playing with a metronome is the best way to improve command of the language of tempo and feel.
quote john McGann flatpicking guitar essentials.
he says you can play directly on the beat, or behind the beat using a click, he suggests 120 for a crotchet.
he then says play a down stroke on an open string with each click, then try playing slightly behind the beat.
he goes on. I have found practising with the metronome clicking two beats per measure is a great technique.
what are the opinions of forum members?
I thought it worth finding out the source of the OP. So, I searched John McGann & found the bit down below. I have no prior knowledge of his music or instruction methods. Seems he is not suggesting a reliance on the metronome, but simply trying out different approaches for woodshedding with an emphasis on tempo & rhythm control;
"Putting on the metronome and working slowly on tunes, going for TONE and forgetting about speed. Click on beats 2 and 4 (like a mandolin). Pick a nice easy tempo (yeah, I know, it's more fun to push the envelope and play fast. Bear with me)- play the tune. Next time, try pulling slightly behind the beat. Next time, try pushing the beat (playing a little ahead of it).
It's the feeling of pushing the beat that you want- NOT RUSHING, but having your notes up there like a hood ornament, while the metronome beat is the driver's seat...in other words, staying locked in with the pulse, but relatively ahead of it (Being a little behind is great for swing and jazz playing; it's also where a lot of less-that stellar bluegrass bass players put the beat!)
This feel can Make the Music Happen. Give it a try once you are comfortable just playing along with the metronome with the beat square in the middle (it's not easy, the first time I tried it I thought the thing was messed up, even though it was a quartz electric!)."
John McGann is a very fine player and teacher in the Boston area and has been for many years. He's a professor at Berklee and frequently plays with Joe Derrane and Seamus Connolly.
yes exactly, he is a very good player ,because he knows how to use a metronome, he suggests playing behind the beat as well as on the beat, but unfortunately some of the people on this forum, are not prepared to listen to advice from a someone like John McGann.
in my post I quoted him: he says you can play directly on the beat, or behind the beat using a click,
Llig and Bogman are two examples of knee jerk anti metronomism.
Dick, I did find your posting of the quote a bit disjointed. Perhaps if you focus on the source of the information, John McGann, & less on your detractors it may improve communication, IMHO.
It's a taste thing, I think, Will. There's a fair bit of 'catching' of other strings, and uncoordination between left hand and pick that just isn't my bag.
Well we're hearing it differently, then. To me, McGann's playing is clean, yes, and tricky. But the other clip has pulse and real feel, and nyah, so much so that I must be missing the glitches you hear.
Give me nyah over clean any day. And I suspect the other mando player would sound better to your ears on McGann's expensive mandolin.
Will be interesting to see if others chime in on this comparison.
FWIW, I find that flat picking to a metronome does help some of my students. Mostly the ones who can't seem to hear their own inner pulse. But most of them get it in about 30 seconds, and then they don't need the metronome anymore. I can see some small use for it in helping some people hear the beat and to learn to listen both to their own beat and another outside beat (in preparation for playing in time with another musician).
But I would never use a metronome to teach rhythmic "feel" or pulse. That comes from within, not some external source. the best way to get in touch with your inner pulse is to dance, or at least hop around in time, or sing, and breathe in time to the music. All of these methods are both more natural and easier to grasp and integrate than the click of a metronome.
I love the clip of Isaac Stern in China back in the 1970s. He's on stage with a young violin prodigy (who later came to the US and played with a major orchestra). She plays a piece for Stern (in front of an audience of 3,000 people). He stops her and demonstrates how wooden her rhythm and feel is. What remedy does he recommend? A metronome? No. He asks her to sing a few phrases of the piece. She's terrified--after all, she's a violinist, not a singer. But Stern encourages her, and she gives it a try. Her singing is a bit timid, but beautiful, full of life and pulse. Stern is jubilant. He then asks her to play just as she sang. "Sing it here, he says, tapping his head, "and play it on your violin." She does, and the piece comes alive.
I have recently gone back and read this: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/25288
The context is that although when playing on my own I can keep a steady tempo when playing with one or two other beginners we accelerate. My hunch - comments please - is that it is easier to hear when someone starts a note slightly before I do than when I am ahead and there is maybe an instinct up 'keep up'. So if we are not used to each others rhythm (or more likely are just plain ragged) and two or more people react the same way there would be a feedback loop that resuted in acceleration.
Is that right and what to do about it ? Practicing playing slightly behind the beat with a recording (that Molloy bloke will just not slow down ! ) ? One more experienced guy has said that he tryng to stick with the beat but not listen too hard to the individual notes we are playing.
(off for the weekend in a couple of hours, if this discussion vanishes I will ask the question as a new discussion)
I think the reason that happens, David, is that beginners tend to rush on certain phrases. Each beginner may well rush on different phrases of the tune. Each other player then tries to catch up on the bits that the others are rushing, and that leads to overall acceleration. To break that cycle, it may well be good to practice with a metronome as Will suggests using it, for a short while, just to open your eyes to where you are playing it wrong. But you've got to, pretty quickly, internalise the pulse - to feel the pulse of the music inside you. then you can play rock steady, and still get the flow and drive a dnpulse and lift and whatever other adjective you want in your playing.
I'd like it if others commented on those two clips, Will. I think they're a very interesting juxtaposition. And normally, I'd be with you 100% - nyah, and even dirt, over clean but sterile any day. I'm just saying that, in this case, the second clip didn't work for me. The glitches messed it up for me, and I couldn't appreciate the tune.
Thanks eb. I thought I had been doing that though What a metronome makes me aware of is uneveness of notes within the beat (say half a bar of a jig) or rushing 'easy' runs; I thought I was getting grip on that.. But yes, maybe the different dynamic of trying to 'make music' with other people causes rushing at the level of phrases. (I only just noticed that you are now merged as well as blended)
David_h, I developed a good rhythm when I was made to sit in gigs with a bodhran player who was messing the rhythm completely (alternately accelerating and lagging behind) and was charged with responsibility to keep him on the beat - for four long years. That makes you learn to keep the rhythm, as well as to play really loud.
But less tongue-in-cheekly:
Accelerating takes place when your playing is on the level of avoiding immediate disaster of technical fumble. Once you can unglue you eyes and mind from your fingers/bow, you can set your mind to a more calm state, when you can start to see the melody in a broader context, and also have the luxury of reflecting on various aspects of your playing while doing it. Try concentrating in the beginning of the tune on the tempo (i.e. playing it in your head before you start it on your instrument, and storing it in the back of your head, checking it up every now and then).
For quite a time, I had this tendency to accelerate when playing (I still *sometimes* do in those rare moments when I have to concentrate too much on technically challenging phrases that I have not trained well enough). I tried the metronome, but that never worked for me well - while keeping the tempo steady, it was just another technical aspect that took my mind off the actual feel of the music. And when it was off, I still accelerated. And then I started working on internalisation, trying out various methods.
Two things worked for me the best:
1. Playing a lot at Sunday afternoon tempos with distinctive pulsation and phrasing (like on Micheal O'Raghallaigh's "The Nervous Man")
2 Visualising dancers while playing (putting the rhythm in context).
It took me two or three weeks at most to stop accelerating - and it just worked for fast playing too. Whenever I'm playing with someone who tends to accelerate and I notice I'm beginning to follow him, I'm concentrating on the pulse and I'm picturing a dancer following the music - and then nothing can shake my rhythm.
I don't know if a metronome can help or not; all I can say is that in my experience you can do without it, and do fine indeed.
Thanks for that EastPole. It could be that when I record myself to check if I am speeding up I pay attention to tempo but when I play a tune working on something else the tempo variation creeps back. So maybe its not only a 'playing with other people' thing.
Dancing, hmm, some things that people said in Will's contra dance band thread were very tempting.
Meant to say that "Accelerating takes place when your playing is on the level of avoiding immediate disaster of technical fumble" and what followed are very appropriate to where I am at.
There was a interesting quote from Miles Davis in that other thread where he deliberately hired musicians for his band where the percussion players pushed ahead of the beat and the melody players played behind. I'm assuming this is from sometime around the 80s. The dramatic tension in his music from that time was immense. If you listen hard to it, really concentrate on what's going on (not easy, it's very dense), you just can't help your stomach muscles from tightening up. It's very powerful.
But why the heck would you want to create that sort of feeling with diddley music? A lot of players do do it of course, but only the really crap ones. I think that one of the real skills in playing diddley music well is to try to strip it of as much tension as you can. Interestingly, though, the way the music is made up is a great facilitator for this.
There was a good quote on another thread that I liked: "a classical musician who had fallen in love with Irish music described it as having its own built-in percussion." Because the melody and rhythm are so inextricably linked, because they are one in the same, it makes it impossible to put one ahead and the other behind.
What I think is a bit daft about the concept of playing ahead or behind the beat in diddley music is that it's the player/players who define where the beat or pulse is. There's this kind of daft backwards thinking to ahead or behind the beat. You could have two players where one is ahead of the other and you could say the beat is in between them. But what if both players think they are ahead of the beat, just one slightly more so? It doesn't make sense. And this is where the metronome doesn't make sense. It takes away the musicians' responsibility. It takes away the pulse. Music to a metronome has no pulse. It has no heart. It is dead music.
There's another interesting quote from Miles Davis from the 80s - he's being interviewed by this really tedious German bloke and he's so bored he's doodling with different coloured pens on a piece of paper. The doodling is more interesting than the interview and the interviewer starts to notice this. The doodling consists of layers of interweaving wavy lines. The interviewer asks Miles what happens when one of the lines goes awry. Miles answers that there's no such thing as awry, the lines go where they want and the other lines go with it.
So playing with a metronome is like drawing on graph paper.
But can a metronome ever be useful? Yes, I believe it can. If you're so bad and you don't even realise you are so awful, it can/should help you realise this. Though playing with it won't help, of course, as I said before (re the original post).
