This is not a windup or a troll, but a question that occurs to me every now and then when listening to fine trad. players. If you compare versions of the same tune or of similar tunes you'll find all sorts of variation, and almost every version breaks some "rule" about how to do it. Obvious examples are tonguing on the whistle or bowing pattterns on a fiddle. There are huge differences among players recognized as excellent in the tradition. So, what makes it right? Do we all recognize "right" or even agree what it is??
Surely we can move beyond "nyah" and "lift" and find some thing (or things) that learners can hang on to beyond "listen." I know I can play certain tunes several different ways imitating as best I can various fine players. What I can't get a hold on though is guidelines that can help me as a Iearn more tunes.
This reminds me of an old quip: "You're question is too small for my answer."
Thing is, there are many different "right" ways to play a tune, even a specific tune, even a specific setting of a specific tune. Of course there are lots of "wrong" ways, too, if you're aim is to sound "authentic."
And the answer isn't static, either. It's a moving target, albeit maybe a slow-moving target.
Plus, you may get a handful of criteria that most people can agree on, but not all people will agree on all criteria, and some people will insist on other criteria that the majority of others would dismiss. Follow?
I teach this music, so I'm accustomed to articulating what I think about how to create lift, nyah, pulse, momentum, etc. in the tunes. Five days a week I try to explain *how* to do this. But invariably, what works best is simply playing the tune with the student playing along so they can *feel* the lift, nyah, pulse, and so on.
Does it help to break down the details? Maybe.
In this music, when playing reels and hornpipes, you want to emphasize the 1st and 3rd beats in each group of 4 eighth notes. But this emphasis moves around among the 1s and 3s depending on the tune itself, your mood, your sense of the phrase at the moment you play it, and more. And the next time you play the same phrase, the emphasis can vary from what you played before. So it's not like some genres where you nearly always emphasize the down beat, or always hammer the back beat. In Irish traditional music, the emphasis moves around.
In jigs, slip jigs, and slides, the emphasis is mostly on the 1s of the 123 groupings. Some tunes like a little push on the 3s also, but never on the 2s.
In all these tunes, you can use sparse emphasis or frequent emphasis. A sparse reel might go like this:
| one two THREE four one two three four | one two three four one two THREE four | ONE two three four one two three four | and so on.
You'll get a bouncier feel playing a phrase: |ONE two THREE four ONE two THREE four |
In either case, you don't want to play that particular feel for very long or it overwhelms the melody and drives your session mates crazy. The point is to be able to choose where the emphasis goes as you play, to vary it, to let the melody guide you in this choosing, rather than pounding the melody out to a relentless, unwavering beat.
Which is not to say the the pulse in this music isn't steady. It *is* steady because you only emphasize the 1s and 3s in 4/4 time and the 1s in 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8.
So far, so good? But that's just the basic rhythm. You'll want to think about timing (what happens between the beats) and all the various ways to articulate timing, and also things like melodic variation, pace, tone....
This is slippery ground, but let's see what there is to be said.
In the cracks and the empty spaces of Will's post, I read this: this music is not a music of notes, it's a music of phrases. Micro-pauses, shifts in emphasis, ornamentation of various sorts, are all tools that musicians use to turn
A2AB AFED|B2BA BcdB|A2AB AFED|gfed BcdB| ...
into The Wind That Shakes the Barley.
Will's description of the rhythmic considerations is correct, but not exactly what we're looking for in terms of "getting it right". A good player will do all of these things, but doing all of these things doesn't make one a good player - you might say this is the difference between "correct" and "right".
What is it that's involved in "getting it right"? I don't think there's a very good language for this. It's a matter of internalizing the music and playing that, plus you. The problem is very much like trying to define humor. Humor can be shown by example, but I know of no way to explain how to be funny.
Jon, just to be clear, I was responding with cboody's request for "guidelines that can help me as [I] Iearn more tunes."
As cboody pointed out, when someone is in the earlier stages of sussing out this music, it doesn't help much to tell them to listen and internalize the "right" feel without some attempt at delineating the specifics of that feel.
One small part of the right feel for Irish music is knowing which beats/notes in a tune to emphasize. Especially in reels, with 4 options in every measure, but no consistent pattern (e.g., "always emphasize the down beat") from one measure or phrase to the next, it's easy for newbies to get lost. Even more so when the brilliant players they're listening to vary where the emphasis lands every time around.
Another way of looking at this is that it doesn't help to explain *how* to articulate pulse if the player doesn't know *where* to apply it. I prefer to give people some context first, and then dive into all the twiddly bits and other ways of creating pulse.
But that's just my approach.
I love how McDarra O'Raghallaigh follows this outline (playing with unadorned emphasis in the "right" places, then varying when and how he does it in every more interesting ways) as he goes into Maids of Mount Cisco here: http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_254_music_from_mullahoran/
Oh, don't get me wrong, I think your teaching is very useful here, and as I said, if someone's breaking the rules you've outlined, I think they're not likely to be playing what cboody's calling "right". But I don't think that's enough to get to "right", and unfortunately I don't have any language for telling you what I think "right" is. And what we cannot speak of, we must go on about at great length, and Wittgenstein emphatically did not say.
One thing I think I can say, as a sort of pointer to the right direction, is that this music is not a music of notes, it's a music of phrases. All of the rhythmic shifts you're talking about make more sense when considered at the phrase level than when considered at the note level. This may be related to the idea of "chunking" in cognitive science, in fact I'm fairly certain that it is. In that case, to return to the practical part of the question, the way to learn tunes to get them "correct" is to learn to hear them in the sort of "chunks" that the great players hear.
Phrasing is idiomatic, in music as in language. Native speakers and players know how to articulate phrases so that they make sense (without being totally formulaic and overly predictable) so that other native speakers and players will immediately understand them.
We learn this through immersion and mimicry and repetition, not so well by analysis, thesis, synthesis.
Still, we're just solving the world's problems on an internet forum, not actually doing an autopsy on the music. So what specifics do we know about phrasing in this music?
It's flexible--phrases can elongate and contract to suit the imagination of the player.
Phrases often span notational bar lines.
The emphasis on beats within phrases is moveable, but only to specific places (e.g., 1s and 3s in reels).
One phrase often flows directly into the next, rather than pausing. But flow and pause can both be used for effect.
What does "for effect" mean? To be coherent within the idiom of this music, phrases must (1) comply with and enhance the overall rhythm of the tune, (2) create a sense of pulse and momentum, and (3) help develop (rather than distract from) the overarching story line of the tune.
Meh. It still comes back to immersion, mimcry, and repetiion till it just sounds right.
I believe that learning to play whistle or flute, even just a little, is one of the better ways for anyone, playing any instrument, to gain insights into how phrasing works in this music. Learning all the options for when and where to breathe in a tune is learning how to "sing" this music. And then it can come out "right" on fiddle, box, banjo, whatever.
>>It still comes back to immersion, mimcry, and repetiion till it just sounds right.
Well, I'm glad you put that bit in. And here I was, thinking it's just about playing great tunes...
The more you go on like that, the less I feel I really know this music - which isn't to say I disagree, just that in my several decades of listening/playing I have never got close to analysing like that.
And without wishing to revive dead discussions, all your talk of subleties known to 'native' players makes me think back to my point in a certain earlier thread...
Nice clip. Made me forget the original question anyway. Maybe that’s when you know it is right – when you are not asking the question anymore. What makes it wrong is definately an easier one..
Those subtleties can be acquired. Will, after all, is from Montana, which is a very pretty state but not known for its huge Irish music scene.
A couple years ago I was playing a tune and someone said to me, "That's wrong. The tune doesn't go like that." I'd gotten the version I was playing off a recording and as I'd only been playing for three or four years at that point, I tended to play the tunes as I'd learned them and couldn't play on-the-spot variations or anything like that. I explained to my critic that I'd gotten this particular version of the tune from such-and-such recording and my critic said, "Well, he can play it like that." Confused, I answered, "So if (famous player) plays it like that, it's a variation. But if I play it like that, it's wrong?" Apparently so.
I still don't know what to make of that but in the meantime I (hope) I've gotten better at hearing the subtleties of phrasing. I want to echo Will and Jon in saying that phrasing is the absolute key, critical thing. Good players, as they say, subtlety vary the phrases, pushing them, pulling them, turning them around, in perfect control of all the elements of the tune, the lift, the swing, the drive.
"You're question is too small for my answer." Must remember that :]
To which I will add: the first step in finding an answer to your question is knowing what to ask.
In that clip, incidentally, he never plays a phrase the same way twice, and never repeats a variation. At one point he even makes himself smile at something he comes up with. Brilliant stuff.
I have pondered this question for countless hours, and certainly do *not* pretend to have the "RIGHT" answer, but will share some thoughts on the question.
Perhaps "RIGHT" does not necessarily have to do with how one plays a tune as much as it has to do with how one learns a tune?
I once played with someone who would get the gist of a tune worked out, perhaps as much as 90% of it, and then fudge the rest. When I questioned this person, they replied, "Well no two players play any tune alike, so why does it matter?"
The reason why it matters, to borrow some thoughts from Llig Leahchim is that that first 90% of a tune would typically be the most shallow, soulless part of the tune, and that the final 10% would often be the distinguishing characteristic that would give the tune it's life, it's lift, it's significance. (Paradoxically, it may even be that final 10% that the celebrity players might be most inclined to 'vary', but only after they've got it 'right'.)
So I would say that "WRONG" = "I've got 90% of the tune figured out, and just fudge the rest, because who really cares, anyway."
And "RIGHT" = "I got 90% of the tune quickly and easily, and then laboriously worked through the remaining 10% to be sure that I play it the way that <celebrity player> plays it on <seminal recording>, only to find out that <other celebrity player> plays it differently on <other seminal recording>, so I'd better put some serious reflection and practice time into understanding and being able to play these subtle differences so that if someone starts it at a session, I can adapt accordingly."
Here's a quick example that comes to mind. I copied the first two bars of The Bird In The Bush from the Tunes' section's ABC:
|: d2eB dB~B2 | dBAB GAAG |
This is pretty close to how the tune was taught be me (by <celebrity player> at a workshop), and I'd played it that way for years.
Then I started it at a session one night, and some other players played a Cnat in place of the 'd' as the first note of the second bar. I went along for the ride, and delightfully felt like I had added an entirely new tune to my repertoire.
Such a small change had such a profound difference on how I played and thought about the tune.
I've since heard the tune played both ways, depending on session, and/or session leader, and I'm delighted that I improved (however minutely) my ability to listen to and suss out such a minor, but profound variation to a tune.
Aside from classical musicians are there examples of talented trad musicians doing it 'wrong'? I don't think so. How about examples of begginners that sound 'right'. Again I don't think so. They may be 'on the right track' but they won't sound 'right' in the context of this dialogue. Isn't it just a matter of talent/practice/dedication?
In my mind the music is entwined with the dance tradition. The lift, the beat, the steps drive each other.
Learning even some basic traditional dance steps and going to dances with live musicians ( the older the better) can help get this "right" feeling.
Will - I always love your posts - you sound like a great teacher!
I'll take a crack at this because I recently had the experience of going back to my old slow play group and listening to them discuss variations. I mean they were really arguing which version was right or not.
Now I'm a pretty regular session goer (3 different ones each week) and have totally different perspective than I did as a beginner. And I kind of was laughing at their argument - because the answer was "they're all right - depending on the circumstance and players".
To me, the "correct" version is the one closest to what is being played at that particular pub/venue. Sometimes it is dictated by the alpha player or by consensus of the regulars. So while I might learn one version of a tune off a recording or dots, I don't consider it really learned until I've played it a few times in a session to make sure what I have conforms to the locals. Then my variations tend to be fairly tightly close to what is being played - mostly rhythmic variations as opposed to melodic variations.
One of the sessions I go to is led by a fiddler who is IMHO the best fiddler in our area - but he's not interested so much in what the "correct" version of the tune is but how he can bend it (staying in the tradition I mean - it's a real education to listen to him mold the tune but still sound incredibly within the tradition). So he might play a fairly standard version first time round - then takes off from there. We hang on if we can (some of us pound out the usual version - others try to follow where he's going!).
Listening to as many versions of a tune as possible is also really helpful for me. I can hear all the ways the tune can be bent and still sound like it's the same tune being played. I of course mean listening to good players - some of the best in the tradition. Then eventually, as you progress as a player, you'll start to hear those kinds of variations in your head and know if you can get away with trying one here or there as the session is rolling along....
I guess in a nutshell, the answer is listen, listen, listen and eventually it will make sense....
Ian, I should clarify what I meant by "native" players. Not "Irish" or "from Ireland,", no what I meant was any player who has this music as his or her dominant genre. For example, I can play old timey, rock, and bluegrass, but my dominant musical language is Irish traditional. It's the music I've been most immersed in, for decades.
Similar to language. When I was three, we moved from the US to Italy. When I was six, we moved back to the States. In the meantime, I became fluent in Italian. The utter immersion is what did it. I thought and dreamt in Italian for those years. The locals were often very confused over why this little Italian kid (me) was hanging out with two very American adults (my parents). I sounded completely "native."
In spite of learning Irish music as a suburban Yank kid, and playing it for decades here in the shamrock-studded glens and gorse-lined lanes [heavy sarcasm] of Montana, I've been told by many "native" players that my playing sounds totally native.
So it's not about where you live or your ethnicity. Just about how well and thoroughly you immerse, mimic, repeat.
Thanks for all the comments. Here's the summary of what I think I read:
1) Listen enough and you'll know. i.e. absorb the language.
2) Phrasing is important, but varies constantly in performance so only a few general guidelines can be suggested.
3) It's right when its right, and otherwise it isn't. (Yogi Berra is here somewhere!)
4) I'm happy to know others have real problems with articulating this stuff.
As some of you know I've been a musician for about 60 (egad!) years and have considerable experience in lots of styles. The Irish stuff remains difficult for me to get a handle on. Baroque, no problem. Classic, no problem. Most (but not all) jazz, no problem. Old Timey, more of a problem, but not as much as Irish. Sure I can play phrases across bar lines and discover internal motivic material that can be articulated. Sure I know fairly well how to stress the various dance rhythms and (usually) avoid the deadly way some folks beat Irish stuff to death. And, fortunately, I can pick things up from others once I have a generic version of a tune under hand and can join with others.
But, since my training has revolved around being analytical about music I'm always looking for more and better explanations. I've gotten some here that I'll continue to read and reflect upon and greatly appreciate all the comments.
Someone remarked that it is easier to say what is wrong. OK. Chew on that for a bit.
I don't usually post here, as am still pretty much a beginner in this music, but I have to say that I was told about nyah and lift until I thought I knew what to listen for, and listen I do, while I run, exercise, ride horses, work, etc., but it wasn't until a fine fiddler moved to Montana (yes, Montana, the UNmecca of Irish music!) did I start to understand. It wasn't until I played next to her that I truly understood what it all meant. She's played Irish music since she was small, learning her tunes on fiddle from a piper, spending much time in Ireland, etc., and still every time we play a tune, I think to myself, "so THAT'S how it's supposed to sound!" Every once in a while I can sort of pick it up and fit with her for moments at a time, and it's thrilling to me. The down side is it makes me realize how far I have to go before I truly get it. sigh. Anyway, for what it's worth, for me personally, actually playing with someone who has the feel was the clincher for me. (and, yes, you can feel sorry for her having to play next to me! : )
It's always good to be playing with someone who's listening, and you can always learn from someone who's listening. It doesn't matter how you rank compared to them or vice versa - two people playing music and really listening to each other will have a good time at it.
On the other hand, it doesn't matter if someone's a rank beginner or has more chops than a Finnish lumberjack, if they're not listening to what's going on around them, they're no fun at all.
Gosh, that's me agreeing with tab twice in a row. I wonder what's going on here?
I was talking about this after a session last night with someone who asked. I called it digestion then recreation, not just 'merely mimicking' like Will said. Of course, this led to all sorts of tipsy toilet jokes, so in keeping with that same spirit:
So how do we tell the difference between someone who speaks the language and an actor who has had a good language coach ? (picking up on Will's "dominant musical language is Irish traditional" higher up and his "won't merely be mimicking" just above).
David, given time and continued immersion, you won't be able to tell the difference. That's the point. Anyone can sound "right," no matter what their original music was. Just like language, the earlier you start and the more completely immersed you are, the more "native" you will sound. Unless you choose to hang on to idioms and inflections from the previous music.
It's all about getting the"right" sound in your head as the dominant sound. And then letting it out.
For the first time the other night, I saw Colin Farrell in "In Bruges" speaking in his real (and very Dub) accent. I can't remember the first movie I saw him in but he was doing an American accent and I had no idea that he was Irish or anything else.
On the other hand, Mel Gibson's Scottish accent in Braveheart is not quite as convincing.
In these discussions I keep being reminded of a radio discussion about a Shakespeare production. It was noted that an actor showed some traces of his regional north American accent. Someone wondered if it might have been just as 'correct' as what UK audiences were used to.
I've seen American productions of Shakespeare's plays where everyone talked in their normal accent. That's better than a bunch of crap fake English accents (unless your whole cast could convincingly fake an English accent).
>>I should clarify what I meant by "native" players. Not "Irish" or "from Ireland,", ... any player who has this music as his or her dominant genre....Irish traditional. It's the music I've been most immersed in, for decades.
>>Just about how well and thoroughly you immerse, mimic, repeat.
Don't worry, Will, I wasn't trying to resurrect that old epic. You'll start suspecting I'm a T..ll next
One frustrating thing here, if course, is that for all of the talk about 'feel', there's precious little opportunity to *hear* what anyone means in person.
By your definition, I too am a native player, though 'nyah' is a new one on me. Anyone care to explain?
I can listen to a tune being played and make a reasonably good judgement at its quality, but producing it on the mando. is another thing entirely. Not being defeatist - I'm working hard on it - but I just hear, I don't seem to be able to anyalyse/deconstruct like that.
Ian, I deconstruct *only* to help people learn who don't seem ready to get it through just listening. Seems these are the folks most likely to come looking for music lessons. Go figure.
Fair point, Will. However, some one somewhere else on here made the comment that Irish music can be pretty impenetrable - ironic really, when the tunes are, on the face of it so simple...
I am not great musical theorist, but in my time I have also played in wind bands and sung in choirs, without any more than a fairly rudimentary theoretical training, and still been able to identify the 'mechanics' of those genres without too much problem. Bach counterpoint? Yes I can understand (a bit of) how it works...Irish music, the defining qualities escape me in rational terms, even though I know them when I hear them.
Perhaps it's a problem caused by, of necessity, mostly having raised myself only on recordings rather than live players, and then mostly of bands where the overall sound masks the effect of any one instrument.
Perhaps also of playing an instrument which I am increasingly sure doesn't capture those characteristics particularly willingly...? Makes it harder to imitate the definitive sound...
I suspect that this is also both a defining characteristic, and perhaps an Achilles' heel, of an oral tradition - it's hard to explain and hard to pass on.
Ian, I play these tunes on mandolin, too, but I far prefer the slurs and sustain of a fiddle and bow for this music. So if you're listening to a lot of fiddlers and pipers and flute players, don't set your expectations too high of emulating all the twiddly bits and slurry bits those instruments can do. You simply can't get those same sounds on a mandolin. Though you can get in the vicinity by judicious use of triplets, smears, hammer ons and pull offs, etc.
On mandolin, I think the essential thing is to know when and where to accent the strong beats (those 1s and 3s I talked about above) and how to precisely time the notes in between in ways that create momentum, pulling you from one phrase to the next, and creating the phrasing in the first place.
At last, some one has admitted that this music played on the mando. *will not* sound the same as on more traditional instruments. That takes some saying, given the strong, idiomatic nature of this music, and the strength of feeling that 'it must be done right'.
I do do most of the things you say, and it's starting to sound better. I took Ethical Blend's criticism of my recordings to heart - because he was right - and have worked hard at it, even if I can't quite make it work on recordings themselves yet...
But I also think he was judging against criteria that were maybe not entirely fair, by not allowing sufficiently for the nature of the instrument, which - let's face it - doesn't get used as lead instrument that often here.
The elephant in the room, of course, is the feeling that maybe I ought to give the fiddle a go, but it seems pretty daunting to be back at the foot of the mountain again...
Ian, here's a clip of Three Mile Stone, with Marla Fibish on mandolin. Gives you some idea of what a good player can do with the pulse, never mind the limitations of a flat pick on high-tension double-course strings. The third tune, a reel, isn't Irish, but the style is close enough to sense how the lift and momentum can be applied to Irish reels.
I agree - lovely playing, as are the tantalising short clips on her own website. I think I am heading in the right direction; what still escapes me is how to get that 'bouncy' sound - despite my best efforts, I've never really found it...
I should mention that Marla will be teaching Irish mandolin at Portal Irish Music Week in Arizona, October 13-17, 2011 (I'm helping organize the event).
Ian, from my own attempts to play the tunes well on mandolin, what seems to create the pulse is small variations in volume--accenting the strong beats by playing them louder--while backing off the attack on neighboring notes. It's absolutely crucial that you understand *which beats* need emphasis and which ones don't to get the "right" pulse. Marla does that very well, but she's even more savvy with her timing--managing the duration of each note, again with the purpose of creating pulse and lift. The strong beats tend to be longer (although clipping one short now and then and leaving silence after also works), and the beats immediately after a strong beat are almost always shortened, sometimes to near non-existence (e.g., the second note in a 1-2-3 of a jig).
All of this is easier to pick up by playing with someone who already has the pulse and feel you're seeking. I'd recommend learning a tune or three off of Marla's clips and then play along, note for note, really listening closely to her dynamics and timing. That will get you farther than any amount of written advice. (Not that I mind typing... )
What makes it "right?"
What makes it "right?"
This is not a windup or a troll, but a question that occurs to me every now and then when listening to fine trad. players. If you compare versions of the same tune or of similar tunes you'll find all sorts of variation, and almost every version breaks some "rule" about how to do it. Obvious examples are tonguing on the whistle or bowing pattterns on a fiddle. There are huge differences among players recognized as excellent in the tradition. So, what makes it right? Do we all recognize "right" or even agree what it is??
Surely we can move beyond "nyah" and "lift" and find some thing (or things) that learners can hang on to beyond "listen." I know I can play certain tunes several different ways imitating as best I can various fine players. What I can't get a hold on though is guidelines that can help me as a Iearn more tunes.
Anyone want to tackle this??
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by cboody
Re: What makes it "right?"
This reminds me of an old quip: "You're question is too small for my answer."
Thing is, there are many different "right" ways to play a tune, even a specific tune, even a specific setting of a specific tune. Of course there are lots of "wrong" ways, too, if you're aim is to sound "authentic."
And the answer isn't static, either. It's a moving target, albeit maybe a slow-moving target.
Plus, you may get a handful of criteria that most people can agree on, but not all people will agree on all criteria, and some people will insist on other criteria that the majority of others would dismiss. Follow?
I teach this music, so I'm accustomed to articulating what I think about how to create lift, nyah, pulse, momentum, etc. in the tunes. Five days a week I try to explain *how* to do this. But invariably, what works best is simply playing the tune with the student playing along so they can *feel* the lift, nyah, pulse, and so on.
Does it help to break down the details? Maybe.
In this music, when playing reels and hornpipes, you want to emphasize the 1st and 3rd beats in each group of 4 eighth notes. But this emphasis moves around among the 1s and 3s depending on the tune itself, your mood, your sense of the phrase at the moment you play it, and more. And the next time you play the same phrase, the emphasis can vary from what you played before. So it's not like some genres where you nearly always emphasize the down beat, or always hammer the back beat. In Irish traditional music, the emphasis moves around.
In jigs, slip jigs, and slides, the emphasis is mostly on the 1s of the 123 groupings. Some tunes like a little push on the 3s also, but never on the 2s.
In all these tunes, you can use sparse emphasis or frequent emphasis. A sparse reel might go like this:
| one two THREE four one two three four | one two three four one two THREE four | ONE two three four one two three four | and so on.
You'll get a bouncier feel playing a phrase: |ONE two THREE four ONE two THREE four |
In either case, you don't want to play that particular feel for very long or it overwhelms the melody and drives your session mates crazy. The point is to be able to choose where the emphasis goes as you play, to vary it, to let the melody guide you in this choosing, rather than pounding the melody out to a relentless, unwavering beat.
Which is not to say the the pulse in this music isn't steady. It *is* steady because you only emphasize the 1s and 3s in 4/4 time and the 1s in 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8.
So far, so good? But that's just the basic rhythm. You'll want to think about timing (what happens between the beats) and all the various ways to articulate timing, and also things like melodic variation, pace, tone....
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: What makes it "right?"
This is slippery ground, but let's see what there is to be said.
In the cracks and the empty spaces of Will's post, I read this: this music is not a music of notes, it's a music of phrases. Micro-pauses, shifts in emphasis, ornamentation of various sorts, are all tools that musicians use to turn
A2AB AFED|B2BA BcdB|A2AB AFED|gfed BcdB| ...
into The Wind That Shakes the Barley.
Will's description of the rhythmic considerations is correct, but not exactly what we're looking for in terms of "getting it right". A good player will do all of these things, but doing all of these things doesn't make one a good player - you might say this is the difference between "correct" and "right".
What is it that's involved in "getting it right"? I don't think there's a very good language for this. It's a matter of internalizing the music and playing that, plus you. The problem is very much like trying to define humor. Humor can be shown by example, but I know of no way to explain how to be funny.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What makes it "right?"
Jon, just to be clear, I was responding with cboody's request for "guidelines that can help me as [I] Iearn more tunes."
As cboody pointed out, when someone is in the earlier stages of sussing out this music, it doesn't help much to tell them to listen and internalize the "right" feel without some attempt at delineating the specifics of that feel.
One small part of the right feel for Irish music is knowing which beats/notes in a tune to emphasize. Especially in reels, with 4 options in every measure, but no consistent pattern (e.g., "always emphasize the down beat") from one measure or phrase to the next, it's easy for newbies to get lost. Even more so when the brilliant players they're listening to vary where the emphasis lands every time around.
Another way of looking at this is that it doesn't help to explain *how* to articulate pulse if the player doesn't know *where* to apply it. I prefer to give people some context first, and then dive into all the twiddly bits and other ways of creating pulse.
But that's just my approach.
I love how McDarra O'Raghallaigh follows this outline (playing with unadorned emphasis in the "right" places, then varying when and how he does it in every more interesting ways) as he goes into Maids of Mount Cisco here: http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_254_music_from_mullahoran/
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: What makes it "right?"
Oh, don't get me wrong, I think your teaching is very useful here, and as I said, if someone's breaking the rules you've outlined, I think they're not likely to be playing what cboody's calling "right". But I don't think that's enough to get to "right", and unfortunately I don't have any language for telling you what I think "right" is. And what we cannot speak of, we must go on about at great length, and Wittgenstein emphatically did not say.
One thing I think I can say, as a sort of pointer to the right direction, is that this music is not a music of notes, it's a music of phrases. All of the rhythmic shifts you're talking about make more sense when considered at the phrase level than when considered at the note level. This may be related to the idea of "chunking" in cognitive science, in fact I'm fairly certain that it is. In that case, to return to the practical part of the question, the way to learn tunes to get them "correct" is to learn to hear them in the sort of "chunks" that the great players hear.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What makes it "right?"
Yep.
Phrasing is idiomatic, in music as in language. Native speakers and players know how to articulate phrases so that they make sense (without being totally formulaic and overly predictable) so that other native speakers and players will immediately understand them.
We learn this through immersion and mimicry and repetition, not so well by analysis, thesis, synthesis.
Still, we're just solving the world's problems on an internet forum, not actually doing an autopsy on the music. So what specifics do we know about phrasing in this music?
It's flexible--phrases can elongate and contract to suit the imagination of the player.
Phrases often span notational bar lines.
The emphasis on beats within phrases is moveable, but only to specific places (e.g., 1s and 3s in reels).
One phrase often flows directly into the next, rather than pausing. But flow and pause can both be used for effect.
What does "for effect" mean? To be coherent within the idiom of this music, phrases must (1) comply with and enhance the overall rhythm of the tune, (2) create a sense of pulse and momentum, and (3) help develop (rather than distract from) the overarching story line of the tune.
Meh. It still comes back to immersion, mimcry, and repetiion till it just sounds right.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: What makes it "right?"
I believe that learning to play whistle or flute, even just a little, is one of the better ways for anyone, playing any instrument, to gain insights into how phrasing works in this music. Learning all the options for when and where to breathe in a tune is learning how to "sing" this music. And then it can come out "right" on fiddle, box, banjo, whatever.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: What makes it "right?"
>>It still comes back to immersion, mimcry, and repetiion till it just sounds right.
Well, I'm glad you put that bit in. And here I was, thinking it's just about playing great tunes...
The more you go on like that, the less I feel I really know this music - which isn't to say I disagree, just that in my several decades of listening/playing I have never got close to analysing like that.
And without wishing to revive dead discussions, all your talk of subleties known to 'native' players makes me think back to my point in a certain earlier thread...
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by ian stock
Re: What makes it "right?"
Nice clip. Made me forget the original question anyway. Maybe that’s when you know it is right – when you are not asking the question anymore. What makes it wrong is definately an easier one..
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: What makes it "right?"
Those subtleties can be acquired. Will, after all, is from Montana, which is a very pretty state but not known for its huge Irish music scene.
A couple years ago I was playing a tune and someone said to me, "That's wrong. The tune doesn't go like that." I'd gotten the version I was playing off a recording and as I'd only been playing for three or four years at that point, I tended to play the tunes as I'd learned them and couldn't play on-the-spot variations or anything like that. I explained to my critic that I'd gotten this particular version of the tune from such-and-such recording and my critic said, "Well, he can play it like that." Confused, I answered, "So if (famous player) plays it like that, it's a variation. But if I play it like that, it's wrong?" Apparently so.
I still don't know what to make of that but in the meantime I (hope) I've gotten better at hearing the subtleties of phrasing. I want to echo Will and Jon in saying that phrasing is the absolute key, critical thing. Good players, as they say, subtlety vary the phrases, pushing them, pulling them, turning them around, in perfect control of all the elements of the tune, the lift, the swing, the drive.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What makes it "right?"
"You're question is too small for my answer." Must remember that :]
To which I will add: the first step in finding an answer to your question is knowing what to ask.
In that clip, incidentally, he never plays a phrase the same way twice, and never repeats a variation. At one point he even makes himself smile at something he comes up with. Brilliant stuff.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by gam
Re: What makes it "right?"
< Surely we can move beyond "nyah" and "lift" >
Then it would'nt be true, real, Irish Music !!!
And would not sound like this -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4wt2JQqpc8
jim,,,
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: What makes it "right?"
I LIKE IT = "Right".
I DO NOT LIKE IT = "Wrong".
Now that is settled, any questions about jazz?
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Piece
Re: What makes it "right?"
I have pondered this question for countless hours, and certainly do *not* pretend to have the "RIGHT" answer, but will share some thoughts on the question.
Perhaps "RIGHT" does not necessarily have to do with how one plays a tune as much as it has to do with how one learns a tune?
I once played with someone who would get the gist of a tune worked out, perhaps as much as 90% of it, and then fudge the rest. When I questioned this person, they replied, "Well no two players play any tune alike, so why does it matter?"
The reason why it matters, to borrow some thoughts from Llig Leahchim is that that first 90% of a tune would typically be the most shallow, soulless part of the tune, and that the final 10% would often be the distinguishing characteristic that would give the tune it's life, it's lift, it's significance. (Paradoxically, it may even be that final 10% that the celebrity players might be most inclined to 'vary', but only after they've got it 'right'.)
So I would say that "WRONG" = "I've got 90% of the tune figured out, and just fudge the rest, because who really cares, anyway."
And "RIGHT" = "I got 90% of the tune quickly and easily, and then laboriously worked through the remaining 10% to be sure that I play it the way that <celebrity player> plays it on <seminal recording>, only to find out that <other celebrity player> plays it differently on <other seminal recording>, so I'd better put some serious reflection and practice time into understanding and being able to play these subtle differences so that if someone starts it at a session, I can adapt accordingly."
Thoughts?
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by browndog
Re: What makes it "right?"
Here's a quick example that comes to mind. I copied the first two bars of The Bird In The Bush from the Tunes' section's ABC:
|: d2eB dB~B2 | dBAB GAAG |
This is pretty close to how the tune was taught be me (by <celebrity player> at a workshop), and I'd played it that way for years.
Then I started it at a session one night, and some other players played a Cnat in place of the 'd' as the first note of the second bar. I went along for the ride, and delightfully felt like I had added an entirely new tune to my repertoire.
Such a small change had such a profound difference on how I played and thought about the tune.
I've since heard the tune played both ways, depending on session, and/or session leader, and I'm delighted that I improved (however minutely) my ability to listen to and suss out such a minor, but profound variation to a tune.
So which is "RIGHT"? Both. And either.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by browndog
Re: What makes it "right?"
Aside from classical musicians are there examples of talented trad musicians doing it 'wrong'? I don't think so. How about examples of begginners that sound 'right'. Again I don't think so. They may be 'on the right track' but they won't sound 'right' in the context of this dialogue. Isn't it just a matter of talent/practice/dedication?
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by shanty
Re: What makes it "right?"
Coincidentally, cboody, I posted a similar discussion a few years back that got quite a few insightful responses...
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11011
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by browndog
Re: What makes it "right?"
In my mind the music is entwined with the dance tradition. The lift, the beat, the steps drive each other.
Learning even some basic traditional dance steps and going to dances with live musicians ( the older the better) can help get this "right" feeling.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Boots MacAllen
Re: What makes it "right?"
Will - I always love your posts - you sound like a great teacher!
I'll take a crack at this because I recently had the experience of going back to my old slow play group and listening to them discuss variations. I mean they were really arguing which version was right or not.
Now I'm a pretty regular session goer (3 different ones each week) and have totally different perspective than I did as a beginner. And I kind of was laughing at their argument - because the answer was "they're all right - depending on the circumstance and players".
To me, the "correct" version is the one closest to what is being played at that particular pub/venue. Sometimes it is dictated by the alpha player or by consensus of the regulars. So while I might learn one version of a tune off a recording or dots, I don't consider it really learned until I've played it a few times in a session to make sure what I have conforms to the locals. Then my variations tend to be fairly tightly close to what is being played - mostly rhythmic variations as opposed to melodic variations.
One of the sessions I go to is led by a fiddler who is IMHO the best fiddler in our area - but he's not interested so much in what the "correct" version of the tune is but how he can bend it (staying in the tradition I mean - it's a real education to listen to him mold the tune but still sound incredibly within the tradition). So he might play a fairly standard version first time round - then takes off from there. We hang on if we can (some of us pound out the usual version - others try to follow where he's going!).
Listening to as many versions of a tune as possible is also really helpful for me. I can hear all the ways the tune can be bent and still sound like it's the same tune being played. I of course mean listening to good players - some of the best in the tradition. Then eventually, as you progress as a player, you'll start to hear those kinds of variations in your head and know if you can get away with trying one here or there as the session is rolling along....
I guess in a nutshell, the answer is listen, listen, listen and eventually it will make sense....
HTH
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by thejigisup
Re: What makes it "right?"
browndog - It's You who was RIGHT !
< ability to listen to and suss out such a minor, but profound variation to a tune.> It's You who was RIGHT !
When you can do this, you can really get a grasp of what ITM is really about - well done..
jim,,,
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: What makes it "right?"
Oops sorry - just re-read your post and saw you didn't want us to say "listen". But unfortunately it's the right answer to your question LOL
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by thejigisup
Re: What makes it "right?"
Ian, I should clarify what I meant by "native" players. Not "Irish" or "from Ireland,", no what I meant was any player who has this music as his or her dominant genre. For example, I can play old timey, rock, and bluegrass, but my dominant musical language is Irish traditional. It's the music I've been most immersed in, for decades.
Similar to language. When I was three, we moved from the US to Italy. When I was six, we moved back to the States. In the meantime, I became fluent in Italian. The utter immersion is what did it. I thought and dreamt in Italian for those years. The locals were often very confused over why this little Italian kid (me) was hanging out with two very American adults (my parents). I sounded completely "native."
In spite of learning Irish music as a suburban Yank kid, and playing it for decades here in the shamrock-studded glens and gorse-lined lanes [heavy sarcasm] of Montana, I've been told by many "native" players that my playing sounds totally native.
So it's not about where you live or your ethnicity. Just about how well and thoroughly you immerse, mimic, repeat.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: What makes it "right?"
If there had not been a Micho Russel and someone now started playing like Micho Russel would it be right ?
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by David50
Re: What makes it "right?"
What makes it "right?"
I usually get away with a bunch of flowers.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by ormepipes
Re: What makes it "right?"
Tunes played right have a certain je ne sais quoi, but I don't know what it is...
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: What makes it "right?"
Thanks for all the comments. Here's the summary of what I think I read:
1) Listen enough and you'll know. i.e. absorb the language.
2) Phrasing is important, but varies constantly in performance so only a few general guidelines can be suggested.
3) It's right when its right, and otherwise it isn't. (Yogi Berra is here somewhere!)
4) I'm happy to know others have real problems with articulating this stuff.
As some of you know I've been a musician for about 60 (egad!) years and have considerable experience in lots of styles. The Irish stuff remains difficult for me to get a handle on. Baroque, no problem. Classic, no problem. Most (but not all) jazz, no problem. Old Timey, more of a problem, but not as much as Irish. Sure I can play phrases across bar lines and discover internal motivic material that can be articulated. Sure I know fairly well how to stress the various dance rhythms and (usually) avoid the deadly way some folks beat Irish stuff to death. And, fortunately, I can pick things up from others once I have a generic version of a tune under hand and can join with others.
But, since my training has revolved around being analytical about music I'm always looking for more and better explanations. I've gotten some here that I'll continue to read and reflect upon and greatly appreciate all the comments.
Someone remarked that it is easier to say what is wrong. OK. Chew on that for a bit.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by cboody
Re: What makes it "right?"
I don't usually post here, as am still pretty much a beginner in this music, but I have to say that I was told about nyah and lift until I thought I knew what to listen for, and listen I do, while I run, exercise, ride horses, work, etc., but it wasn't until a fine fiddler moved to Montana (yes, Montana, the UNmecca of Irish music!) did I start to understand. It wasn't until I played next to her that I truly understood what it all meant. She's played Irish music since she was small, learning her tunes on fiddle from a piper, spending much time in Ireland, etc., and still every time we play a tune, I think to myself, "so THAT'S how it's supposed to sound!" Every once in a while I can sort of pick it up and fit with her for moments at a time, and it's thrilling to me. The down side is it makes me realize how far I have to go before I truly get it. sigh. Anyway, for what it's worth, for me personally, actually playing with someone who has the feel was the clincher for me. (and, yes, you can feel sorry for her having to play next to me! : )
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by swillybay
Re: What makes it "right?"
No Swilly I dont feel sorry for her.Your post shows how much you understand and feel the tune. You will be good and I imagine she realises this.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: What makes it "right?"
It's always good to be playing with someone who's listening, and you can always learn from someone who's listening. It doesn't matter how you rank compared to them or vice versa - two people playing music and really listening to each other will have a good time at it.
On the other hand, it doesn't matter if someone's a rank beginner or has more chops than a Finnish lumberjack, if they're not listening to what's going on around them, they're no fun at all.
Gosh, that's me agreeing with tab twice in a row. I wonder what's going on here?
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What makes it "right?"
You are learning Jon..
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: What makes it "right?"
Maybe that's it.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What makes it "right?"
I have a sticker on my mandolin case: "Who feels it knows it."
You can *think* about this stuff till well after the cows come home, but you won't exude nyah and pulse until you feel it yourself.
I agree--playing with someone who has it is the best way to feel it and play it yourself.
Immerse, mimic, repeat. Eventually, you won't be merely "mimicking." You'll be playing with your own "right" nyah.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: What makes it "right?"
>>I have a sticker on my mandolin case: "Who feels it knows it."
That's what I'm talkin' about.
Oh, you meant...
never mind.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What makes it "right?"
I was talking about this after a session last night with someone who asked. I called it digestion then recreation, not just 'merely mimicking' like Will said. Of course, this led to all sorts of tipsy toilet jokes, so in keeping with that same spirit:
"Who feels it knows it"
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=that%27s%20what%20she%20said
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What makes it "right?"
So how do we tell the difference between someone who speaks the language and an actor who has had a good language coach ? (picking up on Will's "dominant musical language is Irish traditional" higher up and his "won't merely be mimicking" just above).
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by David50
Re: What makes it "right?"
sorry " ...accent coach..."
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by David50
Re: What makes it "right?"
>>I have a sticker on my mandolin case: "Who feels it knows it."
I'm sorry but that's just wrong Will,
putting stickers on your mandolin case ..
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Bren
Re: What makes it "right?"
David, given time and continued immersion, you won't be able to tell the difference. That's the point. Anyone can sound "right," no matter what their original music was. Just like language, the earlier you start and the more completely immersed you are, the more "native" you will sound. Unless you choose to hang on to idioms and inflections from the previous music.
It's all about getting the"right" sound in your head as the dominant sound. And then letting it out.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: What makes it "right?"
OK, no need to answer, wrong question. Should be: Is it better to speak the language with a funny accent than to be a perfect mimic ?
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by David50
Re: What makes it "right?"
Oh, crossed. There was a relevant answer. Thanks.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by David50
Re: What makes it "right?"
We don't if they are good enough.
For the first time the other night, I saw Colin Farrell in "In Bruges" speaking in his real (and very Dub) accent. I can't remember the first movie I saw him in but he was doing an American accent and I had no idea that he was Irish or anything else.
On the other hand, Mel Gibson's Scottish accent in Braveheart is not quite as convincing.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What makes it "right?"
In these discussions I keep being reminded of a radio discussion about a Shakespeare production. It was noted that an actor showed some traces of his regional north American accent. Someone wondered if it might have been just as 'correct' as what UK audiences were used to.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by David50
Re: What makes it "right?"
I've seen American productions of Shakespeare's plays where everyone talked in their normal accent. That's better than a bunch of crap fake English accents (unless your whole cast could convincingly fake an English accent).
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What makes it "right?"
>>I should clarify what I meant by "native" players. Not "Irish" or "from Ireland,", ... any player who has this music as his or her dominant genre....Irish traditional. It's the music I've been most immersed in, for decades.
>>Just about how well and thoroughly you immerse, mimic, repeat.
Don't worry, Will, I wasn't trying to resurrect that old epic. You'll start suspecting I'm a T..ll next
One frustrating thing here, if course, is that for all of the talk about 'feel', there's precious little opportunity to *hear* what anyone means in person.
By your definition, I too am a native player, though 'nyah' is a new one on me. Anyone care to explain?
I can listen to a tune being played and make a reasonably good judgement at its quality, but producing it on the mando. is another thing entirely. Not being defeatist - I'm working hard on it - but I just hear, I don't seem to be able to anyalyse/deconstruct like that.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by ian stock
Re: What makes it "right?"
Ian, I deconstruct *only* to help people learn who don't seem ready to get it through just listening. Seems these are the folks most likely to come looking for music lessons. Go figure.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: What makes it "right?"
Fair point, Will. However, some one somewhere else on here made the comment that Irish music can be pretty impenetrable - ironic really, when the tunes are, on the face of it so simple...
I am not great musical theorist, but in my time I have also played in wind bands and sung in choirs, without any more than a fairly rudimentary theoretical training, and still been able to identify the 'mechanics' of those genres without too much problem. Bach counterpoint? Yes I can understand (a bit of) how it works...Irish music, the defining qualities escape me in rational terms, even though I know them when I hear them.
Perhaps it's a problem caused by, of necessity, mostly having raised myself only on recordings rather than live players, and then mostly of bands where the overall sound masks the effect of any one instrument.
Perhaps also of playing an instrument which I am increasingly sure doesn't capture those characteristics particularly willingly...? Makes it harder to imitate the definitive sound...
I suspect that this is also both a defining characteristic, and perhaps an Achilles' heel, of an oral tradition - it's hard to explain and hard to pass on.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by ian stock
Re: What makes it "right?"
Ian, I play these tunes on mandolin, too, but I far prefer the slurs and sustain of a fiddle and bow for this music. So if you're listening to a lot of fiddlers and pipers and flute players, don't set your expectations too high of emulating all the twiddly bits and slurry bits those instruments can do. You simply can't get those same sounds on a mandolin. Though you can get in the vicinity by judicious use of triplets, smears, hammer ons and pull offs, etc.
On mandolin, I think the essential thing is to know when and where to accent the strong beats (those 1s and 3s I talked about above) and how to precisely time the notes in between in ways that create momentum, pulling you from one phrase to the next, and creating the phrasing in the first place.
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: What makes it "right?"
Will, I like what you say!
At last, some one has admitted that this music played on the mando. *will not* sound the same as on more traditional instruments. That takes some saying, given the strong, idiomatic nature of this music, and the strength of feeling that 'it must be done right'.
I do do most of the things you say, and it's starting to sound better. I took Ethical Blend's criticism of my recordings to heart - because he was right - and have worked hard at it, even if I can't quite make it work on recordings themselves yet...
But I also think he was judging against criteria that were maybe not entirely fair, by not allowing sufficiently for the nature of the instrument, which - let's face it - doesn't get used as lead instrument that often here.
The elephant in the room, of course, is the feeling that maybe I ought to give the fiddle a go, but it seems pretty daunting to be back at the foot of the mountain again...
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by ian stock
Re: What makes it "right?"
Ian, here's a clip of Three Mile Stone, with Marla Fibish on mandolin. Gives you some idea of what a good player can do with the pulse, never mind the limitations of a flat pick on high-tension double-course strings. The third tune, a reel, isn't Irish, but the style is close enough to sense how the lift and momentum can be applied to Irish reels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE0c5j-NKSY
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: What makes it "right?"
that's a lovely clip there Will. Just the ticket. thanks for putting that up, not many views of it.
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: What makes it "right?"
I agree - lovely playing, as are the tantalising short clips on her own website. I think I am heading in the right direction; what still escapes me is how to get that 'bouncy' sound - despite my best efforts, I've never really found it...
Ian
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by ian stock
Re: What makes it "right?"
I should mention that Marla will be teaching Irish mandolin at Portal Irish Music Week in Arizona, October 13-17, 2011 (I'm helping organize the event).
)
Ian, from my own attempts to play the tunes well on mandolin, what seems to create the pulse is small variations in volume--accenting the strong beats by playing them louder--while backing off the attack on neighboring notes. It's absolutely crucial that you understand *which beats* need emphasis and which ones don't to get the "right" pulse. Marla does that very well, but she's even more savvy with her timing--managing the duration of each note, again with the purpose of creating pulse and lift. The strong beats tend to be longer (although clipping one short now and then and leaving silence after also works), and the beats immediately after a strong beat are almost always shortened, sometimes to near non-existence (e.g., the second note in a 1-2-3 of a jig).
All of this is easier to pick up by playing with someone who already has the pulse and feel you're seeking. I'd recommend learning a tune or three off of Marla's clips and then play along, note for note, really listening closely to her dynamics and timing. That will get you farther than any amount of written advice. (Not that I mind typing...
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: What makes it "right?"
as someone who is learning to play this music and the mandolin, I would like to say a big thank you to all the contributors to this excellent thread -
ta guys, Steve
# Posted on November 11th 2010 by selston steve