I'm going to be moving to pastures new after 15 or so years in London. Although the area I'm moving to - the Conwy valley in North Wales - will provide a welcome respite from the daily hell on the tube, I'm wondering what to do about getting my fix of music.
Apparently there is a regular Irish session in Llandudno which I will try to get to; however I'm wondering if I should start learning some Welsh traditional music too. This leads me on to some broader questions: what is the state of Welsh traditional music these days? Is it popular? Are there Welsh sessions? Which groups should I be listening to? What will Welsh musicians make of a blow-in like myself?
Any answers/advice gratefully received.
First of all, it's good to hear that you're thinking of playing our music when you move to Wales. The people further north can tell you more of what's going on in and around Dyffryn Conwy than I can - such as that session in Dolgellau and in Bangor.
I'm sure that musicians will be glad if you make the effort to learn Welsh stuff. I can think of a couple of sessions, where a lot of Welsh music is played or sung, and where many of the musicians are incomers.
The Mentrau Iaith, or Language Initiatives, organise a lot of gigs and know what's going on as far as local Welsh music goes - not just trad stuff, but all sorts. Look for Menter Iaith Conwy here (although it doesn't look as though the site's been updated, the mentrau run email bulletin schemes which are more current):
In another place on this site, our weekend of Welsh traditional sessions has been mentioned. It's downnear Swansea, but if you could make it you''d be more than welcome and we could start you off with some tunes. There's a list of common tunes on the website, too.
www.sesiwn,org
Here's the link to the above post - someone asked for a list of bands and performers and I made some basic suggestions. Others may add to it:
Hi Conan and Dave, Danny here, you pretend Welshmen
I luerve North Wales big time, I used to do loads of rock climbing round there. Glad you're getting back into Celtic Civilisation, Conan. Big Dave is having a birthday bash in East Dulwich at the session there if you're interested, and want to include that in your doubtless breathtakingly endless itinery of leaving do's. I might even venture out myself (if I'm around - my daughter Roisin is going up to Uni in Sheffield that weekend so I might not manage, but would if I could. Big dave's parties are magnicent affairs, thus well worth attending.)
Thanks for all the really helpful advice; should smooth the journey. I'll see if I can make it to the weekend near Swansea - sounds great. Either way, I'll brush up on that tune list on the website.
Pibydd, thanks especially for the music tips.
David, I forgot you had moved to Wales! That's brilliant - should see you around.
Danny, cheers for the message about Big Dave's do; seems everyone's going. Might see you there.
Silver Spear, it's my other half who got the job. The change of scenery will do me good. How's Scotland treating you?
Spear, whilst we're about this I *may* be up in Glasgow for a couple of days in early october...would I allowed to poke my nose into any of these young hot-shot sessions you go along to?
Pitchfork - I hope you don't mind if I pitch in and answer your question to Pibydd. I've only lived in Wales for 4 years and am still developing a feel for Welsh music. Pibyd is much better informed on the subject than I am and might well have something to add:
Welsh music certainly has some forms in common with Irish and Scottish music: Hornpipes and jigs are common, and there are quite a few slip jigs as well. There are even a handful of tunes in common with the Irish repertoire. There is not really anything that sounds quite like an Irish reel (although hornpipes may sometimes be played fast and straight). There are a lot of tunes in 2/4 and 4/4 which have a polka-type structure. There is also a large body of slower tunes in 3/4 and 4/4, many of them originally song airs - some of these may also sometimes be played at dance speed.
One trait I have found to be quite common in Welsh tunes is that the repeat of the B-part is the same as the A part (AABA). In some tunes the whole BA-section is repeated on top of that. that. By and large, welsh tunes have a feel that is less fluid and 'notey' than Irish tunes. Those tunes referred to as reels tend to contain more crotchets (1/4-notes) than we would expect to hear in an Irish reel. Similarly, jigs tend to have more crotchet-quaver groupings. In this respect, you could say it is closer in feel to English music.