Stabilisers! LOL Ah do I have to remind you that Kevin Burke still uses a metronome. Both for practice at home and albums. Perhaps there is a reason for that that you haven't figured out yet....
"keeping a steady beat--that's what your foot is for. of course, that takes practice too"
It's a good job that the hundred players in a symphony orchestra don't tap their feet. The Albert Hall would be no more. A lot of good diddley players don't tap their feet (and a lot of others do, I know). It's good to experiment with not doing it once in a while to see how the old internal sense of rhythm is coming along.
Not for nothing, but Miles Davis also thought white guys played differently than black guys, too, so he would hire some white guys for his band literally for the contrast. I say that because Miles was a great improvisor, but he was also sort of a nut.
Recording studios generally make you play with a click track. That's basically a metronome in your headphones. They do that so that they can isolate each instrument (you do that so you can get the mix you want). So saying somone uses a metronome on their records is not a good testimony because they probably don't have a choice if they are recording for a big record company.
all that said, some people like metronomes, some don't. Its a tool, but ultimately you have to be able to play with a good time feel. You can miss the notes and the other musicians will notice, but you blow the rhythm and even the drunks at the bar can tell
In this case, I don't think the analogy of classical orchestras works, Steve. It seems to me that, when you listen carefully to what's actually going on, rhythm and tempo in classical music is actually *more* changeable and less steady than in trad. A lot more. Rhythm in trad is fluid in a different way and the beat tends to be much steadier.
Well, that depends on the piece. I've seen Beethoven's Eighth symphony performed a good few times - the one with the second movement which is a p*ss-take on Maalzel's newly-invented metronome - and no-one tapped their feet! Even Beethoven wasn't keen. Do we think that trumps even Kevin Burke? Heheh.
Actually, I'm curious if they record him with a click track and isolate all the instruments like they do a pop artist or if they let him play with his mates and record it "live" like they did in the old days. Do you figure on visiting with him?
I've worked for bandleaders that did an exercise in rehearsal that was meant to get us all thinking and counting time together. What you did was clap on the down beat of the first measure, then count silently to yourself for 4 bars, then clap on the downbeat of the 5th bar. Then we'd count 8 then 16 then 32 bars. One time we did 64 bars and all came back in absolutely together. They was 14 of us with the horn section. so that was pretty tight.
I also heard that Earl Scrugg's band would start playing a tune and one half of the group would walk around the barn to the left, the others started around to the right. As they came back together on the other side of the barn, they would be perfectly together
To me, its this kind of time keeping in an ensamble that's important
I love the Eighth, Steve. I was, of course, generalising. You take the vast majority of classical music - even properly Classical, as opposed to Baroque, Romantic or what have you, and the tempo, and rhythm in most performances, amateur or professional, are fluid to say the least. I know this one may be extreme, but try Solti conducting the Pastoral Symphony.
[Oh, and before you ask, I put Beethoven firmly in the Classical pot, rather than Romantic]
Good point ethical. So Kevin could still use it because he is obliged to as a result of being a professional musician. Id agree with that to an extent; if you want to be, or play up to the level of, a pro, then maybe you need to learn to play with a metronome.
But IMO its a fun tool that can be very interesting to work with for anyone. Though the particular sound is crucial; I prefer a wooden or bass drum sound
cheers prof. But do chat with him about it then it wont only be me saying it . Ive had several discussions on this matter and others with Kevin Im merely relaying the information. What people chose to do with it, disregard, disbelieve, disdain or consider carefully, is up to them.
Recording studios don't "make" anybody do anything any more than restaurants make customers eat their vegetables. If you're doing film scoring, then beats per minute is a crucial factor.
Playing with a metronome develops your internal clock so you can fine tune aspects of your playing if that matters to you. You can keep a steady tempo in a tune but rush triplets within a bar or something. The metronome can give you one more tool to improve your ability to play with people. Playing with people has it's own skill set, and time and feel are 2 very different things. You can't play ahead or behind the beat if you don't know where the beat is. When i hear bad playing, it's usually not poor note choices...the tunes are the tunes. It's usually lousy feel and bad time. You can't teach feel but you can improve time.
“I also heard that Earl Scrugg's band would start playing a tune and one half of the group would walk around the barn to the left, the others started around to the right.”
I’ve heard that story told about Doyle Lawson and his band, only it was for a cappella singing. Maybe they all did it. Or maybe it's just a good story.
Steve, there's a difference between a recording studio where you are paying them, and a record company that is paying you to make a record. If you get picked up by Capitol Records, get ready to play with a click track, that's all I'm saying
It is true that if you want to be a professional, you better be able to play with a metronome.
I do agree that you can't play ahead of or behind the beat without any sense of time. And like I said, a metronome is a tool.
Personally, I think the best way is to develop a good time feel is to play with musicians that have a good time feel.
Sorry, I hit send prematurely there. I meant you can just play it live when you're recording and sod the metronome. I can well see that that isn't always possible. When we made my CD I had a click track in my ear for just one track out of fourteen, and it shows. I sound like a bloody automaton (comments about the other tracks will be ungratefully received! )
My view is that a metronome can tell you that you need to work on your internal rhythm but that you can't use it to fix anything. A stethoscope can tell you that you have a heart murmur but the stethoscope can do bugger all about it.
that's how I see it, too. And I also do agree that I hate to play with a click track. I use a metronome from time to time still, but its when I'm trying to fix a problem. But I did spend time with one when I was young
If you have that Irvine-Brady CD listen to the last tune on the last track, Little Stack of Wheat. It's sublimely played on that track, but listen again. It ends slightly faster than it begins. Anyone complaining?
The thing is that if you're trying to micro-manage your internal rhythm to the extent of slavishly matching it to a metronome you're ceasing to be a human being playing music and, worse, you're training yourself to be that way. What makes live music so great is the, er, sheer human inexactitude of it all. That isn't to say that there are no people who need work doing on their rhythm. But they generally stick out like a sore thumb. What worked best for me, by a country mile, was playing tunes with blokes who had a lot of experience and musical personality and who had developed a rock-steady and confident sense of both rhythm and tempo, and my best tool was my pair of ears.
... about playing a bit ahead of the beat via cut & paste;
"...in other words, staying locked in with the pulse, but relatively ahead of it (Being a little behind is great for swing and jazz playing; it's also where a lot of less-that-stellar bluegrass bass players put the beat!)" http://www.johnmcgann.com/contest.html
Playing “on the Front of the Beat”
"Lilt is heard in the uneven subdivision of the pulse and the variance of stress. It is also heard in another way. If you listen carefully, you will notice that traditional Irish musicians tend to play “on the front of the beat.” That is, they tend to place on-pulse notes a very slight bit early. This lends the music a feeling of “leaning forward,” of forward motion and momentum. Some Irish musicians speak of a feeling of “lift” on the downbeat.
By contrast, blues musicians, to give one example, often do the opposite. They tend to play on the back of the beat, placing on-pulse notes a very slight bit late. This creates a “laid-back” feeling. http://www.greylarsen.com/store/samples/essguide_chap1-2.pdf
Of course any decent musician should be able to keep a steady beat, and so be able to play with a metronome. But extrapolating from that that you *must* play/practice with a metronome to become a decent or professional musician is just an abuse of logic (or an embrace of illogic).
I played for years in a bluegrass band. The bass player had the best sense of rhythm I've ever heard. He did not use a metronome. But he *demanded* good rhythm and timing from the rest of us. His holy grail was tight rhythm for the whole band. After weeks of playing in the band, my rhythm was rock solid. After six years in the band, it was totally ingrained.
Some years later, someone questioned my rhythm. I suspected it was their rhythm that was off. So I pulled up an online metronome and played along--no problems. Turns out my rhythm was still rock solid. But I didn't *need* a metronome to get me there.
The bass player taught rhythm by example. But he also told us to focus on our internal pulse, and to feel the weight, the "heaviness," of each downbeat (even if we weren't playing each downbeat). That sense of the downbeats being physically heavy is crucial, I think, if you want to be able to shift your timing around them but still stay right with the beat.
Works for me. I'm a professional musician. No metronome needed, now nor earlier in my musical development.
Prof. Prlwytzkofsky, I'd love to hear what Kevin Burke has to say about metronomes. Over the course of a number of lessons and workshops and personal correspondence I've had with him, starting some 25 years ago and continuing till fairly recently, he's never once mentioned a metronome. (It's possible he thought my rhythm wasn't an issue and so I didn't need one.)
So if you do get the chance, it'd be great to hear his thoughts on developing pulse and a solid rhythm. And his personal use (or not) of the machine.
I said that you better be able to play with one if you are a professional, but what I mean is that you better be able to handle that playing situation if somebody puts you in that position. I never got famous, but when I was paying rent with my guitar I had to be able to play whatever came my way. So I never had a situation where I made my living from one kind of playing. That's where I'm comming from. The work ethic sort of thing. The more you can do, the less burgers you have to flip. But I don't think metronomes are necessary, and I agree with alot of what steve says
Nate, I was thinking not of anything you posted, but of this from spellbreaker: "if you want to be, or play up to the level of, a pro, then maybe you need to learn to play with a metronome."
In this music, many of the pros I know did not use a metronome to develop their impeccable rhythm and timing. Can they play along to a click track? Of course. Anyone with a solid sense of rhythm and the ability to listen to another musician and play at the same time can do that.
I have to point out that I first used a metronome about 5 yrs ago while learning to play a drumkit, the first 30yrs I never played with a metronome ,ever.
Where it is relevant is that its a very interesting and sometimes challenging thing to do . Of course in drumming you are 'juggling' your Right/left patterns with the various drums and cymbal's available, so to some extent much busier than other instruments The requirement to be rhythmically spot on between snare, bass and highhat while also extemporising around the kit means that A click track is very useful as reference.
So with a click track IMO you are removing leeway in your playing that can develop as a learner and obviously, as even experts use them, there must be some value in it for accomplished and experienced musicians.
