Over the years, I've played a variety of melody and rhythm/accompaniment instruments. I've rather tended to let the latter go to seed , for the simple reason that I found it rather fruitless just strumming away to myself without anything to accompany.
Luckily, I''ve recently hit on the answer, in the form of my little Tascam recorder, which means that I can practice and develop chord sequences, rhythm changes etc. while laying down a track, and things are improving quite nicely.
Just wondering how others deal with the 'solo accompanist' issue.
i like to do the same with a recorder but it too reaches a saturation point. Its difficult to really get good practice unless you are playing regularly with a variety of musicians, playing a good variety of tunes. After a good bit of experience most unfamiliar tunes can be interpreted quickly but there'll always one that will catch you out that's just part of it. Even playing melody is the seam its all well playing at home but its the pure experience that counts in the end
"...much better to practise along with a real person either recorded or live"
Are you suggesting, Music Reader, that Ian is not a real person?
As regards practising along to *another* real person - well, there's no problem playing along to a recording, so long as it doesn't already have accompaniment (unless you just want to copy another accompanist); but *practising* along wih live musicians can be problematic, as it means finding a competent musician who is willing to take the time to play tunes whilst being accompanied by someone's accompaniment experiments and possibly wrong chords.
If Ian is a competent tune player himself, then I can see nothing wrong with using recordings of his own playing as a vehicle for his backing practice.
"Its difficult to really get good practice unless you are playing regularly with a variety of musicians, playing a good variety of tunes."
Absolutely, but that's what a backer does when he/she plays in sessions. Playing along to yourself is handy for learning new chord shapes, runs, picking patterns etc. - a session is where you *put them into practice.*
One of my favorite CD's when I was first learning to back tunes:
Paddy Glackin's 1st album, "An Fidhil" (which is now in print, I think). A good amount of fairly common tunes, along with some more out of the way Donegal gems. No accompaniment to speak of (save for some LOVELY harpsichord on 1 or 2 tracks, f-in brilliant!). Nice stuff.
Well, here's what I do.
I lay down a guitar track on a Boss RC20 looper pedal, based on what I think the melody is doing, and play on top of it to practice - either slowly or at speed.
Why do I do this?
For a couple of reasons - 1) it allows me to practice the tune until I know it, and 2) it gives me a chance to work out chord voices and variations that don't obstruct/detract from the tune.
So, if you're a lead player and also know how to play a rhythm instrument I'd recommend that you find a way to play with yourself (literally). The other side of this is that you may find that session players have a different interpretation of the backing than you do - and you may learn from that - or, if they're bad players, it may be extremely frustrating to hear one thing in your head and another coming out of the insufficient accompaniment.
I totally understand the frustration of playing guitar in a void - without lead players, but it's important to be scrappy, and listen to other guitar/bouzouki/piano players and figure out what they're doing - and try to adapt it to your playing. Listen to lead players and decide where the changes occur and what they are. Analyze the changes - rather than assume that they're standard 1,4,5, or 1, 2m, 5, for example. Do this on recordings, videos, youtube snippets. By doing this you, essentially, invent your own sound and style, and will ultimately become comfortable with your instrument and abilities.
"i like to do the same with a recorder but it too reaches a saturation point. Its difficult to really get good practice unless you are playing regularly with a variety of musicians, playing a good variety of tunes. After a good bit of experience most unfamiliar tunes can be interpreted quickly but there'll always one that will catch you out that's just part of it. Even playing melody is the seam its all well playing at home but its the pure experience that counts in the end"
Fergal; Thats my take, you can practice to all the recordings you like, after the first play through you know just what is about to happen on the rewind and so no surprises. Thats not to say that this form of practice is without value, just of limited value.
Think about learning a tune: You get with your pals after picking a tune up from a recording or the dots abc's etc they then get to your tune in the set and what do you know, it's different to the way you've played it, they play through it a few times with you frantically busking along until you know how to fix it for next time.
For me the thing about accompaniment is to practice in the moment when tunes are being played. I know this runs counter to much of the advice advanced here> eg,a backer should KNOW the tune before he leaves his house, should buy everyone a drink before the axe comes out of the case, should be able to play the tune on a proper pure drop instrument, should be quiet when the session leader gives him a Paddington hard stare etc. Just learn to keep it quiet and when to sit out but if people here you coming on, they'll put up with you.