I have noticed a number of tunes that clearly have common origins with certain English, Irish and Scots tunes. But they often fit the same melodic material into a slightly different rhythmic framework, giving them a different feel, which I can only describe as 'Welsh'. In the tunes that are not obviously of non-Welsh origin, there are certain types of melodic progression that I have come to recognise as characteristically Welsh: arpeggio-based phrases are quite common, as are tunes in the melodic and harmonic minors; melodies can be quite 'involved', capitalising on the irregular bar structures and, unlike Irish tunes, often follow a clearly defined harmonic structure. This probably owes much to the Welsh triple harp, which is fully chromatic and allows tunes to be played with full chordal accompaniment.
There is also a body of much simpler tunes, coming from the repertoire of the pipes and pibgorn (hornpipe - the instrument, not the tune type). These are limited in range to an octave and a note (much like the highland pipes, but without the flattened 7th). These tunes are generally in the major or the Dorian mode and sound, to me, typically 'pipey', rather than sounding obviously from a particular area.
I'd be surprised if much of the musical base for the tradition was based on the triple harp. Perhaps the wider harping tradition in Wales, but triple harp was always, at least in my understanding, a tiny minority thing. Certainly so for well over a century. I wonder, though, if there was *ever* a time when the triple harp was particularly commonly played or widespread. I'd be interested to know.
@ er,... Underscore (?). You'd be welcome at the Wed session in the Oran Mor even if Emily is away. We like visitors. People start drifting in around 9:30 and things usually get going around 10. Feel free to drop me a line beforehand if Emily is away, and you want to, but it is ok to just turn up on the night and say hello.
There are loads of other sessions in Glasgow, but I very rarely play anywhere else, so I'll leave it to others to let you know about those sessions and how they handle visitors.
Chris, he said "young hot-shot sessions". I think he was referring to us! :-p
Seriously though Danny you would be very welcome at our humble Friday night offering although, like Chris, I don't get to any of the other Glasgow sessions given that I am in exile in Perth.
Of course, I kinda meant that I met Danny about four years ago at a session in South London and would be bummed to miss him if he were passing through Glasgow.
A few quick observations in relation to Chris' question:
CMO is rather more technicallyinformed than me. His perspective on Welsh Trad music in relation to Irish and Scottish TM is probably more illuminating for you. I tend agree with what he has to say, for what it’s worth and in essence.
To develop a little, we do have a lot of tunes which have been taken in from other traditions, especially England. I find English tunes are usually much easier for me to absorb than, say, many Irish ones. I dunno if that's cos they're simpler and easier anyway, or because they're closer to what I usually play, or both. Especially during and after the C18th, even though traditional music was under attack from Methodism and its distaste for ‘sinful mirth’, the more versatile fiddle was taking over from the crwth, and the Triple Harp was displacing the old Welsh Harp – later to be displaced by the Pedal Harp, of course. With these new instruments, and especially the fiddle, new repertoire was coming in. Lots of our tunes have brothers, sisters, cousins, parents in other parts of the world and especially England. However, many of these tunes have been developed and now sound more ‘Welsh’.
One of my favourite 'pipe' tunes is 'Y Lili' - The Lily (Never! I hear you cry. Anyway) A few months ago I was looking through a bagpipe manuscript from the north of England or Scotland – forget which, will look it up – and discovered much the same tune, in a different key but evidently an ancestor or cousin to what I play. I seem to remember playing Y Lili at the Bagpipe Blowout a couple of years back and someone was familiar with it in a different context, too. There are other examples, which I won’t go into. Suffice to say that I won’t go near a copy of Playford now in case yet another Welsh icon is exposed as an incomer. Sigh.
Interestingly, I was talking to a musician in Shropshire who suggested that, with the coming of Methodism and disapproval of public music-making and dancing, some Welsh fiddlers must have moved east from Wales into the English March, and taken their tunes with them. He suspects that a lot of Shropshire and Herefordshire tunes must have Welsh antecedents.