Personally I prefer playing with a good Bodhran player who knows the tune. or for that matter any good tight player . There is a great 'groove' to be part of. But for helping develop technical skills I feel tools like the Gnome can be very valuable.
We can agree to differ..... Express our opinions without attacking others . cheers.
I didn't feel under any scrutiny, but I did actually make a pretty bold statement and wanted to clarify what I meant. I thought I sounded like a metronome nazi, which is not anything close to how I actually feel about it. But thanks, Will, for being considerate
Clearly KB didn't use a click track on If the Cap Fits (check the start and end of the 19-reel or however many it is marathon). And thank goodness he didn't.
If he used one in later recordings, that might explain why (to my ear) they tend to sound careful and stilted in comparison with the exuberance of that great record.
I have truly enjoyed this month's episode of "topics we've beaten the living sh!t out of 1000 times before."
Metronomes and feel? If you want to improve your sense of feel, then invest in a few sets of lacy silk underwear. When you feel sexy, you PLAY sexy. No metronome can make do that...
Define recording. Someone once showed me an epic collection of Burns poetry, the stuff that didn't make it to high school English textbooks. It's like reading Scots porn.
Which leads to the next question..... Is reading about sex sufficient for understanding it, or do you need to see it and do it?
Max: "One reason for metronome practice is to sensitize ourselves to many gradations of tempo and be able to play them."
Maybe, but at what point does one become sensitized enough to forgo the metronome?
I come from a backround of solo classical and fingerstyle steel string guitar, where I never used a metronome, and I rarely played with other musicians. When I became interested in trad I started playing Celtic backup and after listening to recordings of myself I quickly discovered that I was not so good rhythmically. I did a lot of practicing with a metronome and it helped quite a bit. However, it was taking up percussion that really brought out my feel for rhythm. I bought a bodhran (don't worry, not to take to sessions) simply so that I could develop better rhythm in my own movements. It made me a better player on evey other instrument.
I use a metronome now not so much to practice playing in 'perfect time'', but more for getting newly learned tunes up to typical session speeds.
Spellbreaker, the max kimmel page didn't seem to be concerned with a musician's wishes. Would you agree continuous use of the metronome, over time, might prevent a musician from playing a steady tempo without said device?
Magnetite, I used a bodhran, also, early on in my quest to play The Music well. Never play it in public, but I learned a lot from thumping around.
Regarding metronomes, like a lot of people, I see a metronome as a practical tool to use from time to time to hone my skills. I have used it to check my rhythm on tunes that have been giving me problems. I have also used it in strumming drills to try to improve my accompaniment skills, and speed up and even up my strumming. Not something that is helpful if used too much, but a handy aid when used in moderation.
But to others a metronome seems to symbolize a point that must be hammered home to 'win' an argument on an internet chat site.
<<Spellbreaker, the max kimmel page didn't seem to be concerned with a musician's wishes. Would you agree continuous use of the metronome, over time, might prevent a musician from playing a steady tempo without said device? >>
No
There are 2 facets; keeping a steady rhythm. and keeping that rhythm at a steady pace.
Finding and keeping a rhythm is a physical thing.
it does not require thought, once the body finds a groove , as long as the mind does not inhibit the body with thinking the body automatically slips into rhythm, though that rhythm may speed up , or slow down. .....As long as the movements made are rhythmical in nature , not jerky disconnected, but smooth and relaxed . Which is why repetition and good form is so important in developing a good rhythm, so it all happens automatically, rhythmically.
The key to finding this is precise bouncy rhythm. A gnome can be one tool too help in finding this bounce. In a way, with some instruments, its literally a bounce rapid percussive flicks , like the Right hand of a banjo, or the fingers of a piper, the sticks of a drummer, the bounce of the bow.
So it is conceivable that at a certain point anyone is capable of playing without a metronome, since there are other ways to keep a steady *rhythm*. By the way I usually make a distinction between tempo & rhythm. By "keeping rhythm at a steady pace" I think you are using the term pace in the same way I use the term tempo. I'm not sure how you are using steady rhythm, unless you mean all notes are of equal value.
So many posts about the merits of different philosophies on how to play.
What works for different people is, well, different. We all have different needs beacuase we are all better at some aspects than others.
I think it quite wrong to decide that just because one individual reads music rather than learns by ear, and perhaps uses a metronome as a guide for timing is a lesser human being. So long as these aids are used for practice and the end result is the same, I can't see any harm in it. Its a matter of what you do with the tunes once you have learned them. its only when you can play the notes with reasoanble timing that the process of learning to play "correctly" actually starts. A bit like the old saying that you only learn to drive AFTER you have passed your driving test. Yes there is a danger you will play like a robot - but not if you LISTEN to the sounds your making and the sounds you are trying to emulate.
There are risks to learning the other way too. Like only 1/2 knowing tunes and being unable to play them through on your own without other musicians giving you a "lead".
Ultimately, if you take the finest exponents of either method I don't think you'd get a cigarette paper between them. Conversley, there a "not so good" musicians in both camps too.
It all sounds to me like a "non argument" - so long as we all end up in the same place, what does it matter? - each to their own!
However, it is true there are players who learn by ear but do not have a well developed ear. There are players with poor timing who would never consider practicing with a metronome. There's no guarantees one way or the other.
Ormepipes my friend, I respect your attempts at "live and let live" - however, creating arguments over non-arguments is what we do here in Mustardia.
That being said, if they wanted to invent a metronome that really helped a person with playing in a session, they should have a "variable speed" setting that speeds up and slows down randomly. That would simulate a real session complete with drunk players, and force a person to fight against the variances and lock it to their own internal tick-tock. Then, they could also add a pop-radio and sports TV feature that would blast intermittently - again forcing you to play through pub noise distractions.
"No
There are 2 facets; keeping a steady rhythm. and keeping that rhythm at a steady pace.
Finding and keeping a rhythm is a physical thing.
it does not require thought, once the body finds a groove , as long as the mind does not inhibit the body with thinking the body automatically slips into rhythm, though that rhythm may speed up , or slow down. .....As long as the movements made are rhythmical in nature , not jerky disconnected, but smooth and relaxed . Which is why repetition and good form is so important in developing a good rhythm, so it all happens automatically, rhythmically.
The key to finding this is precise bouncy rhythm. A gnome can be one tool too help in finding this bounce. In a way, with some instruments, its literally a bounce rapid percussive flicks , like the Right hand of a banjo, or the fingers of a piper, the sticks of a drummer, the bounce of the bow."
I surely cannot be alone in thinking that this post is the biggest load of dense, impenetrable, inexplicable bollox I've read in years. Naturally, it's only my humble opinion.
That's why the drunks at the bar who start clapping along with your session are always perfectly in time, since they're too pished for their mind to inhibit anything and their bodies automatically slip into a rhythm. It might not be the session's rhythm, but it will be a rhythm. Makes perfect sense.
Maybe with diddley. Drunks usually have a hard time with funk; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YXPJOUD7G0
BTW ~ YouTube has alot of crappy clips for Sly & the Family Stone. Makes me think the site may be a vast wasteland.
Curiosity piqued by this thread. Practiced with a metronome for about an hour tonight. Somehow my skull didn't burst into flames. Rhythm hasn't been too big of a problem for me for a while now. (Now intonation, there's an altogether different kettle of fish to fry )
If nothing else, it enabled me to take my mind entirely off of timing, and focus on other stuff, like tone & intonation -- so there was at least that benefit. (kind of like skiing without poles -- an exercise I used to teach to help clients focus on their feet).
By and large, I agree with most of Will Harmon's points, as long as Will concedes that there is at least a time and place for such things in certain circumstances -- which he has already done by acknowledging that if a player is having some timing issues, then hooking them up to a metronome should sort them out in short order.
I reckon I could be talked into adding drips & drabs of metronome woodshedding to my "regimen" occasionally (using the term "regimen" loosely. lol ) I'll let ye know how she gets on.
It made my son fall asleep faster, so it's got that going for it.
Find it ironic that jig says "one note per click" then, as an example, posts a clip of a concertina player *not* playing one note per click. But... ...sigh... ...we've been through this arithmetic with jig many times before....
Seriously, I'm not a rabid protester against metronomes. I use one occasionally when teaching if I can find a way to use it to help someone.
I just don't think they're *necessary* for anyone who can feel the pulse inside. I don't think they help a lot with developing a "feel" for the music. And in the long run, if you want to play this music well, you'll eventually have to find a pulse *in yourself* that makes other people want to dance.
A common problem I've seen - in my playing and most others -
that's speeding up. It's a mental discipline to take a snapshot
of your tempo at the start of the tune and pay attention to that
as you go so that when get to the end of your tune or tune set,
you're still going at that pace - it matches the mental snapshot
of your intention when you started. When you get into the session
situation you can have people pushing against you trying to
speed it up. It takes a lot of discipline to resist them and keep
it steady.
I like practicing with the metronome sometimes, but it makes
you mentally flabby ,
My thoughts are that if you regularly spend time practicing with a metronome then over time you will get better at playing with a metronome. At first your playing might be a bit stilted but given a bit of work you can probably get it flowing nicely whilst keeping perfect time with the click. Maybe that's why Kevin Burke does it, to prepare himself for ordeal by click track in the studio.
The great majority of us are not going to be recording artists any time soon, so that might not be a particularly useful skill. However, what we do have to do, week in, week out, is to play along with the tempo and rhythmic feel laid down by the person who is leading the set. For that, my advice is to discard the metronome and invest in the technology to allow you to play along with recordings. That will typically mean the use of one of the ‘slow-downer’ programs so that you can alter the tempo, pitch and loop a tune within a set. The music can be commercial recordings, stuff grabbed from Youtube, recordings that you have made at sessions or whatever.
Then, with a tune that you know well, try some of the following:
1. Set the tempo 5-10 bpm slower than you would normally play the tune. Can you keep it nice and steady or are you continually pushing the beat, trying to get the tempo back into familiar territory?
