Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Hi all Im looking for some help with amplifying my mandolin and banjo for gigs in noisy venues. My mandolin has a unique bridge which I don't want to change and most pick ups require changing the bridge (apart from transducer mic which i was advised to buy). I was also advised to purchase a pre amp and pedal like this one
because feed back and noise with be an issue from the idle instrument.
I originally thought I'd get away with just playing into a mic but i was told this would cause loads of problems.
Does anyone have any advice on transducer mics for mandolin and banjo?
Do I need a pre amp or DI box? Are they worth buying?
Does anyone use the A/B pedal or would i have a problem with the idle instrument?
Anyone have any other info on amplifying more than one acoustic instrument for a noisy gig environment?
Can anyone suggest a modal of any of the hardware i mention (I was hoping to spend less than 500 Euro for the 2 pick ups, preamp and possibly A/B pedal if its necessary?
Sorry if this basic stuff but I'm normally use to playing on amplified
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
If you want to go with pickups, you can do no better than K&K, in my experience - that experience is several years out of date at this point, but the K&K is absolutely excellent and reasonably priced, so it's hard to imagine how you'd improve on it. Available for both of your instruments, and I have good reports about the banjo setup (which I haven't tried, myself). The LR Baggs Paracoustic DI is a good, cheap preamp/DI, and yes, they are absolutely worth buying. They condition your signal, so it doesn't degrade between the pickup and the board, they allow you to plug into the snake (the breakout box on the stage leading to the soundboard), and some of them (the Baggs box included) have some volume control and equalization, allowing you to deal with your sound from the stage. This is handy when the soundman is drunk or nonexistent. Depending on how much EQ you need for the two instruments, you can get away with using one box for the two - if they're both pretty flat, it'll work, but if you need to tweak one a lot, the other is unlikely to need the same settings, so you're best having two in that case.
I've used a simple A/B pedal into the Baggs, and it's worked fine, although you have to remember what's live at any given moment.
It's likely that an amplified banjo will feed back on a loud stage. If that happens, it'll likely happen fast and be very annoying.
On the microphone question - if you're playing in bars, pickups are by far easier to deal with than microphones. Microphones take up space on the stage, you have to think about your position relative to the mic, they get knocked over, they feed back, they pick up your unfortunate comments about members of the audience - and the gain in sound quality, for a bar gig, is negligible, especially if you're using decent equipment.
If you're ever called on to do a gig where microphones are called for, you can bet that the house will provide decent sound reinforcement, including microphones and a tech to run the board. When that happens, you can enjoy the privilege - it's a little like having a chauffeur driving you around for the night. Nice but not necessary every day.
Thanks Jon for all sharing this valuable info you've really cleared up a lot of my confusion.
The K&K pick ups look great but I have a circular sound hole and think their pick ups are designed for F hole mandolins, any idea if this would work with my style of mando? http://kksound.com/mandolintwinfusion.html
Have you ever heard of anyone using the L.R. Baggs Radius M Mandolin? Do you know if they're any good?
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
So many variables you haven't told us about - do you play sitting/standing still or wandering about the stage? Are you plugging into a PA system, or just a guitar amplifier?
If you sit/stand still, then a stand mic is far and taway your best bet. Not only can you minimize the risk of feedback, by positioning it with the tail of the mic pointing at the floor monitor if you're using them, but it also gives you a lot of control over the sound without having to twiddle knobs - move nearer or further from the mic to control volume, move sideways to control tone - witht he mic pointing at the soundhole/ centre of the head you'll get a rich, bassy sound. Move a couple of inches so that the mic is pointing about the neck/body joint and you'll get a bright punchy sound that cuts through for soloing. If you go this route you'll probably want an electret condenser mic - they have a flatter response and higher cut-off than dynamic mics, so make mandolin type instruments sound brighter.
But if you move about you are going to have to use either a pickup or instrument mounted mic. Either of these has the potential to give you feedback problems, particularly if you are using floor monitors. If you stand in one position while the engineer rings out the system at the soundcheck, then dance across the stage in the performance, you can be pretty sure your instrument will take off. Choice of pickup/mic has little bearing on the feedback problem, the solution lies elsewhere in the system (mostly in having the stage monitors well EQed and not turned up too loud).
If you go for pickups you'll certainly need a channel EQ in the system somewhere - and if it's a piezo pickup you will need a pre-amp. If you're on a PA you could use a simple DI box or preamp, and trust the sound-man with your sound (usually a bad move - most SEs think everything should sound like a Stratocaster), or you could use a preamp with EQ - as well as the Baggs one already mentioned Fishman do a really nice one, and if you're on a budget Behringer do a 7 band EQ pedal which would do what you need for about £30. If you are on guitar amps, without a mixing desk, then you will certainly need your own EQ.
In reality, there are so many variables in how you perform, the venue, the rest of the sound system etc. that it is really impossible for anyone to advise what will be best for you. If you haven't got a tame sound engineer who can look at your individual circumstances and advise you, then buy a book on live sound engineering before you spend any money on pickups or anything else. Come to that, if you haven't got a sound engineer buy a book anyway - there is a hell of a lot more to it than just buying a pickup and plugging it in, particularly if you want to keep your acoustic sound, and not land up sounding like ABBA.