Another thing that's notable is that nowadays much of what we play is in D, G, E Minor or those related modes which I don't understand but which are similar in effect. Look back into a lot of the manuscripts and early collections and you'll find many of the same tunes in C and F, their related minors and so on. The tyranny of the fiddle strikes again, methinks. Not melodeons, though, I’m glad to say.
Mind you, as CMO says, some things just sound Welsh. As I said above, tunes which have been absorbed have often been changed and sound different, somehow. It’s hard to explain. I’ll try to think about it and to explain better. I’d suggest that a many are characterised by a minor or minorish feel. An English musician of my acquaintance, who knows a lof of Welsh stuff, certainly feels that that minorish feel is characteristic of many Welsh tunes.
The repertoire which we nowadays play on the pipes and pibgorn is a ‘rescued’, reconstructed and created repertoire. We know that ‘Meillionnen’ was played on the pipes, and there are a few tunes with ‘Pibydd’ (Piper) in their titles. I think that many of the harp tunes from the ap Huw manuscript fit well in a pipe-related context too, and some research has been done on similarities or otherwise with piobaireachd (and we know that ‘pipes’ were one of the three instruments that a Pencerdd or Master Musician could be given by the King or his Lord, the other being crwth or harp. We’re not sure what sort of ‘pipes’, though, could be more of a flute, for example, as well as bagpipes).
However, we don’t have much which we can certainly say was played on the pipes. Some tunes fit our pipes now, so we play them. You can also hear a tune and think ‘that fits so well on the pipes that it could well once have been played on them’. Others have been arranged so that they fit. A number of hymn tunes fit very well on the pipes. We know that many of them have been developed from folk tunes, so it’s reasonable to suggest that some may well have been played on the pipes at one time. A lot are minor, too. Play an E Minor tune with an E drone rather than a D, it makes all the difference. Another thing to bear in mind is the influence of song on tunes. However, I digress. Enough.
Hope these points have been relevant to your questions. I could go on, but won’t.
I'm glad to read a sensible and even scholarly review of Welsh music.
Quite a few years ago there was a folk festival I attended in Wales, and it seemed that what went down well with the local crowd was modern songs, in Welsh, about historical incidents, accompanied by furiously strummed guitar, with bass, drums, and a couple of irish musicians thrown in to give it a bit of 'Celtic' authenticity.
Not quite folk music, then.
Near, but not quite.
Aah! Found it. Y Lili, that is. Or, The Lilly. Or rather, The Lilley.
It was in John Sutherland's Manuscript of 1785ish, on Ross Anderson's Music Page. If you're interested in piping, and the history and repertoire of the Pastoral, Union/Uilleann pipes, it's worth a visit.
And if you look further on his page you'll find abc's and pdf's of some tunes, including The Lilley. I won't copy the abc's as they're not mine, but have a shufti if you will. Evidently related.
The sort of music you describe is probably more to the taste of most people in Wales than 'straight' 'Folk' music. In a sense, than, that's the the music of the folk, eh? This is why I tend to talk of 'traditional music' as I know the stuff I play is far from mainstream!
I've been impressed in Brittany, in Lorient for example, where at festival time there are loads of rock bands with drum kits, bass and electric guitar led by a 'trad' instrument like bombard, pipes, fiddle, whistle, playing variations of traditional stuff. The young people out there all seem to know at least some of their traditional dances, too.
So, I'd like to see more 'folk-rock' bands out there, playing traditional tunes as a way of re-introducing this music to ordinary people. Anyone in South Wales who agrees with me, let me know. I've been looking for musicians to do this for a while.
That isn't to say that we shouldn't get more 'traditional' trad (whatever that is) out there as well, of course. I nearly always get good reactions if I get pipes out in a pub, provided I dont overdo it... Some friends and I play trad music and songs in a few pubs in Merthyr Tudful, Swansea and locally here in the Tawe Valley, and we generally get a good reception too. You have to choose the time and place, though.
Worth a discussion on its own, Pibydd. But it probably comes down to personal preference. In my view folk-rock has its place. But to dilute trad music in this way so as to appeal to the masses is missing the point and is a bit of a cop-out. In my view.
