, sometimes it's the only thing holding the session together. If I can't hear the melody players across the table, I have to follow the rhythm of the guitar, which I usually can hear.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
What, no cooking utensils ?
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
An outbreak of peace, who'd have thunk it : )
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Is this now one of the top longest postings on this forum ?
I'm No. 331........
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Doubt it, but I think it might be one of the few 'tempestuous' threads that hasn't been heavily edited and suspensions arising.... yet
Now back to tuning the fiddle...... LOL
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Hi jig.
I feel bad about joining this thread late And only then to disagree or it may seem - to slag u off. That wasn't the intention. So, apologies go to urself and the op if I went a little too far.
I really only ever spent about a year or so working out chords and stuff. The rest u just pick up as u play. U develop as u session.
Unlike you though, I'm reticent to put in the amount of years as it is some kind of achievement. I don't go on about who I play with either. It by no means is a representation of my playing. In no way can I pool myself in with them. And.... I mean this in the nicest way possible, my playing would be closer to that of my musical friends than for example any and all of the recordings you provided compared to say, J Daly, but I still don't go on about it.
The only way I feel, you could keep posting here without being labelled "embarrassing" by your countymen (even though neither of you are even from Ireland, let alone Clare. Incidentally, I'd say big tab is from fecking Carlow or something) or by being constantly banned, or abused and ridiculed by the majority of this site is to ask yourself, if ur MO working for you here. It clearly is not Will. I no u see urself as the folk hero, robin hood type challenging the status quo etc. Ur not.
So as not to include myself I'n the bullies,
I have no problem discussing things WITH you I'n the future, but not if you bring into it;
A. Who you've played with
B. Your whole "if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me" rediculously flawed argument.
C. I've been playing for...... Years.
I Look forward to discussing music WITH you in the future.
(Written on a phone on a train)
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Good man yr self hugo. But I hasten to point out that I only ever mentioned a few names as a result of all the insulting belittling,and ignorant comments directed at me over the years because I hold an opinion that differs to some posters here. Remember I posted here for years before finally pulling a couple of names out of the hat to make a point.
and who could blame them 
I also feel that its a valid point, and id actually find it easier to know ,who you play with, what you play, how long you've played how seriously you take the music, not to establish a 'position of authority' but to understand where you are coming from. I dont mean you personally but a general 'you'.
Does it matter? of course It does!! Look at this thread...out of all the posters here only 2 of us actually play the fiddle. The thread was about accurately tuning and playing a fiddle, something Ive spent an awful lot of time attaining over the last 17 or so years, and Ive a long way to go in climbing this particular mountain, accepted but I have thousands of hours actually doing it. So is that not relevant to the discussion? All of the most vocal opponents on this thread have not one hour experience between them? Is that totally Irrelevant? I really dont think so, do you?
Im quite happy to accept that will H has been playing fiddle much longer than me, and I certainly hope hes better at it than me after all those years ! but Im still willing to bet I can do things he cant do, just as he can do plenty I cant do. Life is like that , its not a competition, we all have our strong points and weak points and I can say that with confidence about any fiddler in the land. For a start I doubt there are many fiddlers who'd WANT to do what I do
I have to be frank, yet when Im frank Im accused of self aggrandisement. Its a lose lose situation.
I have no MO. This is who I am, Im not bluffing, posturing, boasting. Im merely pointing out what IMO are relevant facts.
Your opinion for example ,>>''.Your whole "if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me" rediculously flawed argument.''>>
Its your opinion, its not a fact, It doesnt matter if everyone bar me feels that way, it makes no difference at all to me, not the slightest. My opinion is that its not a flawed argument. That's how I learn , I emulate masters, and for me its been a very successful strategy and I recomend it based on my experience of doing so. A lot of experience in a lot of fields, not just fiddle, not just music. Its part of my core philosophy.
Perhaps it is flawed... Enlighten me as to why then if you can , dont shout me down, and if, after everyone has done their very best to show me why my opinion is flawed, I still maintain my position that is my right to be a stubborn SOB.
And am I not free to explain why I feel it is an excellent philosophy?
and if you continue to maintain your position, as is your right, fair enough, we both listened with an open mind, we can agree to disagree, and we can both discuss, recomend our positions to others here, freely, without attempting to control, bully, belittle ,shout down , insult , mob, swarm, denigrate the others position because, is it not clear to you all, at this stage, that those methods are not working, have not worked and will not work ? after how many years? Im still here, Im not going away. , well I will be for some months soon, but you know what Im saying
You see, I dont feel embarrassed by this thread, on the contrary, and Im quite sure there are people today who do, and rightfully.
Dont feel embarrassed on my behalf! jeez look in your own eye brother before trying to look in mine.
No hugo, I dont see myself as a Robin hood guy LOL not at all, Im just a guy who loves the music, plays the music, loves my kids and friends and all Im about is spreading that love around a bit. The world is hideous enough with out us making it worse eh?
I appreciate your post Hugo , thank you, but I cant accept your conditions. How could I respect myself if I did?
You are free to engage or not as you so choose.
Now whos round is it. ?
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yes, that's the problem folk have been having. First of all, if we all used A,B, and C here it would be a right mess, (e.g. yes, but I"VE played with ##### or I've been playing #### years - there's no way anyone would get along) and secondly, A, B and C don't really have any relevance or substance - for any of us.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
ah, cross post. I give up.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Just liberally lace the above post with commas where you feel they are appropriate
I freely accept that without spell check Id be well and truly fecked. Because over the last 25 yrs Ive pick up a pen only to write song lyrics and set lists, in capitals. Joined up writing that is legible has always been beyond me. 
it doesnt mean Im stupid, just unedumacated in the subtleties of writing English.
Im happy to be corrected where I make errors, and in return, if you need advice in my fields of specialisation, Im more than happy to help out.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
" id actually find it easier to know ,who you play with, what you play, how long you've played how seriously you take the music, not to establish a 'position of authority' but to understand where you are coming from."