I'd say ill be doing a bit of standing and a bit of sitting depending on the venue.I will be plugged into a PA system. Im not too excited about being huddled over a mic all night but i do use dynamics when im playing so would a transducer pick up pick up the differences in dynamics by me playing lighter and harder?
Have you ever used a transducer mic? Would they cause as much problems with feedback as a standard pick up or clip on mic.?
Do you think I would have problems with a mic if i was playing in a noisy pub? Would the mic pick up the volume from the audience/drunkin people shouting and singing?
Your ABBA comment has frightened me ..do you think if i had a good transducer pick up with a good preamp going into a pa and had the eq sorted it would sound some what similar to my acoustic instrument.....eh its prob not that simple is it?
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
- A transducer is a device which converts energy from one form to another. Technically, all pickups and microphones (and speakers!) are transducers, converting mechanical energy to electrical, or back.
The term "transducer" is usually used to refer to a device that converts the motion of the soundboard or banjo head to electrical energy, as opposed to an undersaddle pickup, which captures the energy of the strings as it's transmitted to the face of the guitar. I've used both kinds, and the undersaddles are a bit more robust in their feedback resistance but tend to sound pretty artificial - they sound like a generic "acoustic guitar". The K&K sounds like my guitar, but bigger. There are other soundboard transducers, and I'm sure there are many good ones - I don't want to knock the others. The K&K is the one I've used, and the one I've heard others use (some of them after they heard mine!) and it's proven out pretty well.
Transducers generally do a much better job of conveying your dynamics than undersaddle pickups or magnetic pickups.
-For the most part there's no need to match brands of gear. The electrons don't know who made the wires and chips they're flowing through, and sound gear is pretty well standardized, so it's not an issue. There was a pickup some years ago that apparently required its own specialized pre-amp, and wouldn't work with any other, but I never found out what the reason for that was. Probably some peculiar impedance matching is my guess.
- I disagree with Skreech on the sound benefits of mics versus pickups, but not violently so. For me, the lower noise floor and the reduced complication of the pickups more than balance out any gain in sound quality from using a mic, particularly in a bar where people aren't generally listening very closely anyway. However, if you play in quieter bars where people are actually listening, that equation shifts radically.
That being said, your concerns about microphones gathering ambient noise are worth considering. They will pick up the sounds around them, that's what they're for. An omnidirectional mic will get everything around it - this is bad. A directional mic will get a lot less of what's happening behind it, but in most pubs there's enough sound reflection that every live mic on the stage will direct a noticeable amount of ambient sound (ie, crowd noise) out into the room. Of course this leads to a feedback loop, as the audience talks louder to be heard over their own amplified voices, and the band turns up to be heard over the now-nearly-shouting audience.
In the right circumstances, this can lead to a lively night at the pub, but it's also easy for this to become an unholy mess.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Looking at the "twin fusion" pickup, it does look like it might be difficult to install it on an A-style mandolin, but only because the lead might be a little short to allow good placement of the piezo elements. Contact K&K, I'd be willing to bet they can arrange something. Model A mandolins are not so rare that they won't have come across this before.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Ditch the fancy pickups, the fancy EQ's, the preamps, etc. Just go with a mic. A Shure SM57 will work just fine. It's not a condenser so it doesn't require phantom power nor is it prone to feedback (unless you've got it pointing at a monitor), and it's rugged as hell.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
First thing to understand is the difference between a pickup and a microphone, they are fundamentally different things. A microphone picks up soundwaves in the air, just the same as your ear does. So what you get from a mic is pretty much what you hear from the instrument, and if you want to preserve your acoustic sound that is the way to go. But a pickup is a transducer that picks up vibrations directly from the strings, bridge or wood of the instrument, which is not the same as picking up sound. The pickup gives you a good strong signal, and more gain before feedback than a mic. You can use EQ, compression and other bits of electronics to shape that signal and make it sound good, but it is virtually impossible to make it sound exactly like the acoustic instrument. A pickup cannot be made to sound exactly like an acoustic instrument, just as an electric guitar cannot be made to sound like like an acoustic.
A lot of people make the choice based on price - pickups are generally cheaper than instrument fitted mikes (and often a bit less cumbersome). But the choice ought to be made in consideration of how you are going to use it - if you are essentially an acoustic band, and the PA is just to give a bit of gentle reinforcement to raise you above the noise floor, then a mic is what you want. But if you are going to play at rock band levels, then you'll probably be forced into using a pickup to avoid feedback.
Both microphone and pickup will reproduce the dynamics of you playing louder ands softer, but there are other problems in that area - if the pub is noisy, and you turn the volume up enough that people can hear the quiet bits, then the loud bits will be too loud. And mandolin and banjo both have very big transients when the pick hits the string - even when the average sound level is quite modest those transients can be big enough to overload the amp and distort. Both these problems are overcome by using compression, which limits the dynamic range, but in a subtle way that no one will notice if it is done properly.
When it comes to feedback there are two possible causes to consider: With an instrument mounted microphone the mic might pick up sound directly from a speaker to cause feedback. At low amplification levels this isn't generally a problem - because the mic is mounted very close to the instrument its gain can be turned down, making it less sensitive to other sounds. Generally speaking mic feedback is no more of a problem to instrument mics than it is to voice mics.
