I've a question about the legitimacy of transposing some tunes and expecting them to fit in a session with strangers...
For example Miss Welsh is a reel tradionally in F Major according to the fiddler's companion. Bummer on the keyless flute. Now I can:
1. Play it in F on the Boehm Flute. Don't like to have to take it to every session and leave it out just for the odd tune that might come up.
2. Play it in D on the wooden flute. Or G. Both are ok, though D really sits best.
3. As option 2, but pull out the wooden F flute. Solves the problem of the key, but at the cost of having another instrument out on the table at sessions and annoying the other flute players who don't have one with them.
4. I could resort to my keyed wooden flute, but the tune is still a bit awkward on that and it is not the flute I normally take to sessions anyway.
Since no one I know here plays the tune anyway, my options are pretty much open. What would you do. Naturally, I've learnt the tune for all of the above options (F on Boehm, D and G on D flute.) but in D on a D flute sounds best to me. (or F on the F flute.). The bell note of the flute fits in well with the tune.
Who, of you, would play along with me in which key?
(I've just posted the tune I'm using as an example - I'd like to add some comments, but I can't seem to get into the comments section for the tune. Don't jump down my throat - I will add the comments as soon as I can.)
Well sure if no one else you know plays the tune, you can do what you want to please yourself can't you? I thought the idea of a session was generally speaking to play with other people, so maybe not a great choice of tune for that purpose?
No one around here... Sometimes I go elsewhere though, where Scottish tunes are not unknown and then it would interest me to know whether and in what key the tune gets played... Specifically, how often the tunes get moved into the flute friendly keys.
Popcorn Behaviour, for example, I have only heard in the flute unfriendly key, despite a flute friendly key not being too far away.
I've just done a quick search here of everything in F Major, and the list comprises only 14 tunes. That might tell you something about the popularity of that key. Personally, I would not take the word of Fiddler's Companion to mean that it should be played in that key, and transpose it into whatever I felt best suited it -- and me.
In my experience, people play tunes in a variety of keys. If someone comes along and plays it in a different key to the one other players are used to, the rest may fumble for a moment and comment that it's a different key. But as a backer, you get used to switching the keys at times - many of the pipes can't do certain keys. I love backing just a flute, as the sound is so totally different to fiddles and pipes, and sometimes that's because the key is different too. I once did Neil Gow's Lament for this second wife with a flute in a different key to the one we ususally play it and it was lovely.
Sure, it's nice when people are playing tunes everyone knows and can join in with, but a session where everyone knows every single tune wouldn't be fun for long. New tunes, new keys, new instruments...all good in sessions, imo. I can understand people getting narked if you were playing set after set in keys most others couldn't play of course, but what you can get away with is more a question of judging the session and people in it.
If they're open to new tunes and keys, it'll be fine. If it's a beginners session, or trying to be specifically inclusive by keeping set tune lists, maybe not so.
@Gam - Huh? There are 138 tunes on the database in F major when I search.
It is a lovely key for tunes as long as you have an instrument that fits it. That being said I would imagine that many of these tunes would also get played in D and G for convenience in the same way as many tunes that are in A get played in G for convenience (in Ireland at any rate).
Yes, there's quite a few scottish fiddle tun es that were written in F but also some Irish ones. Tommy Peoples' Black Pat's springs to mind. And yeah, unfortunately, it get's transposed to G most of the time.
There's no rules, of course, except the house rules.
However, all the really good flute players I know (and that's a fair few) have no problem at all playing tunes in F on their D flutes.
I would only play it in F. I think there are way too many many tunes in G or D that if you started playing it in one of those keys, I would be very unlikely to say to myself, "I need to learn that one" but if anybody played any tune in F (which almost never happens here) I would be 100% more likely to learn it as quickly as possible. Any flute player should either have an F flute, be able to do some sort of cross fingering, have a keyed flute, or some other method of playing in those keys, because F, G minor, Bb, and Dm are all very beautiful keys. I am a fiddle player if you're wondering.
