Hi Folks
6 Weeks in to learning concertina, after 20 years of Irish flute playing. I am working on rolls with a metronome.
Rolls on B & A are satisfactory ( getting up to speed ) , but how do people play a roll on G ? I'm trying to do these ornaments' notes in the same direction , doesn't seem to be possible always.
Playing ( push G on the G Row ) "G-a-G-f#-G" , where the lower case letters are the cut & tap, breaks up the flow as I have to change direction twice ?
How do you "tap" the G roll ( play the lower grace note )
Thanks
pat
you can't do it all on the press. All part of the charm of push-pull instruments.
6 weeks in is very early to worry about this. For what its worth, my advice is forget the rolls for now and just concentrate on developing your technique, expanding your repetoire and getting a good pulse into the tune
In the classes I've had (Edel Fox & Caitlin NicGabhann) where we learned rolls, they were four notes, not the five that are typical on other instruments.
I'd have to check my notes for the others, but for rolls on C through A on the C row left side, use the first two fingers on the first two buttons on the C row right side, no change of bellows direction:
C{ec}C
D{fd}D
E{ec}E
F{fd}F
G{ec}G
A{fd}A
where the notes in braces are short.
Some of these can be used with the main note coming from the G row left side. For a few, you'd use the first two buttons on the G row, and for a few you'd use the second two button on the C row for the notes in braces.
For a d roll using the d on the left in the key of D, roll using the e on the 2nd button 2nd finger C row on the right, and the push c# with the first finger (whichever button it is on your layout).
Oh, and I just remembered something that Claire Keville showed me several years ago, that I don't think Edel or Caitlin said. That is to hold the first note until just before you need to play it a second time, while you're playing the two short notes. That can make it sound more like five notes.
it sounds as if you are asking how to do what is often dubbed a "five-note-fiddle roll," a la fiddlers or b/c accordion players who play in the roll style of joe burke, the late paddy o'brien, etc. namely, the note, a cut with the upper neighbor note, the note again, a second cut, this time with the lower neighbor note, then the original note again.
this is not the principal way of rolling in irish concertina. not to say it's "never" done, but it isn't the principal way.
why? one reason is, because you need to do these five-note rolls all in one direction, and anglo concertina isn't laid out so that you have the right five notes all in one direction, at least, in many cases.
there are spots where you CAN do classic five-note-fiddle-rolls on anglo concertina, but they're few. i'm pretty sure like, one, can be heard on noel hill's first solo record.
just for kicks, i occasionally do a "five-note-fiddle roll" on the push c on the right side. i roll the push c on the right-hand c row with the push d on the left g row, and the push b on the left g row. you can also roll the pull c on the left g row the same in reverse---cut with two pull notes from the c row on the right side, the pull d, and your second, lower cut with the pull b.
even when the tune falls in a place where i CAN do it, i only use five-note-fiddle-rolls on ango now and then for a hoot, because i think five-note-fiddle-rolls sound ugly on free-reed instruments. my favorite b/c box players are people who do NOT do the orthodox, comhaltas-approved "roller" thing.....it's hard to do at a good clip, so it wins the fleadhs, but i personally find it ugly as hell to listen to anywhere outside of a big, noisy ceili.
on anglo concertina, what people are usually doing or referring to when they say "rolls," and what listeners hear as "rolls," tend to be, "slap rolls," aka the Phantom Button Caper, or what i call the Sandwich Roll (get it?): playing the note, followed by a cut, followed by a second cut, followed by the original note again. i too hold the original note for most of the duration of the roll-with-two-cuts-in the middle. nobody told me about it, i did it by accident and thought it sounded great, been doing it ever since.
like the five-note-fiddle-roll, the Sandwich Roll is also done all in one direction. you can make the two cuts anything you want, the only rule being, if they sound weird, find other choices. your Seven Years of Listening will teach your unconscious what sounds weird and what sounds fine.
also--the left-hand-side note layout does not offer good Sandwich Roll opps; in such cases, i do the Phantom Button Caper or simple same-note triplets, or half-rolls (a same-note triplet with one cut thrown in).....
sorry. i have a little spatial dyslexia problem, so i lied. it is the RIGHT-hand side which offers poor Sandwich Roll opps, the LEFT side is rife with Sandwich Roll opps. you use the RIGHT side for your two cuts when your root note falls in the left side.
when the root note is on the RIGHT side, that is Phantom Button or half-roll time for me....or sometimes just a double-stop with no roll or triplet....or a triplet made up of the root note and its octave....
I have read about and tried that phantom button trick ( on D ), can see how it works, but that can wait.
As a flute player, I had to start somewhere, hence the note above and note below effort.
I have already tried some of these these concertina ornaments ( from reading other threads here ), to me they are like cranns ( all the graces above the main note ).
Thanks for the reply, I know its early , but I have load of tunes already, just not under my fingers on the Anglo yet, and I can't learn a tune without using the ornamentation, I need'em in there. They ARE the tune to me part and parcel with the melody.
Its like the bark and the tree.
I'm not trying to start an articulation debate, but I need to develop the ornaments as I go.
Another thing I'm really enjoying is finding different places to play the same phrases, eg crossing to the G row rather than across to the RHS .
Also i'm trying to copy people off the Comhaltas site ( Mariead Corrigan being my favourite and perhaps Tim Collins ). And so I NEED to understand something about how they get their sound.
[to me they are like cranns ( all the graces above the main note )]
gearoid o'hallmhorain actually calls then "cranns." of course, this wonderful concertina player, teacher, and ethnomusicology wizard is also a piper, and was a piper before turning to concertina. sometimes people do really elaborate ones where you play the root note twice at either the beginning or end of the thing, but i just do the simple "Sandwich" of the root note once at the beginning and end, with two cuts in the middle........i think gearoid even says, "piper cranns."
yes, the "define your terms!!!" thing is definitely a challenge in concertina-land, or perhaps in irish ornamentation generally.
@ceemonstet: I agree that rolls are uncommon on the concertina. I could go into the exact situations in which Noel Hill uses them, but it's best to say that in 6 years of lessons he has only shown a very few places that he would do what would be considered a roll in the over 60 tunes I have learned from him. I also agree with the previous assertion that they are cranns. They are not rolls, because the term roll is descriptive of the movement of the notes, whereas crann is defined as ornamenting above the base notes.
it was the "under the fingers" bit that I really meant you could develop
I suppose you can properly roll any note on a flute but on box or concertina you often have to cheat if you want to copy the playing style of "proper" instruments
personally I try to play to the strengths of the box rather than its limitations, so I avoid most rolls
I have plenty I could say on this, but the problem with trying to explain concertina technique in text is that it's nearly impossible to describe the subtleties of how to achieve the desired results. I recommend that you look on the Comhaltas video site and find an example of someone executing what you wish to know, that way we have something tangible to work with. The people responding might have different opinions as to how the person on the video accomplishes the ornament, but you can then experiment with the suggestions and see which one garners the results you seek.
the comhaltas clips of ernestine healy are pretty good examples of what i call the "Sandwich Roll," more or less.
the comhaltas clip of edel fox playing a set starting with "devanney's goat," is full of phantom button capers, i.e., loosely, "slap rolls," sometimes called "slap triplets," just to keep the whole thing really confusing. she is also doing other rolls or cranns or whatever in that clip, but there are plenty of examples of "slaps" there.
can't think of any videos showing the "five-note-fiddle-roll" on concertina. again, it's done on concertina now and then. but it's not the main roll/crann/slap/whatever that is usually done on concertina....
Guys
I went back and had another listen to Mairead Corrigan, and I think can see now how she does some of the rolls as you described. I can even make an A roll using the pull B & d on the RHS C row. How cool is that. I'm using her version of The Humours of Ballyloughlin as a training ground. Theres a lot of music in it.
I'll abandon pursuing flute/whistle/fiddle type rolls on this instrument. They are an abomination and must not be tolerated. -)
G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
Hi Folks
6 Weeks in to learning concertina, after 20 years of Irish flute playing. I am working on rolls with a metronome.
Rolls on B & A are satisfactory ( getting up to speed ) , but how do people play a roll on G ? I'm trying to do these ornaments' notes in the same direction , doesn't seem to be possible always.
Playing ( push G on the G Row ) "G-a-G-f#-G" , where the lower case letters are the cut & tap, breaks up the flow as I have to change direction twice ?
How do you "tap" the G roll ( play the lower grace note )
Thanks
pat
# Posted on October 1st 2010 by Pat Higgins
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
you can't do it all on the press. All part of the charm of push-pull instruments.
