I wouldn't be an expert by any stretch of the imagination about regional styles.... and, if I keep up current habits, I don't know if I ever will.
I find that, being lazy most evenings, I opt for learning new tunes on thesession.org. Or worse, if I was at a session and I liked a tune and got the name, I'd go home and learn the version on this site.
Now, before anyone starts, I'm not having a go at thesession.org; I owe most of the tunes in my repertoire to this site. But that's exactly my problem.
By learning from this site, I get lazy and don't travel that bit further to a session and, thus, don't pick up on the little nuances of different players from all over the place.
For all I know, there could be a Dublin city style emerging and I, sitting at home on the outskirts of the city glaring at the ABCs on the session.org, am completely aloof, even though it would be my home turf.
I then wonder if there are more like me who, most nights (though not all the time, I must add!), decide against heading out and thus pick up the generic version of a tune that's haunting them.
If there are more like me, on how much are we missing out? What's going on out there?
The Donegal styles and Sligo styles etc have been documented by this stage, and so should be reasonably safe on record (not that I'd know if there being played around the place, of course!), but what about something newly emerging, which might be ignored because the people creating it are possibly the only ones hearing it.
.... Jaysus, I'd better get away from this computer quick and get out there and catch what's going on
..... Ah, sure, maybe tomorrow!
I hardly think that sharing the dots and MP3s via the internet will kill regional styles, which are very distinctive when you hear them, even though they often share pretty much the same notes when they share the same tunes.
Yes-- we're all helping to blur regional styles, just as radio and TV blur regional dialects. My own take on this is just to go with it and to make the best music you can.
If you have a local session and don't listen to anybody but the people you play with, then in ten years or so you will develop a regional style. Until then, don't listen to Kevin Burke, Glackins, Molloy, Keenan, Noel Hill or anybody who might lead you away from the local setting of tunes.
I've been playing with some local musicians for the past thirty years and some of what we play is local, but not nearly in the same sense as it was local thirty years ago. Things change, for better or worse. You have to try to hang on to some of it but you just cannot hold on to all of it if you want to grow and try new things.
That struck me too. I've said before, that if you consider this web site to be an important resource, then you are under resourced. But to hear it from someone who lives just outside Dublin is a bit odd.
Maybe thesession.org is in itself a new regional style and
regional culture. Instead of meeting at the crossroads near an
Irish village, we meet on computers. Not everybody learns from
this site - they're not living in County Session.Org. I don't think
I have any regional style to learn - where I am everybody plays
differently. In Melbourne and Sydney there might be a few
people trying to imitate Ado Barker but other than that ....
Zen Accomplice: Master, Master, I suddenly had this thought...
Zen Master: [Thrown off his meditation] Yes?
ZA: If I had a donkey, and this donkey cast a shadow, would this shadow belong to me?
ZM: Dear boy, don't you have any bigger problems?
ZA: In fact, I do. If I had an elephant, and this elephant cast a shadow...
ZM: [With a roar, throws himself on his accomplice and batters him to the ground]
Copo says "By learning from this site, I get lazy and don't travel that bit further to a session and, thus, don't pick up on the little nuances of different players from all over the place."
Well I think you've identified your problem and how to solve it.
FWIW, this web site isn't ruining the music, but people who learn their music from the abcs here and then foist it on a session might be.
I've wouldn't be too bothered Copo, I've found that I've learnt versions of tunes here and other places but when I play them with people I regularly play with, I can hear little differences etc. So you tend to adjust - either you adjust to what they play or they adjust to what you play, depending on the where the centre of gravity of the group is and/or who is the dominant force.
"... if you consider this web site to be an important resource, then you are under resourced. But to hear it from someone who lives just outside Dublin is a bit odd."
Sanctimonious crap. I live in Clare. Is it odd that I am here? The sess.org is just one more resource. You can't learn it all from this site but there's a lot about the history of the tunes, different settings, reminders, etc. Like The Amazing Downloader, it has its own value. This site is certainly neither a bible nor an indispensable guide to the tunes. Who says it is?
And why are you here if you're so dismissive of it?
I'm not dismissive of it. I'm here too. I kind of like the place in it's kind of non-functioning madness. And yeah, it's a resource. But that's it. It's just one resource, and not an important one. It's not a bible and it's not indispensable.
All I'm saying is that one's personal measure of its importance to one's self is a measure of how under resourced one is.
I'm not complaining about it. There's people here who really do live in places like central australia and Peru and to them, as they are under resourced, this place is important to them and that's fine. (though a better resource is youtube, obviously).
I live out in the middle of no place here in America. I pretty much learn tunes from records and am damn glad to get that much. You guys actually living in a place with local sessions are lucky. You guys in Ireland, even luckier.
If it wasn't for the mustard board, I'd not have anybody who actually plays this music to ask questions of.
But even still, I'd have to be some sort of nut to just learn a tune from the dots here, but the dots here can still help.
llig, as usual, is right. If all you are relying on is the dots here, then you are not taking advantage of all your options. Even for me there is YouTube and records. So you would be, as he says....under resourced
As long as we're at it, John Chambers site is better than the session in some ways: http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tunefind.
It offers many different versions of tunes in dots and ABCs, in one list, but no commentary.
Randall Bays, an excellent American fiddler, complained to me once that what really gets up his nose is when people assert their authenticity.
Back in the thirties most of the locals had access to 78 records. In the fifties that changed to LPs. Then to cassette tapes in the 80s. In the 90s, CDs. Now we have the net, and too many resources to be ignored. These all blur the local distinctions that seem important to so many people. Just how important is a local tradition? Is that different than a local session? Just *how* local should it be to be considered local?
At least we might be able to re-invent the style of your own region if it has been lost ( those of us who are not from
North Donegal / West Tyrone / Northwest Tyrone,
East Derry / Antrim/ Southwest Tyrone ,
South Donegal / Fermanagh / North Leitrim ,
Sligo,
East Galway,
Clare ?
It is nice to have a web site such as this one for discussions; listing of sessions; links to recordings; and copies of music (dots) which you can read and play through. But none of this can take the place of actually going to a session and playing music with other musicians. You can talk about it all you want in the discussion forums on this web site but nothing can take the place of actually playing the music either by yourself or with other musicians.
'Back in the thirties most of the locals had access to 78 records. In the fifties that changed to LPs.'
Sorry, but you're very wrong on two counts here.
There is no evidence absolutely whatsoever that gramophones were sold widely across Ireland until the 1960s. The cost of such a machine in the 1930s, let alone the price of replacing needles would have been prohibitive to all below well-off status.
The first LPs were issued in the latter years of the 1950s and there were very few of them, such as The Tulla's 'Echoes of Erin' (1958) and 'All Ireland Champions: Violin' (1959).
A far greater influence would have been the radio, but bear in mind that electrification was a very slow process in Ireland. Much of the country, especially the western seaboard counties and the islands of the west coast, was not supplied until the 1940s and the process was only completed in 1958.
TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
I wouldn't be an expert by any stretch of the imagination about regional styles.... and, if I keep up current habits, I don't know if I ever will.
I find that, being lazy most evenings, I opt for learning new tunes on thesession.org. Or worse, if I was at a session and I liked a tune and got the name, I'd go home and learn the version on this site.
Now, before anyone starts, I'm not having a go at thesession.org; I owe most of the tunes in my repertoire to this site. But that's exactly my problem.
By learning from this site, I get lazy and don't travel that bit further to a session and, thus, don't pick up on the little nuances of different players from all over the place.
For all I know, there could be a Dublin city style emerging and I, sitting at home on the outskirts of the city glaring at the ABCs on the session.org, am completely aloof, even though it would be my home turf.
