The Session >> Discussions >> Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Comments
Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
"Session Speed". The road to getting there.
Now that I have been playing a few years and fully appreciative of the wise counsel recieved from my Teacher and my freinds here to play and learn slowly. (The last month has been spent with Martin Hayes recordings. Amazing collection of work.) I am looking at the next hill to climb- playing with the 'big boys'.
I Have been in a number of intermediate sessions, 'old man's' sessions, and private sessions where the pace was comfortable and held my own as it were.
But the really lightning fast sessions. Embarrassing. I know alot of the tunes, but the hands just start doing what we used to call 'blobbida-blobbida'.
I suppose it is like (American baseball reference) the when you moved from the medium batting cage to the 'fast pitch' batting cage as a kid. Reaction is "Whoooa!". But you had to learn the timing, sharpen the techniques that sort of thing to 'get on the pitch'. You have to get over the anxiety of working at speed.
To the more experienced players...when you (probably ignoring the wise counsel of your teachers and players who felt themselves to be gurus to play slow and speed will come in time) decided to jump in learn to learn the skills to play at Session Speed, how did you do it?
One book I read just said to alternate in with the slow practices times periods when you play faster than you think you can and ignore the mistakes...or as the book said, give yourself the freedom to make mistakes. I've tried it playing along with lightning players' CD's and the results would be humorous if they weren't so embarrassing.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Playing at speed is all about relaxing and economy of motion. Remember Steve Martin's old routine about "let's get small"? That's important. You want to minimize the size of the movements needed to get the music out.
The relaxation bit can be tricky--most folks have a counterproductive tendency to tighten up when pushing the pace. It helped me to focus less on speed or precision and aim instead to sound as effortless as possible. Striving to keep up leads to sounding frantic. Striving to play without mistakes leads to sounding stilted. So instead, simply aim to sound relaxed, at any pace.
You'll probably get advice to work with a metronome. FInd a tempo that's within your comfort zone, and then notch it up 2 or 4 bpm until you find your ceiling.
You can do the same thing with another player (your teacher?). Play a tune at a comfortable pace. Then have the other player bump the pace up a little. Focus less on the tempo change and more on how the new pace affects the phrasing. Often you'll hear more flow and continuity at a slightly faster pace. Feel that. Let it come out in your playing. For me, this is easier to do when playing with another human being than a metronome.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Sorry zippy, I should post something productive but I think Will has it all covered. Those methods are much better than what I used, the old 'get in and hang on for dear life'.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
That was my approach too, SWFL. But it might be easier to do that for a fiddle player than a box player. Personally, if I knew someone who was several years into playing a box, I would invite them to a session (if I had one) because I like the sound of the box so much. Maybe there are others like that where you live, zippydw. As others have said many times before here, you might not be able to play at the speed they all play in the beginning but chances are, they will play at your speed on the tunes you play. That will be fun. And as time goes by, you will get more comfortable playing and, hopefully (for you) be able to play the tunes they play at the speed they play them.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I still feel like when I get in I am hanging on for dear life...You know what that dog who regularly chased the milk truck felt like when he finally caught it (" O S**t... now what do I do with it?!?)
It still feels like the first time I had someone throw a 100mph fast ball in my direction.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I made the varsity baseball team in my freshman year in high school. Talk about being in over your head. (They needed a lefty pitcher.) One of the coaches had pitched in the minors. He pitched batting practice for us every day. After a couple of weeks, he started throwing harder. The first time he blew a 96 mph (we had a radar gun) fastball by me, I was still finishing my swing as the catcher was tossing the ball back to the mound.
I fouled off a lot of fastballs right down the pike at first. But the more I did it, the easier it got, and I was able to relax in the batter's box (inched back as far as I could go without whomping the catching in the head). My first line drive into right field (batting lefty) felt really good.
Batting in the regular season was a cake walk after that. There wasn't a pitcher in the league who threw over 90.
As tacoman says, get out there and do it. Get the session to play some tunes at your pace. Keep going back.
Also, ask your teacher to troubleshoot your playing for tips on how to economize motion, both fingers and bellows. And to point out any tension so you can release it.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Hi Zip
I agree completely with all the advice from Will and others about relaxation. Minimizing the movements, especially. I've been at the box for a few years now but I well remember the first time I played a set of reels in a danceband at full tilt. Afterwards I felt I'd just spent two rounds in the wrestling wring with Mick McManus (there, that's dated me and placed me geographically)...
I'm happy to report that it no longer feels like that at all, in fact playing fast is quite OK (on tunes that suit the box mind you, LOL). The difference is that I'm no longer fighting the instrument. Quite how this transition occurred I'm not sure exactly.
I think focusing on not playing loudly is a help - after all boxes are always too loud, and you can play discreetly and still add to the music by giving judicious oomph to the right notes. That's one thing.
Another is drilling the tunes into your brain during practice by constant, unrelenting repetition. For me this has been more of an issue with the box than with any other instrument I am halfway competent on. Much, much more of an issue. Maybe because on a push-pull system the left arm movements have to be perfectly and totally unconsciously integrated with the right hand, so that you never think about them, not even for a nanosecond, and never fight the instrument that way.
Derrane made a point of telling people in a class I attended that you need to practise at least an hour a day, and two hours a day if you really want to get anywhere. And that you should practise using the same fingering every time. Worked for him...
A light and easy-playing box is a help too - I didn't ask to try your Connemara III at ED but owning a similarly configured Serenellini I suspect it might not be such a piece of cake. I have gone back to 2-voice boxes, much easier on the old body. A friend of mine has a Cairdin mini (well played in) that is unbelievably easy to play. Really it makes warp speed a doddle.
Anyway keep at it. In another two years your question might well be totally redundant.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
The relaxation game is a difficult one. Our natural reaction to trying to do something faster is to do it *harder*. If you tense up, and try to push yourself, it only helps you get faster up to a point, and then it becomes a huge hinderance. (And you might hurt yourself in the process). If you watch any great player, you'll see that their playing looks effortless. And to them, it really is. They're relaxed, and no single part of their body is doing anything particularly physically spectacular. So relaxation is one way to get to this point.
The old adage is to play slow a bunch, and you'll help your ability to play fast. And while I believe that to be true, I also believe that you can't learn to play fast without pushing it. The key for me was to get into sessions that were playing beyond my comfort level, but not so far beyond my ability that I couldn't even try. Being pushed (or pulled) that hard can be really exhilarating. Keep telling yourself to relax, and try to go with the flow. The more you do it, the more comfortable you get!
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I record myself. I try not to listen back to it until a day or so later. (Easier said than done in most cases.) I do much better all around when I don't worry about the tempo and focus on really playing the tune. Often times, if it sounds ok and relaxed, I find I'm actually playing a fairly descent clip.
The point for me here is: I have to really know the tune first, otherwise no tempo will matter. And it's difficult, but I try not to worry about tempo; make music. Speed (hopefully) will come with experience and practice.
I'd still like to be able to play as fast and as my teacher, though
I'm glad you revisited this question, zippydw. I have only been playing flute for two years and share similar frustrations over speed. And, thanks Will for your advice!! Great stuff!!
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
"economise motion," that's a great one. i believe that was the profession of "Dad Gilbreth," in the famous "Cheaper by the Dozen," memoir about a family of twelve children whose father created the science of minimising motion....
here's another one it took me ages to be able to even start to get a handle on: during my earlier box years when i thought i would never be able to play to speed, an older irish lady set dancer told me benevolently, "don't play all the notes, take some of the notes out." even the best, hyper-fast wizards do this. perhaps that should be, ESPECIALLY the hyper-fasdt players are doing this. they drop most of the ornamentation and cut their settings down to the bare bones as the speed increases. don't know if they practice the bare settings ahead of time, or do it all for so long they can simplify on the fly, but everybody does it and with box you kind of have to. especially when you're playing in keys which on your box tuning make for constant back-and-forth direction switches rather than longer phrases in one direction, you have to learn where you can take notes or superfluous fillips out of the setting without damaging the essential structure of the tune. it was years before i could even start to do this when driving in the fast lane.....it helps, bigtime.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
listening to a bunch of different recordings of the same tune can be an eye-opener. i remember feeling really foolish when i listened to joe burke's "broken pledge," which i was finding extremely hard to play fast on b/c box. you'd think d-minor would be EASY on b/c because the notes in the d-minor triad are all on the pull. but the d-minorish modal key has tons of directional changes that are very taxing and awkward at high speeds.
joe burke, who i think of along with somebody like joe derrane as one who probly could go hyper-fast much of the time without having to edit the setting, WAS editing the setting of "broken pledge" in subtle ways to minimize directional changes when playing at a clip, and the tune still sounded quite complex. it's not only about taking notes out, it's about substituting notes which work just as well but go in one direction.....the younger paddy o'brien is someone who does very creative things with settings, partly because he is creative, but partly, i suspect, to make the setting more "b/c box friendly."
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Al, that's a oft said approach--silencing the brain and just letting your fingers get on with the playing.
I can see the point in that--quieting the inner critical voice. But beyond that, it doesn't feel quite right to me. For me, it's more like trusting my imagination and letting my bow hand and fingers loose to follow whatever my imagination comes up with--some version of the tune that spills out, like retelling a familiar story, but not reciting it from memory.
So my brain is the most active, responsive part, and my fingers are simply doing what little is needed to create the sounds.
That's fiddle, or flute. I don't play box so have no idea how much free rein your fingers get on that beast.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
i keep thinking of more things to throw in here because it's been a steep curve for me on b/c box to get up to speed. concertina was like a bird being let out of a cage for me after box. why? less physically taxing, and also more notes recur in BOTH directions on concertina, so you can arrange phrases so they are one-directional when in the fast lane.
but here's another thing about going fast on box: playing in optimal keys for your instrument. yes, theoretically the wizards can play in any key to speed, but they don't tend to record or do concerts that way.---don't know which tuning you play, but there is a reason why so many b/c box records have lots of tunes in a minor, eminor and other optimal b/c keys. there is crafty optimizing going on there with key choices.
sure, somebody like billy mccomiskey can play fast in any key and does in seshes and ceilis. but his records and concerts have lots of b/c-optimal key choices. same with john wiliams---he rearranged "jug of punch" (another d-minorish reel that is really hard to play super-fast on b/c) to eminor-ish on his eponymously-titled first record, and that tune is a snap to play fast on b/c in e-minor-ish.....
the c#/d-ers, i assure you, do the same, other way around. one of my favorite c#/d-ers declined to play a pretty standard tune from his regional repertoire in a sesh i was at because it didn't work well on his box tuning. i'm sure this person COULD play the tune in this key, but even for someone that good, it would be a pain to play it fast. they might play an awkward key sloppy-fast informally, but they won't record it or perform it in concert or publically in the awkward key. so don't forget, you have the right to be crafty as well...
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
"Playing at speed is all about relaxing and economy of motion" Will
That sums it up.
But how???
Learn how to breathe. It's almost never mentioned in relation to Irish Music. I had to literally learn how to breathe deeply and slowly whilst playing. It is the absolute keystone to relaxation. Look up diaphragmatic breathing on google. It takes some time to master but it is essential in relaxing when playing.
I would almost bet you hold your breath when playing!! I used to, i didn't realise it till I started getting dizzy in sessions years ago. Learning to breathe correctly has been the single most important thing I've learned to improve my playing in the last 5 years
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I wonder if fluters or whistlers ever have trouble with their breathing while playing?
Seriously though, for those of us that don't play those two instruments, if you catch yourself holding your breath while you're playing that's a sure sign you're not relaxed.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
ceemonster, I started noticing that 'mending the tune' practice, and am using it myself as I slowly learn to play B/C box. There are some phrases that are just nasty because of the mechanics, and often a tiny little change can make them go much easier. I try to keep them to a minimum, however, as I really want to do things right. But they have helped me roll some tunes out quicker into my public repetoire, and it is playing the tunes in the pub where you really learn the tune. You raise a good solid 'box-centered' suggestion for zippydw, since that is the instrument he wants to play faster on.
And Will, I agree with your points. My emphasis on 'taking the brain out of the loop' is a very personal way of looking at it, which reveals my own weaknesses as much as anything. I am one of those people who tends to overthink things, and because of that, can often be clumsy in physical tasks, athletics, playing, because I am pausing to think too much. Maybe what I really mean is to take the concious brain out of the loop, and keep the instinctive part engaged, which is much closer to what you are describing.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
"Learn how to breathe. It's almost never mentioned in relation to Irish Music." Let me think now ... ... I play whistle & flute, I play Irish music; & you expect me to almost never have mentioned breathing?!!** Am I invisible. I see a reflection in mirrors. They fog up when I breath on them. !*? Check my pulse. Yeah, I'm tickin'
Slow down, random ... deep breathes.
Ahhh that's better.
breathing is essential for everything ~ phrasing, relaxing, expressing, rhythm, lilting.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Great point, Enda. Deep, easy breathing spreads relaxation to every muscle and synapse.
I invited a fiddle student of mine on stage recently--her first time playing this music in public, in front of 300-plus people. Just as we walked on stage, I whispered to her, "Breathe!" Later, she said that helped a lot.
I've always enjoyed the way Paddy Canny draws in big gulps of air in time to his phrasing while he plays. Makes me smile just thinking of it.
It also helps to sit or stand so that you feel grounded, balanced. Find that place in your gut (your diaphragm) that tightens when you cough and consciously let it go completely slack. Then breathe deep and feel the same spot become your center of gravity. Play from there (not your head).
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
[So cee, if a tune is awkward on your instrument, you simply decline to play it?] no, though, if the tune is really awkward and the playing at a sesh or whatever is not merely to speed but hyper-fast, i might well sit that one out, though that would be fewer occasions since i started to get the hang of setting-rearrangement. but as i said, i've heard people who have declined tunes in awkward keys for their boxes.
here is another speed-maximization tip i heard, from john williams. i can't remember whether i read it in an interview or he was saying it on that tutorial tape of his, which i watched part of one time. namely, when a note requiring a direcvtional switch is coming, you must learn to start the turnaround of the bellows a split of a hair of a fraction of a second before you're due to play that note. i'm pretty sure he was saying he used to watch his father or some relative doing that....
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
yeah, the "sounding easy and smooth part" too, i was thinking in terms of, maximizing your speed by getting your fingers there faster. on bisonoric boxes, it is sequential notes which fall in different directions that slow down your playing. dreadful....or, dreadfully hard for me. motor skills are the part of this that is not my strong point....
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Relaxing... my nemesis.
Anyway, Jeeves- I was in the process of downsizing and getting ready to order...Herself found other places for the money and one of the daughter's significant other just asked permission to make an honest woman out of her.......
The Conn III looks like it is staying the instrument of choice until sometime next year!
I think I recognize alot of the advice...I just have to do it. A great challenge.
Cee- I see JW regularly.... you want to see fast.... When he wants to show up an uppity fiddler (I am sure none of our fiddler friends here fall into that group!) He leaves them in his dust and complains how slowly he was playing
Just kidding actually. I have seen him leave those types (and me a couple of times) in the dust. But he is a big proponent of playing slowly and with sensitivity. Let the Music do the work.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
i love jw's playing. i will say, i love his playing best when he is playing his more clare-ish, clean, ornamentally plain style, be it fast or slow. he can lay on the post-modern ornamentation and chords like nobody's business, but i like his clean style best, fast or slow. that first cd of his with micho russell and martin hayes is a big fave for me....
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I would suggest that box players are just as conscious of breathing as flute and whistle players, although it is not the person breathing, it is the bellows!
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Let me think now ... ... I play whistle & flute, I play Irish music; & you expect me to almost never have mentioned breathing?!!** Am I invisible. I see a reflection in mirrors. They fog up when I breath on them. !*? Check my pulse. Yeah, I'm tickin'
I would appear to be rather naive to have assumed that wind instrument players would automatically understand that I excluded them from the breathing comments for the most obvious of reasons.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I feel like I need a glossary sometimes:
"varsity" "freshman" "high school" "pitcher" "the minors" "fastball" "catcher" "mound".
Something appears to be being talked about here of which I know nothing. I don't know what any of those words/phrases mean. Ah well ...
Never mind. I've thought about this, and I've realised that I don't think about it. By which I mean, I've never thought of there being different 'classes' or 'leagues' of sessions. I just go along and, if I know the tunes, I play. If I don't, or they're too fast for me, I don't play. I think it's better this way.
It's probably a bit like not knowing the words that people from different cultures use. (Where, for analogy, different cultures = different sessions.) No point in worrying about it. Just get used to it.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I remember going through the learn to breath thing. It was really awkward at first, having to concentrate on breathing slowly and evenly. But as with anything, it becomes easier and easier until you can do it subconciosly.
Sitting up straight helps with breathing, so you are not crunching your diaphram. I love the look of the old box players - bolt upright, shoulders back, elbows tucked in, chin down. Big broad grins.
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
That's a line I learned working for Mayor Daley's people years ago (I was part of the continegent that gets things done-translate I wouldn't sell tables/tickets/golf outing things which is why I am back in private sector!)
My teacher is always telling me its ok to breathe! I was making grunting sounds when I pushed and pulled on the bellows.
Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
"Session Speed". The road to getting there.
Now that I have been playing a few years and fully appreciative of the wise counsel recieved from my Teacher and my freinds here to play and learn slowly. (The last month has been spent with Martin Hayes recordings. Amazing collection of work.) I am looking at the next hill to climb- playing with the 'big boys'.
I Have been in a number of intermediate sessions, 'old man's' sessions, and private sessions where the pace was comfortable and held my own as it were.
But the really lightning fast sessions. Embarrassing. I know alot of the tunes, but the hands just start doing what we used to call 'blobbida-blobbida'.
I suppose it is like (American baseball reference) the when you moved from the medium batting cage to the 'fast pitch' batting cage as a kid. Reaction is "Whoooa!". But you had to learn the timing, sharpen the techniques that sort of thing to 'get on the pitch'. You have to get over the anxiety of working at speed.
To the more experienced players...when you (probably ignoring the wise counsel of your teachers and players who felt themselves to be gurus to play slow and speed will come in time) decided to jump in learn to learn the skills to play at Session Speed, how did you do it?
One book I read just said to alternate in with the slow practices times periods when you play faster than you think you can and ignore the mistakes...or as the book said, give yourself the freedom to make mistakes. I've tried it playing along with lightning players' CD's and the results would be humorous if they weren't so embarrassing.
Thoughts and advice would be most appreciated.
# Posted on August 27th 2010 by zippydw
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Playing at speed is all about relaxing and economy of motion. Remember Steve Martin's old routine about "let's get small"? That's important. You want to minimize the size of the movements needed to get the music out.
The relaxation bit can be tricky--most folks have a counterproductive tendency to tighten up when pushing the pace. It helped me to focus less on speed or precision and aim instead to sound as effortless as possible. Striving to keep up leads to sounding frantic. Striving to play without mistakes leads to sounding stilted. So instead, simply aim to sound relaxed, at any pace.
You'll probably get advice to work with a metronome. FInd a tempo that's within your comfort zone, and then notch it up 2 or 4 bpm until you find your ceiling.
You can do the same thing with another player (your teacher?). Play a tune at a comfortable pace. Then have the other player bump the pace up a little. Focus less on the tempo change and more on how the new pace affects the phrasing. Often you'll hear more flow and continuity at a slightly faster pace. Feel that. Let it come out in your playing. For me, this is easier to do when playing with another human being than a metronome.
Hope this helps.
# Posted on August 27th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
How could it not? Great stuff there Will.
# Posted on August 27th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Sorry zippy, I should post something productive but I think Will has it all covered. Those methods are much better than what I used, the old 'get in and hang on for dear life'.
# Posted on August 27th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
That was my approach too, SWFL. But it might be easier to do that for a fiddle player than a box player. Personally, if I knew someone who was several years into playing a box, I would invite them to a session (if I had one) because I like the sound of the box so much. Maybe there are others like that where you live, zippydw. As others have said many times before here, you might not be able to play at the speed they all play in the beginning but chances are, they will play at your speed on the tunes you play. That will be fun. And as time goes by, you will get more comfortable playing and, hopefully (for you) be able to play the tunes they play at the speed they play them.
# Posted on August 27th 2010 by John Culhane
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I still feel like when I get in I am hanging on for dear life...You know what that dog who regularly chased the milk truck felt like when he finally caught it (" O S**t... now what do I do with it?!?)
It still feels like the first time I had someone throw a 100mph fast ball in my direction.
# Posted on August 27th 2010 by zippydw
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I made the varsity baseball team in my freshman year in high school. Talk about being in over your head. (They needed a lefty pitcher.) One of the coaches had pitched in the minors. He pitched batting practice for us every day. After a couple of weeks, he started throwing harder. The first time he blew a 96 mph (we had a radar gun) fastball by me, I was still finishing my swing as the catcher was tossing the ball back to the mound.
I fouled off a lot of fastballs right down the pike at first. But the more I did it, the easier it got, and I was able to relax in the batter's box (inched back as far as I could go without whomping the catching in the head). My first line drive into right field (batting lefty) felt really good.
Batting in the regular season was a cake walk after that. There wasn't a pitcher in the league who threw over 90.
As tacoman says, get out there and do it. Get the session to play some tunes at your pace. Keep going back.
Also, ask your teacher to troubleshoot your playing for tips on how to economize motion, both fingers and bellows. And to point out any tension so you can release it.
# Posted on August 27th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Hi Zip
I agree completely with all the advice from Will and others about relaxation. Minimizing the movements, especially. I've been at the box for a few years now but I well remember the first time I played a set of reels in a danceband at full tilt. Afterwards I felt I'd just spent two rounds in the wrestling wring with Mick McManus (there, that's dated me and placed me geographically)...
I'm happy to report that it no longer feels like that at all, in fact playing fast is quite OK (on tunes that suit the box mind you, LOL). The difference is that I'm no longer fighting the instrument. Quite how this transition occurred I'm not sure exactly.
I think focusing on not playing loudly is a help - after all boxes are always too loud, and you can play discreetly and still add to the music by giving judicious oomph to the right notes. That's one thing.
Another is drilling the tunes into your brain during practice by constant, unrelenting repetition. For me this has been more of an issue with the box than with any other instrument I am halfway competent on. Much, much more of an issue. Maybe because on a push-pull system the left arm movements have to be perfectly and totally unconsciously integrated with the right hand, so that you never think about them, not even for a nanosecond, and never fight the instrument that way.
Derrane made a point of telling people in a class I attended that you need to practise at least an hour a day, and two hours a day if you really want to get anywhere. And that you should practise using the same fingering every time. Worked for him...
A light and easy-playing box is a help too - I didn't ask to try your Connemara III at ED but owning a similarly configured Serenellini I suspect it might not be such a piece of cake. I have gone back to 2-voice boxes, much easier on the old body. A friend of mine has a Cairdin mini (well played in) that is unbelievably easy to play. Really it makes warp speed a doddle.
Anyway keep at it. In another two years your question might well be totally redundant.
# Posted on August 27th 2010 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
The relaxation game is a difficult one. Our natural reaction to trying to do something faster is to do it *harder*. If you tense up, and try to push yourself, it only helps you get faster up to a point, and then it becomes a huge hinderance. (And you might hurt yourself in the process). If you watch any great player, you'll see that their playing looks effortless. And to them, it really is. They're relaxed, and no single part of their body is doing anything particularly physically spectacular. So relaxation is one way to get to this point.
The old adage is to play slow a bunch, and you'll help your ability to play fast. And while I believe that to be true, I also believe that you can't learn to play fast without pushing it. The key for me was to get into sessions that were playing beyond my comfort level, but not so far beyond my ability that I couldn't even try. Being pushed (or pulled) that hard can be really exhilarating. Keep telling yourself to relax, and try to go with the flow. The more you do it, the more comfortable you get!
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I record myself. I try not to listen back to it until a day or so later. (Easier said than done in most cases.) I do much better all around when I don't worry about the tempo and focus on really playing the tune. Often times, if it sounds ok and relaxed, I find I'm actually playing a fairly descent clip.
The point for me here is: I have to really know the tune first, otherwise no tempo will matter. And it's difficult, but I try not to worry about tempo; make music. Speed (hopefully) will come with experience and practice.
I'd still like to be able to play as fast and as my teacher, though
I'm glad you revisited this question, zippydw. I have only been playing flute for two years and share similar frustrations over speed. And, thanks Will for your advice!! Great stuff!!
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by cfmgeek
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
To play fast, you must learn to take your brain out of the loop, and trust your fingers...
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
"economise motion," that's a great one. i believe that was the profession of "Dad Gilbreth," in the famous "Cheaper by the Dozen," memoir about a family of twelve children whose father created the science of minimising motion....
here's another one it took me ages to be able to even start to get a handle on: during my earlier box years when i thought i would never be able to play to speed, an older irish lady set dancer told me benevolently, "don't play all the notes, take some of the notes out." even the best, hyper-fast wizards do this. perhaps that should be, ESPECIALLY the hyper-fasdt players are doing this. they drop most of the ornamentation and cut their settings down to the bare bones as the speed increases. don't know if they practice the bare settings ahead of time, or do it all for so long they can simplify on the fly, but everybody does it and with box you kind of have to. especially when you're playing in keys which on your box tuning make for constant back-and-forth direction switches rather than longer phrases in one direction, you have to learn where you can take notes or superfluous fillips out of the setting without damaging the essential structure of the tune. it was years before i could even start to do this when driving in the fast lane.....it helps, bigtime.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ceemonster
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
listening to a bunch of different recordings of the same tune can be an eye-opener. i remember feeling really foolish when i listened to joe burke's "broken pledge," which i was finding extremely hard to play fast on b/c box. you'd think d-minor would be EASY on b/c because the notes in the d-minor triad are all on the pull. but the d-minorish modal key has tons of directional changes that are very taxing and awkward at high speeds.
joe burke, who i think of along with somebody like joe derrane as one who probly could go hyper-fast much of the time without having to edit the setting, WAS editing the setting of "broken pledge" in subtle ways to minimize directional changes when playing at a clip, and the tune still sounded quite complex. it's not only about taking notes out, it's about substituting notes which work just as well but go in one direction.....the younger paddy o'brien is someone who does very creative things with settings, partly because he is creative, but partly, i suspect, to make the setting more "b/c box friendly."
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ceemonster
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Al, that's a oft said approach--silencing the brain and just letting your fingers get on with the playing.
I can see the point in that--quieting the inner critical voice. But beyond that, it doesn't feel quite right to me. For me, it's more like trusting my imagination and letting my bow hand and fingers loose to follow whatever my imagination comes up with--some version of the tune that spills out, like retelling a familiar story, but not reciting it from memory.
So my brain is the most active, responsive part, and my fingers are simply doing what little is needed to create the sounds.
That's fiddle, or flute. I don't play box so have no idea how much free rein your fingers get on that beast.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
see what i mean, jelly bean?
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ceemonster
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
i keep thinking of more things to throw in here because it's been a steep curve for me on b/c box to get up to speed. concertina was like a bird being let out of a cage for me after box. why? less physically taxing, and also more notes recur in BOTH directions on concertina, so you can arrange phrases so they are one-directional when in the fast lane.
but here's another thing about going fast on box: playing in optimal keys for your instrument. yes, theoretically the wizards can play in any key to speed, but they don't tend to record or do concerts that way.---don't know which tuning you play, but there is a reason why so many b/c box records have lots of tunes in a minor, eminor and other optimal b/c keys. there is crafty optimizing going on there with key choices.
sure, somebody like billy mccomiskey can play fast in any key and does in seshes and ceilis. but his records and concerts have lots of b/c-optimal key choices. same with john wiliams---he rearranged "jug of punch" (another d-minorish reel that is really hard to play super-fast on b/c) to eminor-ish on his eponymously-titled first record, and that tune is a snap to play fast on b/c in e-minor-ish.....
the c#/d-ers, i assure you, do the same, other way around. one of my favorite c#/d-ers declined to play a pretty standard tune from his regional repertoire in a sesh i was at because it didn't work well on his box tuning. i'm sure this person COULD play the tune in this key, but even for someone that good, it would be a pain to play it fast. they might play an awkward key sloppy-fast informally, but they won't record it or perform it in concert or publically in the awkward key. so don't forget, you have the right to be crafty as well...
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ceemonster
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
So cee, if a tune is awkward on your instrument, you simply decline to play it? Hmmm. It's a wonder anyone plays anything at all on the pipes then!
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
"Playing at speed is all about relaxing and economy of motion" Will
That sums it up.
But how???
Learn how to breathe. It's almost never mentioned in relation to Irish Music. I had to literally learn how to breathe deeply and slowly whilst playing. It is the absolute keystone to relaxation. Look up diaphragmatic breathing on google. It takes some time to master but it is essential in relaxing when playing.
I would almost bet you hold your breath when playing!! I used to, i didn't realise it till I started getting dizzy in sessions years ago. Learning to breathe correctly has been the single most important thing I've learned to improve my playing in the last 5 years
Enda
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Enda Scahill
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I wonder if fluters or whistlers ever have trouble with their breathing while playing?
Seriously though, for those of us that don't play those two instruments, if you catch yourself holding your breath while you're playing that's a sure sign you're not relaxed.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
ceemonster, I started noticing that 'mending the tune' practice, and am using it myself as I slowly learn to play B/C box. There are some phrases that are just nasty because of the mechanics, and often a tiny little change can make them go much easier. I try to keep them to a minimum, however, as I really want to do things right. But they have helped me roll some tunes out quicker into my public repetoire, and it is playing the tunes in the pub where you really learn the tune. You raise a good solid 'box-centered' suggestion for zippydw, since that is the instrument he wants to play faster on.
And Will, I agree with your points. My emphasis on 'taking the brain out of the loop' is a very personal way of looking at it, which reveals my own weaknesses as much as anything. I am one of those people who tends to overthink things, and because of that, can often be clumsy in physical tasks, athletics, playing, because I am pausing to think too much. Maybe what I really mean is to take the concious brain out of the loop, and keep the instinctive part engaged, which is much closer to what you are describing.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
"Learn how to breathe. It's almost never mentioned in relation to Irish Music." Let me think now ... ... I play whistle & flute, I play Irish music; & you expect me to almost never have mentioned breathing?!!** Am I invisible. I see a reflection in mirrors. They fog up when I breath on them. !*? Check my pulse. Yeah, I'm tickin'
Slow down, random ... deep breathes.
Ahhh that's better.
breathing is essential for everything ~ phrasing, relaxing, expressing, rhythm, lilting.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Ben Steen
~
Enda, I get what you're saying & I do recognize the problem when musicians forget to breath. Your experience offers sound advice.
Cheers!
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Great point, Enda. Deep, easy breathing spreads relaxation to every muscle and synapse.
I invited a fiddle student of mine on stage recently--her first time playing this music in public, in front of 300-plus people. Just as we walked on stage, I whispered to her, "Breathe!" Later, she said that helped a lot.
I've always enjoyed the way Paddy Canny draws in big gulps of air in time to his phrasing while he plays. Makes me smile just thinking of it.
It also helps to sit or stand so that you feel grounded, balanced. Find that place in your gut (your diaphragm) that tightens when you cough and consciously let it go completely slack. Then breathe deep and feel the same spot become your center of gravity. Play from there (not your head).
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
[So cee, if a tune is awkward on your instrument, you simply decline to play it?] no, though, if the tune is really awkward and the playing at a sesh or whatever is not merely to speed but hyper-fast, i might well sit that one out, though that would be fewer occasions since i started to get the hang of setting-rearrangement. but as i said, i've heard people who have declined tunes in awkward keys for their boxes.
here is another speed-maximization tip i heard, from john williams. i can't remember whether i read it in an interview or he was saying it on that tutorial tape of his, which i watched part of one time. namely, when a note requiring a direcvtional switch is coming, you must learn to start the turnaround of the bellows a split of a hair of a fraction of a second before you're due to play that note. i'm pretty sure he was saying he used to watch his father or some relative doing that....
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ceemonster
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
and no, i didn't only watch part of the tape because it wasn't good. it was because at the time, i was so lame i couldn't take it in.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ceemonster
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Sorry cee, I was just making a joke about wrestling the octopus.
And good point about anticipation. You have to know what's coming next and anticipate it so it sounds easy and smooth, instead of sudden and rushed.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
yeah, the "sounding easy and smooth part" too, i was thinking in terms of, maximizing your speed by getting your fingers there faster. on bisonoric boxes, it is sequential notes which fall in different directions that slow down your playing. dreadful....or, dreadfully hard for me. motor skills are the part of this that is not my strong point....
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ceemonster
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Relaxing... my nemesis.
Anyway, Jeeves- I was in the process of downsizing and getting ready to order...Herself found other places for the money and one of the daughter's significant other just asked permission to make an honest woman out of her.......
The Conn III looks like it is staying the instrument of choice until sometime next year!
I think I recognize alot of the advice...I just have to do it. A great challenge.
Cee- I see JW regularly.... you want to see fast.... When he wants to show up an uppity fiddler (I am sure none of our fiddler friends here fall into that group!) He leaves them in his dust and complains how slowly he was playing
Just kidding actually. I have seen him leave those types (and me a couple of times) in the dust. But he is a big proponent of playing slowly and with sensitivity. Let the Music do the work.
Anyway very helpful advice
Thanks very much for all the kind advice
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by zippydw
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
i love jw's playing. i will say, i love his playing best when he is playing his more clare-ish, clean, ornamentally plain style, be it fast or slow. he can lay on the post-modern ornamentation and chords like nobody's business, but i like his clean style best, fast or slow. that first cd of his with micho russell and martin hayes is a big fave for me....
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ceemonster
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I would suggest that box players are just as conscious of breathing as flute and whistle players, although it is not the person breathing, it is the bellows!
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Al - while the box does need to breathe, generally I find my box playing is improved if I breathe as well.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
Let me think now ... ... I play whistle & flute, I play Irish music; & you expect me to almost never have mentioned breathing?!!** Am I invisible. I see a reflection in mirrors. They fog up when I breath on them. !*? Check my pulse. Yeah, I'm tickin'
I would appear to be rather naive to have assumed that wind instrument players would automatically understand that I excluded them from the breathing comments for the most obvious of reasons.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Enda Scahill
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
LOL Enda, I've had to remind whistle students to breathe and not hold their breath. !?!?!?!?!
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I feel like I need a glossary sometimes:
"varsity" "freshman" "high school" "pitcher" "the minors" "fastball" "catcher" "mound".
Something appears to be being talked about here of which I know nothing. I don't know what any of those words/phrases mean. Ah well ...
Never mind. I've thought about this, and I've realised that I don't think about it. By which I mean, I've never thought of there being different 'classes' or 'leagues' of sessions. I just go along and, if I know the tunes, I play. If I don't, or they're too fast for me, I don't play. I think it's better this way.
It's probably a bit like not knowing the words that people from different cultures use. (Where, for analogy, different cultures = different sessions.) No point in worrying about it. Just get used to it.
# Posted on August 28th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I remember going through the learn to breath thing. It was really awkward at first, having to concentrate on breathing slowly and evenly. But as with anything, it becomes easier and easier until you can do it subconciosly.
Sitting up straight helps with breathing, so you are not crunching your diaphram. I love the look of the old box players - bolt upright, shoulders back, elbows tucked in, chin down. Big broad grins.
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by ...
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
I am teased by my wife's choir freinds that when I am playing the church organ they never see me breathe.
I tell themthat I breather very slowly and deeply so it just looks like I am not breathing.
I really don't look good in blue.....
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by zippydw
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
No zippy, it's never let them see you sweat, it's OK if they see you breathe.
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Revisiting a question I asked 2 years ago. More appropriate now.
That's a line I learned working for Mayor Daley's people years ago (I was part of the continegent that gets things done-translate I wouldn't sell tables/tickets/golf outing things which is why I am back in private sector!)
My teacher is always telling me its ok to breathe! I was making grunting sounds when I pushed and pulled on the bellows.
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by zippydw