Depends on the session. There's a session around here that has a bunch of fiddlers who like Scottish and Cape Breton tunes, where you'll hear long sets of F tunes, and there's other sessions where you have four or six flute players who would find that an excellent excuse for a cigarette.
My way to go is to try to play tunes that I want to play and that I think others will like, in sets that people will enjoy whether they're playing them or not. Can't always get there, of course, but that's the ideal.
"...it feels like a tune in F to me. So play it in F." Or don't.
I live in Ireland and play in sessions. Sometimes I play tunes in F and in C. Sometimes on the fiddle but also on the flute and concertina. I often find myself playing them on my own, or with a musician used to playing in the odd keys. If I wanted to play these tunes with most other people I'd play the tunes in D or G. I don't understand where the problem lies.
And if I'm bored with a tune ("I get very bored of G and D") it's generally because I don't play it well enough to make it interesting. I.e., I'm bored with myself. I doubt Matt Molloy is ever "bored of G and D."
I aslo doubt if he was playing for 2 or 3 hours, he wouldn't consider throwing in a few tunes on other keys here and there as well though.
It's not a case of being "bored with a tune" (although that can happen if you play it week in week out for months - hence why tunes come in and go out of fashion in sessions). It's about finding a session not so interesting if there isn't the ocassional odd, different, interesting tune or key thrown in.
Hence if a tune is in F, or E or Bflat, or you have a differently tuned instrument, there is nothing at all wrong with playing the tune that way. If absolutely everything must be transposed into G, D, Am or Em, that's going to be a less interesting musical evening, imho.
My repertoire consists of a lot of Gm, F, C and Dm tunes because I'm heavily influenced by East Galway music. I would play this stuff on the tenor banjo.
However, I also play the simple-system flute and have a rake of solid G and D flute favourites. I'm not a fan of keyed flutes (I find them awkward to play simply because of the presence of keys, regardless of whether or not I use them). I tinker with version of tunes in Gm. For example, I'll throw in the important Fnaturals and Bflat notes where I can (half-holing) but, sometimes, I'll play them sharp and natural respectively if the tune can still flow that way (e.g. The Bunch of Keys). I did attempt to learn Martin Rochford's Reel in F on a simple-system flute some months ago and almost nailed it but didn't give it quite enough time. Playing in simple fingering on a different key flute means that I can play with others but, essentially, I'm still fingering it as if it was in a more accessible key so I wouldn't bother with bringing "other key" instruments. I'd rather put in the effort and pain to learn it in a hard key on a standard instrument.
If I'm in a session, I do like to throw in tunes in these flat keys but I base my decision on the competence and repertoire of other musicians in the session. If I think that the flute players are able enough to play in these difficult keys, I'll definitely play those tunes. If not, I'll lay off them because I know I'll most likely be stuck launching into a tune on my own, and I don't like that.
That said, tunes in G and D don't get boring for me just because of their keys. If I get sick of a tune, changing the key definitely gives more it lifespan , but a G/D reel will stand well for me in that key if the melody is solid.
... and still the tune isn't actualy posted in the tunes database. Nobody else seems to have noticed that ... or is it just me that can't access it? (Not that I need to, as I know the tune already, assuming it's the one I think it is)
I posted the tune yesterday, but cannot access it and have not been able to add any comments either! Yes, it is the one in Kerr's. I actually got it from Mel Bay's Scottish flute tunes book where it is in a set with the Clydesdale lasses, to which all of the same comments apply.
To clear up a few points; I _can_ play it in F on my keyed D flute - I just find that the weak and strong tones of the flute don't match where I think the weak and strong tones of the tune should be. This is not a question of competence, but rather one of taste.
And I do like it in F on the F flute, but I would not always have my F flute with me or out on the table. There are already a D keyless flute, C whistle and Bellows smallpipes in A in front of me at my usual session. And I still need room for the beer. And I sometimes have a low A or G whistle out too for some songs. I really like the elegance of only having the flute with me, but it bothers me that that limits my choice of tunes.
