How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Have you every counted the cost of playing in a session.
1. The big one is the instrument, How much?
2. String etc.?
3. Travel?
4 Refreshments
If you can think of any more please add.
To the Jenius who can spell musician.
Neat writing is a fools accomplishment. It is not how neat you write you or your spelling ability that counts but the content of your message. So for all you who wish to correct my spelling do so but have something productive to add to you trivals games of spot the spelling mistake. .
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
No, the big one is not any of those things. It's all the time spent
practicing/playing/learning tunes at home instead of doing other
things with your life.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I don't give a bloody monkey's mickey about the costs. It's my hobby. My main interest. It's what raises me out of this vale of tears for a few hours a week. What a pointless and abrasive first post. And neat writing, by which I assume you mean having the good manners to do your best to type good, clear English with decent spelling and punctuation, is not a fool's game. It's the mark of someone who respects the people who will have to read it. Innit.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Reply to my own thread It annoys me that we as "musicians " spent our time infighting instead of trying to unite and make some money from sessions. All pubs must pay the Union of song writer so much a year to allow musician to play the song writers material. This has come about in the last few years. Just like royalities tmust be paid to play music in a pub or shop the same applies if musicians plays music. What do we get nothing.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
If you are on a mission to advance the working conditions of musicians it is a noble mission but possibly the wrong forum. Many people here play for the fun of it. Ignore Steve and the rest of the English teachers here. You are right . It is what you say and not how you spell it and phrase it that is interesting.This place is full of boring middle class highly educated wafflers!
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
What I don't get is why noone pays me to sit on the bus. I pay good money to do this every single day. If I didn't sit on the bus, it would be empty. I say we should unite and get paid for sitting on the bus.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
It costs me zero. The instruments are paid for years ago, the pub is on the way home from work, and the beer is free. Cheapest hobby I've ever had. What is your point? Be thankful you have a session at all, and hopefully a supportive pub owner, I certainly am.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I meant the first post in this thread, obviously. Duh. You wanna make dosh out of playing in sessions? Good on you. You go to a nice pub that accommodates you and you're allowed to play quite informally for your own pleasure and for anyone who happens to want to share your pleasure. Ask the landlord for free beer and good luck to you. Ask for dough and it's bye bye to you. That's the real world and it's not bad at all. I might just add that class warriors don't go down too well in sessions either, a bit like talking religion at the 19th hole not going down too well. Maybe that's why tabbo don't go to no sessions no more. Heheh.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Playing in a session isn't about entertaining the public. You make some awful assumptions when you post here. Every single one of your posts has been self-obsessed and abrasive. What is your problem?
If I may speculate. jmccy is either an anonymous but interested session musician, or a member of thesession.org with more than one user name, or someone who has little interest in playing in sessions, but great interest in internet forums.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Here's a better tip for reducing the spelling comments: learn to write. If you don't care enough about what you're saying to say it in standard English, why would anyone else care enough about it to read it?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Jon Kiparsky.. Another professor. If someone cares for the muisic that should be enough for them to gain respect here. It should not be neccessary to have to please educated snobs who dont even realise they are just that. Musicians dont have to have education and many of my favourite musicians would never be able to post here as Jon and Steve would hold them up to ridicule and correct their poor English. All that should be neccessary is to be understood and love the music to be here just like a real session.
big_tab, I have a friend who holds no university degrees. He was always a slow reader. He taught himself how to read, more effectively, when he was in his thirties. He went on to develop a program to teach illiterate adults how to read. He is not highly educated. He is very good at communicating ideas, both oral & written. YMMV
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
It's more about the fact that the posts he's made are rude, misinformed, inaccurate, uncomprehending, and represent a point-of-view that has little to do with most peoples' understanding of what constitutes a traditional Irish music session, unless you happen to believe that every idiot with a guitar and a couple of Christy Moore songs is a welcome addition to your tune circle. There are plenty of other posters here who disregard the common rules of syntax and grammar - they don't get stick because they're not acting like ar seholes.
Besides, a respect for the rules of language is not all that different from a respect for the rules of music. Those who understand and attempt to abide by them, whether musicians or writers, tend to have the better conversations.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
So Ben your friend is a success. Many people are not and love music and should be just as welcome here as the Jeniuses. Dragut ,maybe you are right about the poster but lots of posters, me included, get sh*te for our poor English which is often just Hiberno English.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
"All pubs must pay the Union of song writer so much a year to allow musician to play the song writers material. This has come about in the last few years. Just like royalities tmust be paid to play music in a pub or shop the same applies if musicians plays music. What do we get nothing."
You appear to be defending this, tabbo. I don't detect much feel for the love of the music there. I recall your telling us that you don't go to sessions any more anyway, so possibly you could be a bit out of touch, I suggest. Your defence of poor English wouldn't be so bad had the original poster not attacked us for having a go at him for it before we'd even had the chance to. Wacky, I calls it!
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I dont need to defend anybody Steve. His point is very clear. He is trying to make a living out of music and is finding it tough. All I am attacking is you and Jon Kiparsky for finding fault with peoples ways of expressing themselves. The English didnt do a great job when they made us speak this language a hundred years ago . Its not really a long time ago. I deplore your attacks on this mans English.
big_tab, you miss my intent. My friend wanted to become a better reader. Frankly, the education system failed on this count. As a result of improving his reading ability he is motivated to help others to have a deeper understanding of written language. To read & write effectively.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
He attacked us in the original post before anyone had criticised him. That is hardly going to endear him to anyone (trust me, I'm a bloody expert). Now, tabbo, just tell me how many people make livings out of going to sessions. That is what he is on about. Maybe the odd one or two in Dublin but that would be about it. The bile in the post is totally misplaced. If he wants to make a living out of music he's picking the wrong music. You know that as well as I do. I'm assuming he's not Kevin Burke or Tommy Peoples or Frankie Gavin, of course. Exceptions can prove rules.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
big_tab, Unfortunately in the months before you joined the session, we had some very obnoxious people with very poor writing skills who made a really big stink on the website. Gave bad syntax and grammar a bad name. And those of us who have been here for a while have seen a steady stream of 'trolls' who come out of nowhere to post provocative discussion topics just to spin people up. And folks who had been kicked off the site coming back with different user names. It is no wonder we flinch when a new poster comes around, especially one who seems to be complaining about things from the very start...
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
As usual you are not correct Steve. Tonight hundreds of musicians all over Ireland have made between 50 and 120 euro playing in sessions.Almost every regular session in Ireland has 2 or 3 paid musicians.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
As for the idea of organizing session musicians to get paid - you're sort of missing the point of sessions. And this is coming from a die-hard union man who spent years trying to get the pub musicians in Portland to get better wages on their gigs.
If you really want to work on musicians' wages, you're going to want to get a little bit serious about it. First of all, to repeat myself, you're going to have to learn to write. You're talking about a public campaign for recognition of a wrong being done to a group of citizens, you'll never convince anyone if you can't be bothered to write correctly. (yes, I said correctly - there are standards for writing for public consumption, and they are normative. deal.) Second, you need to think about the thing you're trying to do. There's no money to be made at a session, except for what goes over the bar, and that's not a lot, typically, unless you're in Gogarty's or some place like that, where the session is a show. Then, too, if you get some coins out of the landlord, what do you do with them? Just divide them among anyone who shows up? That's not going to work, so you're just increasing the wage for the "session leaders" or the number of leaders, and that's going to lead to friction. Better not to go there, you've divided up your forces before you've even begun.
No, you want to look at paid gigs. If they're like anywhere else where you are, they don't pay enough to live on and you've got all sorts of working conditions issues to bring to the table. Double-bookings are always a problem, places that fail to pay or short you on the pay, then there's more specific issues (one place might not be good at throwing out the dangerous drunks, this would be a workplace saftey issue, another place might have a lousy sound system that you'd like to see fixed). Get your local musicians, make sure that you have some people who are highly respected as musicians and some people who are sound players but willing to do a lot of dog work, and start hammering out how you want to deal with the stuff.
I'd say start with a contract. Once musicians start insisting on working under a contract, it's a lot easier to deal with other issues, because at least you've got date and time and pay and some other details in writing. Small claims court (in the state) is pretty easy, and your bar gigs will qualify, so you've got a credible threat as well.
If you like, I can send you a sample contract that we distributed in Portland, this was a vetted document in Portland, Oregon and probably would serve anywhere else but there's no guarantees on that of course, check your local laws and legal beagles for specifics.
Once you've got people using contracts - this is FREE - you can start talking about what wages people are getting and how much you should be shooting for. This will be the hard part, and the real test of your skills as an organizer. If you can find a formula for pay that your musicians agree is fair and reasonable, you're something of a genius even if you can't spell the word.
In the meantime, you can start collecting data on what people are actually getting paid in the different rooms around town and try to make a gentleman's agreement among your members (now that they're using your contract and coming to your meetings, they're starting to feel like members of something) to the effect that you won't undercut the other players. If Jimmy's Pub has been paying $100 per man for a two-hour show, you don't go in and offer to do it for $75, or to stretch it out to three hours, that sort of thing. Keep the wage up for everyone, even if it costs you a gig in the short term. Stop the race to the bottom, that sort of thing.
And that's the brief introduction: how to be an organizer of musicians. Now go do that, and don't waste your time griping that nobody's getting paid in a session where nobody's asking to get paid.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Al ,as far as I remember you were one of my critics because of my terrible English.when I started posting here. I was livid with you as I just wanted to discuss the tunes. It took me a while to realise you were a proper,good guy. Attack,give out, explode here. I do. But please stop criticising peoples language skills. It is elitist ,snobbery.
Al, I don't think very many people have been kicked off the site. Some just switch between user names. I could be wrong.
big_tab, are you making with the claims again, & not letting us know where you received your information?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I see that there's been a lot of fur flying while I was writing that. As for the attacks on me, I'm saying nothing. For the attacks on Steve, I suppose I'll do the same, I'll let everyone reading this thread read the posts concerned and decide what they think, it's just not very interesting to argue about, and not a very interesting person to argue with.
