A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Hello everybody.
Is any of you aware of a tin whistle in D (and/or in G) which play consistently up to the second octave C natural (F natural respectively for the G whistles)? I tried a low G susato, a D clarke "original" and a D generation and none is fine for that purpose. The D generation is the best among the three, but it's still way out of tune. I could probably fix the tone with a different fingering for C natural in that octave, but if a whistle that plays fine with the normal fingering does exists, it would be easier and I wouldn't have a new fingering to remember and think of.
By the way, I ask because I'm playing with an accordeon player and in the low octave I'm barely audible, while in the second there's that C / F so brutally out of tune so...
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
My Burke does it. Cnat is usually a fingerng/technique problem and for me is a always a challenge. But that's my problem not the insturment's.
I am not surprised about the problem wit hte generation and the Clarke. They are somewhat hit and miss. But the Susatos usually deliver the notes cleanly, though the biggest complaint is too clear and too loud.
More to the point, have you considered using a different keyed whistle where the Cnat is...um...no pun intended.... more natural? Less challenging from a techique standpoint as it were?
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
I also play with an accordion player, PA, and found most of my whistles out of tune with that instrument - this includes several of my old flutes, too.
Now, I know that the accordion is in tune as it is regularly serviced at the factory, checked with tuners, and the fiddler doesn't seem to have any issues, and I know that whistles are very subject to fingerings and to breath pressure.
After working on this for a couple of years, I settled on a Kerry Songbird high D, that sounds great with the accordion. I also have a Chieftain Mezzo C that is a killer whistle.
I'm afraid that this kind of a problem requires a lot of buying and trying, until you get what you want. The only low whistle that I've had any luck with - tuning wise, is a Burke Low F - an excellent whistle and a lot of fun to play.
As for G whistles, I've not found one that I can play in tune, yet. I'm sure it's out there, and the trying and buying continues…………
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
There are two ways that I know of to achieve a true second octave C natural on any D whistle :-
1) Cover second hole from top + bottom three holes.
2) Half cover the top hole - I use this to play a glissando to C.
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
I don't know of any way to get that second octave Cnat to work with the same fingering as you do in the lower octave on a standard D whistle. I think it is not a function of whistle quality, it is a function of physics.
I think the half covered hole is the best way, you can tweak your finger position to get it in tune.
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
I agree, this is more a function of the player than the whistle. I half hole my second octave C naturals, but they seldom are more than a passing note in a tune and pitch is completely depends on how much I roll my finger.
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
If you really need that note, God is telling you to learn the recorder.
The best no-halfholing top C I've found on a six-hole whistle has been with Transylvanian wooden whistles. These are strongly reverse-conical or have a bore-reducing end plug as well. They're designed to be played up into the third octave.
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Please don't play that note on the whistle - have mercy on your
listeners. It's like an icepick through your brain, especially if
they're next to you in a session.
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
You generally don't want to try to move tunes up into the second octave if it means you're leaning on the high C. It's just not going to sound good, no matter what you do. For tunes like Sean Ryan's jig ("The Castle", I think he called it), that use the high c, half-holing is the way that's worked for me. A conical bore whistle will generally sound less painful up there than a straight-bore, in my experience. A Susato, of course, will kill small animals if you play a high c.
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
c sharp should be fine on any whistle but I think half holing is the best for c nat. It's easier to reach and half holing reduces the volume of the note considerably.
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Anal, have you considered the possibility that the accordion is out of tune, and not the whistle? Certainly the PA is going to be tuned to Equal temperament While the whistle may well be tuned to a different system such as just intonation.
Personally Im willing to sacrifice a bit of C#[flat] to get a good C nat , so I tape over a mm or so of the B hole., or half hole of course as suggested, certainly the most pleasant C nat IMO.
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Part of the skill to playing woodwinds is using a fingering that works for the instrument. This idea that fingerings are somehow fixed is rubbish.
That said, I'm with everyone else who wonders why you would want to torture your audience and fellow musicians with second octave C-naturals on a whistle.
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Elaine, true to a point and yet woodwind makers go to extreme lengths to provide fingering that complies to a set pattern , which makes it easier to move from one instrument to another.
I use the third D on one tune, very short and clipped though , i cuts though the babble right enough
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Keep your options open. If you're wanting to play a C natural 2 octaves apart (actually 2 C nats) you don't necessarily need to play the highest note on a given whistle. First off though, most whistles are going to have a difficult time matching pitch with an accordion on the highest half-holed or cross-fingered notes. I do have a high D Burke, with a thumb hole, which plays a 1st octave C natural & works if playing with fixed pitch instruments. I honestly don't know how it sounds in the 2nd octave. I don't even remember trying to play that particualr note, on that particular whistle.
Another possibility, depending on the tune, is a G whistle or fife. If a G works for the given tune then you have the lower & higher c natural without any half-holing or cross fingering.
I'm not talking about those tiny Generation or Susato G whistles. But rather the ones' in the middle. I believe that would be a alto range, though usually people just call them Low Gs.
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Thank you everybody, all the replies were interesting and sometimes amazing ("God is telling you to learn the recorder" is my facebook status now).
I will try with the half holing first; I didn't even considered it, being so much used to the cross fingering for C natural. And, I'll search for the Transylvanian whistle made to play up to the third octave (Jack, do you have any hints about how to get them? I still have to goole for that instrument tough but maybe you have some hint based upon your experience).
About the volume: men, I really need to be loud. I'm not going to play in session - that happens very seldomly - but rather in open space mostly for dancing people. Thus I definitely need to be heard!
A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Hello everybody.
Is any of you aware of a tin whistle in D (and/or in G) which play consistently up to the second octave C natural (F natural respectively for the G whistles)? I tried a low G susato, a D clarke "original" and a D generation and none is fine for that purpose. The D generation is the best among the three, but it's still way out of tune. I could probably fix the tone with a different fingering for C natural in that octave, but if a whistle that plays fine with the normal fingering does exists, it would be easier and I wouldn't have a new fingering to remember and think of.
By the way, I ask because I'm playing with an accordeon player and in the low octave I'm barely audible, while in the second there's that C / F so brutally out of tune so...
Thanks so much!
# Posted on August 19th 2010 by Anal
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
My Burke does it. Cnat is usually a fingerng/technique problem and for me is a always a challenge. But that's my problem not the insturment's.
I am not surprised about the problem wit hte generation and the Clarke. They are somewhat hit and miss. But the Susatos usually deliver the notes cleanly, though the biggest complaint is too clear and too loud.
More to the point, have you considered using a different keyed whistle where the Cnat is...um...no pun intended.... more natural? Less challenging from a techique standpoint as it were?
# Posted on August 19th 2010 by zippydw
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
I also play with an accordion player, PA, and found most of my whistles out of tune with that instrument - this includes several of my old flutes, too.
Now, I know that the accordion is in tune as it is regularly serviced at the factory, checked with tuners, and the fiddler doesn't seem to have any issues, and I know that whistles are very subject to fingerings and to breath pressure.
After working on this for a couple of years, I settled on a Kerry Songbird high D, that sounds great with the accordion. I also have a Chieftain Mezzo C that is a killer whistle.
I'm afraid that this kind of a problem requires a lot of buying and trying, until you get what you want. The only low whistle that I've had any luck with - tuning wise, is a Burke Low F - an excellent whistle and a lot of fun to play.
As for G whistles, I've not found one that I can play in tune, yet. I'm sure it's out there, and the trying and buying continues…………
# Posted on August 19th 2010 by Toppish
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
There are two ways that I know of to achieve a true second octave C natural on any D whistle :-
1) Cover second hole from top + bottom three holes.
2) Half cover the top hole - I use this to play a glissando to C.
# Posted on August 19th 2010 by Peter Piper
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
I don't know of any way to get that second octave Cnat to work with the same fingering as you do in the lower octave on a standard D whistle. I think it is not a function of whistle quality, it is a function of physics.
I think the half covered hole is the best way, you can tweak your finger position to get it in tune.
# Posted on August 19th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
I agree, this is more a function of the player than the whistle. I half hole my second octave C naturals, but they seldom are more than a passing note in a tune and pitch is completely depends on how much I roll my finger.
# Posted on August 19th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
If you really need that note, God is telling you to learn the recorder.
The best no-halfholing top C I've found on a six-hole whistle has been with Transylvanian wooden whistles. These are strongly reverse-conical or have a bore-reducing end plug as well. They're designed to be played up into the third octave.
# Posted on August 20th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Abell whistles are top class and in perfect tune.
# Posted on August 20th 2010 by pipersgrip
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Please don't play that note on the whistle - have mercy on your
listeners. It's like an icepick through your brain, especially if
they're next to you in a session.
# Posted on August 20th 2010 by Hup
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
You generally don't want to try to move tunes up into the second octave if it means you're leaning on the high C. It's just not going to sound good, no matter what you do. For tunes like Sean Ryan's jig ("The Castle", I think he called it), that use the high c, half-holing is the way that's worked for me. A conical bore whistle will generally sound less painful up there than a straight-bore, in my experience. A Susato, of course, will kill small animals if you play a high c.
# Posted on August 20th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
c sharp should be fine on any whistle but I think half holing is the best for c nat. It's easier to reach and half holing reduces the volume of the note considerably.
# Posted on August 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Sounds like the best approach is to work out a subtle variation that avoids the high C nat altogether.
# Posted on August 20th 2010 by zippydw
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Anal, have you considered the possibility that the accordion is out of tune, and not the whistle? Certainly the PA is going to be tuned to Equal temperament While the whistle may well be tuned to a different system such as just intonation.
Personally Im willing to sacrifice a bit of C#[flat] to get a good C nat , so I tape over a mm or so of the B hole., or half hole of course as suggested, certainly the most pleasant C nat IMO.
# Posted on August 20th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
For a lot of whistles (anything with a cylindrical bore) if you tape the hole to be in tune in one register, it won't be in the other.
Whistle intonation is flexible enough that the intonation system doesn't come into it.
# Posted on August 20th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Part of the skill to playing woodwinds is using a fingering that works for the instrument. This idea that fingerings are somehow fixed is rubbish.
That said, I'm with everyone else who wonders why you would want to torture your audience and fellow musicians with second octave C-naturals on a whistle.
# Posted on August 20th 2010 by ElaineT
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Elaine, true to a point and yet woodwind makers go to extreme lengths to provide fingering that complies to a set pattern , which makes it easier to move from one instrument to another.
I use the third D on one tune, very short and clipped though , i cuts though the babble right enough
# Posted on August 21st 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Keep your options open. If you're wanting to play a C natural 2 octaves apart (actually 2 C nats) you don't necessarily need to play the highest note on a given whistle. First off though, most whistles are going to have a difficult time matching pitch with an accordion on the highest half-holed or cross-fingered notes. I do have a high D Burke, with a thumb hole, which plays a 1st octave C natural & works if playing with fixed pitch instruments. I honestly don't know how it sounds in the 2nd octave. I don't even remember trying to play that particualr note, on that particular whistle.
Another possibility, depending on the tune, is a G whistle or fife. If a G works for the given tune then you have the lower & higher c natural without any half-holing or cross fingering.
# Posted on August 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
**
I'm not talking about those tiny Generation or Susato G whistles. But rather the ones' in the middle. I believe that would be a alto range, though usually people just call them Low Gs.
# Posted on August 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Thank you everybody, all the replies were interesting and sometimes amazing ("God is telling you to learn the recorder" is my facebook status now).
I will try with the half holing first; I didn't even considered it, being so much used to the cross fingering for C natural. And, I'll search for the Transylvanian whistle made to play up to the third octave (Jack, do you have any hints about how to get them? I still have to goole for that instrument tough but maybe you have some hint based upon your experience).
About the volume: men, I really need to be loud. I'm not going to play in session - that happens very seldomly - but rather in open space mostly for dancing people. Thus I definitely need to be heard!
Thanks all.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by Anal
Re: A whistle that plays second octave C natural in tune
Cool.
Googling for
Transylvanian wooden whistles
gives as the first result this very thread.
LOL.
# Posted on August 25th 2010 by Anal