Well, I've never thought this before, but maybe it would be best if everyone had to post examples of their playing before posting here. Then nobody could misrepresent themselves. A sad situation indeed.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I hope not. No samples of my playing come anywhere near the internet. Eeek!
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
But like I said bogman, If you took a sample of my tin whistle recording and judge me on that you'd wouldn't be looking a 0.1% of what i do. same with the fiddle, bigger , 0.5 % perhaps less . Id have to fill a dozen Albums before you had much understanding. You'd need to spend weeks in my company. seriously. In fact, when I come up to Sky next I will visit your session and if you dont eat your words on this site, willingly, Ill buy the Drinks all night for the session . , and if you do then Mines a hot toddy. What do ya say? I couldn't say fairer than that now ...
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Better still, bogman, if people would concentrate on what others say and whether it makes sense, rather than trying to set up some sort of pecking order based on perceived skills. If jig were able to say something sensible and relevant, and do it in a civilized fashion, I wouldn't care that his playing is crap, and if he were the genius of all instruments he evidently thinks he is, I wouldn't care much about that since he's a rude and arrogant little toad in the conversations we have here. So I don't see what it would help to have to sit through him squeaking out a tune...
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Except of course jon, your the person doing exactly what you describe, while projecting your very own behaviour in your post on me , blatantly. How on earth a clever guy like you could think were all so dumb as not to read your words for what they are, I dont know. Amazing.
Do you actually read your own posts after you have typed it? did you notice you aggressively insulting me 4 times in your post. did you find any insults from me anywhere on this thread? anywhere? directed at anyone? cut and paste. lets see what the truth is, now as you seem insistent on bringing a pleasant conversation down to the language of the gutter.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Keep digging, Will. Basically you are saying (or this is how it reads), "I am such a genius and so beyond any of the rest of you that it would take weeks and weeks in my company to appreciate my genius. My artistic ingenuity goes beyond one little set of tunes that if that is all one hears, one cannot appreciate the genius that is me."
Really? I hope that's not what you mean.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Oh God! I thought this thread had died. It was good dead.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yes, Will, here you go, your fourth post in the thread:
"Well Paul, if your going to climb a mountain, then you want advice from folk who have already been there, not other climbers milling around base camp who think that the mountain is only a little hill and who haven't actually already climbed the mountain.
Its best to have advanced warning if you think the mountain is just a hill then you wont prepare in the same way as you would knowing its a snow capped peak. If you think the mountain is just a hill then once you find yourself at the top of the first ridge and see the real peaks in the mist you might well find yourself disheartened. Forewarned is for-armed. "
And, from later on:
"In fact thats my first law of internet forums. the first person/group to make personal comments, however subtle and snide, instead of dealing with the argument itself , forfeits the argument. "
Let it be noted that yours was the first post to disparage the skills and experience of those who disagree with you.
Whether you have the balls to admit it and withdraw gracefully is up to you. I'm not holding my breath.
NCFA - You're right, I know. Don't know why I'm carrying on with this. Will stop now, and go eat and drink wine, because it's a good day for that.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
In the actual world of real trad and trad musicians I've often heard is said that you're only as good as your last tune. I've always thought of that as fair enough. But this is pointless.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"Will stop now" - just realized that could be be taken as an imperative. What I meant was "I will stop now...", but Will, you can stop any time you like.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Jon, are you saying then that your advice was based on experience and understanding? that its Ok to tune the fiddle to a free guitar tuner? that you have learnt to tune and play the fiddle? that you do have skill in playing the fiddle that you do have experience tuning the fiddle? in that case Im sorry if I doubted you and said as such. its just that the very idea of using a poor guitar tuner to tune a fiddle is in my experience a very bad idea.
NoTSS Im not at all, Im saying that because I have been playing 35 yrs, starting on Bass and guitar moving to singing mandolin banjo fiddle and pipes over those decades, including various percussion. that to that judge just even one of those instruments fairly could not be accomplished in 3 minutes. and that even if you did , that it would not relate to any of the other instruments. For example as a bass player you would not be able to judge my fiddle. nothing more and Im willing to demonstrate in person, in session. is that not fair enough?
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
For example heres a bass sample. Now I dont expect you to think that much of it, i just plugged a bass in fecked about and thats it just now what does it tell you about my band bass playing? my pipering? singing? seriously do you think that that sample encompasses what I do. never mind I haven't picked up the bass in a year or 2.
[url=http://www.filefreak.com/files/745570_i6np0/ZOOM0003.MP3]ZOOM0003.MP3[/url]
hope it works
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I thought this was a fiddle thread? You've played that in the last year or 2, right?
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
yes bogman, this is a fiddle thread, and your giving advice on tuning and playing the fiddle, you want me to cut you quote out to remind you?
, so after you my friend, lets hear your fiddling
. I know wont be warmed up, just cold fingers , but It will have to do wont it. A challenge eh bogman... LOL. dont worry, were friends here eh? A tricky instrument the fiddle I know. Just tuning it is not half as easy as some might imagine... operative word there... imagine. so ....
and while you do that Ill go record a quick tune, take 1
My sample will also be cold fingers, no fire burning today, and Ive been in town and stuff and recording is always an unnatural environment ,Tell you what I wont even listen to it, ill just record and upload.
But no excuses eh and I wont expect any from you
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I think you'll find my advice was on traditional music in general. You've given advice on virtually everything conceivable here so you can hardly use that excuse.
And by the way, you'll find good players don't use a plethera of excuses. " Haven't played for couple of years", "Cold fingers", "Bit rusty", "Tricky instrument", "Unnatural environment". Good players just play.
But to quote you again, "But no excuses eh and I wont expect any from you"
Nice one, my friend
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Off out to the session now though, but I'm sure it'll be something for me to enjoy tomorrow.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
bogman, waw
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Oeidipus
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
bogman this was your advice to the fiddle student >>Putting all the rubbish aside, here's a little exercise for non pitched instrument tune players using the simple tuner Jon linked http://www.seventhstring.com/tuner/tuner.html
Never one to mince words LOL and all the other posters who slag of my advice apart from Will who can actually play, Can any of you tune a fiddle? let alone play it. 