I don't think that an unusual key (I don't mean that F is unusual per say, just that it's not the normal G/D) can make a tunes interesting. A tune is a tune. It's interest lies in the intervals not the notes' absolutes.
If you think you can make a tune more interesting by playing it in a different key you are deluded.
I learn a lot of tunes in C and F etc. But only because they are the keys they get played in. I always think a good test of whether a tune in an odd key is really any good or not is to try it in D or G. If you think that the tune sounds a bit boring in G or D, don't play it at all. F ain't gonna save it, no matter what you might think.
"A tune is a tune. It's interest lies in the intervals not the notes' absolutes".
Well, yes, but also IMHO, no...
The key and pitch, and indeed the way an instrument is tuned, I would have thought, will all affect how any particular tune sounds - even if the intervals are the same. Different keys will surely alter fingerings and ornaments etc., contributing to the way a tune is played, and sounds. Perhaps I'm stating the obvious, though maybe not?
Also, speaking with my backing hat on, tunes played in some keys always sound brighter to my ear than those in other keys. If I hear a tune which sounds like it's in a "bright" key, I'm pretty certain that it is being played in either F, C or even E.
Having lit the blue touch paper, I'll now stand back and wait for the fireworks to commence....
Of course different fingerings colour the way you play a tune. And can make it difficult if not impossible on certain instruments. And this is a consideration when choosing a key to play in. I like Black Pat's in F so I can roll the top note in the last part (an A in F, it's a B in G). But I'm more than happy to play it in G if there's keyless flutes about ... it's the same tune.
Some people deliberatly play tunes in hard keys to show off. Numpties.
On the flute, not all notes sound the same. e.g. The bell note (D on a keyless) is a lot stronger than the E. So a different key can change the feel of the tune on the flute. I presume the relationshiip of the important notes in the tune to the open strings on a fiddle/viola is similar? Notably, on my Boehm flute, there is very little difference in character between different keys - this is, of course, one of the things Theobald Boehm was aiming for when he designed the thing...
As a secondary issue, the available ornamentation is different on different notes, e.g. rolling a bottom D on a flute is not on. Or rolling a C#, though there are alternatives that can be used in these situations.
So back to the tune in question, I would like to play it in D on a D flute or in F on an F flute. By the sound of the comments, people would either get to know me and learn to play along in my preferred key or I would have to use the F flute amongst strangers..
Same/similar issues with a fiddle of course, open strings etc.
And yes, those conciderations colour your choice of key.
But the advice about trying a tune in G or D that you might end up playing in F is to test whether the tune is worth learning in the first place. To counter any distorted feeling you might have about a tune in F being orriginal and worthy just because it's an unfamiliar key.
So, in summary (which I also happen to agree with strongly) the tune's the tune, and it'll be a good tune or not, irrespective of key. However, some tunes (most? all?) are better in one key than another, because of where they fall on particular instruments. And they'll produce differents effects depending on the key they're played in, for the same reason.
I am, however, lost as to why you need to try it in "G or D" when, since the tune's the tune, you might as well just try it in the key you found it in.
Just to add, on another, very minor topic, there are two flute players near me that regularly roll their bottom Ds on their 8-key flutes. And I mean roll, not cran. They do that too.
"I don't think that an unusual key (I don't mean that F is unusual per say, just that it's not the normal G/D) can make a tunes interesting. A tune is a tune. It's interest lies in the intervals not the notes' absolutes"
If that was true, we wouldn't need different keys signatures at all. Do you think when Bach, Brahms etc were writing their Symphonies in C#minor or or in Ab they didn't given any real thought to the key as "it'll sound the same in any key" anyway?
Just sitting at a piano and jamming you can hear a real difference in the tone and atmosphere depending on which notes are played within a tune.
Of course trad is generally far more simple than classical, and without the written harmonies etc, so it's nowhere near as pronounced, but the differences are still there. One tune that frequently switches key depending on the player is Roslin Castle. Beautiful tune - beautiful in any key. But it really does have a totally different, more eerie feel in Gm (which I think was how it was written?) than in Am or Em.
