Hello Everyone,
I just bought a "practice" goose set of highland pipes. Their highland pipes only with no drones, just a bag, chanter and blow pipe. My question is what should I tune them to, and how would I go about tuning them? I know from Uilleann pipes you have to squeeze or close the reed or make the reed wider to sharpen and flaten them, is the same so for highland pipes? Also, I don't even know what notes or what key to tune to, or even what the notes are on the chanter. I am quite embarresed as to my ignorance. Any help would be much apreciative!
Hi Harper Lad.
This question is more complicated than it appears at first site.
I think what you have is a goose with a practice chanter.
The practice Chanter has a narrow cylindrical bore and plays an octave below the full sized conical bore Pipe Chanter.
These usually come with a plastic double reed.
The first thing you need to do is to get the A octaves in tune.
The six finger and thumb hole closed plays Low A.
x= closed o= open
Reed end xxxxxxo Low A
Thumb hole x
And the following fingering plays High A
ooxxxxo High A
o
To get these in tune you must move the reed further in or out of the chanter.
If the high A is Flat of the Low A then the reed must be pushed further in, if sharp pulled out. Keep moving it a little at a time until you get the octaves in tune.
Unfortunately Practice Chanters are nearly all ways not in tune with themselves. Once you've tuned the A octaves what you get for the other notes might not be correct, and the only thing you can do is to make sharp holes flatter using tape.
To correct flat holes you need to remove wood and I wouldn't recommend that at your stage of the game.
It's not essential for your practice chanter to be perfectly in tune to learn to play the grace notes cleanly, but anyone nearby will appreciate your attempt to get it as close as possible.
When it comes to the Full Chanter there are other variables to take into account, but I'd leave that till you get there.
Please excuse any misinformation on my part - I am not a bagpiper. As I understand it, the bagpipe scale has its own system of intonation, bearing no relation to the equal tempered scale. Furthermore, the 'A' of the bagpipes is in fact closer to B-flat at concert pitch. So, you can flush your electronic tuner down the lavatory, so to speak.
As PiedPiper says, getting the 'A's in tune with each other would be somewhere to start from. But as for the notes in between, it seems to me that, until you become accustomed to the peculiar intonation of the bagpipes, it is very difficult to tell whether they are in tune or not.
David, this leads us once more into the murky waters of temperament and intonation!
I've just rlooked at Hemholz's "Sensations of Tone" in which he gives numerous tables of different temperaments in "cents" - a "cent" being 1/1200 of an octave.
The tuning of the notes in an octave he gives for a set of Scottish bagpipes that he investigated is
0 197 341 495 703 853 1009 1200
The corresponding "just" temperament is
0 204 408 498 702 906 1110 1200
The "equal" temperament of the modern piano is
0 200 400 500 700 800 1100 1200
You can see that the "major" 3rd of the bagpipes (341) is very flat on the major 3rd we're used to - it's closer to a minor 3rd in fact. The 6th note (853) of the bagpipe scale comes about halfway between the 906 of "just" temperament and the "800" of the modern piano. This clearly demonstrates that the Scottish bagpipes are a definite no-no for use in an irish session!
Helmhotz also mentioned that the bagpipes scale is very close to an Arabic/Persian scale.
Trevor
Thank you all very much! All this information helped me immensly, although Trevor I think you would be blackballed if you took a set of scottish bagpipes to an Irish session, you'd be out on your ear in no time! Thanks everyone!
These are all great posts on the highland 'pipes. The most important thing with a practice chanter is to practice fingering. It won't ever sound 'bagpipish', one it's too low and secondly there's no drones.
The drones cause the distinctive 'bagpipe' tuning, it's required because a constant drone sounds horrible with an out of tune scale. You can get away with tuning compromises on a piano or other 'impact' instrument because the sound doesn't last long enough. You may also compromise a single melody line instrument, because there's not an unchanging 'tonic' to compare the individual notes to.
Like I said previously, the practice chanter is to practice with not perform. Get used to the fingering and keep a sharp eye for a great deal on a full set (you could get one used for two-thirds the price of a new one!). A full set of the highland pipes require enormous strength. So practice as many songs as possible so that you can enjoy the work of learning a full set.
Bambooguy - the uillean pipes also need to be tuned to a non-equal-tempered scale, in order to be in tune with the drones. But the tuning used for them is Just intonation, whereas Trevor indicates that the bagpipe scale is different from a Just intoned scale.