Play a slowish tune and hold the odd note, not an open string on fiddle, and see if you can keep every note within 1 cent. See if you can avoid never touching 5 cents out. Then imagine doing in in a session where other players have their parameters of intonation as well. Remembering the different 'just intonations' of the various instruments and the different skill levels of the musicians and the din of the bodhrans.>>
do you still stand by it? on this, as you said; fiddle thread. conveniently changing the goalpost are you?
bogman , you repeatedly contradicted me on this thread, telling me how bad my advice was . and after all this you cant play the fiddle? YOU just told me it was a fiddle thread, If you dont play fiddle then WTF are you doing slagging me off and giving sh*te advice to a newbie when you dont actually, as I said, have a clue...
So as I said, after you...
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Sigh I had to listen to it, The reel is pretty terrible and the RSI in my right wrist is giving me trouble still, very stiff.and my hands were shaking a bit from adrenalin so all in all t after a good warm up I could do better and I still wouldn't want to be recording solo fiddle for a cd just yet
No one ever told me I was a coward and I know that youse all just slag me anyhow.
[url=http://www.filefreak.com/files/745588_robnm/ZOOM0003j.MP3]ZOOM0003j.MP3[/url]
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
"bogman this was your advice to the fiddle student"
Lies and you know it. That was regarding the pitch argument, nothing to do with the OP. Now I really must go....
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Hey Will.
)
) back to playing!
no bother.
Right. - I'll discuss this with you as long as we answer each other questions and address each others points ok?
Right
"Good man yr self hugo. But I hasten to point out that I only ever mentioned a few names as a result of all the insulting belittling,and ignorant comments directed at me over the years because I hold an opinion that differs to some posters here. Remember I posted here for years before finally pulling a couple of names out of the hat to make a point. "
Ok - fair enough. I always thought your approach was -
A: You make a point
B: (Pick other .org member here) disagrees.
C:You reply with one of the 3 I mentioned in my other post eg -
I've played with __ So I'd take their opinion over yours.
I always thought that the "insulting belittling,and ignorant comments" were as a direct result of the many out of context connections you ascribed to yourself. (eg KB and metronome)
I for one cannot be fecked looking through those old posts to find out who was first. I'll take your word on it. If I was one of the offenders - I apologise, but also if I was - I obviously felt I had to.
"I also feel that its a valid point, and id actually find it easier to know ,who you play with, what you play, how long you've played how seriously you take the music, not to establish a 'position of authority' but to understand where you are "
OK - I play banjo and guitar mainly. I love the old stuff. I listen to that mainly. I've been playing trad about 10 years now I think. But I think that I sound like I've been playing 15 minutes. (which is another reason I don't respect or will ever again entertain your 35 year mantra.)
Regarding taking the music seriously, I hate that word in connection with music. I respect it very very much. More than I could ever put into words. But taking it seriously? No way. There are more important things in life. It's my switchoff from the serious stuff.
I play with people who are way feckin' better than you and me and most people I hear playing in general! - Not important really though.
I heard dow saying once he'd prefer to play with his mates than anyone else. I think it was in relation to a clip of Martin Hayes playing in a pub. It was the only thing that cantankerous little man has ever said that I agreed with. I they were crap, I don't think it would change the enjoyment that much for me. I really mean that. The music is honest and real, and a communication amongst good mates.
"Look at this thread...out of all the posters here only 2 of us actually play the fiddle." - NO - only 2 have stated it.
"The thread was about accurately tuning and playing a fiddle, something Ive spent an awful lot of time attaining over the last 17 or so years," _ JIG???? CAREFULLL NOW!!!!! The thread was about looking for an onscreen tuner.
"and Ive a long way to go in climbing this particular mountain, accepted but I have thousands of hours actually doing it. So is that not relevant to the discussion?"
- Maybe it is...The poster asked about a guitar though. I'm not a fiddle player, but my buddy who is tunes using his ears. Takes us a couple of minutes at the beginning of a session. - (This sounds SO MUCH more normal than some poor fella slaving over a piece of hardware in his room for 17 years - do you aggree????) Also. I've heard him play and I've heard you play.
"All of the most vocal opponents on this thread have not one hour experience between them? Is that totally Irrelevant? I really dont think so, do you? " - You do this all the time. This is an lie. You are lying here. You can' t expect to be taken seriously if you lie. Maybe I've misunderstood you. You do this quite often. Post something like this in what starts out to be a reasonable thread. What do you mean here? Please elaborate.
"Im quite happy to accept that will H has been playing fiddle much longer than me, and I certainly hope hes better at it than me after all those years ! but Im still willing to bet I can do things he cant do, just as he can do plenty I cant do. Life is like that , its not a competition, we all have our strong points and weak points and I can say that with confidence about any fiddler in the land. For a start I doubt there are many fiddlers who'd WANT to do what I do and who could blame them "
- Same as me on banjo - nothing to do with what I was referring to though.
"I have to be frank, yet when Im frank Im accused of self aggrandisement. " - BUT JIG - You posted samples of your playing though. Many times. So people are thinking. Who the feck does this lad think he is? I ask you now. - do they have that right?
"Its a lose lose situation." - Only for you man - I ask you again like the last post - is it* working??
(* your posting style and the way you 'discuss' these topics. I honestly am trying to help. It's only a lose, lose situation for you. Ask anyone else on the website.) Perhaps - PERHAPS you could think about it from the other side.
"I have no MO. This is who I am, Im not bluffing, posturing, boasting. Im merely pointing out what IMO are relevant facts."
Ok - I don't think you are bluffing (I did before I saw that video of you playing) posturing, boasting. Im merely pointing out what IMO are relevant facts!)
Jig - that sentence has nothing to do with what I understood as your modus operandi. I think your MO from your days as tradpiper was almost identical to that of Big tab. (EG)
State an opinion (usually a negative one).
People disagree
Well, I'm from Clare (you're not) so what the feck would you know./ I've been playing for .....etc.
I can't remember the posts exactly but I know there was something like that.