I would just turn up where music was being played and play where I could. Eventually stacking up the known territory, keys rhythms etc.... I think you have to get it wrong before you can get it right, I'm not saying anybody else will notice your getting it wrong, but that chord you knew would fit in just there as the tune is calling out for it, but you failed to find it in the moment and now the moment has passed and we're into the next tune. Never mind nail it next week or the week after, keep at it until you have it. This sort of thing is hard to practice on your jack and a recording will give no guarantee that you'll manage to nail it in any of the contextual presentations it could appear in next time your confronted with it.
As a lad I had countless little things I would keep in my mind to sort out from one session to the next and after a while you find you have them sorted out. A good example was when Altan recorded The Guns (of the magnificent seven, called Finton McManus's by Altan) all of a sudden everybody is playing it and it's a doddle to back with the exception of the 3rd part. I had even learned to play the tune on the mandolin before I actually managed to back it, the learning of the tune didn't actually help. One time at a session where some big guns were about I found myself backing a set when this tune came up and there I was about to be exposed as a charlatan, well I made a mistake and missed a beat on the dreaded part and made a point of repeating the mistake at the right point in the repeats, the big cheese who'd been swooning everyone with their playing told me I was one of the few backers he'd met who could back the tune properly, me, I said nothing.... I still use the same mistake whenever that tune comes up. If I was smarter and actually had a copy of the recording at the time maybe I'd have got it from there but for me it was a combination of trial, error and bare faced tenacity.
>>This sort of thing is hard to practice on your jack and a recording will give no guarantee that you'll manage to nail it in any of the contextual presentations it could appear in next time your confronted with it.
Fair point - but that assumes that your only reason for accompanying is for session work. O.K., I know that is what this board is about, but accompaniment is a skill in its own right, (at least as) as valid in a band or on a recording as in a session.
I enjoy playing both, normaly about 80/20 melody/accompaniment but making my own recordings has forced me to improve my game in the latter. And laying down tunes has forced me to discover new runs and inversions that I can now try out in sessions too, and so get away from the readed three chord trick more easily.
More bizarrely, the intial rush of enthusiasm for the recorder made me go out and find a load more tunes. I confess I did it by trawling through the dots, and even recorded from them (Sinner that I am...). but I can now put my own recordings on in the car, and am learning the tunes the 'proper' way from myself.
Unexpectedly, the recording has become as much a means of learning a tune as preserving the end product. Well, it's better than nothing...
I do that to, to be fair Ian, the firewire box and russian mike are often used features of my wee corner in my living room.
I found that the pressure of being on the spot, and hopefully in the zone, means that you have to rationalise your playing in the moment. It forces you to make the best of it you can. Any little improvements you feel you could make have to be deferred till next time through the tune or next time your having a tune and that one comes up. Of course some mechanical things, like accurate fingering and the like can be nailed at home through aimless repetition, lol.
I think the key accompaniment skill is being able to deal with whats presented in as tasteful a way as you can. So to make the "aimless" bit less aimless IMO there is no better way than practicing on the fly with others.
Or as LQJ says; "the revolution want be televised.................. The revolution.........
I like to multi track, so I definitely record some solo tunes on fiddle or whistle to practice with. I also put on a record and play along with that, and sometimes I just take the guitar and work on the melodies. That never hurts.
I also work on different textures and other strummer stuff while I lilt the melody. Not that I would lilt in the company of other musicians, but singing the tune is good practice for your melody playing, and singing gives you something to accompany, so what the heck.
Good to know I'm not the only one doing it this way. I must say that it works fine for me, though no doubt I'm losing the melodic subtleties of learning from someone else.
I spent most of my time lerning this music playing along to records, in fact the ambition of playing along to the Bothies was what drove me for quite a while. However, a less fortunate by-product is that many of the sets of tunes I know are basically recorded classics, which is hardly original.
Something else that is currently receiving attention...
Multitracking (I resisted the urge to call it 'playing with yourself') is certainly useful for working out chord progressions and picking patterns. But it won't teach you how to become a good backing musician. 90% of that is down to developing ESP, learning to read your soloist's body language, and generally being able to sense when he is going to change tempo or do something unexpected, before it happens. Those skill you can only develop by sitting next to a live performer.
Aimless accompaniment practice
Aimless accompaniment practice
Over the years, I've played a variety of melody and rhythm/accompaniment instruments. I've rather tended to let the latter go to seed , for the simple reason that I found it rather fruitless just strumming away to myself without anything to accompany.
Luckily, I''ve recently hit on the answer, in the form of my little Tascam recorder, which means that I can practice and develop chord sequences, rhythm changes etc. while laying down a track, and things are improving quite nicely.