I then wonder if there are more like me who, most nights (though not all the time, I must add!), decide against heading out and thus pick up the generic version of a tune that's haunting them.
If there are more like me, on how much are we missing out? What's going on out there?
The Donegal styles and Sligo styles etc have been documented by this stage, and so should be reasonably safe on record (not that I'd know if there being played around the place, of course!), but what about something newly emerging, which might be ignored because the people creating it are possibly the only ones hearing it.
.... Jaysus, I'd better get away from this computer quick and get out there and catch what's going on
..... Ah, sure, maybe tomorrow!
# Posted on October 11th 2010 by copo24
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
I hardly think that sharing the dots and MP3s via the internet will kill regional styles, which are very distinctive when you hear them, even though they often share pretty much the same notes when they share the same tunes.
# Posted on October 11th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
copo24 -
No worrie's,, with regional styles its not the Note's you play so much,, But the '' Way '' you play them,,,
jim,,,
# Posted on October 11th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
Yes-- we're all helping to blur regional styles, just as radio and TV blur regional dialects. My own take on this is just to go with it and to make the best music you can.
If you have a local session and don't listen to anybody but the people you play with, then in ten years or so you will develop a regional style. Until then, don't listen to Kevin Burke, Glackins, Molloy, Keenan, Noel Hill or anybody who might lead you away from the local setting of tunes.
I've been playing with some local musicians for the past thirty years and some of what we play is local, but not nearly in the same sense as it was local thirty years ago. Things change, for better or worse. You have to try to hang on to some of it but you just cannot hold on to all of it if you want to grow and try new things.
# Posted on October 11th 2010 by David Levine
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
I am absolutely appalled that someone living in or near Dublin is relying on doubtful versions of tunes on an internet site as a source for tunes.
# Posted on October 11th 2010 by DaveL35
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
On reflection, 'appalled' might be too strong. But I'm extremely surprised.
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by DaveL35
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
That struck me too. I've said before, that if you consider this web site to be an important resource, then you are under resourced. But to hear it from someone who lives just outside Dublin is a bit odd.
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by ...
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
Maybe thesession.org is in itself a new regional style and
regional culture. Instead of meeting at the crossroads near an
Irish village, we meet on computers. Not everybody learns from
this site - they're not living in County Session.Org. I don't think
I have any regional style to learn - where I am everybody plays
differently. In Melbourne and Sydney there might be a few
people trying to imitate Ado Barker but other than that ....
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by Hup
Dear Candide ~ copo24
Life is short, go find some.
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
Zen Accomplice: Master, Master, I suddenly had this thought...
Zen Master: [Thrown off his meditation] Yes?
ZA: If I had a donkey, and this donkey cast a shadow, would this shadow belong to me?
ZM: Dear boy, don't you have any bigger problems?
ZA: In fact, I do. If I had an elephant, and this elephant cast a shadow...
ZM: [With a roar, throws himself on his accomplice and batters him to the ground]
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by Janek
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
Copo says "By learning from this site, I get lazy and don't travel that bit further to a session and, thus, don't pick up on the little nuances of different players from all over the place."
Well I think you've identified your problem and how to solve it.
FWIW, this web site isn't ruining the music, but people who learn their music from the abcs here and then foist it on a session might be.
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
I thought there already was a Dublin style emerging. Anyway, there's nothing wrong with being lazy provided you don't mind not achieving much.
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by gam
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
copo24
Are you from Dublin - ????
Do you know friend's of mine Dermi and Tara Diamond they play in the Cobblestone? Bar --
jim,,,
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
I've wouldn't be too bothered Copo, I've found that I've learnt versions of tunes here and other places but when I play them with people I regularly play with, I can hear little differences etc. So you tend to adjust - either you adjust to what they play or they adjust to what you play, depending on the where the centre of gravity of the group is and/or who is the dominant force.
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by the wounded hussar
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
"... if you consider this web site to be an important resource, then you are under resourced. But to hear it from someone who lives just outside Dublin is a bit odd."
Sanctimonious crap. I live in Clare. Is it odd that I am here? The sess.org is just one more resource. You can't learn it all from this site but there's a lot about the history of the tunes, different settings, reminders, etc. Like The Amazing Downloader, it has its own value. This site is certainly neither a bible nor an indispensable guide to the tunes. Who says it is?
And why are you here if you're so dismissive of it?
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by David Levine
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
I'm not dismissive of it. I'm here too. I kind of like the place in it's kind of non-functioning madness. And yeah, it's a resource. But that's it. It's just one resource, and not an important one. It's not a bible and it's not indispensable.
All I'm saying is that one's personal measure of its importance to one's self is a measure of how under resourced one is.
I'm not complaining about it. There's people here who really do live in places like central australia and Peru and to them, as they are under resourced, this place is important to them and that's fine. (though a better resource is youtube, obviously).
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by ...
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
I live out in the middle of no place here in America. I pretty much learn tunes from records and am damn glad to get that much. You guys actually living in a place with local sessions are lucky. You guys in Ireland, even luckier.
If it wasn't for the mustard board, I'd not have anybody who actually plays this music to ask questions of.
But even still, I'd have to be some sort of nut to just learn a tune from the dots here, but the dots here can still help.
llig, as usual, is right. If all you are relying on is the dots here, then you are not taking advantage of all your options. Even for me there is YouTube and records. So you would be, as he says....under resourced
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
As long as we're at it, John Chambers site is better than the session in some ways: http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tunefind.
It offers many different versions of tunes in dots and ABCs, in one list, but no commentary.
Randall Bays, an excellent American fiddler, complained to me once that what really gets up his nose is when people assert their authenticity.
Back in the thirties most of the locals had access to 78 records. In the fifties that changed to LPs. Then to cassette tapes in the 80s. In the 90s, CDs. Now we have the net, and too many resources to be ignored. These all blur the local distinctions that seem important to so many people. Just how important is a local tradition? Is that different than a local session? Just *how* local should it be to be considered local?
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by David Levine
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
We must ensure that only local people come to our local session:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOGAAlHzF4o
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by RichardB
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
"When people assert their authenticity" ?
Kind of like, "Sanctimonious crap. I live in Clare."
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by ...
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
At least we might be able to re-invent the style of your own region if it has been lost ( those of us who are not from
North Donegal / West Tyrone / Northwest Tyrone,
East Derry / Antrim/ Southwest Tyrone ,
South Donegal / Fermanagh / North Leitrim ,
Sligo,
East Galway,
Clare ?
Sliabh Luachra
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by harmonic miner
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
It is nice to have a web site such as this one for discussions; listing of sessions; links to recordings; and copies of music (dots) which you can read and play through. But none of this can take the place of actually going to a session and playing music with other musicians. You can talk about it all you want in the discussion forums on this web site but nothing can take the place of actually playing the music either by yourself or with other musicians.
Laurence
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
I'm on too keen on the idea of County Session.org I think I prefer the idea of Tir Nan Org...
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by Jams_O'Donnell
Re: TheSession.org ruining new 'regional styles'?
'Back in the thirties most of the locals had access to 78 records. In the fifties that changed to LPs.'
Sorry, but you're very wrong on two counts here.
There is no evidence absolutely whatsoever that gramophones were sold widely across Ireland until the 1960s. The cost of such a machine in the 1930s, let alone the price of replacing needles would have been prohibitive to all below well-off status.
The first LPs were issued in the latter years of the 1950s and there were very few of them, such as The Tulla's 'Echoes of Erin' (1958) and 'All Ireland Champions: Violin' (1959).
A far greater influence would have been the radio, but bear in mind that electrification was a very slow process in Ireland. Much of the country, especially the western seaboard counties and the islands of the west coast, was not supplied until the 1940s and the process was only completed in 1958.
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by MacCruiskeen