The second form of feedback is when the instrument itself picks up the sound from a speaker, and vibrates in sympathy. This affects instruments equally whether they are miked or have pickups. The difference is that with a pickup you can do something about it - tape up the sound hole, stuff the instrument with socks, or do something else to make it less resonant. This normally has minimal effect on the sound of a pickup, but you can't do it with a microphone - if you stop the instrument making a sound then there is nothing for the mic to hear.
So generally at low amplification levels there is nothing to choose between mic and pickup from the feedback point of view, but at high levels you need a pickup.
If you do have feedback problems and low to medium sound levels, remember that feedback is caused by a loop - you can break the loop anywhere to kill the feedback, and the pickup/mic isn't usually the best place to do it. The first place to go for is the speakers - make sure that no speaker is pointing at the instrument, and keep the sound level on stage as low as possible - make sure the front of house speakers don't bleed onto the stage, and EQ the monitors so that you can hear yourselves clearly without having the volume right up. The other place to kill feedback is at the desk - use the EQ to cut the spot frequencies where feedback is occuring.
With regard to background noise and instrument mics, it isn't normally a problem - because the mic is so close to the instrument it can have the gain turned down so that it is very insensitive to noise from further away, and instrument mics are normallly cardioid (directional) so if they are pointing towards the front of the instrument they have their least sensitive end pointing towards the audience and the monitor speakers. The only danger is if you turn round on stage and sudenly point the mic at a monitor speaker. And avoid the temptation to hide the banjo mike inside the rim, pointing at the back of the head - if you do that it is probably also going to point at a monitor.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Jimmy - when you've had to step through a forest of mic stands on a postage-stamp stage in order to get to the mixing board to pull out that mysterious ring that's in one of the eight SM57s on the stage, but you can't figure out which one, you might reconsider whether microphones are simple. Live mics on stage are always problematic in loud rooms, and as you increase the number of mics, your problems tend to increase as an exponential function, not a linear one. The fewer mics on your stage, the better, is a good rule, unless you're in a concert hall.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
@ Jon Kiparsky:
"There was a pickup some years ago that apparently required its own specialized pre-amp, and wouldn't work with any other, but I never found out what the reason for that was. Probably some peculiar impedance matching is my guess."
Dedicated preamps are quite common with instrument mic systems these days - many instrument mics nowadays use miniature electret condenser capsules, which include a small preamp in the capsule because the raw output is too small to send down the cable. So they need phantom power - but not the standard 48v from the desk, typically they take either 4 or 9v, which the dedicated preamp provides.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
No, you're right: if it was undersaddle it would be a piezo transducer, which has a very, very high impedence, and needs a special pre-amp (they will drive a 600R preamp, but sound awful). But probably any manufacturers piezo preamp would have done.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Jon -
I have dealt with that, in electric rock bands with lots of amplification going on. In the three-piece acoustic group I played with, however, we used nothing but mics (SM57's on the instruments) and had no problems. Perhaps I shouldn't assume the OP has a similar situation, but it seems likely if he's never used amplification before.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Anyone else's undersaddle is fine with any piezo preamp, but this one was special, apparently. It was the B-Band, as I recall, and it got a lot of great reviews, but I never got around to trying it. The manufacturer claims that their preamp is required, and that others won't work with it. Don't know if this is smoke or fact, but they don't say why it is, and I've never looked into it enough to find out.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Jimmy - In ideal circumstances, you noise problems will be minimal. However, if the room is particularly live or particularly loud, or even oddly-shaped, you can get some troubles, and they're very hard to diagnose - especially when you've sound-checked to an empty room, and the ambient noise goes up as your audience comes in and gets riled up.
I've done gigs with mics and I've done gigs with pickups, and I can tell you that I've never done a gig with a pickup and wished I was using a mic, but the reverse has happened many times.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
I'm not doubting you at all. I have some pro-audio experience, but I would imagine you have more. I'm just relating my experience. I've played in a number of scenarios, and once I used a pickup and didn't like the sound result. I'm a mic snob, to be sure.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
The mic v pickup thing is always contentious - the choice for any individual depends on where they personally draw the line between sound quality and convenience.
Probably the best advice to Irish Mandolin would be to get on youtube and find some videos of bands he wants to sound like playing live, then look to see what they are using.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
I use a Boss LS-2 line selector. I plug in my mando, banjo, and guitar and can easily switch between them. The switch acts as a pre-amp on the A and B inputs and my guitar already has a pre-amp. It's lets me adjust the banjo and mandolin so I get the same volume for all instruments.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
I had all sorts of pick ups and in the end bought an Ozark electric mandolin, wonderful sound.
Cost less than 200 euros. A friend who owned a hand made mandolin, cost about £1,500 decided to buy one as well after borrowing mine quite a few times.
Has anyone used an external transducer like the Baggs? Is there much of a difference in sound quality between the external pick up that sits on the outside of the body and an internal transducer pick up like the K & K pick up thats fitted inside?
Some people suggested the boss ls2 line splitter would this do as my preamp or should I buy a preamp too?
MagRoibin I was looking at that 2 chan preamp before but im not sure if i could use an A B line splitter with it cause there's only one out ..so if i had a pick up in the mando and banjo going into the 2 dif chan on the preamp the splitter wouldnt work or is there another way of setting it up?
Can anyone suggest a dual chan pedal preamp with the A B chan function?
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
The problem with your idea of a A B dual channel pedal preamp thing is that you are going to give the PA two very different instruments down one line. This is a real headache for a the PA geezer. This means he (it's always a he) has gotta re eq the the channel every time you swap. Or rather, he should re eq the channel every time you swap, but in practice, he ain't gonna. It's a non starter.
Ideally, you give the PA two lines and the bloke on the fold back mix will kill each instrument when you put it down. And if you are doing a gig with this level of PA, then you won't have any problems. And you won't even need a pre-amp because the quality of the PA gear will easily be able to cope with the signal that comes straight from your pick ups. Good desks have good pre-amps on every input.
But I doubt you are at that stage (pun intended) or you wouldn't be asking such a basic question. (I'm not being facetious or trying to put you down, we all start somewhere.)
However, there is the perfect compromise which you should consider. Get yourself a really robust two channel combo amp thing. A really loud one, 250 watts at least. The advantages are numerous, I'll list them:
1. You are in control of the sound. Good two channel combos have really good parametric eqs that sort feed back out easily and after a bit of practice/gigs, you'll have the sound you want from each instrument nailed. Turn up, plug in, turn it up, ta da.
2. Mostly, you won't need the PA at all. Just like the lead guitar player in the pub rock band, you are self contained. The only problem you'll have is your band mates telling you to turn it down.
3. If the venue is a bit bigger and there is a half decent PA, they simply dangle a mike over the combo. PA guys are used to doing this, they do it all the time with lead guitar players. All they are doing is amplifying the sound you know is already what you want. It's a doddle for them, they can get p*ssed and do nothing. And you are still in control.
4. If the venue is a lot bigger and the PA is a pretty good out front PA but the fold back just comes from a feed from the main desk, you don't have to rely on that really irritating thing where you have to keep asking for "more/less me through the monitors please". Because you have your own dedicated monitor. It's really useful in such a situation to ask for a mix of everyone else in the band though the PA's monitor and yet still hear just yourself through your combo. And cocking your head towards each, depend on what you want, when you want.
5. And if you have a proper PA with a dedicated fold back desk at the side of the stage, and you are finally at a stage and on a stage where you are no longer in need of your beloved, and by now bashed up, combo, it will still perform the important function of making the stage look more rock and roll. (you'll need this, it will be a big stage)
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Michael - one point of correction: mixing boards often have decent preamps, but usually only on the XLR inputs, the line level inputs are assumed to be conditioned coming in. Your signal out of the pickup is line level, so it'll bypass the board's preamps. Also, you want the preamp to come as close to the pickup as possible, to boost the signal above the noise added by travel through the wire. If you send the signal out to the house soundboard, it'll be pretty corroded by the time it gets amplified, so you'll be amplifying a lot of line noise along with your signal.
Preamps are pretty much always a solid bet when you're sending pickup signal to anything but your big loud combo amp.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Yeah, you're right. But the PAs I worked with all had their own DI boxes for line level signals with XLR outputs.
However, that's where the advice to get the combo stands. It cuts out the need for all these extra wires. It simplifies it for you until you are at a stage where where dedicated professionals will take care of it for you.
And even if you have dedicated professionals, it's sometimes much easier to say to them, just stick a mike in front of that combo. Especially in a festival situation where you might not have a sound check.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
I guess it depends a lot on what sort of venues you play, and what sort of sound systems you typically run into. I've got a little Gallien-Krueger for situations like what you're describing, which might be the best of both worlds: It's tiny (about the size of a cinder block), loud (LOUD), and it has an XLR out that will feed the PA, so you don't have to mic it. That's pretty swell. And there's an absolutely terrible chorus effect, for comedic purposes.
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Yep, they are good those little Gallien-Krueger things. I find them a bit toppy sometimes but still really punchy, but that might be perfect for a mandolin and a banjo. Can you get them with two inputs with two seperate eqs? (he won't need the chorus, his out of tune mandolin pairs will supply that).
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Hey thanks for all replies
@llig leahcim and Jon Kiparsky...cheers for the long reply..and by the way iv been playing Irish music for over ten years and have a hons degree in music usually.. when I play in sessions we use no amplification as you'd expect..and when playing in a concert scenario I use a mic with the sound done by a sound engineer. I just haven't bought any equipment for playing in pubs or loud venues...and by the way my mando wont be out of tune when I'm playing!
Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Hi all Im looking for some help with amplifying my mandolin and banjo for gigs in noisy venues. My mandolin has a unique bridge which I don't want to change and most pick ups require changing the bridge (apart from transducer mic which i was advised to buy). I was also advised to purchase a pre amp and pedal like this one
http://www.zzounds.com/item--WHRSELECTOR
because feed back and noise with be an issue from the idle instrument.
I originally thought I'd get away with just playing into a mic but i was told this would cause loads of problems.
Does anyone have any advice on transducer mics for mandolin and banjo?
Do I need a pre amp or DI box? Are they worth buying?
Does anyone use the A/B pedal or would i have a problem with the idle instrument?
Anyone have any other info on amplifying more than one acoustic instrument for a noisy gig environment?
Can anyone suggest a modal of any of the hardware i mention (I was hoping to spend less than 500 Euro for the 2 pick ups, preamp and possibly A/B pedal if its necessary?
Sorry if this basic stuff but I'm normally use to playing on amplified
Thanks for any help
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by Irish Mandolin
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
If you want to go with pickups, you can do no better than K&K, in my experience - that experience is several years out of date at this point, but the K&K is absolutely excellent and reasonably priced, so it's hard to imagine how you'd improve on it. Available for both of your instruments, and I have good reports about the banjo setup (which I haven't tried, myself). The LR Baggs Paracoustic DI is a good, cheap preamp/DI, and yes, they are absolutely worth buying. They condition your signal, so it doesn't degrade between the pickup and the board, they allow you to plug into the snake (the breakout box on the stage leading to the soundboard), and some of them (the Baggs box included) have some volume control and equalization, allowing you to deal with your sound from the stage. This is handy when the soundman is drunk or nonexistent. Depending on how much EQ you need for the two instruments, you can get away with using one box for the two - if they're both pretty flat, it'll work, but if you need to tweak one a lot, the other is unlikely to need the same settings, so you're best having two in that case.
I've used a simple A/B pedal into the Baggs, and it's worked fine, although you have to remember what's live at any given moment.
It's likely that an amplified banjo will feed back on a loud stage. If that happens, it'll likely happen fast and be very annoying.
On the microphone question - if you're playing in bars, pickups are by far easier to deal with than microphones. Microphones take up space on the stage, you have to think about your position relative to the mic, they get knocked over, they feed back, they pick up your unfortunate comments about members of the audience - and the gain in sound quality, for a bar gig, is negligible, especially if you're using decent equipment.
If you're ever called on to do a gig where microphones are called for, you can bet that the house will provide decent sound reinforcement, including microphones and a tech to run the board. When that happens, you can enjoy the privilege - it's a little like having a chauffeur driving you around for the night. Nice but not necessary every day.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE REPLY
Thanks Jon for all sharing this valuable info you've really cleared up a lot of my confusion.
The K&K pick ups look great but I have a circular sound hole and think their pick ups are designed for F hole mandolins, any idea if this would work with my style of mando?
http://kksound.com/mandolintwinfusion.html
Have you ever heard of anyone using the L.R. Baggs Radius M Mandolin? Do you know if they're any good?
http://www.themandolinstore.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idProduct=8424
Is it perfectly ok to buy a mix of brands of equipment or is it advised if you get a K&K pick up you get a K&K preamp and K&K A/B Box?
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by Irish Mandolin
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
So many variables you haven't told us about - do you play sitting/standing still or wandering about the stage? Are you plugging into a PA system, or just a guitar amplifier?
If you sit/stand still, then a stand mic is far and taway your best bet. Not only can you minimize the risk of feedback, by positioning it with the tail of the mic pointing at the floor monitor if you're using them, but it also gives you a lot of control over the sound without having to twiddle knobs - move nearer or further from the mic to control volume, move sideways to control tone - witht he mic pointing at the soundhole/ centre of the head you'll get a rich, bassy sound. Move a couple of inches so that the mic is pointing about the neck/body joint and you'll get a bright punchy sound that cuts through for soloing. If you go this route you'll probably want an electret condenser mic - they have a flatter response and higher cut-off than dynamic mics, so make mandolin type instruments sound brighter.
But if you move about you are going to have to use either a pickup or instrument mounted mic. Either of these has the potential to give you feedback problems, particularly if you are using floor monitors. If you stand in one position while the engineer rings out the system at the soundcheck, then dance across the stage in the performance, you can be pretty sure your instrument will take off. Choice of pickup/mic has little bearing on the feedback problem, the solution lies elsewhere in the system (mostly in having the stage monitors well EQed and not turned up too loud).
If you go for pickups you'll certainly need a channel EQ in the system somewhere - and if it's a piezo pickup you will need a pre-amp. If you're on a PA you could use a simple DI box or preamp, and trust the sound-man with your sound (usually a bad move - most SEs think everything should sound like a Stratocaster), or you could use a preamp with EQ - as well as the Baggs one already mentioned Fishman do a really nice one, and if you're on a budget Behringer do a 7 band EQ pedal which would do what you need for about £30. If you are on guitar amps, without a mixing desk, then you will certainly need your own EQ.
In reality, there are so many variables in how you perform, the venue, the rest of the sound system etc. that it is really impossible for anyone to advise what will be best for you. If you haven't got a tame sound engineer who can look at your individual circumstances and advise you, then buy a book on live sound engineering before you spend any money on pickups or anything else. Come to that, if you haven't got a sound engineer buy a book anyway - there is a hell of a lot more to it than just buying a pickup and plugging it in, particularly if you want to keep your acoustic sound, and not land up sounding like ABBA.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by skreech
Thanks skreech for the reply
I'd say ill be doing a bit of standing and a bit of sitting depending on the venue.I will be plugged into a PA system. Im not too excited about being huddled over a mic all night but i do use dynamics when im playing so would a transducer pick up pick up the differences in dynamics by me playing lighter and harder?
Have you ever used a transducer mic? Would they cause as much problems with feedback as a standard pick up or clip on mic.?
Do you think I would have problems with a mic if i was playing in a noisy pub? Would the mic pick up the volume from the audience/drunkin people shouting and singing?
Your ABBA comment has frightened me ..do you think if i had a good transducer pick up with a good preamp going into a pa and had the eq sorted it would sound some what similar to my acoustic instrument.....eh its prob not that simple is it?
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by Irish Mandolin
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
- A transducer is a device which converts energy from one form to another. Technically, all pickups and microphones (and speakers!) are transducers, converting mechanical energy to electrical, or back.
The term "transducer" is usually used to refer to a device that converts the motion of the soundboard or banjo head to electrical energy, as opposed to an undersaddle pickup, which captures the energy of the strings as it's transmitted to the face of the guitar. I've used both kinds, and the undersaddles are a bit more robust in their feedback resistance but tend to sound pretty artificial - they sound like a generic "acoustic guitar". The K&K sounds like my guitar, but bigger. There are other soundboard transducers, and I'm sure there are many good ones - I don't want to knock the others. The K&K is the one I've used, and the one I've heard others use (some of them after they heard mine!) and it's proven out pretty well.
Transducers generally do a much better job of conveying your dynamics than undersaddle pickups or magnetic pickups.
-For the most part there's no need to match brands of gear. The electrons don't know who made the wires and chips they're flowing through, and sound gear is pretty well standardized, so it's not an issue. There was a pickup some years ago that apparently required its own specialized pre-amp, and wouldn't work with any other, but I never found out what the reason for that was. Probably some peculiar impedance matching is my guess.
- I disagree with Skreech on the sound benefits of mics versus pickups, but not violently so. For me, the lower noise floor and the reduced complication of the pickups more than balance out any gain in sound quality from using a mic, particularly in a bar where people aren't generally listening very closely anyway. However, if you play in quieter bars where people are actually listening, that equation shifts radically.
That being said, your concerns about microphones gathering ambient noise are worth considering. They will pick up the sounds around them, that's what they're for. An omnidirectional mic will get everything around it - this is bad. A directional mic will get a lot less of what's happening behind it, but in most pubs there's enough sound reflection that every live mic on the stage will direct a noticeable amount of ambient sound (ie, crowd noise) out into the room. Of course this leads to a feedback loop, as the audience talks louder to be heard over their own amplified voices, and the band turns up to be heard over the now-nearly-shouting audience.
In the right circumstances, this can lead to a lively night at the pub, but it's also easy for this to become an unholy mess.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Looking at the "twin fusion" pickup, it does look like it might be difficult to install it on an A-style mandolin, but only because the lead might be a little short to allow good placement of the piezo elements. Contact K&K, I'd be willing to bet they can arrange something. Model A mandolins are not so rare that they won't have come across this before.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Ditch the fancy pickups, the fancy EQ's, the preamps, etc. Just go with a mic. A Shure SM57 will work just fine. It's not a condenser so it doesn't require phantom power nor is it prone to feedback (unless you've got it pointing at a monitor), and it's rugged as hell.
Why make life complicated?
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
First thing to understand is the difference between a pickup and a microphone, they are fundamentally different things. A microphone picks up soundwaves in the air, just the same as your ear does. So what you get from a mic is pretty much what you hear from the instrument, and if you want to preserve your acoustic sound that is the way to go. But a pickup is a transducer that picks up vibrations directly from the strings, bridge or wood of the instrument, which is not the same as picking up sound. The pickup gives you a good strong signal, and more gain before feedback than a mic. You can use EQ, compression and other bits of electronics to shape that signal and make it sound good, but it is virtually impossible to make it sound exactly like the acoustic instrument. A pickup cannot be made to sound exactly like an acoustic instrument, just as an electric guitar cannot be made to sound like like an acoustic.
A lot of people make the choice based on price - pickups are generally cheaper than instrument fitted mikes (and often a bit less cumbersome). But the choice ought to be made in consideration of how you are going to use it - if you are essentially an acoustic band, and the PA is just to give a bit of gentle reinforcement to raise you above the noise floor, then a mic is what you want. But if you are going to play at rock band levels, then you'll probably be forced into using a pickup to avoid feedback.
Both microphone and pickup will reproduce the dynamics of you playing louder ands softer, but there are other problems in that area - if the pub is noisy, and you turn the volume up enough that people can hear the quiet bits, then the loud bits will be too loud. And mandolin and banjo both have very big transients when the pick hits the string - even when the average sound level is quite modest those transients can be big enough to overload the amp and distort. Both these problems are overcome by using compression, which limits the dynamic range, but in a subtle way that no one will notice if it is done properly.
When it comes to feedback there are two possible causes to consider: With an instrument mounted microphone the mic might pick up sound directly from a speaker to cause feedback. At low amplification levels this isn't generally a problem - because the mic is mounted very close to the instrument its gain can be turned down, making it less sensitive to other sounds. Generally speaking mic feedback is no more of a problem to instrument mics than it is to voice mics.
The second form of feedback is when the instrument itself picks up the sound from a speaker, and vibrates in sympathy. This affects instruments equally whether they are miked or have pickups. The difference is that with a pickup you can do something about it - tape up the sound hole, stuff the instrument with socks, or do something else to make it less resonant. This normally has minimal effect on the sound of a pickup, but you can't do it with a microphone - if you stop the instrument making a sound then there is nothing for the mic to hear.
So generally at low amplification levels there is nothing to choose between mic and pickup from the feedback point of view, but at high levels you need a pickup.
If you do have feedback problems and low to medium sound levels, remember that feedback is caused by a loop - you can break the loop anywhere to kill the feedback, and the pickup/mic isn't usually the best place to do it. The first place to go for is the speakers - make sure that no speaker is pointing at the instrument, and keep the sound level on stage as low as possible - make sure the front of house speakers don't bleed onto the stage, and EQ the monitors so that you can hear yourselves clearly without having the volume right up. The other place to kill feedback is at the desk - use the EQ to cut the spot frequencies where feedback is occuring.
