I just caught the end of a related discussion last week which got me thinking about whether anyone has advice on how to transfer from recorder to whistle. Any good tips?
I have rarely come across the recorder played in a traditional setting and have wondered why this is, since the recorder has been around for a while. If the flute and whistle feature and are so similar in many ways, why not the recorder? It doesn't have the best press admittedly (I hold some primary school teachers responsible).
Can you recommend any good players to check out? Or good sites to find advice on twiddles? And what key whistle should I buy first?
Thanks, and sorry if this is repeating some things from elsewhere, but I have been meaning to post this for a while.
You should buy a whistle in D - a Generation is perfectly adequate and very reasonably-priced.
I guess the reason why recorder doesn't get played in traditional Irish music is because it never caught on in Ireland. I would imagine that the costs of producing a recorder compared to a whistle put together by a tinsmith in minutes is the main reason. That, and the fact that it generally sounds awful unless it's an extremely expensive example, or it's played by an extremely skilful musician.
I agree with the choice of whistle key - In ITM, you will find that "D" is the standard. It lets you play in "G" quite easily as well because there are 2 alternate fingerings you can use to get C natural. You can either 1/2 cover the top hole (not as tricky as it sounds) or just cover the A and B holes, leaving all the others open.
Not sure I agree about Generations mind. See the earlier post which I think was called "Tips for a beginning whistle player". Its about 7 pages back from this thread of yours.
Reagarding "good sites to find advice on twiddles?" - I can't give any sites for that specifically but there may be stuff on the Chiff and Fipple website (tosh and piffle). Its a darned good site for whistle players. I can also recommend the whistle tutor by Geraldine Cotter. There are others, but that's a good one for the money and readily available on Ebay.
Recorders are strange things (and I don't mean that in a bad way!). They have their place in early english music for sure. I toyed with one for a bit but found it a bit like chasing 2 rabbits at once. Strangely, this did'nt happen when I took up the Uilleann Pipes later. The fingering for these seemed much more familiar.
Sound advice on listening already given by those before me. Its always worth looking at some of the other whistle related stuff on UTube - there's lots of it to go at!
In particular there are several clips from Michael Eskin who contributes on here sometimes. try searching for "tradschool". Combine this with the sheet music on this website and your away.
To my ear, recorders don't have the right tone for this music. They're not chiffy or reedy enough. Years ago, a very good recorder player came to our session. She played one night, and then came back with a D penny whistle. She said the recorder just didn't sound right. It didn't take her long at all to make the switch to penny whistle.
I have rarely come across the recorder played in a traditional setting and have wondered why this is, since the recorder has been around for a while. If the flute and whistle feature and are so similar in many ways, why not the recorder?
Have you read no Irish history?
Because recorders are for poncy, powder-wigged toffs prancing around a harpsichord and the whistle is a proper instrument for expressing the alienation of immigrants, laborers, convicts, conscripts, and refugees.
If you don't know how you want the music to go with a recorder in your hand (which you presumably know how to play) why will picking up an instrument you don't know how to play help?
The differences between the two matter hardly at all. A recorder is better at the high notes and at hitting chromatic notes dead on. Most of the time in traditional music you don't need to do either. The more important issue is that recorders are generally better value for money due to economies of scale in qualiy control - many more of them are made.
Fingers fly faster across a whistle than a recorder. No thumb hole on a D whistle to complicate fingering. Whistles sound better in ITM.
Other useful sites include www.tradlessons.com and the whistling Jesuit, Ryan S Dun, who has his own idiosyncratic style. Start by learning the tunes - the twiddles will come of their own accord but it will take time. I can vouch for this from experience and I promise it will be the same for you. Play the same tune over and over again until it drives everyone crazy and the dog starts hiding your whistles. Buy lots of whistles to ovecome this problem.