Just wondering how others deal with the 'solo accompanist' issue.
Ian
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
yes thats ok, but much better to practise along with a real person either recorded or live
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
i like to do the same with a recorder but it too reaches a saturation point. Its difficult to really get good practice unless you are playing regularly with a variety of musicians, playing a good variety of tunes. After a good bit of experience most unfamiliar tunes can be interpreted quickly but there'll always one that will catch you out that's just part of it. Even playing melody is the seam its all well playing at home but its the pure experience that counts in the end
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by FergalOH
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
"...much better to practise along with a real person either recorded or live"
Are you suggesting, Music Reader, that Ian is not a real person?
As regards practising along to *another* real person - well, there's no problem playing along to a recording, so long as it doesn't already have accompaniment (unless you just want to copy another accompanist); but *practising* along wih live musicians can be problematic, as it means finding a competent musician who is willing to take the time to play tunes whilst being accompanied by someone's accompaniment experiments and possibly wrong chords.
If Ian is a competent tune player himself, then I can see nothing wrong with using recordings of his own playing as a vehicle for his backing practice.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
"Its difficult to really get good practice unless you are playing regularly with a variety of musicians, playing a good variety of tunes."
Absolutely, but that's what a backer does when he/she plays in sessions. Playing along to yourself is handy for learning new chord shapes, runs, picking patterns etc. - a session is where you *put them into practice.*
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
"Just wondering how others deal with the 'solo accompanist' issue."
I seem to have dealt with it by giving up playing accompaniment.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
>>Are you suggesting, Music Reader, that Ian is not a real person?
Well. I'm not a troll, that's for sure
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
One of my favorite CD's when I was first learning to back tunes:
Paddy Glackin's 1st album, "An Fidhil" (which is now in print, I think). A good amount of fairly common tunes, along with some more out of the way Donegal gems. No accompaniment to speak of (save for some LOVELY harpsichord on 1 or 2 tracks, f-in brilliant!). Nice stuff.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by jaychoons
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
Good comeback, Ian!!!
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
Well, here's what I do.
I lay down a guitar track on a Boss RC20 looper pedal, based on what I think the melody is doing, and play on top of it to practice - either slowly or at speed.
Why do I do this?
For a couple of reasons - 1) it allows me to practice the tune until I know it, and 2) it gives me a chance to work out chord voices and variations that don't obstruct/detract from the tune.
So, if you're a lead player and also know how to play a rhythm instrument I'd recommend that you find a way to play with yourself (literally). The other side of this is that you may find that session players have a different interpretation of the backing than you do - and you may learn from that - or, if they're bad players, it may be extremely frustrating to hear one thing in your head and another coming out of the insufficient accompaniment.
I totally understand the frustration of playing guitar in a void - without lead players, but it's important to be scrappy, and listen to other guitar/bouzouki/piano players and figure out what they're doing - and try to adapt it to your playing. Listen to lead players and decide where the changes occur and what they are. Analyze the changes - rather than assume that they're standard 1,4,5, or 1, 2m, 5, for example. Do this on recordings, videos, youtube snippets. By doing this you, essentially, invent your own sound and style, and will ultimately become comfortable with your instrument and abilities.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Toppish
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
PS I should add that I live in a vacuum - no sessions within 2 hours, but a few great players that I'm glad to work with.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Toppish
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
"i like to do the same with a recorder but it too reaches a saturation point. Its difficult to really get good practice unless you are playing regularly with a variety of musicians, playing a good variety of tunes. After a good bit of experience most unfamiliar tunes can be interpreted quickly but there'll always one that will catch you out that's just part of it. Even playing melody is the seam its all well playing at home but its the pure experience that counts in the end"
Fergal; Thats my take, you can practice to all the recordings you like, after the first play through you know just what is about to happen on the rewind and so no surprises. Thats not to say that this form of practice is without value, just of limited value.
Think about learning a tune: You get with your pals after picking a tune up from a recording or the dots abc's etc they then get to your tune in the set and what do you know, it's different to the way you've played it, they play through it a few times with you frantically busking along until you know how to fix it for next time.
For me the thing about accompaniment is to practice in the moment when tunes are being played. I know this runs counter to much of the advice advanced here> eg,a backer should KNOW the tune before he leaves his house, should buy everyone a drink before the axe comes out of the case, should be able to play the tune on a proper pure drop instrument, should be quiet when the session leader gives him a Paddington hard stare etc. Just learn to keep it quiet and when to sit out but if people here you coming on, they'll put up with you.
