how exactly are the guitar players stopped from playing? what if a whole bunch of us guitar players gate-crashed and staged a sit in until we could play along to Drowsie Maggie? What would the fiddle players do to stop us. Would they front up to us with their bows? What if I flicked a plectrum in disgust at the concertina players? Or is it with the banjo players who would kick arse? It sounds a bit playground'ish...
MInd you I'll never play a tune from Kerry or Kilkenny for sporting reasons (Cork being the 2010 All Ireland football champions!...need I remind you).
jmccy if it was a fairly small group of musicians & there was already a Guitar player in the session, then I could see their point. In my opinion, most sessions work best if certain instruments are represented by only a single player, so things like Guitars, Banjos, Accordions, Bodhrans often tend to clash if there are two. It's hard to judge though, not knowing the full story.
However, if there were no Guitar players already & a musician was barred from the session, before they even had a chance to prove themselves, then yes, I reckon that may well be a case of arrogant snobbery in action.
Makes you wonder how they would react if, unknown to them, the Worlds worst ever Fiddle player walked in & asked to join them! Would they welcome him in, just because he had the right shaped case under his arm?
Perhaps it's time for ALL instruments to come in Fiddle Shaped Cases, to neutralise the negative effects of all Irish Music's arrogant Snobs!
These guys may have been the sort who, from their vantage point way up there on their ivory tower, if they don't actually recognise a musician, then surely he or she can't possibly be up to their high standard.
One day, they'll probably chase someone like Alec Finn away, just because he walks in with a Bouzouki case under his arm, on the way home from the barbers shop!
Next time jmccy, don't worry, if that was their attitude, they were probably no fun to play with anyway. I'm sure that's not the only session in town, there's bound to be a friendly one somewhere.
I'll put my disclaimer in up front: my regular session is pretty laid back open and welcoming which is how I personally prefer my nights out to be. Has bit us on the bum a couple of times, mind.
But, no-one has a right to turn up to a session and expect the regulars to welcome them with open arms regardless of ability, instrument or repertoire (hello I play old-time tunes on the trombone, I've only been at it for 3 months).
The regulars at a session are well within their rights to exclude guitars, drums, or even any visitors. There is no intrinsic right to sit in on someone else's night out.
Sure that *isn't* how I like to go about life. I like to see visitors, and we're happy with sympathetic guitars and bodhrans*. But surely folks can set the rules for thier own party?
- Chris
*regrettably with much soul searching and after prolonged exposure we do however draw the line at djembe's/bongos etc.
"no-one has a right to turn up to a session and expect the regulars to welcome them with open arms regardless of ability"
RP, that's why I said it was hard to comment really, when we didn't actually know all the facts.
The guys may very well have been very polite & simply pointed out that they had a very good reason, perhaps they already had a Guitar player, or there was no room, or they already had accompaniment from a Bouzouki or a Piano, or whatever.
The Cobblestone is a paid session - it's unlikely that they're particularly welcoming of anyone they don't already know to be a good player. And why should they be welcoming? It would be nice if many people learned to be more appreciative of the good music they hear and less desperate to join in at any cost. Assuming that you're a strong player I guess you should be able to appreciate that.
@Dick, I had cross-posted with your earlier message and wasn't arguing against it.
For what it's worth I suspect my attitude to visitors and session openess would be pretty similar to our own. But I don't think it is right to expect all sessions to welcome you just because you turn up with an instrument (even though we'd be inclined to make you welcome ).
mickeyfong, How do melody players stop strummers? Well, if they stop playing the melody, there's not much point to it all, is there?
Always go to a session and listen, and speak to the participants, before bringing an instrument. Unless of course, you are invited to attend, or the gathering has been recommended to you by a friend that knows both the session and your abilities. If you do bring an instrument the first time, be content if you don't play it much, or don't play it at all. Sessions do not always welcome all comers, and as people have stated above, there are some good practical reasons for this.
Ah thanks for the explanation DR. So what we're actually talking about here then is a Gig, not a Session. In which case, certainly no other musician can expect a welcome to join in.
Perhaps it's a pity though that these Gigs are not more honestly advertised as such, instead of misleading folks by calling them Sessions.
We were joined recently at our session, up here on the North Coast, by a very good Canadian Fiddle player. We had a great night swopping tunes & a few weeks later I received a thankyou eMail from him, saying he'd been very disappointed to find only two open sessions during his two week trip from Donegal to Kerry - our session & one in Kerry.
All the rest were paid Gigs!
Perhaps the era of the Open Session is now over & we are entering the reign of the Irish Traditional Gig or .......... Pseudo Session!
Does Mary Begley still lead the Monday night session @ Cobblestone? I went several years ago, and she was such a delightful person, and it was such a delightful session. Not a shred of snobbery in the lot of them.
Just because it is a paid session it doesn't automatically stop it being an open session. Also just because it is an unpaid session shouldn't automatically make it a free-for-all.
Well if it is Mary's session on the Monday night then that is the one session in the Cobblestone I have been in - and with my guitar. I was made to feel welcome and was also taught why the Lisbon Treaty is a bad thing.
Ptarmigan..The paid sessions seem to me to be the open ones. Where people get together without a paid musician they can be the scary ones if someone makes a false move!
@ NCfA "Just because it is a paid session it doesn't automatically stop it being an open session."
Absolutely right. I know of three up here, where a small core are paid, but the sessions have still remained open to all, so it can indeed work & work very well.
However, I am led to believe that further south, things aren't always quite so open, perhaps because there are far more musicians on the ground, so being totally open to all would simply be impractical.
I'm sure attitudes are bound to differ though, depending on whether a session is based in the heart of Dublin or Galway, or say the backwoods of Alaska!
Which begs the question, do they have trees in Alaska ... or just snow?
I got to join in at The Cobblestone with my harmonicas. Mind you, all I did was lurk at the edge for a bit and only gently and gradually let it be known I was armed. I even got invited to another session the next night. I suppose it's hard to do that with a guitar. Something awful happens inside me when I see an unknown person brandishing a guitar case. Experience shows that indulgence is almost always a serious mistake. That's the problem you have to live with, mate.
Several years ago(almost 20), I attended a session in Sandy Bells with my guitar.
I was made VERY welcome BUT before I even played a note, the "old timers" who had the wee Scottish session there advised me that they appreciated a simple backing and "Nane o' this fancy stuff" and they preferred that I didn't play(or attempt) to play the melody or tune as such.
Every session and group of players will have different ideas but, basically, "it's their ball" and they have the right to choose who they play with and to decide the rules of the game.
Dick, you nailed it-it's could be the difference between an open session-all welcome-and a loose unrehearsed concert given by musicians who may not play together regularly and have some spontaneity; I agree it's confusing to call the latter a "session." I brought an instrument to a session in a pub in Nova Scotia only to find it was a concert with "guests." The musicians were not snobby at all-it was just set up that way.
"mickeyfong, How do melody players stop strummers? Well, if they stop playing the melody, there's not much point to it all, is there"?
AlBrown I'll keep playing no matter what. Even if they stop playing the tune I can still him it in my head (or even better I can hum it on the bodhran).
Ptarmigan, there are certainly trees in Alaska; but if you want to see snow you'd better be quick, unless we start taking Climate Change seriously.
You probably won't see Sarah Palin there though. She seems to spend most of her time in the audience of Dancing With The Stars, where her daughter is a competitor.
It's not a matter of snobbery; it's a matter of preference. But I think guitars and bodhrans receive the same trepidation when people who are unknown to sessions approach carrying those instruments. One reason is that the people who play them often have the notion they can just bang along to any tune and everyone will love it, and they are often completely oblivious to the negative impact they might be having. If someone approaches with those instruments sans any sense of entitlement regarding their joining in, they have a better chance of being included, but the people having the session have good reason to ban such potential musical hazards if they are unsure of the person who is handling it... or if they just prefer the music without it.
Yes there is snobbery in this music and I have experienced it occasionally because I don't play a "traditional" acoustic instrument. Because I am a piano player who uses an electronic keyboard (a digital piano) I have been told that I really ought to learn to play a "real" instrument such as a fiddle, flute, tin whistle, button accordion, etc. (I am not going to mention any names because the guilty party knows who they are)
At our local sessions, I try to work closely with the one guitarist who shows up regularly to make sure we are playing the same chords at the same time. We are trying to avoid ruining the tunes and the session for the other musicians who are there. We are both aware that these tunes are perfectly capable of standing up on their own without any help from an accompanist/backup musician so we do our best to ensure that the tunes are properly and smoothly accompanied. Neither one of us wants to be a session wrecker.
Unfortunately, sometimes another musician (who is an ageing hippie, New Age type person) shows up with his guitar, soprano recorder, and bodhran. When he plays his guitar, he plays the wrong chords and the wrong rhythm half of the time as well as playing too loudly. If I am sitting next to him, it is difficult for me to hear the melody players. I ignore his mistakes and continue playing. I haven't said anything to him about his playing yet because he has tried to encourage me and help me find other places to play (unlike the Folk Nazis at the local sessions who seem to do their best to discourage anyone who doesn't meet their too strict criteria or standards for a folk musician).
When I have asked to sit in and participate at a session out of town and out of state where they don't know me and have never seen me before, I am usually asked whether or not I have ever played at an Irish session before and how much experience do I have playing piano at Irish sessions. I think these questions are fair and am glad to answer them because they don't know me and they have never heard me play before. They want to know whether or not I can fit in and whether or not I might or might not ruin their local session.
As for whether or not there are any trees in Alaska, the answer is yes there are trees in Alaska. One of my first cousins and his family used to live in Wasilla next door to some crazy woman named Sarah Palin and her family. They got along just fine with the Palins until Sarah got this crazy notion to enter politics and run for elective office.