With regard to background noise and instrument mics, it isn't normally a problem - because the mic is so close to the instrument it can have the gain turned down so that it is very insensitive to noise from further away, and instrument mics are normallly cardioid (directional) so if they are pointing towards the front of the instrument they have their least sensitive end pointing towards the audience and the monitor speakers. The only danger is if you turn round on stage and sudenly point the mic at a monitor speaker. And avoid the temptation to hide the banjo mike inside the rim, pointing at the back of the head - if you do that it is probably also going to point at a monitor.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by skreech
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Jimmy - when you've had to step through a forest of mic stands on a postage-stamp stage in order to get to the mixing board to pull out that mysterious ring that's in one of the eight SM57s on the stage, but you can't figure out which one, you might reconsider whether microphones are simple. Live mics on stage are always problematic in loud rooms, and as you increase the number of mics, your problems tend to increase as an exponential function, not a linear one. The fewer mics on your stage, the better, is a good rule, unless you're in a concert hall.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
@ Jon Kiparsky:
"There was a pickup some years ago that apparently required its own specialized pre-amp, and wouldn't work with any other, but I never found out what the reason for that was. Probably some peculiar impedance matching is my guess."
Dedicated preamps are quite common with instrument mic systems these days - many instrument mics nowadays use miniature electret condenser capsules, which include a small preamp in the capsule because the raw output is too small to send down the cable. So they need phantom power - but not the standard 48v from the desk, typically they take either 4 or 9v, which the dedicated preamp provides.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by skreech
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
This was an undersaddle pickup, not an internal mic, but I think you might be right, that it required a peculiar flavor of phantom power.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
No, you're right: if it was undersaddle it would be a piezo transducer, which has a very, very high impedence, and needs a special pre-amp (they will drive a 600R preamp, but sound awful). But probably any manufacturers piezo preamp would have done.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by skreech
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Jon -
I have dealt with that, in electric rock bands with lots of amplification going on. In the three-piece acoustic group I played with, however, we used nothing but mics (SM57's on the instruments) and had no problems. Perhaps I shouldn't assume the OP has a similar situation, but it seems likely if he's never used amplification before.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Anyone else's undersaddle is fine with any piezo preamp, but this one was special, apparently. It was the B-Band, as I recall, and it got a lot of great reviews, but I never got around to trying it. The manufacturer claims that their preamp is required, and that others won't work with it. Don't know if this is smoke or fact, but they don't say why it is, and I've never looked into it enough to find out.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Jimmy - In ideal circumstances, you noise problems will be minimal. However, if the room is particularly live or particularly loud, or even oddly-shaped, you can get some troubles, and they're very hard to diagnose - especially when you've sound-checked to an empty room, and the ambient noise goes up as your audience comes in and gets riled up.
I've done gigs with mics and I've done gigs with pickups, and I can tell you that I've never done a gig with a pickup and wished I was using a mic, but the reverse has happened many times.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
I'm not doubting you at all. I have some pro-audio experience, but I would imagine you have more. I'm just relating my experience. I've played in a number of scenarios, and once I used a pickup and didn't like the sound result. I'm a mic snob, to be sure.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
I have the B-Band system and the guitar sounds very good with it....The 'bradivarius 'is a bridge system for fiddle I have but its till not set up.
I like this kind of thing for simplicity and control, but a mic as well is probably a good idea to fill it out if possible.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
The mic v pickup thing is always contentious - the choice for any individual depends on where they personally draw the line between sound quality and convenience.
Probably the best advice to Irish Mandolin would be to get on youtube and find some videos of bands he wants to sound like playing live, then look to see what they are using.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by skreech
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
I use a Boss LS-2 line selector. I plug in my mando, banjo, and guitar and can easily switch between them. The switch acts as a pre-amp on the A and B inputs and my guitar already has a pre-amp. It's lets me adjust the banjo and mandolin so I get the same volume for all instruments.
# Posted on October 8th 2010 by CleverName
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
I had all sorts of pick ups and in the end bought an Ozark electric mandolin, wonderful sound.
Cost less than 200 euros. A friend who owned a hand made mandolin, cost about £1,500 decided to buy one as well after borrowing mine quite a few times.
Just shove in the lead and away you go.
# Posted on October 9th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Once you've decided on a pickup, this looks like a good pre-amp/di combination - and its made specifically for 2 instruments.
http://www.ultrasoundamps.com/image-viewer-dimax.html
I currently use the single channel version for my fiddle but am looking into this for a fiddle/mando combination as well.
# Posted on October 9th 2010 by MagRoibin
Thanks again for all the replies some great help
Thanks again for all the replies some great help here as usual
I think I'm going to go with the L.R. Baggs Radius M Mandolin
http://www.themandolinstore.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idProduct=8424
Has anyone used an external transducer like the Baggs? Is there much of a difference in sound quality between the external pick up that sits on the outside of the body and an internal transducer pick up like the K & K pick up thats fitted inside?
Some people suggested the boss ls2 line splitter would this do as my preamp or should I buy a preamp too?
MagRoibin I was looking at that 2 chan preamp before but im not sure if i could use an A B line splitter with it cause there's only one out ..so if i had a pick up in the mando and banjo going into the 2 dif chan on the preamp the splitter wouldnt work or is there another way of setting it up?
Can anyone suggest a dual chan pedal preamp with the A B chan function?
# Posted on October 10th 2010 by Irish Mandolin
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
The problem with your idea of a A B dual channel pedal preamp thing is that you are going to give the PA two very different instruments down one line. This is a real headache for a the PA geezer. This means he (it's always a he) has gotta re eq the the channel every time you swap. Or rather, he should re eq the channel every time you swap, but in practice, he ain't gonna. It's a non starter.
Ideally, you give the PA two lines and the bloke on the fold back mix will kill each instrument when you put it down. And if you are doing a gig with this level of PA, then you won't have any problems. And you won't even need a pre-amp because the quality of the PA gear will easily be able to cope with the signal that comes straight from your pick ups. Good desks have good pre-amps on every input.
But I doubt you are at that stage (pun intended) or you wouldn't be asking such a basic question. (I'm not being facetious or trying to put you down, we all start somewhere.)
However, there is the perfect compromise which you should consider. Get yourself a really robust two channel combo amp thing. A really loud one, 250 watts at least. The advantages are numerous, I'll list them:
1. You are in control of the sound. Good two channel combos have really good parametric eqs that sort feed back out easily and after a bit of practice/gigs, you'll have the sound you want from each instrument nailed. Turn up, plug in, turn it up, ta da.
2. Mostly, you won't need the PA at all. Just like the lead guitar player in the pub rock band, you are self contained. The only problem you'll have is your band mates telling you to turn it down.
3. If the venue is a bit bigger and there is a half decent PA, they simply dangle a mike over the combo. PA guys are used to doing this, they do it all the time with lead guitar players. All they are doing is amplifying the sound you know is already what you want. It's a doddle for them, they can get p*ssed and do nothing. And you are still in control.
4. If the venue is a lot bigger and the PA is a pretty good out front PA but the fold back just comes from a feed from the main desk, you don't have to rely on that really irritating thing where you have to keep asking for "more/less me through the monitors please". Because you have your own dedicated monitor. It's really useful in such a situation to ask for a mix of everyone else in the band though the PA's monitor and yet still hear just yourself through your combo. And cocking your head towards each, depend on what you want, when you want.
5. And if you have a proper PA with a dedicated fold back desk at the side of the stage, and you are finally at a stage and on a stage where you are no longer in need of your beloved, and by now bashed up, combo, it will still perform the important function of making the stage look more rock and roll. (you'll need this, it will be a big stage)
# Posted on October 10th 2010 by ...
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Oh yeah, I forgot to say ... stack it up on beer crates. Don't sit it on the floor.
# Posted on October 10th 2010 by ...
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Michael - one point of correction: mixing boards often have decent preamps, but usually only on the XLR inputs, the line level inputs are assumed to be conditioned coming in. Your signal out of the pickup is line level, so it'll bypass the board's preamps. Also, you want the preamp to come as close to the pickup as possible, to boost the signal above the noise added by travel through the wire. If you send the signal out to the house soundboard, it'll be pretty corroded by the time it gets amplified, so you'll be amplifying a lot of line noise along with your signal.
Preamps are pretty much always a solid bet when you're sending pickup signal to anything but your big loud combo amp.
# Posted on October 11th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Yeah, you're right. But the PAs I worked with all had their own DI boxes for line level signals with XLR outputs.
However, that's where the advice to get the combo stands. It cuts out the need for all these extra wires. It simplifies it for you until you are at a stage where where dedicated professionals will take care of it for you.
And even if you have dedicated professionals, it's sometimes much easier to say to them, just stick a mike in front of that combo. Especially in a festival situation where you might not have a sound check.
# Posted on October 11th 2010 by ...
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
I guess it depends a lot on what sort of venues you play, and what sort of sound systems you typically run into. I've got a little Gallien-Krueger for situations like what you're describing, which might be the best of both worlds: It's tiny (about the size of a cinder block), loud (LOUD), and it has an XLR out that will feed the PA, so you don't have to mic it. That's pretty swell. And there's an absolutely terrible chorus effect, for comedic purposes.
# Posted on October 11th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Yep, they are good those little Gallien-Krueger things. I find them a bit toppy sometimes but still really punchy, but that might be perfect for a mandolin and a banjo. Can you get them with two inputs with two seperate eqs? (he won't need the chorus, his out of tune mandolin pairs will supply that).
# Posted on October 11th 2010 by ...
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Don't know about the two inputs, but I wouldn't be surprised. G-K seems to have some clever folks.
>(he won't need the chorus, his out of tune mandolin pairs will supply that).
Oh, come on. They might not be out of tune when he starts playing...
# Posted on October 11th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Depends if he tunes up with the amp turned up
# Posted on October 11th 2010 by ...
Re: Need help with amplifying two instruments on stage
Hey thanks for all replies
@llig leahcim and Jon Kiparsky...cheers for the long reply..and by the way iv been playing Irish music for over ten years and have a hons degree in music usually.. when I play in sessions we use no amplification as you'd expect..and when playing in a concert scenario I use a mic with the sound done by a sound engineer. I just haven't bought any equipment for playing in pubs or loud venues...and by the way my mando wont be out of tune when I'm playing!
"his out of tune mandolin pairs will supply that"
# Posted on October 12th 2010 by Irish Mandolin