"A tune is a tune. It's interest lies in the intervals not the notes' absolutes."
A lot of what I believe has already been debated against this comment. The absolute notes do have a different feeling in them. Forget about ornaments and drones etc for a minute (this is an important point nonetheless though).
If I play The Sally Gardens in G, I get nothing from it. No buzz, no matter how I variate it. It's just a tune that isn't interesting for me any more in that key. However, in the last few years, I've switched the key down to D and kept the same relative melody. Now, I love to play this tune. It sounds completely different. It is like an old melodeon tune now. Similarly, I play it in F too and, in this key, I like to play it after some moody Gm reel (Pigeon on the Gate perhaps). I play it slow and in my favoured East Galway/East Clare style, yet the notes are following an identical route to the common G standard (just down one tone).
So llig, just to let you know that, although you may not realise it, the notes themselves has some magic in them and feeling within tunes is not simply created by contours. On a midi file, maybe, but we're musicians, not computer nerds.
52Paddy, those other keys sound different ("better") to your ear because you're hearing them against the home tuning of your banjo or flute. If you played Sally Gardens in G on an F flute, you'd get the same buzz.
It's not the absolute pitch that creates tonal color, but the pitch and intervals relative to the natural pitch range of your instrument.
Paddy, I tend to agree with you that each key/mode has its own quality, but not everyone hears that way. I work with a guy who has absolute pitch, and he hears very distinct colors to each key. My pitch isn't as consistent as his, but I can unstring a fiddle, put new strings on, and get back to A=440 without using a tuner or other pitch reference.
When you're accustomed to hearing a dominant tone or tones, such as D on a typical Irish flute, then you tend to hear all other notes relative to that dominant tone. This "colors" the other notes and scales on that instrument. The same is true on fiddle, with D, A, and G being the dominant tones.
I'm no expert--this is just my tuppence based on my own experience of listening.
OK, I see your point. But, a very small point is that I get that same lease of life when I switch a G tune down to D. And both those keys comply with what my ears usually hear and what my instrument's pitch range is. With F and Bb and Gmin etc you make a good argument. But, in this case, it seems to cripple a little. I'm not trying to disagree here, by the way. I'm happily taking your opinion on board. I still stick by my previous post for the time being though.
Try playing your normal tunes in your normal fingering on an Eb flute. Your tunes with your G fingering sound the same, even though you are actually playing in Ab. This should answer the question of the absolutes being irrelavent.
As far as playing G tunes in D on your banjo goes, (apart from it being antisocial for flute players) all you are reall doing is giving it a bit of extra growl. I can appreciate what you're after, I play G tunes on the viola with D fingering and it's great fun, But I really can't see how you should be getting a "new lease of life" out of it. I reiterate, it's the same tune.
Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
I've a question about the legitimacy of transposing some tunes and expecting them to fit in a session with strangers...
For example Miss Welsh is a reel tradionally in F Major according to the fiddler's companion. Bummer on the keyless flute. Now I can:
1. Play it in F on the Boehm Flute. Don't like to have to take it to every session and leave it out just for the odd tune that might come up.
2. Play it in D on the wooden flute. Or G. Both are ok, though D really sits best.
3. As option 2, but pull out the wooden F flute. Solves the problem of the key, but at the cost of having another instrument out on the table at sessions and annoying the other flute players who don't have one with them.
4. I could resort to my keyed wooden flute, but the tune is still a bit awkward on that and it is not the flute I normally take to sessions anyway.
Since no one I know here plays the tune anyway, my options are pretty much open. What would you do. Naturally, I've learnt the tune for all of the above options (F on Boehm, D and G on D flute.) but in D on a D flute sounds best to me. (or F on the F flute.). The bell note of the flute fits in well with the tune.
Who, of you, would play along with me in which key?
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by Crackpot
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
(I've just posted the tune I'm using as an example - I'd like to add some comments, but I can't seem to get into the comments section for the tune. Don't jump down my throat - I will add the comments as soon as I can.)