Is there snobbery in Irish music? Of course there is. There is snobbery in any social gathering of humans. Knitting cirlces, poker nights, car clubs, dungeons and dragons geeks, motorcycle clubs, bluegrass jams, The Snobs Society of South San Salvador - any group you can think of. That's how we human roll. This is based on varying degrees of investment and interest in the things for which we gather.
Um, let's see. The Tongass National Forest (located in Alaska) is 69,000 square km (which is less than 5% of Alaska's total area). For reference, the total area of the Republic of Ireland is about 70,000 square km.
Interestingly (or not), according to the US Dept of Agriculture Alaska has less native species of trees than any other state although there are as many trees in Alaska as in all the other states put together.
I wonder if that statistic takes Puerto Rico into account...
why is it being called "snobbery"? i fell for this music because it is melody-prominent and swing-prominent. instruments, or ways of playing those instruments, which destroy that by drowning out the melody instruments and/or using a slamming, unsyncopated um, "driving" rhythm, destroy my experience of playing this music and encourage me to express my tommy potts side and play reclusively. i fail to see that as "snobbery." no one seems to be stopping these instruments and ways of playing them from clashing and banging in any public venue they wish to enter, though everywhere and particularly ireland i believe, there is plenty of wonderful music being made in private precisely to avoid the whole issue.....
If it's a paid gig, then the question isn't about session attitudes; or even about guitars in Irish music. It's only about what the paid musicians decide.
I know,"A session is a public gig!" Oy vey.
It used to be really talented newcomers who were snobs who invented all sorts of rules and such, and sneered at other instruments, and singers, and anyone who looked like they were enjoying themselves.
Alas this is now starting to affect Irish people who should know better.
Random, whether people are being paid or not doesn't determine whether or not it's a session or what people's preferences or perceived rights are regarding having a session. It's about manners and common decency. You don't walk up to people having a conversation and ask if they're being paid to have the conversation and based on that decide whether it's all right to impose yourself or otherwise disrupt the conversation they were having... right? The same is true if you come across people playing tunes together in a pub; you listen, decide if you can add to their conversation or not and ask if they wouldn't mind you joining in... not whether or not they are being paid.
We don't do snobbery in Irish music down in Kernow because we can't afford to. We have enough trouble getting enough melody players (hey, I said melody). But what we don't need is any more geetar men or goat-flayers. That isn't snobbery, it simply means that we have enough already. If we say no to extra guitarists or bodhran owners it doesn't mean we're snobs. It means we know the difference between a good night in the pub and a bloody nightmare.
I played in the cobblestone on a Monday not too long ago; a friend of mine invited me along as he was filling in for Mary Begley. My main instrument is the Flute but I also play the bouzouki and that is what I played that night I was accepted more or less. One comment that I should play a bit quieter on one tune as there was only a whistle player playing. Of course after that I played a few tunes on the flute and the guilty party apologized to me after that! To answer the question; yes there is snobbery in traditional music and it is quite alive and well in the Cobblestone, but that really depends on when you go and who's playing. Most of the times I have gone there I have played flute and not been welcomed at all sat there the whole night and nobody said a word to me.
You were asked by someone to strum a bit quieter on a tune as there was only a whistle player playing ... and you refer to that person the "guilty party"?
Yes, of course there are porcupines in Irish music....!....DUH!
In Alaska, porcupines are considered to be cuddly too.
Of course, a pair of pliers should be kept handy for tidying up after cuddling with a porcupine.
And how, you may ask does one go about cuddling with a porcupine?
Verrrrrry......Carefully!
I haven't found such snobbery in Scottish sessions. In fact, the opposite is true. One of the first sessions I went to (Ma Cameron's in Aberdeen, many years ago!) I was encouraged to get my mandolin out and join in. My protestations about lack of ability were pooh-poohed. I did struggle through a couple of the slower tunes and all the musicians there were nothing but complimentary and encouraging.
I remember that session with fondness and it served as encouragement for me to continue to learn and improve. Indeed, had it not been for the gentlemen that encouraged me that night (or had I been in the company of snobs) I may have given up playing for good.
One of those gentlemen was none other than Aly Bain.
To all those who have encouraged me, or any other novice................I thank you!
Kenny may have been one of them!? A total rock when it comes to encouraging good music, getting hold of good versions of tunes for people to learn from and of course not tolerating sh1t.
Clavey - you say you were encouraged to get your mandolin out and you struggled through a few slow tunes - great. You didn't invite yourself into a session, you were welcomed. There's a big difference.
@Dragut
I've been playing for 7 or so years now and my attitude going to a new session is the same as its always been. Usually to prop up the bar with a pint, listen and hang back and wait to chat to someone from the session up at the bar and wait to be invited to join the session. I also hang back and wait to be invited to play a tune once sat down and make an effort to fit in. It may just be a reflection of my personality, as I'm a but backwards in coming forwards, but I have never come across anything that could be called snobbery having employed this attitude in numerous different sessions in Scotland, Ireland and England. I've seen plenty of standard setting... ...but that's a different matter.
We don't do snobbery in Irish music down in Kernow because we can't afford to. We have enough trouble getting enough melody players (hey, I said melody). But what we don't need is any more geetar men or goat-flayers. That isn't snobbery, it simply means that we have enough already. If we say no to extra guitarists or bodhran owners it doesn't mean we're snobs. It means we know the difference between a good night in the pub and a bloody nightmare.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Steve Shaw
See what I mean?
Now you call that stupidity or snobbery, amounts to the same thing.
At a CONCERT in the Albert Hall or whatever you could object to the odd guitarist/drummer/harmonica player, but at a SESSION?
Bliss - if you think you know what a session is, and others don't, you probably don't. Your sessions might be a take-all-comers bring-your-bongos free-form jazz extravaganza with beat poetry readings and slide whistles for all I know. If I came in expecting a session and found that, I'd leave, but if it works for you, that's fine.
Steve's session might be him and his buddies sitting around a table with their regular crew and no, they don't need another guitar player, and if that works for them, that's fine too. If I came in with my guitar, and a guitarist wasn't needed, maybe I'd leave, or maybe I'd stay and listen, but it's their thing and it's not my place to force my way in.
What I don't get is the idea that there's one thing that can be called a session, and that someone here knows what it is, and all others are wrong. To me, that seems a bit mental.
There is always a tension in this thread between people who like sessions dedicated to Irish (or Scottish) tunes played by musos who have put some work into learning the music and people who think the musical process embodied in a session should be open to anyone who stumbles in the door.
As if it can't be both....
The reality is that there are sessions which fall into both categories and everyting in between.
Jamie - which description are you referring to there? If you mean Emily's "open to anyone who stumbles in the door", I've played with a guy who took exactly that view, and the sessions have been fine. The guy who held it together would ask just about anyone who was in the joint if they wanted to sing a song, or tell a story, or tell a joke, or join in in some fashion. Often they said no, and that was fine, sometimes they'd come and sing something and sometimes it wasn't very good, and that was okay too, sometimes they'd be quite good at something that wasn't Irish trad, but it was nice to hear, because it was something they did well and enjoyed. And then there were the swing dancers who happened in, and they livened up a set of pair of hornpipes quite proper.
Mostly, though, we played tunes of the same sort you play at any session, and it didn't really prevent any music from happening. It just meant we met some interesting people.
I don't think it's the way I'd choose to do things if I were to be asked to choose a way to do things, but it was a fun session and I learned a lot there.
Sessions, used to be at people's houses, it was ENTERTAINING, everyone joined in.
They then expanded into pubs in England and then everywhere.
However the jealous Irish began inventing some rules when the realised that musicians from the US of A were a lot better than them. And invented restrictions.
But sure, I only started in the Favourite in London, what would I know?
I don't wear a wig and have no intention of ever wearing one. Also, I prefer to use Gorilla Glue for minor repairs around the house because it holds better than SyrupStik.
A session is whatever the people having it want it to be. When you encounter a session, it is not up to you to determine whether or not it is legitimate. All you can do is suss out whether or not it's a session you enjoy and can either listen to or possibly join in with. If it's not for you... go somewhere else, maybe start one of your own, but please don't come here and whine about how it wasn't your personal idea of what a session is or isn't.
Agree 100% about sessions. Now if the same civility is applied to discussions that would be grand. Of course, without a bit of controversy we might never look in the mirror. Self reflection helps keep hubris in check. imho a good discussion board is a balance of intelligence, emotion, civility, & creativity.
"However the jealous Irish began inventing some rules when the realised that musicians from the US of A were a lot better than them. And invented restrictions.
But sure, I only started in the Favourite in London, what would I know?"
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Um, you reached this conclusion how, exactly? Better how? I know some people who speak the French language exceptionally well, but I would never imagine this inspiring jealousy in people from, say, FRANCE! And oddly enough, Irish MUSIC is a language, too. While I agree that the good 'ol U.S. of A has produced some amazing technicians in the music field, I can say AS A YANK MYSELF that a large percentage of these players won't EVER have, or get, the "language" of real traditional music. Like Tommy Peoples does. Or Junior Crehan. Or, since you mentioned The Favourite, like Mairtin Byrnes (one of my personal faves). And while many of these older Irish musicians might well be impressed by technical skill, (MAYBE to the point of envy, you would have to ASK them, though!) I would think they could still tell when someone "DOESN'T GET IT". This music is an ART, not simply "play the notes perfectly & in the right order & I've got it'. No, you most certainly DON'T. It has less to do with jealousy & more to do with the fact that, (unless you were raised in an Irish household in the U.S. where the traditional culture was strong) YOU ARE AN OUTSIDER! And the rules and restrictions were put in place to PRESERVE the tradition & protect it. It's kind of sad, actually, that many great Irish musicians have such a low opinion of their own culture that they try to adopt techniques from OUTSIDE the tradition (i.e. Western Classical Music), and it totally WRECKS their music. Back to the subject of the post; that was what their session had to be at that time. I'm sorry you seem to have issue with it, but it was THEIR session. Anybody who didn't (or doesn't) like it, is totally free to start their own. With as many (or as few) rules as they want!
(sound of inhaling). Sorry 'bout that. That was a bit emotional & over the top, but I felt the description of the Irish as simply
"jealous" was a bit much....
"A session is whatever the people having it want it to be. When you encounter a session, it is not up to you to determine whether or not it is legitimate. All you can do is suss out whether or not it's a session you enjoy and can either listen to or possibly join in with. If it's not for you... go somewhere else, maybe start one of your own, but please don't come here and whine about how it wasn't your personal idea of what a session is or isn't.
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by Phantom Button"
Perfect. Spot on IMO, and this covers the trilogy of "they did't let me sing" threads.
At the Plough and Stars, Mr. Button's local, the "hosts" --typically two or three people---decide what the session is. They run the show and are compensated (a little bit) for making sure things run smoothly.
I'm going to emphasize my 100% agreement with PB, & do not intend to attack any session he regularly attends, in the least. Joel, I'm not sure what you're on about. Sessions differ, to say the least.
Well, I entirely agree with Jack's post as others have done, but that Plough & Stars link kind of spoils it. Too many rules and protocols there for my taste (and I'm no session anarchist). Too much to put people off. All a bit precious. Not entirely intended to be inclusive. The real world of bunches of hairy-arses having a bloody good time with their axes in the pub ain''t like that. Yet in other ways it's a bit lax. Two bodhrans too many? Ha. One bloody bodhran is too many, every time. And isn't it time we just agreed to call sessions sessions, avoiding that pretentious "seisiun" nonsense?
Just curious Steve, but what "rules and protocols" can you discern from the Plough link? One thing is for sure, there are some very fine musicians that show up for the sessions and the standard is quite high. if you're not a good player you might well be intimidated, but everyone who shows up is certainly welcome.
"However the jealous Irish began inventing some rules when the realised that musicians from the US of A were a lot better than them. And invented restrictions.
But sure, I only started in the Favourite in London, what would I know?"
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Um, you reached this conclusion how, exactly? Better how? I know some people who speak the French language exceptionally well, but I would never imagine this inspiring jealousy in people from, say, FRANCE! And oddly enough, Irish MUSIC is a language, too. While I agree that the good 'ol U.S. of A has produced some amazing technicians in the music field, I can say AS A YANK MYSELF that a large percentage of these players won't EVER have, or get, the "language" of real traditional music. Like Tommy Peoples does. Or Junior Crehan. Or, since you mentioned The Favourite, like Mairtin Byrnes (one of my personal faves). And while many of these older Irish musicians might well be impressed by technical skill, (MAYBE to the point of envy, you would have to ASK them, though!) I would think they could still tell when someone "DOESN'T GET IT". This music is an ART, not simply "play the notes perfectly & in the right order & I've got it'. No, you most certainly DON'T. It has less to do with jealousy & more to do with the fact that, (unless you were raised in an Irish household in the U.S. where the traditional culture was strong) YOU ARE AN OUTSIDER! And the rules and restrictions were put in place to PRESERVE the tradition & protect it. It's kind of sad, actually, that many great Irish musicians have such a low opinion of their own culture that they try to adopt techniques from OUTSIDE the tradition (i.e. Western Classical Music), and it totally WRECKS their music. Back to the subject of the post; that was what their session had to be at that time. I'm sorry you seem to have issue with it, but it was THEIR session. Anybody who didn't (or doesn't) like it, is totally free to start their own. With as many (or as few) rules as they want!
Well, I entirely agree with Jack's post as others have done, but that Plough & Stars link kind of spoils it. Too many rules and protocols there for my taste (and I'm no session anarchist). Too much to put people off. All a bit precious. Not entirely intended to be inclusive. The real world of bunches of hairy-arses having a bloody good time with their axes in the pub ain''t like that. Yet in other ways it's a bit lax. Two bodhrans too many? Ha. One bloody bodhran is too many, every time. And isn't it time we just agreed to call sessions sessions, avoiding that pretentious "seisiun" nonsense?
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by Steve Shaw
And a fine example of the jealousy, we have it all here.
Inventing "rules" to cover embarrassment, fear, jealousy, whatever.
I started going to sessions aged about 12, started playing aged 13.
Alas I played a harmonica, and while most real sessions didn't give a monkeys if it was a glockenspiel. a trombone or a harmonica as long as you played Irish tunes on it, that "fake" snobbery and elitism was starting to creep in.
At the "purist" sessions harmonicas were laughed at, especially by tweed coated, Irish speaking "traditionalists".
Incredible I only got acceptance at those "elite" sessions when I switched to badly playing an Italian mandolin, but full acceptance came with the bodhran.
Now It wasn't just me and my harmonica that suffered because of these ill informed snobs. My mate was BRILLIANT on the recorder, but he to was sneered at.
Now at real sessions, where everyone was welcome as long as you could play Irish music whatever the instrument, there was no problem.
Just the elite, jealous people who wanted to safeguard their little niche, and attempt to prevent Irish music becoming popular throughout the world.
The same people and type of people held back the Irish language for years as well.
No .Bodhrán is quite right.. That post is snobby and elitist even though I am sure jaychoons doesnt realise it. Jaychoons is saying that you need to be Irish to play right and thats nonsense.A large percentage of Irish musicians dont get it either.
It's interesting to see that old "Seisiun" page juxtaposed with my latest paragraph. Of course my latest piece is succinct and to the point, but the other, that I wrote over 10 years ago, was basically addressing the problems we were encountering at our local pub at the time. It is still linked to the pub's website, and titled "Seisiun" to match the website because that was the way the publican and I thought would be good to list it in the new website. (I love how Steve uses it as an opportunity to get his "pretentious" dig in at me,) but the decision to use that title was based on how the publican saw sessions being listed in his home town in Ireland and elsewhere around that country.
At the time we made the website, and that page, we had just adapted another feature we observed in sessions around Ireland; rotating hosts. But just before that, the session was being plagued with clueless guitarists and multiple or clueless bodhran players who seemed to show up every other week and spoil the sessions. We also had people starting tunes as if in a competition to see whose tune would win, and only the most aggressive players were managing to select tunes that were played. Because myself and a fiddler were the sole hosts in those days, it was up to me to deal with it on most occasions, and I used every ounce of diplomacy I could muster. Rarely did I walk away from these encounters with everyone happy, but sometimes I did. But more important is what I learned from the experience. What you see in that link is me trying to apply what I learned in an appeal to people that were interested in coming in to enjoy the sessions either as a participant or a listener.
We also were experiencing problems with session onlookers who were disrupting the session either through their indifference towards it or misguided or misinformed efforts to display their enthusiasm for it. Since then the crowd at the pub has become accustomed to being sushed for the odd song and they seem to understand better how loud laughter and outbursts can make it hard for us to play. Not to say we still don't have impossible nights with those issues, but all in all it seems the crowd of regulars that show up to listen understand this better.
Now I have no idea if anyone who came in to enjoy or participate in sessions paid any attention to that link, but most of the problems we were having seem to have subsided. I really think all I did in that link was to explain good manners and common decency, but I'm sure people in this forum that have a bone to pick with me will manage to ferret out points to attack me on. So at the end of the day, whatever it was that got our local sessioners and onlookers to become more in tune with the spirit of sessions... I'm grateful for it.
Anarchy sounds great in theory, but a few basic rules (or expections or reminders of what good manners are) can go a long way in keeping things running on an even keel!
I'm glad it worked, Jack. I didn't know that it was you who'd penned that, and I must say it seemed more like a universal prescription than a recipe for improving your own sessions. I could tell you things that we have to do which would not be anything like universally applicable, and I wouldn't put 'em up on a website that makes it look like I was making up universal session protocols. Local is good.
Actually, Steve, the feedback I've gotten from that page is that it applies to any session. People I never met have written and thanked me for posting it, and said they sent the link to it around to their sessioners in all sorts of places around the globe. Maybe it just doesn't apply in your corner of the sessionverse.
I think the only one's of us who cannot appreciate the following are those who live in a perfect world. I don't (live in a perfect world).
"So at the end of the day, whatever it was that got our local sessioners and onlookers to become more in tune with the spirit of sessions... I'm grateful for it."
October 31st 2010 by Phantom Button
That "one bodhran only" rule don't apply in our pub for a start. We have zero tolerance for such bloody abominations. Apart from that, lists of session rules are always faintly amusing. We should have a rule similar in sentiment to Jezza's on here ("be civil"): "if the buggers will actually let you in to play, behave yourself, respect their traditions and have fun." Obviously, this applies to everyone except bodhran players.
We have two or three bodhran players show up at the same time on occasion, and they usually take turns these days. Sometimes one will show up who's clueless and play regardless of what other bodhran players are doing. This usually results in a rhythmical cacophony and it prompts the polite and more musically adept player to give up. Sometimes I have to suggest to these players that they might want to take turns with the other bodhran players. This often has the desired effect, but for some it puts them off coming back again... but no one cries. It's funny how some people only value a session as being a place to come and bang twang pump blow or bow with no consideration to the other players or the music that's being made.
Just tell 'em to sod off and learn an instrument. Accommodating bodhranistas is very bad news. They seldom know when not to play and they usually don't know a bloody jig from a bull's foot. And, once you've got one, they stick like sh*t to a blanket.
Take the cross bar out and carry pints of Guinness in it to your friends.
I play it too. It's been on top of the spare room wardrobe for 13 years and I dust it once a week. It never moves. It sits there as permanent testament to my past mistakes.
I like a good bodhran joke as well as anyone, and no instrument is immune to friendly slagging.
I've also seen a bodhran beat so thoroughly that it threatened to ruin the session all together, until someone stepped in and asked them to quiet down and sit out some sets. And it's true that the melody instruments are sufficient in carrying the tune *and* the rhythm. A drum isn't necessary.