Develop an obsession with practising that takes over your life. Don't use music notation. Embarrass yourself at sessions thinking you are playing quietly but realising too late that even a quiet whistle can be heard at certain points in the room. . Read the helpful stuff at www.chiffandfipple.com. Focus on rhythm and tempo from the start - helps to prevent bad habits developing by trying to play too fast, too soon. Listen to Mary Bergin but don't be disheartened - she's been playing for years.
The biggest difference between them is that one of them is traditionally used to play Irish music, and the other isn't. The difference in the sound the instruments make is the only thing that's relevant.
"Fingers fly faster across a whistle than a recorder."
No difference if you know how to play them. You obviously don't know how to play a recorder.
If the OP knows how to play the recorder already he'll do better sticking to it and learning a few extra tricks and stylistic idioms.
"No thumb hole on a D whistle to complicate fingering."
It doesn't complicate it. Octaving comes instinctively if you put in a reasonable amount of practice.
What doesn't seem to have sunk in with most Irish-whistle players is that the vast majority of competent recorder players can play the whistle as well (and often some other woodwinds). The distinction is not between whistle and recorder players, but between whistle players who can also play the recorder and those who can't. The OP is rather unusual in not having picked up much whistle along the way.
"Whistles sound better in ITM. "
People who can play their instrument well sound better in it. It's certainly true that not many recorder players are going to put in the effort to learn the idiom when confronted with such offensive bigoted hostility. You might as well say that whites sound better in ITM.
A Susato whistle sounds like a Susato recorder. It doesn't sound much like anything else. They have their uses, and I'd bet that most whistle players who actually get paid to play own a few of them.
The thing about Susato's is that they seem pretty well tuned in comparison to cheap end traditional type whistles. They just don't have that traditional sound quality to me. I still have yet to find an equal to my 25 year old Feadog ! I'm so lucky to have her !
Jack - why are you showing us a video of a guy miming the recorder? I mean, the recording he's playing with is nice and all, but he'll need to learn to get his breathing in synch with the tune and put his instrument somewhere near the mic if he wants to get away with that stuff.
I would be curious to know how they did that. Just about everybody in the band (and in most of the related clips) has invisible mikes (and clearly aren't miming since everybody's fingers are dead in sync). I assume some sort of wireless lapel mikes? I guess he can afford the state of the art, whatever it is.
Thanks for the tips and links! This should definitely get me started. It seems that the general consensus is that the recorder just doesn't have that authentic sound, even if that is hard to define. I haven't come across too many people in wigs on my travels around the early music scene, although plenty of folk in beards and jumpers.
I am not worried about putting in twiddles, since I have some idea of it from playing Scottish fiddle, and improvising ornamentation is a key skill in baroque music. I was thinking more about technique - aren't cuts played by flicking the third finger or something (should get hold of one of those tutors that has been recommended)? I can appreciate that rolls etc would take some practice and persistence. I am pretty competent on the recorder so getting around it quickly and crossing the octave wouldn't be a problem. But it may be better for my personal safety if I don't turn up for an Irish session with my recorder under my arm...!!!
Since I now live in England, I was interested in the comment about recorder being used for English traditional music, so perhaps this is something I should look into as a sideline.
Off to buy my first whistle this weekend - wish me luck!!
Jack - from his beathing, it's pretty clear that Carlos is not actually playing in that clip. When he's taking a big breath and his recorder keeps tootling away, that's pretty much a giveaway.
Guy might be a good player, I don't know, but his stage show is apparently a fake.
I think I’d sooner be a poncy, powder-wigged toff prancing around a harpsichord than an alienated immigrant, a labourer, a convict, a conscript or a refugee, thank you very much!
There’s no romance in being poor, unwashed and unwanted &/ or sentenced to a life of drudgery...
And anyway recorders sound better in consorts, wonderful in fact. (Penny) whistles sound great playing in unison in Trad Irish or jam hot in Township Jazz.