6 weeks in is very early to worry about this. For what its worth, my advice is forget the rolls for now and just concentrate on developing your technique, expanding your repetoire and getting a good pulse into the tune
# Posted on October 1st 2010 by millionyears_bc
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
In the classes I've had (Edel Fox & Caitlin NicGabhann) where we learned rolls, they were four notes, not the five that are typical on other instruments.
I'd have to check my notes for the others, but for rolls on C through A on the C row left side, use the first two fingers on the first two buttons on the C row right side, no change of bellows direction:
C{ec}C
D{fd}D
E{ec}E
F{fd}F
G{ec}G
A{fd}A
where the notes in braces are short.
Some of these can be used with the main note coming from the G row left side. For a few, you'd use the first two buttons on the G row, and for a few you'd use the second two button on the C row for the notes in braces.
For a d roll using the d on the left in the key of D, roll using the e on the 2nd button 2nd finger C row on the right, and the push c# with the first finger (whichever button it is on your layout).
# Posted on October 2nd 2010 by GaryAMartin
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
Oh, and I just remembered something that Claire Keville showed me several years ago, that I don't think Edel or Caitlin said. That is to hold the first note until just before you need to play it a second time, while you're playing the two short notes. That can make it sound more like five notes.
# Posted on October 2nd 2010 by GaryAMartin
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
it sounds as if you are asking how to do what is often dubbed a "five-note-fiddle roll," a la fiddlers or b/c accordion players who play in the roll style of joe burke, the late paddy o'brien, etc. namely, the note, a cut with the upper neighbor note, the note again, a second cut, this time with the lower neighbor note, then the original note again.
this is not the principal way of rolling in irish concertina. not to say it's "never" done, but it isn't the principal way.
why? one reason is, because you need to do these five-note rolls all in one direction, and anglo concertina isn't laid out so that you have the right five notes all in one direction, at least, in many cases.
there are spots where you CAN do classic five-note-fiddle-rolls on anglo concertina, but they're few. i'm pretty sure like, one, can be heard on noel hill's first solo record.
just for kicks, i occasionally do a "five-note-fiddle roll" on the push c on the right side. i roll the push c on the right-hand c row with the push d on the left g row, and the push b on the left g row. you can also roll the pull c on the left g row the same in reverse---cut with two pull notes from the c row on the right side, the pull d, and your second, lower cut with the pull b.
even when the tune falls in a place where i CAN do it, i only use five-note-fiddle-rolls on ango now and then for a hoot, because i think five-note-fiddle-rolls sound ugly on free-reed instruments. my favorite b/c box players are people who do NOT do the orthodox, comhaltas-approved "roller" thing.....it's hard to do at a good clip, so it wins the fleadhs, but i personally find it ugly as hell to listen to anywhere outside of a big, noisy ceili.
on anglo concertina, what people are usually doing or referring to when they say "rolls," and what listeners hear as "rolls," tend to be, "slap rolls," aka the Phantom Button Caper, or what i call the Sandwich Roll (get it?): playing the note, followed by a cut, followed by a second cut, followed by the original note again. i too hold the original note for most of the duration of the roll-with-two-cuts-in the middle. nobody told me about it, i did it by accident and thought it sounded great, been doing it ever since.
like the five-note-fiddle-roll, the Sandwich Roll is also done all in one direction. you can make the two cuts anything you want, the only rule being, if they sound weird, find other choices. your Seven Years of Listening will teach your unconscious what sounds weird and what sounds fine.
also--the left-hand-side note layout does not offer good Sandwich Roll opps; in such cases, i do the Phantom Button Caper or simple same-note triplets, or half-rolls (a same-note triplet with one cut thrown in).....
# Posted on October 2nd 2010 by ceemonster
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
sorry. i have a little spatial dyslexia problem, so i lied. it is the RIGHT-hand side which offers poor Sandwich Roll opps, the LEFT side is rife with Sandwich Roll opps. you use the RIGHT side for your two cuts when your root note falls in the left side.
when the root note is on the RIGHT side, that is Phantom Button or half-roll time for me....or sometimes just a double-stop with no roll or triplet....or a triplet made up of the root note and its octave....
# Posted on October 2nd 2010 by ceemonster
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
Gary, Ceemonster, thanks thats fantastic help.
I have read about and tried that phantom button trick ( on D ), can see how it works, but that can wait.
As a flute player, I had to start somewhere, hence the note above and note below effort.
I have already tried some of these these concertina ornaments ( from reading other threads here ), to me they are like cranns ( all the graces above the main note ).
So I greatly appreciate the tips above.
Regards
Pat
# Posted on October 2nd 2010 by Pat Higgins
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
millionyears
Thanks for the reply, I know its early , but I have load of tunes already, just not under my fingers on the Anglo yet, and I can't learn a tune without using the ornamentation, I need'em in there. They ARE the tune to me part and parcel with the melody.
Its like the bark and the tree.
I'm not trying to start an articulation debate, but I need to develop the ornaments as I go.
Another thing I'm really enjoying is finding different places to play the same phrases, eg crossing to the G row rather than across to the RHS .
Also i'm trying to copy people off the Comhaltas site ( Mariead Corrigan being my favourite and perhaps Tim Collins ). And so I NEED to understand something about how they get their sound.
Regards
PjH
# Posted on October 2nd 2010 by Pat Higgins
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
[to me they are like cranns ( all the graces above the main note )]
gearoid o'hallmhorain actually calls then "cranns." of course, this wonderful concertina player, teacher, and ethnomusicology wizard is also a piper, and was a piper before turning to concertina. sometimes people do really elaborate ones where you play the root note twice at either the beginning or end of the thing, but i just do the simple "Sandwich" of the root note once at the beginning and end, with two cuts in the middle........i think gearoid even says, "piper cranns."
yes, the "define your terms!!!" thing is definitely a challenge in concertina-land, or perhaps in irish ornamentation generally.
# Posted on October 2nd 2010 by ceemonster
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
@ceemonstet: I agree that rolls are uncommon on the concertina. I could go into the exact situations in which Noel Hill uses them, but it's best to say that in 6 years of lessons he has only shown a very few places that he would do what would be considered a roll in the over 60 tunes I have learned from him. I also agree with the previous assertion that they are cranns. They are not rolls, because the term roll is descriptive of the movement of the notes, whereas crann is defined as ornamenting above the base notes.
# Posted on October 2nd 2010 by daiv
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
Pat
it was the "under the fingers" bit that I really meant you could develop
I suppose you can properly roll any note on a flute but on box or concertina you often have to cheat if you want to copy the playing style of "proper" instruments
personally I try to play to the strengths of the box rather than its limitations, so I avoid most rolls
good luck
# Posted on October 2nd 2010 by millionyears_bc
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
I have plenty I could say on this, but the problem with trying to explain concertina technique in text is that it's nearly impossible to describe the subtleties of how to achieve the desired results. I recommend that you look on the Comhaltas video site and find an example of someone executing what you wish to know, that way we have something tangible to work with. The people responding might have different opinions as to how the person on the video accomplishes the ornament, but you can then experiment with the suggestions and see which one garners the results you seek.
# Posted on October 2nd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
@phantom: good advice!
# Posted on October 3rd 2010 by daiv
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
the comhaltas clips of ernestine healy are pretty good examples of what i call the "Sandwich Roll," more or less.
the comhaltas clip of edel fox playing a set starting with "devanney's goat," is full of phantom button capers, i.e., loosely, "slap rolls," sometimes called "slap triplets," just to keep the whole thing really confusing. she is also doing other rolls or cranns or whatever in that clip, but there are plenty of examples of "slaps" there.
can't think of any videos showing the "five-note-fiddle-roll" on concertina. again, it's done on concertina now and then. but it's not the main roll/crann/slap/whatever that is usually done on concertina....
# Posted on October 3rd 2010 by ceemonster
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
Guys
I went back and had another listen to Mairead Corrigan, and I think can see now how she does some of the rolls as you described. I can even make an A roll using the pull B & d on the RHS C row. How cool is that. I'm using her version of The Humours of Ballyloughlin as a training ground. Theres a lot of music in it.
I'll abandon pursuing flute/whistle/fiddle type rolls on this instrument. They are an abomination and must not be tolerated. -)
Thanks so much.
PjH
# Posted on October 3rd 2010 by Pat Higgins
Re: G Roll ( C/G Anglo Concertina )
That clip has some of the most deliberate and heavy ornamentation I have seen. It makes it more obvious so it is good pickings for an education.
# Posted on October 4th 2010 by cag