Yep, "A Handful of Earth", a great album. Westlin Winds, which is surely Burns (he called, Composed in August) & Gaughan at their best.
My all time favorite Gaughan album is his first, "No More Forever", just has an energy to it and it must have turned a few heads in 1972 or 3. The version of "The Green Linnet", just great.
I rebelled against folk music as a kid as the old man was a folky. As a teenager I was after a recording of "a handful of earth" but when I went round to my pals he'd lent it out and recorded "no more forever", that was me hooked.
Dick is a legend and I think Handful of Earth is one of his best albums. The version of 'Song for Ireland" on it was actually the first recording of it. I saw him earlier this year and before he sang "Now Westlin Winds' he said it is one of his favorite songs ever written.
I saw the other day on the Whelan's (the Dublin pub and venue) that Dick and Andy Irvine are doing a gig together there in February. That is certainly not to be missed!
No More Forever is really a great record - I love how you can listen to it and hear no difference between the old Napoleonic songs and the modern socialist marches. It feels like they're all part of the same tradition for Dick, where a lot of singers sing modern songs very differently to the old ones.
And it doesn't hurt that his singing is just incredibly right on that record.
And Paddy Tunneys version of Craigie Hills is just sublime as well. Dick is the man and his message never fails to strike straight at the heart, well, except for the ruling classes and bankers who don't have one.
Gemini - have you thought about listening to the song instead of just copying the nearest "transcription" from the World-Famous Internet Thingy? Or at least reading what you post before you post it?
"Air-blue sky"? What on earth might that mean? "E'er-blue sky" more likely.
"Saw one touch the bow"? No, sorry, you couldn't make that mistake yourself. If you listened to the song you'd hear it's "Someone touched the bow".
I know, I know - "But Jon, laziness is what the internet is for!"
Yeah, but do you have to remind me?
And also for a mate of mine. He took his wife to a Mary Black concert and made her sit in the row behind. Just in case Mary might notice him and think that he was "attached".
King Dick wins hands down I'm afraid! Though not mad on the lyrics of the above...Seamie O Dowd (and Kris Drever on a good day, amongst others) is proving a worthy successor to the throne. If in doubt, have a listen to his version of "Turn the Corner" by Thom Moore. At last...Our own Westlin Winds...
Listening to the song now and Dick definitely sings, "Saw one touch the bow". Has always made perfect sense to me. I don't have a version as sung by Phil Colclough though. Certainly there are other differences between the lyrics as posted by Gemini and what Dick sings. For example he sings the 2nd and 3rd verses the other way round. It is not worth getting all bothered about though.
Ahh - I see where Jon has gone wrong. He was listening to Mary Black's version. Schoolboy error. She does indeed sing, "Someone touched the bow". EIther makes sense but if in doubt go with what Mr Gaughan does. Follow that rule in life and you can't go too wrong.
Actually, I don't think I've ever heard Mary Black's version. Gaughan's is the one for me, I've just about got the thing memorized.
Phonetically, "someone" and "saw one" are realized the same when you sing them, unless you're some hyper-precise articulator (which Gaughan is not...maybe Mary Black is). But "saw one touch the bow" - as a lyric, it doesn't work for me. You don't listen with your eyes.
And, sorry "air-blue sky" is just dumb. Air isn't blue, sky is already air - it's like saying "the water-blue ocean.
I wouldn't get too hung up on the "definitive" lyric as I don't think it exists to be honest. Like a player of tunes the singer make the song their own putting their own unique spin on it and pushing the angles that talk to them, that perhaps another singer would place different emphasis on.
I can promise you that Dick sings saw one. Guaranteed. The fact that his own website says he does, a website he personally has put together should be proof enough.
Ages ago I tried to work out if anyone actually sang the original Kavanagh words to Raglan Road. My googling of this issue served to educate me as to worralorracrap the internet contains. I did find out that there were some plausible interpretations, some ludicrously nonsensical ones and few, if any, faithful ones. Folk musicians seem to have this gene that stops them copying anything exactly.
Jon, Dick G definately sings "saw one", never thought anything else.
It makes *pefect* sense as a lyric and is a far finer choice than "someone".
The song is an informal set of fleeting reminisciences, jumping from one image to the next, not a narrative.
The verse in question has the singer saying: drinking in pubs with old fiddlers ... (I) 'saw one touch the bow. which perfcetly cpatures the pattern of normal speach, particularly when recalling memories with a strong emotional reverence.
In fact the same device is used in another verse:
Singing songs to pass the time away
*Watched the Galway salmon run*
Once again the "I" in the phrase about the salmon is dropped, which beautifully enhances the emotional intensity of the phrase: it is like the singer can't stop the memories flooding back.
In fact you may notice that the word "I" does not appear in the first three verses of the song. In contrast "I" is used, markedly so, throught the final verse which makes it stand out in contrast to the rest of the piece. You will note that the last verse is different in character: it is not a reminiscience of sensory experience but an expression of what the writer saw underlying those experiences.
The poetry in this song is wonderful, I don't see how anyone can imagine that "someone" rather than "saw one" fits in with the overall language and style of the song. Although I can imagine how "someone" might have msiheard the phrase in that manner: as you point out yorself "someone" sounds like "saw one" and could easily be misheard.
Of course this doesn't matter very much, except for the fact that you came out with a rather patronising, unprovoked assault on Gemini. I suggest that before you leap down someone's throat in such a manner again that you first (a) consider that it might be yourself that is mistaken; and (b) that even if it is the other person who is mistaken they still deserve to be treated with some respect.
Jon:
> unless you're some hyper-precise articulator (which Gaughan is >not...
That may well be true, but there are at least two scots posters here well familiar with edinburgh dialect who are certain that Dick sings "saw one". I'd suggest that such individuals are more likely to be more familar with Dick's idiomatic articulation than people who have less contact with folk from edinburgh.
And for what it is work Luke Kelly, who is often credited with very precise diction, cleraly sings "saw one".
Of course people can sing what they like. I only sing in the hosue, but there are songs where I've made small changes, deliberate or otherwise. What I found more disagreeable was the tenor of certain earlier remarks in this thread.
Okay, this has definitely gotten out of hand. As for the lyric, listening to the Luke Kelly recording, it's possible that he sings it as "saw one touch the bow" - although phonetically, it's still ambiguous. The two are realized the same. Try it some time - try to sing both lines, and you'll find that the movement of your lips to close the bilabial for "some one" is almost exactly the same as the movement to pronounce the "w" of "saw one". In the former, the lips meet, in the latter they almost meet. Any singer familiar with microphones avoids "popping" the bilabials ("popping the p"), so you'll hear about the same sound. So it could be either, and apparently the latter is what many hear.
That's a very unfortunate lyric. "Someone touched the bow" - highlights a moment that everyone has had, in a vary particular context. We were in the bar, someone played a tune that caught our attention, and that is a moment worth remembering. In this context "touched the bow" is a nice piece of synecdoche. The anonymity of the fiddler is suitable here - when you hear a tune in a bar, and you're on the other side of the room, it's the tune that matters. The fiddler is a universal - it could have been any of us, in any bar. That's good writing.
