The Session >> Discussions >> WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
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WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Curious to hear diverse thoughts and perspectives on this.
I especially enjoy listening to solo musicians playing this music--the nuances come out crisp and clear, and the player is free to roam and truly "play." Back in June I stood mesmerized for nearly two hours as Martin Hayes, alone on stage, ricocheted through tunes like a hot spark in a fireworks factory. I've heard John Carty and Kevin Burke and others do similar solo extended flights, and some solo recordings (notably of Bobby Casey, Conal O'Grada, and Tommy Peoples) achieve something close, snapshots though they are.
But I notice that some solo playing goes stale way too quickly, despite being inventive and playful. After thinking about it a lot, I suspect the stale factor, for me, stems from the playing coming across as...there's no way to put it politely...self indulgent. You know--ingrown. Like a toenail.
Offhand, I can't point to an Irish trad recording that does this. But think along the lines of Enya or Kenny G or Yanni and you'll get my drift.
Some excellent solo players have told me that their focus is on expressing the music in their own personal way, not worrying about other's approaches or expectations. They play for themselves and leave it to the audience to decide whether they like it or not. Some put it as expressing themselves through the music. On the surface, this sounds self indulgent, but I think their intent is more generous than that.
Still.... How do you play for yourself yet avoid creating self-indulgent sounding music?
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
"How do you play for yourself yet avoid creating self-indulgent sounding music?"
I'm curious to see replies because I've often pondered the same thing.
I've shied away from "performing" because for me, a lot of the joy in music is the playing of it. But then, the other night a friend came round. He plays no instruments himself, but sat there listening to me and my husband playing various things with a smile on his face the whole time. Then we all went to our local pub's blues night and enjoyed listening to a live band.
Maybe the world is made up of performers and listeners. And maybe there's a bit of crossover...
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I was just thinking about this myself after hearing the comment by Anton Mac Gabhann: 'If you learn a tune from somebody, the personality has to come with it.' I was wondering whether he was right, or whether it is more important to invest the tune with your own personality. I suppose it depends on how much of either is manifest, but on the whole I tend to agree with him: your own personality will come out anyway, and I always tend to have a mental image of the person from whom I learned a tune, when I play it. I think some people are too full of themselves, and respect the music too little. It doesn't hurt to bear in mind that you didn't invent the music, and it's not yours to mess about with. Look after it, and pass it to someone else if they want it. Somebody famous -- I forget who -- said something like 'The first time through, play the tune the way you learned it.' Good advice, I think.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
>> the playing coming across as...there's no way to put it politely...self indulgent. You know--ingrown
No, actually I don't... but I'm curious. Do you mean variations to the actual notes, or in expression? Do you mean technical virtuosity for the sake of showing-off as opposed to developing the tune? Or do you mean choice of tune to please the player as opposed to the audience? Am I even in the right ball-park here?
Thus far, I have mostly taken tunes from CD's and played them on the mandolin, not an instrument renowned for its range of expression. So scope is limited, and I focus simply on playing pleasing tunes, let alone finding individuals' different personalities in the music - other than the fact that everyone naturally evolves their own 'sound'. But I suspect I may be missing a trick here - is this what you are talking about? (Hopefully the situation is about to change...)
I really enjoy sorting out sets of tunes, and even though I play mostly solo, I always like to think of the elements of complimentarity, contrast and surprise in my choices - as though a notional audience were listening. Or does that make it too self-indulgent?
Final thing I was thinking about the other day, that might be relevant: there is a huge difference between what an audience of cognoscenti hears from that which a wider audience hears (be that in a session or performance or even just casually, e.g. amongst wider acquaintances) - after all, in the bigger scheme of things, this is a pretty specialised form of music, that the majority of people rarely, if ever, comer across (unless they live in certain hallowed corners of this Earth). Presumably, we would like to appeal to both sorts...?
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Perhaps a solo performance could be looked upon as a performer inviting the listener into the very personal interpretation of the music. Therefore by its very nature music performance is self indulgent, if it was not then we would just listen to a computer playing the notes.
Perhaps self indulgence in music is ok?
As a performer I would certainly try not to exclude the audience/listener and perhaps it is this exclusion that you may be referring to as self indulgence?
It's fine to get lost in the music but when you're performing it may not benefit the audience to get lost without bringing them along too!
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Perhaps it's a function of the modern age, and the fact that we use tunes for listening so much more than dancing now.
Does the interplay between instruments, set constructions and the arranging thereof, create a more accessible and interesting sound to listen to? Are we now accustomed to hearing careful arrangements, melody instruments pushing and pulling, and interesting and varied accompaniment? Harmonies, syncopation, and so on.
If the function was to dance all night, as in days of old, then why wouldn't a solo instrument be able to provide all that was necessary for that?
I think ian may be onto something there with his last paragraph. For wider audiences, all this stuff may be expected, while there's really very few of us that could appreciate a long solo performance.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
My two inflationary cents:
I still think nearly any performance in nearly any musical style can start off with a choice of two emphases - "Dig THIS" or "Dig ME". You are sharing off the tune, or showcasing yourself.
And to what extant?
When listening to a soloist performing a trad tune, I will often presume to form an opinion as to what the artist's motivation really is - I say "presume" because none of us know what is in another person's head. As I listen to an interpretation of a familiar traditional tune especially, I will be asking myself how the artist views the tune -
Does he/she like the tune as it is? (If I think I know the tune, are they playing the tune or their version? If a version, well then, do I like theirs)
Do they think of it as a crowd-pleaser, an obligatory tune they can grind through? ("Oh, they'll like this one - a sure-fire standard clap-along!")
Is the tune simply a framework on which to weave something rather different and exploratory? (This can be good or this can be bad. If it is Martin Hayes, this can definitely be good.)
For me, the rest of the exercise in interpretation is adding/deleting blasts of virtuosity, switches to minors, too much/too little ornamentation, anything show-offy, and, importantly, if you are playing within your reach or not.
I listened to a piper the other day who was not terrible, but kept trying to play way beyond his skill level. Had he merely slowed down to his level at this point in his career, I think it might have sort of worked. Same thing for me with any performance, all things being equal - better slower and correct than faster and sloppy. (If you cannot even fit the notes in, slow down.)
I guess I am still simply saying what I always say -
"If it is a nice tune, play some of it." Make it your own, but a little respect and humility if it's trad. It might be worth playing well.
But that might not be what makes you a star. Just look around you at who is being paid for playing, and for playing what.
No further redundant thoughts at the moment.
Guess I must be the "Abstract Blather Overload".
Cheers.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
>>very few of us that could appreciate a long solo performance
That, I think, is something that comes with experience - especially if you are a player yourself. I speak as someone whose first exposure to ITM was a Dubliners L.P....
Rook, crowd-pleasers surely have a place too, if you're a performer? I must admit I do dislike the tendency (encouraged by many performers) to get the audience clapping inanely - devalues the music IMO. As for speed, I agree, but the urge to play a whip-along reel is sometimes hard to resist...
As for lay-audiences' expectations, I recently played, at request, some of my recent recordings to a non-ITM acquaintance, who heard the bouzouki and said in all seriousness, "I never knew you were into Indian music..."
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Rook has some interesting thoughts on the music performances that are on view at the moment.I posted something slightly similiar on lack of nyaa in present day trad bands and for some reason some people didnt like it! A crowd of musicians rushing a tune always gets me rushing for home.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I think it has something to do with the "look at me!" nature of any performance, which gets even more pronounced when it is just one person, "look at ME!"
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
There is such a quick judgement of "oh look at that self indulgent egotistical showoff" and it usually comes from other musicians who think they can do better or angry mean people who just need to cut somebody down.
When a player sets out to play alone, it's a giant risk. The player is laying it all out there for everyone to either enjoy or criticize and said player will get every spectrum of reaction depending on how he/she carries him/herself and what type of crowd is being played for.
Personally, I love to see a player taking such a risk and understand quite well how much courage it takes.
When I play alone, if I'm enjoying myself and my surroundings, then the listeners generally do too. If I'm not enjoying myself, I packup and leave because the listeners probably won't enjoy it either.
Last week I was playing alone and at the beginning, I was having reed trouble. I fumbled a bit, played too fast, forgot a B part, faked it through a couple things, but it was a beautiful morning. Pipes will be pipes, sometimes it takes a while to warm up yet still, I was enjoying myself and as the morning progressed, my reeds settled down, my playing improved and I enjoyed myself quite a bit.
I'm sure there were some folks, like if Rook had been there, would have been quick to judge me, but that's not the point, I play because I love it and this music makes me happy. Most of the folks who hear it seem to enjoy it too. Risk is an inherent part of life and if I'm not willing to take risks then I cease to live.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
If I've paid money to see a performance, by golly I want that artist to play all out, take chances, experiment, do things with a tune that I can't do. I don't care if their motivation comes from "look at me" or "its all about the music."
I like my pitchers, quarterbacks, lead guitar players and solo artists a little bit cocky - sometimes a bit of swagger is a good thing. The timid stay within the accepted parameters. The bold take chances. I'm paying for the bold.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Wow! Great stuff so far. Thanks--every single post has helped (and none of them came across as self indulgent, even though you each gave your own insights ).
To clarify, yes I am talking about solo performing, or recording. Not playing in sessions or just sitting around at home.
And I'm not entirely sure myself what I mean by "self indulgent sounding music." Your posts have helped. Part of it certainly is the difference between a player who conveys "Listen to ME" rather than "Listen to THIS." And part of it is the difference between a performer who ignores the audience vs. one who brings the listeners along for the ride.
Ian, thanks for making the distinction between displays of virtuosity vs. developing the tune. Yes, that's definitely part of it. And Rook, pointing out that a player who chooses tunes that s/he personally likes will likely find it easier to share that genuine enthusiasm with listeners, in contrast to choosing tunes that you assume the audience wants to hear.
All of this is exactly what I'm looking for. And it helps me understand why, when I listen to Tommy Peoples, say, his music carries me (and others) along, even though his playing comes across as intensely personal and inward looking.
For the most part, I seem to get a similar response from listeners when I play solo (and I'm *not* comparing myself to Mr. Peoples here, hell no!). I'd like to better understand why that is. My curiosity stems in part from a private conversation with a well-known and widely respected Irish fiddler, where he said that his decision to quit playing Orange Blossom Special in the bars and focus instead on playing the music he grew up with--his phrase was "my own music"--felt like "stepping off a cliff." He said he had no idea if anyone else would actually want to listen to it, let alone enjoy it. He also said that he felt ambivalent about it at first--unsure whether this was the right thing to do with the music and his life--and he couldn't go on stage honestly with that ambivalence. So he had to think about that and find some resolution.
One of the bigger insights I got from the same conversation was when he said (I'm paraphrasing) you "give" the music to people when you play it for them, and eventually, people come to expect what *you* have to give. So simply being yourself satisfies what they came for (without even concerning yourself over what exactly their expectations are).
Thanks again to Ian, Enda, Rook, Boatpiper, and others for reinforcing that here.
Another facet you've all brought to light is the notion of "playing within your reach." Is it just my ears, or did the earlier players who recorded have an easier time of that? Many of today's cds come across to me as self-conscious attempts to prove something. But I don't hear any of that in, say, Paddy Canny's recorded playing. Is it harder now, with so many decades of brilliant playing recorded before us, waiting there for comparison whether we invite it or not?
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
JNE, that's interesting. I don't come at this music that way at all. Oh, I take chances and experiment, fly by the seat of my pants. But it sure doesn't come from swagger at all, not for me.