2. Set the tempo 5-10 bpm faster than you would normally play the tune. Can you keep up, or does it turn ragged? In particular are you falling into the usual trap of rushing the tricky bits and so getting ahead of the music?
3. Choose a recording which has a completely different feel to your preferred style. For example, if you tend to play fairly straight then choose some music which is heavily swung. Can you fall into the groove or does the whole thing turn to mush?
4. Play the tune completely bare, stripped of all ornamentation. Now progressively reintroduce it in places where the music wants it to go rather than where you would normally place it.
To me this seems a better approach than the metronome, as it builds your listening abilities as much as your playing abilities.
Unfortunately , without good technique there is little bounce in hand clapping, however, as I said earlier, with lots of practice and good technique that bounce is there to be found.
Its ok Steve I dont expect you to understand . ...
I think also that it's important to play with other people (preferably good, competent players who have a good feel for rhythm and steady tempo). And use your ears whilst you're playing with them. Getting good at this stuff is just as much about listening and interacting as it is about honing your own skills in isolation.
In Firefox: Tools > Options ... > Content > Fonts & Colors ... Background {choose red} > (uncheck) Allow pages to choose their own colors, instead of my selections above > OK > OK
No, drink more SWFL...
Random, surely you see that this thread is a totally obvious trolling manoeuvre. However, one thing that comes up with these mad metronome threads is posters using quotes from famous players, used in isolation, to back up unusual claims. Good musicians change their mind all the time, you can't just pick a quote from the internet and then base an argument, sometimes over and over again, on that quote or opinion.
So, Kevin Burke once made a reference to using a metronome for practicing. (recording is a different discussion entirely) Does anyone think KB gets a metronome out and plays along? Does anyone think that ANY of their favourite players play along to a metronome? If any players still beginning out are in any doubt, ask the best players you know "Do you practise with a metronome?" Most players will have done something with them but in general it will be a no. If you feel the need to us a metronome to keep yourself in time in trad music then you have a long, long, long way to go. Maybe not bothering to go at all would be best if you start using a device like that on the back isolated quotes from the internet.
<,Does anyone think KB gets a metronome out and plays along? >>
Yes, as it happens, he does.Im not quoting from the internet, though he has several times made the point. I have discussed the subject several times With him. We are agreed re metronome, Scales and various technical exercises. Like it or lump it.
cheers
So because you allege that you agree with Mr Burke we are to take that as the final word on the matter, eh? Fer chrissake! Do me a bloody favour, will you, jig. You haven't even proved that you can play yet.
Never mind that. I'm trying to imagine Kevin Burke having several conversations about using a metronome. If that's true the tongue was firmly planted in his cheek.
And he says "you have got to learn to play with a metronome." That could mean learning to play your instrument. We've had all this before. Jig'n'Dick are the only people pushing this stuff down our throats. Do you trust these guys? The conversation is so unreal. I'm questioning my own sanity yet again.
No one is forcing us to read their comments. I'm more interested in what John McGann & Kevin Burke have to say, in their own words, than to merely accept the poor paraphrasing of their ideas as presented by music reader & spellbreaker.
No random your simply mistaken. Im not paraphrasing KB, Just pointing out that he happens to agree with me on this point. I found the metronome out myself learning to drum. We recomend them based upon our own experience with them, not projections and fantasies about what 'might' happen, what 'might' go wrong.... and music reader demonstrated his point quite admirably and I certainly dont think KB influenced his opinions.!
The first time I encountered a metronome, I was nine years old and taking piano lessons with one of my mother's piano teachers. I hated the metronome so much that I tried to throw it out the window. That was my last piano lesson with that particular teacher.
Since then, I have somehow (no I am not sure how I did this) learned how to develop a steady and sure sense of rhythm and timing and pulse.
When I first began participating in a local blues jam, I was having trouble with some of the rhythms of the blues music. One of the semi-retired professional musicians who played piano at these blues jams half-seriously, half jokingly suggested that I think of the rhythms of sex. I tried that and, to my surprise, it actually worked for me. If this means I am beyond professional psychiatric help, I don't care.
I don't even want to be admitted to the "metronome clique". In this case, my attitude towards this is like the man who said he wouldn't join any club which was willing to have him as a member.
When the Irish music sessions started here in 1995, I did ask this semi-retired professional keyboard player if he had any recommendations for Irish music but he wasn't familiar enough with Irish music. He spent too many years in Nashville, Tennessee when he wasn't on the road playing in someone's backup band. Now I can't ask him any more questions because he died of lung cancer in July of last year.
metronomes and feel
metronomes and feel
playing with a metronome is the best way to improve command of the language of tempo and feel.
quote john McGann flatpicking guitar essentials.
he says you can play directly on the beat, or behind the beat using a click, he suggests 120 for a crotchet.
he then says play a down stroke on an open string with each click, then try playing slightly behind the beat.
he goes on. I have found practising with the metronome clicking two beats per measure is a great technique.
what are the opinions of forum members?
# Posted on October 14th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: metronomes and feel
beats me!
# Posted on October 14th 2010 by skin&bow
Re: metronomes and feel
I agree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2zpP7-nSAw
Nice playing Dick.
# Posted on October 14th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: metronomes and feel
Oh feck.. I meant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HeCnT-h7Iw
but seeing as how were on the topic, check this piobaireachd playing out;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2zpP7-nSAw
# Posted on October 14th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: metronomes and feel
Thanks, great piping spellbreaker. Who's the nutter in the other clip with the mad ticking noise. Insane!!!
# Posted on October 14th 2010 by bogman
Re: metronomes and feel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCp7bL-AWvw
# Posted on October 14th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: metronomes and feel
hmmm...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzjkBwZtxp4
cheers
# Posted on October 14th 2010 by pipewatcher
Re: metronomes and feel
I thought it worth finding out the source of the OP. So, I searched John McGann & found the bit down below. I have no prior knowledge of his music or instruction methods. Seems he is not suggesting a reliance on the metronome, but simply trying out different approaches for woodshedding with an emphasis on tempo & rhythm control;
"Putting on the metronome and working slowly on tunes, going for TONE and forgetting about speed. Click on beats 2 and 4 (like a mandolin). Pick a nice easy tempo (yeah, I know, it's more fun to push the envelope and play fast. Bear with me)- play the tune. Next time, try pulling slightly behind the beat. Next time, try pushing the beat (playing a little ahead of it).
It's the feeling of pushing the beat that you want- NOT RUSHING, but having your notes up there like a hood ornament, while the metronome beat is the driver's seat...in other words, staying locked in with the pulse, but relatively ahead of it (Being a little behind is great for swing and jazz playing; it's also where a lot of less-that stellar bluegrass bass players put the beat!)
This feel can Make the Music Happen. Give it a try once you are comfortable just playing along with the metronome with the beat square in the middle (it's not easy, the first time I tried it I thought the thing was messed up, even though it was a quartz electric!)."
# Posted on October 14th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
John McGann is a very fine player and teacher in the Boston area and has been for many years. He's a professor at Berklee and frequently plays with Joe Derrane and Seamus Connolly.
# Posted on October 14th 2010 by Steve L
Re: metronomes and feel
yes exactly, he is a very good player ,because he knows how to use a metronome, he suggests playing behind the beat as well as on the beat, but unfortunately some of the people on this forum, are not prepared to listen to advice from a someone like John McGann.
in my post I quoted him: he says you can play directly on the beat, or behind the beat using a click,
Llig and Bogman are two examples of knee jerk anti metronomism.
# Posted on October 14th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: metronomes and feel
Dick, I did find your posting of the quote a bit disjointed. Perhaps if you focus on the source of the information, John McGann, & less on your detractors it may improve communication, IMHO.
# Posted on October 14th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
"anti-metronomism"?
Are you a member of a persecuted minority now?
# Posted on October 14th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: metronomes and feel
some folks swear by metronomes, others swear at them
# Posted on October 14th 2010 by leoj
Re: metronomes and feel
Here's a clip of John McGann playing some reels on mandolin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8azZ0o1oI8
He's got great technique, and he's a good resource over on www.mandolincafe.com. Seems like a good guy.
But I find his playing sounds mechanical--too rigid with the timing. Not the sort of flow I listen for in this music.
I would say he's a decent musician in spite of his efforts with the metronome.
Much better flow and lift here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-fM6lNebdc&feature=related
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: metronomes and feel
Must admit, I much preferred the MvGann clip there. The other was a bit too jangly and messy for me.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: metronomes and feel
EB, that second clip is on an inexpensive mandolin. Don't let the cheap sound deflect your ears from the playing.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: metronomes and feel
It's a taste thing, I think, Will. There's a fair bit of 'catching' of other strings, and uncoordination between left hand and pick that just isn't my bag.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: metronomes and feel
Well we're hearing it differently, then. To me, McGann's playing is clean, yes, and tricky. But the other clip has pulse and real feel, and nyah, so much so that I must be missing the glitches you hear.
Give me nyah over clean any day. And I suspect the other mando player would sound better to your ears on McGann's expensive mandolin.
Will be interesting to see if others chime in on this comparison.
FWIW, I find that flat picking to a metronome does help some of my students. Mostly the ones who can't seem to hear their own inner pulse. But most of them get it in about 30 seconds, and then they don't need the metronome anymore. I can see some small use for it in helping some people hear the beat and to learn to listen both to their own beat and another outside beat (in preparation for playing in time with another musician).
But I would never use a metronome to teach rhythmic "feel" or pulse. That comes from within, not some external source. the best way to get in touch with your inner pulse is to dance, or at least hop around in time, or sing, and breathe in time to the music. All of these methods are both more natural and easier to grasp and integrate than the click of a metronome.