On the other hand "saw one touch the bow" - suddenly the whole line has changed. Now I'm sitting in front of the fiddler, and "touch the bow" is now literal. I saw one of those fiddlers touch his bow - a sort of gesture - and then play a reel. Now the anonymity is carelessness. "One of the fiddlers" - I was looking right at him, I saw his hand grasp the bow, it's a particular guy, but I don't care enough about him to give him his name. That's vague.
In one, I know that the writer of the lines and the singer of the song has a place and a time in mind, and I have another place and time in mind, and for each of us, the meaning of that moment is the same. It's as close together as two minds can come, it's what poetry and song are for.
The other is a cartoon, a parody of a song. The writer draws a box and labels it "pub" and puts a stick figure of a fiddler in it, and says "you are here". It just doesn't work.
If I heard that line, I couldn't hear the song. It would go straight on to the heapof plastic Paddy pub songs for me - stuff people sing to feel Irish, not because it means something.
So there's a more specific accounting for my objection to the lyrics as posted. They're lousy lyrics - one simply change eviscerates the song.
Now, as for my response to Gemini, that's another matter. Robotically copying the lyrics from some random site, lyrics that someone posted probably in about 1995 and have been mindlessly copied from site to site ever since, is pointless. Yes, my response was patronizing. That's the only appropriate response to a senseless vomiting up of content without any thought or contribution. Clearly "Gemini" didn't put a moment's thought into what he (or she) flung up on the wall here, and he (or she) deserves about as much consideration as (s)he gives.
Sorry Jon, you are so often right on this site but, in this instance it would be best to just draw a line under it. For my part I have always only heard it as, "Saw one". Dick clearly sings it as thus and says he does. Apparently Luke Kelly does too. By the sounds of it Mary Black has opted for your choice of words. I am not sure what need there is to over analyse it. It is fairly straight forward. You misheard Dick Gaughan's version. No harm in that.
That's a well thought out and explained opinion, even if I disagree with it and think that the anonymity is still kept by the 'one' being part of a group of 'fiddlers' who love to play in 'old pubs'.
Jon, you said this
"Saw one touch the bow"? No, sorry, you couldn't make that mistake yourself. If you listened to the song you'd hear it's "Someone touched the bow".
Its been clearly pointed out to you by a number of posters that in fact its *you* heard incorrectly. Which as you point out is very easily done, and I know for my own experience .
Its not just the internet by the way, there are plenty of published song books with appalling misrepresented lyrics Such as;
A hairy ass fair, instead of ; An old Horse fair.
But instead of simply apologising, you compound your original error. Sigh. Just looking at the lyrics its obvious that there is a clear pattern; 'saw' .
As far as e'er and air, well you go to extreme lengths to justify your mishearing as phonetic similarities. well the similarity is far stronger here. So perhaps instead of aggressively putting other posters down you might reconsider your own position in this discussion
Well, I'm done with it, anyway. Didn't want to just leave it hanging, but that's all I've got to say on the matter.
Actually, it was interesting to think about exactly why the "saw one touch the bow" seemed so weak and flabby a line to me. It would never have occcurred to me that anyone would hear the song that way until I read the robopost of the lyrics, but having considered what the two lines would mean, I think I've got a new example of the difference between good and bad writing.
2 cents worth ~ I've copied/typed lyrics, for our singers, on a number of songs. These are on my laptop ...
"Saw one touch the bow"
&
"... all in your e'er blue sky."
Cyn's the singer, not myself, so it is she who chooses the words. I am merely her scribe. 98% sure she learnt it from Dick Gaughan's singing.
It’s “Salmon touch the bow.” “Bow” meaning “bent fishing rod” in the idiosyncratic strain of the Irish spoken in the wild corridor between Croom and Kilfinny.
And later in the song, it’s “Watched the Galway someone run.” Just who is this running “Galway someone?” The Galway Girl of country-pop fame.
I ask you friend, what’s a fella to do?
’Cause the ice was black and her hair was blue.
Since I've come back from frittering away a fair few minutes looking at the various versions of these lyrics available via a Google search to find that you are, after all, still discussing it, I might as well point out that those sites which include the information that the copyright is held by David Platz Music Inc also quote lyrics which agree with Jon. In addition, in the first verse they replace "saw Black Head" with "soar Black Head", which seems rather clumsy to me, but just about ok since there's no punctuation anyway.
I don't see any reason, though, to expect that (modern) song lyrics will be "good" writing, and if singers choose to change them, for better or worse, most of the time it probably won't matter. It just provides another "someone's wrong on the internet" opportunity - I really appreciated the link to that which you posted a while ago, Jon, thanks.
Love me some xkcd, s.m.s. And thanks for the backup...
But I do expect lyrics to be good - great, even. I've spent too much time with great writers, some of whom you might have heard of (Andrew Calhoun, Dave Carter) and some of whom you'll never hear of (Ben Gilde, Keith Baich, Claire Bard, Stefan Gibson) to expect anything less.
And as a some-time singer - not a good one, by any means, but I like songs too much not to sing them once in a while - I don't understand why you'd sing a song that isn't great. Life's too short for single-buttocked songwriting.
Was a very tricky one to pick up from a Robin Williamson old scratchy recording. nowadays I just do a google search! brilliant. The hours I spent on this song... and what does it all mean anyhow?! feck it, who cares its a brilliant piece of music.
I spent a lot of time a few years ago listening to Rai, all sung in Arabic and French. still love it and Ive no idea what they're singing about.
But you see it doesnt matter what the original song was, what its melody or words are, thats not how Aural traditions work. The Authority is the singer and player, not the composer or transcriber.
Jig, have you never heard of Mondegreens? Their existence somewhat undermines your belief that 'The Authority is the singer and player, not the composer or transcriber'.
That, jig, is exactly the worst thing about the internet. It's a brilliant producer of pathetic apathy. Learn the song? Nah, I'll just get it off the internet....
"thats not how Aural traditions work"
I can only assume that the irony here is intentional, and you're smarter than you let on. You've been pulling our collective leg all this time, haven't you?
As for the meaning, it's not hard to get started:
Cam' ye o'er frae France? Cam' ye doon by Lunnon?
Saw ye Geordie Whelps and his bonnie woman?
Were ye at the place ca'd the Kittle Hoosie?
Saw ye Geordie's grace, riding on a goosie?
Did you come over from France? Did you come down to London?
Did you see young King George with his hot chick?
Did you go to the brothel?
Did you see his Majesty shtupping the whore known as "the Goose".
It goes on in that vein. Again, Gaughan's recording is the one for me.
Ha, have you tried to notate the words from The Dick Gaughan recording without doing exactly what you just condemn me for doing? how long did it take and how accurate were you!?
You just cut and paste those lines from the internet! LOL. You got the translation from the internet too. tut tut.
As I said I spent hours at that song rewind, rewind, rewind, and I got 3/4 right. Try accurately transcribing a song in a language you dont understand, say Irish see how far you get. You wont get very far I assure you.