I want to ask anyone concerned with keeping this civilised to please don't argue with the tab. He's a troll. He won't let go, he won't change his mind, and he likes to ratchet up to a big fight and then complain about the lack of civility. Don't feed the troll!
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
See.. Theres a word I never heard in Ireland..Troll. Another one you guys use here..Numpty.. I dont jump in and criticise this language Jon. You call me a troll and I call you a divisive elitist wannabe intellectual. I dont know what a troll is.
I know big_tab. Why do you think I asked?
Jon, you answered the question (whatever the question was) quite well. Cheers!
Goodnight, I'm going to listen to a couple of slip jigs I downloaded earlier. Slow connection off YouTube.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Ben thats twice now you have confused me . I said I have only seen the word here and never heard it in Ireland. Maybe if you read my posts you wouldnt have to ask these questions.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
If you don't know what something is it's better to find out than to glory in your ignorance. There's this thing called 'Google'. They've even got it in the land of stolen apostrophes. Musha God love 'em.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
If you don't like people correcting you, challenging you, provoking you, then stop posting on a 'discussion' board. If you don't like being treated like a troll, then stop trolling.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
You said if someone doesn't like being corrected they shouldn't be on a "discussion" board. That assumes your right to correct someones language ability and that to me is elitism of the highest degree.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
No offence at all Ben . It is a discussion. It is important that everyone should be welcome here and the only criticism should be for peoples posts and not how they are written.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
When I was involved in entertaining the public it cost almost nothing. Cheap guitar, tin whistle, my voice. That's it. Luckily the mandolin player owned a PA! Demos can be made almost for nothing and you don't have to do a lot of advertising/press kit to get pub jobs. The biggest expense was gas. I guess the most I've ever spent was for a Marshall head and cabinet back in the punk rock days....had to sell it, though, to get a friend over the border to Canada (does smuggling a friend out of country count as an expense?)but that's another story...I for one couldn't care less about grammer as long as you have something to say.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
There is no such assumption in my statement. If I offer an opinon in disagreement I am assuming the right to make a correction, but I have never corrected your or anybody else's accidental, lazy or deliberately incorrect use of the language.. I haven't criticized your use of language once, nor have I criticized anybody else's. I may not like your opinons, I may not credit them with much consideration or thought, but I wouldn't stoop so low as to imagine myself a superior individual simply because I have a better education. I think you might be confusing me with others who have offended you.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Dragut if there was no such assumption in your statement above I apologize wholeheartedly. I must have misunderstood it. I looked up your profile to see where you come from and stumbled upon an amazing website Ceolálainn. Incredible facility with the best of recordings. Is this yours or were you just providing a link?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Yeah, it's something I started a while ago after spending years begging, borrowing and stealing copies of out-of-print recordings. It'll be there until I get sent to prison for non-payment of fines imposed for copyright infringement I guess...
By the way, I don't correct peoples' use or misuse of the language for many reasons, but particularly because a number of my close friends are dyslexic, speak English as a foreign language, or because they only really think in their own dialects and couldn't speak 'The Queen's English' even if they wanted to... On the other hand, if someone wants to stir it up, I'm more than happy to make sure they get some on their hands...
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
If by stirring it up I can restrain the professors and their corrections I will be happy. Feel strongly about it. I have to go to bed . I look forward to spending time on your website tomorrow and I thank you in advance for the facility.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
All that ivory, all that ebony. The African Blackwood, the cane mahogany and walnut. The skin and leather. All those dead animals. The mines, the factory pollution, the carbon footprint.
How much does it cost to be a musician?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I think it's only Jazzers who pay to entertain the public, ha ha, only kidding.
If it's entertainment your after then you has to pay the money, see. I've a few grands worth of instruments all bought and paid for by entertaining over the years. Not depending on playing for money has meant I can indulge myself if I want to because I have a day job (don't worry I'm not for giving it up : )
So the answer is nothing.
When I dig into my pocket to go to a session or a tune with mates it's because it's my want and therefore the money comes from my personal entertainment allowance and if there are publics present their entertainment aint my responsibility so the cost is irrelevant, but usually only a few sundries if any....
Practice, well it keeps me out of the pub (but some could argue that perhaps my time would have been better spent on the lash, but hey ho.............. form a little straight line)
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
When I read the title I thought this would be a completely different thread, on the lines of "Would it hurt you to play Danny Boy or The Fields Of Athenry once in a while to please the public ?" or something like that.
Steve Shaw's first reply was absolutely spot on. Yes, it's a big part of what rings my chimes, turns me on, gives me my friends and my social life. The cost is minimal by comparison.
And as for those who think it's not essential to write in correct english and spell properly; or think it's a sign of your proletarian qualities not to; haven't you ever heard of inverse snobbery ? Trolls, one and all.
And haven't you got Spellcheck ? Mine is constantly reminding me of my typos.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
If anybody is still around on this overly-long thread:
Is making music about entertaining the public, entertaining oneself, or getting paid to play? I enjoy best having a day job and playing with my pals for the fun of it. I sleep better, have more time to play, and make more money that way.
As far as spelling and writing go, I agree with Steve Shaw. Whichever English philosopher said that without good writing there is no good thought was absolutely right.
And there are these quotes:
The act of putting pen to paper encourages pause for thought. This in turn makes us think more deeply about life, which helps us regain our equilibrium. ~Norbet Platt
The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug. ~Mark Twain
And, lest you think I am a pedant:
Do not put statements in the negative form.
And don't start sentences with a conjunction.
If you reread your work, you will find on rereading that a
great deal of repetition can be avoided by rereading and editing.
Never use a long word when a diminutive one will do.
Unqualified superlatives are the worst of all.
De-accession euphemisms.
If any word is improper at the end of a sentence, a linking verb is.
Avoid trendy locutions that sound flaky.
Last, but not least, avoid cliches like the plague.
~William Safire, "Great Rules of Writing"
And just one more:
I have a spelling checker
It came with my PC
It plainly marks for my revue
Mistakes I cannot sea
I've run this poem threw it
I'm sure your please to no,
It's letter perfect in it's weigh
My checker tolled me sew
-- anonymous
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
So what Pete from Guernsey and David are saying is that to discuss Trad music with them you 'd want to have proper English or they wont be impressed. For me if you know the music and want to share thoughts that should be enough to receive a correction free welcome here. I am again one of those referred to as a troll by Pete from Guernsey. I am o so hurt by this strong word!!
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I think it Depend's alot on Stage or Session,
where your Entertaining,
I'll Take Session first ... I do that Hopefuly
for fun when I go out - Free Drink help's or
I would'nt go, Simply because I could not afford
the price's they charge now which is just unreal..
< practicing/playing/learning tunes at home instead of doing other things with your life.>
That's what I prefer doing anyway,, Its part of the Hobbie, to Me.
Stage Is a Different Thing, There I would be more going to entertain the public, and expect something much more than a free pint - lol.
And thats where I would want the cost's String's, Rosin, Practiceing Tune set's, etc... And not Fun, to Me.
Also as I've said before you will Rarely,make any great money at ITM. '' And I speak from experiance on that one.''
As for spelling mistakes, there's likely plenty here, and I'll be going over this comment with with great care before posting -
{And Just corrected three already there - lol.}
Also I'll try to cut down - Shouting, and symbol's like,
ie/ = ,,, ???? .... / etc, e,t,c, ------ lol...
Still working on it - And even got pulled up be "Jeremy" when I started for useing FIDDLE4 and not fiddle4 -- lol....
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Back to the original post -
The cost to me has been incalculable, for me and for all mankind.
Having to give up being a wandering preacher, sharing the good word with the peoples of this wide world, leaving them in darkness and ignorance. The teachings I carried were more than mere comfort for the distraught and the lost, they truly carried the key to salvation for millions and millions who have found themselves in pain and confusion.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
No one's that bothered about anyone's (mis)use of language but leveling words like "intellectual, elitist snob" as an insult and celebrating sloppy writing and lack of education like it makes you a champion of the proletariat and somehow more authentic and in touch with the "common man" is just daft.
On behalf of intellectual, elitist snobs everywhere,
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
(1) In reply to the original question, yes. So what?
(2) "As usual you are not correct Steve. Tonight hundreds of musicians all over Ireland have made between 50 and 120 euro playing in sessions.Almost every regular session in Ireland has 2 or 3 paid musicians."
So what, I don't live in Ireland.
(3) I'm not good enough for anyone to consider paying me. Should I stop going to sessions? I'm good enough at what I do at work, so I do get paid for that.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
@big_tab this may have been answered before now, I gave up midway through the thread.
But on "troll" : You won't hear it used much in many places in the real world, but it is used on the web to mean poster that is looking to start a fight. It is really just the web-equivalent of sh*t-stirrer or mixer (if you sue those terms locally). Someone with no interesst in real discussion, just in getting a fight going. If you read any other forums on the web I'm sure you'll see "troll" used sooner or later it is nothing specific to the session.org.
The funny thing about many Trolls is that they frequently come to discussion groups to make the charges "look at you guys with no life, nothing bettre to do than read and post nonsense: get a life" And yet it seems to be an important element of the Trolls life to spend time on web forums telling other people they have no lives. Quite sad really.
The opening poster to this thread is an obvious Troll, I don't know why people are bothering to waste time answering him/her.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
BTW that is "obvious Troll" based on the half dozen or so threads started in a row, not on a single example. And on the confrontational manner in which the questions have been asked.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Having decent language skills is a lot like being a decent musician. The content of your message might be what's important, but if your skills are poor, you'll have trouble getting that content across--and it'll be your fault.
Of course people have different ways of expressing themselves. But when somebody plays a tune with bad rhythm, or writes without passable grammar, it suggests that they don't really care about getting their message across at all.
And if they don't care about their own message, why should I?