I think your MO has changed now to a more - I stand against the bullies of thesession.org therefore I'll just disagree with whatever I can.
"Your opinion for example ,>>''.Your whole "if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me" rediculously flawed argument.''>>
Its your opinion, its not a fact, It doesnt matter if everyone bar me feels that way, it makes no difference at all to me, not the slightest. My opinion is that its not a flawed argument. That's how I learn , I emulate masters, and for me its been a very successful strategy and I recomend it based on my experience of doing so. A lot of experience in a lot of fields, not just fiddle, not just music. Its part of my core philosophy. "
OK - but again man, I've listened to your tracks.
Maybe they work for others, but from the sound of your playing and D*** M***** I don't think I'd like to try a metronome. Also - Kevin Burke shares his opinion with you. Great. But you don't sound like him, so your argument of pairing yourself with him is - ridiculous.
OK - here's an example. I like taking photos. I don't use a flash. A famous photographer doesn't either. I'm sh*t. He's not. I don't lump myself in with him. You do that Jig. That's the issue. Do you accept this?
"Perhaps it is flawed... Enlighten me as to why then if you can , dont shout me down, and if, after everyone has done their very best to show me why my opinion is flawed, I still maintain my position that is my right to be a stubborn SOB."
Again - is this working for you? Again. No. People don't like stubborn people. They are feckin annoying. Do you accept this?
"And am I not free to explain why I feel it is an excellent philosophy? and if you continue to maintain your position, as is your right, fair enough, we both listened with an open mind, " -
Jesus man.This is the problem. You don't.
" is it not clear to you all, at this stage, that those methods are not working, have not worked and will not work ? after how many years? Im still here, Im not going away. , well I will be for some months soon, but you know what Im saying"
Will, that's fine. But why do you insist on going down the me and them route? Its not working for you either. I remember when I was younger I got in a fight with all of the lads in my class. I ran home to my ma and I said "They're all dicks" She said - "if that happens in life, usually, you are the one who is at fault." She was right too. Never had that experience since. I haven't let it ever happen again.
"You see, I dont feel embarrassed by this thread," - I know you don't man - I KNOW.
" Dont feel embarrassed on my behalf! jeez look in your own eye brother before trying to look in mine. "
You are forcing people to look in yours. Everytime you say who you've played with, how much experience you have and how you know as much as Kevin Burke (that last one was a joke
"No hugo, I dont see myself as a Robin hood guy LOL not at all, Im just a guy who loves the music, plays the music, loves my kids and friends and all Im about is spreading that love around a bit. The world is hideous enough with out us making it worse eh? "
Good for you. This is why I've bothered with posting here directly to you. I'm not interested in the bullies either. But you are an irritating poster. Really annoying. Did you know this? I'm not saying I don't like you or anything. Just not the way you argue a post. If we are discussing something like this in a pub, a conversation would take 2 minutes. Back to tune up - another 2 minutes - for me. (17 years for you
"I appreciate your post Hugo , thank you, but I cant accept your conditions. How could I respect myself if I did?
You are free to engage or not as you so choose. "
I will of course Will. I don't think its as serious as questioning who you are as a person or anything, or respecting yourself. I think its more important to re read what I've said about those points that is pointless in presenting on this site.
"Now whos round is it. ?"
Yours- I'm a cheapo.
**
Typed on phone. waiting for herself in the pub.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Here in the States we celebrate today as a day to give thanks.
This thread reminds me, in a roundabout way, of a lot I have to be thankful for.....
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
>> The poster asked about a guitar though. >>
No hugo, its not a guitar thread , its a fiddle thread about tuning the fiddle. read the OP.
couldn't you have broken that down into smaller chunks? it was pretty indigestible.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Re. Guitar. Sorry Will.
I got it into my head that it was. Apologies.
hehehe - no man.
You'll have to get through it.
It's as clear as pie. Now read it Mr. Black pot!
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Bogman?! <<Lies and you know it. That was regarding the pitch argument, nothing to do with the OP. Now I really must go....>> sigh
Pitch argument?! you said fiddle! YOU said it in your post. not Me. jeez some people , as soon as they find they've bitten off more than they can chew they start lashing out with verbal abuse and accusations?! do you think we cant read?
>>Putting all the rubbish aside, here's a little exercise for non pitched instrument tune players using the simple tuner Jon linked http://www.seventhstring.com/tuner/tuner.html
Play a slowish tune and hold the odd note, not an open string on* fiddle*, and see if you can keep every note within 1 cent. See if you can avoid never touching 5 cents out. Then imagine doing in in a session where other players have their parameters of intonation as well. Remembering the different 'just intonations' of the various instruments and the different skill levels of the musicians and the din of the bodhrans.
# Posted on November 23rd 2010 by bogman
So I repeat myself, you are wasting your time if you try this, its worse than useless. It is a guitar tuner, in Equal temperament. A fiddle can not be tuned let alone played with good intonation using that free inaccurate program. got that?
Is there any fiddler here who thinks anyone could tune a fiddle and get good intonation using that program?
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Erm, jig, what bogman is suggesting you try is to simply play *one fingered note* into that tuner and watch how much the pitch wanders around.
This isn't about tuning the fiddle, or even playing a scale in tune. Just play one single note and watch the pitch skitter around.
It's the nature of a bow on a string, and a finger on a fretless string: the pitch won't be a single steady tone. Instead it will waver all over the place.
Really, most trad instruments are this way--we play within a range of "good" intonation. Not perfectly spot on. Fiddle and flute are infamous for this. And it sounds fine, brilliant even, because our ears and aural brain centers aren't that finely calibrated.
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Most fiddlers I know can add and substract by 2. Assuming you are starting on the A string you want that tuner to read +2 cents for E, -2 for D and -4 for G. (if you are being silly you could try for -3.9 on the G)
Note: don't do that, do what Steve S said way up the thread.
What temperature do you usually play at ?