Sometimes I worry that I lack precisely this, and I'd be a fool to go on stage without it.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
well, i think your mention of not having heard self-indulgent syndrome on solo itm recordings might be a good clue.....i gotta think about whether i could say that. i think i could, but that's not to say there aren't some solo itm records out there that ARE s.i
perhaps the very fact that the genre itself has parameters beyond which you're not playing that genre anymore though they're broad enough to allow for much individualism (a be-bop or free jazzer probly would disagree with me there).....tends to cut down on s.i. syndrome in players good enough to be recording.
but i HAVE heard oodles of it in itm NOT on recordings. often it's speed and "flash" way beyond the player's skill. that in a solo player is definitely a sign of s.i., and a sign of serious character deficiencies imho....the 'third eye" is not there, due to narcissim or god knows what.
other times, it's tasteless use of rubato in a deluded belief that this is "artistic" solo playing. some people feel that martin hayes is s.i. in this way; i'm not one of them. actually, tasteless use of rubato is probably one of the prime forms of s.i. solo playing i've encountered.
i remember having rubato explained to me as a younger teen by a piano teacher who said that i was not old enough to start doing it , only to start to learn to start listening for it and start feeling it, because i had not experienced enough of life.
one might think of rubato as musical kabbalah, which in orthodox jewish metaphysics (as opposed to the current celeb-infested schlock version of kabbalah)...the ancients wrote that to study it, the scholar had to be at least forty had be married with children, their version of having life experience.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Whilst I've not yet reached the heights of solo musical performances, I do give solo mathematical performances in the form of research seminars, and I find it very helpful to keep in mind Martin Hayes' Live in Seattle sleeve notes:
"Over the years I have struggled with a number of philosophical dilemmas related to performance: If you play only what the audience wants, are you likely to dilute the quality of the music in order to satisfy perceived audience desires? If you play only what you want to hear, then you may alienate the audience and cut yourself off from any real communication, in which case you must ask yourself why perform in concert at all? Someone once told me, "You should play what you want, but you should play it for the audience in a spirit of giving and communication." The intention behind one's performance is of paramount importance. His comment is in mind as I approach every performance."
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
somebody over on the concertina site posted this link to a "geantrai" segment featuring pupils of frank custy playing in a burren cave, and it starts with a youthful gearoid o'hallmhorain playing a solo slow air on concertina fore they all do a lovely set of reels.... i just watched this last nite before seeing this thread and was actually thinking, what sophisticated solo playing it was....it's so deceptively simple and elegant...
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Wilf, since you posted that, I'll reveal that the player who I had the conversation with was in fact Martin Hayes. He recounted that same bit of another musician advising him that performing was all about giving the music to the listeners.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Will, I like something you said above. We should all aspire to playing that says "listen to THIS," rather than "listen to ME." That gets to the heart of the issue.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Al, actually it was Rook who made that point. I've long held the same sentiment though. If someone comes up to compliment me, instead of "you're a wonderful fiddler," what I genuinely hope to hear is "That was a wonderful tune!"
So...any suggestions on how to convey that sense of "listen to THIS" when it's only "me" on stage?
My own notions are to:
Be yourself.
Connect with the listeners on a personal, cozy, intimate level.
Use body language similar to how you'd play for friends in your own home.
Model the desired attitude--focus your attention and respect on THE TUNE.
Funny, most of this is exactly how I play in a session. I'm wondering, though, how readily this sense will transfer to stage or recording studio. And if taking it there is even the appropriate approach.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
'If someone comes up to compliment me, instead of "you're a wonderful fiddler," what I genuinely hope to hear is "That was a wonderful tune!"'
A few months ago, after a session, a friend remarked to me, "I love playing with you - I find that you're a really *giving* player." I'd never thought of my playing in terms of "giving", but I was so touched by that comment, and felt that it, more so than "you play really well" [I don't], made me feel like I was playing at sessions *correctly*, such as it is.
I harbour no ambitions to play on stage, in part because I don't feel I have the sort of charisma and showmanship necessary to do so, nor the interest in developing them.
But further to the theme of "listen to this" vs "listen to me": A couple of months ago, I attended a fiddle camp where Liz Carroll was one of the teachers. We students had a performance, before which she casually remarked to me that performing made her nervous - which shocked me, as she always appears so utterly at ease on the stage. But when she performs, she jokes around a bit and talks about the tunes then she gets straight to business. she knows that the tunes, and her interpretations of them, speak for themselves. (I had seen her perform years before I met her, and was struck by how similar she sounded when talking on stage as when she was having a one-on-one conversation with me.)
The next night all of the instructors held a concert, and the MC introduced her while she set herself up. The MC's introduction was more than a little effusive, consisting mostly of gushing about how lucky we were to have this brilliant fiddler with us at the camp: "...and then at the session [other instructor] said, oh my God, I'm playing with Liz Carroll! And I said - I KNOW! I can't believe how lucky we were..." And on and on like for another minute, at which point the MC saw that Liz had finished setting up, so she concluded, "Ok, it looks like Liz is ready, so I'll get off the stage now."
Replied Liz, "Yes, please do." In other words: enough about me; there are tunes to be played.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Will - I have to admit to being guilty of trolling with my last comment. I did it because I knew most of the posts were going to follow the company line about how this is "all about the music and not the player."
I find that response a little too cliche for me. Although I've only been around the session scene for about 10 or 11 years, in my limited experience, the really top end players have a little bit of a healthy ego - and that is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact playing with folks like that always made me play better. The top enders, through years of playing and trial and error, played tunes with a confidence that the rest of us couldn't touch.
Will, I know you played sports - a musical performance isn't too far removed from that mindset in my opinion. The folks who have impressed me the most musically have always played fearlessly. Yes, this music can stand on it's own of course - but for a really impressive performance, I believe it takes a person who is not afraid to let their ego come out and dance a bit.
I grew up in a hyper-competitive family so I realize most here will think I'm a loon for taking this position. But I like a little swagger from a solo performance.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Random - is that question for me? I'm not sure what you're asking in regards to money. My top-ender reference is only in relation to good session players I have met in the western united states - but folks like that are everywhere. And just so I am not misunderstood - I am not suggesting rudeness or arrogance - just confidence born from a healthy ego and years of playing.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
JNE, I saw the bait and only nibbled.
But I *do* appreciate your perspective because I think a fair number of people listen to musicians the way you describe. I get what you're saying, and as a former baseball pitcher, I readily see similarities between being on the mound and being on stage.
The problem with the sports analogy is that sports are about someone winning and someone else losing. So there's a genuine need--in competitive play at least--to be assertive, aggressive, even dominating. That's fine for sports, but I don't want to play music that way. And I'm not out to impress anyone with my technique or skill or musical "prowess."
I just want to play the music well, so well that it speaks for itself. No doubt some people won't think much of that, but then I don't plan on going on tour, selling tens of dollars worth of cds, or winning any contests. And I'm perfectly happy disappointing anyone who wants a virtuoso. Other musicians can take that applause.
What I'd like to do is play some solo sets of tunes at the camps and festivals that I teach at, maybe make a cd of accessible but intriguing tunes for aspiring fiddlers to learn from, and feel generally more at home in my own skin doing this in front of audiences. (It's felt good lately; but there's always room for improvement.)
So part of what I'm after on this thread is clarifying and maybe even resolving some of the ambivalence that Martin talked about and that I too have felt. And another part is sussing out and refining my own expectations and ambitions about this aspect of playing the music. It's easy to coast along for years playing in sessions and doing the odd gig with a band. But solo playing, especially for discerning listeners, is different, challenging in ways sessions aren't. I know that from past experience and am actively pondering those challenges with each new experience.
The insights and exploratory thoughts on this thread have been extremely helpful. Again, thanks!
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Sorry about the money reference but I was following on this comment, "If I've paid money to see a performance, by golly I want that artist to play all out ..."
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I'll add this:
As this music has gone from kitchens and crossroad ceilis to concert halls and major recording labels, it feels to me like a lot of the amateur charm and unpretentiousness of players like Paddy Canny and Junior Crehan has been lost. There's a ton more marketing hype over All-Ireland winners and Irish "super bands" and the "most acclaimed" individual players.
I'm sure Paddy Canny knew he was widely appreciated by fans of the music, but I doubt he worried much about competing for attention and market share with the hot shots who followed.
In short, this music has become (for those who make a living at it) another arm of the music industry.
As a writer, I heard a thousand times the old advice of "write the kind of books you'd want to read, you'd want to keep on your nightstand." Thinking the same might apply to music, when I play for an audience, I prefer to play the kind of music--and in the passionate, confident, but unassuming manner--that I cut my teeth on from players like Canny and Crehan. To me, that's what's missing from many traditional recordings these days, and from the big concert-hall shows. I admire Randal Bays for going the route of playing small house-concerts--that sounds more appropriate to me for this music.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I saw Kevin Burke at a house concert a few months ago - his performance fits perfectly into the mindset you're describing there Will - passionate, confident and unassuming.
When you have your set list ready - give us a call - we're always looking to host a house concert down here in AZ!
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Reading on through this thread, what I'm feeling more and more is that the inner balance, energy and expression of the player, or shall we say the person is what you're on about Will.
That's what comes out in the music and it takes a rather extrordinary kind of life experience to create a person with the type of balance and perspective that it takes to convey an energy that is what I think you are speaking of.
I can't help but think of all the kind and gentle people I've run across through the years who really do exhibit an inner peace and sense of being that makes everyone around them feel grand. Sadly the number of folks like that are few but it gives us all something to aspire to when we are lucky enough to run across them. This is a great thread. Very inspiring.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Maybe an ignorant question, but what *exactly* do people understand by 'respecting the music'? Does it mean playing a faithful rendition of what you heard/learned, be it from another person or from a recording? If so, there seems to be a conflict here between being respecting the tune and 'making it your own'.
I confess that yesterday, as I was playing a fast reel, my fingers dropped into a configuration during one phrase, that worked fine and came pefectly naturally, but which actually simplified it slightly compared to the original written version, (which came from this site btw...)
Is that 'making it my own' or 'failing to respect the music'?
And if this is not so, what else should I be doing to make it my own while still respecting it? I most definitely do not want to defile the music - it is playing the tunes that is important, not this player - but do a) not playing a traditional instrument and b) not coming from the music's native home, and hence perhaps not having that intuitive feel for it (despite 30 years of listening) mean that I cannot help *but* disrespect the music when I play?
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
The simple answer to that is when music is passed on it is not just a bunch of tunes or particular settings. Handed down is a whole lot more. attitudes and above all a sense of aesthetic. A sense what is right or not so right, what sounds good and not so good.
Respecting music, the tradition or whatever you want to call it is about internalising that sense of aesthetic and operate within the wide and fuzzy boundaries set by the community.
So it's not about changing the one or two notes, altering a phrase It's about whether or not what you do isn't violating the overall aesthetic.
Ofcourse there's huge scope for interpretation there as there won't be any clear lines drawn.
It's been some time since I saw my own copy (but then,who 'owns' books anyway?) but I think some of the stuff in it resonates with your OP and the subsequent replies.
There's a lot in it about coming back to the music from the various tangents that crossed several players' lives.
Apart from anything else there are some great photographs!
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Thanks, Prof. - but that could still be very fuzzy to someone who didn't already know what you mean.
If by aesthetic, you simply mean developing an ear for the music, then I guess that's easy enough - for example, I am quite comfortable with modality in a way that my non-trad musical colleagues find quite difficult. I also recognise the various forms and structures of tune, and my fingers find the patterns on the fretboard pretty instinctively. Heck, I even find them making up tunes when I'm not watching... All done on an almost pure diet of 30 years of recordings and intermittent visits to my local folk club.
But picking up 'attitude' is pretty difficult if you don't happen to live surrounded by it. I guess you mean assimilating the culture? I would struggle, for example, to distinguish between the various regional styles of playing in Ireland, but can you blame me? I don't live there, never have, and a diet of recorded bands isn't going to do that for me - but it might still make what I play sound 'bad' to those in the know.
But then, try explaining the differences between, say, Alsatian French and Langedocien French accents to anyone other than a native speaker - you have to be pretty darned good to pick them up... So where does that leave the rest of us?
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Great topic for discussion...
Here's a change-up.
What does this sentence sound like?
"It was the best of times. It was the worst of times."
If you're an American from Rhode Island it sounds the way I said it.
If you're Irish it sounds Irish. If you're Aussie it sounds Aussie.
Etc. Etc...
No matter what we do, we can't escape our roots and accents.
It's the same sentence, but it sounds different from anyone who says it.
How can musical expression be any different?
You hear a tune at a session. It sounds great. You decide to learn it.
No matter what you do, you're going to come up with your own way of playing it.
It won't sound exactly like what you first heard no matter how hard you try.
You will be playing the tune in your own unique way, that's never been heard before.
I've been accused of playing (some) tunes oddly. I get funny looks when I announce
the name of a tune that no one joined in on, only to discover that everyone knows the tune name, "only it goes like this...". I've decided that in these cases, I should just rename the tune,
to something similar. For example, my version of "The Traveller" is "The Tarveller".
"The Salamanca" is "The Samalanca". This is sort of my accent that I can't get rid of.
I really don't mind my own accent even though I can't detect it. I'm not going to a class to get rid of it. It's me. I can't alter my fingerprints. I'm guilty as charged.
Well, that's kind of how I reacted to this topic. Everyone has a musical accent. The well-known musicians mentioned in this thread all have an accent. Why should they attempt to cover it up?
People will pay to listen to them again and again precisely because of the unique accent and personality they provide. (2-hours or more can be a long time though for one performer. That's why we have sessions...)
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Accents. I like that. And it may have more than a grain of truth in it.
I recall once long ago, when talking about taking up the uilleanns with an elder piper in Clare, he suggest learning Irish, especially for air-playing. He thought you needed to learn the music of the language as well, to adeptt with the music on the pipes.
And, FWIW, I think I agree with the Prof, on how music, and style, is handed down:
A lot of the tunes I play have a definite connection to where I first heard them and who was playing (only natural, as that was when I was first "inspired" to take them on). So, when I reach for them, what i hear in my head is a memory of a performance (paid or just sharing) of the tune, with a mood and a visual frequently attached.
So, without trying to sound too poetic or saccharine about it, I think I am often playing what I remember, mixed with my mood of the moment.
The respecting the tradition part will always be a debatable thing, like anything about trying to make music, and my above posting said MOST of what my thoughts are on performing for pay, albeit a bit crudely.
I will observe that I think if Coleman, Clancy, Peoples, Keenan, J. Cunningham, Burke, etc. etc. had played exactly like the musicians who taught, guided, and inspired them, they would not have had any of the impact on the rest of the musical that they did have. They would have been preservers of a tradition, not innovators.
Both take a certain kind of integrity and guts.
For Boatpiper:
I apologize, on re-reading my posting above, it surely did sound a bit like I was talking in terms of judgment.
I assure you, I do not judge other musicians or sneer at what works for them, rather I only hold my own opinion of if I happen to like it or not. And I really am not going to get an attitude about anyone's success, especially if they are happy and so are their listeners. They are entitled to their POV just like the rest of us, right?
And in any case, any experienced musician who would judge anothers musical performance on any level is usually, at best, displaying a very poor or convenient memory of their own experience.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
But how far can you go with the accent argument before you change it into something else? You could argue that those people aren't speaking English, they're speaking American, Australian etc....
No more can I construct an 'authentic' Irish cottage in my back garden, just because I want to - or Irish bar in my local town (as any number of pastiche Oirish bars around the world will testify...) Too many contextual compromises.
Likewise with the music, how far do you go with adding your own accent before it stops being Irish? It is all the harder in the age of modern mass-communication: despite considering myself pretty immersed in modern-style traditional music, I still sometimes find it hard to stop influences from elsewhere creeping in.
Maybe I shouldn't try, but instinct says that there is a difference between acceptable evolution and musical cross-pollution. I *think* Donal Lunny fell on the right side of line that first time he played a bouzouki in a session; I am not sure that Salsa Celtica or the Red Hot Chilli Pipers, for example, do... The only alternative resolution is to divorce the music from its origins and call it World Music But I suspect that would count as a loss of respect, and would certainly dilute the 'attitude'.
I wonder whether there *are* in fact more people outside Scotland/Ireland who play the music than inside...
Maybe this is all just pulling wings of musical flies, but nobody has yet offered to pay to listen to *me* playing ITM for two hours - and I suspect it isn't just about technical excellence.
To be fair, perhaps it's a bit like cooking - other people's always tastes better than your own...
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Well then, taking into account accents, spices, personal preferences, baseball, and style - what then defines a great solo performer/performance in this quirky genre that we all love? What separates a great performance from a person just playing a tune?
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Lots of food for thought.
JNE, duly noted. I tend to keep a set list in my head, but I frequently revise it in the middle of playing. Another perk of playing solo--it doesn't throw anyone else off track.
biggus Dave, that book is a good read and I love the pix. I have it on my shelves somewhere (maybe it's your long lost copy ). Time to re-read it.
Rook, I really like your juxtaposition of "integrity and guts." That's the bull's eye I'm aiming for. And ian, the questions you raise are exactly the ones running through my mind. I live in Montana USA, haven't been to Ireland since I was 5, am not interested in making myself over to try to be Irish (no walking caps, Aran sweaters, or phony brogue for me). But people routinely pay me to teach them to play Irish music and come away saying "best less/class/workshop I've ever had, you have a gift." And I seriously struggle with that because ***I*** greatly respect the heritage and cultural context and *life* that creates players like Martin Hayes, coming from generations of Irish fiddlers in Clare, nephew of Paddy Canny, mentored by Martin Rochford, six time All-Ireland winner....the "credentials" go on and on. Who am I?
I like Martin's own answer to that: "Anyone can have the gift of music...it's the gift of loving the music."
So maybe 30 years of deeply listening and playing and learning and seeking out mentors and being head over heels immersed in the music *is* enough, no matter where you live or what accent or local spices you bring to it. I don't want to run away from my own roots or who I am, but neither do I want to play watered down Irish traditional music. It's a tricky thing to make someone else's culture somehow your own, while remaining true to yourself....
It's interesting to me how many American fiddlers compete in the All-Ireland. It must feel good just to qualify, and just to place. A stamp of acceptance or even approval of sorts. But music as competition doesn't appeal to me. Less formal forms of acceptance will have to do.
FWIW, this thread has at least helped me see that other musicians grapple with the same doubts and questions. And your insights and internal responses to those doubts are a big help. Thanks yet again!
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Just be yourself, Will. You're obviously learning from those generational fiddlers, & passing it on, even though you're not one yourself. While you cannot fake that sort of thing, you do your best to treat it with respect.
Speaking of accents always has me thinking ... I continued from here to write alot more stuff & realized I have only skimmed through this discussion. Maybe after I do a bit a reading, solo playing, & er ... uh, catch up on the chores.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Just to clarify my sports analogy Will, I am not referring to competition against others - winners and losers, etc. I am speaking of the mental preparation. Getting yourself to that focused, calm controlled command when pitching is similar to getting ready to a solo performance - would you agree? It is a competition against yourself - defeating the demons of self-doubt, of distraction and self-imposed restraint that I mean. Losing that fear of making a mistake. The great performers seem to have no fear.
I'm not saying this is apropos to your situation, however, just an observation.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Thanks for initating and nurturing another great thread, Will.
From the tg4 link provided above by ceemonster I messed around on the site and discovered the programme on Tommy Potts - allthough this may be far away from your aspirations I think there are several points there that relate to the questions you initially posed.
Paddy Glackin taught in the neck of the Norwegian woods and( 10-15 years ago), and I remember him spending a lot of time talking warmly about Tommy Potts. Although I shamefully admit the Liffey Banks CD has collected a lot of dust over the years, this program has inspired me to listen further and get hold of the upcoming CD release.
Tommy Potts was clearly a daring man who followed his instincts and inspiration in his music. It was refreshing to see how ”Mambo Italiano” could be an inspiration in irsish music context ( tempting to draw an parallell to how O´Carolan was influenced by the italian contemporaries here). I think this anecdote (provided at 10:31 in part 1) illustrates that it should be allowed to create and put your own ideas into the music.
Tommy”purely played to his own enjoyment, not to impress” as his daughter puts it towards the end of the second part.
With this spirit I think you should feel free to foster and record whatever your mind breeds. Having followed your postings for a decade I am sure you will focus on the possibilities rather than the limitations while keeping the integrity of the tradition.
…and please be sure to let us know where and when we can get hold of your upcoming recordings !
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
FiddleTramp, thanks for the links. A lot of great fiddlers hold Tommy Potts in very high regard--he's a source, muse, point of reference for many. I too need to spend more time listening to him.
At this point, I have no idea what sort of recordings will develop. It's just a bit weird being the only teacher at a camp who doesn't have a cd to sell. (Sure, I could use the tens of dollars of extra pocket money, but what I'm really after is a handy way to give students a few tunes to learn from.)
JNE, yeah, I totally agree with the mindset thing. Although I don't see it as in inner contest either. Just letting go of the less productive facets of ego.
If you think the best players have no fear, you should ask some of them about this. I haven't met one yet that doesn't have serious doubts and fears every time they go in front of an audience. It may look and sound like that disappears when they play, but they say otherwise.
Somehow it's comforting though to know that opera diva Beverly Sills, who puked before every single concert, could say, with complete conviction, "You may fail, but you're doomed if you never try."
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Just a few things I saw in recent posts.
Ian s.: When I talk about the 'aesthetic' I mean that in the company of traditional musicians you will get a feel for what is acceptable playing music and what is not fitting. It's the gentle 'we used to play it like this..' way of saying you may re-consider what you just did. And all these other little things that help you get an ear for what's appreciated and what's not. It's immersion.
I don't know about the 'accent' thing. Everybody is the sum of his/her influences. You absorb and incorporate all the things you like from all musicians you encounter. The deeper you immerse, the deeper these influences will be.
Will, I don't know about the 'mentored by Martin Rochford'. Martin wasn't one for the mentoring or the teaching. He'd play and talk (lots of giving out)and show things he thought you'd find interesting. Visiting Martin meant immersion in music, lakes of tea and mountains of sandwiches. I was talking to Martin R. outside the church after Junior Crehan's funeral when Martin H. approached. 'You never come visit anymore now you're famous, but you play great music' Rochford called out. 'I got it all from you Martin', Hayes replied.
Last time I saw Hayes and Canny together was in the West County in Ennis at the announcement of the TG4 gradam winners (Hayes got musician of the year). The two were talking music and playing air fiddles for eachother. It was a lovely sight, I had the camera but it was too dark to get a shot.
Most people playing on stage will have a degree of nervousness. Different people deal with it in different ways. A few years ago I played at a concert that among others had Tommy Peoples on the bill. He REALLY didn't want to be there and said as much as he cam on stage (only to find one of the pegs of the fiddle had slipped and he had to do a full re-tune). It was amazing to see how he 'went inward' as soon as he started playing, totally in a world of his own, fully 'in' his music. I have seen him do that a few times since although he was not as wound up as that particular time so the contrast wasn't as defined.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Prof., yep, you're right. My memory's a bit fuzzy, but Mr. Hayes might have corrected himself when he said "mentored" by Martin Rochford. But he certainly was a wellspring for the music.
Even on YouTube clips, you can see Tommy Peoples start out tight and self-conscious and quickly go "in." It took me years (and years) to be able to do that myself. And it doesn't even have to be nerves, just the typical distractions of playing solo in front of a crowd--people coughing, babies crying, a squeaky chair. I can play through anything now, but in the early goings the least thing would snap my mind away from the tune.
Peter, your contributions on this thread are grand--I have an inkling of your own experience, going to Ireland, steeping yourself in the music and people. So it helps hugely to hear your thoughts on all this. Thank you, sir.
I'll say too that the feedback I've gotten over the years from well-immersed Irish players has always been supportive, nurturing, welcoming into the fold even. And I've seen the same accorded to anyone plainly passionate about this music.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Yes - I can see I've contradicted myself. Claiming the need to focus and defeat fear within and yet have no fear to begin with. Perhaps I'm just enamored with the illusion of fearlessness - something I do not possess LOL.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
A short bit on nerves and jitters, from the performing art of legerdemain.
During own my brief and inglorious stint as a prestidigitator, I brought up the subject of stage fright to a rather prominent magician, and asked if he still got nervous.
His reply was, in summation:
"When you no longer get a little nervous before a performance, think about hanging it up. You will have stopped really caring about how it goes."
Food for thought is all.
I know I still get nervous, even at a really fun gig.
But better jacked up and "ready for a fight" than jaded and indifferent, at least I hope.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I think Hayes has moved in different directions since and the Rochford influence was stronger during the early 90s. I doubt he could ever get away from it though.
I count Martin Rochford among my own life-changing encounters and I regret not visiting him more often than I did when I could.
He was a man of strong convictions and opinions and not shy to express them. I had known him for a long time as a piper, first time we visited the house and he took the fiddle down completely altered how I think about music.
To get back to the 'mentoring' he'd talk about things he did, why he did them but as so often with musicians of that generation it was almost in passing and you'd have to be quick and pick up on what he was on about. Mind you, my (now) wife had just started the fiddle at the time and he enjoyed showing her little things on the fiddle. I remember talking to his wife though about his family taking up music. 'No' she said, 'he doesn't have the patience for teaching beginners'.
You're right, the old guys were always very supportive. Once they sussed there was a genuine interest and commitment there. It's how it should be.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Rook, I enjoy the buzz of performing.
I'm wondering more about how to prevent that from turning into self indulgence on stage (or in the studio). The everybody *loves me" syndrome. While still staying focused on my own sense of the music.
The adrenalin I get from playing music is different than when I was a professional juggler. I don't know why.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Will,
>> I don't want to run away from my own roots or who I am, but neither do I want to play watered down Irish traditional music. It's a tricky thing to make someone else's culture somehow your own, while remaining true to yourself....
That comment sums it up for me, too. I don't want to be fake Irish/Scottish, but I do want to do the music justice. Perhaps the people at real risk of devaluing the culture are those who don't think about it enough even ask themselves the question, not those who fail to come up with an complete answer.
The only bit I have yet to resolve is how, as a non-native, to sing dialect songs properly. My best answer to date (and probaly the one I'll stick with) is, "Don't"
I also love the buzz of performing, though it's many years since I got the chance. Even more when performing to non-knowledgeable audiences - just the buzz of blowing people away with a music they never heard before, without having to be Tommy Potts to do it!
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Ian, I take heart from the fact that even musicians born into families immersed in the music sometimes ponder similar questions. I've had some great conversations with just such people.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
My apologies for chiming in so late on this thread but I've been away. I like what people are saying here. And it reminds me of one of my favorite experiences with solo performances.
I was at a James Kelly solo concert in Seattle many years ago. He played for a couple hours (with a break) and the music was really incredible. The audience was mesmerized/rapt/spellbound/hypnotized ... chose your adjective ... and it was a great concert altogether. When it was over, James Kelly sat on the stage talking to people from the audience who came up. Pretty soon, he was asking people if they'd like to play a few tunes with him (I guess he figured out that the people who were talking to him were fiddle players). Anyway, within half an hour, there were 12 or 15 fiddle players on the stage playing tunes with James Kelly. Much of the first audience had left, but now there was a new audience - equally rapt, etc.... and the tunes went on for another couple of hours. I didn't play with all of them but I listened and I was really glad to be there.
I think this gets to something you are thinking about, Will. His playing really releases the music, in my opinion. I think he probably knows this on some level, too. And, in addition to being able to communicate with the music, he is able to establish ad hoc relationships with other who express their appreciation of the way he plays. I don't know if this kind of thing ever happened outside of Seattle, but I think it probably did just because of the way it happened: It was unplanned, spontaneous, and "in the moment". It is a great skill to be able to tie the music and the people who play it together, I think, and when a solo performer does it like James did after a performance, it's fantastic.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
That's a great story tacoman. And I like the idea, the notion of inviting local players to sit in. Could be part of the "show," maybe the second half, making it less of a show and more of a led session. Cool.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
>> I don't know if this kind of thing ever happened outside of Seattle, but I think it probably did just because of the way it happened: It was unplanned, spontaneous, and "in the moment". It is a great skill to be able to tie the music and the people who play it together,
Something similar still happens within the revival scene too, Tacoman. Over the years, I have been offered a play on numerous musicians' instruments simply through talking to them between sets.
One of the most memorable was Rosie Cross' hammered dulcimer (Pyewackett) back in the mid '80's, and only a couple of weeks ago, Cameron Robson of Bellevous Rendezvous handed over his seriously valuable cittern for me to try. I never ask nor expect, I should emphasise - I simply like talking to the musicians about what they play - and particularly in this age of commercialised musical Celebrity, their unassuming willingness to respond and mingle with their audience is one of the most endearing aspects of this music, to my mind.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Will: Juggler? Me too. Used to busk a bit. Solo, never got into passing much.
Humility is an odd thing. Self-importance, stardom, celebrity, all that - how does a person handle being reminded regularly how great they are? How about throwing in a few competitions where they took first place to make it official? I believe I have observed a few performers at various levels of technical skill who may have been told, "You are the GREATEST!" and they went and believed it. And they now seem to behave like they perceive themselves as such, for better or worse.
I have occasionally been told I play all right, but I do not tend to listen. Somewhere, long ago, I received some fundamental lesson about life,and then built up a wall against extravagant compliments and superlatives. I cannot think what kind of positive or negative lesson that was just now, but it stuck.
So if I am asked to get up in front of people to share something of mine, it is with my hat in my hand. I am hoping they will like it, and, if they paid to hear or see it, I hope they do not feel ripped off.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
A reasonable grounding for such matters is that if anyone ever tells me I'm really good it just goes to show that they don't know what they are talking about. So that always sorts me out. (it didn't in the past though, I'm ashamed to say - which could have been one of the reasons I gave up performing)
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
The other musicians at my local session often request me to play something for them ie solo. I hate it, my hands shake and I have the biggest fear I'm gonna mess up (which does happen believe me) but they keep at me so i have to do it. I find it so much more a pleasant experience if I close my eyes and picture myself just being in my bedroom playing alone for myself... I'm not sure if this means its about ME or about the music, I'd like to think its about the music. Imagining you are completely on your own allows you to (this sounds cheesy) "lose yourself" in the music, enjoy the melody far more.
Possibly this could become self-indulgent but if you're really listening / enjoying what you're playing I think that will come across in a way that will help your listeners enjoy the "performance" more.. Also I like to play tunes that I think they haven't heard before, so they can learn them too, rather than your regular "showstoppers" that people often play to showcase their quick fingers or whatever. That said, I would pick different tunes when asked by fellow musicians or asked by my non irish music playing friends - for them I always feel obliged to play something more impressive as I feel it justifies my obsession with ITM!! (possibly shallow but I feel the need to promote this wonderful music among my peers)!
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
>>if anyone ever tells me I'm really good it just goes to show that they don't know what they are talking about
But against that, set the fact that the better you get, the worse you feel. It's only when you start doing something that you begin to appreciate just how high is the mountain you are climbing. Those who haven't even started simply have no conception.
The more you advance, the more sophisticated you are likely to become - and the more self-critical; you tend to look up, not down, and consequently often fail to see how far you have come.
So surely it depends on who is dishing out the praise as to how seriously you should take it - someone further up the hill, or someone lower down?
O.K., so I confess to working in education, and such truisms are my stock in trade...
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I've heard the analogy of learning to play diddley music as climbing a hill with no top many times. I think it's self defeatist nonsense. You should grow up from questioning your own capabilities, it's not only defeatist, it's divisive. How are you gonna enjoy yourself playing when you are constantly dividing the people around you into people behind you on the hill and people in front of you.
You may think that the more you advance, the more sophisticated you are likely to become and the more self-critical, but sooner or later you are gonna have to settle down and realise that beating your head against a wall of sophistication is just not how this music works. There is a plateau of technique nessesary to play this music right at the top level and that plateau is not very high. But once there, the quest of pleasure from the music is to eschew any lofty thoughts of sophistication and just get on and enjoy it and share it.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Llig, I think you misunderstood me. I am not looking for any pretentious sophistication in the music, nor to suggest there is no satisfaction to be had from playing well. Quite the contrary.
I was talking about one's expecations, that are constantly recalibrated as you progress. I was annoyed the other day not to be able to play the Dean Brig o' Edinburgh through on sight, until I remembered that, for Godssake, it is in E flat major - a key I would not have even attempted (on mandolin) some years ago. It didn't come out too badly anyway - and will be better with practice. Knowing that is a mark of experience
But all that had changed was my expectations of what I can do - that's what I meant by increasing sophistication. So in some ways I didn't feel any better than when I was a novice attempting something much simpler.
What *had* changed is the confidence with which to approach it, and the knowledge that I would get there eventually. The real satisfaction of playing well is more subtle than a simple 'I can do it' - I don't need to question my ability, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to be better still.
As for the height of the plateau, without knowing much about you, I wonder whether you have forgotten the steps by which you ascended? Look at how many posts there are here about the need to improve technique and the acquire subtleties and nuances that only come with experience.
My bet is that even the masters discussed here recently carried on improving, even if slowly at their level; but perhaps they just didn't angst about it all to the degree that present-day people do. But self-scrutiny is surely an essential part of how most people learn...
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I'm with Michael here. I'm not concerned much with technique. The improvements there still come, but they're in small increments.
It's more about personal interpretation of the tune. And wondering how a bygone style will go over with today's listeners, accustomed as they are to pyrotechnics and highly (overly) emotive playing (and body language).
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Hmmm. I didn't see swagger so much as going in himself (even to the point of eyes rolling back in his head). Just living inside the tune and not self conscious.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Yep - this is a tough room. I think I'll take my schtick back over to the next bodhran/guitar wind-up thread. Much more fertile ground for my wisearesery. Humility and honesty - Hmmmph!
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I want to know, if Will were obliged to perform, what he would do if the audience, in lieu of more sophisticated technical displays, wants danger and excitement.
When you are a juggler, well, you could just set something on fire, or throw something really sharp about, or grab a "volunteer".
Folk instruments, though, I am not sure.
You could ignite a bodhran, I suppose,
but that might seem rather cliche.
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
If it's danger you're after, it's time to take up the pipes.
and respect goes to you Rook for the honesty about how another player is looked at earlier in the thread.
My herky jerky playing gives me no right to point fingers at anybody. Except myself.
WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Curious to hear diverse thoughts and perspectives on this.
I especially enjoy listening to solo musicians playing this music--the nuances come out crisp and clear, and the player is free to roam and truly "play." Back in June I stood mesmerized for nearly two hours as Martin Hayes, alone on stage, ricocheted through tunes like a hot spark in a fireworks factory. I've heard John Carty and Kevin Burke and others do similar solo extended flights, and some solo recordings (notably of Bobby Casey, Conal O'Grada, and Tommy Peoples) achieve something close, snapshots though they are.
But I notice that some solo playing goes stale way too quickly, despite being inventive and playful. After thinking about it a lot, I suspect the stale factor, for me, stems from the playing coming across as...there's no way to put it politely...self indulgent. You know--ingrown. Like a toenail.
Offhand, I can't point to an Irish trad recording that does this. But think along the lines of Enya or Kenny G or Yanni and you'll get my drift.
Some excellent solo players have told me that their focus is on expressing the music in their own personal way, not worrying about other's approaches or expectations. They play for themselves and leave it to the audience to decide whether they like it or not. Some put it as expressing themselves through the music. On the surface, this sounds self indulgent, but I think their intent is more generous than that.
Still.... How do you play for yourself yet avoid creating self-indulgent sounding music?
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
"How do you play for yourself yet avoid creating self-indulgent sounding music?"
I'm curious to see replies because I've often pondered the same thing.
I've shied away from "performing" because for me, a lot of the joy in music is the playing of it. But then, the other night a friend came round. He plays no instruments himself, but sat there listening to me and my husband playing various things with a smile on his face the whole time. Then we all went to our local pub's blues night and enjoyed listening to a live band.
Maybe the world is made up of performers and listeners. And maybe there's a bit of crossover...
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by sore fingers
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I was just thinking about this myself after hearing the comment by Anton Mac Gabhann: 'If you learn a tune from somebody, the personality has to come with it.' I was wondering whether he was right, or whether it is more important to invest the tune with your own personality. I suppose it depends on how much of either is manifest, but on the whole I tend to agree with him: your own personality will come out anyway, and I always tend to have a mental image of the person from whom I learned a tune, when I play it. I think some people are too full of themselves, and respect the music too little. It doesn't hurt to bear in mind that you didn't invent the music, and it's not yours to mess about with. Look after it, and pass it to someone else if they want it. Somebody famous -- I forget who -- said something like 'The first time through, play the tune the way you learned it.' Good advice, I think.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by gam
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
How do you play for yourself yet avoid creating self-indulgent sounding music?
If you're playing for yourself does it matter? And...
If you're playing for yourself it doesn't matter.
...would be my two replies. Or are you asking how to avoid sounding self indulgent in a solo performance?
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by shanty
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Maybe it's sometimes the listener labelling the playing as self-indulgent, more than the player *being* self-indulgent - just a thought.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by nicholas
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
>> the playing coming across as...there's no way to put it politely...self indulgent. You know--ingrown
No, actually I don't... but I'm curious. Do you mean variations to the actual notes, or in expression? Do you mean technical virtuosity for the sake of showing-off as opposed to developing the tune? Or do you mean choice of tune to please the player as opposed to the audience? Am I even in the right ball-park here?
Thus far, I have mostly taken tunes from CD's and played them on the mandolin, not an instrument renowned for its range of expression. So scope is limited, and I focus simply on playing pleasing tunes, let alone finding individuals' different personalities in the music - other than the fact that everyone naturally evolves their own 'sound'. But I suspect I may be missing a trick here - is this what you are talking about? (Hopefully the situation is about to change...)
I really enjoy sorting out sets of tunes, and even though I play mostly solo, I always like to think of the elements of complimentarity, contrast and surprise in my choices - as though a notional audience were listening. Or does that make it too self-indulgent?
Final thing I was thinking about the other day, that might be relevant: there is a huge difference between what an audience of cognoscenti hears from that which a wider audience hears (be that in a session or performance or even just casually, e.g. amongst wider acquaintances) - after all, in the bigger scheme of things, this is a pretty specialised form of music, that the majority of people rarely, if ever, comer across (unless they live in certain hallowed corners of this Earth). Presumably, we would like to appeal to both sorts...?
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ian stock
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I should just wait for the dolphins, Will. They'll sort you out.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Perhaps a solo performance could be looked upon as a performer inviting the listener into the very personal interpretation of the music. Therefore by its very nature music performance is self indulgent, if it was not then we would just listen to a computer playing the notes.
Perhaps self indulgence in music is ok?
As a performer I would certainly try not to exclude the audience/listener and perhaps it is this exclusion that you may be referring to as self indulgence?
It's fine to get lost in the music but when you're performing it may not benefit the audience to get lost without bringing them along too!
Enda
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Enda Scahill
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Perhaps it's a function of the modern age, and the fact that we use tunes for listening so much more than dancing now.
Does the interplay between instruments, set constructions and the arranging thereof, create a more accessible and interesting sound to listen to? Are we now accustomed to hearing careful arrangements, melody instruments pushing and pulling, and interesting and varied accompaniment? Harmonies, syncopation, and so on.
If the function was to dance all night, as in days of old, then why wouldn't a solo instrument be able to provide all that was necessary for that?
I think ian may be onto something there with his last paragraph. For wider audiences, all this stuff may be expected, while there's really very few of us that could appreciate a long solo performance.
Form, function? Dolphins?
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
My two inflationary cents:
I still think nearly any performance in nearly any musical style can start off with a choice of two emphases - "Dig THIS" or "Dig ME". You are sharing off the tune, or showcasing yourself.
And to what extant?
When listening to a soloist performing a trad tune, I will often presume to form an opinion as to what the artist's motivation really is - I say "presume" because none of us know what is in another person's head. As I listen to an interpretation of a familiar traditional tune especially, I will be asking myself how the artist views the tune -
Does he/she like the tune as it is? (If I think I know the tune, are they playing the tune or their version? If a version, well then, do I like theirs)
Do they think of it as a crowd-pleaser, an obligatory tune they can grind through? ("Oh, they'll like this one - a sure-fire standard clap-along!")
Is the tune simply a framework on which to weave something rather different and exploratory? (This can be good or this can be bad. If it is Martin Hayes, this can definitely be good.)
For me, the rest of the exercise in interpretation is adding/deleting blasts of virtuosity, switches to minors, too much/too little ornamentation, anything show-offy, and, importantly, if you are playing within your reach or not.
I listened to a piper the other day who was not terrible, but kept trying to play way beyond his skill level. Had he merely slowed down to his level at this point in his career, I think it might have sort of worked. Same thing for me with any performance, all things being equal - better slower and correct than faster and sloppy. (If you cannot even fit the notes in, slow down.)
I guess I am still simply saying what I always say -
"If it is a nice tune, play some of it." Make it your own, but a little respect and humility if it's trad. It might be worth playing well.
But that might not be what makes you a star. Just look around you at who is being paid for playing, and for playing what.
No further redundant thoughts at the moment.
Guess I must be the "Abstract Blather Overload".
Cheers.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Piece
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
>>very few of us that could appreciate a long solo performance
That, I think, is something that comes with experience - especially if you are a player yourself. I speak as someone whose first exposure to ITM was a Dubliners L.P....
Rook, crowd-pleasers surely have a place too, if you're a performer? I must admit I do dislike the tendency (encouraged by many performers) to get the audience clapping inanely - devalues the music IMO. As for speed, I agree, but the urge to play a whip-along reel is sometimes hard to resist...
As for lay-audiences' expectations, I recently played, at request, some of my recent recordings to a non-ITM acquaintance, who heard the bouzouki and said in all seriousness, "I never knew you were into Indian music..."
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ian stock
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Rook has some interesting thoughts on the music performances that are on view at the moment.I posted something slightly similiar on lack of nyaa in present day trad bands and for some reason some people didnt like it! A crowd of musicians rushing a tune always gets me rushing for home.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by big_tab
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I think it has something to do with the "look at me!" nature of any performance, which gets even more pronounced when it is just one person, "look at ME!"
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Play like Johnny Cunningham played...
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by vonnieestes
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
von, I think you nailed it....
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
There is such a quick judgement of "oh look at that self indulgent egotistical showoff" and it usually comes from other musicians who think they can do better or angry mean people who just need to cut somebody down.
When a player sets out to play alone, it's a giant risk. The player is laying it all out there for everyone to either enjoy or criticize and said player will get every spectrum of reaction depending on how he/she carries him/herself and what type of crowd is being played for.
Personally, I love to see a player taking such a risk and understand quite well how much courage it takes.
When I play alone, if I'm enjoying myself and my surroundings, then the listeners generally do too. If I'm not enjoying myself, I packup and leave because the listeners probably won't enjoy it either.
Last week I was playing alone and at the beginning, I was having reed trouble. I fumbled a bit, played too fast, forgot a B part, faked it through a couple things, but it was a beautiful morning. Pipes will be pipes, sometimes it takes a while to warm up yet still, I was enjoying myself and as the morning progressed, my reeds settled down, my playing improved and I enjoyed myself quite a bit.
I'm sure there were some folks, like if Rook had been there, would have been quick to judge me, but that's not the point, I play because I love it and this music makes me happy. Most of the folks who hear it seem to enjoy it too. Risk is an inherent part of life and if I'm not willing to take risks then I cease to live.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Great post Boatpiper.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by big_tab
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
If I've paid money to see a performance, by golly I want that artist to play all out, take chances, experiment, do things with a tune that I can't do. I don't care if their motivation comes from "look at me" or "its all about the music."
I like my pitchers, quarterbacks, lead guitar players and solo artists a little bit cocky - sometimes a bit of swagger is a good thing. The timid stay within the accepted parameters. The bold take chances. I'm paying for the bold.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Wow! Great stuff so far. Thanks--every single post has helped (and none of them came across as self indulgent, even though you each gave your own insights
).
To clarify, yes I am talking about solo performing, or recording. Not playing in sessions or just sitting around at home.
And I'm not entirely sure myself what I mean by "self indulgent sounding music." Your posts have helped. Part of it certainly is the difference between a player who conveys "Listen to ME" rather than "Listen to THIS." And part of it is the difference between a performer who ignores the audience vs. one who brings the listeners along for the ride.
Ian, thanks for making the distinction between displays of virtuosity vs. developing the tune. Yes, that's definitely part of it. And Rook, pointing out that a player who chooses tunes that s/he personally likes will likely find it easier to share that genuine enthusiasm with listeners, in contrast to choosing tunes that you assume the audience wants to hear.
All of this is exactly what I'm looking for. And it helps me understand why, when I listen to Tommy Peoples, say, his music carries me (and others) along, even though his playing comes across as intensely personal and inward looking.
For the most part, I seem to get a similar response from listeners when I play solo (and I'm *not* comparing myself to Mr. Peoples here, hell no!). I'd like to better understand why that is. My curiosity stems in part from a private conversation with a well-known and widely respected Irish fiddler, where he said that his decision to quit playing Orange Blossom Special in the bars and focus instead on playing the music he grew up with--his phrase was "my own music"--felt like "stepping off a cliff." He said he had no idea if anyone else would actually want to listen to it, let alone enjoy it. He also said that he felt ambivalent about it at first--unsure whether this was the right thing to do with the music and his life--and he couldn't go on stage honestly with that ambivalence. So he had to think about that and find some resolution.
One of the bigger insights I got from the same conversation was when he said (I'm paraphrasing) you "give" the music to people when you play it for them, and eventually, people come to expect what *you* have to give. So simply being yourself satisfies what they came for (without even concerning yourself over what exactly their expectations are).
Thanks again to Ian, Enda, Rook, Boatpiper, and others for reinforcing that here.
Another facet you've all brought to light is the notion of "playing within your reach." Is it just my ears, or did the earlier players who recorded have an easier time of that? Many of today's cds come across to me as self-conscious attempts to prove something. But I don't hear any of that in, say, Paddy Canny's recorded playing. Is it harder now, with so many decades of brilliant playing recorded before us, waiting there for comparison whether we invite it or not?
Thanks again for all your thoughts!
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
JNE, that's interesting. I don't come at this music that way at all. Oh, I take chances and experiment, fly by the seat of my pants. But it sure doesn't come from swagger at all, not for me.
Sometimes I worry that I lack precisely this, and I'd be a fool to go on stage without it.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
well, i think your mention of not having heard self-indulgent syndrome on solo itm recordings might be a good clue.....i gotta think about whether i could say that. i think i could, but that's not to say there aren't some solo itm records out there that ARE s.i
perhaps the very fact that the genre itself has parameters beyond which you're not playing that genre anymore though they're broad enough to allow for much individualism (a be-bop or free jazzer probly would disagree with me there).....tends to cut down on s.i. syndrome in players good enough to be recording.
but i HAVE heard oodles of it in itm NOT on recordings. often it's speed and "flash" way beyond the player's skill. that in a solo player is definitely a sign of s.i., and a sign of serious character deficiencies imho....the 'third eye" is not there, due to narcissim or god knows what.
other times, it's tasteless use of rubato in a deluded belief that this is "artistic" solo playing. some people feel that martin hayes is s.i. in this way; i'm not one of them. actually, tasteless use of rubato is probably one of the prime forms of s.i. solo playing i've encountered.
i remember having rubato explained to me as a younger teen by a piano teacher who said that i was not old enough to start doing it , only to start to learn to start listening for it and start feeling it, because i had not experienced enough of life.
one might think of rubato as musical kabbalah, which in orthodox jewish metaphysics (as opposed to the current celeb-infested schlock version of kabbalah)...the ancients wrote that to study it, the scholar had to be at least forty had be married with children, their version of having life experience.
.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ceemonster
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Heh, good. I'm 51 with two allegedly grown sons. Though still a child at heart, I have life experience in spades.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Whilst I've not yet reached the heights of solo musical performances, I do give solo mathematical performances in the form of research seminars, and I find it very helpful to keep in mind Martin Hayes' Live in Seattle sleeve notes:
"Over the years I have struggled with a number of philosophical dilemmas related to performance: If you play only what the audience wants, are you likely to dilute the quality of the music in order to satisfy perceived audience desires? If you play only what you want to hear, then you may alienate the audience and cut yourself off from any real communication, in which case you must ask yourself why perform in concert at all? Someone once told me, "You should play what you want, but you should play it for the audience in a spirit of giving and communication." The intention behind one's performance is of paramount importance. His comment is in mind as I approach every performance."
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Wilf
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
somebody over on the concertina site posted this link to a "geantrai" segment featuring pupils of frank custy playing in a burren cave, and it starts with a youthful gearoid o'hallmhorain playing a solo slow air on concertina fore they all do a lovely set of reels.... i just watched this last nite before seeing this thread and was actually thinking, what sophisticated solo playing it was....it's so deceptively simple and elegant...
http://live.tg4.ie/m...nt=178055937025
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ceemonster
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
For some reason my browser is not letting me open your link ceemonster, but I think this is the segment you watched;
http://live.tg4.ie/main.aspx?level=SiarBothar&content=178055937025
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
The group in the Come West clip (not Geantrai) is Dísirt Tola. They had a liking for arranging tunes in 'suites' (their word) like that.
They did an lp around the time the clip was made. Iposted a clip from it to another thread last week.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Wilf, since you posted that, I'll reveal that the player who I had the conversation with was in fact Martin Hayes. He recounted that same bit of another musician advising him that performing was all about giving the music to the listeners.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Will, I like something you said above. We should all aspire to playing that says "listen to THIS," rather than "listen to ME." That gets to the heart of the issue.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Al, actually it was Rook who made that point. I've long held the same sentiment though. If someone comes up to compliment me, instead of "you're a wonderful fiddler," what I genuinely hope to hear is "That was a wonderful tune!"
So...any suggestions on how to convey that sense of "listen to THIS" when it's only "me" on stage?
My own notions are to:
Be yourself.
Connect with the listeners on a personal, cozy, intimate level.
Use body language similar to how you'd play for friends in your own home.
Model the desired attitude--focus your attention and respect on THE TUNE.
Funny, most of this is exactly how I play in a session. I'm wondering, though, how readily this sense will transfer to stage or recording studio. And if taking it there is even the appropriate approach.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
'If someone comes up to compliment me, instead of "you're a wonderful fiddler," what I genuinely hope to hear is "That was a wonderful tune!"'
A few months ago, after a session, a friend remarked to me, "I love playing with you - I find that you're a really *giving* player." I'd never thought of my playing in terms of "giving", but I was so touched by that comment, and felt that it, more so than "you play really well" [I don't], made me feel like I was playing at sessions *correctly*, such as it is.
I harbour no ambitions to play on stage, in part because I don't feel I have the sort of charisma and showmanship necessary to do so, nor the interest in developing them.
But further to the theme of "listen to this" vs "listen to me": A couple of months ago, I attended a fiddle camp where Liz Carroll was one of the teachers. We students had a performance, before which she casually remarked to me that performing made her nervous - which shocked me, as she always appears so utterly at ease on the stage. But when she performs, she jokes around a bit and talks about the tunes then she gets straight to business. she knows that the tunes, and her interpretations of them, speak for themselves. (I had seen her perform years before I met her, and was struck by how similar she sounded when talking on stage as when she was having a one-on-one conversation with me.)
The next night all of the instructors held a concert, and the MC introduced her while she set herself up. The MC's introduction was more than a little effusive, consisting mostly of gushing about how lucky we were to have this brilliant fiddler with us at the camp: "...and then at the session [other instructor] said, oh my God, I'm playing with Liz Carroll! And I said - I KNOW! I can't believe how lucky we were..." And on and on like for another minute, at which point the MC saw that Liz had finished setting up, so she concluded, "Ok, it looks like Liz is ready, so I'll get off the stage now."
Replied Liz, "Yes, please do." In other words: enough about me; there are tunes to be played.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Will - I have to admit to being guilty of trolling with my last comment. I did it because I knew most of the posts were going to follow the company line about how this is "all about the music and not the player."
I find that response a little too cliche for me. Although I've only been around the session scene for about 10 or 11 years, in my limited experience, the really top end players have a little bit of a healthy ego - and that is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact playing with folks like that always made me play better. The top enders, through years of playing and trial and error, played tunes with a confidence that the rest of us couldn't touch.
Will, I know you played sports - a musical performance isn't too far removed from that mindset in my opinion. The folks who have impressed me the most musically have always played fearlessly. Yes, this music can stand on it's own of course - but for a really impressive performance, I believe it takes a person who is not afraid to let their ego come out and dance a bit.
I grew up in a hyper-competitive family so I realize most here will think I'm a loon for taking this position. But I like a little swagger from a solo performance.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
What's the most money, or who is the best top-ender performer you have heard?
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Random - is that question for me? I'm not sure what you're asking in regards to money. My top-ender reference is only in relation to good session players I have met in the western united states - but folks like that are everywhere. And just so I am not misunderstood - I am not suggesting rudeness or arrogance - just confidence born from a healthy ego and years of playing.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
JNE, I saw the bait and only nibbled.
But I *do* appreciate your perspective because I think a fair number of people listen to musicians the way you describe. I get what you're saying, and as a former baseball pitcher, I readily see similarities between being on the mound and being on stage.
The problem with the sports analogy is that sports are about someone winning and someone else losing. So there's a genuine need--in competitive play at least--to be assertive, aggressive, even dominating. That's fine for sports, but I don't want to play music that way. And I'm not out to impress anyone with my technique or skill or musical "prowess."
I just want to play the music well, so well that it speaks for itself. No doubt some people won't think much of that, but then I don't plan on going on tour, selling tens of dollars worth of cds, or winning any contests. And I'm perfectly happy disappointing anyone who wants a virtuoso. Other musicians can take that applause.
What I'd like to do is play some solo sets of tunes at the camps and festivals that I teach at, maybe make a cd of accessible but intriguing tunes for aspiring fiddlers to learn from, and feel generally more at home in my own skin doing this in front of audiences. (It's felt good lately; but there's always room for improvement.)
So part of what I'm after on this thread is clarifying and maybe even resolving some of the ambivalence that Martin talked about and that I too have felt. And another part is sussing out and refining my own expectations and ambitions about this aspect of playing the music. It's easy to coast along for years playing in sessions and doing the odd gig with a band. But solo playing, especially for discerning listeners, is different, challenging in ways sessions aren't. I know that from past experience and am actively pondering those challenges with each new experience.
The insights and exploratory thoughts on this thread have been extremely helpful. Again, thanks!
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Sorry about the money reference but I was following on this comment, "If I've paid money to see a performance, by golly I want that artist to play all out ..."
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Well said Will, and I agree with you completely - I'm just trying to keep the conversation lively....
Random - in for a penny, in for a pound! Gimme all you got
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I'll add this:
As this music has gone from kitchens and crossroad ceilis to concert halls and major recording labels, it feels to me like a lot of the amateur charm and unpretentiousness of players like Paddy Canny and Junior Crehan has been lost. There's a ton more marketing hype over All-Ireland winners and Irish "super bands" and the "most acclaimed" individual players.
I'm sure Paddy Canny knew he was widely appreciated by fans of the music, but I doubt he worried much about competing for attention and market share with the hot shots who followed.
In short, this music has become (for those who make a living at it) another arm of the music industry.
As a writer, I heard a thousand times the old advice of "write the kind of books you'd want to read, you'd want to keep on your nightstand." Thinking the same might apply to music, when I play for an audience, I prefer to play the kind of music--and in the passionate, confident, but unassuming manner--that I cut my teeth on from players like Canny and Crehan. To me, that's what's missing from many traditional recordings these days, and from the big concert-hall shows. I admire Randal Bays for going the route of playing small house-concerts--that sounds more appropriate to me for this music.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I saw Kevin Burke at a house concert a few months ago - his performance fits perfectly into the mindset you're describing there Will - passionate, confident and unassuming.
When you have your set list ready - give us a call - we're always looking to host a house concert down here in AZ!
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Heh, does an unassuming house concert require a set list?
See, these are the sorts of questions I'm daydreaming about.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
LOL - Nope - I 'spose not.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Reading on through this thread, what I'm feeling more and more is that the inner balance, energy and expression of the player, or shall we say the person is what you're on about Will.
That's what comes out in the music and it takes a rather extrordinary kind of life experience to create a person with the type of balance and perspective that it takes to convey an energy that is what I think you are speaking of.
I can't help but think of all the kind and gentle people I've run across through the years who really do exhibit an inner peace and sense of being that makes everyone around them feel grand. Sadly the number of folks like that are few but it gives us all something to aspire to when we are lucky enough to run across them. This is a great thread. Very inspiring.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
If it sounds good, it must be good.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Zazzaliss
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Maybe an ignorant question, but what *exactly* do people understand by 'respecting the music'? Does it mean playing a faithful rendition of what you heard/learned, be it from another person or from a recording? If so, there seems to be a conflict here between being respecting the tune and 'making it your own'.
I confess that yesterday, as I was playing a fast reel, my fingers dropped into a configuration during one phrase, that worked fine and came pefectly naturally, but which actually simplified it slightly compared to the original written version, (which came from this site btw...)
Is that 'making it my own' or 'failing to respect the music'?
And if this is not so, what else should I be doing to make it my own while still respecting it? I most definitely do not want to defile the music - it is playing the tunes that is important, not this player - but do a) not playing a traditional instrument and b) not coming from the music's native home, and hence perhaps not having that intuitive feel for it (despite 30 years of listening) mean that I cannot help *but* disrespect the music when I play?
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by ian stock
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
The simple answer to that is when music is passed on it is not just a bunch of tunes or particular settings. Handed down is a whole lot more. attitudes and above all a sense of aesthetic. A sense what is right or not so right, what sounds good and not so good.
Respecting music, the tradition or whatever you want to call it is about internalising that sense of aesthetic and operate within the wide and fuzzy boundaries set by the community.
So it's not about changing the one or two notes, altering a phrase It's about whether or not what you do isn't violating the overall aesthetic.
Ofcourse there's huge scope for interpretation there as there won't be any clear lines drawn.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
This has to be one of my favourite threads btw.
I no longer have it but this thread has reminded me of an interesting book:
http://www.amazon.com/Heartbeat-Irish-Music-Peter-Woods/dp/1570981345
It's been some time since I saw my own copy (but then,who 'owns' books anyway?) but I think some of the stuff in it resonates with your OP and the subsequent replies.
There's a lot in it about coming back to the music from the various tangents that crossed several players' lives.
Apart from anything else there are some great photographs!
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by biggus dave
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Thanks, Prof. - but that could still be very fuzzy to someone who didn't already know what you mean.
If by aesthetic, you simply mean developing an ear for the music, then I guess that's easy enough - for example, I am quite comfortable with modality in a way that my non-trad musical colleagues find quite difficult. I also recognise the various forms and structures of tune, and my fingers find the patterns on the fretboard pretty instinctively. Heck, I even find them making up tunes when I'm not watching... All done on an almost pure diet of 30 years of recordings and intermittent visits to my local folk club.
But picking up 'attitude' is pretty difficult if you don't happen to live surrounded by it. I guess you mean assimilating the culture? I would struggle, for example, to distinguish between the various regional styles of playing in Ireland, but can you blame me? I don't live there, never have, and a diet of recorded bands isn't going to do that for me - but it might still make what I play sound 'bad' to those in the know.
But then, try explaining the differences between, say, Alsatian French and Langedocien French accents to anyone other than a native speaker - you have to be pretty darned good to pick them up... So where does that leave the rest of us?
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by ian stock
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Great topic for discussion...
Here's a change-up.
What does this sentence sound like?
"It was the best of times. It was the worst of times."
If you're an American from Rhode Island it sounds the way I said it.
If you're Irish it sounds Irish. If you're Aussie it sounds Aussie.
Etc. Etc...
No matter what we do, we can't escape our roots and accents.
It's the same sentence, but it sounds different from anyone who says it.
How can musical expression be any different?
You hear a tune at a session. It sounds great. You decide to learn it.
No matter what you do, you're going to come up with your own way of playing it.
It won't sound exactly like what you first heard no matter how hard you try.
You will be playing the tune in your own unique way, that's never been heard before.
I've been accused of playing (some) tunes oddly. I get funny looks when I announce
the name of a tune that no one joined in on, only to discover that everyone knows the tune name, "only it goes like this...". I've decided that in these cases, I should just rename the tune,
to something similar. For example, my version of "The Traveller" is "The Tarveller".
"The Salamanca" is "The Samalanca". This is sort of my accent that I can't get rid of.
I really don't mind my own accent even though I can't detect it. I'm not going to a class to get rid of it. It's me. I can't alter my fingerprints. I'm guilty as charged.
Well, that's kind of how I reacted to this topic. Everyone has a musical accent. The well-known musicians mentioned in this thread all have an accent. Why should they attempt to cover it up?
People will pay to listen to them again and again precisely because of the unique accent and personality they provide. (2-hours or more can be a long time though for one performer. That's why we have sessions...)
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by halfwaythere
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Accents. I like that. And it may have more than a grain of truth in it.
I recall once long ago, when talking about taking up the uilleanns with an elder piper in Clare, he suggest learning Irish, especially for air-playing. He thought you needed to learn the music of the language as well, to adeptt with the music on the pipes.
And, FWIW, I think I agree with the Prof, on how music, and style, is handed down:
A lot of the tunes I play have a definite connection to where I first heard them and who was playing (only natural, as that was when I was first "inspired" to take them on). So, when I reach for them, what i hear in my head is a memory of a performance (paid or just sharing) of the tune, with a mood and a visual frequently attached.
So, without trying to sound too poetic or saccharine about it, I think I am often playing what I remember, mixed with my mood of the moment.
The respecting the tradition part will always be a debatable thing, like anything about trying to make music, and my above posting said MOST of what my thoughts are on performing for pay, albeit a bit crudely.
I will observe that I think if Coleman, Clancy, Peoples, Keenan, J. Cunningham, Burke, etc. etc. had played exactly like the musicians who taught, guided, and inspired them, they would not have had any of the impact on the rest of the musical that they did have. They would have been preservers of a tradition, not innovators.
Both take a certain kind of integrity and guts.
For Boatpiper:
I apologize, on re-reading my posting above, it surely did sound a bit like I was talking in terms of judgment.
I assure you, I do not judge other musicians or sneer at what works for them, rather I only hold my own opinion of if I happen to like it or not. And I really am not going to get an attitude about anyone's success, especially if they are happy and so are their listeners. They are entitled to their POV just like the rest of us, right?
And in any case, any experienced musician who would judge anothers musical performance on any level is usually, at best, displaying a very poor or convenient memory of their own experience.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Piece
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
But how far can you go with the accent argument before you change it into something else? You could argue that those people aren't speaking English, they're speaking American, Australian etc....
But I suspect that would count as a loss of respect, and would certainly dilute the 'attitude'.
- and I suspect it isn't just about technical excellence.
No more can I construct an 'authentic' Irish cottage in my back garden, just because I want to - or Irish bar in my local town (as any number of pastiche Oirish bars around the world will testify...) Too many contextual compromises.
Likewise with the music, how far do you go with adding your own accent before it stops being Irish? It is all the harder in the age of modern mass-communication: despite considering myself pretty immersed in modern-style traditional music, I still sometimes find it hard to stop influences from elsewhere creeping in.
Maybe I shouldn't try, but instinct says that there is a difference between acceptable evolution and musical cross-pollution. I *think* Donal Lunny fell on the right side of line that first time he played a bouzouki in a session; I am not sure that Salsa Celtica or the Red Hot Chilli Pipers, for example, do... The only alternative resolution is to divorce the music from its origins and call it World Music
I wonder whether there *are* in fact more people outside Scotland/Ireland who play the music than inside...
Maybe this is all just pulling wings of musical flies, but nobody has yet offered to pay to listen to *me* playing ITM for two hours
To be fair, perhaps it's a bit like cooking - other people's always tastes better than your own...
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by ian stock
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Well then, taking into account accents, spices, personal preferences, baseball, and style - what then defines a great solo performer/performance in this quirky genre that we all love? What separates a great performance from a person just playing a tune?
On a side note, Kevin Burke had a set list -
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Lots of food for thought.
). Time to re-read it.
JNE, duly noted. I tend to keep a set list in my head, but I frequently revise it in the middle of playing. Another perk of playing solo--it doesn't throw anyone else off track.
biggus Dave, that book is a good read and I love the pix. I have it on my shelves somewhere (maybe it's your long lost copy
Rook, I really like your juxtaposition of "integrity and guts." That's the bull's eye I'm aiming for. And ian, the questions you raise are exactly the ones running through my mind. I live in Montana USA, haven't been to Ireland since I was 5, am not interested in making myself over to try to be Irish (no walking caps, Aran sweaters, or phony brogue for me). But people routinely pay me to teach them to play Irish music and come away saying "best less/class/workshop I've ever had, you have a gift." And I seriously struggle with that because ***I*** greatly respect the heritage and cultural context and *life* that creates players like Martin Hayes, coming from generations of Irish fiddlers in Clare, nephew of Paddy Canny, mentored by Martin Rochford, six time All-Ireland winner....the "credentials" go on and on. Who am I?
I like Martin's own answer to that: "Anyone can have the gift of music...it's the gift of loving the music."
So maybe 30 years of deeply listening and playing and learning and seeking out mentors and being head over heels immersed in the music *is* enough, no matter where you live or what accent or local spices you bring to it. I don't want to run away from my own roots or who I am, but neither do I want to play watered down Irish traditional music. It's a tricky thing to make someone else's culture somehow your own, while remaining true to yourself....
It's interesting to me how many American fiddlers compete in the All-Ireland. It must feel good just to qualify, and just to place. A stamp of acceptance or even approval of sorts. But music as competition doesn't appeal to me. Less formal forms of acceptance will have to do.
FWIW, this thread has at least helped me see that other musicians grapple with the same doubts and questions. And your insights and internal responses to those doubts are a big help. Thanks yet again!
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Just be yourself, Will. You're obviously learning from those generational fiddlers, & passing it on, even though you're not one yourself. While you cannot fake that sort of thing, you do your best to treat it with respect.
Speaking of accents always has me thinking ... I continued from here to write alot more stuff & realized I have only skimmed through this discussion. Maybe after I do a bit a reading, solo playing, & er ... uh, catch up on the chores.
Ben
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Just to clarify my sports analogy Will, I am not referring to competition against others - winners and losers, etc. I am speaking of the mental preparation. Getting yourself to that focused, calm controlled command when pitching is similar to getting ready to a solo performance - would you agree? It is a competition against yourself - defeating the demons of self-doubt, of distraction and self-imposed restraint that I mean. Losing that fear of making a mistake. The great performers seem to have no fear.
I'm not saying this is apropos to your situation, however, just an observation.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Thanks for initating and nurturing another great thread, Will.
From the tg4 link provided above by ceemonster I messed around on the site and discovered the programme on Tommy Potts - allthough this may be far away from your aspirations I think there are several points there that relate to the questions you initially posed.
Paddy Glackin taught in the neck of the Norwegian woods and( 10-15 years ago), and I remember him spending a lot of time talking warmly about Tommy Potts. Although I shamefully admit the Liffey Banks CD has collected a lot of dust over the years, this program has inspired me to listen further and get hold of the upcoming CD release.
Tommy Potts was clearly a daring man who followed his instincts and inspiration in his music. It was refreshing to see how ”Mambo Italiano” could be an inspiration in irsish music context ( tempting to draw an parallell to how O´Carolan was influenced by the italian contemporaries here). I think this anecdote (provided at 10:31 in part 1) illustrates that it should be allowed to create and put your own ideas into the music.
http://live.tg4.ie/main.aspx?level=SiarBothar&content=151343170561
http://live.tg4.ie/main.aspx?level=Cerbh&content=151352294401
Tommy”purely played to his own enjoyment, not to impress” as his daughter puts it towards the end of the second part.
With this spirit I think you should feel free to foster and record whatever your mind breeds. Having followed your postings for a decade I am sure you will focus on the possibilities rather than the limitations while keeping the integrity of the tradition.
…and please be sure to let us know where and when we can get hold of your upcoming recordings !
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by FiddleTramp
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
FiddleTramp, thanks for the links. A lot of great fiddlers hold Tommy Potts in very high regard--he's a source, muse, point of reference for many. I too need to spend more time listening to him.
At this point, I have no idea what sort of recordings will develop. It's just a bit weird being the only teacher at a camp who doesn't have a cd to sell. (Sure, I could use the tens of dollars of extra pocket money, but what I'm really after is a handy way to give students a few tunes to learn from.)
JNE, yeah, I totally agree with the mindset thing. Although I don't see it as in inner contest either. Just letting go of the less productive facets of ego.
If you think the best players have no fear, you should ask some of them about this. I haven't met one yet that doesn't have serious doubts and fears every time they go in front of an audience. It may look and sound like that disappears when they play, but they say otherwise.
Somehow it's comforting though to know that opera diva Beverly Sills, who puked before every single concert, could say, with complete conviction, "You may fail, but you're doomed if you never try."
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Just a few things I saw in recent posts.
Ian s.: When I talk about the 'aesthetic' I mean that in the company of traditional musicians you will get a feel for what is acceptable playing music and what is not fitting. It's the gentle 'we used to play it like this..' way of saying you may re-consider what you just did. And all these other little things that help you get an ear for what's appreciated and what's not. It's immersion.
I don't know about the 'accent' thing. Everybody is the sum of his/her influences. You absorb and incorporate all the things you like from all musicians you encounter. The deeper you immerse, the deeper these influences will be.
Will, I don't know about the 'mentored by Martin Rochford'. Martin wasn't one for the mentoring or the teaching. He'd play and talk (lots of giving out)and show things he thought you'd find interesting. Visiting Martin meant immersion in music, lakes of tea and mountains of sandwiches. I was talking to Martin R. outside the church after Junior Crehan's funeral when Martin H. approached. 'You never come visit anymore now you're famous, but you play great music' Rochford called out. 'I got it all from you Martin', Hayes replied.
Last time I saw Hayes and Canny together was in the West County in Ennis at the announcement of the TG4 gradam winners (Hayes got musician of the year). The two were talking music and playing air fiddles for eachother. It was a lovely sight, I had the camera but it was too dark to get a shot.
Most people playing on stage will have a degree of nervousness. Different people deal with it in different ways. A few years ago I played at a concert that among others had Tommy Peoples on the bill. He REALLY didn't want to be there and said as much as he cam on stage (only to find one of the pegs of the fiddle had slipped and he had to do a full re-tune). It was amazing to see how he 'went inward' as soon as he started playing, totally in a world of his own, fully 'in' his music. I have seen him do that a few times since although he was not as wound up as that particular time so the contrast wasn't as defined.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Prof., yep, you're right. My memory's a bit fuzzy, but Mr. Hayes might have corrected himself when he said "mentored" by Martin Rochford. But he certainly was a wellspring for the music.
Even on YouTube clips, you can see Tommy Peoples start out tight and self-conscious and quickly go "in." It took me years (and years) to be able to do that myself. And it doesn't even have to be nerves, just the typical distractions of playing solo in front of a crowd--people coughing, babies crying, a squeaky chair. I can play through anything now, but in the early goings the least thing would snap my mind away from the tune.
Peter, your contributions on this thread are grand--I have an inkling of your own experience, going to Ireland, steeping yourself in the music and people. So it helps hugely to hear your thoughts on all this. Thank you, sir.
I'll say too that the feedback I've gotten over the years from well-immersed Irish players has always been supportive, nurturing, welcoming into the fold even. And I've seen the same accorded to anyone plainly passionate about this music.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Yes - I can see I've contradicted myself. Claiming the need to focus and defeat fear within and yet have no fear to begin with. Perhaps I'm just enamored with the illusion of fearlessness - something I do not possess LOL.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
LOL, JNE, people often tell me how relaxed I look when I play. If they only knew!
No, really, most of the time I *am* utterly relaxed. What's interesting is that appearances don't alter much (apparently) when I'm not relaxed.
"Confidence is often mistaken for competence."
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
A short bit on nerves and jitters, from the performing art of legerdemain.
During own my brief and inglorious stint as a prestidigitator, I brought up the subject of stage fright to a rather prominent magician, and asked if he still got nervous.
His reply was, in summation:
"When you no longer get a little nervous before a performance, think about hanging it up. You will have stopped really caring about how it goes."
Food for thought is all.
I know I still get nervous, even at a really fun gig.
But better jacked up and "ready for a fight" than jaded and indifferent, at least I hope.
FWIW,
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Piece
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I think Hayes has moved in different directions since and the Rochford influence was stronger during the early 90s. I doubt he could ever get away from it though.
I count Martin Rochford among my own life-changing encounters and I regret not visiting him more often than I did when I could.
He was a man of strong convictions and opinions and not shy to express them. I had known him for a long time as a piper, first time we visited the house and he took the fiddle down completely altered how I think about music.
To get back to the 'mentoring' he'd talk about things he did, why he did them but as so often with musicians of that generation it was almost in passing and you'd have to be quick and pick up on what he was on about. Mind you, my (now) wife had just started the fiddle at the time and he enjoyed showing her little things on the fiddle. I remember talking to his wife though about his family taking up music. 'No' she said, 'he doesn't have the patience for teaching beginners'.
You're right, the old guys were always very supportive. Once they sussed there was a genuine interest and commitment there. It's how it should be.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Rook, I enjoy the buzz of performing.
While still staying focused on my own sense of the music.
I'm wondering more about how to prevent that from turning into self indulgence on stage (or in the studio). The everybody *loves me" syndrome.
The adrenalin I get from playing music is different than when I was a professional juggler. I don't know why.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Will,
>> I don't want to run away from my own roots or who I am, but neither do I want to play watered down Irish traditional music. It's a tricky thing to make someone else's culture somehow your own, while remaining true to yourself....
That comment sums it up for me, too. I don't want to be fake Irish/Scottish, but I do want to do the music justice. Perhaps the people at real risk of devaluing the culture are those who don't think about it enough even ask themselves the question, not those who fail to come up with an complete answer.
The only bit I have yet to resolve is how, as a non-native, to sing dialect songs properly. My best answer to date (and probaly the one I'll stick with) is, "Don't"
I also love the buzz of performing, though it's many years since I got the chance. Even more when performing to non-knowledgeable audiences - just the buzz of blowing people away with a music they never heard before, without having to be Tommy Potts to do it!
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by ian stock
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Ian, I take heart from the fact that even musicians born into families immersed in the music sometimes ponder similar questions. I've had some great conversations with just such people.
# Posted on August 29th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
My apologies for chiming in so late on this thread but I've been away. I like what people are saying here. And it reminds me of one of my favorite experiences with solo performances.
I was at a James Kelly solo concert in Seattle many years ago. He played for a couple hours (with a break) and the music was really incredible. The audience was mesmerized/rapt/spellbound/hypnotized ... chose your adjective ... and it was a great concert altogether. When it was over, James Kelly sat on the stage talking to people from the audience who came up. Pretty soon, he was asking people if they'd like to play a few tunes with him (I guess he figured out that the people who were talking to him were fiddle players). Anyway, within half an hour, there were 12 or 15 fiddle players on the stage playing tunes with James Kelly. Much of the first audience had left, but now there was a new audience - equally rapt, etc.... and the tunes went on for another couple of hours. I didn't play with all of them but I listened and I was really glad to be there.
I think this gets to something you are thinking about, Will. His playing really releases the music, in my opinion. I think he probably knows this on some level, too. And, in addition to being able to communicate with the music, he is able to establish ad hoc relationships with other who express their appreciation of the way he plays. I don't know if this kind of thing ever happened outside of Seattle, but I think it probably did just because of the way it happened: It was unplanned, spontaneous, and "in the moment". It is a great skill to be able to tie the music and the people who play it together, I think, and when a solo performer does it like James did after a performance, it's fantastic.
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by John Culhane
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
That's a great story tacoman. And I like the idea, the notion of inviting local players to sit in. Could be part of the "show," maybe the second half, making it less of a show and more of a led session. Cool.
I could listen to James Kelly for hours....
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
>> I don't know if this kind of thing ever happened outside of Seattle, but I think it probably did just because of the way it happened: It was unplanned, spontaneous, and "in the moment". It is a great skill to be able to tie the music and the people who play it together,
Something similar still happens within the revival scene too, Tacoman. Over the years, I have been offered a play on numerous musicians' instruments simply through talking to them between sets.
One of the most memorable was Rosie Cross' hammered dulcimer (Pyewackett) back in the mid '80's, and only a couple of weeks ago, Cameron Robson of Bellevous Rendezvous handed over his seriously valuable cittern for me to try. I never ask nor expect, I should emphasise - I simply like talking to the musicians about what they play - and particularly in this age of commercialised musical Celebrity, their unassuming willingness to respond and mingle with their audience is one of the most endearing aspects of this music, to my mind.
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by ian stock
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Will: Juggler? Me too. Used to busk a bit. Solo, never got into passing much.
Humility is an odd thing. Self-importance, stardom, celebrity, all that - how does a person handle being reminded regularly how great they are? How about throwing in a few competitions where they took first place to make it official? I believe I have observed a few performers at various levels of technical skill who may have been told, "You are the GREATEST!" and they went and believed it. And they now seem to behave like they perceive themselves as such, for better or worse.
I have occasionally been told I play all right, but I do not tend to listen. Somewhere, long ago, I received some fundamental lesson about life,and then built up a wall against extravagant compliments and superlatives. I cannot think what kind of positive or negative lesson that was just now, but it stuck.
So if I am asked to get up in front of people to share something of mine, it is with my hat in my hand. I am hoping they will like it, and, if they paid to hear or see it, I hope they do not feel ripped off.
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by Piece
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
A reasonable grounding for such matters is that if anyone ever tells me I'm really good it just goes to show that they don't know what they are talking about. So that always sorts me out. (it didn't in the past though, I'm ashamed to say - which could have been one of the reasons I gave up performing)
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by ...
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
The other musicians at my local session often request me to play something for them ie solo. I hate it, my hands shake and I have the biggest fear I'm gonna mess up (which does happen believe me) but they keep at me so i have to do it. I find it so much more a pleasant experience if I close my eyes and picture myself just being in my bedroom playing alone for myself... I'm not sure if this means its about ME or about the music, I'd like to think its about the music. Imagining you are completely on your own allows you to (this sounds cheesy) "lose yourself" in the music, enjoy the melody far more.
Possibly this could become self-indulgent but if you're really listening / enjoying what you're playing I think that will come across in a way that will help your listeners enjoy the "performance" more.. Also I like to play tunes that I think they haven't heard before, so they can learn them too, rather than your regular "showstoppers" that people often play to showcase their quick fingers or whatever. That said, I would pick different tunes when asked by fellow musicians or asked by my non irish music playing friends - for them I always feel obliged to play something more impressive as I feel it justifies my obsession with ITM!! (possibly shallow but I feel the need to promote this wonderful music among my peers)!
And thats my tuppence worth!
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by person
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
>>if anyone ever tells me I'm really good it just goes to show that they don't know what they are talking about
But against that, set the fact that the better you get, the worse you feel. It's only when you start doing something that you begin to appreciate just how high is the mountain you are climbing. Those who haven't even started simply have no conception.
The more you advance, the more sophisticated you are likely to become - and the more self-critical; you tend to look up, not down, and consequently often fail to see how far you have come.
So surely it depends on who is dishing out the praise as to how seriously you should take it - someone further up the hill, or someone lower down?
O.K., so I confess to working in education, and such truisms are my stock in trade...
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by ian stock
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I've heard the analogy of learning to play diddley music as climbing a hill with no top many times. I think it's self defeatist nonsense. You should grow up from questioning your own capabilities, it's not only defeatist, it's divisive. How are you gonna enjoy yourself playing when you are constantly dividing the people around you into people behind you on the hill and people in front of you.
You may think that the more you advance, the more sophisticated you are likely to become and the more self-critical, but sooner or later you are gonna have to settle down and realise that beating your head against a wall of sophistication is just not how this music works. There is a plateau of technique nessesary to play this music right at the top level and that plateau is not very high. But once there, the quest of pleasure from the music is to eschew any lofty thoughts of sophistication and just get on and enjoy it and share it.
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by ...
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Llig, I think you misunderstood me. I am not looking for any pretentious sophistication in the music, nor to suggest there is no satisfaction to be had from playing well. Quite the contrary.
I was talking about one's expecations, that are constantly recalibrated as you progress. I was annoyed the other day not to be able to play the Dean Brig o' Edinburgh through on sight, until I remembered that, for Godssake, it is in E flat major - a key I would not have even attempted (on mandolin) some years ago. It didn't come out too badly anyway - and will be better with practice. Knowing that is a mark of experience
But all that had changed was my expectations of what I can do - that's what I meant by increasing sophistication. So in some ways I didn't feel any better than when I was a novice attempting something much simpler.
What *had* changed is the confidence with which to approach it, and the knowledge that I would get there eventually. The real satisfaction of playing well is more subtle than a simple 'I can do it' - I don't need to question my ability, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to be better still.
As for the height of the plateau, without knowing much about you, I wonder whether you have forgotten the steps by which you ascended? Look at how many posts there are here about the need to improve technique and the acquire subtleties and nuances that only come with experience.
My bet is that even the masters discussed here recently carried on improving, even if slowly at their level; but perhaps they just didn't angst about it all to the degree that present-day people do. But self-scrutiny is surely an essential part of how most people learn...
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by ian stock
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I think we could all learn a lot from Darragh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1tMeLRK5HY
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by Bernie 29
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I'm with Michael here. I'm not concerned much with technique. The improvements there still come, but they're in small increments.
It's more about personal interpretation of the tune. And wondering how a bygone style will go over with today's listeners, accustomed as they are to pyrotechnics and highly (overly) emotive playing (and body language).
Hmmm. I'll have to find out.
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Heh, my trouble may be that I simply can't believe any good press that ever comes my way.
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Bernie, yep, Darragh and Ms Hickey (the young girl on fiddle in the oft posted clip).
As Picasso said, it took him 30 years to learn to paint like a child. I should be right on schedule then.
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
On a recent visit my six year old niece said she thought I played the banjo really well
....better than frogs.
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
C'mon Harmon! Tell me young Darragh isn't rockin' a little bit of swagger with that solo bit - that's the shizzle I'm on about. That kid killed it!
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Hmmm. I didn't see swagger so much as going in himself (even to the point of eyes rolling back in his head). Just living inside the tune and not self conscious.
Interesting contrast to a master, where he seems a little tight until the clunk at 0:36 and he cracks a quick smile, then seems to go further inside the tune. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHqFlS3gNMs&feature=related
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Give it over Jusa. No ham in that Harmon whatsoever.
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Yep - this is a tough room. I think I'll take my schtick back over to the next bodhran/guitar wind-up thread. Much more fertile ground for my wisearesery. Humility and honesty - Hmmmph!
# Posted on August 31st 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I want to know, if Will were obliged to perform, what he would do if the audience, in lieu of more sophisticated technical displays, wants danger and excitement.
When you are a juggler, well, you could just set something on fire, or throw something really sharp about, or grab a "volunteer".
Folk instruments, though, I am not sure.
You could ignite a bodhran, I suppose,
but that might seem rather cliche.
# Posted on August 31st 2010 by Piece
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
If it's danger you're after, it's time to take up the pipes.
and respect goes to you Rook for the honesty about how another player is looked at earlier in the thread.
My herky jerky playing gives me no right to point fingers at anybody. Except myself.
# Posted on August 31st 2010 by Gone to work
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Every time I think of juggling fiddlers I think of this fellow;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg2yGp8eiuM
# Posted on August 31st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
I did juggle three banjos once. Unfortunately, I didn't drop a one.
# Posted on August 31st 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
Was that when the audience went,
"Awwwwwwwwwww!!"
Usually for me, it was when I bit into the hatchet instead of the apple.
Boatpiper:
Thank you.
My highest respect to you, as well.
# Posted on August 31st 2010 by Piece
Re: WARNING: Risk of Abstract Blather Overload. "On Playing Solo...."
[I like the idea, the notion of inviting local players to sit in]
both liz carroll and paddy keenan often do this.....i've seen keenan just make the last third or more a session....
# Posted on September 4th 2010 by ceemonster