Jim, there is no better communicator in all of Mustardia than yourself. You wield the written words & various punctuation marks of language as a fine sculptor might chisel bits of marble away to reveal what is inside the rock ... As a fiddler giving pleasure to ears. You're just fun.
there were a few posts before my went up. It's nothing to do with the clumsy beggars who wish they knew how to express themselves. Sloppy is still sloppy. I'll include myself in that.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Georgi,,That is the same argument that has been used all through this discussion and it is patently untrue. Having good language skills is nothing like being a good musician.Good communication is like being s good musician. Plenty of passion and an ability to get your point across.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
@big_tab
I can't resist any longer: I am one of the language police, if by that you mean someone who has taken the trouble to learn how to write. I find people offensive who denigrate that effort by insisting that it was a waste of time.
No doubt you would disagree if someone said that playing the right notes in the right key didn't matter, as long as you liked music and meant well. Sloppy writing is the equivalent of turning up at a wedding in jeans and trainers: it shows lack of respect and a disregard for convention.
Rant over.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Gam. What you dont seem to understand is that many people who live and love this music have not had the education you have and should not be reminded of this by constant correction. I dont denigrade good language .I love it as much as music. I just dont think perfect English and good English are the same thing.And convention is something I am wary of too!
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Ben..You make the whole point of the discussion with that comment.Hopefully peoples ideas on the music are more important than the knowledge all you Jeniuses have on language.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Who cares? The OP isn't really interested in discussion, merely provocation. It's only right that its thread is hijacked and trolled as much as it likes to troll everyone else here. If you can find one meaningful, relevant, vaguely intelligent that it has said on this forum then you have better eyes than I.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Gosh, look what I miss by going to bed and then going out all day.
I wish to state that I don't believe that there are hundreds of people in Ireland making livings out of going to sessions, bearing in mind that there is a big difference between making a bit of dosh and making a living. I'm fully up for being proven wrong, of course. Assertions won't cut it. Cheers!
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
You don't have to say anything big_tab.
Does anyone else have any proof that hundreds of people, in Ireland, are making a living out of going to sessions?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
"Having good language skills is nothing like being a good musician.Good communication is like being s good musician. Plenty of passion and an ability to get your point across."--big_tab
You seem to be suggesting that language is unimportant for communication, which doesn't make sense. Perhaps I misunderstood you? (Was that my fault?)
For good communication you need decent communication skills, and if you're communicating with text, that means decent *language* skills. You don't need to be able to expound in iambic pentameter on the proper usage of the semicolon, but you do need to be able to put a sentence together in a way that makes sense if you're going to be understood.
It's exactly like music. For good music, you need good music skills. If you lack the skill to hold a steady beat, or stay in one key (or know when not to!), you'll confuse people; just like you'll confuse people if you can't get your point across cleanly in written text (with decent punctuation!).
Passion is fine, but caring about your meaning is not the same thing as communicating it successfully.
It's perfectly possible to write clearly without having had a "proper education". When people complain about someone's writing quality, it's a complaint about their writing, not their upbringing.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
You really don't know, do you, tabby? Where's the evidence? It's so far-fetched as to be absurd. Pub landlords in Ireland paying living wages to hundreds of session musicians, week in, week out, year in, year out. That's what "making a living" entails, not a hundred or two euros in the fist a few times a month. To hundreds of people too. T'ain't true, is it, mate!
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Steve .. You know nothing of the people playing this music if you think this is absurd. In Ennis,Doolin, Dingle, Galway, Westport, Kilfenora , Feakle, Belfast, Limerick,Cork, Kilkenny and Dublin alone there are hundreds of sessions with three musicians getting paid the same money that many people work hard for in other professions. Only a handfull of musicians could make a living without their session residencies.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
So how much per annum are these people making? Per annum, please? 'Twas you who asserted living wages. Not per gig or per week or per tourist season. Per annum, mate, please! Only that represents a living wage. Y'know, fifteen or twenty or twenty-five thousand euro per annum, year in, year out minimum. Actually, fifteen would hardly qualify come to think of it. Got any examples? Hundreds of them?? I note that no-one else is chiming in. Poo or off the pot de nuit with you!
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
E50 each and free pints once or twice a week doesn't constitute making a living in one of the most expensive countries in Western Europe. The dole is close to E200 per week. Combine the two and you might scrape a living, but it's not quite the same as 'making a living from playing in sessions'. Furthermore, many sessions have been knocked back in recent weeks and months. You're from Clare I believe - head out into the county and see for yourself how many sessions have closed down - look at how many country pubs have closed down. It's just not feasible to make a living from playing sessions, not now, and perhaps it never was.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Okay, on this one I have to lean towards Tabby's point. For a professional musician, E50 or $75 a week isn't a living, but it's an anchor, it's a constant piece of the income. On flush weeks, it's a new set of strings and maybe paying back a few (local currency units) borrowed, in lean weeks, it's groceries. On the whole, if you're trying to make a living as a musician, a steady, even a relatively low-paid one, is part of making a living. Leading a session is a good way to get that steady to happen.
You won't pay the rent with sessions, true, but it's a way to make sure you've got cash in pocket for the week.
Session playing and low-rent pub gigs for me were also ways to round up more lucrative gigs - wedding gigs often come out of pub dates, and I didn't even mean that to be ambiguous but I'll take it.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
The Session pubs are the only ones doing well in Counties Clare,Kerry and Galway and possibly all over the country. There are ten sessions in Ennis alone on a Sunday all employing 3 musicians and paying more than 50 euro .
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
If you lived in Bude and got 50 euro per day you'd have to do it for seven days a week, 52 weeks of the year to call it a living. Not just on a Sunday. Then there's that tax thang, of course... Are you telling me there are hundreds of people in Ireland doing this? I don't think so!
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Steve. I explained that it was more than 50 euro. Musicians can do as many gigs as they like in Doolin , Dingle, Galway etc. Just because you are not surrounded by the music does not make it right that those of us that are should be excluded on this forum.
"For a professional musician, E50 or $75 a week isn't a living, but it's an anchor, it's a constant piece of the income...Session playing and low-rent pub gigs for me were also ways to round up more lucrative gigs - wedding gigs often come out of pub dates..."
Right. Not that we get paid for sessions here in FL, but figure a four piece, regular Saturday night gig, $400+ , get you can. Do that weekly, add festivals, weddings, dances, whatever, there you go.
...but a once a week gig or session isn't going to pay the bills, but it's an anchor to a regular working musician's (meagre) income.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
...and in keeping with the grammar discussion on here my Firefox spell check thinks it's not in America because it made 'meagre' out of 'meager'. Go figger!
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Steve its not just in Ireland that there are hundreds of musicians doing 5 or 6 sessions a week. Chicago, Boston, New York,London , San Francisco all have sessions that give musicians employment!
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Wait, now you're saying there are hundreds of musicians in Ireland being paid more than 50 euro per session 5 or 6 days a week? & also in San Francisco? Huh?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
In Ireland ..Yes. The other places supplement the lean weeks when the gigs are not plentiful. This is not secret knowledge. Anybody that follows the tune would know this.
I'm inferring that you're suggesting there may be a significant number of musicians being well paid, in San Francisco, by playing 5 or 6 sessions per week. Is that what you're implying?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I live in Boston, and I'm pretty well tied-in to the session scene here. I only know one person in town that has as many as 4 session gigs a week... and she has always had a 9-5 day-job. Beyond her, I don't think I know anybody who does session gigs more than twice a week.
I can't think of anybody in town here who survives primarily on session gigs in town, at least not while paying rent and buying their own food/clothing. I've known a handful of people who have tried, but I can't think of anyone that managed to keep it up for more than a few months before turning around and getting a normal-paying day job.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I don't think Tab's talking about making a living solely on sessions, people. If he is, I think he's off his rocker, but I don't think he is.
George, I know one fellow in town who's holding down two sessions a week and plays weekends around the region. I don't say he survives on sessions, but I think it's safe to say that without the sessions he'd have to make up that money with something else. That is, the money is part of his overall "making a living" as a musician, and it makes it possible for him to gig with the band and so forth.
Does that distinction make sense to you?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I am going to weigh in to defend big_tab. When I first encountered him on the site, I gave him a hard time because I thought he was one of the rather unpleasant folks that had been causing problems on the site at that time, lurking under another false name. But since then, I have found him to be a pretty decent character, passionate about what he believes.
What I can't believe is that we haven't fully addressed the premise fo the original poster. He asks how much it costs us to entertain the public in his title, but then goes on to ask us about the cost of playing in a session. A few posters have touched on that, but from what I can see, the general consensus of folks on this board is the reason we play in sessions is primarily to entertain ourselves, and any entertaining of the public is incidental to that primary purpose.
So this thread is about how we need to get publicans to pay us for our trouble. Another thread is how the government should pay us. This doesn't sound like someone who plays music for the love of it, this sounds like a mercenary, out to make a buck. And an ill tempered mercenary at that.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
It is indeed repetitive and I have no wish to dwell. But to say that just working sessions pays hundreds of Irish people a living wage is just wrong. I'm not saying that this kind of employment can't make a significant contribution to income. Topping up the state benefits and/or the day job. I'm sure it does, and I'm sure that playing in sessions can also lead to gigs. But the question was about sessions. The bottom line is that any pub landlord who can afford to pay a sessioneer or three a living wage is not the type of landlord I've ever met.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
What you have met is limited and that is my problem always. Why would I come on here and tell lies?. Everybody in the music world knows all the music pubs play 3 musicians every night in the cities and ten months a year in the tourist towns. It is completely boring on this thread now. Thanks Al..
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Well I have to agree with Steve, but it dose all boil down to what one considers a living wage to be.
When I was starting a business 15 years ago I played 3 sometimes 4 times a week and managed to live off the proceeds as I couldn't pay myself from the business. I say managed to live which is not the same as living wage.
Also, these were gigs conducted in the same way as an informal session so closed to the public, just like some of the so called big money sessions in Ireland. I've been paid at sessions in my time but that kind of money wouldn't even cover my coal bill....
I could well imagine an aspirant musician hold up in a bedsit thinking they were doing alright on a couple of hundred €'s a week during in the tourist season, to my mind thats not a living.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Thanks for that. This is what raised me hackles: "there are hundreds of sessions with three musicians getting paid the same money that many people work hard for in other professions." I wager that very few people can do just sessions and achieve that. Plus gigs and/or plus benefits and/or plus day job maybe. It's a grey and murky world.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
. Ask the landlord for free beer and good luck to you. Ask for dough and it's bye bye to you. That's the real world and it's not bad at all.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Just because it happened to you Stephen doesn't mean it is another stupid rule.
I personally have been getting PAID for sessions for 20 years now, in a variety of pubs.
Take for nstance Sunday night. It ensures that the session will be on EVERY Sunday and if a passing tourist happens to ask if there is music anywhere, they can be told "Barneys". That is because the fee ensures someone will always be there.
Not a bad practice to have if you want a long lasting session at one venue.
Our current PAID Sunday venue has only been going ten years but the landlord has not given any sign of saying "bye bye".
Reminds me, must ask for a pay rise, it is about that time of year.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
He attacked us in the original post before anyone had criticised him. That is hardly going to endear him to anyone (trust me, I'm a bloody expert). Now, tabbo, just tell me how many people make livings out of going to sessions. That is what he is on about. Maybe the odd one or two in Dublin but that would be about it. The bile in the post is totally misplaced. If he wants to make a living out of music he's picking the wrong music. You know that as well as I do. I'm assuming he's not Kevin Burke or Tommy Peoples or Frankie Gavin, of course. Exceptions can prove rules.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
That's me, the exception to the rule.. From 1993 to 2002, playing at sessions was my income.
And no, I am not Kevin Burke.
It does help if you play an instrument the punters LOVE.........
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
There are many bodhran players making a good living out of playing sessions in Ireland. Dont know too many harmonica players doing gigs..Good man Bliss!
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
It's interesting to note that both the original poster, and big_tab, who seems to delight in aggravating, have no biography of any sort, have posted absolutely nothing about themselves, on this forum.
They could be male, female, transgender, or even merely computer programmes designed to annoy, living in a country cottage or university people in ivory towers posting trolling missives to amuse themselves and irritate the faithful.
We really have no idea.
I, on the other hand, have enough information here on site that several old friends I had lost touch with have re-connected with me through here, plus other people have recognised me at sessions from my description.
Do our annoying posters stay anonymous to avoid brickbats ?
You might think so, though I couldn't possibly comment !
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Actually, over time, both tab and bliss have revealed quite a bit about themselves, or had other people share information about them. They like to stir up debate, but I don't see them deliberately baiting people like some others around here, who go out of their way to be completely anonymous.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Actually, I don't mind people disagreeing with me.
It's not their fault they're wrong. Personally, I blame the parents.
Meanwhile my Other Half is leaving our regular session to go and see the Carolina Chocolate Drops. If they finish at a civilised time she might get back to the session for the last half hour.
Such lack of loyalty !
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I told you not very long ago in no uncertain terms, Blisso. I have played my bloody harmonicas in Ireland, in the Cobblestone even, and no-one, repeat no-one, told me to shut up or laughed. You don't know what you're talking about on this one.
And here comes tabbo with more inflated claims: "There are many bodhran players making a good living out of playing sessions in Ireland."
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Prof. I have heard yourself and Mick together and its a grand reedy sound that is lovely. One of the best tunes I ever heard was Eddie Clarke on Harmonica and Noel Hill one afternoon in Friels .
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I told you not very long ago in no uncertain terms, Blisso. I have played my bloody harmonicas in Ireland, in the Cobblestone even, and no-one, repeat no-one, told me to shut up or laughed. You don't know what you're talking about on this one.
And here comes tabbo with more inflated claims: "There are many bodhran players making a good living out of playing sessions in Ireland."
Define "many." Define "good living."
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Good to see you have finally "come out" as a pretentious know all, the Gospel according to Steve.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
There's nothing in my post that marks me out as a pretentious know-all. I told you something rather factual and honest about harmonica-playing in Ireland that I've told you before but to which you were not listening, and I asked tabbo to elaborate on his claim about bodhran players making livings. You don't agree so you decide to troll-post. Too bad.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Steve...You told us that you actually played in the Cobblestone and nobody laughed or told you to shut up. Its not quite the musician of the year award ..
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Touché Jon. Its a bit of history between us. I apologise Steve. I dont come on here to down anybody. That was kind of in jest. I have seen Steve on a link and he plays grand music. We will learn to co exist in time if I live a long life!
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
God, Jack, that bloody one of all of 'em! It didn't come off at all in the way I intended. This stupid thing about me playing in Ireland has been up before, quite recently, with all the boring bloody details. The point I was trying to make is that the harmonica gets respect anywhere as long as the harmonica player approaches with due modesty and diffidence. I suppose it's the same for everybody though with certain instruments you probably have to be a bit more sensitive in your approach. Bliss is forever going on about harmonica players getting laughed at. I can only suppose he's speaking from bitter personal experience and sour grapes. If he wants advice on how to approach sessions with his harps I'll be only too bloody happy to oblige. And nice one, Jon.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Nothing.I don't play sessions anymore.I get paid for playing,I put a lot of time and effort into learning the trade .You wouldn't expect a plumber to turn up and work for nothing,would you?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
There you go. That's the difference between sessions and gigs. Gigs is work. Sessions is you and your mates doing one of the things you love the best in a cheery atmosphere. You don't get paid for that. Sex is another example.
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
That is very funny, and I appreciate your stepping into my clumsy way of putting things with your wit and humour, but, in an odd, tangential way, it also illustrates perfectly why you get into so many spats round here. I have different reasons.
How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Have you every counted the cost of playing in a session.
1. The big one is the instrument, How much?
2. String etc.?
3. Travel?
4 Refreshments
If you can think of any more please add.
To the Jenius who can spell musician.
Neat writing is a fools accomplishment. It is not how neat you write you or your spelling ability that counts but the content of your message. So for all you who wish to correct my spelling do so but have something productive to add to you trivals games of spot the spelling mistake. .
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by jmccy
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
No, the big one is not any of those things. It's all the time spent
practicing/playing/learning tunes at home instead of doing other
things with your life.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Hup
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
mccy here's a tip for reducing stress and reducing the spelling
comments - just IGNORE them.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Hup
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I don't give a bloody monkey's mickey about the costs. It's my hobby. My main interest. It's what raises me out of this vale of tears for a few hours a week. What a pointless and abrasive first post. And neat writing, by which I assume you mean having the good manners to do your best to type good, clear English with decent spelling and punctuation, is not a fool's game. It's the mark of someone who respects the people who will have to read it. Innit.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
5. Sound gear
6. Adverts
7. Manager
8. Website
9. Auditions
10. International flights
11. Instrument repair
12. Security
13. Christmas CD
14. Best of CD
15. CDs
16. Paying other players
17. Costumes
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Reply to my own thread It annoys me that we as "musicians " spent our time infighting instead of trying to unite and make some money from sessions. All pubs must pay the Union of song writer so much a year to allow musician to play the song writers material. This has come about in the last few years. Just like royalities tmust be paid to play music in a pub or shop the same applies if musicians plays music. What do we get nothing.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by jmccy
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
To Mr Steve Shaw it is not first post but 5 in all with more then 320 people replying to the 5 threads. So pay attentions if your going to critise.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by jmccy
Jmccy
320 people?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
If you are on a mission to advance the working conditions of musicians it is a noble mission but possibly the wrong forum. Many people here play for the fun of it. Ignore Steve and the rest of the English teachers here. You are right . It is what you say and not how you spell it and phrase it that is interesting.This place is full of boring middle class highly educated wafflers!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
What I don't get is why noone pays me to sit on the bus. I pay good money to do this every single day. If I didn't sit on the bus, it would be empty. I say we should unite and get paid for sitting on the bus.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Tirno
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
It costs me zero. The instruments are paid for years ago, the pub is on the way home from work, and the beer is free. Cheapest hobby I've ever had. What is your point? Be thankful you have a session at all, and hopefully a supportive pub owner, I certainly am.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I meant the first post in this thread, obviously. Duh. You wanna make dosh out of playing in sessions? Good on you. You go to a nice pub that accommodates you and you're allowed to play quite informally for your own pleasure and for anyone who happens to want to share your pleasure. Ask the landlord for free beer and good luck to you. Ask for dough and it's bye bye to you. That's the real world and it's not bad at all. I might just add that class warriors don't go down too well in sessions either, a bit like talking religion at the 19th hole not going down too well. Maybe that's why tabbo don't go to no sessions no more. Heheh.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I kind of like the spelling 'Jenius'!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Bredna
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Moi aussie!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Playing in a session isn't about entertaining the public. You make some awful assumptions when you post here. Every single one of your posts has been self-obsessed and abrasive. What is your problem?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Anonymous posting
If I may speculate. jmccy is either an anonymous but interested session musician, or a member of thesession.org with more than one user name, or someone who has little interest in playing in sessions, but great interest in internet forums.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Yes bredna it's a combination of Jesus and genius. It sounds
like a word that should have deeply significant meaning.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Hup
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Here's a better tip for reducing the spelling comments: learn to write. If you don't care enough about what you're saying to say it in standard English, why would anyone else care enough about it to read it?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Is that the Spanish pronunciation of Jesus?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Jon Kiparsky.. Another professor. If someone cares for the muisic that should be enough for them to gain respect here. It should not be neccessary to have to please educated snobs who dont even realise they are just that. Musicians dont have to have education and many of my favourite musicians would never be able to post here as Jon and Steve would hold them up to ridicule and correct their poor English. All that should be neccessary is to be understood and love the music to be here just like a real session.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
big_tab, I have a friend who holds no university degrees. He was always a slow reader. He taught himself how to read, more effectively, when he was in his thirties. He went on to develop a program to teach illiterate adults how to read. He is not highly educated. He is very good at communicating ideas, both oral & written. YMMV
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
It's more about the fact that the posts he's made are rude, misinformed, inaccurate, uncomprehending, and represent a point-of-view that has little to do with most peoples' understanding of what constitutes a traditional Irish music session, unless you happen to believe that every idiot with a guitar and a couple of Christy Moore songs is a welcome addition to your tune circle. There are plenty of other posters here who disregard the common rules of syntax and grammar - they don't get stick because they're not acting like ar seholes.
Besides, a respect for the rules of language is not all that different from a respect for the rules of music. Those who understand and attempt to abide by them, whether musicians or writers, tend to have the better conversations.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
jmccy has posted very few comments. He did say his intent is to provoke.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
So Ben your friend is a success. Many people are not and love music and should be just as welcome here as the Jeniuses. Dragut ,maybe you are right about the poster but lots of posters, me included, get sh*te for our poor English which is often just Hiberno English.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Yeah, but you like to wind people up so what do you expect dude?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
"All pubs must pay the Union of song writer so much a year to allow musician to play the song writers material. This has come about in the last few years. Just like royalities tmust be paid to play music in a pub or shop the same applies if musicians plays music. What do we get nothing."
You appear to be defending this, tabbo. I don't detect much feel for the love of the music there. I recall your telling us that you don't go to sessions any more anyway, so possibly you could be a bit out of touch, I suggest. Your defence of poor English wouldn't be so bad had the original poster not attacked us for having a go at him for it before we'd even had the chance to. Wacky, I calls it!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I dont need to defend anybody Steve. His point is very clear. He is trying to make a living out of music and is finding it tough. All I am attacking is you and Jon Kiparsky for finding fault with peoples ways of expressing themselves. The English didnt do a great job when they made us speak this language a hundred years ago . Its not really a long time ago. I deplore your attacks on this mans English.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
big_tab, you miss my intent. My friend wanted to become a better reader. Frankly, the education system failed on this count. As a result of improving his reading ability he is motivated to help others to have a deeper understanding of written language. To read & write effectively.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
What, did the English come over here and steal all your apostophes?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
They got one of my R's too. The ba stards!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
He attacked us in the original post before anyone had criticised him. That is hardly going to endear him to anyone (trust me, I'm a bloody expert). Now, tabbo, just tell me how many people make livings out of going to sessions. That is what he is on about. Maybe the odd one or two in Dublin but that would be about it. The bile in the post is totally misplaced. If he wants to make a living out of music he's picking the wrong music. You know that as well as I do. I'm assuming he's not Kevin Burke or Tommy Peoples or Frankie Gavin, of course. Exceptions can prove rules.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
big_tab, Unfortunately in the months before you joined the session, we had some very obnoxious people with very poor writing skills who made a really big stink on the website. Gave bad syntax and grammar a bad name. And those of us who have been here for a while have seen a steady stream of 'trolls' who come out of nowhere to post provocative discussion topics just to spin people up. And folks who had been kicked off the site coming back with different user names. It is no wonder we flinch when a new poster comes around, especially one who seems to be complaining about things from the very start...
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I don't know Steve, those couple of Christy Moore songs can go a long way...
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
As usual you are not correct Steve. Tonight hundreds of musicians all over Ireland have made between 50 and 120 euro playing in sessions.Almost every regular session in Ireland has 2 or 3 paid musicians.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
As for the idea of organizing session musicians to get paid - you're sort of missing the point of sessions. And this is coming from a die-hard union man who spent years trying to get the pub musicians in Portland to get better wages on their gigs.
If you really want to work on musicians' wages, you're going to want to get a little bit serious about it. First of all, to repeat myself, you're going to have to learn to write. You're talking about a public campaign for recognition of a wrong being done to a group of citizens, you'll never convince anyone if you can't be bothered to write correctly. (yes, I said correctly - there are standards for writing for public consumption, and they are normative. deal.) Second, you need to think about the thing you're trying to do. There's no money to be made at a session, except for what goes over the bar, and that's not a lot, typically, unless you're in Gogarty's or some place like that, where the session is a show. Then, too, if you get some coins out of the landlord, what do you do with them? Just divide them among anyone who shows up? That's not going to work, so you're just increasing the wage for the "session leaders" or the number of leaders, and that's going to lead to friction. Better not to go there, you've divided up your forces before you've even begun.
No, you want to look at paid gigs. If they're like anywhere else where you are, they don't pay enough to live on and you've got all sorts of working conditions issues to bring to the table. Double-bookings are always a problem, places that fail to pay or short you on the pay, then there's more specific issues (one place might not be good at throwing out the dangerous drunks, this would be a workplace saftey issue, another place might have a lousy sound system that you'd like to see fixed). Get your local musicians, make sure that you have some people who are highly respected as musicians and some people who are sound players but willing to do a lot of dog work, and start hammering out how you want to deal with the stuff.
I'd say start with a contract. Once musicians start insisting on working under a contract, it's a lot easier to deal with other issues, because at least you've got date and time and pay and some other details in writing. Small claims court (in the state) is pretty easy, and your bar gigs will qualify, so you've got a credible threat as well.
If you like, I can send you a sample contract that we distributed in Portland, this was a vetted document in Portland, Oregon and probably would serve anywhere else but there's no guarantees on that of course, check your local laws and legal beagles for specifics.
Once you've got people using contracts - this is FREE - you can start talking about what wages people are getting and how much you should be shooting for. This will be the hard part, and the real test of your skills as an organizer. If you can find a formula for pay that your musicians agree is fair and reasonable, you're something of a genius even if you can't spell the word.
In the meantime, you can start collecting data on what people are actually getting paid in the different rooms around town and try to make a gentleman's agreement among your members (now that they're using your contract and coming to your meetings, they're starting to feel like members of something) to the effect that you won't undercut the other players. If Jimmy's Pub has been paying $100 per man for a two-hour show, you don't go in and offer to do it for $75, or to stretch it out to three hours, that sort of thing. Keep the wage up for everyone, even if it costs you a gig in the short term. Stop the race to the bottom, that sort of thing.
And that's the brief introduction: how to be an organizer of musicians. Now go do that, and don't waste your time griping that nobody's getting paid in a session where nobody's asking to get paid.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Al ,as far as I remember you were one of my critics because of my terrible English.when I started posting here. I was livid with you as I just wanted to discuss the tunes. It took me a while to realise you were a proper,good guy. Attack,give out, explode here. I do. But please stop criticising peoples language skills. It is elitist ,snobbery.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Al, I don't think very many people have been kicked off the site. Some just switch between user names. I could be wrong.
big_tab, are you making with the claims again, & not letting us know where you received your information?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Information that there are hundreds of sessions in Ireland every night where3 musicians get paid? Are you serious Ben? I am an amazing detective!!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I see that there's been a lot of fur flying while I was writing that. As for the attacks on me, I'm saying nothing. For the attacks on Steve, I suppose I'll do the same, I'll let everyone reading this thread read the posts concerned and decide what they think, it's just not very interesting to argue about, and not a very interesting person to argue with.
I want to ask anyone concerned with keeping this civilised to please don't argue with the tab. He's a troll. He won't let go, he won't change his mind, and he likes to ratchet up to a big fight and then complain about the lack of civility. Don't feed the troll!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Nom nom nom...
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
See.. Theres a word I never heard in Ireland..Troll. Another one you guys use here..Numpty.. I dont jump in and criticise this language Jon. You call me a troll and I call you a divisive elitist wannabe intellectual. I dont know what a troll is.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
I know big_tab. Why do you think I asked?
Jon, you answered the question (whatever the question was) quite well. Cheers!
Goodnight, I'm going to listen to a couple of slip jigs I downloaded earlier. Slow connection off YouTube.
Maybe they're hop jigs.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Actually I think I do . Is a troll a poster that doesnt follow the gang here?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
big_tab you play innocent, don't you?
Never heard troll used on this site?
Never heard troll used on the mustard pages??????
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
smarter than you act.
Cheers, B_T!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I'm with big_tab. Soon we're going to be criticizing people's reasoning skills and musical skills. Elitist snobbery strikes again!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Tirno
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Ben thats twice now you have confused me . I said I have only seen the word here and never heard it in Ireland. Maybe if you read my posts you wouldnt have to ask these questions.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
If you don't know what something is it's better to find out than to glory in your ignorance. There's this thing called 'Google'. They've even got it in the land of stolen apostrophes. Musha God love 'em.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
My bad
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I am just referring to the different ways we express ourselves through language.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Lads .. I am not asking you all to educate us .I am specifically asking you to stop!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Since when has "intellectual" become an insult? I guess the Tea Party nonsense has made it to Ireland.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
If you don't like people correcting you, challenging you, provoking you, then stop posting on a 'discussion' board. If you don't like being treated like a troll, then stop trolling.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Dragut What do you think gives you the right to treat people badly because their English isnt to your satisfaction?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
I don't think it's the Tea Party. PhDs even critique each other.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
If big_tab were a real troll, he would get us to argue amongst ourselves like jmccy is doing.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Tirno
big_tab, look up the phrase "to shoot oneself in one's foot"
This is fun but I really do have a home & I'm going now ...
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I' d prefer if there were no language elitists and we were let discuss the music to the best of our writing ability. Is that an unfair statement?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Ben . Look up the phrase " Havn't a feckin clue what you are on about" before you go home from your job.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
How have I treated anybody badly?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
nice use of the conjunction. ;)
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
No offense B_T
Cheers!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
You said if someone doesn't like being corrected they shouldn't be on a "discussion" board. That assumes your right to correct someones language ability and that to me is elitism of the highest degree.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
No offence at all Ben . It is a discussion. It is important that everyone should be welcome here and the only criticism should be for peoples posts and not how they are written.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
When I was involved in entertaining the public it cost almost nothing. Cheap guitar, tin whistle, my voice. That's it. Luckily the mandolin player owned a PA! Demos can be made almost for nothing and you don't have to do a lot of advertising/press kit to get pub jobs. The biggest expense was gas. I guess the most I've ever spent was for a Marshall head and cabinet back in the punk rock days....had to sell it, though, to get a friend over the border to Canada (does smuggling a friend out of country count as an expense?)but that's another story...I for one couldn't care less about grammer as long as you have something to say.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by shanty
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
There is no such assumption in my statement. If I offer an opinon in disagreement I am assuming the right to make a correction, but I have never corrected your or anybody else's accidental, lazy or deliberately incorrect use of the language.. I haven't criticized your use of language once, nor have I criticized anybody else's. I may not like your opinons, I may not credit them with much consideration or thought, but I wouldn't stoop so low as to imagine myself a superior individual simply because I have a better education. I think you might be confusing me with others who have offended you.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Dragut if there was no such assumption in your statement above I apologize wholeheartedly. I must have misunderstood it. I looked up your profile to see where you come from and stumbled upon an amazing website Ceolálainn. Incredible facility with the best of recordings. Is this yours or were you just providing a link?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Yeah, it's something I started a while ago after spending years begging, borrowing and stealing copies of out-of-print recordings. It'll be there until I get sent to prison for non-payment of fines imposed for copyright infringement I guess...
By the way, I don't correct peoples' use or misuse of the language for many reasons, but particularly because a number of my close friends are dyslexic, speak English as a foreign language, or because they only really think in their own dialects and couldn't speak 'The Queen's English' even if they wanted to... On the other hand, if someone wants to stir it up, I'm more than happy to make sure they get some on their hands...
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
"How much does it cost you to entertain the public?"
Depends. How much you got? Is this a serious inquiry?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
If by stirring it up I can restrain the professors and their corrections I will be happy. Feel strongly about it. I have to go to bed . I look forward to spending time on your website tomorrow and I thank you in advance for the facility.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
You're very welcome.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I'm still learning where to put the dangling modifier, myself.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ray Mariani
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Jmccy "How much does it cost ?"
Is it not really simple to work out, if you really needed to find out why don't you calculate it...
but it's not really your objective is it ?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Theirlandais
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
All that ivory, all that ebony. The African Blackwood, the cane mahogany and walnut. The skin and leather. All those dead animals. The mines, the factory pollution, the carbon footprint.
How much does it cost to be a musician?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by gam
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I think it's only Jazzers who pay to entertain the public, ha ha, only kidding.
If it's entertainment your after then you has to pay the money, see. I've a few grands worth of instruments all bought and paid for by entertaining over the years. Not depending on playing for money has meant I can indulge myself if I want to because I have a day job (don't worry I'm not for giving it up : )
So the answer is nothing.
When I dig into my pocket to go to a session or a tune with mates it's because it's my want and therefore the money comes from my personal entertainment allowance and if there are publics present their entertainment aint my responsibility so the cost is irrelevant, but usually only a few sundries if any....
Practice, well it keeps me out of the pub (but some could argue that perhaps my time would have been better spent on the lash, but hey ho.............. form a little straight line)
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
When I read the title I thought this would be a completely different thread, on the lines of "Would it hurt you to play Danny Boy or The Fields Of Athenry once in a while to please the public ?" or something like that.
Steve Shaw's first reply was absolutely spot on. Yes, it's a big part of what rings my chimes, turns me on, gives me my friends and my social life. The cost is minimal by comparison.
And as for those who think it's not essential to write in correct english and spell properly; or think it's a sign of your proletarian qualities not to; haven't you ever heard of inverse snobbery ? Trolls, one and all.
And haven't you got Spellcheck ? Mine is constantly reminding me of my typos.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
If anybody is still around on this overly-long thread:
Is making music about entertaining the public, entertaining oneself, or getting paid to play? I enjoy best having a day job and playing with my pals for the fun of it. I sleep better, have more time to play, and make more money that way.
As far as spelling and writing go, I agree with Steve Shaw. Whichever English philosopher said that without good writing there is no good thought was absolutely right.
And there are these quotes:
The act of putting pen to paper encourages pause for thought. This in turn makes us think more deeply about life, which helps us regain our equilibrium. ~Norbet Platt
The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug. ~Mark Twain
And, lest you think I am a pedant:
Do not put statements in the negative form.
And don't start sentences with a conjunction.
If you reread your work, you will find on rereading that a
great deal of repetition can be avoided by rereading and editing.
Never use a long word when a diminutive one will do.
Unqualified superlatives are the worst of all.
De-accession euphemisms.
If any word is improper at the end of a sentence, a linking verb is.
Avoid trendy locutions that sound flaky.
Last, but not least, avoid cliches like the plague.
~William Safire, "Great Rules of Writing"
And just one more:
I have a spelling checker
It came with my PC
It plainly marks for my revue
Mistakes I cannot sea
I've run this poem threw it
I'm sure your please to no,
It's letter perfect in it's weigh
My checker tolled me sew
-- anonymous
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by David Levine
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
So what Pete from Guernsey and David are saying is that to discuss Trad music with them you 'd want to have proper English or they wont be impressed. For me if you know the music and want to share thoughts that should be enough to receive a correction free welcome here. I am again one of those referred to as a troll by Pete from Guernsey. I am o so hurt by this strong word!!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I think it Depend's alot on Stage or Session,
where your Entertaining,
I'll Take Session first ... I do that Hopefuly
for fun when I go out - Free Drink help's or
I would'nt go, Simply because I could not afford
the price's they charge now which is just unreal..
< practicing/playing/learning tunes at home instead of doing other things with your life.>
That's what I prefer doing anyway,, Its part of the Hobbie, to Me.
Stage Is a Different Thing, There I would be more going to entertain the public, and expect something much more than a free pint - lol.
And thats where I would want the cost's String's, Rosin, Practiceing Tune set's, etc... And not Fun, to Me.
Also as I've said before you will Rarely,make any great money at ITM. '' And I speak from experiance on that one.''
As for spelling mistakes, there's likely plenty here, and I'll be going over this comment with with great care before posting -
{And Just corrected three already there - lol.}
Also I'll try to cut down - Shouting, and symbol's like,
ie/ = ,,, ???? .... / etc, e,t,c, ------ lol...
Still working on it - And even got pulled up be "Jeremy" when I started for useing FIDDLE4 and not fiddle4 -- lol....
Your's
jim,,,
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Opp's Typo error - lol..
<going over this comment with with great care >
Should only be one, with --- see lol.
jim,,,
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Back to the original post -
The cost to me has been incalculable, for me and for all mankind.
Having to give up being a wandering preacher, sharing the good word with the peoples of this wide world, leaving them in darkness and ignorance. The teachings I carried were more than mere comfort for the distraught and the lost, they truly carried the key to salvation for millions and millions who have found themselves in pain and confusion.
But the world needs fiddlers.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Piece
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
No one's that bothered about anyone's (mis)use of language but leveling words like "intellectual, elitist snob" as an insult and celebrating sloppy writing and lack of education like it makes you a champion of the proletariat and somehow more authentic and in touch with the "common man" is just daft.
On behalf of intellectual, elitist snobs everywhere,
The Silver Spear
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned medical expenses.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Free Reed
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
(1) In reply to the original question, yes. So what?
(2) "As usual you are not correct Steve. Tonight hundreds of musicians all over Ireland have made between 50 and 120 euro playing in sessions.Almost every regular session in Ireland has 2 or 3 paid musicians."
So what, I don't live in Ireland.
(3) I'm not good enough for anyone to consider paying me. Should I stop going to sessions? I'm good enough at what I do at work, so I do get paid for that.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
@big_tab this may have been answered before now, I gave up midway through the thread.
But on "troll" : You won't hear it used much in many places in the real world, but it is used on the web to mean poster that is looking to start a fight. It is really just the web-equivalent of sh*t-stirrer or mixer (if you sue those terms locally). Someone with no interesst in real discussion, just in getting a fight going. If you read any other forums on the web I'm sure you'll see "troll" used sooner or later it is nothing specific to the session.org.
The funny thing about many Trolls is that they frequently come to discussion groups to make the charges "look at you guys with no life, nothing bettre to do than read and post nonsense: get a life" And yet it seems to be an important element of the Trolls life to spend time on web forums telling other people they have no lives. Quite sad really.
The opening poster to this thread is an obvious Troll, I don't know why people are bothering to waste time answering him/her.
- Chris
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
BTW that is "obvious Troll" based on the half dozen or so threads started in a row, not on a single example. And on the confrontational manner in which the questions have been asked.
- chris
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I agree with you Chris .
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by bazouki dave
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
My reason for discussion was not so much the content of the post but the fact that the language police felt the necessity to correct his English.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Having decent language skills is a lot like being a decent musician. The content of your message might be what's important, but if your skills are poor, you'll have trouble getting that content across--and it'll be your fault.
Of course people have different ways of expressing themselves. But when somebody plays a tune with bad rhythm, or writes without passable grammar, it suggests that they don't really care about getting their message across at all.
And if they don't care about their own message, why should I?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Georgi
FIDDLE4
Jim, there is no better communicator in all of Mustardia than yourself. You wield the written words & various punctuation marks of language as a fine sculptor might chisel bits of marble away to reveal what is inside the rock ... As a fiddler giving pleasure to ears. You're just fun.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
X-post
there were a few posts before my went up. It's nothing to do with the clumsy beggars who wish they knew how to express themselves. Sloppy is still sloppy. I'll include myself in that.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
My, my, my
... before mine went up ... lol
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Georgi,,That is the same argument that has been used all through this discussion and it is patently untrue. Having good language skills is nothing like being a good musician.Good communication is like being s good musician. Plenty of passion and an ability to get your point across.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
@big_tab
I can't resist any longer: I am one of the language police, if by that you mean someone who has taken the trouble to learn how to write. I find people offensive who denigrate that effort by insisting that it was a waste of time.
No doubt you would disagree if someone said that playing the right notes in the right key didn't matter, as long as you liked music and meant well. Sloppy writing is the equivalent of turning up at a wedding in jeans and trainers: it shows lack of respect and a disregard for convention.
Rant over.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by gam
IMHO the forum is less like a wedding but more like a marriage. that's a worrisome analogy.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Gam. What you dont seem to understand is that many people who live and love this music have not had the education you have and should not be reminded of this by constant correction. I dont denigrade good language .I love it as much as music. I just dont think perfect English and good English are the same thing.And convention is something I am wary of too!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
since you brought up the subject big_tab its denigrate
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Ben..You make the whole point of the discussion with that comment.Hopefully peoples ideas on the music are more important than the knowledge all you Jeniuses have on language.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
What is a Jeniuses? I've only ever seen it on this forum.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
The Silver Spear, I'm not an elitist intellectual snob, but I play one on the forum.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Jermaine Jenius - doesn't he play for Spurs?
'Uttering a word is like striking a note on the keyboard of the imagination.' (Wittgenstein)
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I don't care enough to count myself, but I wonder how many posts in this thread are actually about the topic?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Very nice quote.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Who cares? The OP isn't really interested in discussion, merely provocation. It's only right that its thread is hijacked and trolled as much as it likes to troll everyone else here. If you can find one meaningful, relevant, vaguely intelligent that it has said on this forum then you have better eyes than I.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Swiffle, I tried to make a list of expenses up near the top of this thread.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Oh sure, no big deal, and where better to have a grammar and language discussion than on a troll thread. I just thought it was amusing.
The other side of things is that when someone makes a decent point, like Ben did above or Jon's big post, it gets a bit lost in the shuffle.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Gosh, look what I miss by going to bed and then going out all day.
I wish to state that I don't believe that there are hundreds of people in Ireland making livings out of going to sessions, bearing in mind that there is a big difference between making a bit of dosh and making a living. I'm fully up for being proven wrong, of course. Assertions won't cut it. Cheers!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Assert I will. As always in matters to do with the music you are wrong. Cheers yourself!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
You don't have to say anything big_tab.
Does anyone else have any proof that hundreds of people, in Ireland, are making a living out of going to sessions?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
"Having good language skills is nothing like being a good musician.Good communication is like being s good musician. Plenty of passion and an ability to get your point across."--big_tab
You seem to be suggesting that language is unimportant for communication, which doesn't make sense. Perhaps I misunderstood you? (Was that my fault?)
For good communication you need decent communication skills, and if you're communicating with text, that means decent *language* skills. You don't need to be able to expound in iambic pentameter on the proper usage of the semicolon, but you do need to be able to put a sentence together in a way that makes sense if you're going to be understood.
It's exactly like music. For good music, you need good music skills. If you lack the skill to hold a steady beat, or stay in one key (or know when not to!), you'll confuse people; just like you'll confuse people if you can't get your point across cleanly in written text (with decent punctuation!).
Passion is fine, but caring about your meaning is not the same thing as communicating it successfully.
It's perfectly possible to write clearly without having had a "proper education". When people complain about someone's writing quality, it's a complaint about their writing, not their upbringing.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Georgi
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
You really don't know, do you, tabby? Where's the evidence? It's so far-fetched as to be absurd. Pub landlords in Ireland paying living wages to hundreds of session musicians, week in, week out, year in, year out. That's what "making a living" entails, not a hundred or two euros in the fist a few times a month. To hundreds of people too. T'ain't true, is it, mate!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Steve .. You know nothing of the people playing this music if you think this is absurd. In Ennis,Doolin, Dingle, Galway, Westport, Kilfenora , Feakle, Belfast, Limerick,Cork, Kilkenny and Dublin alone there are hundreds of sessions with three musicians getting paid the same money that many people work hard for in other professions. Only a handfull of musicians could make a living without their session residencies.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Who gives a sh1t...
...it cost nothing being dead...
...why not save some money that way!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Jamie
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
So how much per annum are these people making? Per annum, please? 'Twas you who asserted living wages. Not per gig or per week or per tourist season. Per annum, mate, please! Only that represents a living wage. Y'know, fifteen or twenty or twenty-five thousand euro per annum, year in, year out minimum. Actually, fifteen would hardly qualify come to think of it. Got any examples? Hundreds of them?? I note that no-one else is chiming in. Poo or off the pot de nuit with you!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
E50 each and free pints once or twice a week doesn't constitute making a living in one of the most expensive countries in Western Europe. The dole is close to E200 per week. Combine the two and you might scrape a living, but it's not quite the same as 'making a living from playing in sessions'. Furthermore, many sessions have been knocked back in recent weeks and months. You're from Clare I believe - head out into the county and see for yourself how many sessions have closed down - look at how many country pubs have closed down. It's just not feasible to make a living from playing sessions, not now, and perhaps it never was.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Okay, on this one I have to lean towards Tabby's point. For a professional musician, E50 or $75 a week isn't a living, but it's an anchor, it's a constant piece of the income. On flush weeks, it's a new set of strings and maybe paying back a few (local currency units) borrowed, in lean weeks, it's groceries. On the whole, if you're trying to make a living as a musician, a steady, even a relatively low-paid one, is part of making a living. Leading a session is a good way to get that steady to happen.
You won't pay the rent with sessions, true, but it's a way to make sure you've got cash in pocket for the week.
Session playing and low-rent pub gigs for me were also ways to round up more lucrative gigs - wedding gigs often come out of pub dates, and I didn't even mean that to be ambiguous but I'll take it.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
The Session pubs are the only ones doing well in Counties Clare,Kerry and Galway and possibly all over the country. There are ten sessions in Ennis alone on a Sunday all employing 3 musicians and paying more than 50 euro .
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
"there are hundreds of sessions with three musicians getting paid the same money that many people work hard for in other professions."
This is what you said. Your post above does not back this up. You can't support your statement, can you? It's all guesswork and optimism!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
The country pubs are really starting to suffer though. Not that many of them pay their local musicians to play. That's more of a townie thing.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
"There are ten sessions in Ennis alone on a Sunday all employing 3 musicians and paying more than 50 euro ."
That's grand! Thanks big_tab.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
You are a gentleman Ben and most welcome!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
If you lived in Bude and got 50 euro per day you'd have to do it for seven days a week, 52 weeks of the year to call it a living. Not just on a Sunday. Then there's that tax thang, of course... Are you telling me there are hundreds of people in Ireland doing this? I don't think so!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Steve. I explained that it was more than 50 euro. Musicians can do as many gigs as they like in Doolin , Dingle, Galway etc. Just because you are not surrounded by the music does not make it right that those of us that are should be excluded on this forum.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
You're bullsh*tting, mate! You can't back up what you said at all. What you say just doesn't happen. Hundreds is it now... give up!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
What Jon said makes the most sense:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/25922/comments#comment546744
"For a professional musician, E50 or $75 a week isn't a living, but it's an anchor, it's a constant piece of the income...Session playing and low-rent pub gigs for me were also ways to round up more lucrative gigs - wedding gigs often come out of pub dates..."
Right. Not that we get paid for sessions here in FL, but figure a four piece, regular Saturday night gig, $400+ , get you can. Do that weekly, add festivals, weddings, dances, whatever, there you go.
...but a once a week gig or session isn't going to pay the bills, but it's an anchor to a regular working musician's (meagre) income.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
...and in keeping with the grammar discussion on here my Firefox spell check thinks it's not in America because it made 'meagre' out of 'meager'. Go figger!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Steve its not just in Ireland that there are hundreds of musicians doing 5 or 6 sessions a week. Chicago, Boston, New York,London , San Francisco all have sessions that give musicians employment!
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Wait, now you're saying there are hundreds of musicians in Ireland being paid more than 50 euro per session 5 or 6 days a week? & also in San Francisco? Huh?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
In Ireland ..Yes. The other places supplement the lean weeks when the gigs are not plentiful. This is not secret knowledge. Anybody that follows the tune would know this.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
...
I'm inferring that you're suggesting there may be a significant number of musicians being well paid, in San Francisco, by playing 5 or 6 sessions per week. Is that what you're implying?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
No. Only maybe in The Plough and The Stars. There are maybe 20 pubs in Chicago paying musicians.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Oh goodie Another wind-up post by jmccy. Have at it boys.
ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
There was some free entertainment earlier.
^
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
What are you smoking, big_tab?
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I live in Boston, and I'm pretty well tied-in to the session scene here. I only know one person in town that has as many as 4 session gigs a week... and she has always had a 9-5 day-job. Beyond her, I don't think I know anybody who does session gigs more than twice a week.
I can't think of anybody in town here who survives primarily on session gigs in town, at least not while paying rent and buying their own food/clothing. I've known a handful of people who have tried, but I can't think of anyone that managed to keep it up for more than a few months before turning around and getting a normal-paying day job.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Georgi
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I don't think Tab's talking about making a living solely on sessions, people. If he is, I think he's off his rocker, but I don't think he is.
George, I know one fellow in town who's holding down two sessions a week and plays weekends around the region. I don't say he survives on sessions, but I think it's safe to say that without the sessions he'd have to make up that money with something else. That is, the money is part of his overall "making a living" as a musician, and it makes it possible for him to gig with the band and so forth.
Does that distinction make sense to you?
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
This is getting very boring and repetitive.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I am going to weigh in to defend big_tab. When I first encountered him on the site, I gave him a hard time because I thought he was one of the rather unpleasant folks that had been causing problems on the site at that time, lurking under another false name. But since then, I have found him to be a pretty decent character, passionate about what he believes.
What I can't believe is that we haven't fully addressed the premise fo the original poster. He asks how much it costs us to entertain the public in his title, but then goes on to ask us about the cost of playing in a session. A few posters have touched on that, but from what I can see, the general consensus of folks on this board is the reason we play in sessions is primarily to entertain ourselves, and any entertaining of the public is incidental to that primary purpose.
So this thread is about how we need to get publicans to pay us for our trouble. Another thread is how the government should pay us. This doesn't sound like someone who plays music for the love of it, this sounds like a mercenary, out to make a buck. And an ill tempered mercenary at that.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
It is indeed repetitive and I have no wish to dwell. But to say that just working sessions pays hundreds of Irish people a living wage is just wrong. I'm not saying that this kind of employment can't make a significant contribution to income. Topping up the state benefits and/or the day job. I'm sure it does, and I'm sure that playing in sessions can also lead to gigs. But the question was about sessions. The bottom line is that any pub landlord who can afford to pay a sessioneer or three a living wage is not the type of landlord I've ever met.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
What you have met is limited and that is my problem always. Why would I come on here and tell lies?. Everybody in the music world knows all the music pubs play 3 musicians every night in the cities and ten months a year in the tourist towns. It is completely boring on this thread now. Thanks Al..
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Very boring. On this we can agree, but don't get your hopes up for the future.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Well I have to agree with Steve, but it dose all boil down to what one considers a living wage to be.
When I was starting a business 15 years ago I played 3 sometimes 4 times a week and managed to live off the proceeds as I couldn't pay myself from the business. I say managed to live which is not the same as living wage.
Also, these were gigs conducted in the same way as an informal session so closed to the public, just like some of the so called big money sessions in Ireland. I've been paid at sessions in my time but that kind of money wouldn't even cover my coal bill....
I could well imagine an aspirant musician hold up in a bedsit thinking they were doing alright on a couple of hundred €'s a week during in the tourist season, to my mind thats not a living.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Thanks for that. This is what raised me hackles: "there are hundreds of sessions with three musicians getting paid the same money that many people work hard for in other professions." I wager that very few people can do just sessions and achieve that. Plus gigs and/or plus benefits and/or plus day job maybe. It's a grey and murky world.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Who needs money when you have free cheese?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1106/breaking1.html
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Heheh. "Grand fromage."
I've seen more inviting lumps of cheese.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I'd love a session where the pub paid you in snobby French cheese.... Oh, wait... that makes me a snob.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0
Don't try this shop, TSS.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Who's law was it which states that there is a Monty Python sketch for every possible thread?
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Cleese's?
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Cole's Law.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I don't care. I do it because I love it. Always have done.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by Kenny
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
PS - and if anyone thinks I'm "elitist", they can fuque off
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by Kenny
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
. Ask the landlord for free beer and good luck to you. Ask for dough and it's bye bye to you. That's the real world and it's not bad at all.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Just because it happened to you Stephen doesn't mean it is another stupid rule.
I personally have been getting PAID for sessions for 20 years now, in a variety of pubs.
Take for nstance Sunday night. It ensures that the session will be on EVERY Sunday and if a passing tourist happens to ask if there is music anywhere, they can be told "Barneys". That is because the fee ensures someone will always be there.
Not a bad practice to have if you want a long lasting session at one venue.
Our current PAID Sunday venue has only been going ten years but the landlord has not given any sign of saying "bye bye".
Reminds me, must ask for a pay rise, it is about that time of year.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
He attacked us in the original post before anyone had criticised him. That is hardly going to endear him to anyone (trust me, I'm a bloody expert). Now, tabbo, just tell me how many people make livings out of going to sessions. That is what he is on about. Maybe the odd one or two in Dublin but that would be about it. The bile in the post is totally misplaced. If he wants to make a living out of music he's picking the wrong music. You know that as well as I do. I'm assuming he's not Kevin Burke or Tommy Peoples or Frankie Gavin, of course. Exceptions can prove rules.
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
That's me, the exception to the rule.. From 1993 to 2002, playing at sessions was my income.
And no, I am not Kevin Burke.
It does help if you play an instrument the punters LOVE.........
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Yeah, but some of us actually have to lay out money on musical instruments. Not animal skins with or without Guinness ads printed on them.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Steve ..you dont know the traditional music scene in Ireland and we dont know the scene in England . Even the word "landlord" sounds so strange..
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
There are many bodhran players making a good living out of playing sessions in Ireland. Dont know too many harmonica players doing gigs..Good man Bliss!
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
It's interesting to note that both the original poster, and big_tab, who seems to delight in aggravating, have no biography of any sort, have posted absolutely nothing about themselves, on this forum.
They could be male, female, transgender, or even merely computer programmes designed to annoy, living in a country cottage or university people in ivory towers posting trolling missives to amuse themselves and irritate the faithful.
We really have no idea.
I, on the other hand, have enough information here on site that several old friends I had lost touch with have re-connected with me through here, plus other people have recognised me at sessions from my description.
Do our annoying posters stay anonymous to avoid brickbats ?
You might think so, though I couldn't possibly comment !
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Actually, over time, both tab and bliss have revealed quite a bit about themselves, or had other people share information about them. They like to stir up debate, but I don't see them deliberately baiting people like some others around here, who go out of their way to be completely anonymous.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Well Guernsey one thing you have revealed is that you dont like people disagreeing with you..
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Yeah, but some of us actually have to lay out money on musical instruments. Not animal skins with or without Guinness ads printed on them.
# Posted on November 6th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Well I do have 8 blues harps as well, mostly Lee Oscar.
If you lay them all together you can get a Guinness ad on them.
But do not play them, well not in Ireland. Nowadays some idiots have rules and would laugh right in your sensitive face.
# Posted on November 7th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Actually, I don't mind people disagreeing with me.
It's not their fault they're wrong. Personally, I blame the parents.
Meanwhile my Other Half is leaving our regular session to go and see the Carolina Chocolate Drops. If they finish at a civilised time she might get back to the session for the last half hour.
Such lack of loyalty !
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I told you not very long ago in no uncertain terms, Blisso. I have played my bloody harmonicas in Ireland, in the Cobblestone even, and no-one, repeat no-one, told me to shut up or laughed. You don't know what you're talking about on this one.
And here comes tabbo with more inflated claims: "There are many bodhran players making a good living out of playing sessions in Ireland."
Define "many." Define "good living."
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
And it's Lee OsKar.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I sometimes play with Mick Kinsella. He seems to be doing OK enough.
Play with another local harmonicaplayer as well. Just lovely.
We don't get many drummers here though. Except Aidan Vaughan, he plays drums though, woodblaock and all. Handy at it too.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Prof. I have heard yourself and Mick together and its a grand reedy sound that is lovely. One of the best tunes I ever heard was Eddie Clarke on Harmonica and Noel Hill one afternoon in Friels .
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
And it's Lee OsKar.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Nope, it is Lee OsCar as there is no letter K in the Irish language.
Hence Ciaran is not Kieran.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
I told you not very long ago in no uncertain terms, Blisso. I have played my bloody harmonicas in Ireland, in the Cobblestone even, and no-one, repeat no-one, told me to shut up or laughed. You don't know what you're talking about on this one.
And here comes tabbo with more inflated claims: "There are many bodhran players making a good living out of playing sessions in Ireland."
Define "many." Define "good living."
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Good to see you have finally "come out" as a pretentious know all, the Gospel according to Steve.
PS: Never heard of the Cobblestone, sorry.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
. Except Aidan Vaughan, he plays drums though, woodblaock and all. Handy at it too.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofsky
What???????????????????????????????
I claim to be the best woodblock player in the world because I was the oonly woodblock player.....in the world.
But I play it like a bodhran, holding it in one hand and the stick in the other hand, it is not attached to anything.
I do it because......I can't play bones, and it annoys the harmonica players.
# Posted on November 8th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
There's nothing in my post that marks me out as a pretentious know-all. I told you something rather factual and honest about harmonica-playing in Ireland that I've told you before but to which you were not listening, and I asked tabbo to elaborate on his claim about bodhran players making livings. You don't agree so you decide to troll-post. Too bad.
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Steve...You told us that you actually played in the Cobblestone and nobody laughed or told you to shut up. Its not quite the musician of the year award ..
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Tab, if you're going to critique someone else's war stories, you might want to wait until you've decided to publicly own up to playing an instrument.
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Touché Jon. Its a bit of history between us. I apologise Steve. I dont come on here to down anybody. That was kind of in jest. I have seen Steve on a link and he plays grand music. We will learn to co exist in time if I live a long life!
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Here's a snippet of Steve Shaw (rather badly recorded):
http://harmonica.co.uk/music/ConcertinaReel.mp3
A bit eccentric but he knows what he's doing.
Steve, where has your website gone? Google leads me to two different dead ends.
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
God, Jack, that bloody one of all of 'em!
It didn't come off at all in the way I intended. This stupid thing about me playing in Ireland has been up before, quite recently, with all the boring bloody details. The point I was trying to make is that the harmonica gets respect anywhere as long as the harmonica player approaches with due modesty and diffidence. I suppose it's the same for everybody though with certain instruments you probably have to be a bit more sensitive in your approach. Bliss is forever going on about harmonica players getting laughed at. I can only suppose he's speaking from bitter personal experience and sour grapes. If he wants advice on how to approach sessions with his harps I'll be only too bloody happy to oblige. And nice one, Jon.
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Some kind soul has offered to host my website but I want to seriously update it first. I need about six rainy days in a row.
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
Nothing.I don't play sessions anymore.I get paid for playing,I put a lot of time and effort into learning the trade .You wouldn't expect a plumber to turn up and work for nothing,would you?
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by dafydd
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
There you go. That's the difference between sessions and gigs. Gigs is work. Sessions is you and your mates doing one of the things you love the best in a cheery atmosphere. You don't get paid for that. Sex is another example.
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
You have sex with your mates in a cheery atmosphere while playing the Concertina Reel?
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by big_tab
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
That is very funny, and I appreciate your stepping into my clumsy way of putting things with your wit and humour, but, in an odd, tangential way, it also illustrates perfectly why you get into so many spats round here. I have different reasons.
# Posted on November 9th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much does it cost you to entertain the public?
But back to the original question.........
........oh, exactly WHAT was the original question anyway ?
# Posted on November 15th 2010 by Guernsey Pete