I have just been comparing that tuner and the one I suggested with a tuning fork. They were 0.1cents difference. What did the tuning fork give ? Well it started at 439.7 when I picked it up, but by the time I got bored it was down to 439.5. That made me interested again so I held in my hand for a few seconds and got it down to 439.4
Yawn
# Posted on November 25th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Tuning forks are renowned for inaccuracy, as you just found out. I mean if you want to play out of tune, go ahead , If its ok for you and your session to all be in tune to different things thats your right, but to suggest to a beginner who *Specifically* asked about help with his intonation, that its good advice to tune to a poor quality tuner in the wrong system of intonation is not helpful.
If anyone had said to him that he could start adding and subtracting numbers , and where he might find those numbers and why etc then Ok, its a pretty crap method IMO but it could maybe work. Only we're at the bottom of a four hundred post discussion and no one did, only now you say this to attempt to justify your self, |David and your patronising to boot ;yawn
David you were complaining you couldn't get within 10c. but you think you know what's best for Paul? You cant tune or play a fiddle? so what makes you feel everyone bar me so right and Im so wrong as you stated earlier .
When you openly say you cant tune Your OWN Instrument yet your giving advice, bad advice [ by criticising good well informed accurate technically explained advice] to someone else?! and you wish to justify that?!
Will H, I know most trad instruments are like that, and if thats what you like great, go for it. But Im sure you wouldn't be teaching your students to tune up their fiddle with that guitar software would you? Your a proud man, your proud of your accomplishments and only rightly. So all Im saying is that if someone comes to us here to ask advice, that we give them good accurate well informed advice and dont encourage bad advice merely because of a personal grudge.
Im not pointing the finger at you , theres quite a few who muddied the water and tried to deceive, to pretend, to posture , My advice on this thread to a learner fiddle player is sound and clearly explained .
Its not just the posters here, theres plenty lurking. This argument in its various strands has been going on a while now and a lot of us here are very bored of it, though of course as we all know excitement, a bit of a fight some action etc brings a crowd.
If anyone doesnt yet understand then reread the thread, do some research. buy some books and read them .
For example Will you might well have Bart Hopkins book; musical instrument design. Brilliant book, full of great simple projects perfect for classroom and with detailed but not overbearing explanations. If you want to get seriously into the subject then Get Arthur Benades book Fundamentals of musical acoustics.
Im happy to debate and learn but please let it be informed debate not rabble rousing and invective. Is this site really the place for it? Is this what we want visitors to thesession.org to find? Do we really a, as a community want to be the laughing stock of serious traditional musicians ?
Despite all our grievances, disagreements etc , all the words said in haste and later regretted , today is a new day, we are not obliged to continue bickering amongst ourselves, we are all free to consider our actions in the light of how we wish to represent ourselves and the greater community. How we wish to relate to each other.
I dont want conflict Im a peaceful guy, I dont bear grudges for they weigh down the soul.
I genuinely hope that if a majority of us feel the same way we can restrain our worse excesses, stand up for one another, not turn blind eye to bullying and abuse, not tolerate in our presance bullying and abuse. and maintain some form of civilised decorum on this, a site which in which everyone of us must self police. For no one else will do it for us. there is no Guardee going to jump in here at the last minute. Jeremy has his hands full without feeling obliged to clear up after our party or pitched battles!
Let us all be responsible for our own actions and not blame them on a mythical 'other'' there is no 'other' we are all one. Look in the mirror and who do you see?
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I give up.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Ever considered running for US Congress?
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Will H
When you've tuned your own A to the A you're hearing in the session and then you've tuned your other strings to each other and you're perfectly in tune with yourself, do you ever notice a discrepancy between your open D, G and E strings with other instruments that are tuned in equal temperament? ie, a piano, piano accordion say, or a guitar, bouzouki/mandola/cittern that someone has tuned with a tuner. Do you ever find that you play in tune just fine on the A string and with other fingered notes on the other strings and then when you play an open string it just isn't quite right? Ever tempted to sharpen your D's and G's a bit so they will fit?
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Twisty
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Twisty
Ever been tempted to more than one account on thesession.org?
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by TaoCat
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
er no taocat, but I've lurked enough on here to wonder who else you think I might be. It's an honest question actually, and I don't think it's been covered, although I do admit I skimmed through some of the more vitriolic bits so I might have missed something.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Twisty
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Well, it is suspicious when a low-poster comes on to offer Will H. tuning advice. If I'm mistaken, my apologies.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by TaoCat
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Advice? I thought it was a question.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Of course twisty, I play with a piper, I play with a banjo player, flute, whistle etc etc I adjust my intonation to match, but our unisons and fiths are normally dead on. I cant be arsed playing fiddle with the box. I then play an instrument closer to ET, like banjo, or guitar .. Fiddle is my fifths instrument. not my first!
I play with a pianist but he tunes his electric to JI, in the correct key. this is the 21st C dude., Besides its only since 1917 that any piano was actually tuned to ET. befor that they just thought they were tuning ET.
I say to any fiddler, *especially* beginers who will be playing alone, get a peterson for 60squid its the cheapest investment you could make bar good stings which are about the same price. Padraig O'Keefes bow was not so hot, any old fiddle with strings will do at a push, IF its in tune.
Tuning the fiddle is not something that anyone can do accurately immediately, It takes time to train the ear up. Anyone who knows anything about the brain and its ear knows that. So as to have a chance for someone like paul to actually make music on a fiddle on his own out there the best advice I feel I could give him is get an accurate fiddle tuner. Tune your ears and your fiddle will follow.... if you see what I mean.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Twisty, as you said, I tune either my A string or D string to a fixed pitch instrument, and then tune the other open strings to fifths by ear. I'd rather have my fiddle as well in tune as I can get it, regardless of whether it's off a skooch to some equal tempered instrument. A fiddle just sounds better when it's in tune to itself.
So no, I don't adjust my open strings to better match another instrument. For sessions, it all blends in anyway.