>>Mondegreens?<< of course Geoff I described a classic version in my post above. Thats my point. The singer is the authority of the song he sings. You might well say, 'he has it wrong' and in your opinion perhaps he has. In my example above I certainly think he has it wrong . In reference to the original song or tune perhaps he has . But thats the whole underlying fluidity of the Aural tradition. Things are not fixed according to a specified text. Despite what authoritarians might have to say, the singer and player of the tune, sings or plays it as he chooses, that is his or her right and this is a fundamental underlying aspect of the tradition that is missed more and more these days of recording.
Actually jig, that translation of the chorus is mine, although the original source is Gaughan - he sang it in Portland years ago, and explained some of the references before he sang it.
"Try accurately transcribing a song in a language you dont understand, say Irish see how far you get. You wont get very far I assure you"
Of course I won't. And since I don't speak Irish, I'd have no business trying to transcribe a song in Irish, let alone sing in Irish. What kind of a fool would sing a song they don't understand?
Jon, sorry, I didn't explain myself sufficiently clearly there. I'm looking at song-writing (not that I've ever done any) in particular as distinct from writing in general; poetry as distinct from prose perhaps. So although I think you're right about the correct version of this particular set of lyrics (even though I much prefer Dick Gaughan's singing to Mary Black's), I'm not sure that the pre-mutation versions of songs in general can be determined by assessing grammar and syntax! Lyrics can work as lyrics witrhout being good (correct) writing, maybe (e.g. saw/soar in the first verse) - which I meant to convey by putting quotation marks round "good". There are also plenty of songs which I personally think are awful both ways and which, if I sang, I wouldn't even consider. But they get sung.
I'm not sure I've made a better job of explaining myself this time - I know what I mean, anyway!
You're stating that it's OK for singers to garble the lyrics of songs and pass their misinterpretations on to others because that somehow fits your erroneous understanding of the oral tradition?
So where did you get the transcription you put up above? by ear? or from the net?
Secondly do you sing the song? do you think I shouldn't have sung it for years because I didnt know what it was about that Im a fool for doing so? you think I care!? LOL.
Did me no harm , on the contrary its a great song to sing.
You think anyone would understand what the song was about without the historical /academic research gone into it? you think you would without Dick to explain it?
So you didn't transcribe the song by ear did you, you got it from the internet or from a book. Exactly the behaviour you've been preaching against isnt it...cut and paste...
My erroneous understanding of the Oral? or Aural tradition? Which do you mean?
Are you familiar with the A Lords 'the singer of tales'? . Do you sing ? you've already clearly demonstrated numerous times as well as told us you dont play trad so unless you can actually demonstrate you know anything about the music as opposed to knowing an awful lot of academic knowledge of the players Im sorry but I have little interest in anything you have to say.
I know you don't care that people think you're a fool, jig. That's why you keep posting here.
No, I don't think most people would understand all of the references in that song without some clues. Some of the Scots is pretty thick ("We hae tint our plaid") , and even the more transparently English references ("and Montgomery's lady") are out of reach for a contemporary listener without footnotes. However, the simple understanding that it's mockery of King George is sufficient for most people to get the point. "How they'll skip and dance/o'er the bum o' Geordie" is not hard to work out.
"So you didn't transcribe the song by ear did you, you got it from the internet or from a book"
Oh, why do I bother? Arguing with the thick is pointless.
'My erroneous understanding of the Oral? or Aural tradition? Which do you mean?'
By the oral tradition I'm referring to the passing on songs from one person to another. That's exactly what I meant in my post above, but, as ever, you hit upon some canard in an attempt to obfuscate your ignorance.
'Are you familiar with the A Lords 'the singer of tales'?'
Yes, but I'm utterly puzzled why you think said book has any relevance to the Irish song tradition.
'Do you sing?'
Yep, I was singing when you were still in nappies.
'you've already clearly demonstrated numerous times as well as told us you dont play trad'
Where? When? I've been playing traditional music for my own enjoyment (and the occasional disgruntlement of others) since 1970.
'so unless you can actually demonstrate you know anything about the music as opposed to knowing an awful lot of academic knowledge of the players Im sorry but I have little interest in anything you have to say.'
Ah, well, if I know beggar all about the music, then I'll have to apologize to a heck of a lot of musicians who've valued my opinions over the last couple of decades.
But, of course, you're the glue which holds everything together, so I suppose I'll have to bow to your Araldite, sorry, erudite, opinions.
And, equally, of course, in your many guises on this board (Tradpiper, Hard to Pin Down, Nine, Ionannas, etc.) you've revealed yourself as the Michael Curtiz of traditional music.
As quoted by David Niven, an exasperated Curtiz once exploded thus "You people think I know f*uck nothing. Well, let me tell you I know f*uck all!"
Oh dear Jon, you do realise that by attacking me you clearly display your inability to deal with the points of argument? Having a Dphill from Oxford or wherever might give you an inflated opinion of your own worth but its only a piece of paper. You will gain much more respect by refraining from personal abuse and insults and sticking to the points of argument in question and when you realise, as you clearly have done, that your argument is unsustainable, simply acceding defeat instead of making childish insults that reflect more upon you than upon me in this case.
.Its simple, you did not pick up the tune by ear, you copied from a book. , or cut and paste from the internet. Just as Gemini did in his original post , just as you condemned . There a word for that Jon and its not flattering.
Well, I tried. I thought I would put a bit of the song through plenty of languages to see what monstrous outcomes might result, but I couldn't do cut-and-paste on Babelfish, so I only tried Greek, being able to read the results in this language.
They included the information that the fiddler played "a spool which seemed so big and homosexual", and "Stood by..." is rendered, "I defended your Atlantic sea". That sounds a lot more like hard work than just hanging out there.
Jig, what I've realized is that even though I could give you a pretty good transcription from memory, having listened to the song for decades now, you would still insist that I'd got it from a book or a website, and I could spend all day arguing with you and you'd still come poodling after me with some quibbling little nit to pick, and I'm not all that interested. If you were an interesting person with something to say, I might find it worth my time, but you're an anklebiter.
So here you are: I know the song from having listened to it. I don't sing the song, because I don't speak Scots and I don't do fake accents, and it doesn't work in my English. I don't know all of the details of all of the references in the song, and I don't recall the provenance of each detail I do know. If I'd know you'd be interested, I would have taken notes.
In short, I learned the song by listening to it, and I learned about the song by asking about it.
Of course Jon , so you wrote that from memory? by ear ? no cut and paste? Im impressed.
As far as being an ankle biter, well if so, so be it, many a big man has been taken down by a little dog and as they say its not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog. So if it pleases you to put me down while aggrandising yourself I hope you get great pleasure from it. Now Im off back to my hole so you can relax LOL Mind its better to live in a hole in the ground than to have your head stuck up your own. bye now.
Jon:
>Actually, it was interesting to think about exactly why the "saw one >touch the bow" seemed so weak and flabby a line to me
Sorry but your explanations read like an unconvincing attempt to retrospectively justify your earlier post.
If you think "saw one touch the bow" is weak and flabby in the context of the song you have an absolutely tin ear for poetry.
>If I heard that line, I couldn't hear the song. It would go straight on to >the heapof plastic Paddy pub songs for me - stuff people sing to >feel Irish, not because it means something.
Sorry but having read your post, I won't be in any rush to value your jusdgement over what is plastic paddy.
But what is really laughable here is that the song makes no pretence to be Irish, having been written by an englishman who lived for s while in ireland.
Chris - for most of your post, all I can say is, okay, if you like to think of it that way, that's fine. I'm not sure why I'd make up something like that if I didn't believe it, but sure, if you like to think so, that's okay.
But this deserved a response:
"But what is really laughable here is that the song makes no pretence to be Irish, having been written by an englishman who lived for s while in ireland."
And? "Danny Boy" is the top of the charts when it comes to "stuff people sing to feel Irish". Who wrote that lyric?
Well what do you know. A nice thread turns into a tirade of bitterness. Of course, we know that this has nothing whatsoever to do with jig waking up from his recent, much-appreciated semi-slumber, don't we...
Too much troll-feeding going on here, chaps and chapesses!
Jon: my last post was certainly harsh by my standards, I usually give people the benefit of the doubt. Had you had the grace to apologise to Gemini for being so quick to be needlessly rude, for not extending to him/her the benefit of the doubt, then your subsequent post might not have read to me as a simple face-saving justification.
The ability to acknowlege a mistaken or overly hasty judgement/remark and apologise for it, seems to me to be the social skill most badly lacking on the internet. Of course everyone makes posts that they regret, or should at any rate regret. But it seems to me that it is the inability of web users to subsequently apologise for heat of the moment rudeness or hasty judgements that results in so many pointless flame wars both directly in the original thread of the post and more generally on a forum by generating bad feeling between individual posters that then carries over into subsequent discussions with the results that posters start arguing against other specific posters becuase of who they are rather than discussing the ideas posted. This is not aimed specifically at this thread, nor at an individual poster, but a general observation on internet forum behaviour.
Anyway I've made my point, which people are free to agree or disagree with. And I'm therefore going to drop out of this thread rather than extend it any further.
I have an LP copy of Handful of Earth that I bought in the early 80s. It came with a 12" lyric sheet insert. Try as I might I could not avoid reading the the words of the songs rather than using my lugs.
Under Song for Ireland we find:
"Saw one touch the bow" and "air-blue sky".
So I always assumed that was what Dick sang - certainly sounded like it.
But I don't think it's worth getting on your high horse about it. Who cares? I'm lucky not to have oodles of experience in creative writing, so for me the sentiment is the same.
This does raise a point about ear learning though, sometimes its next to impossible to accurately get everything the singer/player is doing. Using notation[including words] can result in a more accurate rendition. Not always of course, several sources need to be referenced. Picking up tunes and songs by ear can lead to settings that are poorer than the source. This is a fact. Its not necessarily so, but its certainly worth considering.
For example I was recently studying with a Master of the tradition, Brendan Mulkere who used notation specifically because the settings he taught were very complex and tricky, full of accidentals and harmonic replacement. There were literally no repetitions of phrases. If its good enough for this simply Awesome player then Its good enough for me.
I recall Ralph MacTell being a bit miffed that the phrase
"and held loosely by his side" from Streets of London was habitually sung/printed as "hand held loosely by his side".
So I guess that if anyone is going to care about the exact wording of a song it is the author.
So you were simply learning his settings? Well very good, use his dots then. He didn't have to literally repeat any phrases, did he? You were doing that for him, having learned his settings from notation. Enjoy.
Simply! But anyhow its a matter of the ideas he gave us. different ways to vary a different approach to old standards like Star of Munster say. As to wether they were all his settings, or actually Paddy Fahey settings of his own tunes I dont know.
Song for Ireland
Song for Ireland
"...will ye still be there tomorrow...?!"
No bailout!
erin go bragh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdDnpkR3AQ&feature=fvw
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Song for Ireland
Always preferred Luke Kelly's version myself (though I am slightly obsessed).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz_dHcduUTU&feature=related
What a song.
And don't worry about Ireland, free cheese!
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Tom.M
Re: Song for Ireland
Mary Black? No thanks! Luke, wonderful, but I don't think anyone beats Dick Gaughan in this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PInNrFZQEwk
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Song for Ireland
Dick gives them a bit of stick in this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q38wBcVdJXM&feature=related
don't drink the bailout!
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Song for Ireland
Aye old Dick, he's da man, Luke's nae bad either......
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Song for Ireland
Those two songs are from my very favourite song album of all time, Handful Of Earth, and I reckon this is the best song from it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ7oYCx6tBw&feature=related
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Song for Ireland
that's great.
no bailouts with that one either; give it shtick!
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Song for Ireland
Yep, "A Handful of Earth", a great album. Westlin Winds, which is surely Burns (he called, Composed in August) & Gaughan at their best.
My all time favorite Gaughan album is his first, "No More Forever", just has an energy to it and it must have turned a few heads in 1972 or 3. The version of "The Green Linnet", just great.
I rebelled against folk music as a kid as the old man was a folky. As a teenager I was after a recording of "a handful of earth" but when I went round to my pals he'd lent it out and recorded "no more forever", that was me hooked.
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Song for Ireland
Dick is a legend and I think Handful of Earth is one of his best albums. The version of 'Song for Ireland" on it was actually the first recording of it. I saw him earlier this year and before he sang "Now Westlin Winds' he said it is one of his favorite songs ever written.
I saw the other day on the Whelan's (the Dublin pub and venue) that Dick and Andy Irvine are doing a gig together there in February. That is certainly not to be missed!
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Why Bother?
Re: Song for Ireland
Sorry that should be 'the Whelan's website.'
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Why Bother?
Re: Song for Ireland
No More Forever is really a great record - I love how you can listen to it and hear no difference between the old Napoleonic songs and the modern socialist marches. It feels like they're all part of the same tradition for Dick, where a lot of singers sing modern songs very differently to the old ones.
And it doesn't hurt that his singing is just incredibly right on that record.
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
the gold standard of music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP15bKvUpdw&feature=related
save us from the bankers and their bailouts. (does this stuff ever end from century to century?!!
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Song for Ireland
And Paddy Tunneys version of Craigie Hills is just sublime as well. Dick is the man and his message never fails to strike straight at the heart, well, except for the ruling classes and bankers who don't have one.
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by strayaway
Re: Song for Ireland
Gemini - have you thought about listening to the song instead of just copying the nearest "transcription" from the World-Famous Internet Thingy? Or at least reading what you post before you post it?
"Air-blue sky"? What on earth might that mean? "E'er-blue sky" more likely.
"Saw one touch the bow"? No, sorry, you couldn't make that mistake yourself. If you listened to the song you'd hear it's "Someone touched the bow".
I know, I know - "But Jon, laziness is what the internet is for!"
Yeah, but do you have to remind me?
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
Blue sky in the west of Ireland? Lol...
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Song for Ireland
thankfully there are things like trad music and thesession that will carry on, regardless of 'bailouts', failed banks etc.
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by harmonic miner
Re: Song for Ireland
Jon - have to say, well with Luke's version anyway, it definitely sounds like 'Saw one touch the bow' to me :D
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Tom.M
Re: Song for Ireland
Tom - pronunciation of the two phrases would be quite similar when sung. Trouble is, one makes sense, and the other doesn't.
"Gemini" - does posting a thing twice make it make sense? Or are you saying that it must be right because you found t on the internet?
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
'Blue sky in the west of Ireland?'
Well, we had a wonderful blue sky this morning (or am I missing some ironic point?).
However, there are certainly grey skies ahead, best defined by Fintan O'Toole - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1116/1224283411136.html. The comments are well worth reading too.
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Song for Ireland
Dick Gaughan has it like this on his webpage, for what that's worth:
'...in old pubs where fiddlers love to play.
Saw one touch the bow...'
http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/songs/texts/songfori.html
'...saw one [a fiddler from the previous line] touch the bow...'
Right? Meh? Feh? [shrug]
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Song for Ireland
Mary Black is the version for me!
And also for a mate of mine. He took his wife to a Mary Black concert and made her sit in the row behind. Just in case Mary might notice him and think that he was "attached".
New song for Ireland ?
"Buddy can you spare a dime?" ?????
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by ormepipes
Re: Song for Ireland
King Dick wins hands down I'm afraid! Though not mad on the lyrics of the above...Seamie O Dowd (and Kris Drever on a good day, amongst others) is proving a worthy successor to the throne. If in doubt, have a listen to his version of "Turn the Corner" by Thom Moore. At last...Our own Westlin Winds...
# Posted on November 17th 2010 by laguacamaya
Re: Song for Ireland
Listening to the song now and Dick definitely sings, "Saw one touch the bow". Has always made perfect sense to me. I don't have a version as sung by Phil Colclough though. Certainly there are other differences between the lyrics as posted by Gemini and what Dick sings. For example he sings the 2nd and 3rd verses the other way round. It is not worth getting all bothered about though.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Song for Ireland
Maybe it's "rare blue sky".
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Song for Ireland
Ahh - I see where Jon has gone wrong. He was listening to Mary Black's version. Schoolboy error. She does indeed sing, "Someone touched the bow". EIther makes sense but if in doubt go with what Mr Gaughan does. Follow that rule in life and you can't go too wrong.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Song for Ireland
Actually, I don't think I've ever heard Mary Black's version. Gaughan's is the one for me, I've just about got the thing memorized.
Phonetically, "someone" and "saw one" are realized the same when you sing them, unless you're some hyper-precise articulator (which Gaughan is not...maybe Mary Black is). But "saw one touch the bow" - as a lyric, it doesn't work for me. You don't listen with your eyes.
And, sorry "air-blue sky" is just dumb. Air isn't blue, sky is already air - it's like saying "the water-blue ocean.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
I wouldn't get too hung up on the "definitive" lyric as I don't think it exists to be honest. Like a player of tunes the singer make the song their own putting their own unique spin on it and pushing the angles that talk to them, that perhaps another singer would place different emphasis on.
It all comes down to how you sing it.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Song for Ireland
"Saw Black Head against the sky"
If it was that big, I wonder if anyone squeezed it ?
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by ormepipes
Re: Song for Ireland
I can promise you that Dick sings saw one. Guaranteed. The fact that his own website says he does, a website he personally has put together should be proof enough.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Song for Ireland
Ages ago I tried to work out if anyone actually sang the original Kavanagh words to Raglan Road. My googling of this issue served to educate me as to worralorracrap the internet contains. I did find out that there were some plausible interpretations, some ludicrously nonsensical ones and few, if any, faithful ones. Folk musicians seem to have this gene that stops them copying anything exactly.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Song for Ireland
Jon, Dick G definately sings "saw one", never thought anything else.
It makes *pefect* sense as a lyric and is a far finer choice than "someone".
The song is an informal set of fleeting reminisciences, jumping from one image to the next, not a narrative.
The verse in question has the singer saying: drinking in pubs with old fiddlers ... (I) 'saw one touch the bow. which perfcetly cpatures the pattern of normal speach, particularly when recalling memories with a strong emotional reverence.
In fact the same device is used in another verse:
Singing songs to pass the time away
*Watched the Galway salmon run*
Once again the "I" in the phrase about the salmon is dropped, which beautifully enhances the emotional intensity of the phrase: it is like the singer can't stop the memories flooding back.
In fact you may notice that the word "I" does not appear in the first three verses of the song. In contrast "I" is used, markedly so, throught the final verse which makes it stand out in contrast to the rest of the piece. You will note that the last verse is different in character: it is not a reminiscience of sensory experience but an expression of what the writer saw underlying those experiences.
The poetry in this song is wonderful, I don't see how anyone can imagine that "someone" rather than "saw one" fits in with the overall language and style of the song. Although I can imagine how "someone" might have msiheard the phrase in that manner: as you point out yorself "someone" sounds like "saw one" and could easily be misheard.
Of course this doesn't matter very much, except for the fact that you came out with a rather patronising, unprovoked assault on Gemini. I suggest that before you leap down someone's throat in such a manner again that you first (a) consider that it might be yourself that is mistaken; and (b) that even if it is the other person who is mistaken they still deserve to be treated with some respect.
- Chris
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Song for Ireland
Jon:
> unless you're some hyper-precise articulator (which Gaughan is >not...
That may well be true, but there are at least two scots posters here well familiar with edinburgh dialect who are certain that Dick sings "saw one". I'd suggest that such individuals are more likely to be more familar with Dick's idiomatic articulation than people who have less contact with folk from edinburgh.
And for what it is work Luke Kelly, who is often credited with very precise diction, cleraly sings "saw one".
Of course people can sing what they like. I only sing in the hosue, but there are songs where I've made small changes, deliberate or otherwise. What I found more disagreeable was the tenor of certain earlier remarks in this thread.
- chris
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Song for Ireland
Okay, this has definitely gotten out of hand. As for the lyric, listening to the Luke Kelly recording, it's possible that he sings it as "saw one touch the bow" - although phonetically, it's still ambiguous. The two are realized the same. Try it some time - try to sing both lines, and you'll find that the movement of your lips to close the bilabial for "some one" is almost exactly the same as the movement to pronounce the "w" of "saw one". In the former, the lips meet, in the latter they almost meet. Any singer familiar with microphones avoids "popping" the bilabials ("popping the p"), so you'll hear about the same sound. So it could be either, and apparently the latter is what many hear.
That's a very unfortunate lyric. "Someone touched the bow" - highlights a moment that everyone has had, in a vary particular context. We were in the bar, someone played a tune that caught our attention, and that is a moment worth remembering. In this context "touched the bow" is a nice piece of synecdoche. The anonymity of the fiddler is suitable here - when you hear a tune in a bar, and you're on the other side of the room, it's the tune that matters. The fiddler is a universal - it could have been any of us, in any bar. That's good writing.
On the other hand "saw one touch the bow" - suddenly the whole line has changed. Now I'm sitting in front of the fiddler, and "touch the bow" is now literal. I saw one of those fiddlers touch his bow - a sort of gesture - and then play a reel. Now the anonymity is carelessness. "One of the fiddlers" - I was looking right at him, I saw his hand grasp the bow, it's a particular guy, but I don't care enough about him to give him his name. That's vague.
In one, I know that the writer of the lines and the singer of the song has a place and a time in mind, and I have another place and time in mind, and for each of us, the meaning of that moment is the same. It's as close together as two minds can come, it's what poetry and song are for.
The other is a cartoon, a parody of a song. The writer draws a box and labels it "pub" and puts a stick figure of a fiddler in it, and says "you are here". It just doesn't work.
If I heard that line, I couldn't hear the song. It would go straight on to the heapof plastic Paddy pub songs for me - stuff people sing to feel Irish, not because it means something.
So there's a more specific accounting for my objection to the lyrics as posted. They're lousy lyrics - one simply change eviscerates the song.
Now, as for my response to Gemini, that's another matter. Robotically copying the lyrics from some random site, lyrics that someone posted probably in about 1995 and have been mindlessly copied from site to site ever since, is pointless. Yes, my response was patronizing. That's the only appropriate response to a senseless vomiting up of content without any thought or contribution. Clearly "Gemini" didn't put a moment's thought into what he (or she) flung up on the wall here, and he (or she) deserves about as much consideration as (s)he gives.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
Sorry Jon, you are so often right on this site but, in this instance it would be best to just draw a line under it. For my part I have always only heard it as, "Saw one". Dick clearly sings it as thus and says he does. Apparently Luke Kelly does too. By the sounds of it Mary Black has opted for your choice of words. I am not sure what need there is to over analyse it. It is fairly straight forward. You misheard Dick Gaughan's version. No harm in that.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Song for Ireland
That's a well thought out and explained opinion, even if I disagree with it and think that the anonymity is still kept by the 'one' being part of a group of 'fiddlers' who love to play in 'old pubs'.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Song for Ireland
Jon, you said this
"Saw one touch the bow"? No, sorry, you couldn't make that mistake yourself. If you listened to the song you'd hear it's "Someone touched the bow".
Its been clearly pointed out to you by a number of posters that in fact its *you* heard incorrectly. Which as you point out is very easily done, and I know for my own experience .
Its not just the internet by the way, there are plenty of published song books with appalling misrepresented lyrics Such as;
A hairy ass fair, instead of ; An old Horse fair.
But instead of simply apologising, you compound your original error. Sigh. Just looking at the lyrics its obvious that there is a clear pattern; 'saw' .
As far as e'er and air, well you go to extreme lengths to justify your mishearing as phonetic similarities. well the similarity is far stronger here. So perhaps instead of aggressively putting other posters down you might reconsider your own position in this discussion
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Song for Ireland
I miss playing this song. Our singer is much more reluctant to offer a song than she was in the past. Perhaps we may persuade her.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Song for Ireland
Well, I'm done with it, anyway. Didn't want to just leave it hanging, but that's all I've got to say on the matter.
Actually, it was interesting to think about exactly why the "saw one touch the bow" seemed so weak and flabby a line to me. It would never have occcurred to me that anyone would hear the song that way until I read the robopost of the lyrics, but having considered what the two lines would mean, I think I've got a new example of the difference between good and bad writing.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
By the way, sorry for the heap of typos - I was writing that up at my desk, and didn't give it my usual attention. Mea culpa.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
"Our singer is much more reluctant to offer a song than she was in the past. Perhaps we may persuade her"
Maybe she'd be inspired to sing this one if you made a few small changes to the lyric? Hm?
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
2 cents worth ~ I've copied/typed lyrics, for our singers, on a number of songs. These are on my laptop ...
"Saw one touch the bow"
&
"... all in your e'er blue sky."
Cyn's the singer, not myself, so it is she who chooses the words. I am merely her scribe. 98% sure she learnt it from Dick Gaughan's singing.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Song for Ireland
It’s “Salmon touch the bow.” “Bow” meaning “bent fishing rod” in the idiosyncratic strain of the Irish spoken in the wild corridor between Croom and Kilfinny.
And later in the song, it’s “Watched the Galway someone run.” Just who is this running “Galway someone?” The Galway Girl of country-pop fame.
I ask you friend, what’s a fella to do?
’Cause the ice was black and her hair was blue.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Song for Ireland
Since I've come back from frittering away a fair few minutes looking at the various versions of these lyrics available via a Google search to find that you are, after all, still discussing it, I might as well point out that those sites which include the information that the copyright is held by David Platz Music Inc also quote lyrics which agree with Jon. In addition, in the first verse they replace "saw Black Head" with "soar Black Head", which seems rather clumsy to me, but just about ok since there's no punctuation anyway.
I don't see any reason, though, to expect that (modern) song lyrics will be "good" writing, and if singers choose to change them, for better or worse, most of the time it probably won't matter. It just provides another "someone's wrong on the internet" opportunity - I really appreciated the link to that which you posted a while ago, Jon, thanks.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Slightly Mad Scientist
Re: Song for Ireland
Love me some xkcd, s.m.s. And thanks for the backup...
But I do expect lyrics to be good - great, even. I've spent too much time with great writers, some of whom you might have heard of (Andrew Calhoun, Dave Carter) and some of whom you'll never hear of (Ben Gilde, Keith Baich, Claire Bard, Stefan Gibson) to expect anything less.
And as a some-time singer - not a good one, by any means, but I like songs too much not to sing them once in a while - I don't understand why you'd sing a song that isn't great. Life's too short for single-buttocked songwriting.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
Raises an interesting point about the accuracy of our ears in Aural learning. this song here;
http://scottish-music-lyrics.blogspot.com/2008/01/cam-ye-oer-frae-france.html
Was a very tricky one to pick up from a Robin Williamson old scratchy recording. nowadays I just do a google search! brilliant. The hours I spent on this song... and what does it all mean anyhow?! feck it, who cares its a brilliant piece of music.
I spent a lot of time a few years ago listening to Rai, all sung in Arabic and French. still love it and Ive no idea what they're singing about.
But you see it doesnt matter what the original song was, what its melody or words are, thats not how Aural traditions work. The Authority is the singer and player, not the composer or transcriber.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Song for Ireland
Jig, have you never heard of Mondegreens? Their existence somewhat undermines your belief that 'The Authority is the singer and player, not the composer or transcriber'.
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/mondegre.htm
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Song for Ireland
"nowadays I just do a google search! brilliant."
That, jig, is exactly the worst thing about the internet. It's a brilliant producer of pathetic apathy. Learn the song? Nah, I'll just get it off the internet....
"thats not how Aural traditions work"
I can only assume that the irony here is intentional, and you're smarter than you let on. You've been pulling our collective leg all this time, haven't you?
