The Session >> Discussions >> Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Comments
Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Apologies if the subject matter is wearisome - I've been trawling through the large back-catalogue of bouzouki threads, but...
Can anyone explain to me, please, the basics of Eamonn Doorley's playing style, as seen quite well in this clip of Julie Fowlis? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgIZVZf9B5c
I assume that it is a form of counterpoint interspersed with bits of melody and some chords, but I really can't see where he is getting it from. I also read Han's pages on this, and he seems to be saying that you either literally have to plan the whole counterpoint thing bar by bar, or simply improvise. All well and good, but I can't yet discern exactly what the actual technique is, especially right hand and choice of which strings he is hitting and why...
Some time ago, I pestered Andy Irvine in person via email - he was very good-humoured at replying, but quite understandably declined to give away *his* technique either
I normally use ADAe (think that's right) as for my octave mandola, and currently have two courses of octave strings, which I quite like. I find that this gives good melody potential and still produces comfortable, good-sounding chords in most of the range. I have a reasonable and growing chord repertoire in that tuning, but the whole point of buying the bouzouki was for the fill-in. I can't see that the tuning should unduly influence the general technique, and while some mods are needed, I feel I probably gain as much as I lose.
I also have the Gerry McGee Mad forTrad tutorial, but found it of limited use for what I want to do, because it uses a different tuning and it focuses on strumming. I really want to stick with ADAe unless anyone can give me a really watertight reason why I shouldn't...
The instrument, FWIW, is a long-scale Hathway, so it's a fine bit of kit - I just need to get the most out of it.
Many thanks for any help/suggestions/obeservations.
"It's also important not to forget that even if you're playing countermelody, you're still a rhythm player, and you need to make your counterpoint nice and punchy and spiky and rhythmic. Listen to Alec Finn who is brilliant at this. A lot of players seem to use hammer-ons to fill in the 3rds like this: K: Dmaj |[D2A2]d2 (DF)d2|(DF)d>A G2d>A|D... You often find that in dorian tunes etc the 3rd won't be present in the tune and it's important to respond to that. I sometimes hammer-on the 4th or 2nd in cases like these."
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
maybe I can help...counterpoint is simply two or more voices in motion. The rules of counterpoint came into being long before chords were even really thought about much. The vertical harmonies were incidental to the motion of the lines. This would be natural in choral music.
what it seemed like to me was that he was using melodic fragments to fill in space in the texture. Counterpoint often uses contrary motion, which really wasn't what he was doing alot of. It was a very nice and very well played backing, but you can use partial chords and diatonic notes as passing tones and things like that with the zook and they sound full because of the double strings. So not everything was a full chord, but that doesn't force you to think contrapuntally at all.
so I think he was mostly hinting at the chords and using passing tones and using fragments of the melody...and he did a very nice job. Still, you can never say for sure what someone's thought processes were, but I don't think you need to think contrapuntally to play a sublte texture like he did. You probably could, but you don't need to
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Dr. Dow also points out in that same post that a lot of the recorded counterpoint we hear on albums is worked out in advance. I'm sure that doing that a lot would add to the ability of being able to do it on the fly. I've found I use certain rudimentary runs and whatnot frequently on the guitar when accompanying myself singing, for example.
The bouzouki/guitar player in our band does just that. He falls into patterns that's he's used over and over, switching them up on the fly, with vastly more skill and experience than I have!
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Thanks for all that so far, I'm sure there's more to come! I will look at those threads in more detail later... I was particularly curious about what he is doing at around 4'40" on that orginal clip.
Maybe it isn't really counterpoint that I am talking about - I used to do a lot of choral singing, so understand the idea, and am reasonably able to dream up a planned counter-meoldy, but this comment struck me from another thread:
>>Personally, I use my ears (and my fingers) and don't consciously "think" about what I'm doing .
I think that is surely a better approach than planning everything too carefully? Quite often, I can come up with a counter-riff, but I have the problem of never being able to remember it two minutes later... and sometimes it simply doesn't work.
So (other than the fact that the estimable Mr. Dooley clearly has a better memory than I do when it comes to repeating what he did last time) what is the view as to how pre-meditated it all is/was?
And also, his right-hand technique certainly isn't a plain strum for much of the time. Any more comments?
Thanks
Ian
p.s. update on my original 'lack of sessions' moan - have finally tracked down a reasonably local one, have talked to the organiser on the phone this evening and am looking forward to a good three hours' worth on Sunday evening
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
I am almost certain that everything Eamonn Doorley has recorded with Julie Fowlis is pre-arranged. But you'd have to ask him how he devised the different phrases, runs, licks etc. for each song and how long it took him. Nate's assessment of what he was doing in the recording is spot on. It sounds great but truly improvising counter-melody is really I High Art, I think, and takes vigorous practice, knowing one's instrument (playing what you think), and a reasonbly good understanding of music theory.
You should check out Chris Smith's (the Coyote Banjo guy, if I'm not mistaken) Celtic Back-up for All Instrumentalists from Mel Bay. Great book for really learning how countermelody works in Trad and the music theory is not too difficult.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Personally I use what knowledge I have of harmony to improvise for tunes in a session. This didn't just happen though I had a couple years of playing flute under my belt and a good understanding of trad music and how it works before I could do that with any decency. If I am singing a song myself I will have something worked out in advance, if someone else is then I will follow what they are doing if they are backing themselves if not then I will do the improvisational thing there as well. As for Eamon's playing I have it on good authority that he 'studied' Alec Finn's playing.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Listen again to what he's doing on that song. I don't know if I'd call it counterpoint, especially, but lot of the time he's picking out the main note in a particular phrase and finding an interesting way to meet the melody there.
If you want to pick up this style, listen to tunes and try to pick out that core note at any given moment. Over time, you'll find it's easier to find. I don't necessarily think any player is thinking about that while they're playing, but it's a good way to get to a point where you can hear it on the fly, without having to think about it.
The little interlude with the guitarist between the strathspeys and the reels is certainly worked out ahead, and you'll find variations on that on most ensemble albums. Break, vamp on a chord, burst into the new rhythm. Unfortunately I couldn't really listen much past the start of the tune because the bodhran got annoying, but that's what was going on at 4:40.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
I would advise you not to stick with one particular tuning - you mention ADAE as your preferred tuning, and it's very useful, of course. But if you want to play in G, then GDAD gives you that lovely low bass note you can use as a drone (or pedal note) while you jump about, up and down the neck. It is also very useful for playing minor 7ths and 6ths and major 7ths, on top of your chord (mostly, but don't neglect your inner 'voices' on your 2nd and 3rd strings) and playing chords up the scale (G Am Bm C D Em etc) on your G string.
I would also advise GDAE and studying American mando players who cross-pick (like Jessie McReyolds). Playing in higher positions, round the 12th fret and working down and across can give an effective illusion of 'counterpoint". Also good for learning the fingerboard and developing 'theory' of harmony/counterpoint (which is useful to know). Applicable to GDAD/ADAE too, of course.
And carry on studying Andy Irvine - listen and watch. Andy 'wrote the book' on this kind of style. I believe, when he started, he based it on American-style 'brush' licks, derived from Carter family guitar style and others.
Don't get stuck in first position, and use a capo as little as you can!
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Spot on JIm. ( Are you at the Cellar this Saturday ? )
And don't forget that Andy can play the tunes too - if you know the tunes, as well as a chordal accompaniment, you're halfway to where you're trying to get to.
If you are not sure what tuning you are in, you may need a lot more work. The counterpoint thing is simple. Choosing where to apply it and how is the difficult part. that'll come with practice I guess.
Tune up - get a capo and play a long to your video. over and over again. Thats how you'll learn. There aint any shortcuts!
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Agreed about the rhythm which is massively important, knowing the tunes helps enormously and gives you all you need with regard to rhythm etc to accompany.
One thing to work on is your picking - it sounds obvious but hammer-ons etc come a lot easier when you've got your picking down. For me, that meant sitting on the sofa doing it real slow until one day I realised i could do it at full speed. Then the real fun begins!
Listen to the Frankie Gavin and Alec Finn album for how it should be done - your own style will develop in time.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
O.K., many thanks all, for the various comments - a lot to think about, but here comes the real ignoramus bit: all this talk of studying the playing of X puzzles me - just where/how do you do it?
I have got a pretty reasonable collection of CD's, but there isn't exactly a lot of video out there of a lot of these players. Thanks for the various links btw, but I have never found it at all easy to watch/listen to another player are work out how they are doing it - especially in a band situation where you are also trying to separate out the various instruments into the bargain. I spent some time watching Andy Irvine on various clips this evenig, but I can't for the life of me work out what he is doing most of the time....
All the talk of jumping up and down the neck also puzzles me - doing what, exactly? Yes, I have some chord inversions up there, but is that it? And I have no idea what vamping is...Riff, I can just about understand, but how on earth do you a) work them out if you don't have a tame tune player to bounce off, and b) then remember them five minutes later?
I do have a good tune knowledge (being primarily a tune player) which helps, and I have just ordered the Mel Bay book. Maybe I'm just a numpty when it comes to this side of things...
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Howdy (again), Ian - I studied various players I admired by going to their gigs, and listening to their recordings - with Dylan, I only had the chance to listen to recordings. But I learned a lot of basic music from Dylan.
You have to learn to listen - which you can only do by doing it. Over and over again. Slow stuff down if you need to - I appreciate it's not always easy to pick out the part you want in a group recording.
As for 'jumping', well, I didn't mean to give the impression of a cat on a hot tin roof - you can slink up and down if you like. But what it's really about is exploring and learning the fingerboard and associating sounds with positions ... and so on.
There is not short cut for most of us - and ask yourself: why am I doing this? When you have to learn it, you will.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Here's a very abstract description of the procedure:
1) play a lot on the instrument, by yourself. Figure out what sounds are where, and which ones seem to work together well.
2) listen to players you like, and see if you hear anything like what you discovered in step 1. When you do, listen to that a bunch until it's in your head.
3) Repeat step 1, looking for what you heard in step 2.
Loop on steps 2 and 3 until you think you've got some of the tricks of the players that you like.
That'll give you at least some vocabulary to work with. It won't teach you a lot about where to apply those things or how they work, but it's something to work with anyway.
You can also add an optional step 0:
0) Learn the basics of scales and chords, and learn the D and G scales all over your instrument.
Memorizing the scales from some source is less helpful than learning the pattern and deriving them for yourself, and likewise memorizing the chords is not very helpful compared to figuring out what the notes of a particular chord must be. And in the same vein, once you've worked out the chords on your own, mapping them out on the fretboard is again much more useful than referring to a chord chart. By the time you've done all that, you'll know some useful stuff about the way the music works, and it'll be solidly in your head.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Hello Jim and Jon, thanks both. I will keep at it, after all I've not had the bouzouki long (though I have been playing guitar - badly - for over 30 years).
It stikes me that there might be an aptitude or mindset issue here - as I said, I have never really got on with the guitar, whereas I took very easily to the mandolin. Perhaps the difference of approach between melody playing (where you have a basic 'program(me)' , i.e. tune, to follow) is more different than appears from accompaniment where you need to innovate more?
The fact that the instruments are in the same familiy disguises very different techniques/purposes, of course. And I wonder whether my early musical life in the classical idiom set up a not entirely helpful line of thought...
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Ian, I think I can answer this one. It's all in the right hand! The resulting effect can only be achieved with a relaxed, consistent up-down strum that is controlled for degree of swing and also the notes you choose to accent while de-accenting the sympathetic drone strings. The drone strings can be brushed against or caught slightly with the pick (mostly by accident) or deliberately/accidentally NOT struck so you get like a "ghost" strum to create rhythms that are syncopated in different ways. Most of the time he's simply picking out the melody THROUGH his constant strum, with the very occasional hammer-on or snippet of counterpoint to fill in the gaps between the melodic phrases. When you hear it, it sounds really complicated and hard to do but it's actually not. It's not something that's easily explained in words so if I have time tomorrow I'll do a video that might help and send you a link.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Oh and a good way to choose which harmony notes to play is only play the 3rd if the 3rd isn't being sounded in the melody. The fillers he's using are often snippets of scales. I can also hear him sometimes alternating between emphasizing the bass strings and then picking out the treble, but it's still essential to keep the same basic, relaxed up-down strum, even if you're only hitting one note on one stroke.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Ian - yes, mindset has a lot to do with it. It's the 'inner game'. I remember John Hartford (RIP) in an interview saying that one of the ways to learn is just to pretend you can already do it, and dive in! You need to take that with the proverbial pinch, but there's some truth in it. I avoided going up the dusty end of the fiddle for years, thinking "oh, that's for proper players, not the likes of me'. Then it occurred to me that I could learn to do it - I had learned to play in higher positions on mandolin and guitar, so ... up I went, and some days it's almost in tune! Next task is to learn to play double-stops in tune up the neck.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Thanks, Dr Dow. I would really appreciate that if you have the time. That would at least help the technique - as you say, it's difficult to explain. Then it would at least only be a problem of application.
The vast majority of 'technique' clips I watch seem to show people struggling vastly to explain (or even understand themselves) exactly what they are actually doing!
I think it's the very relaxed and melodic style that he has that appeals to me.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
For a start he's got his bouzouki tuned GDAD and capoed at the 8th fret = EBF#B, which gives you a nice open power chord of B on the 3 upper courses of strings. The reason he can relax and strum at any volume on any notes of the open power chord without worrying about hitting the bottom E is that every time he goes back to the open chord he's muting the bass course with the middle finger of his left hand.
Another to remember is, don't underestimate the effect of the guitar on the other side of the stage. The guitarist might be playing really quietly to allow the bouzouki to be foregrounded, but since they're playing the same pre-arranged chord progressions, anything the guitarist plays is going to provide a nice wash of full, bassy colour. This means that the bouzouki doesn't have to work hard at all to sound nice. He can play off the wash of colour really easily picking out the odd accented 3rd here, a bit of scale there... and whatever he does it's going to sound great. It gives the bouzouki a deceptively full sound - fuller than if he were just playing solo accompaniment. Listen really carefully from about 1:40 to 2:00. The bouzouki is picking out a harmony up high in single notes and it's the guitar that's providing most of the chordal wash.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
The trick to getting the relaxed strum is a relaxed wrist on your right hand and a bit of swing in the rhythm so that your upstrokes are a bit shorter than your downstrokes. This gives you have time to allow gravity to let your downstrokes travel far enough to accent the notes in the way you want before your hand has to come back up again on the upstroke.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Many thanks for that analysis - very useful. The bit about the guitar/bouzouki combination had occurred to me, some of the rest, not. I will come back to you on some of this if I may - have been working very hard on it all this afternoon. It's a lot easier to do while multi-tracking with my little desk, as it gives you something to experiment against. The strumming is getting better - part of the problem there is that I haven't really played rhythm for years.
But meanwhile, this clip bears you out. Very interesting as they are unplugged, and a strangely touching little 'catch', too...
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
It occurs to me that part of the original question is "How do I play it just like the other guy ?"
Personally, I think that's both flattering, but also deadening.
You need to find your own ways to do good, interesting, stuff. Just to do it like someone else is copying - I know that lots of artists, from jazz musicians to painters, do part of their development by copying what some great, established, maybe dead, artist has already done, but ultimately you must find your own path.
By all means watch, listen, but also experiment for yourself. You can't be, can't have, the same background and learning experiences as any other artist, so just do your best.
This doesn't mean go ahead without any comparison to anyone else, just be aware of where you are trying to copy, trying to learn, trying to innovate.
Many years ago, one of the students at my college announced that he was playing a new sort of music that was not based on anything before ( incidentally we weren't a music college ). To me it sounded discordant and unpleasant. I have to say that he never achieved anything with his music, because, I feel, it had no roots.
So, there you have it. You need to be both creative, yet aware of your roots. Don't copy, strive to be better.
I feel philosophical now.......
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Ian, you don't HAVE to change from ADAe but if you don't drop your top E down to a D, you won't be able to do the stuff Doorley does on the vid, which needs a top drone string. Hopefully you'll see what I mean from my vid (I've sent you a link) - good luck.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Hello Dow, I can see that and have saved to favourites for further study
Many thanks - I think that is going to be more help than anything I have yet found. Much appreciated.
I re-made the Kesh Jig etc. yesterday, trying to put more bouzouki in - just chords on that, but trying to develop rhythm and more inversions. It's on http://www.myspace.com/547351902 if you're curious. What you demonstrated is much more where I want to go, though.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Pete, a very good point, timely made and well taken! I am not trying to copy E.D., but I do find his style attractive, so it's a good starting point. As you say, come what may, everyone sounds different. Given the lack of classical-style orthodoxy, I guess that copying others is how most people learn - indeed in all styles. Especially in an aural tradition, that is surely as it should be?
Please bear in mind that it wasn't intended as an instructional video for public consumption - just as a quick demo for Ian. If I'd known more people would want to see it, I would have spent some time on it and sat up properly instead of slouching on the bed half horizontally!
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Thanks Dow, that is very much appreciated.
I'm only really an occasional zouk/OM player, usually borrowed down the pub and always tunes plays in GDAE. I've never been much of an accompianist, never played guitar etc.
I'll need to change my cheap zouk to GDAD and mess about with this. You are getting an amazingly full sound there from something you are managing to make seem quite simple (still more than likely beyond my capabilities mind)
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Now that the OP's original inquiry has received pretty thorough treatment, does anyone know the title of any of the tunes in the OP's referenced youtube?
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
"a headless dow doctor". Yes. Another great Aussie legend!
excellent stuff, dd. more of the same or similar would be very welcome and helpful globally, I would think.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Hi Ron, it's not what Sobell calls his cittern - a term which he strictly reserves for his 10 string octave mandolins with a slightly longer scale length than mine. Mine is a 10 string mandola which many other people would just call a cittern. I tune it GDAda, but for this video I thought it would be confusing to have a top "a" drone as well so I tuned the top course down to top "d". In messing about with the tuning, I managed to break one of the top strings and almost take my eye out, leaving me with a 9-stringed 10-string mandola. The strings are so old that they're slightly sticky and keep going out of tune (which is never usually a problem with my instrument). The strings must be about 4 years old because it's about that long since I last played the thing. They buzz a bit but still sound ok cause the quality of the craftmanship is good, obviously.
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Thanks for that Dow. It's a shame to have good instruments lying about unused - and I'm guilty of that myself, as I have a Fylde cittern, which I'd love to play - but I never seem to have the time to play the fiddle or guitar, let alone the cittern (which has an absolutely brilliant tone).
Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Apologies if the subject matter is wearisome - I've been trawling through the large back-catalogue of bouzouki threads, but...
Can anyone explain to me, please, the basics of Eamonn Doorley's playing style, as seen quite well in this clip of Julie Fowlis? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgIZVZf9B5c
I assume that it is a form of counterpoint interspersed with bits of melody and some chords, but I really can't see where he is getting it from. I also read Han's pages on this, and he seems to be saying that you either literally have to plan the whole counterpoint thing bar by bar, or simply improvise. All well and good, but I can't yet discern exactly what the actual technique is, especially right hand and choice of which strings he is hitting and why...
Some time ago, I pestered Andy Irvine in person via email - he was very good-humoured at replying, but quite understandably declined to give away *his* technique either
I normally use ADAe (think that's right) as for my octave mandola, and currently have two courses of octave strings, which I quite like. I find that this gives good melody potential and still produces comfortable, good-sounding chords in most of the range. I have a reasonable and growing chord repertoire in that tuning, but the whole point of buying the bouzouki was for the fill-in. I can't see that the tuning should unduly influence the general technique, and while some mods are needed, I feel I probably gain as much as I lose.
I also have the Gerry McGee Mad forTrad tutorial, but found it of limited use for what I want to do, because it uses a different tuning and it focuses on strumming. I really want to stick with ADAe unless anyone can give me a really watertight reason why I shouldn't...
The instrument, FWIW, is a long-scale Hathway, so it's a fine bit of kit - I just need to get the most out of it.
Many thanks for any help/suggestions/obeservations.
Ian
# Posted on September 9th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Hey Ian, sure you saw these already:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4355
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7445
This seems insightful:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7445#comment163946
"It's also important not to forget that even if you're playing countermelody, you're still a rhythm player, and you need to make your counterpoint nice and punchy and spiky and rhythmic. Listen to Alec Finn who is brilliant at this. A lot of players seem to use hammer-ons to fill in the 3rds like this: K: Dmaj |[D2A2]d2 (DF)d2|(DF)d>A G2d>A|D... You often find that in dorian tunes etc the 3rd won't be present in the tune and it's important to respond to that. I sometimes hammer-on the 4th or 2nd in cases like these."
# Posted on September 9th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
That last cite was: "Posted on September 6th 2005 by Dr. Dow"
# Posted on September 9th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
maybe I can help...counterpoint is simply two or more voices in motion. The rules of counterpoint came into being long before chords were even really thought about much. The vertical harmonies were incidental to the motion of the lines. This would be natural in choral music.
what it seemed like to me was that he was using melodic fragments to fill in space in the texture. Counterpoint often uses contrary motion, which really wasn't what he was doing alot of. It was a very nice and very well played backing, but you can use partial chords and diatonic notes as passing tones and things like that with the zook and they sound full because of the double strings. So not everything was a full chord, but that doesn't force you to think contrapuntally at all.
so I think he was mostly hinting at the chords and using passing tones and using fragments of the melody...and he did a very nice job. Still, you can never say for sure what someone's thought processes were, but I don't think you need to think contrapuntally to play a sublte texture like he did. You probably could, but you don't need to
# Posted on September 9th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
This is a bit clearer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2aQd4UWjIo&feature=related
# Posted on September 9th 2010 by SouPa
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Dr. Dow also points out in that same post that a lot of the recorded counterpoint we hear on albums is worked out in advance. I'm sure that doing that a lot would add to the ability of being able to do it on the fly. I've found I use certain rudimentary runs and whatnot frequently on the guitar when accompanying myself singing, for example.
The bouzouki/guitar player in our band does just that. He falls into patterns that's he's used over and over, switching them up on the fly, with vastly more skill and experience than I have!
# Posted on September 9th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
JS Bach did the same thing. He had counterpoint "licks" that he used over and over again, too.
# Posted on September 9th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Thanks for all that so far, I'm sure there's more to come! I will look at those threads in more detail later... I was particularly curious about what he is doing at around 4'40" on that orginal clip.
Maybe it isn't really counterpoint that I am talking about - I used to do a lot of choral singing, so understand the idea, and am reasonably able to dream up a planned counter-meoldy, but this comment struck me from another thread:
>>Personally, I use my ears (and my fingers) and don't consciously "think" about what I'm doing .
I think that is surely a better approach than planning everything too carefully? Quite often, I can come up with a counter-riff, but I have the problem of never being able to remember it two minutes later... and sometimes it simply doesn't work.
So (other than the fact that the estimable Mr. Dooley clearly has a better memory than I do when it comes to repeating what he did last time) what is the view as to how pre-meditated it all is/was?
And also, his right-hand technique certainly isn't a plain strum for much of the time. Any more comments?
Thanks
Ian
p.s. update on my original 'lack of sessions' moan - have finally tracked down a reasonably local one, have talked to the organiser on the phone this evening and am looking forward to a good three hours' worth on Sunday evening
# Posted on September 9th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
I am almost certain that everything Eamonn Doorley has recorded with Julie Fowlis is pre-arranged. But you'd have to ask him how he devised the different phrases, runs, licks etc. for each song and how long it took him. Nate's assessment of what he was doing in the recording is spot on. It sounds great but truly improvising counter-melody is really I High Art, I think, and takes vigorous practice, knowing one's instrument (playing what you think), and a reasonbly good understanding of music theory.
Another good example would be Donal Lunny's bouzouki playing the in Bothy song "Sixteen Come Next Sunday": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SYjskl3uaE
You should check out Chris Smith's (the Coyote Banjo guy, if I'm not mistaken) Celtic Back-up for All Instrumentalists from Mel Bay. Great book for really learning how countermelody works in Trad and the music theory is not too difficult.
# Posted on September 9th 2010 by seán_óg
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Personally I use what knowledge I have of harmony to improvise for tunes in a session. This didn't just happen though I had a couple years of playing flute under my belt and a good understanding of trad music and how it works before I could do that with any decency. If I am singing a song myself I will have something worked out in advance, if someone else is then I will follow what they are doing if they are backing themselves if not then I will do the improvisational thing there as well. As for Eamon's playing I have it on good authority that he 'studied' Alec Finn's playing.
# Posted on September 9th 2010 by Why Bother?
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
I agree with the recommendation of Chris Smith's book. And I am sure that Mr. Doorley didn't just wander into the studio and start jamming away!
# Posted on September 10th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Listen again to what he's doing on that song. I don't know if I'd call it counterpoint, especially, but lot of the time he's picking out the main note in a particular phrase and finding an interesting way to meet the melody there.
If you want to pick up this style, listen to tunes and try to pick out that core note at any given moment. Over time, you'll find it's easier to find. I don't necessarily think any player is thinking about that while they're playing, but it's a good way to get to a point where you can hear it on the fly, without having to think about it.
The little interlude with the guitarist between the strathspeys and the reels is certainly worked out ahead, and you'll find variations on that on most ensemble albums. Break, vamp on a chord, burst into the new rhythm. Unfortunately I couldn't really listen much past the start of the tune because the bodhran got annoying, but that's what was going on at 4:40.
# Posted on September 10th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
I would advise you not to stick with one particular tuning - you mention ADAE as your preferred tuning, and it's very useful, of course. But if you want to play in G, then GDAD gives you that lovely low bass note you can use as a drone (or pedal note) while you jump about, up and down the neck. It is also very useful for playing minor 7ths and 6ths and major 7ths, on top of your chord (mostly, but don't neglect your inner 'voices' on your 2nd and 3rd strings) and playing chords up the scale (G Am Bm C D Em etc) on your G string.
I would also advise GDAE and studying American mando players who cross-pick (like Jessie McReyolds). Playing in higher positions, round the 12th fret and working down and across can give an effective illusion of 'counterpoint". Also good for learning the fingerboard and developing 'theory' of harmony/counterpoint (which is useful to know). Applicable to GDAD/ADAE too, of course.
And carry on studying Andy Irvine - listen and watch. Andy 'wrote the book' on this kind of style. I believe, when he started, he based it on American-style 'brush' licks, derived from Carter family guitar style and others.
Don't get stuck in first position, and use a capo as little as you can!
# Posted on September 10th 2010 by Jim Younger
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Spot on JIm. ( Are you at the Cellar this Saturday ? )
And don't forget that Andy can play the tunes too - if you know the tunes, as well as a chordal accompaniment, you're halfway to where you're trying to get to.
# Posted on September 10th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
I keep coming back to this one recently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCHtltbv9dc
::
If you are not sure what tuning you are in, you may need a lot more work. The counterpoint thing is simple. Choosing where to apply it and how is the difficult part. that'll come with practice I guess.
Tune up - get a capo and play a long to your video. over and over again. Thats how you'll learn. There aint any shortcuts!
# Posted on September 10th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Agreed about the rhythm which is massively important, knowing the tunes helps enormously and gives you all you need with regard to rhythm etc to accompany.
One thing to work on is your picking - it sounds obvious but hammer-ons etc come a lot easier when you've got your picking down. For me, that meant sitting on the sofa doing it real slow until one day I realised i could do it at full speed. Then the real fun begins!
Listen to the Frankie Gavin and Alec Finn album for how it should be done - your own style will develop in time.
# Posted on September 10th 2010 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Jesse McReynolds cross picking workshop, check out the zoomed in look at 3:00 or so:
http://tinyurl.com/339klh5
# Posted on September 10th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
I just do my best to play in unison with the melody. The counterpoint just sort of happens by accident.
(Is that bad?)
# Posted on September 10th 2010 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Get outta here SE FL, this is the beginner class.
# Posted on September 10th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Seriously though, I wish you could tell us what you do!
# Posted on September 10th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
O.K., many thanks all, for the various comments - a lot to think about, but here comes the real ignoramus bit: all this talk of studying the playing of X puzzles me - just where/how do you do it?
I have got a pretty reasonable collection of CD's, but there isn't exactly a lot of video out there of a lot of these players. Thanks for the various links btw, but I have never found it at all easy to watch/listen to another player are work out how they are doing it - especially in a band situation where you are also trying to separate out the various instruments into the bargain. I spent some time watching Andy Irvine on various clips this evenig, but I can't for the life of me work out what he is doing most of the time....
All the talk of jumping up and down the neck also puzzles me - doing what, exactly? Yes, I have some chord inversions up there, but is that it? And I have no idea what vamping is...Riff, I can just about understand, but how on earth do you a) work them out if you don't have a tame tune player to bounce off, and b) then remember them five minutes later?
I do have a good tune knowledge (being primarily a tune player) which helps, and I have just ordered the Mel Bay book. Maybe I'm just a numpty when it comes to this side of things...
# Posted on September 10th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Howdy (again), Ian - I studied various players I admired by going to their gigs, and listening to their recordings - with Dylan, I only had the chance to listen to recordings. But I learned a lot of basic music from Dylan.
You have to learn to listen - which you can only do by doing it. Over and over again. Slow stuff down if you need to - I appreciate it's not always easy to pick out the part you want in a group recording.
As for 'jumping', well, I didn't mean to give the impression of a cat on a hot tin roof - you can slink up and down if you like. But what it's really about is exploring and learning the fingerboard and associating sounds with positions ... and so on.
There is not short cut for most of us - and ask yourself: why am I doing this? When you have to learn it, you will.
# Posted on September 11th 2010 by Jim Younger
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Here's a very abstract description of the procedure:
1) play a lot on the instrument, by yourself. Figure out what sounds are where, and which ones seem to work together well.
2) listen to players you like, and see if you hear anything like what you discovered in step 1. When you do, listen to that a bunch until it's in your head.
3) Repeat step 1, looking for what you heard in step 2.
Loop on steps 2 and 3 until you think you've got some of the tricks of the players that you like.
That'll give you at least some vocabulary to work with. It won't teach you a lot about where to apply those things or how they work, but it's something to work with anyway.
You can also add an optional step 0:
0) Learn the basics of scales and chords, and learn the D and G scales all over your instrument.
Memorizing the scales from some source is less helpful than learning the pattern and deriving them for yourself, and likewise memorizing the chords is not very helpful compared to figuring out what the notes of a particular chord must be. And in the same vein, once you've worked out the chords on your own, mapping them out on the fretboard is again much more useful than referring to a chord chart. By the time you've done all that, you'll know some useful stuff about the way the music works, and it'll be solidly in your head.
# Posted on September 11th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Hello Jim and Jon, thanks both. I will keep at it, after all I've not had the bouzouki long (though I have been playing guitar - badly - for over 30 years).
It stikes me that there might be an aptitude or mindset issue here - as I said, I have never really got on with the guitar, whereas I took very easily to the mandolin. Perhaps the difference of approach between melody playing (where you have a basic 'program(me)' , i.e. tune, to follow) is more different than appears from accompaniment where you need to innovate more?
The fact that the instruments are in the same familiy disguises very different techniques/purposes, of course. And I wonder whether my early musical life in the classical idiom set up a not entirely helpful line of thought...
Thanks again for your comments.
Ian
# Posted on September 11th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Ian, I think I can answer this one. It's all in the right hand! The resulting effect can only be achieved with a relaxed, consistent up-down strum that is controlled for degree of swing and also the notes you choose to accent while de-accenting the sympathetic drone strings. The drone strings can be brushed against or caught slightly with the pick (mostly by accident) or deliberately/accidentally NOT struck so you get like a "ghost" strum to create rhythms that are syncopated in different ways. Most of the time he's simply picking out the melody THROUGH his constant strum, with the very occasional hammer-on or snippet of counterpoint to fill in the gaps between the melodic phrases. When you hear it, it sounds really complicated and hard to do but it's actually not. It's not something that's easily explained in words so if I have time tomorrow I'll do a video that might help and send you a link.
# Posted on September 11th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Oh and a good way to choose which harmony notes to play is only play the 3rd if the 3rd isn't being sounded in the melody. The fillers he's using are often snippets of scales. I can also hear him sometimes alternating between emphasizing the bass strings and then picking out the treble, but it's still essential to keep the same basic, relaxed up-down strum, even if you're only hitting one note on one stroke.
# Posted on September 11th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Ian - yes, mindset has a lot to do with it. It's the 'inner game'. I remember John Hartford (RIP) in an interview saying that one of the ways to learn is just to pretend you can already do it, and dive in! You need to take that with the proverbial pinch, but there's some truth in it. I avoided going up the dusty end of the fiddle for years, thinking "oh, that's for proper players, not the likes of me'. Then it occurred to me that I could learn to do it - I had learned to play in higher positions on mandolin and guitar, so ... up I went, and some days it's almost in tune! Next task is to learn to play double-stops in tune up the neck.
And Dr. Dow gives good advice.
Best of luck with it - and lots of fun.
# Posted on September 11th 2010 by Jim Younger
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Thanks, Dr Dow. I would really appreciate that if you have the time. That would at least help the technique - as you say, it's difficult to explain. Then it would at least only be a problem of application.
The vast majority of 'technique' clips I watch seem to show people struggling vastly to explain (or even understand themselves) exactly what they are actually doing!
I think it's the very relaxed and melodic style that he has that appeals to me.
# Posted on September 11th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
For a start he's got his bouzouki tuned GDAD and capoed at the 8th fret = EBF#B, which gives you a nice open power chord of B on the 3 upper courses of strings. The reason he can relax and strum at any volume on any notes of the open power chord without worrying about hitting the bottom E is that every time he goes back to the open chord he's muting the bass course with the middle finger of his left hand.
Another to remember is, don't underestimate the effect of the guitar on the other side of the stage. The guitarist might be playing really quietly to allow the bouzouki to be foregrounded, but since they're playing the same pre-arranged chord progressions, anything the guitarist plays is going to provide a nice wash of full, bassy colour. This means that the bouzouki doesn't have to work hard at all to sound nice. He can play off the wash of colour really easily picking out the odd accented 3rd here, a bit of scale there... and whatever he does it's going to sound great. It gives the bouzouki a deceptively full sound - fuller than if he were just playing solo accompaniment. Listen really carefully from about 1:40 to 2:00. The bouzouki is picking out a harmony up high in single notes and it's the guitar that's providing most of the chordal wash.
# Posted on September 11th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
The trick to getting the relaxed strum is a relaxed wrist on your right hand and a bit of swing in the rhythm so that your upstrokes are a bit shorter than your downstrokes. This gives you have time to allow gravity to let your downstrokes travel far enough to accent the notes in the way you want before your hand has to come back up again on the upstroke.
LOL nah it's too hard to explain in words!
# Posted on September 11th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Many thanks for that analysis - very useful. The bit about the guitar/bouzouki combination had occurred to me, some of the rest, not. I will come back to you on some of this if I may - have been working very hard on it all this afternoon. It's a lot easier to do while multi-tracking with my little desk, as it gives you something to experiment against. The strumming is getting better - part of the problem there is that I haven't really played rhythm for years.
But meanwhile, this clip bears you out. Very interesting as they are unplugged, and a strangely touching little 'catch', too...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ25D0QwcqA
Ian
# Posted on September 11th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
It occurs to me that part of the original question is "How do I play it just like the other guy ?"
Personally, I think that's both flattering, but also deadening.
You need to find your own ways to do good, interesting, stuff. Just to do it like someone else is copying - I know that lots of artists, from jazz musicians to painters, do part of their development by copying what some great, established, maybe dead, artist has already done, but ultimately you must find your own path.
By all means watch, listen, but also experiment for yourself. You can't be, can't have, the same background and learning experiences as any other artist, so just do your best.
This doesn't mean go ahead without any comparison to anyone else, just be aware of where you are trying to copy, trying to learn, trying to innovate.
Many years ago, one of the students at my college announced that he was playing a new sort of music that was not based on anything before ( incidentally we weren't a music college ). To me it sounded discordant and unpleasant. I have to say that he never achieved anything with his music, because, I feel, it had no roots.
So, there you have it. You need to be both creative, yet aware of your roots. Don't copy, strive to be better.
I feel philosophical now.......
# Posted on September 11th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Ian, you don't HAVE to change from ADAe but if you don't drop your top E down to a D, you won't be able to do the stuff Doorley does on the vid, which needs a top drone string. Hopefully you'll see what I mean from my vid (I've sent you a link) - good luck.
# Posted on September 12th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Hello Dow, I can see that and have saved to favourites for further study
Many thanks - I think that is going to be more help than anything I have yet found. Much appreciated.
I re-made the Kesh Jig etc. yesterday, trying to put more bouzouki in - just chords on that, but trying to develop rhythm and more inversions. It's on http://www.myspace.com/547351902 if you're curious. What you demonstrated is much more where I want to go, though.
Ian
# Posted on September 12th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Pete, a very good point, timely made and well taken! I am not trying to copy E.D., but I do find his style attractive, so it's a good starting point. As you say, come what may, everyone sounds different. Given the lack of classical-style orthodoxy, I guess that copying others is how most people learn - indeed in all styles. Especially in an aural tradition, that is surely as it should be?
Ian
# Posted on September 12th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Er, Dr. Dow I'd love to see your video too. Any chance of a link?
# Posted on September 12th 2010 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Likewise
# Posted on September 12th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Dow, why don't you just post it here? the people have spoken
# Posted on September 12th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Yes, Dr.Dow, we would like to see the video.
# Posted on September 13th 2010 by hotspur
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Sorry, the link is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2jF3e4Ap1A
Please bear in mind that it wasn't intended as an instructional video for public consumption - just as a quick demo for Ian. If I'd known more people would want to see it, I would have spent some time on it and sat up properly instead of slouching on the bed half horizontally!
# Posted on September 13th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Thanks Dow, that is very much appreciated.
I'm only really an occasional zouk/OM player, usually borrowed down the pub and always tunes plays in GDAE. I've never been much of an accompianist, never played guitar etc.
I'll need to change my cheap zouk to GDAD and mess about with this. You are getting an amazingly full sound there from something you are managing to make seem quite simple (still more than likely beyond my capabilities mind)
Cheers - chris
# Posted on September 13th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Thanks very much Dow! Excellent video.
# Posted on September 13th 2010 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
>>you are managing to make *seem* quite simple
That's my worry too
Ian
# Posted on September 13th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Thanks Doc Dow!
# Posted on September 13th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Now that the OP's original inquiry has received pretty thorough treatment, does anyone know the title of any of the tunes in the OP's referenced youtube?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgIZVZf9B5c
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by ceciltguitar
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
A headless Dow! There are legends about such things. Nice job.
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
"a headless dow doctor". Yes. Another great Aussie legend!
excellent stuff, dd. more of the same or similar would be very welcome and helpful globally, I would think.
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
>>>"A headless Dow!"
Yeah I still want to be able to turn up to the Folkworks kids' session one day and annoy them without being recognised
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Hi Dow, I had a look at your wee video - nicely explained. I'm sure it's helped a number of people - thanks.
One question I have though, is that I note that you're playing a Sobell cittern - how do you have it tuned?
Thanks,
Ron
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by On Sabbatical
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Ceciltguitar - tune names appear at 3'07"
Lady Seaforth
Cutty's Wedding
Macfarlane's
Duntroon
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by ian stock
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Ian,
Thank you!
I missed the titles , as I was not seated in front of my computer screen for a good part of the time that I listened.
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by ceciltguitar
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Thanks Prof Dow! Great video and an encouragement for me to get my bouzouki out of hibernation.
# Posted on September 14th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Hi Ron, it's not what Sobell calls his cittern - a term which he strictly reserves for his 10 string octave mandolins with a slightly longer scale length than mine. Mine is a 10 string mandola which many other people would just call a cittern. I tune it GDAda, but for this video I thought it would be confusing to have a top "a" drone as well so I tuned the top course down to top "d". In messing about with the tuning, I managed to break one of the top strings and almost take my eye out, leaving me with a 9-stringed 10-string mandola. The strings are so old that they're slightly sticky and keep going out of tune (which is never usually a problem with my instrument). The strings must be about 4 years old because it's about that long since I last played the thing. They buzz a bit but still sound ok cause the quality of the craftmanship is good, obviously.
# Posted on September 15th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not another bouzouki technique discussion... re Eamonn Doorley/counterpoint
Thanks for that Dow. It's a shame to have good instruments lying about unused - and I'm guilty of that myself, as I have a Fylde cittern, which I'd love to play - but I never seem to have the time to play the fiddle or guitar, let alone the cittern (which has an absolutely brilliant tone).
But, c'est la vie....
# Posted on September 15th 2010 by On Sabbatical