But I *do* pay attention to my fingered intonation to match other instruments, especially if just two or three of us are playing. It's common practice for fiddlers to tweak their fingers to match a keyboard, free reed, or fretted instrument, since those instruments can't do anything to better match the fiddle. I also do this to blend better with a flute--little micro adjustments to match pitch. The longer I play with any particular fluter, the easier it is to know where their intonation lands on certain notes, and in certain keys/modes. Of course, a good fiddler makes those micro adjustments a fair amount, even when playing solo, to account for changing keys/modes throughout a set. (E.g., the first finger, 2nd string "B" note is different in G major than it is in E major.)
The really important thing in all this--and contrary to what I consider to be bad advice from Spellbreaker--is to use a reliable tuning source *ONLY* for one string when tuning the fiddle, and then tune the other strings in fifths, from that initial string. *Don't* use *any* sort of tuner to tune the other strings. Instead, just use your ear. Learn to hear the beats--the flutter and wahs of strings not quite in tune to one another. If you can't do this yet, find a good fiddler to show you what to listen for and how to fine-tune your open strings to fifths. I teach all of my students to tune this way, and regardless of age or ability, they all pick it up within a few weeks and are tuning accurately and consistently within a month or two. It's not difficult, and you don't need a pricey tuner (or even a cheap tuner) to do it.
A few people that came to me for lessons after learning elsewhere were trying to use various tuners in the way the OP seems aimed at. I discouraged it, and finally told one guy to just put the tuner away (it was calibrated to just intonation) and use his ears. In a week, he went from playing out of tune most of the time, to playing completely in tune all the time. He now uses that tuner to get his open A, and nothing else. And he sounds great.
Hope this helps, despite the tsunami of ranting off-the-wall and off-the-mark "advice" from the other WIll.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
P.S.
Twisty, I also play guitar, mandolin, and banjo. A fuller answer to your question has to include the fact that even the highest caliber fretted instruments have intonation issues--certain notes that will not blend as well as others, *because* they're set up for equal temperament. So most of us who play fretted instruments end up tweaking our tuning to suit the situation (what other instruments are we playing with, what keys/modes will likely predominate, etc.).
5-string banjo, in open G tuning, is a well-known case. On even the best banjos, with compensated bridges and carefully laid frets, you face a choice--tune the B string to match the G, or tune the B string to match the D. As close as it might get, you can't have the B perfectly in tune with both the G and D strings at the same time.
In short, it's not the fiddler who needs to tweak his tuning, but the equal tempered instruments. It's not at all unusual for guitarists in standard tuning to leave their B string a tad flat for playing in G/Em, and to kick it up a hair if they know they're going into A and E.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Thanks for your reply Mr Harmon
I just find myself in conflict sometimes playing a perfectly tuned instrument, tuned in fifths to itself. It's easy, as you say to adjust fingered notes to differences but then it can be almost worse to go to an open G say, because my G, tuned perfectly to my D which is tuned perfectly to my A is so flat compared to the equally tuned instruments I'm playing with. Even the open D played against a DADGAD guitarist tuned with a tuner can really beat to my ear, which causes a bit of a dilemna for me. Be in tune with myself or be in tune with other instruments? Compromise somehow, and tune to slightly narrower fifths? Do you ever hear what I'm talking about?
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Twisty
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Cross posted, I suspect. See if my P.S. above answers your question.
And yes, I do hear beats, especially with guitars, and it bothers me too. Which is one reason I enjoy sessions without guitars. I'm lucky that our local guitar player takes all this into account, tweaks her tuning, and often plays only partial chords to lessen the problem.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Hang on will, through out this thread Ive said to use his ears. from my second post. however he asked, so get your accusations right dude. Dont want to play nice,your still playing power trips? or was it your genuine mistake? I hope so.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Jig, yes, I know you've said to use the ears, but you repeatedly insist the peterson tuner is the way to go, all the way down to your previous post.
It's not. We can get a reliable A 440 from any decent tuner, many of them 1/10 the price of the peterson. And we don't need a tuner at all for a fiddle at sessions--just take the A of the fixed pitch instrument, or that one A from any instrument and tune your strings to yourself. Learning to do this without a tuner is more straightforward and efficient than dinking with a tuner. If the OP "needs" a source for an A440, he obviously has access to a computer and can get that A tone from any number of free online sources.
I'm sorry Jig, but you waste a lot of time and energy projecting your own significant problems onto other people. It's not fun and I wish you'd stop, but given your years at it here, I won't be holding my breath.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Oh well then Mr. H. It's their fault, haha. I'm glad you said you've heard it too, because I tell you, it is bothersome to me. I do find myself sneaking my D and G up a bit at times to make things fit a bit better, especially in tunes that use a lot of open strings, and then I'm tuning back to perfect until I can't handle the discrepancy anymore and then I'm sneaking those lower strings up a bit again.
I just wondered how other fiddlers handled that conundrum.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Twisty
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Twisty, one more thing to consider is that the most recent research continues to show that our sense of pitch is subjective--that is, each of us likely hears intonation slightly differently than the next person. Most of the time, it's a small enough difference to not matter much. But age, exposure to high volumes, and a scary variety of diseases and disorders can really mess with our ability to discern pitch. I can't tell you how many times I've had another fiddler ask me for an A, only to listen to them miss the mark entirely when tuning to me, and then happily start playing as though they're in tune. In that case, one of us is certainly hearing something different than the other.
Lots of interesting reading on this in Oliver Sack's book "Musicophilia."
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Well, you know, for my ear, the best sessions are those without equal tempered instruments.....
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
And the best threads on thesession are those with equal-tempered posters
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Reverend
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Someone quite a while ago said they thought this thread was dead, and I have come up with a theory. I think it really is dead, and is merely shambling along, in a hideous approximation of life. Some of us, in good faith, have continued posting, and treating it like it is alive, but we are only endangering our sanity by doing so. In the movies, the only way to really deal with zombies is by running as fast as you can in the other direction, which I will do now.
Exit, stage left...
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Well the thread is at least brain dead but still seems to have a pulse.
Fiddlers, barsetts for the best part especially when it comes to tuning and ears.
My girl friend is a fairly accomplished fiddler, if she dose say so herself (I'd have to agree mind, but don't tell her I said so; ) She has a stunning ear for the slightest wobble between notes and isn't afraid to announce that x or y is out of tune. Often she'll point out that my banjo is slightly out before I notice. We're not talking much but the merest baw hair.