Well, this may well be worth a discussion on its own, aye. But to answer your post, ___ , to me 'appealing to the masses' is very much the point.
Let me explain. My language and its attendant culture is dying - the music, songs, traditions and cultures that are intimately bound up with the Welsh language are in terrible decline. I don't really think that I can save it but I try to help rescue some of this. That means getting as much as I can 'to the masses', because a minority of a minority can't save a language, music and culture, or even save parts of those.
Sadly, it's probable that more people in Wales can sing 'the Wild Rover' than 'Sosban Fach'. They'll generally be more familiar with the Pogues than any bands which play Welsh traditional music and sing traditional Welsh songs. And yes, I do think this is sad, just as I'd be sad if Irish people didn't know their songs any more, or English people theirs, or whoever. It's not a matter of superiority, of course, but of celebrating difference and distinctiveness. The better we understand ourselves and where we come from, linguistically, musically and culturally, the better we can make our own, unique contributions to the world. When our contribution becomes less unique, the world loses out in a small way and we are all slightly less able to understand the world.
So. In order to try to get Welsh music and songs out there, into the pubs and onto the streets, we have to offer familiar songs to 'the masses'. In a sense, of course, this certainly does 'dilute' what we're offering. Having said that a landlord is far more likely to give me a gig on a Saturday night if I can play stuff his patrons are familiar with. Now that's cultural dilution! If I offer just Welsh Trad music and songs, i won't get a look-in in much of Wales. So, the music and songs which I want to play won't get a look-in either. If I don't get in there on that Saturday night, what music will they be listening to? Covers of songs sung in a faux American accent, or similar - again.
This doesn't mean that I don't play 'straight' Welsh Trad stuff. Far from it. It's what I prefer playing, and we need that as a 'Gold Standard' which carries on. However, provided that this Gold Standard perseveres, successive generations will be able to develop from it. And of course, 'Traditional Music' has developed and will develop.
As I've said above, and I know I'm not the first to say it, folk music nowadays is not the music of 'The Folk', if by that we mean of 'ordinary people'. I want to make it available to as many of them as possible, for musical, linguistic and cultural reasons. I'm not copping out - I want other people to be able to 'cop in' (as it were) and to participate again. I'm not forcing it on anyone, but allowing them to experience it, allowing them to make their own minds up having heard something different to what they normally would have heard on a Saturday night in their local pub.
Traditional music in Wales
Traditional music in Wales
I'm going to be moving to pastures new after 15 or so years in London. Although the area I'm moving to - the Conwy valley in North Wales - will provide a welcome respite from the daily hell on the tube, I'm wondering what to do about getting my fix of music.
Apparently there is a regular Irish session in Llandudno which I will try to get to; however I'm wondering if I should start learning some Welsh traditional music too. This leads me on to some broader questions: what is the state of Welsh traditional music these days? Is it popular? Are there Welsh sessions? Which groups should I be listening to? What will Welsh musicians make of a blow-in like myself?
Any answers/advice gratefully received.
Diolch yn fawr iawn!
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Wow, good on you leaving the squalor of the big city to the beautiful Welsh countryside.
New job out there?
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Traditional music in wales:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-QYRlK7cd8&feature=related
hope this helps.
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Traditional music in Wales
sorry, couldn't resist. It's the champagne.
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Traditional music in Wales
blow-ins at traditional music sessions in wales. Spoon-playing and talking during tunes very evident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W2hXZM6iXM&feature=related
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Llongyfarchiadau, Conan! Croeso i Gymru.
You might be interested in this: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/25495
and this: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/group.php?gid=35346240361
There are also regular Welsh and Irish sessions in Bangor.
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Traditional music in Wales
First of all, it's good to hear that you're thinking of playing our music when you move to Wales. The people further north can tell you more of what's going on in and around Dyffryn Conwy than I can - such as that session in Dolgellau and in Bangor.