As for the meaning, it's not hard to get started:
Cam' ye o'er frae France? Cam' ye doon by Lunnon?
Saw ye Geordie Whelps and his bonnie woman?
Were ye at the place ca'd the Kittle Hoosie?
Saw ye Geordie's grace, riding on a goosie?
Did you come over from France? Did you come down to London?
Did you see young King George with his hot chick?
Did you go to the brothel?
Did you see his Majesty shtupping the whore known as "the Goose".
It goes on in that vein. Again, Gaughan's recording is the one for me.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
I've changed my mind about missing hearing this song.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Song for Ireland
Ha, have you tried to notate the words from The Dick Gaughan recording without doing exactly what you just condemn me for doing? how long did it take and how accurate were you!?
You just cut and paste those lines from the internet! LOL. You got the translation from the internet too. tut tut.
As I said I spent hours at that song rewind, rewind, rewind, and I got 3/4 right. Try accurately transcribing a song in a language you dont understand, say Irish see how far you get. You wont get very far I assure you.
>>Mondegreens?<< of course Geoff I described a classic version in my post above. Thats my point. The singer is the authority of the song he sings. You might well say, 'he has it wrong' and in your opinion perhaps he has. In my example above I certainly think he has it wrong . In reference to the original song or tune perhaps he has . But thats the whole underlying fluidity of the Aural tradition. Things are not fixed according to a specified text. Despite what authoritarians might have to say, the singer and player of the tune, sings or plays it as he chooses, that is his or her right and this is a fundamental underlying aspect of the tradition that is missed more and more these days of recording.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Song for Ireland
Actually jig, that translation of the chorus is mine, although the original source is Gaughan - he sang it in Portland years ago, and explained some of the references before he sang it.
"Try accurately transcribing a song in a language you dont understand, say Irish see how far you get. You wont get very far I assure you"
Of course I won't. And since I don't speak Irish, I'd have no business trying to transcribe a song in Irish, let alone sing in Irish. What kind of a fool would sing a song they don't understand?
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
Jon, sorry, I didn't explain myself sufficiently clearly there. I'm looking at song-writing (not that I've ever done any) in particular as distinct from writing in general; poetry as distinct from prose perhaps. So although I think you're right about the correct version of this particular set of lyrics (even though I much prefer Dick Gaughan's singing to Mary Black's), I'm not sure that the pre-mutation versions of songs in general can be determined by assessing grammar and syntax! Lyrics can work as lyrics witrhout being good (correct) writing, maybe (e.g. saw/soar in the first verse) - which I meant to convey by putting quotation marks round "good". There are also plenty of songs which I personally think are awful both ways and which, if I sang, I wouldn't even consider. But they get sung.
I'm not sure I've made a better job of explaining myself this time - I know what I mean, anyway!
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Slightly Mad Scientist
Re: Song for Ireland
Maybe it's "saw one torch the bow"...
Time to put it through Babelfish, perhaps, and see what this extravagantly inventive folk process comes up with.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Song for Ireland
So, basically, jig,
You're stating that it's OK for singers to garble the lyrics of songs and pass their misinterpretations on to others because that somehow fits your erroneous understanding of the oral tradition?
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Song for Ireland
So where did you get the transcription you put up above? by ear? or from the net?
, on the contrary its a great song to sing.
Secondly do you sing the song? do you think I shouldn't have sung it for years because I didnt know what it was about that Im a fool for doing so? you think I care!? LOL.
Did me no harm
You think anyone would understand what the song was about without the historical /academic research gone into it? you think you would without Dick to explain it?
So you didn't transcribe the song by ear did you, you got it from the internet or from a book. Exactly the behaviour you've been preaching against isnt it...cut and paste...
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Song for Ireland
My erroneous understanding of the Oral? or Aural tradition? Which do you mean?
Are you familiar with the A Lords 'the singer of tales'? . Do you sing ? you've already clearly demonstrated numerous times as well as told us you dont play trad so unless you can actually demonstrate you know anything about the music as opposed to knowing an awful lot of academic knowledge of the players Im sorry but I have little interest in anything you have to say.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Song for Ireland
I know you don't care that people think you're a fool, jig. That's why you keep posting here.
No, I don't think most people would understand all of the references in that song without some clues. Some of the Scots is pretty thick ("We hae tint our plaid") , and even the more transparently English references ("and Montgomery's lady") are out of reach for a contemporary listener without footnotes. However, the simple understanding that it's mockery of King George is sufficient for most people to get the point. "How they'll skip and dance/o'er the bum o' Geordie" is not hard to work out.
"So you didn't transcribe the song by ear did you, you got it from the internet or from a book"
Oh, why do I bother? Arguing with the thick is pointless.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
'My erroneous understanding of the Oral? or Aural tradition? Which do you mean?'
By the oral tradition I'm referring to the passing on songs from one person to another. That's exactly what I meant in my post above, but, as ever, you hit upon some canard in an attempt to obfuscate your ignorance.
'Are you familiar with the A Lords 'the singer of tales'?'
Yes, but I'm utterly puzzled why you think said book has any relevance to the Irish song tradition.
'Do you sing?'
Yep, I was singing when you were still in nappies.
'you've already clearly demonstrated numerous times as well as told us you dont play trad'
Where? When? I've been playing traditional music for my own enjoyment (and the occasional disgruntlement of others) since 1970.
'so unless you can actually demonstrate you know anything about the music as opposed to knowing an awful lot of academic knowledge of the players Im sorry but I have little interest in anything you have to say.'
Ah, well, if I know beggar all about the music, then I'll have to apologize to a heck of a lot of musicians who've valued my opinions over the last couple of decades.
But, of course, you're the glue which holds everything together, so I suppose I'll have to bow to your Araldite, sorry, erudite, opinions.
And, equally, of course, in your many guises on this board (Tradpiper, Hard to Pin Down, Nine, Ionannas, etc.) you've revealed yourself as the Michael Curtiz of traditional music.
As quoted by David Niven, an exasperated Curtiz once exploded thus "You people think I know f*uck nothing. Well, let me tell you I know f*uck all!"
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Song for Ireland
Oh dear Jon, you do realise that by attacking me you clearly display your inability to deal with the points of argument? Having a Dphill from Oxford or wherever might give you an inflated opinion of your own worth but its only a piece of paper. You will gain much more respect by refraining from personal abuse and insults and sticking to the points of argument in question and when you realise, as you clearly have done, that your argument is unsustainable, simply acceding defeat instead of making childish insults that reflect more upon you than upon me in this case.
.Its simple, you did not pick up the tune by ear, you copied from a book. , or cut and paste from the internet. Just as Gemini did in his original post , just as you condemned . There a word for that Jon and its not flattering.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Song for Ireland
Well, I tried. I thought I would put a bit of the song through plenty of languages to see what monstrous outcomes might result, but I couldn't do cut-and-paste on Babelfish, so I only tried Greek, being able to read the results in this language.
They included the information that the fiddler played "a spool which seemed so big and homosexual", and "Stood by..." is rendered, "I defended your Atlantic sea". That sounds a lot more like hard work than just hanging out there.