However, Trevor, it strikes me that your comparison of the bagpipe scale with Just intoned and equal-tempered scales is an unfair one: the two latter scales are major scales, whislt the bagpipe scale (ignoring bottom 'G') is, roughly speaking, the mixolydian mode. So, based on the figures you have provided, it should look more like this:
Bagpipe: 0 197 341 495 703 853 1009 1200
Just: 0 204 408 498 702 906 996 1200
Equal: 0 200 400 500 700 900 1000 1200
So, the 'F#' of the bagipies is almost a quarter tone flat on equal temperament, whilst the 'C#' is considerably more than a quarter tone flat. It#s a wonder bagpipes don't sound stranger than they do.
David, thanks for that correction. Helmholtz was obviously comparing the basic major scale across the various temperaments and scales (there are loads of 'em!), and I didn't know the bagpipe scale was based on the mixolydian mode.
Btw, do you know if you can get bagipies in a M&S delicatessen?
I find thinking in cents a bit difficult I prefer to use ratios, which in the case of Highland Pipes are simple.
The tuning I use on my Highland Pipes is as follows.
G 7/8 harmonic 7th
A 1/1 Tonic
B 9/8 perfect major tone
C# 5/4 perfect major 3rd
D 4/3 perfect 4th
E 3/2 perfect 5th
F# 5/3 perfect major 6th
g 16/9 perfect major tone down from high A
a 2/1 octave tonic
The "traditional" pipe scale differs in having a sharp 4th (D) and a sharp upper 7th (g).
Adrian, I've read your page about bagpipe tuning. Thanks, a very enlightening exposition!
Helmholtz was a 19c German physicist, and evidently didn't know much about the Scottish bagpipes, since it appears he had only one sample to experiment with. This probably explains the very brief reference in his book on acoustics.
Trevor
Bagpipe Tuning
Bagpipe Tuning
Hello Everyone,
I just bought a "practice" goose set of highland pipes. Their highland pipes only with no drones, just a bag, chanter and blow pipe. My question is what should I tune them to, and how would I go about tuning them? I know from Uilleann pipes you have to squeeze or close the reed or make the reed wider to sharpen and flaten them, is the same so for highland pipes? Also, I don't even know what notes or what key to tune to, or even what the notes are on the chanter. I am quite embarresed as to my ignorance. Any help would be much apreciative!
# Posted on December 26th 2003 by Harper_Lad
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/acoustics/chromtune.html
This should help on the notes.
# Posted on December 27th 2003 by Sean Logan
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
Hi Harper Lad.
This question is more complicated than it appears at first site.
I think what you have is a goose with a practice chanter.
The practice Chanter has a narrow cylindrical bore and plays an octave below the full sized conical bore Pipe Chanter.
These usually come with a plastic double reed.
The first thing you need to do is to get the A octaves in tune.
The six finger and thumb hole closed plays Low A.
x= closed o= open
Reed end xxxxxxo Low A
Thumb hole x
And the following fingering plays High A
ooxxxxo High A
o
To get these in tune you must move the reed further in or out of the chanter.
If the high A is Flat of the Low A then the reed must be pushed further in, if sharp pulled out. Keep moving it a little at a time until you get the octaves in tune.
Unfortunately Practice Chanters are nearly all ways not in tune with themselves. Once you've tuned the A octaves what you get for the other notes might not be correct, and the only thing you can do is to make sharp holes flatter using tape.
To correct flat holes you need to remove wood and I wouldn't recommend that at your stage of the game.
It's not essential for your practice chanter to be perfectly in tune to learn to play the grace notes cleanly, but anyone nearby will appreciate your attempt to get it as close as possible.
When it comes to the Full Chanter there are other variables to take into account, but I'd leave that till you get there.
Good luck, hope this helps.
PP
# Posted on December 27th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
Please excuse any misinformation on my part - I am not a bagpiper. As I understand it, the bagpipe scale has its own system of intonation, bearing no relation to the equal tempered scale. Furthermore, the 'A' of the bagpipes is in fact closer to B-flat at concert pitch. So, you can flush your electronic tuner down the lavatory, so to speak.
As PiedPiper says, getting the 'A's in tune with each other would be somewhere to start from. But as for the notes in between, it seems to me that, until you become accustomed to the peculiar intonation of the bagpipes, it is very difficult to tell whether they are in tune or not.
# Posted on December 27th 2003 by ragaman
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
Or do they simply use 'just' intonation (based on natural arithmetic ratios), like the uillean pipes?
# Posted on December 27th 2003 by ragaman
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
David, this leads us once more into the murky waters of temperament and intonation!
I've just rlooked at Hemholz's "Sensations of Tone" in which he gives numerous tables of different temperaments in "cents" - a "cent" being 1/1200 of an octave.
The tuning of the notes in an octave he gives for a set of Scottish bagpipes that he investigated is
0 197 341 495 703 853 1009 1200
The corresponding "just" temperament is
0 204 408 498 702 906 1110 1200
The "equal" temperament of the modern piano is
0 200 400 500 700 800 1100 1200
You can see that the "major" 3rd of the bagpipes (341) is very flat on the major 3rd we're used to - it's closer to a minor 3rd in fact. The 6th note (853) of the bagpipe scale comes about halfway between the 906 of "just" temperament and the "800" of the modern piano. This clearly demonstrates that the Scottish bagpipes are a definite no-no for use in an irish session!
Helmhotz also mentioned that the bagpipes scale is very close to an Arabic/Persian scale.
Trevor
# Posted on December 27th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
Thank you all very much! All this information helped me immensly, although Trevor I think you would be blackballed if you took a set of scottish bagpipes to an Irish session, you'd be out on your ear in no time! Thanks everyone!
Johnathan
# Posted on December 27th 2003 by Harper_Lad
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
Johnathan, a slight ambiguity in your last post! I don't own or play the bagpipes
Trevor
# Posted on December 27th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
These are all great posts on the highland 'pipes. The most important thing with a practice chanter is to practice fingering. It won't ever sound 'bagpipish', one it's too low and secondly there's no drones.
The drones cause the distinctive 'bagpipe' tuning, it's required because a constant drone sounds horrible with an out of tune scale. You can get away with tuning compromises on a piano or other 'impact' instrument because the sound doesn't last long enough. You may also compromise a single melody line instrument, because there's not an unchanging 'tonic' to compare the individual notes to.
Like I said previously, the practice chanter is to practice with not perform. Get used to the fingering and keep a sharp eye for a great deal on a full set (you could get one used for two-thirds the price of a new one!). A full set of the highland pipes require enormous strength. So practice as many songs as possible so that you can enjoy the work of learning a full set.
Evan
# Posted on December 27th 2003 by bambooguy
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
Haha,Trevor I know I was just agreeing with you that if you took a set of Highland Pipes to an Irish session you'd be cast out on your ear!
J.
# Posted on December 27th 2003 by Harper_Lad
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
Bambooguy - the uillean pipes also need to be tuned to a non-equal-tempered scale, in order to be in tune with the drones. But the tuning used for them is Just intonation, whereas Trevor indicates that the bagpipe scale is different from a Just intoned scale.
However, Trevor, it strikes me that your comparison of the bagpipe scale with Just intoned and equal-tempered scales is an unfair one: the two latter scales are major scales, whislt the bagpipe scale (ignoring bottom 'G') is, roughly speaking, the mixolydian mode. So, based on the figures you have provided, it should look more like this:
Bagpipe: 0 197 341 495 703 853 1009 1200
Just: 0 204 408 498 702 906 996 1200
Equal: 0 200 400 500 700 900 1000 1200
So, the 'F#' of the bagipies is almost a quarter tone flat on equal temperament, whilst the 'C#' is considerably more than a quarter tone flat. It#s a wonder bagpipes don't sound stranger than they do.
# Posted on December 28th 2003 by ragaman
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
Bagipies?? I presume I meant bagpipes.
# Posted on December 28th 2003 by ragaman
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
David, thanks for that correction. Helmholtz was obviously comparing the basic major scale across the various temperaments and scales (there are loads of 'em!), and I didn't know the bagpipe scale was based on the mixolydian mode.
Btw, do you know if you can get bagipies in a M&S delicatessen?
Trevor
# Posted on December 28th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
Hi
Please red the page on my web-site for my two-penneth on bagpipe tuning:
http://members.rogers.com/piobaire/piperscorner.htm
Adrian
# Posted on December 28th 2003 by PiperAdrian
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
I find thinking in cents a bit difficult I prefer to use ratios, which in the case of Highland Pipes are simple.
The tuning I use on my Highland Pipes is as follows.
G 7/8 harmonic 7th
A 1/1 Tonic
B 9/8 perfect major tone
C# 5/4 perfect major 3rd
D 4/3 perfect 4th
E 3/2 perfect 5th
F# 5/3 perfect major 6th
g 16/9 perfect major tone down from high A
a 2/1 octave tonic
The "traditional" pipe scale differs in having a sharp 4th (D) and a sharp upper 7th (g).
TTFN
PP
# Posted on December 28th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Bagpipe Tuning
Adrian, I've read your page about bagpipe tuning. Thanks, a very enlightening exposition!
Helmholtz was a 19c German physicist, and evidently didn't know much about the Scottish bagpipes, since it appears he had only one sample to experiment with. This probably explains the very brief reference in his book on acoustics.
Trevor
# Posted on December 28th 2003 by lazyhound