I'm sure that musicians will be glad if you make the effort to learn Welsh stuff. I can think of a couple of sessions, where a lot of Welsh music is played or sung, and where many of the musicians are incomers.
The Mentrau Iaith, or Language Initiatives, organise a lot of gigs and know what's going on as far as local Welsh music goes - not just trad stuff, but all sorts. Look for Menter Iaith Conwy here (although it doesn't look as though the site's been updated, the mentrau run email bulletin schemes which are more current):
http://www.mentrau-iaith.com/saesneg/index.php
In another place on this site, our weekend of Welsh traditional sessions has been mentioned. It's downnear Swansea, but if you could make it you''d be more than welcome and we could start you off with some tunes. There's a list of common tunes on the website, too.
www.sesiwn,org
Here's the link to the above post - someone asked for a list of bands and performers and I made some basic suggestions. Others may add to it:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/25495
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by Pibydd
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Oops, should've been
www.sesiwn.org
Sorry.
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by Pibydd
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Shwmae Pibydd. Adfilwr newydd arall, dw i'n meddwl.
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Hi Conan and Dave, Danny here, you pretend Welshmen
I luerve North Wales big time, I used to do loads of rock climbing round there. Glad you're getting back into Celtic Civilisation, Conan. Big Dave is having a birthday bash in East Dulwich at the session there if you're interested, and want to include that in your doubtless breathtakingly endless itinery of leaving do's. I might even venture out myself (if I'm around - my daughter Roisin is going up to Uni in Sheffield that weekend so I might not manage, but would if I could. Big dave's parties are magnicent affairs, thus well worth attending.)
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Thanks for all the really helpful advice; should smooth the journey. I'll see if I can make it to the weekend near Swansea - sounds great. Either way, I'll brush up on that tune list on the website.
Pibydd, thanks especially for the music tips.
David, I forgot you had moved to Wales! That's brilliant - should see you around.
Danny, cheers for the message about Big Dave's do; seems everyone's going. Might see you there.
Silver Spear, it's my other half who got the job. The change of scenery will do me good. How's Scotland treating you?
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Scotland's fantastic, although I spend more time in the mountains and playing music than I should. You guys should come up for a tune sometime.
A change of scenery will be definitely be nice.
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Traditional music in Wales
So Pibydd , what are the main tune types for trad Welsh music?
How close is it in feel to Irish or Scottish music? Is it closer to some English trad in feel? Or clearly on its own?
- Chris
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Spear, whilst we're about this I *may* be up in Glasgow for a couple of days in early october...would I allowed to poke my nose into any of these young hot-shot sessions you go along to?
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Of course you can but I may not be there as I am visiting the US for the first week of Oct. Afterwards I will be around.
# Posted on September 15th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Pitchfork - I hope you don't mind if I pitch in and answer your question to Pibydd. I've only lived in Wales for 4 years and am still developing a feel for Welsh music. Pibyd is much better informed on the subject than I am and might well have something to add:
Welsh music certainly has some forms in common with Irish and Scottish music: Hornpipes and jigs are common, and there are quite a few slip jigs as well. There are even a handful of tunes in common with the Irish repertoire. There is not really anything that sounds quite like an Irish reel (although hornpipes may sometimes be played fast and straight). There are a lot of tunes in 2/4 and 4/4 which have a polka-type structure. There is also a large body of slower tunes in 3/4 and 4/4, many of them originally song airs - some of these may also sometimes be played at dance speed.
One trait I have found to be quite common in Welsh tunes is that the repeat of the B-part is the same as the A part (AABA). In some tunes the whole BA-section is repeated on top of that. that. By and large, welsh tunes have a feel that is less fluid and 'notey' than Irish tunes. Those tunes referred to as reels tend to contain more crotchets (1/4-notes) than we would expect to hear in an Irish reel. Similarly, jigs tend to have more crotchet-quaver groupings. In this respect, you could say it is closer in feel to English music.
I have noticed a number of tunes that clearly have common origins with certain English, Irish and Scots tunes. But they often fit the same melodic material into a slightly different rhythmic framework, giving them a different feel, which I can only describe as 'Welsh'. In the tunes that are not obviously of non-Welsh origin, there are certain types of melodic progression that I have come to recognise as characteristically Welsh: arpeggio-based phrases are quite common, as are tunes in the melodic and harmonic minors; melodies can be quite 'involved', capitalising on the irregular bar structures and, unlike Irish tunes, often follow a clearly defined harmonic structure. This probably owes much to the Welsh triple harp, which is fully chromatic and allows tunes to be played with full chordal accompaniment.
There is also a body of much simpler tunes, coming from the repertoire of the pipes and pibgorn (hornpipe - the instrument, not the tune type). These are limited in range to an octave and a note (much like the highland pipes, but without the flattened 7th). These tunes are generally in the major or the Dorian mode and sound, to me, typically 'pipey', rather than sounding obviously from a particular area.
I'll stop there before I make a fool of myself.
# Posted on September 15th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Traditional music in Wales
I'd be surprised if much of the musical base for the tradition was based on the triple harp. Perhaps the wider harping tradition in Wales, but triple harp was always, at least in my understanding, a tiny minority thing. Certainly so for well over a century. I wonder, though, if there was *ever* a time when the triple harp was particularly commonly played or widespread. I'd be interested to know.
# Posted on September 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Thanks CMO - chris
# Posted on September 15th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Traditional music in Wales
@ er,... Underscore (?). You'd be welcome at the Wed session in the Oran Mor even if Emily is away. We like visitors. People start drifting in around 9:30 and things usually get going around 10. Feel free to drop me a line beforehand if Emily is away, and you want to, but it is ok to just turn up on the night and say hello.
There are loads of other sessions in Glasgow, but I very rarely play anywhere else, so I'll leave it to others to let you know about those sessions and how they handle visitors.
- chris
# Posted on September 15th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Chris, he said "young hot-shot sessions". I think he was referring to us! :-p
Seriously though Danny you would be very welcome at our humble Friday night offering although, like Chris, I don't get to any of the other Glasgow sessions given that I am in exile in Perth.
Alistair
# Posted on September 15th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Of course, I kinda meant that I met Danny about four years ago at a session in South London and would be bummed to miss him if he were passing through Glasgow.
# Posted on September 15th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Traditional music in Wales
A few quick observations in relation to Chris' question:
CMO is rather more technicallyinformed than me. His perspective on Welsh Trad music in relation to Irish and Scottish TM is probably more illuminating for you. I tend agree with what he has to say, for what it’s worth and in essence.
To develop a little, we do have a lot of tunes which have been taken in from other traditions, especially England. I find English tunes are usually much easier for me to absorb than, say, many Irish ones. I dunno if that's cos they're simpler and easier anyway, or because they're closer to what I usually play, or both. Especially during and after the C18th, even though traditional music was under attack from Methodism and its distaste for ‘sinful mirth’, the more versatile fiddle was taking over from the crwth, and the Triple Harp was displacing the old Welsh Harp – later to be displaced by the Pedal Harp, of course. With these new instruments, and especially the fiddle, new repertoire was coming in. Lots of our tunes have brothers, sisters, cousins, parents in other parts of the world and especially England. However, many of these tunes have been developed and now sound more ‘Welsh’.
One of my favourite 'pipe' tunes is 'Y Lili' - The Lily (Never! I hear you cry. Anyway) A few months ago I was looking through a bagpipe manuscript from the north of England or Scotland – forget which, will look it up – and discovered much the same tune, in a different key but evidently an ancestor or cousin to what I play. I seem to remember playing Y Lili at the Bagpipe Blowout a couple of years back and someone was familiar with it in a different context, too. There are other examples, which I won’t go into. Suffice to say that I won’t go near a copy of Playford now in case yet another Welsh icon is exposed as an incomer. Sigh.
Interestingly, I was talking to a musician in Shropshire who suggested that, with the coming of Methodism and disapproval of public music-making and dancing, some Welsh fiddlers must have moved east from Wales into the English March, and taken their tunes with them. He suspects that a lot of Shropshire and Herefordshire tunes must have Welsh antecedents.
Another thing that's notable is that nowadays much of what we play is in D, G, E Minor or those related modes which I don't understand but which are similar in effect. Look back into a lot of the manuscripts and early collections and you'll find many of the same tunes in C and F, their related minors and so on. The tyranny of the fiddle strikes again, methinks. Not melodeons, though, I’m glad to say.
Mind you, as CMO says, some things just sound Welsh. As I said above, tunes which have been absorbed have often been changed and sound different, somehow. It’s hard to explain. I’ll try to think about it and to explain better. I’d suggest that a many are characterised by a minor or minorish feel. An English musician of my acquaintance, who knows a lof of Welsh stuff, certainly feels that that minorish feel is characteristic of many Welsh tunes.
The repertoire which we nowadays play on the pipes and pibgorn is a ‘rescued’, reconstructed and created repertoire. We know that ‘Meillionnen’ was played on the pipes, and there are a few tunes with ‘Pibydd’ (Piper) in their titles. I think that many of the harp tunes from the ap Huw manuscript fit well in a pipe-related context too, and some research has been done on similarities or otherwise with piobaireachd (and we know that ‘pipes’ were one of the three instruments that a Pencerdd or Master Musician could be given by the King or his Lord, the other being crwth or harp. We’re not sure what sort of ‘pipes’, though, could be more of a flute, for example, as well as bagpipes).
However, we don’t have much which we can certainly say was played on the pipes. Some tunes fit our pipes now, so we play them. You can also hear a tune and think ‘that fits so well on the pipes that it could well once have been played on them’. Others have been arranged so that they fit. A number of hymn tunes fit very well on the pipes. We know that many of them have been developed from folk tunes, so it’s reasonable to suggest that some may well have been played on the pipes at one time. A lot are minor, too. Play an E Minor tune with an E drone rather than a D, it makes all the difference. Another thing to bear in mind is the influence of song on tunes. However, I digress. Enough.
Hope these points have been relevant to your questions. I could go on, but won’t.
# Posted on September 15th 2010 by Pibydd
Re: Traditional music in Wales
... and thanks also to Pibydd.
- chris
# Posted on September 15th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Y Lili ~ The Humours of Ballyconnell?
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6255
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1428
# Posted on September 15th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Traditional music in Wales
I'm glad to read a sensible and even scholarly review of Welsh music.
Quite a few years ago there was a folk festival I attended in Wales, and it seemed that what went down well with the local crowd was modern songs, in Welsh, about historical incidents, accompanied by furiously strummed guitar, with bass, drums, and a couple of irish musicians thrown in to give it a bit of 'Celtic' authenticity.
Not quite folk music, then.
Near, but not quite.
# Posted on September 15th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Aah! Found it. Y Lili, that is. Or, The Lilly. Or rather, The Lilley.
It was in John Sutherland's Manuscript of 1785ish, on Ross Anderson's Music Page. If you're interested in piping, and the history and repertoire of the Pastoral, Union/Uilleann pipes, it's worth a visit.
Ross's Page is here:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/music/index.html
The scanned page is here:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/musicfiles/manuscripts/sutherland/suth-pp-41-80.pdf
And if you look further on his page you'll find abc's and pdf's of some tunes, including The Lilley. I won't copy the abc's as they're not mine, but have a shufti if you will. Evidently related.
# Posted on September 16th 2010 by Pibydd
Re: Traditional music in Wales
On Guernsey Pete's point:
I'm afraid that the sort of music you describe above
# Posted on September 16th 2010 by Pibydd
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Oops.... That posted bfeore I finished. I mean...
The sort of music you describe is probably more to the taste of most people in Wales than 'straight' 'Folk' music. In a sense, than, that's the the music of the folk, eh? This is why I tend to talk of 'traditional music' as I know the stuff I play is far from mainstream!
I've been impressed in Brittany, in Lorient for example, where at festival time there are loads of rock bands with drum kits, bass and electric guitar led by a 'trad' instrument like bombard, pipes, fiddle, whistle, playing variations of traditional stuff. The young people out there all seem to know at least some of their traditional dances, too.
So, I'd like to see more 'folk-rock' bands out there, playing traditional tunes as a way of re-introducing this music to ordinary people. Anyone in South Wales who agrees with me, let me know. I've been looking for musicians to do this for a while.
That isn't to say that we shouldn't get more 'traditional' trad (whatever that is) out there as well, of course. I nearly always get good reactions if I get pipes out in a pub, provided I dont overdo it... Some friends and I play trad music and songs in a few pubs in Merthyr Tudful, Swansea and locally here in the Tawe Valley, and we generally get a good reception too. You have to choose the time and place, though.
# Posted on September 16th 2010 by Pibydd
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Worth a discussion on its own, Pibydd. But it probably comes down to personal preference. In my view folk-rock has its place. But to dilute trad music in this way so as to appeal to the masses is missing the point and is a bit of a cop-out. In my view.
# Posted on September 17th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Well, this may well be worth a discussion on its own, aye. But to answer your post, ___ , to me 'appealing to the masses' is very much the point.
Let me explain. My language and its attendant culture is dying - the music, songs, traditions and cultures that are intimately bound up with the Welsh language are in terrible decline. I don't really think that I can save it but I try to help rescue some of this. That means getting as much as I can 'to the masses', because a minority of a minority can't save a language, music and culture, or even save parts of those.
Sadly, it's probable that more people in Wales can sing 'the Wild Rover' than 'Sosban Fach'. They'll generally be more familiar with the Pogues than any bands which play Welsh traditional music and sing traditional Welsh songs. And yes, I do think this is sad, just as I'd be sad if Irish people didn't know their songs any more, or English people theirs, or whoever. It's not a matter of superiority, of course, but of celebrating difference and distinctiveness. The better we understand ourselves and where we come from, linguistically, musically and culturally, the better we can make our own, unique contributions to the world. When our contribution becomes less unique, the world loses out in a small way and we are all slightly less able to understand the world.
So. In order to try to get Welsh music and songs out there, into the pubs and onto the streets, we have to offer familiar songs to 'the masses'. In a sense, of course, this certainly does 'dilute' what we're offering. Having said that a landlord is far more likely to give me a gig on a Saturday night if I can play stuff his patrons are familiar with. Now that's cultural dilution! If I offer just Welsh Trad music and songs, i won't get a look-in in much of Wales. So, the music and songs which I want to play won't get a look-in either. If I don't get in there on that Saturday night, what music will they be listening to? Covers of songs sung in a faux American accent, or similar - again.
This doesn't mean that I don't play 'straight' Welsh Trad stuff. Far from it. It's what I prefer playing, and we need that as a 'Gold Standard' which carries on. However, provided that this Gold Standard perseveres, successive generations will be able to develop from it. And of course, 'Traditional Music' has developed and will develop.
As I've said above, and I know I'm not the first to say it, folk music nowadays is not the music of 'The Folk', if by that we mean of 'ordinary people'. I want to make it available to as many of them as possible, for musical, linguistic and cultural reasons. I'm not copping out - I want other people to be able to 'cop in' (as it were) and to participate again. I'm not forcing it on anyone, but allowing them to experience it, allowing them to make their own minds up having heard something different to what they normally would have heard on a Saturday night in their local pub.
# Posted on September 17th 2010 by Pibydd
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Pibydd, you made your point very well. Thanks for clarifying. I understand and I'm with you now.
# Posted on September 17th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Thanks, ___. I'm glad I was able to explain. It isn't always easy.
# Posted on September 18th 2010 by Pibydd
Re: Traditional music in Wales
Cass Meurig plays both fiddle and crwth on a number of recordings.
# Posted on September 18th 2010 by Resodan