I won't persist in this, don't worry!
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Song for Ireland
No, do nicholas I think its hilarious! put the whole song through . chuckle,
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Song for Ireland
Jig, what I've realized is that even though I could give you a pretty good transcription from memory, having listened to the song for decades now, you would still insist that I'd got it from a book or a website, and I could spend all day arguing with you and you'd still come poodling after me with some quibbling little nit to pick, and I'm not all that interested. If you were an interesting person with something to say, I might find it worth my time, but you're an anklebiter.
So here you are: I know the song from having listened to it. I don't sing the song, because I don't speak Scots and I don't do fake accents, and it doesn't work in my English. I don't know all of the details of all of the references in the song, and I don't recall the provenance of each detail I do know. If I'd know you'd be interested, I would have taken notes.
In short, I learned the song by listening to it, and I learned about the song by asking about it.
Now will you go crawl back in your hole?
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
Of course Jon , so you wrote that from memory? by ear ? no cut and paste? Im impressed.
As far as being an ankle biter, well if so, so be it, many a big man has been taken down by a little dog and as they say its not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog. So if it pleases you to put me down while aggrandising yourself I hope you get great pleasure from it. Now Im off back to my hole so you can relax LOL Mind its better to live in a hole in the ground than to have your head stuck up your own. bye now.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Song for Ireland
Oh, you caught me, jig. Yes, I used your link for that verse that I cited. Congratulations, you win.
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
Dick Gaughan is on tour in England and Wales at the moment. If you want to hear that definitive version...
http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/news/gigslist.html
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by eames59
Re: Song for Ireland
Jon:
>Actually, it was interesting to think about exactly why the "saw one >touch the bow" seemed so weak and flabby a line to me
Sorry but your explanations read like an unconvincing attempt to retrospectively justify your earlier post.
If you think "saw one touch the bow" is weak and flabby in the context of the song you have an absolutely tin ear for poetry.
>If I heard that line, I couldn't hear the song. It would go straight on to >the heapof plastic Paddy pub songs for me - stuff people sing to >feel Irish, not because it means something.
Sorry but having read your post, I won't be in any rush to value your jusdgement over what is plastic paddy.
But what is really laughable here is that the song makes no pretence to be Irish, having been written by an englishman who lived for s while in ireland.
- Chris
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Song for Ireland
'...salmon torched the bow...'
I'm just going to sing it like that from now on. Thanks everybody!
# Posted on November 18th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Song for Ireland
Mary Black has the best voice, Luke was the greatest folk singer ever, and Gaughan has passion.
however for me...the piano.
Pat Crowley on the Black version.
nice, simple, haunting.
Loads of wonderful Irish female singers but Black's backing group was always brilliant.
# Posted on November 19th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: Song for Ireland
Chris - for most of your post, all I can say is, okay, if you like to think of it that way, that's fine. I'm not sure why I'd make up something like that if I didn't believe it, but sure, if you like to think so, that's okay.
But this deserved a response:
"But what is really laughable here is that the song makes no pretence to be Irish, having been written by an englishman who lived for s while in ireland."
And? "Danny Boy" is the top of the charts when it comes to "stuff people sing to feel Irish". Who wrote that lyric?
# Posted on November 19th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Song for Ireland
http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/songs/texts/songfori.html
http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/songs/about-lyric-sites.html
# Posted on November 19th 2010 by ∅
Re: Song for Ireland
Well what do you know. A nice thread turns into a tirade of bitterness. Of course, we know that this has nothing whatsoever to do with jig waking up from his recent, much-appreciated semi-slumber, don't we...
Too much troll-feeding going on here, chaps and chapesses!
# Posted on November 19th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Song for Ireland
Jon: my last post was certainly harsh by my standards, I usually give people the benefit of the doubt. Had you had the grace to apologise to Gemini for being so quick to be needlessly rude, for not extending to him/her the benefit of the doubt, then your subsequent post might not have read to me as a simple face-saving justification.
The ability to acknowlege a mistaken or overly hasty judgement/remark and apologise for it, seems to me to be the social skill most badly lacking on the internet. Of course everyone makes posts that they regret, or should at any rate regret. But it seems to me that it is the inability of web users to subsequently apologise for heat of the moment rudeness or hasty judgements that results in so many pointless flame wars both directly in the original thread of the post and more generally on a forum by generating bad feeling between individual posters that then carries over into subsequent discussions with the results that posters start arguing against other specific posters becuase of who they are rather than discussing the ideas posted. This is not aimed specifically at this thread, nor at an individual poster, but a general observation on internet forum behaviour.
Anyway I've made my point, which people are free to agree or disagree with. And I'm therefore going to drop out of this thread rather than extend it any further.
- Chris
# Posted on November 19th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Song for Ireland
That's a very good idea. Something daft getting overdone overshadowing something worth talking about - that's this thread through and through.
# Posted on November 19th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Song for Ireland
I have an LP copy of Handful of Earth that I bought in the early 80s. It came with a 12" lyric sheet insert. Try as I might I could not avoid reading the the words of the songs rather than using my lugs.
Under Song for Ireland we find:
"Saw one touch the bow" and "air-blue sky".
So I always assumed that was what Dick sang - certainly sounded like it.
But I don't think it's worth getting on your high horse about it. Who cares? I'm lucky not to have oodles of experience in creative writing, so for me the sentiment is the same.
# Posted on November 19th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Song for Ireland
This does raise a point about ear learning though, sometimes its next to impossible to accurately get everything the singer/player is doing. Using notation[including words] can result in a more accurate rendition. Not always of course, several sources need to be referenced. Picking up tunes and songs by ear can lead to settings that are poorer than the source. This is a fact. Its not necessarily so, but its certainly worth considering.
For example I was recently studying with a Master of the tradition, Brendan Mulkere who used notation specifically because the settings he taught were very complex and tricky, full of accidentals and harmonic replacement. There were literally no repetitions of phrases. If its good enough for this simply Awesome player then Its good enough for me.
# Posted on November 19th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Song for Ireland
I recall Ralph MacTell being a bit miffed that the phrase
"and held loosely by his side" from Streets of London was habitually sung/printed as "hand held loosely by his side".
So I guess that if anyone is going to care about the exact wording of a song it is the author.
# Posted on November 19th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Song for Ireland
So you were simply learning his settings? Well very good, use his dots then. He didn't have to literally repeat any phrases, did he? You were doing that for him, having learned his settings from notation. Enjoy.
# Posted on November 19th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Song for Ireland
Simply!
But anyhow its a matter of the ideas he gave us. different ways to vary a different approach to old standards like Star of Munster say. As to wether they were all his settings, or actually Paddy Fahey settings of his own tunes I dont know.
# Posted on November 19th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Song for Ireland
The Bank of Ireland. Great tune,
is the name still valid?!
# Posted on November 22nd 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Song for Ireland
Aoibhe Cassidy go bragh...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKtqTYSOBCg
Sinn Fein...go bragh
# Posted on November 26th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh