Is there a prefrence among Irish fiddle players for their fiddle's tone to be brighter rather than warmer? I personally prefer to have a warmer sound pumped out 3 inches from my left ear, (and I use Violinos to help achive that goal). Also the warmer tones don't seem to raise the hackels on the necks of my wife and kids. It seems to me that Irish fiddlers tend to be brighter, and Scots and CB fiddlers can go either way. Has anybody noticed a standard amongst the folks that they play with?
Thanks, Ran
(sunny and 70 degrees in Los Angeles)
When I was trying out different fiddles made by a Chinese violin maker in my neighborhood (I did actually buy one from him), his wife kept saying, "My husband says the classical players like lighter and the fiddle players like darker." I thought she was referring to tone, but it turns out she meant lighter and darker color.
I have two fiddles, an old one with a warm rich tone, and a new one with a lighter, brighter tone that I got earlier this year.
Both fiddles have similar resonance and response, but the older has the better carrying power. I think this comparison is fair because they are fitted up with identical strings.
I swap between them more or less equally when practicing, possibly more with the new one 'cos that needs the playing in. I tend to use the older for about 2 out of 3 sessions and when playing for set dancers, and the newer for workshops and other sessions.
Trevor
I prefer a warm or soft tone (bowed close to the fingerboard) when playing alone, or at a quiet-ish session. When the pub gets noisy, I tend to play closer to the bridge and use longer bowing to increase the volume and brighten & project the tone.
I generally find that IT fiddle players tend to play on the warm and quiet side, sometimes forgetting that they have listeners too!
Jenthur, I honestly don't think tone quality can be discussed with reference to the bow alone; there are too many other interacting factors involved.
Yes, of course, the bowing can and does affect the tone. There are many variables at play: the position of the bow between bridge and fingerboard, the pressure of the bow, the speed of the bow, the angle of the bow relative to the plane of the bridge (normally parallel, but you can get different tonal effects for special purposes going a little away from parallel), whether you apply the whole width of the bow hair to the string (cellists tend to do this to get the power) or incline the bow and just use the "edge" of the hairs, and don't forget the type of string you're using - gut core or the better synthetic core strings tend to generate those harmonics which give that extra richness to the tone.
Relaxation of the right shoulder, bowing arm, hand and fingers is extremely important. Any tightness or stiffness in these areas will adversely affect the tone and make it sound tight and brittle.
Someone once said that if you give a top violinist ten bows he'll produce ten different kinds of tone. True. I'm not a top violinist and haven't got ten bows, but I have three, and I can tell the difference in tone from each.
Vibrato. Not used much in ITM, but when done correctly on the right occasion it enriches the tone. A tentative theory I have about this is that when you do vibrato on the fiddle you're modulating the frequency of the note and this is generating "side-band frequencies" which enrich the tone. This is true in radio theory, and I don't see why it shouldn't work with the theory of a vibrating string, but I haven't done the detailed maths (Fourier analysis) necessary to prove it.
The fiddle itself and its setting up obviously have a very signifcant effect on the tone colour of the instrument. This is an enormous subject in its own right and I'm not competent to do more than dabble my toes in the shallow waters. What I can say though is that the lighter in weight the fiddle is, then the more likely it is to have a better tone.
I've had my new fiddle since April this year. The luthier loaned it to me while my old fiddle was having a repair, and I liked it so much that I arranged to buy it as my second instrument. The tone has improved markedly in the last eight months and is starting to develop some hints of warmth and richness, but it obviously has a long way to go to catch up with my old fiddle. Perhaps it will, one day, but probably not in my lifetime. I've heard that a decent new fiddle can take a couple of centuries to reach maturity of tone!
I shouldn't worry overmuch about intonation. It's far more important to get the beat and rhythm right. Eventually, as you relax and listen to yourself (v. important!) the intonation will sort itself out, and as it does, so the tone will improve.
It's the classical players who have problems with intonation even more. Only tonight, I was driving home from a session and was flicking through the radio and chanced on some big modern symphonic work being played on Classic FM. Within seconds what struck me were the violinists in that professional orchestra who just weren't on the note - I could hear individuals spiking out from the main note like the barbs in a barbed wire fence.
Trevor
Good point, Trevor, about the classical musos - I've noticed that some (albeit mighty and good in their own right) violinists who joined a session sound a bit off-note when they played with instruments like whistle or flute - some haven't yet got the knack of matching the 'temper' of other instruments. Good trad players seem to match them without even thinking.
(Mind you, matching your own sense of time with adjacent players, following a conductor's signals, while playing in Eb minor, is another skill entirely).
I've got a 3year old fiddle and still see changes- but not warmth. I often feel that the tone flucuates- that's why I was wondering about bowing, etc.
After about a year of playing, several people remarked on my good intonation. I took that as I still do- intonation was my ONLY strength at that point and this was not entirely a compliment (if at all). Kind of like- your intonation is good , but is that a jig or an air you are playing?
I bought a fiddle this summer at a flea market. It was in quite bad shape but not too bad (no cracks), built in 1808 (at least that's what the note inside says) and quite dark brown varnish. Beautiful. One week ago I got it from the luthier who had repaired it. It's great. More "warm" than "bright", and quite low volume. It's nice. I love it.
The best thing is that it cost me about $11 (for the fiddle) + $80 (the repairs, an old friend of my grand father fixed it, and he did it good).
Oh, and there's pictures at http://bithinken.nu/fiol/ if you want to see it. (beware of slow internet connection, you have been warned)
Can't wait to bring this little fellow down to the pub... ;-D
Pobe, at 200 years a fiddle is just starting to get mature, so it looks as if you may have a nice one there!
If it's come from a flea market and was in a bad shape before you had it seen to, the chances are it hasn't been played seriously for quite a few years, so it may have lost some of its tone. And this happens anyway to a certain extent when an instrument has a thorough overhaul. But don't worry! Regular, frequent and strong playing will soon bring the tone back.
I had exactly the same thing happen with my 200-year old German fiddle (a family heirloom) which, until it came to me, hadn't been played for more than 60 years and was in a bad state of disrepair, including cracks. I had it renovated and the tone started to return within a few weeks, and was getting pretty good within 6 months. I think an old fiddle recovers its tone faster than playing in a new fiddle.
The recent "Lennons" thread (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/2600) reminded me of another way of controlling the tonal quality (warm v. bright), and it is the way you place your fingers on the string.
If you place the tips of your fingers on the string you'll get a brighter, possible harder tone, which may be ok in some circumstances like getting the tune through to set dancers; or you can flatten your fingers so that the fleshy part contacts the string. This gives a warmer, more diffuse tone, possibly darker, depending on the fiddle.
Also, it is not always necessary to force the string into contact with the fingerboard. If you do that you're using up quite a lot of useful energy and making a harder tone. It also places more wear on the string and will tend to sharpen the note being played. Rapid fingerwork is a lot easier if you let the fingers dance lightly on the strings. The skin of the finger contacts the fingerboard long before the string does, which is why getting the string into contact with the fingerboard is harder work and takes up that extra energy and time (at speed, milli-seconds do count).
Trevor - while fingers "dance" on the strings, keeping the non-playing l/h fingers close to the strings at all times will help rapid fingerwork even more - less wasted energy than having fingers constantly popping up and down, wasting time and energy, and doing absolutely *nothing* apart from looking busy (ask my mate Sevcik)!!
Not the easiest of things to shoehorn in if one has been playing in an uneconomic (un-ergonomic?) style for a long time. But it's well worth considering. It's also much less tiring on the left hand.
Thanks Jim. Yes, you're quite right of course. What I was trying get across was a lightness of feel in fingers, "as if" they were dancing. I know, myself, I keep the fingers as close to the strings as I can - I had that drummed into me when learning the cello.
Trevor
Warm or bright tone?
Warm or bright tone?
Is there a prefrence among Irish fiddle players for their fiddle's tone to be brighter rather than warmer? I personally prefer to have a warmer sound pumped out 3 inches from my left ear, (and I use Violinos to help achive that goal). Also the warmer tones don't seem to raise the hackels on the necks of my wife and kids. It seems to me that Irish fiddlers tend to be brighter, and Scots and CB fiddlers can go either way. Has anybody noticed a standard amongst the folks that they play with?
Thanks, Ran
(sunny and 70 degrees in Los Angeles)
# Posted on December 28th 2003 by Ran
Re: Warm or bright tone?
I think I prefer warmer.
When I was trying out different fiddles made by a Chinese violin maker in my neighborhood (I did actually buy one from him), his wife kept saying, "My husband says the classical players like lighter and the fiddle players like darker." I thought she was referring to tone, but it turns out she meant lighter and darker color.
# Posted on December 29th 2003 by Andee
Re: Warm or bright tone?
Greetings:
I prefer a warmer tone myself, but then, I lean toward Scottish/Cape Breton tunes more than ITD.
Now that I think about it, warmer is heard more than lighter in these parts, the San Francisco East Bay.
# Posted on December 29th 2003 by cathrynb
Re: Warm or bright tone?
I like the warm tone tone better myself. I was told that Irish fiddlers typically do, and it is classical violinists that like the brighter sound.
-Max
# Posted on December 29th 2003 by Max Becher
Re: Warm or bright tone?
I have two fiddles, an old one with a warm rich tone, and a new one with a lighter, brighter tone that I got earlier this year.
Both fiddles have similar resonance and response, but the older has the better carrying power. I think this comparison is fair because they are fitted up with identical strings.
I swap between them more or less equally when practicing, possibly more with the new one 'cos that needs the playing in. I tend to use the older for about 2 out of 3 sessions and when playing for set dancers, and the newer for workshops and other sessions.
Trevor
# Posted on December 29th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Warm or bright tone?
I prefer a warm or soft tone (bowed close to the fingerboard) when playing alone, or at a quiet-ish session. When the pub gets noisy, I tend to play closer to the bridge and use longer bowing to increase the volume and brighten & project the tone.
I generally find that IT fiddle players tend to play on the warm and quiet side, sometimes forgetting that they have listeners too!
Jim
# Posted on December 29th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: Warm or bright tone?
I have always liked warmer- but is it possible to affect this with your bowing ?
Trevor, how long does the playing in on a new fiddle still make a difference?
sunny, beautiful and 65 degrees in Lynchburg , Virginia!
Jennifer
# Posted on December 29th 2003 by Jenthur
Re: Warm or bright tone?
Warm Tone? Bright tone? I'm still trying to stay in tune.
# Posted on December 29th 2003 by BowHand
Re: Warm or bright tone?
Jenthur, I honestly don't think tone quality can be discussed with reference to the bow alone; there are too many other interacting factors involved.
Yes, of course, the bowing can and does affect the tone. There are many variables at play: the position of the bow between bridge and fingerboard, the pressure of the bow, the speed of the bow, the angle of the bow relative to the plane of the bridge (normally parallel, but you can get different tonal effects for special purposes going a little away from parallel), whether you apply the whole width of the bow hair to the string (cellists tend to do this to get the power) or incline the bow and just use the "edge" of the hairs, and don't forget the type of string you're using - gut core or the better synthetic core strings tend to generate those harmonics which give that extra richness to the tone.
Relaxation of the right shoulder, bowing arm, hand and fingers is extremely important. Any tightness or stiffness in these areas will adversely affect the tone and make it sound tight and brittle.
Someone once said that if you give a top violinist ten bows he'll produce ten different kinds of tone. True. I'm not a top violinist and haven't got ten bows, but I have three, and I can tell the difference in tone from each.
Vibrato. Not used much in ITM, but when done correctly on the right occasion it enriches the tone. A tentative theory I have about this is that when you do vibrato on the fiddle you're modulating the frequency of the note and this is generating "side-band frequencies" which enrich the tone. This is true in radio theory, and I don't see why it shouldn't work with the theory of a vibrating string, but I haven't done the detailed maths (Fourier analysis) necessary to prove it.
The fiddle itself and its setting up obviously have a very signifcant effect on the tone colour of the instrument. This is an enormous subject in its own right and I'm not competent to do more than dabble my toes in the shallow waters. What I can say though is that the lighter in weight the fiddle is, then the more likely it is to have a better tone.
I've had my new fiddle since April this year. The luthier loaned it to me while my old fiddle was having a repair, and I liked it so much that I arranged to buy it as my second instrument. The tone has improved markedly in the last eight months and is starting to develop some hints of warmth and richness, but it obviously has a long way to go to catch up with my old fiddle. Perhaps it will, one day, but probably not in my lifetime. I've heard that a decent new fiddle can take a couple of centuries to reach maturity of tone!
Trevor
# Posted on December 29th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Warm or bright tone?
PS, the temperature at the moment here in Bristol, England is 2 degrees, and it's windy and raining. Not pleasant to be out in.
Trevor
# Posted on December 29th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Warm or bright tone?
I shouldn't worry overmuch about intonation. It's far more important to get the beat and rhythm right. Eventually, as you relax and listen to yourself (v. important!) the intonation will sort itself out, and as it does, so the tone will improve.
It's the classical players who have problems with intonation even more. Only tonight, I was driving home from a session and was flicking through the radio and chanced on some big modern symphonic work being played on Classic FM. Within seconds what struck me were the violinists in that professional orchestra who just weren't on the note - I could hear individuals spiking out from the main note like the barbs in a barbed wire fence.
Trevor
# Posted on December 29th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Warm or bright tone?
Good point, Trevor, about the classical musos - I've noticed that some (albeit mighty and good in their own right) violinists who joined a session sound a bit off-note when they played with instruments like whistle or flute - some haven't yet got the knack of matching the 'temper' of other instruments. Good trad players seem to match them without even thinking.
(Mind you, matching your own sense of time with adjacent players, following a conductor's signals, while playing in Eb minor, is another skill entirely).
Jim
# Posted on December 29th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: Warm or bright tone?
I've got a 3year old fiddle and still see changes- but not warmth. I often feel that the tone flucuates- that's why I was wondering about bowing, etc.
After about a year of playing, several people remarked on my good intonation. I took that as I still do- intonation was my ONLY strength at that point and this was not entirely a compliment (if at all). Kind of like- your intonation is good , but is that a jig or an air you are playing?
two degrees!!! Sorry, stay warm. Jennifer
# Posted on December 30th 2003 by Jenthur
Re: Warm or bright tone?
I bought a fiddle this summer at a flea market. It was in quite bad shape but not too bad (no cracks), built in 1808 (at least that's what the note inside says) and quite dark brown varnish. Beautiful. One week ago I got it from the luthier who had repaired it. It's great. More "warm" than "bright", and quite low volume. It's nice. I love it.
The best thing is that it cost me about $11 (for the fiddle) + $80 (the repairs, an old friend of my grand father fixed it, and he did it good).
Oh, and there's pictures at http://bithinken.nu/fiol/ if you want to see it. (beware of slow internet connection, you have been warned)
Can't wait to bring this little fellow down to the pub... ;-D
# Posted on December 30th 2003 by Pontus Adefjord
Re: Warm or bright tone?
Pobe, at 200 years a fiddle is just starting to get mature, so it looks as if you may have a nice one there!
If it's come from a flea market and was in a bad shape before you had it seen to, the chances are it hasn't been played seriously for quite a few years, so it may have lost some of its tone. And this happens anyway to a certain extent when an instrument has a thorough overhaul. But don't worry! Regular, frequent and strong playing will soon bring the tone back.
I had exactly the same thing happen with my 200-year old German fiddle (a family heirloom) which, until it came to me, hadn't been played for more than 60 years and was in a bad state of disrepair, including cracks. I had it renovated and the tone started to return within a few weeks, and was getting pretty good within 6 months. I think an old fiddle recovers its tone faster than playing in a new fiddle.
Trevor
# Posted on December 30th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Warm or bright tone?
The recent "Lennons" thread (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/2600) reminded me of another way of controlling the tonal quality (warm v. bright), and it is the way you place your fingers on the string.
If you place the tips of your fingers on the string you'll get a brighter, possible harder tone, which may be ok in some circumstances like getting the tune through to set dancers; or you can flatten your fingers so that the fleshy part contacts the string. This gives a warmer, more diffuse tone, possibly darker, depending on the fiddle.
Also, it is not always necessary to force the string into contact with the fingerboard. If you do that you're using up quite a lot of useful energy and making a harder tone. It also places more wear on the string and will tend to sharpen the note being played. Rapid fingerwork is a lot easier if you let the fingers dance lightly on the strings. The skin of the finger contacts the fingerboard long before the string does, which is why getting the string into contact with the fingerboard is harder work and takes up that extra energy and time (at speed, milli-seconds do count).
Trevor
# Posted on December 31st 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Warm or bright tone?
Trevor - while fingers "dance" on the strings, keeping the non-playing l/h fingers close to the strings at all times will help rapid fingerwork even more - less wasted energy than having fingers constantly popping up and down, wasting time and energy, and doing absolutely *nothing* apart from looking busy (ask my mate Sevcik)!!
Not the easiest of things to shoehorn in if one has been playing in an uneconomic (un-ergonomic?) style for a long time. But it's well worth considering. It's also much less tiring on the left hand.
Jim
# Posted on December 31st 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: Warm or bright tone?
Thanks Jim. Yes, you're quite right of course. What I was trying get across was a lightness of feel in fingers, "as if" they were dancing. I know, myself, I keep the fingers as close to the strings as I can - I had that drummed into me when learning the cello.
Trevor
# Posted on December 31st 2003 by Trevor Jennings