Jon, I think something must have gone wrong - out of sync - between your video display and your speakers. I have just watched that clip three times in succession, trying desperately to catch the man out. But his breathing is SO spot on with what he's playing, that it's blindingly obvious to me that he *is* actually playing on stage. You couldn't mime anything that accurately - it wouldn't be humanly possible.
Recorders are loud and piercing and have an overly clean tone that's at odds with the scratchy, breathy, twangy tone of diddley music (I mean all that in the nicest possible way). A bit like getting an opera singer to come and do the sean-nos. Horses for courses. I speak from experience. I hope he isn't reading this.
Someone earlier referred to my videos but gave the wrong user name to search for on YouTube. My user name for the tune videos on YouTube is "Tradlessons".
Recorder and whistle
Recorder and whistle
Hi all,
I just caught the end of a related discussion last week which got me thinking about whether anyone has advice on how to transfer from recorder to whistle. Any good tips?
I have rarely come across the recorder played in a traditional setting and have wondered why this is, since the recorder has been around for a while. If the flute and whistle feature and are so similar in many ways, why not the recorder? It doesn't have the best press admittedly (I hold some primary school teachers responsible).
Can you recommend any good players to check out? Or good sites to find advice on twiddles? And what key whistle should I buy first?
Thanks, and sorry if this is repeating some things from elsewhere, but I have been meaning to post this for a while.
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by charl_berry
Re: Recorder and whistle
You should buy a whistle in D - a Generation is perfectly adequate and very reasonably-priced.
I guess the reason why recorder doesn't get played in traditional Irish music is because it never caught on in Ireland. I would imagine that the costs of producing a recorder compared to a whistle put together by a tinsmith in minutes is the main reason. That, and the fact that it generally sounds awful unless it's an extremely expensive example, or it's played by an extremely skilful musician.
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Recorder and whistle
People to listen to and worship include:
Mary Bergin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdJYbOkbetQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_Zp2KLGnvk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4hos7ZkRl8&feature=related
Her two albums Feadoga Stain 1 & 2 are essential listening.
Joannie Madden: http://www.myspace.com/joaniemadden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9aIrs3ZsI&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeqWduZOkDw&feature=fvw
Seán Ryan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGjej35p3E0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3oD07G2kw4&feature=related
His two albums are 'Minstrel's Fancy' and 'Take the Air'. They're very easy to track down.
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Recorder and whistle
Why learn the whistle? Play the tunes on your recorder -- I doubt if anyone would object, and you might even start something.
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by gam
Re: Recorder and whistle
I agree with the choice of whistle key - In ITM, you will find that "D" is the standard. It lets you play in "G" quite easily as well because there are 2 alternate fingerings you can use to get C natural. You can either 1/2 cover the top hole (not as tricky as it sounds) or just cover the A and B holes, leaving all the others open.
Not sure I agree about Generations mind. See the earlier post which I think was called "Tips for a beginning whistle player". Its about 7 pages back from this thread of yours.
Reagarding "good sites to find advice on twiddles?" - I can't give any sites for that specifically but there may be stuff on the Chiff and Fipple website (tosh and piffle). Its a darned good site for whistle players. I can also recommend the whistle tutor by Geraldine Cotter. There are others, but that's a good one for the money and readily available on Ebay.
Recorders are strange things (and I don't mean that in a bad way!). They have their place in early english music for sure. I toyed with one for a bit but found it a bit like chasing 2 rabbits at once. Strangely, this did'nt happen when I took up the Uilleann Pipes later. The fingering for these seemed much more familiar.
Sound advice on listening already given by those before me. Its always worth looking at some of the other whistle related stuff on UTube - there's lots of it to go at!
In particular there are several clips from Michael Eskin who contributes on here sometimes. try searching for "tradschool". Combine this with the sheet music on this website and your away.
Good luck with the whistle - its a noble cause.
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by ormepipes
Re: Recorder and whistle
To my ear, recorders don't have the right tone for this music. They're not chiffy or reedy enough. Years ago, a very good recorder player came to our session. She played one night, and then came back with a D penny whistle. She said the recorder just didn't sound right. It didn't take her long at all to make the switch to penny whistle.