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by Crackpot
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Well sure if no one else you know plays the tune, you can do what you want to please yourself can't you? I thought the idea of a session was generally speaking to play with other people, so maybe not a great choice of tune for that purpose?
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by the wounded hussar
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
No one around here... Sometimes I go elsewhere though, where Scottish tunes are not unknown and then it would interest me to know whether and in what key the tune gets played... Specifically, how often the tunes get moved into the flute friendly keys.
Popcorn Behaviour, for example, I have only heard in the flute unfriendly key, despite a flute friendly key not being too far away.
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by Crackpot
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
My experience only - in Scotland, tunes are not moved in to "flute friendly" keys.
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by Kenny
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
I've just done a quick search here of everything in F Major, and the list comprises only 14 tunes. That might tell you something about the popularity of that key. Personally, I would not take the word of Fiddler's Companion to mean that it should be played in that key, and transpose it into whatever I felt best suited it -- and me.
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by gam
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
In my experience, people play tunes in a variety of keys. If someone comes along and plays it in a different key to the one other players are used to, the rest may fumble for a moment and comment that it's a different key. But as a backer, you get used to switching the keys at times - many of the pipes can't do certain keys. I love backing just a flute, as the sound is so totally different to fiddles and pipes, and sometimes that's because the key is different too. I once did Neil Gow's Lament for this second wife with a flute in a different key to the one we ususally play it and it was lovely.
Sure, it's nice when people are playing tunes everyone knows and can join in with, but a session where everyone knows every single tune wouldn't be fun for long. New tunes, new keys, new instruments...all good in sessions, imo. I can understand people getting narked if you were playing set after set in keys most others couldn't play of course, but what you can get away with is more a question of judging the session and people in it.
If they're open to new tunes and keys, it'll be fine. If it's a beginners session, or trying to be specifically inclusive by keeping set tune lists, maybe not so.
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by Cathf
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
@Gam - Huh? There are 138 tunes on the database in F major when I search.
It is a lovely key for tunes as long as you have an instrument that fits it. That being said I would imagine that many of these tunes would also get played in D and G for convenience in the same way as many tunes that are in A get played in G for convenience (in Ireland at any rate).
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Yes, there's quite a few scottish fiddle tun es that were written in F but also some Irish ones. Tommy Peoples' Black Pat's springs to mind. And yeah, unfortunately, it get's transposed to G most of the time.
There's no rules, of course, except the house rules.
However, all the really good flute players I know (and that's a fair few) have no problem at all playing tunes in F on their D flutes.
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by ...
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
I would only play it in F. I think there are way too many many tunes in G or D that if you started playing it in one of those keys, I would be very unlikely to say to myself, "I need to learn that one" but if anybody played any tune in F (which almost never happens here) I would be 100% more likely to learn it as quickly as possible. Any flute player should either have an F flute, be able to do some sort of cross fingering, have a keyed flute, or some other method of playing in those keys, because F, G minor, Bb, and Dm are all very beautiful keys. I am a fiddle player if you're wondering.
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
I get very bored of G and D as well if the session is predomonantly Irish. I love to hear tunes in A, F, Gm etc.
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by Cathf
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Though that said, if the session is predominantly Scottish I can get bored of too many As in a row too…
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by Cathf
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Depends on the session. There's a session around here that has a bunch of fiddlers who like Scottish and Cape Breton tunes, where you'll hear long sets of F tunes, and there's other sessions where you have four or six flute players who would find that an excellent excuse for a cigarette.
My way to go is to try to play tunes that I want to play and that I think others will like, in sets that people will enjoy whether they're playing them or not. Can't always get there, of course, but that's the ideal.
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
@ No Cause For Alarm
I don't know what happened there then -- I thought it didn't seem many.
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by gam
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
The tune doesn't seem to have posted for some reason. I'm assuming that the one you mean is the one from Kerr's Merry Melodies Vol 4?
OK tune. Wouldn't be much my cup of tea, really. Easy enough on a keyed flute though, surely?
In any case, it feels like a tune in F to me. So play it in F.
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by ethical blend
Tunes in F
"...it feels like a tune in F to me. So play it in F." Or don't.
I live in Ireland and play in sessions. Sometimes I play tunes in F and in C. Sometimes on the fiddle but also on the flute and concertina. I often find myself playing them on my own, or with a musician used to playing in the odd keys. If I wanted to play these tunes with most other people I'd play the tunes in D or G. I don't understand where the problem lies.
And if I'm bored with a tune ("I get very bored of G and D") it's generally because I don't play it well enough to make it interesting. I.e., I'm bored with myself. I doubt Matt Molloy is ever "bored of G and D."
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by David Levine
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Play it in F.....why not? An F flute or whistle is handy to have anyway for when people play Broons Reel, Catharsis, Tamlin and the likes.
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by bogman
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
"I doubt Matt Molloy is ever "bored of G and D."
I aslo doubt if he was playing for 2 or 3 hours, he wouldn't consider throwing in a few tunes on other keys here and there as well though.
It's not a case of being "bored with a tune" (although that can happen if you play it week in week out for months - hence why tunes come in and go out of fashion in sessions). It's about finding a session not so interesting if there isn't the ocassional odd, different, interesting tune or key thrown in.
Hence if a tune is in F, or E or Bflat, or you have a differently tuned instrument, there is nothing at all wrong with playing the tune that way. If absolutely everything must be transposed into G, D, Am or Em, that's going to be a less interesting musical evening, imho.
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by Cathf
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
My repertoire consists of a lot of Gm, F, C and Dm tunes because I'm heavily influenced by East Galway music. I would play this stuff on the tenor banjo.
However, I also play the simple-system flute and have a rake of solid G and D flute favourites. I'm not a fan of keyed flutes (I find them awkward to play simply because of the presence of keys, regardless of whether or not I use them). I tinker with version of tunes in Gm. For example, I'll throw in the important Fnaturals and Bflat notes where I can (half-holing) but, sometimes, I'll play them sharp and natural respectively if the tune can still flow that way (e.g. The Bunch of Keys). I did attempt to learn Martin Rochford's Reel in F on a simple-system flute some months ago and almost nailed it but didn't give it quite enough time. Playing in simple fingering on a different key flute means that I can play with others but, essentially, I'm still fingering it as if it was in a more accessible key so I wouldn't bother with bringing "other key" instruments. I'd rather put in the effort and pain to learn it in a hard key on a standard instrument.
If I'm in a session, I do like to throw in tunes in these flat keys but I base my decision on the competence and repertoire of other musicians in the session. If I think that the flute players are able enough to play in these difficult keys, I'll definitely play those tunes. If not, I'll lay off them because I know I'll most likely be stuck launching into a tune on my own, and I don't like that.
That said, tunes in G and D don't get boring for me just because of their keys. If I get sick of a tune, changing the key definitely gives more it lifespan , but a G/D reel will stand well for me in that key if the melody is solid.
# Posted on August 24th 2010 by 52Paddy
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
... and still the tune isn't actualy posted in the tunes database. Nobody else seems to have noticed that ... or is it just me that can't access it? (Not that I need to, as I know the tune already, assuming it's the one I think it is)
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
I posted the tune yesterday, but cannot access it and have not been able to add any comments either! Yes, it is the one in Kerr's. I actually got it from Mel Bay's Scottish flute tunes book where it is in a set with the Clydesdale lasses, to which all of the same comments apply.
To clear up a few points; I _can_ play it in F on my keyed D flute - I just find that the weak and strong tones of the flute don't match where I think the weak and strong tones of the tune should be. This is not a question of competence, but rather one of taste.
And I do like it in F on the F flute, but I would not always have my F flute with me or out on the table. There are already a D keyless flute, C whistle and Bellows smallpipes in A in front of me at my usual session. And I still need room for the beer. And I sometimes have a low A or G whistle out too for some songs. I really like the elegance of only having the flute with me, but it bothers me that that limits my choice of tunes.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by Crackpot
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
I don't think that an unusual key (I don't mean that F is unusual per say, just that it's not the normal G/D) can make a tunes interesting. A tune is a tune. It's interest lies in the intervals not the notes' absolutes.
If you think you can make a tune more interesting by playing it in a different key you are deluded.
I learn a lot of tunes in C and F etc. But only because they are the keys they get played in. I always think a good test of whether a tune in an odd key is really any good or not is to try it in D or G. If you think that the tune sounds a bit boring in G or D, don't play it at all. F ain't gonna save it, no matter what you might think.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by ...
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
"A tune is a tune. It's interest lies in the intervals not the notes' absolutes".
Thats' what I always thought, and I assumed there was something I was missing because I am new to trad.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by harmonic miner
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Sometimes, when you are new to something, you can bring with you a realisation of a bit of truth that too much immersion can cloud
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by ...
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
"A tune is a tune. It's interest lies in the intervals not the notes' absolutes".
Well, yes, but also IMHO, no...
The key and pitch, and indeed the way an instrument is tuned, I would have thought, will all affect how any particular tune sounds - even if the intervals are the same. Different keys will surely alter fingerings and ornaments etc., contributing to the way a tune is played, and sounds. Perhaps I'm stating the obvious, though maybe not?
Also, speaking with my backing hat on, tunes played in some keys always sound brighter to my ear than those in other keys. If I hear a tune which sounds like it's in a "bright" key, I'm pretty certain that it is being played in either F, C or even E.
Having lit the blue touch paper, I'll now stand back and wait for the fireworks to commence....
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by On Sabbatical
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Of course different fingerings colour the way you play a tune. And can make it difficult if not impossible on certain instruments. And this is a consideration when choosing a key to play in. I like Black Pat's in F so I can roll the top note in the last part (an A in F, it's a B in G). But I'm more than happy to play it in G if there's keyless flutes about ... it's the same tune.
Some people deliberatly play tunes in hard keys to show off. Numpties.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by ...
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
On the flute, not all notes sound the same. e.g. The bell note (D on a keyless) is a lot stronger than the E. So a different key can change the feel of the tune on the flute. I presume the relationshiip of the important notes in the tune to the open strings on a fiddle/viola is similar? Notably, on my Boehm flute, there is very little difference in character between different keys - this is, of course, one of the things Theobald Boehm was aiming for when he designed the thing...
As a secondary issue, the available ornamentation is different on different notes, e.g. rolling a bottom D on a flute is not on. Or rolling a C#, though there are alternatives that can be used in these situations.
So back to the tune in question, I would like to play it in D on a D flute or in F on an F flute. By the sound of the comments, people would either get to know me and learn to play along in my preferred key or I would have to use the F flute amongst strangers..
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by Crackpot
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Same/similar issues with a fiddle of course, open strings etc.
And yes, those conciderations colour your choice of key.
But the advice about trying a tune in G or D that you might end up playing in F is to test whether the tune is worth learning in the first place. To counter any distorted feeling you might have about a tune in F being orriginal and worthy just because it's an unfamiliar key.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by ...
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
So, in summary (which I also happen to agree with strongly) the tune's the tune, and it'll be a good tune or not, irrespective of key. However, some tunes (most? all?) are better in one key than another, because of where they fall on particular instruments. And they'll produce differents effects depending on the key they're played in, for the same reason.
I am, however, lost as to why you need to try it in "G or D" when, since the tune's the tune, you might as well just try it in the key you found it in.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Just to add, on another, very minor topic, there are two flute players near me that regularly roll their bottom Ds on their 8-key flutes. And I mean roll, not cran. They do that too.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
You can roll a bottom D if you have a foot with the C# and C keys. Otherwise, please explain how you do it?
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by Crackpot
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Yes, that's why I said "on their 8-key futes". Still pretty impressive when they do it though!
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Sorry, what I mean is, that I assume by using the phrase "8-key flute" a 'normal' arrangement of keys, which would include the C and C# keys.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
"I don't think that an unusual key (I don't mean that F is unusual per say, just that it's not the normal G/D) can make a tunes interesting. A tune is a tune. It's interest lies in the intervals not the notes' absolutes"
If that was true, we wouldn't need different keys signatures at all. Do you think when Bach, Brahms etc were writing their Symphonies in C#minor or or in Ab they didn't given any real thought to the key as "it'll sound the same in any key" anyway?
Just sitting at a piano and jamming you can hear a real difference in the tone and atmosphere depending on which notes are played within a tune.
Of course trad is generally far more simple than classical, and without the written harmonies etc, so it's nowhere near as pronounced, but the differences are still there. One tune that frequently switches key depending on the player is Roslin Castle. Beautiful tune - beautiful in any key. But it really does have a totally different, more eerie feel in Gm (which I think was how it was written?) than in Am or Em.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by Cathf
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
sorry, I failed to read "8-key"....
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by Crackpot
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
"A tune is a tune. It's interest lies in the intervals not the notes' absolutes."
A lot of what I believe has already been debated against this comment. The absolute notes do have a different feeling in them. Forget about ornaments and drones etc for a minute (this is an important point nonetheless though).
If I play The Sally Gardens in G, I get nothing from it. No buzz, no matter how I variate it. It's just a tune that isn't interesting for me any more in that key. However, in the last few years, I've switched the key down to D and kept the same relative melody. Now, I love to play this tune. It sounds completely different. It is like an old melodeon tune now. Similarly, I play it in F too and, in this key, I like to play it after some moody Gm reel (Pigeon on the Gate perhaps). I play it slow and in my favoured East Galway/East Clare style, yet the notes are following an identical route to the common G standard (just down one tone).
So llig, just to let you know that, although you may not realise it, the notes themselves has some magic in them and feeling within tunes is not simply created by contours. On a midi file, maybe, but we're musicians, not computer nerds.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by 52Paddy
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
52Paddy, those other keys sound different ("better") to your ear because you're hearing them against the home tuning of your banjo or flute. If you played Sally Gardens in G on an F flute, you'd get the same buzz.
It's not the absolute pitch that creates tonal color, but the pitch and intervals relative to the natural pitch range of your instrument.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
D Minor - the saddest of keys :'-((
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by bogman
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
This Board (colour) is in A major. With just a hint of F# minor.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Will, interesting information to consider
# Posted on August 26th 2010 by 52Paddy
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Paddy, I tend to agree with you that each key/mode has its own quality, but not everyone hears that way. I work with a guy who has absolute pitch, and he hears very distinct colors to each key. My pitch isn't as consistent as his, but I can unstring a fiddle, put new strings on, and get back to A=440 without using a tuner or other pitch reference.
When you're accustomed to hearing a dominant tone or tones, such as D on a typical Irish flute, then you tend to hear all other notes relative to that dominant tone. This "colors" the other notes and scales on that instrument. The same is true on fiddle, with D, A, and G being the dominant tones.
I'm no expert--this is just my tuppence based on my own experience of listening.
# Posted on August 26th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
OK, I see your point. But, a very small point is that I get that same lease of life when I switch a G tune down to D. And both those keys comply with what my ears usually hear and what my instrument's pitch range is. With F and Bb and Gmin etc you make a good argument. But, in this case, it seems to cripple a little. I'm not trying to disagree here, by the way. I'm happily taking your opinion on board. I still stick by my previous post for the time being though.
# Posted on August 27th 2010 by 52Paddy
Re: Transposing (Scottish sessions?)
Try playing your normal tunes in your normal fingering on an Eb flute. Your tunes with your G fingering sound the same, even though you are actually playing in Ab. This should answer the question of the absolutes being irrelavent.
As far as playing G tunes in D on your banjo goes, (apart from it being antisocial for flute players) all you are reall doing is giving it a bit of extra growl. I can appreciate what you're after, I play G tunes on the viola with D fingering and it's great fun, But I really can't see how you should be getting a "new lease of life" out of it. I reiterate, it's the same tune.
# Posted on August 27th 2010 by ...