I would just turn up where music was being played and play where I could. Eventually stacking up the known territory, keys rhythms etc.... I think you have to get it wrong before you can get it right, I'm not saying anybody else will notice your getting it wrong, but that chord you knew would fit in just there as the tune is calling out for it, but you failed to find it in the moment and now the moment has passed and we're into the next tune. Never mind nail it next week or the week after, keep at it until you have it. This sort of thing is hard to practice on your jack and a recording will give no guarantee that you'll manage to nail it in any of the contextual presentations it could appear in next time your confronted with it.
As a lad I had countless little things I would keep in my mind to sort out from one session to the next and after a while you find you have them sorted out. A good example was when Altan recorded The Guns (of the magnificent seven, called Finton McManus's by Altan) all of a sudden everybody is playing it and it's a doddle to back with the exception of the 3rd part. I had even learned to play the tune on the mandolin before I actually managed to back it, the learning of the tune didn't actually help. One time at a session where some big guns were about I found myself backing a set when this tune came up and there I was about to be exposed as a charlatan, well I made a mistake and missed a beat on the dreaded part and made a point of repeating the mistake at the right point in the repeats, the big cheese who'd been swooning everyone with their playing told me I was one of the few backers he'd met who could back the tune properly, me, I said nothing.... I still use the same mistake whenever that tune comes up. If I was smarter and actually had a copy of the recording at the time maybe I'd have got it from there but for me it was a combination of trial, error and bare faced tenacity.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
>>This sort of thing is hard to practice on your jack and a recording will give no guarantee that you'll manage to nail it in any of the contextual presentations it could appear in next time your confronted with it.
Fair point - but that assumes that your only reason for accompanying is for session work. O.K., I know that is what this board is about, but accompaniment is a skill in its own right, (at least as) as valid in a band or on a recording as in a session.
I enjoy playing both, normaly about 80/20 melody/accompaniment but making my own recordings has forced me to improve my game in the latter. And laying down tunes has forced me to discover new runs and inversions that I can now try out in sessions too, and so get away from the readed three chord trick more easily.
More bizarrely, the intial rush of enthusiasm for the recorder made me go out and find a load more tunes. I confess I did it by trawling through the dots, and even recorded from them (Sinner that I am...). but I can now put my own recordings on in the car, and am learning the tunes the 'proper' way from myself.
Unexpectedly, the recording has become as much a means of learning a tune as preserving the end product. Well, it's better than nothing...
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
I do that to, to be fair Ian, the firewire box and russian mike are often used features of my wee corner in my living room.
I found that the pressure of being on the spot, and hopefully in the zone, means that you have to rationalise your playing in the moment. It forces you to make the best of it you can. Any little improvements you feel you could make have to be deferred till next time through the tune or next time your having a tune and that one comes up. Of course some mechanical things, like accurate fingering and the like can be nailed at home through aimless repetition, lol.
I think the key accompaniment skill is being able to deal with whats presented in as tasteful a way as you can. So to make the "aimless" bit less aimless IMO there is no better way than practicing on the fly with others.
Or as LQJ says; "the revolution want be televised.................. The revolution.........
Will be live".
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
I know people who are that good at aimless accompaniment, they must practise it.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by geoffwright
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
I like to multi track, so I definitely record some solo tunes on fiddle or whistle to practice with. I also put on a record and play along with that, and sometimes I just take the guitar and work on the melodies. That never hurts.
I also work on different textures and other strummer stuff while I lilt the melody. Not that I would lilt in the company of other musicians, but singing the tune is good practice for your melody playing, and singing gives you something to accompany, so what the heck.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
Good to know I'm not the only one doing it this way. I must say that it works fine for me, though no doubt I'm losing the melodic subtleties of learning from someone else.
I spent most of my time lerning this music playing along to records, in fact the ambition of playing along to the Bothies was what drove me for quite a while. However, a less fortunate by-product is that many of the sets of tunes I know are basically recorded classics, which is hardly original.
Something else that is currently receiving attention...
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
Multitracking (I resisted the urge to call it 'playing with yourself') is certainly useful for working out chord progressions and picking patterns. But it won't teach you how to become a good backing musician. 90% of that is down to developing ESP, learning to read your soloist's body language, and generally being able to sense when he is going to change tempo or do something unexpected, before it happens. Those skill you can only develop by sitting next to a live performer.
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by skreech
Re: Aimless accompaniment practice
Right on, skreech. The difference between live and Memorex is orders of magnitude.
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by Bob himself