I love the clip of Isaac Stern in China back in the 1970s. He's on stage with a young violin prodigy (who later came to the US and played with a major orchestra). She plays a piece for Stern (in front of an audience of 3,000 people). He stops her and demonstrates how wooden her rhythm and feel is. What remedy does he recommend? A metronome? No. He asks her to sing a few phrases of the piece. She's terrified--after all, she's a violinist, not a singer. But Stern encourages her, and she gives it a try. Her singing is a bit timid, but beautiful, full of life and pulse. Stern is jubilant. He then asks her to play just as she sang. "Sing it here, he says, tapping his head, "and play it on your violin." She does, and the piece comes alive.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: metronomes and feel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_to_Be_Destroyed
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by RichardB
Re: metronomes and feel
I have recently gone back and read this: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/25288
The context is that although when playing on my own I can keep a steady tempo when playing with one or two other beginners we accelerate. My hunch - comments please - is that it is easier to hear when someone starts a note slightly before I do than when I am ahead and there is maybe an instinct up 'keep up'. So if we are not used to each others rhythm (or more likely are just plain ragged) and two or more people react the same way there would be a feedback loop that resuted in acceleration.
Is that right and what to do about it ? Practicing playing slightly behind the beat with a recording (that Molloy bloke will just not slow down ! ) ? One more experienced guy has said that he tryng to stick with the beat but not listen too hard to the individual notes we are playing.
(off for the weekend in a couple of hours, if this discussion vanishes I will ask the question as a new discussion)
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by David50
Re: metronomes and feel
I think the reason that happens, David, is that beginners tend to rush on certain phrases. Each beginner may well rush on different phrases of the tune. Each other player then tries to catch up on the bits that the others are rushing, and that leads to overall acceleration. To break that cycle, it may well be good to practice with a metronome as Will suggests using it, for a short while, just to open your eyes to where you are playing it wrong. But you've got to, pretty quickly, internalise the pulse - to feel the pulse of the music inside you. then you can play rock steady, and still get the flow and drive a dnpulse and lift and whatever other adjective you want in your playing.
I'd like it if others commented on those two clips, Will. I think they're a very interesting juxtaposition. And normally, I'd be with you 100% - nyah, and even dirt, over clean but sterile any day. I'm just saying that, in this case, the second clip didn't work for me. The glitches messed it up for me, and I couldn't appreciate the tune.
(Actually, I like dirt, in moderation.)
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: metronomes and feel
Thanks eb. I thought I had been doing that though
What a metronome makes me aware of is uneveness of notes within the beat (say half a bar of a jig) or rushing 'easy' runs; I thought I was getting grip on that.. But yes, maybe the different dynamic of trying to 'make music' with other people causes rushing at the level of phrases. (I only just noticed that you are now merged as well as blended)
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by David50
Re: metronomes and feel
OK, so now you've identified the problem fix it sans metronome. Throw the stabilisers away!
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
David_h, I developed a good rhythm when I was made to sit in gigs with a bodhran player who was messing the rhythm completely (alternately accelerating and lagging behind) and was charged with responsibility to keep him on the beat - for four long years. That makes you learn to keep the rhythm, as well as to play really loud.
But less tongue-in-cheekly:
Accelerating takes place when your playing is on the level of avoiding immediate disaster of technical fumble. Once you can unglue you eyes and mind from your fingers/bow, you can set your mind to a more calm state, when you can start to see the melody in a broader context, and also have the luxury of reflecting on various aspects of your playing while doing it. Try concentrating in the beginning of the tune on the tempo (i.e. playing it in your head before you start it on your instrument, and storing it in the back of your head, checking it up every now and then).
For quite a time, I had this tendency to accelerate when playing (I still *sometimes* do in those rare moments when I have to concentrate too much on technically challenging phrases that I have not trained well enough). I tried the metronome, but that never worked for me well - while keeping the tempo steady, it was just another technical aspect that took my mind off the actual feel of the music. And when it was off, I still accelerated. And then I started working on internalisation, trying out various methods.
Two things worked for me the best:
1. Playing a lot at Sunday afternoon tempos with distinctive pulsation and phrasing (like on Micheal O'Raghallaigh's "The Nervous Man")
2 Visualising dancers while playing (putting the rhythm in context).
It took me two or three weeks at most to stop accelerating - and it just worked for fast playing too. Whenever I'm playing with someone who tends to accelerate and I notice I'm beginning to follow him, I'm concentrating on the pulse and I'm picturing a dancer following the music - and then nothing can shake my rhythm.
I don't know if a metronome can help or not; all I can say is that in my experience you can do without it, and do fine indeed.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Janek
Re: metronomes and feel
I've tried using metronomes, but they all seem to be a little off, not working properly or something.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: metronomes and feel
Thanks for that EastPole. It could be that when I record myself to check if I am speeding up I pay attention to tempo but when I play a tune working on something else the tempo variation creeps back. So maybe its not only a 'playing with other people' thing.
Dancing, hmm, some things that people said in Will's contra dance band thread were very tempting.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by David50
Re: metronomes and feel
Meant to say that "Accelerating takes place when your playing is on the level of avoiding immediate disaster of technical fumble" and what followed are very appropriate to where I am at.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by David50
Re: metronomes and feel
keeping a steady beat--that's what your foot is for. of course, that takes practice too
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by leoj
Re: metronomes and feel
There was a interesting quote from Miles Davis in that other thread where he deliberately hired musicians for his band where the percussion players pushed ahead of the beat and the melody players played behind. I'm assuming this is from sometime around the 80s. The dramatic tension in his music from that time was immense. If you listen hard to it, really concentrate on what's going on (not easy, it's very dense), you just can't help your stomach muscles from tightening up. It's very powerful.
But why the heck would you want to create that sort of feeling with diddley music? A lot of players do do it of course, but only the really crap ones. I think that one of the real skills in playing diddley music well is to try to strip it of as much tension as you can. Interestingly, though, the way the music is made up is a great facilitator for this.
There was a good quote on another thread that I liked: "a classical musician who had fallen in love with Irish music described it as having its own built-in percussion." Because the melody and rhythm are so inextricably linked, because they are one in the same, it makes it impossible to put one ahead and the other behind.
What I think is a bit daft about the concept of playing ahead or behind the beat in diddley music is that it's the player/players who define where the beat or pulse is. There's this kind of daft backwards thinking to ahead or behind the beat. You could have two players where one is ahead of the other and you could say the beat is in between them. But what if both players think they are ahead of the beat, just one slightly more so? It doesn't make sense. And this is where the metronome doesn't make sense. It takes away the musicians' responsibility. It takes away the pulse. Music to a metronome has no pulse. It has no heart. It is dead music.
There's another interesting quote from Miles Davis from the 80s - he's being interviewed by this really tedious German bloke and he's so bored he's doodling with different coloured pens on a piece of paper. The doodling is more interesting than the interview and the interviewer starts to notice this. The doodling consists of layers of interweaving wavy lines. The interviewer asks Miles what happens when one of the lines goes awry. Miles answers that there's no such thing as awry, the lines go where they want and the other lines go with it.
So playing with a metronome is like drawing on graph paper.
But can a metronome ever be useful? Yes, I believe it can. If you're so bad and you don't even realise you are so awful, it can/should help you realise this. Though playing with it won't help, of course, as I said before (re the original post).
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
Stabilisers! LOL Ah do I have to remind you that Kevin Burke still uses a metronome. Both for practice at home and albums. Perhaps there is a reason for that that you haven't figured out yet....
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: metronomes and feel
"keeping a steady beat--that's what your foot is for. of course, that takes practice too"
It's a good job that the hundred players in a symphony orchestra don't tap their feet. The Albert Hall would be no more. A lot of good diddley players don't tap their feet (and a lot of others do, I know). It's good to experiment with not doing it once in a while to see how the old internal sense of rhythm is coming along.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
No he doesn't. You're at it again, aren't you. We cleared that one up months ago.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
<<No he doesn't. You're at it again, aren't you. We cleared that one up months ago. >>
~Oh yes he does!
[hes behind you!]
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: metronomes and feel
Not for nothing, but Miles Davis also thought white guys played differently than black guys, too, so he would hire some white guys for his band literally for the contrast. I say that because Miles was a great improvisor, but he was also sort of a nut.
Recording studios generally make you play with a click track. That's basically a metronome in your headphones. They do that so that they can isolate each instrument (you do that so you can get the mix you want). So saying somone uses a metronome on their records is not a good testimony because they probably don't have a choice if they are recording for a big record company.
all that said, some people like metronomes, some don't. Its a tool, but ultimately you have to be able to play with a good time feel. You can miss the notes and the other musicians will notice, but you blow the rhythm and even the drunks at the bar can tell
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: metronomes and feel
Burke will be in tow non Wednesday. What if I asked him to clear this matter up once and for all?
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: metronomes and feel
In this case, I don't think the analogy of classical orchestras works, Steve. It seems to me that, when you listen carefully to what's actually going on, rhythm and tempo in classical music is actually *more* changeable and less steady than in trad. A lot more. Rhythm in trad is fluid in a different way and the beat tends to be much steadier.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: metronomes and feel
It's that Annie Hall moment ...
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: metronomes and feel
Well, that depends on the piece. I've seen Beethoven's Eighth symphony performed a good few times - the one with the second movement which is a p*ss-take on Maalzel's newly-invented metronome - and no-one tapped their feet!
Even Beethoven wasn't keen. Do we think that trumps even Kevin Burke? Heheh.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
Actually, I'm curious if they record him with a click track and isolate all the instruments like they do a pop artist or if they let him play with his mates and record it "live" like they did in the old days. Do you figure on visiting with him?
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: metronomes and feel
I've worked for bandleaders that did an exercise in rehearsal that was meant to get us all thinking and counting time together. What you did was clap on the down beat of the first measure, then count silently to yourself for 4 bars, then clap on the downbeat of the 5th bar. Then we'd count 8 then 16 then 32 bars. One time we did 64 bars and all came back in absolutely together. They was 14 of us with the horn section. so that was pretty tight.
I also heard that Earl Scrugg's band would start playing a tune and one half of the group would walk around the barn to the left, the others started around to the right. As they came back together on the other side of the barn, they would be perfectly together
To me, its this kind of time keeping in an ensamble that's important
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: metronomes and feel
I love the Eighth, Steve. I was, of course, generalising. You take the vast majority of classical music - even properly Classical, as opposed to Baroque, Romantic or what have you, and the tempo, and rhythm in most performances, amateur or professional, are fluid to say the least. I know this one may be extreme, but try Solti conducting the Pastoral Symphony.
[Oh, and before you ask, I put Beethoven firmly in the Classical pot, rather than Romantic]
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: metronomes and feel
Good point ethical. So Kevin could still use it because he is obliged to as a result of being a professional musician. Id agree with that to an extent; if you want to be, or play up to the level of, a pro, then maybe you need to learn to play with a metronome.
But IMO its a fun tool that can be very interesting to work with for anyone. Though the particular sound is crucial; I prefer a wooden or bass drum sound
cheers prof. But do chat with him about it then it wont only be me saying it . Ive had several discussions on this matter and others with Kevin Im merely relaying the information. What people chose to do with it, disregard, disbelieve, disdain or consider carefully, is up to them.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: metronomes and feel
Recording studios don't "make" anybody do anything any more than restaurants make customers eat their vegetables. If you're doing film scoring, then beats per minute is a crucial factor.
Playing with a metronome develops your internal clock so you can fine tune aspects of your playing if that matters to you. You can keep a steady tempo in a tune but rush triplets within a bar or something. The metronome can give you one more tool to improve your ability to play with people. Playing with people has it's own skill set, and time and feel are 2 very different things. You can't play ahead or behind the beat if you don't know where the beat is. When i hear bad playing, it's usually not poor note choices...the tunes are the tunes. It's usually lousy feel and bad time. You can't teach feel but you can improve time.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Steve L
Re: metronomes and feel
“I also heard that Earl Scrugg's band would start playing a tune and one half of the group would walk around the barn to the left, the others started around to the right.”
I’ve heard that story told about Doyle Lawson and his band, only it was for a cappella singing. Maybe they all did it. Or maybe it's just a good story.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: metronomes and feel
Steve, there's a difference between a recording studio where you are paying them, and a record company that is paying you to make a record. If you get picked up by Capitol Records, get ready to play with a click track, that's all I'm saying
It is true that if you want to be a professional, you better be able to play with a metronome.
I do agree that you can't play ahead of or behind the beat without any sense of time. And like I said, a metronome is a tool.
Personally, I think the best way is to develop a good time feel is to play with musicians that have a good time feel.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: metronomes and feel
Or play live.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
Sorry, I hit send prematurely there. I meant you can just play it live when you're recording and sod the metronome. I can well see that that isn't always possible. When we made my CD I had a click track in my ear for just one track out of fourteen, and it shows. I sound like a bloody automaton (comments about the other tracks will be ungratefully received!
)
My view is that a metronome can tell you that you need to work on your internal rhythm but that you can't use it to fix anything. A stethoscope can tell you that you have a heart murmur but the stethoscope can do bugger all about it.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
that's how I see it, too. And I also do agree that I hate to play with a click track. I use a metronome from time to time still, but its when I'm trying to fix a problem. But I did spend time with one when I was young
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: metronomes and feel
If you have that Irvine-Brady CD listen to the last tune on the last track, Little Stack of Wheat. It's sublimely played on that track, but listen again. It ends slightly faster than it begins. Anyone complaining?
Wasn't Kevin Burke playing on that track...?
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
The thing is that if you're trying to micro-manage your internal rhythm to the extent of slavishly matching it to a metronome you're ceasing to be a human being playing music and, worse, you're training yourself to be that way. What makes live music so great is the, er, sheer human inexactitude of it all. That isn't to say that there are no people who need work doing on their rhythm. But they generally stick out like a sore thumb. What worked best for me, by a country mile, was playing tunes with blokes who had a lot of experience and musical personality and who had developed a rock-steady and confident sense of both rhythm and tempo, and my best tool was my pair of ears.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
... about playing a bit ahead of the beat via cut & paste;
"...in other words, staying locked in with the pulse, but relatively ahead of it (Being a little behind is great for swing and jazz playing; it's also where a lot of less-that-stellar bluegrass bass players put the beat!)"
http://www.johnmcgann.com/contest.html
Playing “on the Front of the Beat”
"Lilt is heard in the uneven subdivision of the pulse and the variance of stress. It is also heard in another way. If you listen carefully, you will notice that traditional Irish musicians tend to play “on the front of the beat.” That is, they tend to place on-pulse notes a very slight bit early. This lends the music a feeling of “leaning forward,” of forward motion and momentum. Some Irish musicians speak of a feeling of “lift” on the downbeat.
By contrast, blues musicians, to give one example, often do the opposite. They tend to play on the back of the beat, placing on-pulse notes a very slight bit late. This creates a “laid-back” feeling.
http://www.greylarsen.com/store/samples/essguide_chap1-2.pdf
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
Of course any decent musician should be able to keep a steady beat, and so be able to play with a metronome. But extrapolating from that that you *must* play/practice with a metronome to become a decent or professional musician is just an abuse of logic (or an embrace of illogic).
I played for years in a bluegrass band. The bass player had the best sense of rhythm I've ever heard. He did not use a metronome. But he *demanded* good rhythm and timing from the rest of us. His holy grail was tight rhythm for the whole band. After weeks of playing in the band, my rhythm was rock solid. After six years in the band, it was totally ingrained.
Some years later, someone questioned my rhythm. I suspected it was their rhythm that was off. So I pulled up an online metronome and played along--no problems. Turns out my rhythm was still rock solid. But I didn't *need* a metronome to get me there.
The bass player taught rhythm by example. But he also told us to focus on our internal pulse, and to feel the weight, the "heaviness," of each downbeat (even if we weren't playing each downbeat). That sense of the downbeats being physically heavy is crucial, I think, if you want to be able to shift your timing around them but still stay right with the beat.
Works for me. I'm a professional musician. No metronome needed, now nor earlier in my musical development.
Prof. Prlwytzkofsky, I'd love to hear what Kevin Burke has to say about metronomes. Over the course of a number of lessons and workshops and personal correspondence I've had with him, starting some 25 years ago and continuing till fairly recently, he's never once mentioned a metronome. (It's possible he thought my rhythm wasn't an issue and so I didn't need one.)
So if you do get the chance, it'd be great to hear his thoughts on developing pulse and a solid rhythm. And his personal use (or not) of the machine.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: metronomes and feel
I said that you better be able to play with one if you are a professional, but what I mean is that you better be able to handle that playing situation if somebody puts you in that position. I never got famous, but when I was paying rent with my guitar I had to be able to play whatever came my way. So I never had a situation where I made my living from one kind of playing. That's where I'm comming from. The work ethic sort of thing. The more you can do, the less burgers you have to flip. But I don't think metronomes are necessary, and I agree with alot of what steve says
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: metronomes and feel
Nate, I was thinking not of anything you posted, but of this from spellbreaker: "if you want to be, or play up to the level of, a pro, then maybe you need to learn to play with a metronome."
In this music, many of the pros I know did not use a metronome to develop their impeccable rhythm and timing. Can they play along to a click track? Of course. Anyone with a solid sense of rhythm and the ability to listen to another musician and play at the same time can do that.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: metronomes and feel
I have to point out that I first used a metronome about 5 yrs ago while learning to play a drumkit, the first 30yrs I never played with a metronome ,ever.
Where it is relevant is that its a very interesting and sometimes challenging thing to do . Of course in drumming you are 'juggling' your Right/left patterns with the various drums and cymbal's available, so to some extent much busier than other instruments The requirement to be rhythmically spot on between snare, bass and highhat while also extemporising around the kit means that A click track is very useful as reference.
So with a click track IMO you are removing leeway in your playing that can develop as a learner and obviously, as even experts use them, there must be some value in it for accomplished and experienced musicians.
Personally I prefer playing with a good Bodhran player who knows the tune. or for that matter any good tight player . There is a great 'groove' to be part of. But for helping develop technical skills I feel tools like the Gnome can be very valuable.
We can agree to differ..... Express our opinions without attacking others . cheers.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: metronomes and feel
I didn't feel under any scrutiny, but I did actually make a pretty bold statement and wanted to clarify what I meant. I thought I sounded like a metronome nazi, which is not anything close to how I actually feel about it. But thanks, Will, for being considerate
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: metronomes and feel
Clearly KB didn't use a click track on If the Cap Fits (check the start and end of the 19-reel or however many it is marathon). And thank goodness he didn't.
If he used one in later recordings, that might explain why (to my ear) they tend to sound careful and stilted in comparison with the exuberance of that great record.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Jeeves Tones
Re: metronomes and feel
Takes all sorts thats my least favourite KB album by far.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: metronomes and feel
I have truly enjoyed this month's episode of "topics we've beaten the living sh!t out of 1000 times before."
Metronomes and feel? If you want to improve your sense of feel, then invest in a few sets of lacy silk underwear. When you feel sexy, you PLAY sexy. No metronome can make do that...
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: metronomes and feel
Nice to see a metronome thread with a reasonable streak in it.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: metronomes and feel
Damn. Thought you said "reasonable steak" ...
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: metronomes and feel
Does having sex to a metronome improve the experience?
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: metronomes and feel
Funny how JNE and I cross-posted about streaking and lingerie....
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: metronomes and feel
Dunno, TSS, but whatever makes you tick ...
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: metronomes and feel
Of course, as a Catholic, I'd be using the rhythm method ...
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: metronomes and feel
If you metronome-swap with a friend, does that make you a swinger?
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: metronomes and feel
I don't know, but if you have more than one metronome, is it an orgy?
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: metronomes and feel
Was sex different before people began recording the experience? Not that I've done any recording.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
Define recording. Someone once showed me an epic collection of Burns poetry, the stuff that didn't make it to high school English textbooks. It's like reading Scots porn.
Which leads to the next question..... Is reading about sex sufficient for understanding it, or do you need to see it and do it?
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: metronomes and feel
Which brings us right back to the subject: "feel"
heh heh
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: metronomes and feel
Burns is grand!
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
So that's what he meant by "small wee timerous beastie"
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ormepipes
Re: metronomes and feel
Ewwww. I'm never gonna look at haggis that same way after that, ormepipes.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: metronomes and feel
SS - "Does having sex to a metronome improve the experience?"
I guess that would depend upon the BPM -
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: metronomes and feel
... and if the metronome has a bell ...
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: metronomes and feel
Ding dong!
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: metronomes and feel
For those who know the lingo;
http://www.garethjmsaunders.co.uk/writing/poetry/3matthewfit.txt
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
likely a repost from a marimba slant, but IMHO Max's metronomic thoughts are worth considering
http://www.maxkrimmel.com/ShonaMusic/Misc.Music/MetronomeCourse.html
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by mike henry
Re: metronomes and feel
SS - "Does having sex to a metronome improve the experience?"
Placed properly, one of these might do the trick:
http://www.petersontuners.com/index.cfm?category=132
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: metronomes and feel
Max: "One reason for metronome practice is to sensitize ourselves to many gradations of tempo and be able to play them."
Maybe, but at what point does one become sensitized enough to forgo the metronome?
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
That depends on the individual., and if they wish to...
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: metronomes and feel
I come from a backround of solo classical and fingerstyle steel string guitar, where I never used a metronome, and I rarely played with other musicians. When I became interested in trad I started playing Celtic backup and after listening to recordings of myself I quickly discovered that I was not so good rhythmically. I did a lot of practicing with a metronome and it helped quite a bit. However, it was taking up percussion that really brought out my feel for rhythm. I bought a bodhran (don't worry, not to take to sessions) simply so that I could develop better rhythm in my own movements. It made me a better player on evey other instrument.
I use a metronome now not so much to practice playing in 'perfect time'', but more for getting newly learned tunes up to typical session speeds.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by magnetite
Re: metronomes and feel
Spellbreaker, the max kimmel page didn't seem to be concerned with a musician's wishes. Would you agree continuous use of the metronome, over time, might prevent a musician from playing a steady tempo without said device?
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
Magnetite, I used a bodhran, also, early on in my quest to play The Music well. Never play it in public, but I learned a lot from thumping around.
Regarding metronomes, like a lot of people, I see a metronome as a practical tool to use from time to time to hone my skills. I have used it to check my rhythm on tunes that have been giving me problems. I have also used it in strumming drills to try to improve my accompaniment skills, and speed up and even up my strumming. Not something that is helpful if used too much, but a handy aid when used in moderation.
But to others a metronome seems to symbolize a point that must be hammered home to 'win' an argument on an internet chat site.
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by AlBrown
Jusy sayin'
Al, except for Jeremy, when is the last time anyone won an argument on the Mustard Pages?
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
<<Spellbreaker, the max kimmel page didn't seem to be concerned with a musician's wishes. Would you agree continuous use of the metronome, over time, might prevent a musician from playing a steady tempo without said device? >>
No
There are 2 facets; keeping a steady rhythm. and keeping that rhythm at a steady pace.
Finding and keeping a rhythm is a physical thing.
it does not require thought, once the body finds a groove , as long as the mind does not inhibit the body with thinking the body automatically slips into rhythm, though that rhythm may speed up , or slow down. .....As long as the movements made are rhythmical in nature , not jerky disconnected, but smooth and relaxed . Which is why repetition and good form is so important in developing a good rhythm, so it all happens automatically, rhythmically.
The key to finding this is precise bouncy rhythm. A gnome can be one tool too help in finding this bounce. In a way, with some instruments, its literally a bounce rapid percussive flicks , like the Right hand of a banjo, or the fingers of a piper, the sticks of a drummer, the bounce of the bow.
Its all in the timing
# Posted on October 15th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: metronomes and feel
So it is conceivable that at a certain point anyone is capable of playing without a metronome, since there are other ways to keep a steady *rhythm*. By the way I usually make a distinction between tempo & rhythm. By "keeping rhythm at a steady pace" I think you are using the term pace in the same way I use the term tempo. I'm not sure how you are using steady rhythm, unless you mean all notes are of equal value.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
...
I'm also not sure what is meant by a "precise bouncy rhythm"
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
So many posts about the merits of different philosophies on how to play.
What works for different people is, well, different. We all have different needs beacuase we are all better at some aspects than others.
I think it quite wrong to decide that just because one individual reads music rather than learns by ear, and perhaps uses a metronome as a guide for timing is a lesser human being. So long as these aids are used for practice and the end result is the same, I can't see any harm in it. Its a matter of what you do with the tunes once you have learned them. its only when you can play the notes with reasoanble timing that the process of learning to play "correctly" actually starts. A bit like the old saying that you only learn to drive AFTER you have passed your driving test. Yes there is a danger you will play like a robot - but not if you LISTEN to the sounds your making and the sounds you are trying to emulate.
There are risks to learning the other way too. Like only 1/2 knowing tunes and being unable to play them through on your own without other musicians giving you a "lead".
Ultimately, if you take the finest exponents of either method I don't think you'd get a cigarette paper between them. Conversley, there a "not so good" musicians in both camps too.
It all sounds to me like a "non argument" - so long as we all end up in the same place, what does it matter? - each to their own!
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by ormepipes
Re: metronomes and feel
it does go back to how you learnt a tune. That's the primary source & it has a profound effect on how comfortable you are with playing the tune.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
However, it is true there are players who learn by ear but do not have a well developed ear. There are players with poor timing who would never consider practicing with a metronome. There's no guarantees one way or the other.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
Ormepipes my friend, I respect your attempts at "live and let live" - however, creating arguments over non-arguments is what we do here in Mustardia.
That being said, if they wanted to invent a metronome that really helped a person with playing in a session, they should have a "variable speed" setting that speeds up and slows down randomly. That would simulate a real session complete with drunk players, and force a person to fight against the variances and lock it to their own internal tick-tock. Then, they could also add a pop-radio and sports TV feature that would blast intermittently - again forcing you to play through pub noise distractions.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
http://www.adhdlibrary.org/library/effects-of-interactive-metronome-rhtymicity-training-on-children-with-adhd/
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Works for me
A.D.H.D. Library dot org spells it rhtymicity
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
"No
There are 2 facets; keeping a steady rhythm. and keeping that rhythm at a steady pace.
Finding and keeping a rhythm is a physical thing.
it does not require thought, once the body finds a groove , as long as the mind does not inhibit the body with thinking the body automatically slips into rhythm, though that rhythm may speed up , or slow down. .....As long as the movements made are rhythmical in nature , not jerky disconnected, but smooth and relaxed . Which is why repetition and good form is so important in developing a good rhythm, so it all happens automatically, rhythmically.
The key to finding this is precise bouncy rhythm. A gnome can be one tool too help in finding this bounce. In a way, with some instruments, its literally a bounce rapid percussive flicks , like the Right hand of a banjo, or the fingers of a piper, the sticks of a drummer, the bounce of the bow."
I surely cannot be alone in thinking that this post is the biggest load of dense, impenetrable, inexplicable bollox I've read in years. Naturally, it's only my humble opinion.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
I've read it several times over & still cannot break the code.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
Ye know Steve that was fairly ok..
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by big_tab
Re: metronomes and feel
That's why the drunks at the bar who start clapping along with your session are always perfectly in time, since they're too pished for their mind to inhibit anything and their bodies automatically slip into a rhythm. It might not be the session's rhythm, but it will be a rhythm. Makes perfect sense.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: metronomes and feel
Maybe with diddley. Drunks usually have a hard time with funk;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YXPJOUD7G0
BTW ~ YouTube has alot of crappy clips for Sly & the Family Stone. Makes me think the site may be a vast wasteland.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Good night, Gracie
I'm done. I was trying to download one last thing & was thrown offline in the last little bit.
Maybe YouTube can redeem itself with some Buddy Guy ...
Thanks Dragut Reis, on the other thread;
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/25776
I raided the Artist index & Video vault earlier today ~
http://ceolalainn.blogspot.com/2009/09/denis-murphy-music-from-sliabh-luachra.html
&
http://ceolalainn.blogspot.com/2009/09/ceol-clair-1978.html
Looking forward to listening to some good tunes.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
I Can't Quit You Baby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39W46dLA8BI
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
Curiosity piqued by this thread. Practiced with a metronome for about an hour tonight. Somehow my skull didn't burst into flames. Rhythm hasn't been too big of a problem for me for a while now. (Now intonation, there's an altogether different kettle of fish to fry
If nothing else, it enabled me to take my mind entirely off of timing, and focus on other stuff, like tone & intonation -- so there was at least that benefit. (kind of like skiing without poles -- an exercise I used to teach to help clients focus on their feet).
By and large, I agree with most of Will Harmon's points, as long as Will concedes that there is at least a time and place for such things in certain circumstances -- which he has already done by acknowledging that if a player is having some timing issues, then hooking them up to a metronome should sort them out in short order.
I reckon I could be talked into adding drips & drabs of metronome woodshedding to my "regimen" occasionally (using the term "regimen" loosely. lol ) I'll let ye know how she gets on.
It made my son fall asleep faster, so it's got that going for it.
Find it ironic that jig says "one note per click" then, as an example, posts a clip of a concertina player *not* playing one note per click. But... ...sigh... ...we've been through this arithmetic with jig many times before....
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by browndog
Re: metronomes and feel
Seriously, I'm not a rabid protester against metronomes. I use one occasionally when teaching if I can find a way to use it to help someone.
I just don't think they're *necessary* for anyone who can feel the pulse inside. I don't think they help a lot with developing a "feel" for the music. And in the long run, if you want to play this music well, you'll eventually have to find a pulse *in yourself* that makes other people want to dance.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: metronomes and feel
A common problem I've seen - in my playing and most others -
that's speeding up. It's a mental discipline to take a snapshot
of your tempo at the start of the tune and pay attention to that
as you go so that when get to the end of your tune or tune set,
you're still going at that pace - it matches the mental snapshot
of your intention when you started. When you get into the session
situation you can have people pushing against you trying to
speed it up. It takes a lot of discipline to resist them and keep
it steady.
I like practicing with the metronome sometimes, but it makes
you mentally flabby ,
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Hup
Re: metronomes and feel
Hi Jusa,
"creating arguments over non-arguments is what we do here in Mustardia."
And thats another thing, can't we get that billious colour changed? - perhaps something in green/white/gold - or a nice red flock?
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by ormepipes
Re: metronomes and feel
My thoughts are that if you regularly spend time practicing with a metronome then over time you will get better at playing with a metronome. At first your playing might be a bit stilted but given a bit of work you can probably get it flowing nicely whilst keeping perfect time with the click. Maybe that's why Kevin Burke does it, to prepare himself for ordeal by click track in the studio.
The great majority of us are not going to be recording artists any time soon, so that might not be a particularly useful skill. However, what we do have to do, week in, week out, is to play along with the tempo and rhythmic feel laid down by the person who is leading the set. For that, my advice is to discard the metronome and invest in the technology to allow you to play along with recordings. That will typically mean the use of one of the ‘slow-downer’ programs so that you can alter the tempo, pitch and loop a tune within a set. The music can be commercial recordings, stuff grabbed from Youtube, recordings that you have made at sessions or whatever.
Then, with a tune that you know well, try some of the following:
1. Set the tempo 5-10 bpm slower than you would normally play the tune. Can you keep it nice and steady or are you continually pushing the beat, trying to get the tempo back into familiar territory?
2. Set the tempo 5-10 bpm faster than you would normally play the tune. Can you keep up, or does it turn ragged? In particular are you falling into the usual trap of rushing the tricky bits and so getting ahead of the music?
3. Choose a recording which has a completely different feel to your preferred style. For example, if you tend to play fairly straight then choose some music which is heavily swung. Can you fall into the groove or does the whole thing turn to mush?
4. Play the tune completely bare, stripped of all ornamentation. Now progressively reintroduce it in places where the music wants it to go rather than where you would normally place it.
To me this seems a better approach than the metronome, as it builds your listening abilities as much as your playing abilities.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: metronomes and feel
Unfortunately , without good technique there is little bounce in hand clapping, however, as I said earlier, with lots of practice and good technique that bounce is there to be found.
Its ok Steve I dont expect you to understand . ...
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: metronomes and feel
I think also that it's important to play with other people (preferably good, competent players who have a good feel for rhythm and steady tempo). And use your ears whilst you're playing with them. Getting good at this stuff is just as much about listening and interacting as it is about honing your own skills in isolation.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
My response was to john above and not to the incomprehensible post just after him.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
Sorry to comment all the way down here, but I just read the discussion... Most of what is being said has been said before.
After reading the post about the mando player with nyahh etc, I was expecting something decent.
I think they're both pretty bland. If anything I wouldn't go for the fella you liked William! Shame on you!
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: metronomes and feel
A few decades ago, I used to play mandolin and I always felt it was hard to squeeze the nyah out of it.
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: metronomes and feel
While we're on Northumbrian pipe versions of this tune:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x02rpK7uzkg
No distracting ticks, albeit nearly half the video is blether. Or this (and she thinks of it as "a work in progress"!)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I38RumC5cTY
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Jack Campin
Alternatives to the mustard page
In Firefox: Tools > Options ... > Content > Fonts & Colors ... Background {choose red} > (uncheck) Allow pages to choose their own colors, instead of my selections above > OK > OK
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
eh up, watch it random , guards are here asking after you.. keep yer head down
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Point & click
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronome
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
I find the bottom half of the article right in line with how this thread has developed;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronome#Views_on_the_metronome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronome#Criticism_of_metronome_use
# Posted on October 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
I'm so sorry I bothered to open this thread! yikes.
# Posted on October 17th 2010 by celtic marine
Re: metronomes and feel
No no, think of it as a learning experience. Now you know about metronomes and how useless they are in learning how to dance.
Oops! Sorry! I forgot that our music has no connection to dance anymore and is strictly relegated to a *#^&*$&* clicking noise.
# Posted on October 17th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: metronomes and feel
OK, no more drunken posting for this fiddler.
# Posted on October 17th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: metronomes and feel
No, drink more SWFL...
Random, surely you see that this thread is a totally obvious trolling manoeuvre. However, one thing that comes up with these mad metronome threads is posters using quotes from famous players, used in isolation, to back up unusual claims. Good musicians change their mind all the time, you can't just pick a quote from the internet and then base an argument, sometimes over and over again, on that quote or opinion.
So, Kevin Burke once made a reference to using a metronome for practicing. (recording is a different discussion entirely) Does anyone think KB gets a metronome out and plays along? Does anyone think that ANY of their favourite players play along to a metronome? If any players still beginning out are in any doubt, ask the best players you know "Do you practise with a metronome?" Most players will have done something with them but in general it will be a no. If you feel the need to us a metronome to keep yourself in time in trad music then you have a long, long, long way to go. Maybe not bothering to go at all would be best if you start using a device like that on the back isolated quotes from the internet.
# Posted on October 17th 2010 by bogman
Re: metronomes and feel
<,Does anyone think KB gets a metronome out and plays along? >>
Yes, as it happens, he does.Im not quoting from the internet, though he has several times made the point. I have discussed the subject several times With him. We are agreed re metronome, Scales and various technical exercises. Like it or lump it.
cheers
# Posted on October 17th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: metronomes and feel
So because you allege that you agree with Mr Burke we are to take that as the final word on the matter, eh? Fer chrissake! Do me a bloody favour, will you, jig. You haven't even proved that you can play yet.
# Posted on October 17th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
Never mind that. I'm trying to imagine Kevin Burke having several conversations about using a metronome. If that's true the tongue was firmly planted in his cheek.
# Posted on October 17th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
He was humouring you, jig. Deal with it.
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
"I have discussed the subject several times With him."
Surely this should read "I have discussed the subject several times with Him."
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Steve Shaw
More paste ...
Kevin Burke on practice
May 28, 2010 highland-piper
http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?p=969275&sid=a3f8e5527f535d339b18c2679c0f7d42
Q. You told us the other day that the metronome was, “an instrument of torture but it is fantastic.”
"Oh yes, you have got to learn to play with a metronome. Even if you don't do it for life, just that experience helps. You think you are playing on the money and unless you are practicing with a metronome you are probably not. It really is embarrassing."
http://seankenan.com/Interviews/FiddleInterviews_KevinBurkeJune2007.html
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
It's a good quote. Though it says nothing about a "precise bouncy rhythm"
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
And he says "you have got to learn to play with a metronome." That could mean learning to play your instrument. We've had all this before. Jig'n'Dick are the only people pushing this stuff down our throats. Do you trust these guys? The conversation is so unreal. I'm questioning my own sanity yet again.
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
And for anyone looking at that Chiff link, you should know that fiddlerwill is jig/Spellbreaker.
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
No one is forcing us to read their comments. I'm more interested in what John McGann & Kevin Burke have to say, in their own words, than to merely accept the poor paraphrasing of their ideas as presented by music reader & spellbreaker.
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
No random your simply mistaken. Im not paraphrasing KB, Just pointing out that he happens to agree with me on this point. I found the metronome out myself learning to drum. We recomend them based upon our own experience with them, not projections and fantasies about what 'might' happen, what 'might' go wrong.... and music reader demonstrated his point quite admirably and I certainly dont think KB influenced his opinions.!
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: metronomes and feel
Would that be the royal "we" by any chance? Heheh.
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
Spellbreaker, I'm only human. I make mistakes frequently.
Cheers!
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
And like a metronome, this thread just keeps ticking along mindlessly...
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by AlBrown
You're assuming the worst, Al. It really comes down to how you choose to use either one.
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
I prefer the little electronic ones. The clockwork ones are just a wind-up.
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Steve Shaw
have a toke
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
136 comments and I haven't put my oar in yet !
There you go.
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: metronomes and feel
The first time I encountered a metronome, I was nine years old and taking piano lessons with one of my mother's piano teachers. I hated the metronome so much that I tried to throw it out the window. That was my last piano lesson with that particular teacher.
Since then, I have somehow (no I am not sure how I did this) learned how to develop a steady and sure sense of rhythm and timing and pulse.
When I first began participating in a local blues jam, I was having trouble with some of the rhythms of the blues music. One of the semi-retired professional musicians who played piano at these blues jams half-seriously, half jokingly suggested that I think of the rhythms of sex. I tried that and, to my surprise, it actually worked for me. If this means I am beyond professional psychiatric help, I don't care.
Laurence
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: metronomes and feel
Ask him what he recommends for Irish rhythms.
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: metronomes and feel
I think I can see the thrust of your argument here.
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
Well, at least the discussion is getting less monotonous!
# Posted on October 18th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: metronomes and feel
Try as I might, I've never really got to the bottom of metronomes. I just can't work out what makes them tick.
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: metronomes and feel
I agree Steve, and it bothers me. Without that understanding, I don't think I'll be allowed into the metronome clique.
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: metronomes and feel
Here you go Steve:
http://visual.merriam-webster.com/images/arts-architecture/music/musical-accessories/metronome_2.jpg
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by David50
Re: metronomes and feel
I don't even want to be admitted to the "metronome clique". In this case, my attitude towards this is like the man who said he wouldn't join any club which was willing to have him as a member.
When the Irish music sessions started here in 1995, I did ask this semi-retired professional keyboard player if he had any recommendations for Irish music but he wasn't familiar enough with Irish music. He spent too many years in Nashville, Tennessee when he wasn't on the road playing in someone's backup band. Now I can't ask him any more questions because he died of lung cancer in July of last year.
Laurence
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: metronomes and feel
That would look lovely on the mantelpiece, David, as long as it was araldited down.
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by Steve Shaw