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Recorder and whistle
http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/
Just passing on the link to something I found useful
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by David50
Re: Recorder and whistle
I have rarely come across the recorder played in a traditional setting and have wondered why this is, since the recorder has been around for a while. If the flute and whistle feature and are so similar in many ways, why not the recorder?
Have you read no Irish history?
Because recorders are for poncy, powder-wigged toffs prancing around a harpsichord and the whistle is a proper instrument for expressing the alienation of immigrants, laborers, convicts, conscripts, and refugees.
Figger it out
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Recorder and whistle
"recorders are for poncy, powder-wigged toffs prancing around a harpsichord"
But so are flutes - or can be, at least.
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Recorder and whistle
Lucky you qualified that with 'can be'...............
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by Bredna
Re: Recorder and whistle
Better get the Vaseline ready...
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by gam
Re: Recorder and whistle
If you don't know how you want the music to go with a recorder in your hand (which you presumably know how to play) why will picking up an instrument you don't know how to play help?
The differences between the two matter hardly at all. A recorder is better at the high notes and at hitting chromatic notes dead on. Most of the time in traditional music you don't need to do either. The more important issue is that recorders are generally better value for money due to economies of scale in qualiy control - many more of them are made.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: Recorder and whistle
Fingers fly faster across a whistle than a recorder. No thumb hole on a D whistle to complicate fingering. Whistles sound better in ITM.
Other useful sites include www.tradlessons.com and the whistling Jesuit, Ryan S Dun, who has his own idiosyncratic style. Start by learning the tunes - the twiddles will come of their own accord but it will take time. I can vouch for this from experience and I promise it will be the same for you. Play the same tune over and over again until it drives everyone crazy and the dog starts hiding your whistles. Buy lots of whistles to ovecome this problem.
Develop an obsession with practising that takes over your life. Don't use music notation. Embarrass yourself at sessions thinking you are playing quietly but realising too late that even a quiet whistle can be heard at certain points in the room. . Read the helpful stuff at www.chiffandfipple.com. Focus on rhythm and tempo from the start - helps to prevent bad habits developing by trying to play too fast, too soon. Listen to Mary Bergin but don't be disheartened - she's been playing for years.
Just my experience.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by zepherin
Re: Recorder and whistle
The biggest difference between them is that one of them is traditionally used to play Irish music, and the other isn't. The difference in the sound the instruments make is the only thing that's relevant.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Recorder and whistle
x-post
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Recorder and whistle
"Fingers fly faster across a whistle than a recorder."
No difference if you know how to play them. You obviously don't know how to play a recorder.
If the OP knows how to play the recorder already he'll do better sticking to it and learning a few extra tricks and stylistic idioms.
"No thumb hole on a D whistle to complicate fingering."
It doesn't complicate it. Octaving comes instinctively if you put in a reasonable amount of practice.
What doesn't seem to have sunk in with most Irish-whistle players is that the vast majority of competent recorder players can play the whistle as well (and often some other woodwinds). The distinction is not between whistle and recorder players, but between whistle players who can also play the recorder and those who can't. The OP is rather unusual in not having picked up much whistle along the way.
"Whistles sound better in ITM. "
People who can play their instrument well sound better in it. It's certainly true that not many recorder players are going to put in the effort to learn the idiom when confronted with such offensive bigoted hostility. You might as well say that whites sound better in ITM.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: Recorder and whistle
At least whistle players can cheat - if you want to sound like you can play the recorder, buy a Susato.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by ormepipes
Re: Recorder and whistle
A Susato whistle sounds like a Susato recorder. It doesn't sound much like anything else. They have their uses, and I'd bet that most whistle players who actually get paid to play own a few of them.
They certainly don't sound like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKKU4PyJ9XY
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: Recorder and whistle
no offence to any recorder players, but at school I was forced to learn the recorder and hated it, so thats what it will always remind me of
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by banjo'd
Re: Recorder and whistle
Hi Jack,
Your right ! - great clip!
The thing about Susato's is that they seem pretty well tuned in comparison to cheap end traditional type whistles. They just don't have that traditional sound quality to me. I still have yet to find an equal to my 25 year old Feadog ! I'm so lucky to have her !
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by ormepipes
Re: Recorder and whistle
I'm with you there, seamyderry. Although I do still play the recorder for English trad from time to time.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by zepherin
Re: Recorder and whistle
"Bigoted offensive hostility"? That's quite a charge. I hope the rest of the day lightens up for you.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by zepherin
Re: Recorder and whistle
Jack - why are you showing us a video of a guy miming the recorder? I mean, the recording he's playing with is nice and all, but he'll need to learn to get his breathing in synch with the tune and put his instrument somewhere near the mic if he wants to get away with that stuff.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Recorder and whistle
I would be curious to know how they did that. Just about everybody in the band (and in most of the related clips) has invisible mikes (and clearly aren't miming since everybody's fingers are dead in sync). I assume some sort of wireless lapel mikes? I guess he can afford the state of the art, whatever it is.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: Recorder and whistle
Hi all,
Thanks for the tips and links! This should definitely get me started. It seems that the general consensus is that the recorder just doesn't have that authentic sound, even if that is hard to define. I haven't come across too many people in wigs on my travels around the early music scene, although plenty of folk in beards and jumpers.
I am not worried about putting in twiddles, since I have some idea of it from playing Scottish fiddle, and improvising ornamentation is a key skill in baroque music. I was thinking more about technique - aren't cuts played by flicking the third finger or something (should get hold of one of those tutors that has been recommended)? I can appreciate that rolls etc would take some practice and persistence. I am pretty competent on the recorder so getting around it quickly and crossing the octave wouldn't be a problem. But it may be better for my personal safety if I don't turn up for an Irish session with my recorder under my arm...!!!
Since I now live in England, I was interested in the comment about recorder being used for English traditional music, so perhaps this is something I should look into as a sideline.
Off to buy my first whistle this weekend - wish me luck!!
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by charl_berry
Re: Recorder and whistle
Jack - from his beathing, it's pretty clear that Carlos is not actually playing in that clip. When he's taking a big breath and his recorder keeps tootling away, that's pretty much a giveaway.
Guy might be a good player, I don't know, but his stage show is apparently a fake.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Recorder and whistle
I think I’d sooner be a poncy, powder-wigged toff prancing around a harpsichord than an alienated immigrant, a labourer, a convict, a conscript or a refugee, thank you very much!
There’s no romance in being poor, unwashed and unwanted &/ or sentenced to a life of drudgery...
And anyway recorders sound better in consorts, wonderful in fact. (Penny) whistles sound great playing in unison in Trad Irish or jam hot in Township Jazz.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Recorder and whistle
Jon, I think something must have gone wrong - out of sync - between your video display and your speakers. I have just watched that clip three times in succession, trying desperately to catch the man out. But his breathing is SO spot on with what he's playing, that it's blindingly obvious to me that he *is* actually playing on stage. You couldn't mime anything that accurately - it wouldn't be humanly possible.
Lovely clip, too.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Recorder and whistle
Recorders are loud and piercing and have an overly clean tone that's at odds with the scratchy, breathy, twangy tone of diddley music (I mean all that in the nicest possible way). A bit like getting an opera singer to come and do the sean-nos. Horses for courses. I speak from experience. I hope he isn't reading this.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Recorder and whistle
You know a horse who sings opera, Steve?
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Recorder and whistle
Neigh.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Recorder and whistle
Someone earlier referred to my videos but gave the wrong user name to search for on YouTube. My user name for the tune videos on YouTube is "Tradlessons".
# Posted on November 1st 2010 by Michael Eskin