I usually defer to her judgment although she isn't right 100% of the time, sometimes she gets it wrong if only occasionally and usually when she's had a few. Famously 6 months back or so after a few bottles of wine we headed out to her local session where she announced that my guitar was out; by a flipin semi tone :confused:, I get the tuner out (I'd just tuned to her in the house) bang on ish. It wasn't until a little later when her pals came in and we had to retuned that she conceded the point and then only grudgingly. For which I get the blame (being the accompanist on that occasion I just took it on the chin as befits an accompanist), when she challenged me as to why I hadn't been more forceful regarding the point, all I could say was that she was usually right and so I gave her the benefit of the doubt, I didn't say: to avoid a reenactment of the gunfight at the not so OK coral (strong willed and stubborn, thats fiddlers IME).
I'm sure she could well better + or - 5 cents of accuracy but then she dose look after her ears and her accuracy is there for anyone to hear, and with her mega fiddle bow and good technique she can be heard at some distance. But having said that she is an exception not the rule. I've had a couple of long and longish musical relationships with fiddles and whilst they undoubtedly have good ears they don't seem as pedantic as her indoors, but still quite stroppy where tuning is concerned mind.
So I'd say, grudgingly; fiddlers do have a more acutely developed sense of tune than those of us playing fretted or fixed tuned instruments. Nuf said.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Spellbreaker (wicked hacker still owes me a pint :d ) we have one thing in common, at least, but I'll let you work that out for yourself? Also they say there are 5º of separation and until this thread I'd have quite happily pointed out that between us there are 2 people, but you gave something away in this thread which now leads me to believe there is now only 1, see if you can figure out the who and the where ; ). So, and I could be wrong, this person I think we have in common is someone who I respect and really quite like despite us being very different sorts of people. For the love of his friendship and the one thing you and I hold in common, I'd tender the following observation.
You have to learn when to let sleeping dogs lie.
I think you need to apologise to Hugo, he's forgiven (with caveats, but acceptance of these is how relationships evolve for the better) and held out his hand to you, you want to accept but to also continue in the same vein, you can't have it both ways! Which is what I infer from your comments above, to my mind those comments effectively reject his amnesty, which I took to be very heart felt. Something tells me you need to worry less about intertweb chit chat and focus on your wider circle.
Words statements etc are for ever being taken out of context, sometimes accidently sometimes purposely, don't chase them, don't give those that would lead you a merry dance or those who mistake your words and intent, the opportunity. You'll only end up chasing your tail, as you've been doing above. This freekin tuner of your ffs, I seem to remember the lydian mode thread epic (where I claimed a pint) also featured this dammed tuner at some point.
Lie sleeping dogs.
FWIW, I had a great tune to myself last night, the banjo shack was truly rockin. I surprised myself and feel great today as a result. I also took the opportunity to test my tuning capabilities with my iPhone's tuner as I don't have a tuner with me at the moment. The iPhone tuners is crap but I was within + - a few cents of bang on ish, I didn't adjust my tuning as it sounded good to me and I think thats the point, don't think even the girlfriend would have pulled me up last night.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Cheers Solid,
LOL
Ive been chatting with Hugo, I felt it more appropriate to do so off board.
You notice I offered the same to everyone ; http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/26040/comments#comment551259
Iphone tuner is crap? you dont have the peterson App? useless for fiddle but fine for ET
Exactly, if it sounds good, and thats the point. If this guy, Paul , who has no access to a teacher, wants to play the fiddle he has an awful lot to contend with, he doesn't want to take 15yrs. he doesn't need to go through many of the Mistakes I have. He needs to train his ear to hear.
But as you say, fiddlers develop their ear over many years. he expressed , to me, the concern that hes getting no younger, and none of us are. If there's any short cut Ive found, its using a good tuner.
Its not essential, I played most of my life without one and I can tune by ear better than I can with the Peterson, but its good enough, it makes life much much easier in noisy sessions ,a clip on tuner. As we all know.
Im quite happy to let sleeping dogs lie Solid, but thats not the case is it. they come along and' kick' this sleeping dog. spread lies , malicious rumours, innuendo and I dont think anyone should have to put up with that, keep your 'hands' to yourself lads.
I had a lot of arguments with one fiddler on this board. out of the 3 ive heard briefly, hes the only one, by far, who had any guts to his playing IMO . Since then I met him, we sat for a few hours in session, hes a nice friendly guy and Id like to feel its the start of a long friendship. I respect his playing and ability. Doesnt mean we will always agree, doesnt mean we wont argue.
solid, I thank you for your advice I will bear your words in mind. But we are who we are, yes we can change, but that change has to be heartfelt. Im not going to pretend, on an internet board, to be who Im not. I dont need to .
Im not going to defer in a disagreement to someone on the strength of their 'trump' ''Ive been playing longer than you have'', Maybe they have, maybe not. on the strength of their ''Im better than you',' maybe they are maybe there not. Further more I dont expect anyone to do so either. Fair enough?
Let us discuss and argue on the strengths and merit of our individual argument. Not on the strength of numbers!!! because majority mean SFA on this board.
Now if I were on a serious Pipers forum, with a large group Identifiable professional pipers I would consider that the consensus is probably correct. But this forum is not that. EG You can count the number of Pipers active here on one hand !!.
If posters here feel that the only way they can maintain their supposed position of Authority, of superiority, is by insults, innuendo, blatant mis representation , telling me i 'have serious problem' blah blah blah what does that tell you about the strength of their argument?
Yes, If it sound good,it is good. But for a beginning fiddler, with no previous experience, thousand of miles from the nearest session,no teacher, how many years do you think it will take him to sound good? to just tune his fiddle well?
My advice is simple, get the best[peterson] tuner available. Tune your fiddle.
learn to do it with this accuracy by ear as you put time in.
Learn to play in harmony with a D drone .Learn to pay by ear.
Enjoy your music and your life, this is not a trial run. This is the real thing If your reading this you are probably one of the luckiest people ever born. , make the best of your time here on Earth. It wont last forever.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
FOS
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
This is still alive? Christ on a bike.
You see, Will, the problem isn't that you have an opinion that lots of people here disagree with. The main problem is the arsey, confrontational way in which you argue that opinion. My crack about running for Congress was directed at your accusations of lying, misrepresentation, innuendo, and so on. That's standard US election modus operandi -- accuse anyone who disagrees with you of lying, misrepresentation, bullying and so on (oh, yeah, and of being a Communist).
You need to express yourself online in a way that doesn't make you sound like a penis, which I figure you're probably not in "real life." Screaming that you're being bullied and that everyone is lying doesn't achieve that. Nor does stubbornly insisting that you know the one and only way to learn and play trad music and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and an idiot.
I've been riding horses for about 20 years and I have found that arrogant tw*ts who think they know everything there is to know about horses and are always right are endemic. And annoying. I wish I had a pound for every one I met. I'd be able to buy me some regulators.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
no TSS, it was dead till you stuck your oar in to stir it up a bit
So youve been riding horses 2o yrs how would you fare then if you gave some helpful advice and 20 folk who've never ridden a horse in their lives came in and told you what crap advice you were giving? Then told the guy that he should sit facing the tail and put his hands in the stirrups then told you, you cant even ride! and then at the end of the day this mass bunch of ignorance start going on to you about your confrontational manner, your accusations that these guys cant ride, that when you said riding facing the tail is bad advice, they give out to you!?and theres loads of them all insulting you accusing you of being a liar, congratulating each other about how clever they were, like a bunch of laughing hyenas and jackles snapping hoping to get a bite in. And how the fact that you been riding 20yrs is irrelevant and slagging you for even mentioning it..... and telling you you wouldn't know the arse end of a horse if you saw it. All the while justifying their atrocious advice despite you being able to clearly show useing your lifetime yrs of study that theyre talking out of their holes . Then it becomes a discussion amongst the horde about you and your 'problems' and |Blah blah blah...
Now your pointing the finger at me! LOL give it a break lassy.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yes Will, the only problem with that analogy is Emily can ride a horse. You can't play the fiddle.
If it wasn't for that your analogy would be sound.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
And if you are going to be patronising at least learn how to spell "Lassie".
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Is that so no cause? how interesting...
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yes, jig, that's so. I've never seen Emily on a horse (or off a horse for that matter) but if her horsemanship were as bad as your fiddling in those famous clips, she'd have broken her neck a long time ago.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
It's not really such a good analogy. No offense, Will. I just read it as tit for tat. I've missed most of this discussion; mainly because I gather it probably has only a few well thought out comments (regarding intonation & tuning) which were already made on another thread in the past.
Of course, by not reading most of the comments, it may well be a goldmine & I'll never know.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
A goldmine? No, I wouldn't say it's a goldmine. But if you need something to fertilize your garden in the spring, come back and dig through here.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Is that so Jon? how interesting
no ben, no tit 4 tat, thats foolish , an eye for an eye and everyone is blind.
And if thats how you do live your life as many do sadly, poor people. , what makes them think they still have eyes to see.... blinded by their own bitterness, twisted by hate frustration and anger?! Even people who can be quite clever in some regards don't realise its a stupid self defeating strategy and they turn their own hate on them selves and family. Doubt they have any real friends, all left long ago eh? Sad. We all need to make a choice here, I think this quote from the Dalai Lama is pretty cool;
>>The compassionate mind is very important. Fear, anger, jealousy are based on a self-centered attitude. By developing a sense of caring for others' well-being your heart automatically opens and that brings transparency, straightforwardness and honesty, which leads to friendship. We are social animals, and one individual's survival relies entirely on the rest of the community.<<
and of course the communities survival rests on the decisions of its members. Just like mankind is eating our own support system, destroying the trees that create the air we breath. Its individual decisions to 'tow the line' keep their mouth shut for fear, just fear ..
Its all individual decisions and our individual decisions collectively add up to the communities decisions.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Back to the bad old days of threads getting totally ruined by an individual. Who in their right mind would bother reading through this rubbish.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by bogman
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
It is probably slightly ironic in this context that the Dutch word 'spelbreker' (pronounced Spellbreaker) is a person who ruins a plan or an event by his contribution.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Wow, he's off on a tear now. Got the Dalai Lama in there and everything. Is that something he said while you were playing tunes with him back in Clare, Jig?
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Off topic & ever deeper
I'm sure the Dalai Lama would appreciate a bit of sociable banter. Easy, Will. Deep breathes.
Yoga ~ Sun Salutations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBc5vquG33U
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
I'm just wondering how I would deal with someone who said they had been riding for 20 years yet told me I should sit facing the tail.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
It's the 20 folk (or mass bunch of ignorance) who never rode before saying sit facing the tail, etc. to the person w/20 years of riding. It's one of the problems in that post. It's a rambly, stream of consciousness rant.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Ben Steen
...
I suppose if you are facing rear it would be easier to fertilize the garden.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
A bit of a persecution complex on display as well, I think.
Reminds me a bit of PARRY, the old AI program, actually. Makes sense as you read from word to word - the sentences scan and they contain references to other things in the conversation, but when you try to figure out what the whole thing means, you get nothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARRY
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Is that so Jon? how interesting....
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Uh, oh. He's broken. Reboot the jigbot!
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Yes Ben, I was making a different and perhaps unduly unkind analogy which I now regret. Thing is, I think I know people like spellbreaker and could probably have a silly argument with him about 0.1 cents over a pub table without more exitement than one of us stomping off and then have a different silly argument the next day. In this instance I know he is wrong and would have know he was wrong before I ever picked up an instrument - read sat on a horse (which I have done exactly three times, the first time as a small boy, on the saddle in front of a teenage girl who did not understand the male anatomy)
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Er, delete the comma after 'small boy'
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by David50
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
Is that so David, how interesting....
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: looking for an onscreen tuner
This is actually much better. Let's don't reboot the jigbot, after all.
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky