Which is apparently a Hebridean three-two. I had only recently known that three-twos existed, but I was under the impression they were an English form. Can anyone (Dow seems like he may be an expert) shed some light on three-twos? How are they typically played (I've read some people syncopate them)? Are they limited to England and Scotland (are some places more home to them than others)? Thanks!
The well-known Scottish song "Cam Ye Ower Frae France?" is in 3/2, and I think Scotland shared the 3/2 tradition with England.
In England, I'm told the North-West and Cheshire were places where particular use was made of the 3/2. Dances to go with it included the hornpipe, in whatever form it was in before it was adapted to the dotted 4/4 in the earlier c19. After that time, the 3/2 in trad seems to have fallen out of use. Conceivably, it had mostly been used for 3/2 hornpipes and so went obsolete when they did.
The 3/2 was used in England, it seems, at all levels. Stately examples include the hymn "All People That On Earth Do Dwell", and the Rondeau from Purcell's "Abdelazer". I don't know how much it was used on the Continent.
Thanks guys!
So there's a distinction then between Slip Reels and 3/2 Hornpipes, the former being faster and more marchlike-- makes sense, I guess, Slip Reels:3/2 Hornpipes::Reels:Hornpipes. So some 3/2 hornpipes turned into 4/4 hornpipes?
Just looking at some of the music posted above, there looks to be quite the variance to rhythm and melodic style. Some are more crochet-heavy, some have more eighth notes. 'Lads and Lasses' frightens me a bit, just the way it looks!
I see here: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7436 that ceolachan says that 3/2 predates 9/8. Does that mean there were Irish 3/2s that morphed into 9/8s, or did one simply disappear while the other arose?
Thanks for indulging my ignorant curiosity everyone.
Also, should I assume that the more crochet-laden 3/2 tunes are hornpipes and the more eighth note tunes are slip reels? Or is there no good way to tell from reading them?
This tune is a recent composition, but is emblematic of the style. By saying 3/2 rather than 6/4, you are giving the same kind of emphasis on faster beat that 2/2 (cut time) would indicate over 4/4 (common time). In the case of this particular tune, Pascal's band, Genticorum, plays the tune at about half-note (minim) = 100 beats/minute.
Just as slip jigs have bars that are 1.5 times as long as a bar of a 6/8 jig, slip reels are just like reel rhythm but with the bars 1.5 times as long. Slip polkas are polka rhythm x 1.5 for each bar. Three-twos are more like marches x 1.5 for each bar in terms of rhythm - doesn't matter whether they're crotchet- or quaver-laden.
Interesting stuff.
So, looking at what's above and at the list of 3/2 tunes, there are the following tune types:
Slip Reels; Triple (or Double) Hornpipes; Slip Polkas; Brandys; Hanter Dros; Finnish Polskas.
Dow, you say Three-twos have a march-like feel, does this mean that Three-twos are different from Triple Hornpipes (which I would assume have a hornpipe feel)?
Double Hornpipes are the same thing as Three-Twos. They're nothing like normal hornpipes, being more related to hop jigs and slip jigs. It's just that there is no point in creating new categories for Slip Reels on this website because they're so rare. They might as well all be lumped under the Three-Two category just as 4/4 marches are submitted to this site under the Reel category. Slip Polkas are in 3/4 timing, not 3/2.
Three-twos
Three-twos
I've recently come across this tune here: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5151
Which is apparently a Hebridean three-two. I had only recently known that three-twos existed, but I was under the impression they were an English form. Can anyone (Dow seems like he may be an expert) shed some light on three-twos? How are they typically played (I've read some people syncopate them)? Are they limited to England and Scotland (are some places more home to them than others)? Thanks!
# Posted on September 19th 2010 by Resodan
Re: Three-twos
Slip reels
Posted on May 14th 2007 by Dr. Dow
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/13704
Re: Northumbrian Tunes
Posted on December 6th 2002 by Jeremy
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1126/comments#comment17455
"If You Will Not Have Me, You May Let Me Go"
July 2nd 2007 by ceolachan.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7431
Tunes search = three-two tune type;
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/index/search?name=&type_id=10&mode_id=
Pete Loud's Collection of Northumbrian, Tyneside & other Traditional Tunes for the Fiddle
http://www.peterloud.co.uk/tunebook/
# Posted on September 19th 2010 by Ben Steen
~
"Lads And Lasses"
January 16th 2009 by nicholas
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/9259
# Posted on September 19th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Three-twos
The well-known Scottish song "Cam Ye Ower Frae France?" is in 3/2, and I think Scotland shared the 3/2 tradition with England.
In England, I'm told the North-West and Cheshire were places where particular use was made of the 3/2. Dances to go with it included the hornpipe, in whatever form it was in before it was adapted to the dotted 4/4 in the earlier c19. After that time, the 3/2 in trad seems to have fallen out of use. Conceivably, it had mostly been used for 3/2 hornpipes and so went obsolete when they did.
The 3/2 was used in England, it seems, at all levels. Stately examples include the hymn "All People That On Earth Do Dwell", and the Rondeau from Purcell's "Abdelazer". I don't know how much it was used on the Continent.
# Posted on September 20th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Three-twos
Thanks guys!
So there's a distinction then between Slip Reels and 3/2 Hornpipes, the former being faster and more marchlike-- makes sense, I guess, Slip Reels:3/2 Hornpipes::Reels:Hornpipes. So some 3/2 hornpipes turned into 4/4 hornpipes?
Just looking at some of the music posted above, there looks to be quite the variance to rhythm and melodic style. Some are more crochet-heavy, some have more eighth notes. 'Lads and Lasses' frightens me a bit, just the way it looks!
I see here: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7436 that ceolachan says that 3/2 predates 9/8. Does that mean there were Irish 3/2s that morphed into 9/8s, or did one simply disappear while the other arose?
Thanks for indulging my ignorant curiosity everyone.
# Posted on September 20th 2010 by Resodan
Re: Three-twos
Also, should I assume that the more crochet-laden 3/2 tunes are hornpipes and the more eighth note tunes are slip reels? Or is there no good way to tell from reading them?
# Posted on September 20th 2010 by Resodan
Re: Three-twos
In addition, there is the large québécois pile of tunes of the style "brandy" which are quite popular for stepdancing.
One example on thesession: Brandy Culotte, by Pascal Gemme
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8888
This tune is a recent composition, but is emblematic of the style. By saying 3/2 rather than 6/4, you are giving the same kind of emphasis on faster beat that 2/2 (cut time) would indicate over 4/4 (common time). In the case of this particular tune, Pascal's band, Genticorum, plays the tune at about half-note (minim) = 100 beats/minute.
# Posted on September 20th 2010 by HipCzeck
Re: Three-twos
Just as slip jigs have bars that are 1.5 times as long as a bar of a 6/8 jig, slip reels are just like reel rhythm but with the bars 1.5 times as long. Slip polkas are polka rhythm x 1.5 for each bar. Three-twos are more like marches x 1.5 for each bar in terms of rhythm - doesn't matter whether they're crotchet- or quaver-laden.
# Posted on September 20th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Three-twos
ask my father...
# Posted on September 20th 2010 by pipewatcher
Re: Three-twos
Here is Mr Beveridges Maggot. A 3/2 playford tune, published in 1695, used by the BBC for Pride and Prejudice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUC4hmCyxZ0
# Posted on September 20th 2010 by neilowen
Re: Three-twos
Don't think 3/2s are anything new - J S Bach certainly featured them in his dance suites.
My favorite is Little Fishie
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1259
# Posted on September 21st 2010 by geoffwright
Re: Three-twos
Bach would write this as 3/4 with 12 16th notes per measure. Such as in his first violin sonata in G minor.
# Posted on September 21st 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Three-twos
Interesting stuff.
So, looking at what's above and at the list of 3/2 tunes, there are the following tune types:
Slip Reels; Triple (or Double) Hornpipes; Slip Polkas; Brandys; Hanter Dros; Finnish Polskas.
Dow, you say Three-twos have a march-like feel, does this mean that Three-twos are different from Triple Hornpipes (which I would assume have a hornpipe feel)?
# Posted on October 3rd 2010 by Resodan
Re: Three-twos
Double Hornpipes are the same thing as Three-Twos. They're nothing like normal hornpipes, being more related to hop jigs and slip jigs. It's just that there is no point in creating new categories for Slip Reels on this website because they're so rare. They might as well all be lumped under the Three-Two category just as 4/4 marches are submitted to this site under the Reel category. Slip Polkas are in 3/4 timing, not 3/2.
# Posted on October 3rd 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Three-twos
Ok, gotcha! Thanks for clearing it up.
# Posted on October 3rd 2010 by Resodan