But I get tired of the endless derision and dismissal of bodhrans here. A bodhran played with discretion by someone who knows the music and listens well is welcome in our local session. We're fortunate to have a few such players in our town.
From Wiki:
"Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies)[1][2] is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1989 which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2] In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all discussions—regardless of topic or scope—inevitably end up being about Hitler and the Nazis."
I hereby submit the modestly named Brown's Law:
"As a discussion on thesession.org grows longer, the probability of a derisive comment about a bodhran approaches 1."
"Jaychoons is saying that you need to be Irish to play right and thats nonsense.A large percentage of Irish musicians dont get it either."
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by big_tab
Actually, that's not what I meant to infer, Tab, but that's my fault because I responded in an emotional (& admittedly, not very clear-headed) manner. The examples of great traditional players I chose DID all happen to be Irish, true enough. But there ARE a small but healthy percentage of us Yanks who "get it", too. Willie Kelly is one of my favorite American players, Jesse Smith a close second. But (and I'm guessing here) The Tradition was most likely very strong in those households when they were growing up. You're right when you say there's a great many Irish players who don't "get it" either; I look at a great many of the Fleadh competitors shown on the Comhaltas site and, to my ears anyway, DON'T hear great Irish music. So I think Mad Baloney has it right; yes, there is Snobbery in this music, but IMO it's a function of quality control, not jealousy!
The problem is, any time you try to put "common courtesy" into writing, into a into a set of guidelines, it's going to be seen by some as preachy, intolerant, snobbish, etc.
About bodhran players, we have one who comes around sometimes who is a fine player and if anything is too deferential, plays too little. His playing adds to the session in my opinion.
We often dont' have any guitarists but when we have more than one they usually take turns.
"Blind unadulterated prejudice is much easier" ... I don't know Bliss, for a start, how the devil do they manage to balance, with that huge chip on their shoulder .... way up there on their High Horse?
A session is whatever the people having it want it to be. When you encounter a session, it is not up to you to determine whether or not it is legitimate. All you can do is suss out whether or not it's a session you enjoy and can either listen to or possibly join in with.
"A session is whatever the people having it want it to be. When you encounter a session, it is not up to you to determine whether or not it is legitimate. All you can do is suss out whether or not it's a session you enjoy and can either listen to or possibly join in with."
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Random_humour
Sigh, indeed, Random. Enjoyed the link to the Plough & Stars immensely! I Will be printing it to give away as a handout for a couple of sessions I anchor with my mates (with discretion, of course...some sensitive types could easliy mistake being handed one of these as an affront to their undoubtedly incredible musiscianship!). I think handing out one of these to an obvious newcomer (with a welcoming handshake & a smile!) could go a long way towards dispelling the "Oh, they're just a bunch of folk Nazis" myth. Without this approach, the whole situation becomes very uncomfortable for the regulars AND the newbies. Nip it in the bud with a clear statement of what is expected, I say.
Each of us gets on the soap box when we post our comments &/or responses. It looks easy until you actually post something & receive the feedback. Traditional music forums are still a work in progress.
Fair play. I'm sussing out how I may be allowed to ask my question. You might say it is a work in progress. You might say it is the question everyone is asking themselves. Ultimately, I am extremely humbled that something so simple should take such effort.
The title of this thread, "Is there snobery (sic) in Irish music?" Since this question is being asked on thesession.org I think it only appropriate to address all concerns about how musicians regard sessions. In the question(s) below I am assuming this next quotation is most relevant,
"A session is whatever the people having it want it to be. When you encounter a session, it is not up to you to determine whether or not it is legitimate. All you can do is suss out whether or not it's a session you enjoy and can either listen to or possibly join in with."
I agree with the above.
Hypothetically ... if some musicians have a regular session at a pub & they want others to know they (from the viewpoint of the musicians) are not performing, is it up to anyone other than themselves to determine whether or not this is legitimate? Accepting of course some onlookers may consider the session (from the onlookers viewpoint) to be a public performance. Is it up to anyone other than those in the session to whine because the musicians do not consider it a public performance?
IMHO, no & no.
also, imho, it is not snobbery, arrogance, nor hubris that a session is whatever the people having it want it to be...
even if it is different from how I would have a session.
I think there's a lot - a LOT - of overthinking on this. It's actually a very simple notion, and I've never seen anyone have any real difficulty with it in real life, unless they were well and truly p*ssed.
"What are you all doing here?"
"We're playing tunes. No, we're not doing requests, unless you have good taste and you remind me of a song that I'd forgotten that I really do want to sing, and that doesn't really happen a lot. Oh, pardon me, I like this tune, I'd like to sit down and play now, nice talking to you, enjoy yourself!"
The big misconception I get - and I have to explain this over and over - is "No, we're not a band". But that's to my friends who say "oh, I'd like to come and hear your band some time". Well, i haven't got one of those, but you can stop in on a Wednesday and I'll likely be playing. But the patrons of the pub seem to grasp the concept pretty well - maybe it's because we're never do any of the things that bands do - announcements from the stage, pluggings of CDs, "well be back next week, here's one more, safe home", looking at the audience, playing two sets of tunes without five minutes of chat between them, that sort of thing. Lots of subtle clues for the punters, and bless 'em, they get it.
Jon, here's hoping we can have this little bit of conversation. As you might know I sometimes take my time to type up comments & responses. Earlier tonight I was typing up one such comment to express my pleasure that we might actually resolve an old issue. As it turned out I never made that post due to circumstances beyond my control. I'll just say I feel the board might actually be going in a good direction. I certainly hope at least the door is beginning to open.
I keep telling myself the mustard is an experimental work in progress.
Let's hope. Might happen. Anyway, there's my take on the matter, for what it's worth: of course it's up to the musicians, always has been. Never been a question, except in this room.
Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Do Irish musicain have a snobery regarding the instrument you play? On monday night in Cobblestone they won't let guitarist into sessions
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by jmccy
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Some people prefer to think of it as quality control.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Then buy yourself a bodhran! That'll show 'em!
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by shanty
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I'm off to the Cobblestone on modays from now on
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by ...
Re: Is there Snobbery in Irish music?
how exactly are the guitar players stopped from playing? what if a whole bunch of us guitar players gate-crashed and staged a sit in until we could play along to Drowsie Maggie? What would the fiddle players do to stop us. Would they front up to us with their bows? What if I flicked a plectrum in disgust at the concertina players? Or is it with the banjo players who would kick arse? It sounds a bit playground'ish...
MInd you I'll never play a tune from Kerry or Kilkenny for sporting reasons (Cork being the 2010 All Ireland football champions!...need I remind you).
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by mickyfong
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Hmm - well there is a chance I will be in Dublin on Monday 15th November with my guitar. I could always test out your theory jmccy.
Who does the Monday night session there?
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery (sic.) in Irish music?
BTW I love how mickyfong corrected your spelling of "snobbery". Now that is snobbery for you.
Shame he couldn't spell "Drowsy" though or use capital letters at the start of most of his sentences.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Doh, I was gonna be in Dublin on the 15th. I'll not bother now
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by ...
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
haha
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
We've been trying to jettison our guitarist for years... ...let me know how they did it ;P
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Jamie
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
NCFA, at least when you're bored of making all that racket with your guitar you can always whip out the whistle and play some real music...
Hee hee hee....
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Last time I whipped out my whistle it caused the ladies present to faint! Perhaps I should stick to the guitar.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Frightening. Very frightening.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
jmccy if it was a fairly small group of musicians & there was already a Guitar player in the session, then I could see their point. In my opinion, most sessions work best if certain instruments are represented by only a single player, so things like Guitars, Banjos, Accordions, Bodhrans often tend to clash if there are two. It's hard to judge though, not knowing the full story.
However, if there were no Guitar players already & a musician was barred from the session, before they even had a chance to prove themselves, then yes, I reckon that may well be a case of arrogant snobbery in action.
Makes you wonder how they would react if, unknown to them, the Worlds worst ever Fiddle player walked in & asked to join them! Would they welcome him in, just because he had the right shaped case under his arm?
Perhaps it's time for ALL instruments to come in Fiddle Shaped Cases, to neutralise the negative effects of all Irish Music's arrogant Snobs!
These guys may have been the sort who, from their vantage point way up there on their ivory tower, if they don't actually recognise a musician, then surely he or she can't possibly be up to their high standard.
One day, they'll probably chase someone like Alec Finn away, just because he walks in with a Bouzouki case under his arm, on the way home from the barbers shop!
Next time jmccy, don't worry, if that was their attitude, they were probably no fun to play with anyway. I'm sure that's not the only session in town, there's bound to be a friendly one somewhere.
Better luck next time.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Stick to the (woman)...
...that might be where you are going wrong.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Jamie
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
In my experience the quality of the music in a session is proportional to the standards set.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Jamie
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I'll put my disclaimer in up front: my regular session is pretty laid back open and welcoming which is how I personally prefer my nights out to be. Has bit us on the bum a couple of times, mind.
But, no-one has a right to turn up to a session and expect the regulars to welcome them with open arms regardless of ability, instrument or repertoire (hello I play old-time tunes on the trombone, I've only been at it for 3 months).
The regulars at a session are well within their rights to exclude guitars, drums, or even any visitors. There is no intrinsic right to sit in on someone else's night out.
Sure that *isn't* how I like to go about life. I like to see visitors, and we're happy with sympathetic guitars and bodhrans*. But surely folks can set the rules for thier own party?
- Chris
*regrettably with much soul searching and after prolonged exposure we do however draw the line at djembe's/bongos etc.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
<Is there Snobery in Irish music? >
YES ! -- What's new -- lol..
jim,,,
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
"no-one has a right to turn up to a session and expect the regulars to welcome them with open arms regardless of ability"
RP, that's why I said it was hard to comment really, when we didn't actually know all the facts.
The guys may very well have been very polite & simply pointed out that they had a very good reason, perhaps they already had a Guitar player, or there was no room, or they already had accompaniment from a Bouzouki or a Piano, or whatever.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
The Cobblestone is a paid session - it's unlikely that they're particularly welcoming of anyone they don't already know to be a good player. And why should they be welcoming? It would be nice if many people learned to be more appreciative of the good music they hear and less desperate to join in at any cost. Assuming that you're a strong player I guess you should be able to appreciate that.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
@Dick, I had cross-posted with your earlier message and wasn't arguing against it.
).
For what it's worth I suspect my attitude to visitors and session openess would be pretty similar to our own. But I don't think it is right to expect all sessions to welcome you just because you turn up with an instrument (even though we'd be inclined to make you welcome
- Chris
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
mickeyfong, How do melody players stop strummers? Well, if they stop playing the melody, there's not much point to it all, is there?
Always go to a session and listen, and speak to the participants, before bringing an instrument. Unless of course, you are invited to attend, or the gathering has been recommended to you by a friend that knows both the session and your abilities. If you do bring an instrument the first time, be content if you don't play it much, or don't play it at all. Sessions do not always welcome all comers, and as people have stated above, there are some good practical reasons for this.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Ah thanks for the explanation DR. So what we're actually talking about here then is a Gig, not a Session. In which case, certainly no other musician can expect a welcome to join in.
Perhaps it's a pity though that these Gigs are not more honestly advertised as such, instead of misleading folks by calling them Sessions.
We were joined recently at our session, up here on the North Coast, by a very good Canadian Fiddle player. We had a great night swopping tunes & a few weeks later I received a thankyou eMail from him, saying he'd been very disappointed to find only two open sessions during his two week trip from Donegal to Kerry - our session & one in Kerry.
All the rest were paid Gigs!
Perhaps the era of the Open Session is now over & we are entering the reign of the Irish Traditional Gig or .......... Pseudo Session!
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
@ Chris "(even though we'd be inclined to make you welcome .."
Not if you heard me first!
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Does Mary Begley still lead the Monday night session @ Cobblestone? I went several years ago, and she was such a delightful person, and it was such a delightful session. Not a shred of snobbery in the lot of them.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by browndog
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Just because it is a paid session it doesn't automatically stop it being an open session. Also just because it is an unpaid session shouldn't automatically make it a free-for-all.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Well if it is Mary's session on the Monday night then that is the one session in the Cobblestone I have been in - and with my guitar. I was made to feel welcome and was also taught why the Lisbon Treaty is a bad thing.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I thought it was only Christians who were barred from sessions!
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Johnny Jay
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Ptarmigan..The paid sessions seem to me to be the open ones. Where people get together without a paid musician they can be the scary ones if someone makes a false move!
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
@ NCfA "Just because it is a paid session it doesn't automatically stop it being an open session."
Absolutely right. I know of three up here, where a small core are paid, but the sessions have still remained open to all, so it can indeed work & work very well.
However, I am led to believe that further south, things aren't always quite so open, perhaps because there are far more musicians on the ground, so being totally open to all would simply be impractical.
I'm sure attitudes are bound to differ though, depending on whether a session is based in the heart of Dublin or Galway, or say the backwoods of Alaska!
Which begs the question, do they have trees in Alaska ... or just snow?
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I got to join in at The Cobblestone with my harmonicas. Mind you, all I did was lurk at the edge for a bit and only gently and gradually let it be known I was armed. I even got invited to another session the next night. I suppose it's hard to do that with a guitar. Something awful happens inside me when I see an unknown person brandishing a guitar case. Experience shows that indulgence is almost always a serious mistake. That's the problem you have to live with, mate.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
"Which begs the question, do they have trees in Alaska ... or just snow?"
I am not sure anyone can say for sure. No one has been to check.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Several years ago(almost 20), I attended a session in Sandy Bells with my guitar.
I was made VERY welcome BUT before I even played a note, the "old timers" who had the wee Scottish session there advised me that they appreciated a simple backing and "Nane o' this fancy stuff" and they preferred that I didn't play(or attempt) to play the melody or tune as such.
Every session and group of players will have different ideas but, basically, "it's their ball" and they have the right to choose who they play with and to decide the rules of the game.
Ptarmigan, you'll remember them all
http://www.campin.me.uk/MusicPhotos/Bells/jimmy-johnny-iain.jpg
Johnny wasn't there that night but he was always very friendly and welcoming too if you were ever lucky enough to be in his company.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Johnny Jay
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
They have Sarah Palin in Alaska - unless she's decamped.
****!! SARAH PALIN IS CUDDLY !!****
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I believe she has decamped to wherever they broadcast Fox "News" from.
If Palin is cuddly does that mean that we can shoot her?
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
@Ptarmigan I meant "you" as in generic, there will always be exceptions
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Dick, you nailed it-it's could be the difference between an open session-all welcome-and a loose unrehearsed concert given by musicians who may not play together regularly and have some spontaneity; I agree it's confusing to call the latter a "session." I brought an instrument to a session in a pub in Nova Scotia only to find it was a concert with "guests." The musicians were not snobby at all-it was just set up that way.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by primrose lass
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
"mickeyfong, How do melody players stop strummers? Well, if they stop playing the melody, there's not much point to it all, is there"?
AlBrown I'll keep playing no matter what. Even if they stop playing the tune I can still him it in my head (or even better I can hum it on the bodhran).
Sorted
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by mickyfong
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Of course there is snobbery. Only an out and out snob would turn away this gentleman from a session, but who would have the guts to tell him???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA1lFQ2rY3U
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Free Reed
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Jeez Free Reed, had to go and change my boxer shorts after watching that!
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by bogman
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
do one legged ducks swim in big circles?
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by zippydw
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Zippy, have you been making bodhran tippers again?
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Ptarmigan, there are certainly trees in Alaska; but if you want to see snow you'd better be quick, unless we start taking Climate Change seriously.
You probably won't see Sarah Palin there though. She seems to spend most of her time in the audience of Dancing With The Stars, where her daughter is a competitor.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Ahhh Free Reed, so that's what Adrian Edmondson is doing these days!
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
It's not a matter of snobbery; it's a matter of preference. But I think guitars and bodhrans receive the same trepidation when people who are unknown to sessions approach carrying those instruments. One reason is that the people who play them often have the notion they can just bang along to any tune and everyone will love it, and they are often completely oblivious to the negative impact they might be having. If someone approaches with those instruments sans any sense of entitlement regarding their joining in, they have a better chance of being included, but the people having the session have good reason to ban such potential musical hazards if they are unsure of the person who is handling it... or if they just prefer the music without it.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Yes there is snobbery in this music and I have experienced it occasionally because I don't play a "traditional" acoustic instrument. Because I am a piano player who uses an electronic keyboard (a digital piano) I have been told that I really ought to learn to play a "real" instrument such as a fiddle, flute, tin whistle, button accordion, etc. (I am not going to mention any names because the guilty party knows who they are)
At our local sessions, I try to work closely with the one guitarist who shows up regularly to make sure we are playing the same chords at the same time. We are trying to avoid ruining the tunes and the session for the other musicians who are there. We are both aware that these tunes are perfectly capable of standing up on their own without any help from an accompanist/backup musician so we do our best to ensure that the tunes are properly and smoothly accompanied. Neither one of us wants to be a session wrecker.
Unfortunately, sometimes another musician (who is an ageing hippie, New Age type person) shows up with his guitar, soprano recorder, and bodhran. When he plays his guitar, he plays the wrong chords and the wrong rhythm half of the time as well as playing too loudly. If I am sitting next to him, it is difficult for me to hear the melody players. I ignore his mistakes and continue playing. I haven't said anything to him about his playing yet because he has tried to encourage me and help me find other places to play (unlike the Folk Nazis at the local sessions who seem to do their best to discourage anyone who doesn't meet their too strict criteria or standards for a folk musician).
When I have asked to sit in and participate at a session out of town and out of state where they don't know me and have never seen me before, I am usually asked whether or not I have ever played at an Irish session before and how much experience do I have playing piano at Irish sessions. I think these questions are fair and am glad to answer them because they don't know me and they have never heard me play before. They want to know whether or not I can fit in and whether or not I might or might not ruin their local session.
As for whether or not there are any trees in Alaska, the answer is yes there are trees in Alaska. One of my first cousins and his family used to live in Wasilla next door to some crazy woman named Sarah Palin and her family. They got along just fine with the Palins until Sarah got this crazy notion to enter politics and run for elective office.
Laurence
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Is there snobbery in Irish music? Of course there is. There is snobbery in any social gathering of humans. Knitting cirlces, poker nights, car clubs, dungeons and dragons geeks, motorcycle clubs, bluegrass jams, The Snobs Society of South San Salvador - any group you can think of. That's how we human roll. This is based on varying degrees of investment and interest in the things for which we gather.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Are there trees in Alaska?!? Seriously?
Um, let's see. The Tongass National Forest (located in Alaska) is 69,000 square km (which is less than 5% of Alaska's total area). For reference, the total area of the Republic of Ireland is about 70,000 square km.
So yes, they have trees. Man, do they have trees!
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Jameson Stew
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
No Jameson, not seriously. But never mind.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by bogman
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I know, NCFA. But still, that's a lotta trees, no?
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Jameson Stew
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Yes. Lots of trees. Trees, some bears and a view of Russia. Well done.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Interestingly (or not), according to the US Dept of Agriculture Alaska has less native species of trees than any other state although there are as many trees in Alaska as in all the other states put together.
I wonder if that statistic takes Puerto Rico into account...
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Do they have trees in Puerto Rico?
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Jameson Stew
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I haven't been so wouldn't know. I thought you were the arborial expert for the colonies anyway (and their respective colonies!).
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Well that is that question answered:
http://www.destination360.com/caribbean/puerto-rico/puerto-rico-beaches
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Alas, my arborial expertise (impressive though it may be) is limited to the harsh northern climes. I therefore defer to your superior knowledge.
# Posted on October 27th 2010 by Jameson Stew
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
why is it being called "snobbery"? i fell for this music because it is melody-prominent and swing-prominent. instruments, or ways of playing those instruments, which destroy that by drowning out the melody instruments and/or using a slamming, unsyncopated um, "driving" rhythm, destroy my experience of playing this music and encourage me to express my tommy potts side and play reclusively. i fail to see that as "snobbery." no one seems to be stopping these instruments and ways of playing them from clashing and banging in any public venue they wish to enter, though everywhere and particularly ireland i believe, there is plenty of wonderful music being made in private precisely to avoid the whole issue.....
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by ceemonster
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
If it's a paid gig, then the question isn't about session attitudes; or even about guitars in Irish music. It's only about what the paid musicians decide.
I know,"A session is a public gig!" Oy vey.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Is the pope a Catholic?
It used to be really talented newcomers who were snobs who invented all sorts of rules and such, and sneered at other instruments, and singers, and anyone who looked like they were enjoying themselves.
Alas this is now starting to affect Irish people who should know better.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Random, whether people are being paid or not doesn't determine whether or not it's a session or what people's preferences or perceived rights are regarding having a session. It's about manners and common decency. You don't walk up to people having a conversation and ask if they're being paid to have the conversation and based on that decide whether it's all right to impose yourself or otherwise disrupt the conversation they were having... right? The same is true if you come across people playing tunes together in a pub; you listen, decide if you can add to their conversation or not and ask if they wouldn't mind you joining in... not whether or not they are being paid.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Quite right Mr Button.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by ...
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
We don't do snobbery in Irish music down in Kernow because we can't afford to. We have enough trouble getting enough melody players (hey, I said melody). But what we don't need is any more geetar men or goat-flayers. That isn't snobbery, it simply means that we have enough already. If we say no to extra guitarists or bodhran owners it doesn't mean we're snobs. It means we know the difference between a good night in the pub and a bloody nightmare.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I played in the cobblestone on a Monday not too long ago; a friend of mine invited me along as he was filling in for Mary Begley. My main instrument is the Flute but I also play the bouzouki and that is what I played that night I was accepted more or less. One comment that I should play a bit quieter on one tune as there was only a whistle player playing. Of course after that I played a few tunes on the flute and the guilty party apologized to me after that! To answer the question; yes there is snobbery in traditional music and it is quite alive and well in the Cobblestone, but that really depends on when you go and who's playing. Most of the times I have gone there I have played flute and not been welcomed at all sat there the whole night and nobody said a word to me.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Why Bother?
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
ha ha, that's priceless:
You were asked by someone to strum a bit quieter on a tune as there was only a whistle player playing ... and you refer to that person the "guilty party"?
Says it all
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by ...
Re: Are there porcupines in Irish music?
Yes, of course there are porcupines in Irish music....!....DUH!
In Alaska, porcupines are considered to be cuddly too.
Of course, a pair of pliers should be kept handy for tidying up after cuddling with a porcupine.
And how, you may ask does one go about cuddling with a porcupine?
Verrrrrry......Carefully!
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
NCA: Puerto Rico probably wouldn't be included in "all the other states together" as it isn't a state, it's not even part of the US
- chris
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
http://www.prstatehood.com/about-uscprs/index.asp
It is within the Union. It is just considered to have second-class status. There is a big campaign for Statehood.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Are my illusions shattered by the music stand in the picture from Sandy Bell's? (I remember it as The Forrest Row Bar)
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I haven't found such snobbery in Scottish sessions. In fact, the opposite is true. One of the first sessions I went to (Ma Cameron's in Aberdeen, many years ago!) I was encouraged to get my mandolin out and join in. My protestations about lack of ability were pooh-poohed. I did struggle through a couple of the slower tunes and all the musicians there were nothing but complimentary and encouraging.
I remember that session with fondness and it served as encouragement for me to continue to learn and improve. Indeed, had it not been for the gentlemen that encouraged me that night (or had I been in the company of snobs) I may have given up playing for good.
One of those gentlemen was none other than Aly Bain.
To all those who have encouraged me, or any other novice................I thank you!
Iain
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by clavey
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
@Clavey
Kenny may have been one of them!? A total rock when it comes to encouraging good music, getting hold of good versions of tunes for people to learn from and of course not tolerating sh1t.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Jamie
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Clavey - you say you were encouraged to get your mandolin out and you struggled through a few slow tunes - great. You didn't invite yourself into a session, you were welcomed. There's a big difference.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Jamie - quite correct on all counts!
DG - I suppose it all comes down to manners - on everyone's part
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by clavey
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
@Dragut
I've been playing for 7 or so years now and my attitude going to a new session is the same as its always been. Usually to prop up the bar with a pint, listen and hang back and wait to chat to someone from the session up at the bar and wait to be invited to join the session. I also hang back and wait to be invited to play a tune once sat down and make an effort to fit in. It may just be a reflection of my personality, as I'm a but backwards in coming forwards, but I have never come across anything that could be called snobbery having employed this attitude in numerous different sessions in Scotland, Ireland and England. I've seen plenty of standard setting... ...but that's a different matter.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Jamie
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
We don't do snobbery in Irish music down in Kernow because we can't afford to. We have enough trouble getting enough melody players (hey, I said melody). But what we don't need is any more geetar men or goat-flayers. That isn't snobbery, it simply means that we have enough already. If we say no to extra guitarists or bodhran owners it doesn't mean we're snobs. It means we know the difference between a good night in the pub and a bloody nightmare.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Steve Shaw
See what I mean?
Now you call that stupidity or snobbery, amounts to the same thing.
At a CONCERT in the Albert Hall or whatever you could object to the odd guitarist/drummer/harmonica player, but at a SESSION?
Some people simply don't know what a session is.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Bliss - if you think you know what a session is, and others don't, you probably don't. Your sessions might be a take-all-comers bring-your-bongos free-form jazz extravaganza with beat poetry readings and slide whistles for all I know. If I came in expecting a session and found that, I'd leave, but if it works for you, that's fine.
Steve's session might be him and his buddies sitting around a table with their regular crew and no, they don't need another guitar player, and if that works for them, that's fine too. If I came in with my guitar, and a guitarist wasn't needed, maybe I'd leave, or maybe I'd stay and listen, but it's their thing and it's not my place to force my way in.
What I don't get is the idea that there's one thing that can be called a session, and that someone here knows what it is, and all others are wrong. To me, that seems a bit mental.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
There is always a tension in this thread between people who like sessions dedicated to Irish (or Scottish) tunes played by musos who have put some work into learning the music and people who think the musical process embodied in a session should be open to anyone who stumbles in the door.
As if it can't be both....
The reality is that there are sessions which fall into both categories and everyting in between.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Ok, technically, in terms of mere label, it maybe both, in the sense that some people call their unmusical rammy a session,...
..but if defining sessions with reference to the music, I don't recognise your latter description as something of any musical value.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Jamie
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
FWIW I play guitar in the Cobblestone every week.
I drive the session.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Jamie - which description are you referring to there? If you mean Emily's "open to anyone who stumbles in the door", I've played with a guy who took exactly that view, and the sessions have been fine. The guy who held it together would ask just about anyone who was in the joint if they wanted to sing a song, or tell a story, or tell a joke, or join in in some fashion. Often they said no, and that was fine, sometimes they'd come and sing something and sometimes it wasn't very good, and that was okay too, sometimes they'd be quite good at something that wasn't Irish trad, but it was nice to hear, because it was something they did well and enjoyed. And then there were the swing dancers who happened in, and they livened up a set of pair of hornpipes quite proper.
Mostly, though, we played tunes of the same sort you play at any session, and it didn't really prevent any music from happening. It just meant we met some interesting people.
I don't think it's the way I'd choose to do things if I were to be asked to choose a way to do things, but it was a fun session and I learned a lot there.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I'm like the glue that holds all the melody together.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Jig, is that you?
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Too much glue can also turn something into a sticky mess...
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
That's ok.
I fight with sticks.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Hugo - your gluey guitar playing puts you in a rare class. Many find guitar players to be the current we melody players must swim against.
# Posted on October 28th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Is that the opposite of melody players who come unglued and forget what they are playing because they have either drunk too much or not enough?
Laurence
# Posted on October 29th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: Is there SyrupStik in Irish music?
If you stick with SyrupStik your wig will never ever become unglued.
# Posted on October 29th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Sessions, used to be at people's houses, it was ENTERTAINING, everyone joined in.
They then expanded into pubs in England and then everywhere.
However the jealous Irish began inventing some rules when the realised that musicians from the US of A were a lot better than them. And invented restrictions.
But sure, I only started in the Favourite in London, what would I know?
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I don't wear a wig and have no intention of ever wearing one. Also, I prefer to use Gorilla Glue for minor repairs around the house because it holds better than SyrupStik.
Laurence
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
A session is whatever the people having it want it to be. When you encounter a session, it is not up to you to determine whether or not it is legitimate. All you can do is suss out whether or not it's a session you enjoy and can either listen to or possibly join in with. If it's not for you... go somewhere else, maybe start one of your own, but please don't come here and whine about how it wasn't your personal idea of what a session is or isn't.
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Agree 100% about sessions. Now if the same civility is applied to discussions that would be grand. Of course, without a bit of controversy we might never look in the mirror. Self reflection helps keep hubris in check. imho a good discussion board is a balance of intelligence, emotion, civility, & creativity.
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
This is an excellent example of resourceful musicians, upon not finding what they hoped for, did not despair ...
Re: When is a Session not a Session?
November 15th 2007 by Bannerman
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15784/comments#comment328046
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
"However the jealous Irish began inventing some rules when the realised that musicians from the US of A were a lot better than them. And invented restrictions.
But sure, I only started in the Favourite in London, what would I know?"
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Um, you reached this conclusion how, exactly? Better how? I know some people who speak the French language exceptionally well, but I would never imagine this inspiring jealousy in people from, say, FRANCE! And oddly enough, Irish MUSIC is a language, too. While I agree that the good 'ol U.S. of A has produced some amazing technicians in the music field, I can say AS A YANK MYSELF that a large percentage of these players won't EVER have, or get, the "language" of real traditional music. Like Tommy Peoples does. Or Junior Crehan. Or, since you mentioned The Favourite, like Mairtin Byrnes (one of my personal faves). And while many of these older Irish musicians might well be impressed by technical skill, (MAYBE to the point of envy, you would have to ASK them, though!) I would think they could still tell when someone "DOESN'T GET IT". This music is an ART, not simply "play the notes perfectly & in the right order & I've got it'. No, you most certainly DON'T. It has less to do with jealousy & more to do with the fact that, (unless you were raised in an Irish household in the U.S. where the traditional culture was strong) YOU ARE AN OUTSIDER! And the rules and restrictions were put in place to PRESERVE the tradition & protect it. It's kind of sad, actually, that many great Irish musicians have such a low opinion of their own culture that they try to adopt techniques from OUTSIDE the tradition (i.e. Western Classical Music), and it totally WRECKS their music. Back to the subject of the post; that was what their session had to be at that time. I'm sorry you seem to have issue with it, but it was THEIR session. Anybody who didn't (or doesn't) like it, is totally free to start their own. With as many (or as few) rules as they want!
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by jaychoons
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
(sound of inhaling). Sorry 'bout that. That was a bit emotional & over the top, but I felt the description of the Irish as simply
"jealous" was a bit much....
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by jaychoons
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Jay, One must always take bodhran bliss' posts with a grain of salt, he likes to tweak everyone's noses, just to watch what happens!!!
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
"A session is whatever the people having it want it to be. When you encounter a session, it is not up to you to determine whether or not it is legitimate. All you can do is suss out whether or not it's a session you enjoy and can either listen to or possibly join in with. If it's not for you... go somewhere else, maybe start one of your own, but please don't come here and whine about how it wasn't your personal idea of what a session is or isn't.
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by Phantom Button"
Perfect. Spot on IMO, and this covers the trilogy of "they did't let me sing" threads.
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by bogman
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
At the Plough and Stars, Mr. Button's local, the "hosts" --typically two or three people---decide what the session is. They run the show and are compensated (a little bit) for making sure things run smoothly.
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by leoj
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I'm going to emphasize my 100% agreement with PB, & do not intend to attack any session he regularly attends, in the least. Joel, I'm not sure what you're on about. Sessions differ, to say the least.
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Clarity!
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by leoj
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Then I'll assume you approve, or at least can live with, the way things are done at the Plough & Stars.
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by Ben Steen
This is a link from the Plough & the Stars website, since leoj brought it up;
http://pweb.jps.net/~jgilder/seisiun.html
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Well, I entirely agree with Jack's post as others have done, but that Plough & Stars link kind of spoils it. Too many rules and protocols there for my taste (and I'm no session anarchist). Too much to put people off. All a bit precious. Not entirely intended to be inclusive. The real world of bunches of hairy-arses having a bloody good time with their axes in the pub ain''t like that. Yet in other ways it's a bit lax. Two bodhrans too many? Ha. One bloody bodhran is too many, every time. And isn't it time we just agreed to call sessions sessions, avoiding that pretentious "seisiun" nonsense?
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Plough and Stars has some great sessions!
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by leoj
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Just curious Steve, but what "rules and protocols" can you discern from the Plough link? One thing is for sure, there are some very fine musicians that show up for the sessions and the standard is quite high. if you're not a good player you might well be intimidated, but everyone who shows up is certainly welcome.
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by leoj
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
"However the jealous Irish began inventing some rules when the realised that musicians from the US of A were a lot better than them. And invented restrictions.
But sure, I only started in the Favourite in London, what would I know?"
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Um, you reached this conclusion how, exactly? Better how? I know some people who speak the French language exceptionally well, but I would never imagine this inspiring jealousy in people from, say, FRANCE! And oddly enough, Irish MUSIC is a language, too. While I agree that the good 'ol U.S. of A has produced some amazing technicians in the music field, I can say AS A YANK MYSELF that a large percentage of these players won't EVER have, or get, the "language" of real traditional music. Like Tommy Peoples does. Or Junior Crehan. Or, since you mentioned The Favourite, like Mairtin Byrnes (one of my personal faves). And while many of these older Irish musicians might well be impressed by technical skill, (MAYBE to the point of envy, you would have to ASK them, though!) I would think they could still tell when someone "DOESN'T GET IT". This music is an ART, not simply "play the notes perfectly & in the right order & I've got it'. No, you most certainly DON'T. It has less to do with jealousy & more to do with the fact that, (unless you were raised in an Irish household in the U.S. where the traditional culture was strong) YOU ARE AN OUTSIDER! And the rules and restrictions were put in place to PRESERVE the tradition & protect it. It's kind of sad, actually, that many great Irish musicians have such a low opinion of their own culture that they try to adopt techniques from OUTSIDE the tradition (i.e. Western Classical Music), and it totally WRECKS their music. Back to the subject of the post; that was what their session had to be at that time. I'm sorry you seem to have issue with it, but it was THEIR session. Anybody who didn't (or doesn't) like it, is totally free to start their own. With as many (or as few) rules as they want!
# Posted on October 30th 2010 by jaychoons
Snobbery!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Downright elitism, the Brahman caste at large.
That post provides the answer in the affirmative.
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Nah, it's a rant. You're just hoping to pat yourself on the back for this one, bb.
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Well, I entirely agree with Jack's post as others have done, but that Plough & Stars link kind of spoils it. Too many rules and protocols there for my taste (and I'm no session anarchist). Too much to put people off. All a bit precious. Not entirely intended to be inclusive. The real world of bunches of hairy-arses having a bloody good time with their axes in the pub ain''t like that. Yet in other ways it's a bit lax. Two bodhrans too many? Ha. One bloody bodhran is too many, every time. And isn't it time we just agreed to call sessions sessions, avoiding that pretentious "seisiun" nonsense?
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by Steve Shaw
And a fine example of the jealousy, we have it all here.
Inventing "rules" to cover embarrassment, fear, jealousy, whatever.
I started going to sessions aged about 12, started playing aged 13.
Alas I played a harmonica, and while most real sessions didn't give a monkeys if it was a glockenspiel. a trombone or a harmonica as long as you played Irish tunes on it, that "fake" snobbery and elitism was starting to creep in.
At the "purist" sessions harmonicas were laughed at, especially by tweed coated, Irish speaking "traditionalists".
Incredible I only got acceptance at those "elite" sessions when I switched to badly playing an Italian mandolin, but full acceptance came with the bodhran.
Now It wasn't just me and my harmonica that suffered because of these ill informed snobs. My mate was BRILLIANT on the recorder, but he to was sneered at.
Now at real sessions, where everyone was welcome as long as you could play Irish music whatever the instrument, there was no problem.
Just the elite, jealous people who wanted to safeguard their little niche, and attempt to prevent Irish music becoming popular throughout the world.
The same people and type of people held back the Irish language for years as well.
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
No .Bodhrán is quite right.. That post is snobby and elitist even though I am sure jaychoons doesnt realise it. Jaychoons is saying that you need to be Irish to play right and thats nonsense.A large percentage of Irish musicians dont get it either.
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by big_tab
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Crosspost. I agree with bodhráns last post too!
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by big_tab
a snob would not submit the 2nd posting.
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
It's interesting to see that old "Seisiun" page juxtaposed with my latest paragraph. Of course my latest piece is succinct and to the point, but the other, that I wrote over 10 years ago, was basically addressing the problems we were encountering at our local pub at the time. It is still linked to the pub's website, and titled "Seisiun" to match the website because that was the way the publican and I thought would be good to list it in the new website. (I love how Steve uses it as an opportunity to get his "pretentious" dig in at me,) but the decision to use that title was based on how the publican saw sessions being listed in his home town in Ireland and elsewhere around that country.
At the time we made the website, and that page, we had just adapted another feature we observed in sessions around Ireland; rotating hosts. But just before that, the session was being plagued with clueless guitarists and multiple or clueless bodhran players who seemed to show up every other week and spoil the sessions. We also had people starting tunes as if in a competition to see whose tune would win, and only the most aggressive players were managing to select tunes that were played. Because myself and a fiddler were the sole hosts in those days, it was up to me to deal with it on most occasions, and I used every ounce of diplomacy I could muster. Rarely did I walk away from these encounters with everyone happy, but sometimes I did. But more important is what I learned from the experience. What you see in that link is me trying to apply what I learned in an appeal to people that were interested in coming in to enjoy the sessions either as a participant or a listener.
We also were experiencing problems with session onlookers who were disrupting the session either through their indifference towards it or misguided or misinformed efforts to display their enthusiasm for it. Since then the crowd at the pub has become accustomed to being sushed for the odd song and they seem to understand better how loud laughter and outbursts can make it hard for us to play. Not to say we still don't have impossible nights with those issues, but all in all it seems the crowd of regulars that show up to listen understand this better.
Now I have no idea if anyone who came in to enjoy or participate in sessions paid any attention to that link, but most of the problems we were having seem to have subsided. I really think all I did in that link was to explain good manners and common decency, but I'm sure people in this forum that have a bone to pick with me will manage to ferret out points to attack me on. So at the end of the day, whatever it was that got our local sessioners and onlookers to become more in tune with the spirit of sessions... I'm grateful for it.
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Anarchy sounds great in theory, but a few basic rules (or expections or reminders of what good manners are) can go a long way in keeping things running on an even keel!
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Is there snobery in Irish Music? Does the pope wear a funny hat? There is snobery in every kind of music.
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by B Rad
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I'm glad it worked, Jack. I didn't know that it was you who'd penned that, and I must say it seemed more like a universal prescription than a recipe for improving your own sessions. I could tell you things that we have to do which would not be anything like universally applicable, and I wouldn't put 'em up on a website that makes it look like I was making up universal session protocols. Local is good.
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
In an age of text messaging & traditional forums, what was once unwritten is now being rewritten several times over.
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Actually, Steve, the feedback I've gotten from that page is that it applies to any session. People I never met have written and thanked me for posting it, and said they sent the link to it around to their sessioners in all sorts of places around the globe. Maybe it just doesn't apply in your corner of the sessionverse.
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by Phantom Button
My humble feedback ;)
I think the only one's of us who cannot appreciate the following are those who live in a perfect world. I don't (live in a perfect world).
"So at the end of the day, whatever it was that got our local sessioners and onlookers to become more in tune with the spirit of sessions... I'm grateful for it."
October 31st 2010 by Phantom Button
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
That "one bodhran only" rule don't apply in our pub for a start. We have zero tolerance for such bloody abominations. Apart from that, lists of session rules are always faintly amusing. We should have a rule similar in sentiment to Jezza's on here ("be civil"): "if the buggers will actually let you in to play, behave yourself, respect their traditions and have fun." Obviously, this applies to everyone except bodhran players.
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
We have two or three bodhran players show up at the same time on occasion, and they usually take turns these days. Sometimes one will show up who's clueless and play regardless of what other bodhran players are doing. This usually results in a rhythmical cacophony and it prompts the polite and more musically adept player to give up. Sometimes I have to suggest to these players that they might want to take turns with the other bodhran players. This often has the desired effect, but for some it puts them off coming back again... but no one cries. It's funny how some people only value a session as being a place to come and bang twang pump blow or bow with no consideration to the other players or the music that's being made.
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Just tell 'em to sod off and learn an instrument. Accommodating bodhranistas is very bad news. They seldom know when not to play and they usually don't know a bloody jig from a bull's foot. And, once you've got one, they stick like sh*t to a blanket.
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I play the bodhran, Steve...
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Take the cross bar out and carry pints of Guinness in it to your friends.
I play it too. It's been on top of the spare room wardrobe for 13 years and I dust it once a week. It never moves. It sits there as permanent testament to my past mistakes.
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Some people can play, and they bring theirs to sessions.
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I like a good bodhran joke as well as anyone, and no instrument is immune to friendly slagging.
I've also seen a bodhran beat so thoroughly that it threatened to ruin the session all together, until someone stepped in and asked them to quiet down and sit out some sets. And it's true that the melody instruments are sufficient in carrying the tune *and* the rhythm. A drum isn't necessary.
But I get tired of the endless derision and dismissal of bodhrans here. A bodhran played with discretion by someone who knows the music and listens well is welcome in our local session. We're fortunate to have a few such players in our town.
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
From Wiki:
"Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies)[1][2] is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1989 which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2] In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all discussions—regardless of topic or scope—inevitably end up being about Hitler and the Nazis."
I hereby submit the modestly named Brown's Law:
"As a discussion on thesession.org grows longer, the probability of a derisive comment about a bodhran approaches 1."
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Lol @ "Brown's Law" I second this...
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
"Jaychoons is saying that you need to be Irish to play right and thats nonsense.A large percentage of Irish musicians dont get it either."
# Posted on October 31st 2010 by big_tab
Actually, that's not what I meant to infer, Tab, but that's my fault because I responded in an emotional (& admittedly, not very clear-headed) manner. The examples of great traditional players I chose DID all happen to be Irish, true enough. But there ARE a small but healthy percentage of us Yanks who "get it", too. Willie Kelly is one of my favorite American players, Jesse Smith a close second. But (and I'm guessing here) The Tradition was most likely very strong in those households when they were growing up. You're right when you say there's a great many Irish players who don't "get it" either; I look at a great many of the Fleadh competitors shown on the Comhaltas site and, to my ears anyway, DON'T hear great Irish music. So I think Mad Baloney has it right; yes, there is Snobbery in this music, but IMO it's a function of quality control, not jealousy!
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by jaychoons
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I think Jack's session guidelines make sense.
The problem is, any time you try to put "common courtesy" into writing, into a into a set of guidelines, it's going to be seen by some as preachy, intolerant, snobbish, etc.
About bodhran players, we have one who comes around sometimes who is a fine player and if anything is too deferential, plays too little. His playing adds to the session in my opinion.
We often dont' have any guitarists but when we have more than one they usually take turns.
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Richard D Cook
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I've always thought posting a big sign over your session announcing, "Don't be a douche" would do the job.
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Alas many posters are not just prejudiced against bodhrans, but many other things as well.
The are usually just prejudiced, bigoted people.
With no imagination hence the inability to adjust.
Blind unadulterated prejudice is much easier.
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
"Blind unadulterated prejudice is much easier" ... I don't know Bliss, for a start, how the devil do they manage to balance, with that huge chip on their shoulder .... way up there on their High Horse?
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Ptarmigan
Sigh
A session is whatever the people having it want it to be. When you encounter a session, it is not up to you to determine whether or not it is legitimate. All you can do is suss out whether or not it's a session you enjoy and can either listen to or possibly join in with.
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Sigh
"A session is whatever the people having it want it to be. When you encounter a session, it is not up to you to determine whether or not it is legitimate. All you can do is suss out whether or not it's a session you enjoy and can either listen to or possibly join in with."
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Random_humour
Sigh, indeed, Random. Enjoyed the link to the Plough & Stars immensely! I Will be printing it to give away as a handout for a couple of sessions I anchor with my mates (with discretion, of course...some sensitive types could easliy mistake being handed one of these as an affront to their undoubtedly incredible musiscianship!). I think handing out one of these to an obvious newcomer (with a welcoming handshake & a smile!) could go a long way towards dispelling the "Oh, they're just a bunch of folk Nazis" myth. Without this approach, the whole situation becomes very uncomfortable for the regulars AND the newbies. Nip it in the bud with a clear statement of what is expected, I say.
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by jaychoons
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I hope it helps, Jay.
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Each of us gets on the soap box when we post our comments &/or responses. It looks easy until you actually post something & receive the feedback. Traditional music forums are still a work in progress.
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Ben Steen
I seem to have misplaced my soap box.
Ben
# Posted on November 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I have a question which is on topic. It concerns how people regard their session.
# Posted on November 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
What's a bloody snobe anyway? That's my question.
# Posted on November 2nd 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Fair play. I'm sussing out how I may be allowed to ask my question. You might say it is a work in progress. You might say it is the question everyone is asking themselves. Ultimately, I am extremely humbled that something so simple should take such effort.
# Posted on November 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
& no bodhran jokes ...
The title of this thread, "Is there snobery (sic) in Irish music?" Since this question is being asked on thesession.org I think it only appropriate to address all concerns about how musicians regard sessions. In the question(s) below I am assuming this next quotation is most relevant,
"A session is whatever the people having it want it to be. When you encounter a session, it is not up to you to determine whether or not it is legitimate. All you can do is suss out whether or not it's a session you enjoy and can either listen to or possibly join in with."
I agree with the above.
Hypothetically ... if some musicians have a regular session at a pub & they want others to know they (from the viewpoint of the musicians) are not performing, is it up to anyone other than themselves to determine whether or not this is legitimate? Accepting of course some onlookers may consider the session (from the onlookers viewpoint) to be a public performance. Is it up to anyone other than those in the session to whine because the musicians do not consider it a public performance?
IMHO, no & no.
also, imho, it is not snobbery, arrogance, nor hubris that a session is whatever the people having it want it to be...
even if it is different from how I would have a session.
# Posted on November 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Drumroll please
& no bodhran jokes ....
it's not as good the 2nd time around, but that's how is was intended to begin.
Goodnight.
# Posted on November 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
I think there's a lot - a LOT - of overthinking on this. It's actually a very simple notion, and I've never seen anyone have any real difficulty with it in real life, unless they were well and truly p*ssed.
"What are you all doing here?"
"We're playing tunes. No, we're not doing requests, unless you have good taste and you remind me of a song that I'd forgotten that I really do want to sing, and that doesn't really happen a lot. Oh, pardon me, I like this tune, I'd like to sit down and play now, nice talking to you, enjoy yourself!"
The big misconception I get - and I have to explain this over and over - is "No, we're not a band". But that's to my friends who say "oh, I'd like to come and hear your band some time". Well, i haven't got one of those, but you can stop in on a Wednesday and I'll likely be playing. But the patrons of the pub seem to grasp the concept pretty well - maybe it's because we're never do any of the things that bands do - announcements from the stage, pluggings of CDs, "well be back next week, here's one more, safe home", looking at the audience, playing two sets of tunes without five minutes of chat between them, that sort of thing. Lots of subtle clues for the punters, and bless 'em, they get it.
So, no problem. Except here...
# Posted on November 2nd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Jon, here's hoping we can have this little bit of conversation. As you might know I sometimes take my time to type up comments & responses. Earlier tonight I was typing up one such comment to express my pleasure that we might actually resolve an old issue. As it turned out I never made that post due to circumstances beyond my control. I'll just say I feel the board might actually be going in a good direction. I certainly hope at least the door is beginning to open.
I keep telling myself the mustard is an experimental work in progress.
# Posted on November 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Is there Snobery in Irish music?
Let's hope. Might happen. Anyway, there's my take on the matter, for what it's worth: of course it's up to the musicians, always has been. Never been a question, except in this room.
# Posted on November 2nd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky