There were comments in the recent Willie Clancy thread about playing in front of or behind the beat - referring to his solo playing. I also remember similar comments in the past, so I though this deserved its own thread.
I can understand how someone can play ahead of the beat in a session (even though the pace is steady) which gives the music an urgent kind of feel - or behind the beat which can make it feel laid back or in the extreme like its dragging.
But how does this work when you are playing on your own, you define your own beat, how can you be ahead of it?
It's a fine line between speeding up and slowing down on the one hand, and playing ahead or behind the beat on the other.
I prefer not to think in terms of tempo, it's too mechanical. But neither would I make a conscious effort to play either side of the beat. I prefer to think of the music having a pulse. And being able to push and pull the beat within phrases. In fact, one of the things that makes good phrasing is pushing and pulling the pulse.
There are various aural illusions (just like optical illusions) that can happen. For example, putting a dynamic accent on a beat can have the illusion of making it sound like you are anticipating it.
But don't go trying to measure all this. It's far to subtle to tease out mathematically. You could analyse it by looking at wave forms, but you will never be able to transfer that analytical knowledge to your playing, it's happens much too much on a micro scale for your brain to process in real time.
One could talk a lot of claptrap here, but it's about giving the music lift and drive while not losing the underlying pulse. I think when things are going well that I'm playing a little in front of the beat, but this is something I do better on mandolin or tenor banjo, though I'm working hard on my bowing (very necessary). It will be interesting to see what others say, but (especially for fiddle) it's also about switching the emphasis to the off-beat, slurring across bars while never losing the underlying pulse. There's always a pulse - it's there whatever you're doing, and you don't need to hammer it into pulp (see debates re backing). I have found a traditional metronome useful for home practice but I don't overuse it. Just let it run, and try and come in with the tune on the beat. Then play over and over again, trying lagging or advancing the beat with a bit of syncopation. It doesn't want to be jazzy - it just brings life to the music.
If you record the ticking of a metronome and cut it up into little sections, move them about a fraction, and play them back, some parts will be in front of the beat, and some behind. 'The beat' is what is implicit in the whole section, and may or may not be what the original recording was. I'll have to think about that a bit more. Or you could just put chewing gum on your shoe.
I absolutely agree that its feel and the pulse coming from pushing and pulling within phrases. The occasions I have played knee to knee with a great player is when I have felt that the most. You feel like you get pulled into their rhythm which for me is the absolute best bit of playing music!
But my question was actually about playing ahead of the beat on your own. So not speeding up but playing at a constant speed with a "phase difference". It doesn't make sense to me but it seemed to be what several people have talked about.
Think of it like rotational torque on a drive shaft. The shaft can still be rotating at the same speed, but it can either have a positive or negative torque.
Ha I love it - llig I'm an engineer so I can relate drive shafts! The torque produces some twist in the drive shaft so that one end is lightly ahead or behind the other even though they are doing the same speed.
No idea what that means Llig but I know that you are right! I dont think the music has to be perfectly in time for the rhythm to be good.I just cant explain why.
Oh, I had thought that the mention of 'rotational torque' in another thread was a joke.
In my puzzling over this I have wondered if it was about creating the impression that the 'on beat' event was always coming slightly before it was expected, but without the tempo changing. And the opposite for laid back.
Its pretty straight forwards really; each beat takes a specific amount of time to occur, whatever that might be depending on the instruments and players. If you imagine that the beat last for 3 units say , to play 'in front' of the beat means you play your note in the first unit , behind the beat: the third unit etc . Of course this is a simplistic description.
So to be able to play with this consciously means you need a very sharp appreciation of timing and control of your notes.
I don't think you can do it consciously. Its just too small an amount of time to consciously assimilate.
I remember reading somewhere about a study done on catching a cricket ball at slip. Some boffin compared the speed of the ball and the catchers adjustments to his hand position with the speed of the speed of his brain and brain-to-muscle reaction time. The conclusion was that's it's impossible. So how does he catch the ball? It's all practice and anticipation. You just have to have a feel for where the balls going.
Bluegrass players tend to play in front of the beat. It seems to give that music a drive that in my opinion doesn't translate all that well to irish music. I play sometimes with people who came up through bluegrass music and to me the tunes often feel like they're falling down a flight of stairs.
If you check out reggae or old R&B music from Memphis or New Orelans, you can hear really good rhythm sections playing behind the beat.
I practice with a metronome almost all the time and ideally I just have it clicking on the 1st beat of the measure so that I'm doing most of the work feeling the pulse.
"If you check out reggae or old R&B music from Memphis or New Orelans, you can hear really good rhythm sections playing behind the beat."
I've often used reggae as an analogy, for those not overly familiar with Irish trad, to try and explain the rhythmic nuances of this music; it's not *the same*, but it is a similar example of how minuscule variations in timing and dynamics can transform a monotonous sequence of sounds into an irresistible rhythm.
"What? Other forms of dance music may have things to teach us about playing our dance music? Heresy!"
In that case, you had better go fetch the boiling oil and the chains as well as setting up the stake with a big pile of oil-soaked wood and matches to light the wood at the foot of the stake for me because I am definitely a heretic who is way beyond the power of prayer.
A nice analogy I've heard is to think of the beat not as a point which you must hit dead on. Instead think of the beat as a football which you can hit dead in the middle, slightly to the front or slightly to the rear. As long as you hit the football you're still "in time". The subtlety comes in hitting the football/beat in the same spot consistently. As llig says, it's too small an amount of time to think about consciously. If you try to do it you'll miss the beat entirely. A silly mental image can help get the message to your brain.
I used to wonder what this mystical thing called "feel" is that some musicians have and others don't. This is a large part of that elusive quality. Compare the playing of Martin Hayes with Vassar Clements. What part of the beat do you think each player is hitting?
Miles Davis (I think) once said he enjoyed having white guys in his rhythm section becuase they would drive the ahead of the pocket, while have black guys carry the melody because they would try and pull back behind the beat - the battle between the two made the best music.
Racial and ethnic stereotypes aside, to my ignorant ears Tommy Peoples provides a very clear example of the "torque" in Irish music - floating just behind the pulse with some phrases, then pushing ahead of it with others. I love it.
Llig might be a nonbeliever of the concept of nyaa but might have coined a new word with this "Torque" . When they are discussing this in the years to come we can remember that we were here at its inception.
The way I think about pulse is how you move the *timing* around within the beat. In other words, the underlying beat stays relatively steady, but you can change the timing and duration of notes between the beats. This is what creates swing, syncopation, drive, etc.
I'm sorry but I have no idea what the usual general meaning of 'torque' is! I've looked it up in Wiki and it's lost me with the all the mechanical maths! I've never had or driven a vehicle and certainly never touched a toolbox with hammers, spanners and suchlike, thank you, so it's not my area!
I wholey understand the main subject of this thread and, indeed, have always messed with the groove in this way but before I refer to it as 'torque' I need someone to SIMPLY explain its original physics/ engineering meaning.
I like llig's torque analogy (and I finally understand what he was talking about when he brought it up before). You have to be careful, though. A few years into my playing, when I was finally getting good enough to play at "session speed", I found myself playing with a very good fiddler who tends to play ahead of the beat, and I found that I was speeding up to "keep up with him" (which in turn made him speed up). It took me a bit to realize that I was the one pushing the tempo up, not him. We would start a set at a reasonable pace, and end up playing blazingly fast. The "torque" he was applying was affecting me as a weaker player. And he was being courteous, trying to play with me, instead of holding it back. Of course, what was "blazingly fast" for me at that point was probably no big stretch for him...
For me, one of the biggest highs I get from playing the music is when I'm playing a set of tunes - usually reels - where there's a definite sense of positive momentum. The lift and drive feel like you're running downhill. It feels very distinctly like it is getting faster, but it's really staying at the same tempo. That usually happens at a pretty good, driving, fast tempo. I also like playing with the momentum as part of my phrasing. You can create momentum with a combination of articulation, dynamics, accents, and even variation. That can be done at any tempo, and it really makes the music come alive for me. It is every bit as much fun as the hard-driving, running-downhill sets.
Do you ever get tired of being a beginner's speed regulator? You know, you just back off (instead of keeping them steady through every little speed up) and let them keep accelerating until they crash and burn? Is that a little evil, I guess? A bit malicious?
Wow I've been to sleep since my last post - but some good discussion here but I think there are several aspects so I'll try and summarise what I am taking from this.
1. When playing with someone else or a group you can play ahead or behind the beat. Bernie 29's Billie Holiday link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGNc1yLGPug
is a good example of playing behind the beat. She is singing behind the beat but the beat is defined by the instrumentalists. That lazy feeling comes from the interaction of the two. Take the rythym section away and have vocals only and I'd imagine a lot of the effect would go.
2. When solo playing you can push and pull the beat within a phrase - but you can't consistently play ahead of the beat otherwise you've just redefined the beat - effectively you just started playing the tune earlier!
3. I think the football analogy and the cutting up the metronome beat analogy are to do with attack and sustain. So if you play a note with sharp attack like a banjo or you can ease into a note on a fiddle so that the emphasis comes later. But this is really just a way of achieving 2. above.
So my conclusion is that thinking of being ahead of the beat is not helpful to playing Irish Music, group or solo. I'm better off thinking about the feel of the phrase - and in a group just "locking in"
Anyway - its a hard topic to discuss in words but its interesting to hear people try!
Rev, I'll take courteous! I usually have a small amount of guilt after I do it, but a much larger sense of justice, as I reserve it only for habitual offenders. I mean, you really got to work hard to merit that.
I was going to write a long dull diatribe about tempo rubato and such, but Rocky nailed it just fine and Michael as usual said it well too. So, I've nothing to add except I was here and the discussion was good.
To go back to your original point -- although Willie is playing on his own, he is accompanying himself with the regulators. It is possible to play ahead of the beat in that case, especially since the notes of the chanter can readily be lengthened or shortened. Instead of the metronome clicks, think of sustained notes that can be started just before the beat, but released at the 'right' time. I take your point about not being able to play consistently ahead of yourself. Maybe it's all in the mind of the player; but it certainly seems to have an effect when I do it.
Just when I thought I had reached my conclusion - gam I think you have nailed it. I listened to the solo Willie Clancy clip again and it does sound to me like the blipping of his regulators is ahead of the chanter. It gives it that urgency or chirpiness.
So that must be option 4.
4. If your instrument can play some kind of counterpoint (pipes, maybe accordion bass notes, harp?) then you can create two sets of notes that have subtle timing differences.
I'm sure Willie Clancy wasn't thinking Oh I'll play my regulators slightly early, he is just playing what he feels, but I do find a bit of analysis quite interesting now and again!
Michael's posts in this thread are bloody brilliant. A real education. Doubtless spellthingie and his acolyte (alter ego?) tabby will demur and call me a llig-disciple yet again, but all power to the man's elbow anyway!
I see that thanks to Al you have discovered that your friend Jig is posting again.You have not the grace to apologize for all the grief you and ofhers gave me.I didnt expect it.
Waltzes are quite interesting in this regard, Rocky. Occasionally you can throw the second beat forward a tad and really lift a somewhat mechanical-sounding tune. But not all the time. I hear this far more in sessions than I do in recordings.
Thanks big_tab - its not often I post a thread and I was pleasantly surprised that people seemed put a lot of thought into their responses.
Now that I've sorted out rhythm and pulse for you guys (grin) I'm thinking about my next thread - intonation. I think I've got some new angles on that - how do you think that would go down?
I prefer the feeling of being behind the beat. The alternative
sounds and feels like it's always about to go off the rails. I have
not managed to get my fiddle playing to do this very consistently.
I think there are a lot of tricks of the trade I don't know yet.
Flute's getting pretty good though.
Pulling and pushing the rhythm is what gives music its life. I don't think there are many musicians in any type of music that give a pair of eighth notes the same value when they play them, or a trio of eighth notes in a jig. Those little minute tweaks to the duration of notes is part of what makes jazz sound like jazz, reggae like reggae, and The Music like The Music.
I was in a studio a few months ago, and the engineer had us try to play to click tracks. It was amazing how different it was to play against such a rigid structure--made me realize how fluid the rhythm of a dance tune can be!
(And PS, if I am the Al discussed above, I don't know what I have to do with anything either.)
Hup - I know what you're trying to say, but to stay behind the behind for the whole tune makes it drag and to push ahead makes it feel rushed, wouldn't you agree? I think Will Harmon pointed out that certain phrases of the tune when articulated well allow the musician the choice of being behind or in front to create that lilt and pulse that makes the tune come to life
I think anyone can play ahead of, on, or behind the beat even when playing solo. Just tap your foot and move around that. And really, you don't even have to have that--the beat is internal. (If it's not, you're relying on some external beat, you may not yet be ready to tinker with moving your timing around the beat.)
And--contrary to Rocky Nook's conclusion--it's absolutely ***essential*** to playing this music with others (if you want to fit in and do it well) that you can hear and adjust to whether people are playing ahead of, on, or behind the beat, and when it shifts. To say that thinking about this is not helpful to playing this music is to risk becoming a session wrecker, or at best, a musical narcissist that pulls every session to his or her pulse by default (because s/he isn't listening to the other players or adapting to their pulse so they have to adapt to his/hers).
Even playing solo, some tunes (and depending on your mood) fairly beg to be driven, while others want a more laid back approach. Dancers, too, can ask for different feels for different tunes.
Again, being careful about our terminology is useful here. When you talk about being ahead of, on, or behind the beat, you're talking about *timing.* The underlying rhythm may be rock solid, while the timing is malleable and ***responsive***--to the tune, to our sense of phrasing at the moment, to what other players are doing, to what dancers want, and so on.
Hi Will, yes I think the terminology is part of my problem. Don't worry - I haven't concluded that I don't need to listen in a session - thats what I meant by "locking in" - listening to the beat, or rhythm to use your term and playing in time. What I meant was I just think about playing in time and I think about phrasing the music in my head.
Do you mean that you consciously think about moving relative to your internal beat - I will try it myself and see if it makes sense.
By the way, what did you think about the comment of Willie Clancy's regulators being ahead of his chanter?
Yes, my sense of timing and phrasing is flexible around my internal sense of rhythm. The rhythmic beat is steady--the timing and duration of notes between and across the beats fluctuates to create a sense of lift, momentum, nyah, drive, etc.
In the two clips I posted of Clancy playing on Bernie's thread, I hear him plainly moving the timing around the beat. Mostly I hear him use the regulators to produce a steady backbeat, and he shifts the timing of the chanter melody around that. In the clip of him playing Garret Barry's, the melody and regulators play off each other more. I get the sense that he's winging it without much preparation or commitment, other than to have fun, once through the tune. Sounds and looks like a one-off lark to me.
Notice also that both of those video clips look sped up and stilted--the people's movements aren't entirely natural. This could also affect the audio.
Delve into "Last Nigt's Fun" (by Ciaran Carson, a contemporary of mine in the 60's Norn Irn folk scene) and you will find various references about the beat/swing/ or whatever you choose to call it.
There is even a musing on the effect that a button box player's overcoat has on the time delay re' the sound of the instrument.
I must re read it.
Well, after reading this thread, last night I tried to figure out exactly what I do on guitar, whether I’m playing on, in front or behind the beat. Notwithstanding the fact that trying to figure it out seemed to disrupt whatever I do naturally, I *think* I generally seem to come in before the beat with a single root note, then hit a light half chord just after that same beat, then put a more heavy emphasis on the off beat.
<Waits for a sting of posts telling me that’s entirely wrong for ITM>
You hear a lot of strummers and thumpers playing behind the beat because they lock the movements of their arms to the beat. And because there's a time lag between the arm starting to move and the plectrum hitting the strings - or the stick thwacking the drum - it comes out behind the beat. I really really feckin hate that, the feckin deaf eedjits. And always tell said offenders to shut up.
With regards to regulators, the way the keys are designed means you can play a chord and seamlessly move up a chord. But to move down a chord you have to lift your wrist off, move it, and place it back down again. This can have interesting effects on the timing. Willy Clancy often makes the moving down a chord lag slightly behind the beat which gives the effect of the chanter being ahead of the beat. I prefer Liam O'Flynn's regulator playing. When he moves down a chord he always interrupts the previous higher chord before the end of the measure so he can nail the lower chord spot on. I love that interruption, it creates the hup. Lovely. And you can do it on the flute too, of course, when you sip a little breath. And on the fiddle - if you've got decent bow.
An example of a singer staying a tad behind the beat of the backing instrumentalists is Don McLean in his song "American Pie". Seems that many pop and jazz singers do this, and solo instrumentalists too.
Years ago I attended a workshop given by a great Irish fiddler and he talked about the different ways that fiddlers from different traditions attack the beat with their bow. I don't know if this is true, but he said that US "old-timey" fiddlers attacked the beat more softly, maybe just behind the beat, while Irish fiddlers were a bit more aggressive with the bow, and Cape Breton fiddlers more on top of the beat still.
my grandma doesn't really play anymore, but she tended to play in front of the beat. she did this by taking the first note of the beat, and starting it a bit early. it's difficult to do well, but it's very simple. it is most pronounceable in her playing every four beats, i.e. the first beat of every phrase. thus i learned to play in front of the beat from her. my grandma's cousin does it so much that she will sometimes take a note, and start it half way through the previous beat (she's got a lot of spunk!)
so, it may be an elusive concept, but there are some players who do it in a much more easily noticed way. a good way to learn how to do it is to start tapping your foot. notice that the beat is not at the top, or the bottom of the foot's movement, but in the middle (please, don't argue with me. i was taught that by james kelly, and i have done much studying of people's foot tapping; he is correct). try only playing in front of the beat on the down beat of every phrase (i.e. 2 measures). to accomplish this, try to start this down beat at the very top of your foot's tap. in order to stay in time, do NOT start the next note until the appropriate time. what you are effectively doing, thus, is LENGTHENING the first note to start before the beat.
a skilled player will also emphasize the actual underlying beat, by putting a swell or "oomph" in the middle of this note, corresponding with the actual beat. i like to think of playing in front of the beat as creating a swell--like a wave--with the downbeat. good players flirt with this swell, making it shorter and longer.
this is how you can do it by yourself.... by borrowing time from notes, while making sure to 1.) make the beat apparent by LENGTHENING the first note, not just starting it ahead of the beat, and 2.) by ensuring that the internal structure of the beat is maintained by emphasizing the rhythmic divisions of the beat itself, rather than the notes (which are changing in length)
please note that mini-treatise is only a quick guide on how to start playing ahead of the beat. to really get the neagh in there ("nyah"), all of the notes are going to have to swell into each other, alternatively borrowing and giving time. i could explain this at length, but i'm sure nobody cares! often times if you want to emphasize any particular note, try lengthening it and starting it early. it will add a lot of lift to your playing! please note, of course, that there are multiple ways to emphasize notes. my grandma, or example, does a lot of lengthening and swelling of notes, whereas her cousin does a lot of hard attacks to emphasize notes.
I know most of you folks are skeptical about what can be learned from looking at waveforms. If you do look at waveforms and compare what actually happens to what, say, a midi file would do then some of the things people have mentioned here, particularly in daiv's post above, are not hard to find.
We get beats where a note of a different pitch comes in quietly on the beat and swells later, beats where a new note close in pitch the preceding one has started well before the beat but some change in dynamics occurs on the beat. Beats where, there is no change in pitch but some change in dynamics or tone occurs near the beat. Those are without looking at ornaments, variations in attack, and the cutting short of notes.
I don't think looking at the trace halps play the music - but it does help understand what you lot are talking about.
Hi Daiv - That sounds really interesting. Something specific enough that I can actually try it myself - so I will go off and watch my foot and let you know how I get on. I would like to think I'm doing some of this naturally just by trying to get the sound of the phrase but then again it would be great if I have a revelation and suddenly create lift where there currently isn't any!
Playing in front of the beat
Playing in front of the beat
There were comments in the recent Willie Clancy thread about playing in front of or behind the beat - referring to his solo playing. I also remember similar comments in the past, so I though this deserved its own thread.
I can understand how someone can play ahead of the beat in a session (even though the pace is steady) which gives the music an urgent kind of feel - or behind the beat which can make it feel laid back or in the extreme like its dragging.
But how does this work when you are playing on your own, you define your own beat, how can you be ahead of it?
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by Rocky Nook
Re: Playing in front of the beat
It's a fine line between speeding up and slowing down on the one hand, and playing ahead or behind the beat on the other.
I prefer not to think in terms of tempo, it's too mechanical. But neither would I make a conscious effort to play either side of the beat. I prefer to think of the music having a pulse. And being able to push and pull the beat within phrases. In fact, one of the things that makes good phrasing is pushing and pulling the pulse.
There are various aural illusions (just like optical illusions) that can happen. For example, putting a dynamic accent on a beat can have the illusion of making it sound like you are anticipating it.
But don't go trying to measure all this. It's far to subtle to tease out mathematically. You could analyse it by looking at wave forms, but you will never be able to transfer that analytical knowledge to your playing, it's happens much too much on a micro scale for your brain to process in real time.
I hate to say it, but you just have to feel it.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Playing in front of the beat
One could talk a lot of claptrap here, but it's about giving the music lift and drive while not losing the underlying pulse. I think when things are going well that I'm playing a little in front of the beat, but this is something I do better on mandolin or tenor banjo, though I'm working hard on my bowing (very necessary). It will be interesting to see what others say, but (especially for fiddle) it's also about switching the emphasis to the off-beat, slurring across bars while never losing the underlying pulse. There's always a pulse - it's there whatever you're doing, and you don't need to hammer it into pulp (see debates re backing). I have found a traditional metronome useful for home practice but I don't overuse it. Just let it run, and try and come in with the tune on the beat. Then play over and over again, trying lagging or advancing the beat with a bit of syncopation. It doesn't want to be jazzy - it just brings life to the music.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by RichardB
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Cross-posted with Michael - there's a pulse up where he is too!
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by RichardB
Re: Playing in front of the beat
If you record the ticking of a metronome and cut it up into little sections, move them about a fraction, and play them back, some parts will be in front of the beat, and some behind. 'The beat' is what is implicit in the whole section, and may or may not be what the original recording was. I'll have to think about that a bit more. Or you could just put chewing gum on your shoe.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by gam
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Thanks for the comments.
I absolutely agree that its feel and the pulse coming from pushing and pulling within phrases. The occasions I have played knee to knee with a great player is when I have felt that the most. You feel like you get pulled into their rhythm which for me is the absolute best bit of playing music!
But my question was actually about playing ahead of the beat on your own. So not speeding up but playing at a constant speed with a "phase difference". It doesn't make sense to me but it seemed to be what several people have talked about.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by Rocky Nook
Re: Playing in front of the beat
its either in time , or its not. if its not, its sh1ite. hippy bullsh1it aside
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Playing in front of the beat
The enlightenment you seek is unavailable in mere words (as Miss Mulligan has indicated!)
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by RichardB
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Think of it like rotational torque on a drive shaft. The shaft can still be rotating at the same speed, but it can either have a positive or negative torque.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Torque is a good explanation... although a metronome adjustable by foot-pound increments is certainly a few years off.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by gravelwalks
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Ha I love it - llig I'm an engineer so I can relate drive shafts! The torque produces some twist in the drive shaft so that one end is lightly ahead or behind the other even though they are doing the same speed.
I'm not sure that this will help my playing!
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by Rocky Nook
Re: Playing in front of the beat
No idea what that means Llig but I know that you are right! I dont think the music has to be perfectly in time for the rhythm to be good.I just cant explain why.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Oh, I had thought that the mention of 'rotational torque' in another thread was a joke.
In my puzzling over this I have wondered if it was about creating the impression that the 'on beat' event was always coming slightly before it was expected, but without the tempo changing. And the opposite for laid back.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by David50
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Yes, it's the impression of it. Created through aural illusions, and possibly even backed up with stuff like body language.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Playing in front of the beat
There are flams and drags to consider
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by mcknowall
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Its pretty straight forwards really; each beat takes a specific amount of time to occur, whatever that might be depending on the instruments and players. If you imagine that the beat last for 3 units say , to play 'in front' of the beat means you play your note in the first unit , behind the beat: the third unit etc . Of course this is a simplistic description.
So to be able to play with this consciously means you need a very sharp appreciation of timing and control of your notes.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Playing in front of the beat
I don't think you can do it consciously. Its just too small an amount of time to consciously assimilate.
I remember reading somewhere about a study done on catching a cricket ball at slip. Some boffin compared the speed of the ball and the catchers adjustments to his hand position with the speed of the speed of his brain and brain-to-muscle reaction time. The conclusion was that's it's impossible. So how does he catch the ball? It's all practice and anticipation. You just have to have a feel for where the balls going.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Bluegrass players tend to play in front of the beat. It seems to give that music a drive that in my opinion doesn't translate all that well to irish music. I play sometimes with people who came up through bluegrass music and to me the tunes often feel like they're falling down a flight of stairs.
If you check out reggae or old R&B music from Memphis or New Orelans, you can hear really good rhythm sections playing behind the beat.
I practice with a metronome almost all the time and ideally I just have it clicking on the 1st beat of the measure so that I'm doing most of the work feeling the pulse.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by Steve L
Re: Playing in front of the beat
'pushing and pulling the beat with phrases'
That's it. I can't imagine trying to describe how to do that mechanically.
Steve, I agree with the falling down stairs, no push or pull there. Well, maybe it's just all push really.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Great example of Billie Holiday lagging behind the beat here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGNc1yLGPug
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by Bernie 29
Re: Playing in front of the beat
"If you check out reggae or old R&B music from Memphis or New Orelans, you can hear really good rhythm sections playing behind the beat."
I've often used reggae as an analogy, for those not overly familiar with Irish trad, to try and explain the rhythmic nuances of this music; it's not *the same*, but it is a similar example of how minuscule variations in timing and dynamics can transform a monotonous sequence of sounds into an irresistible rhythm.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Playing in front of the beat
What? Other forms of dance music may have things to teach us about playing our dance music? Heresy!
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Playing in front of the beat
"What? Other forms of dance music may have things to teach us about playing our dance music? Heresy!"
In that case, you had better go fetch the boiling oil and the chains as well as setting up the stake with a big pile of oil-soaked wood and matches to light the wood at the foot of the stake for me because I am definitely a heretic who is way beyond the power of prayer.
Laurence
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: Playing in front of the beat
A nice analogy I've heard is to think of the beat not as a point which you must hit dead on. Instead think of the beat as a football which you can hit dead in the middle, slightly to the front or slightly to the rear. As long as you hit the football you're still "in time". The subtlety comes in hitting the football/beat in the same spot consistently. As llig says, it's too small an amount of time to think about consciously. If you try to do it you'll miss the beat entirely. A silly mental image can help get the message to your brain.
I used to wonder what this mystical thing called "feel" is that some musicians have and others don't. This is a large part of that elusive quality. Compare the playing of Martin Hayes with Vassar Clements. What part of the beat do you think each player is hitting?
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by SteelPlayer
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Miles Davis (I think) once said he enjoyed having white guys in his rhythm section becuase they would drive the ahead of the pocket, while have black guys carry the melody because they would try and pull back behind the beat - the battle between the two made the best music.
Racial and ethnic stereotypes aside, to my ignorant ears Tommy Peoples provides a very clear example of the "torque" in Irish music - floating just behind the pulse with some phrases, then pushing ahead of it with others. I love it.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Laurence, if you ever get down this way I'll sing you my reggae version of Peggy Gordon.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Llig might be a nonbeliever of the concept of nyaa but might have coined a new word with this "Torque" . When they are discussing this in the years to come we can remember that we were here at its inception.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Playing in front of the beat
The way I think about pulse is how you move the *timing* around within the beat. In other words, the underlying beat stays relatively steady, but you can change the timing and duration of notes between the beats. This is what creates swing, syncopation, drive, etc.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by Will Harmon
Please define...
I'm sorry but I have no idea what the usual general meaning of 'torque' is! I've looked it up in Wiki and it's lost me with the all the mechanical maths! I've never had or driven a vehicle and certainly never touched a toolbox with hammers, spanners and suchlike, thank you, so it's not my area!
I wholey understand the main subject of this thread and, indeed, have always messed with the groove in this way but before I refer to it as 'torque' I need someone to SIMPLY explain its original physics/ engineering meaning.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Torque is rotational force, it kind of acts like leverage. That's stretching the analogy pretty thin though, makes it sound more like accenting.
Tempo and timing are two different things. You can play around the beat without actually moving the beat, if that makes sense.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by Marklar
Re: Playing in front of the beat
I like llig's torque analogy (and I finally understand what he was talking about when he brought it up before). You have to be careful, though. A few years into my playing, when I was finally getting good enough to play at "session speed", I found myself playing with a very good fiddler who tends to play ahead of the beat, and I found that I was speeding up to "keep up with him" (which in turn made him speed up). It took me a bit to realize that I was the one pushing the tempo up, not him. We would start a set at a reasonable pace, and end up playing blazingly fast. The "torque" he was applying was affecting me as a weaker player. And he was being courteous, trying to play with me, instead of holding it back. Of course, what was "blazingly fast" for me at that point was probably no big stretch for him...
For me, one of the biggest highs I get from playing the music is when I'm playing a set of tunes - usually reels - where there's a definite sense of positive momentum. The lift and drive feel like you're running downhill. It feels very distinctly like it is getting faster, but it's really staying at the same tempo. That usually happens at a pretty good, driving, fast tempo. I also like playing with the momentum as part of my phrasing. You can create momentum with a combination of articulation, dynamics, accents, and even variation. That can be done at any tempo, and it really makes the music come alive for me. It is every bit as much fun as the hard-driving, running-downhill sets.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Do you ever get tired of being a beginner's speed regulator? You know, you just back off (instead of keeping them steady through every little speed up) and let them keep accelerating until they crash and burn? Is that a little evil, I guess? A bit malicious?
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Well, of course I called it "courteous", but maybe a little evil mixed in there, too
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Wow I've been to sleep since my last post - but some good discussion here but I think there are several aspects so I'll try and summarise what I am taking from this.
1. When playing with someone else or a group you can play ahead or behind the beat. Bernie 29's Billie Holiday link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGNc1yLGPug
is a good example of playing behind the beat. She is singing behind the beat but the beat is defined by the instrumentalists. That lazy feeling comes from the interaction of the two. Take the rythym section away and have vocals only and I'd imagine a lot of the effect would go.
2. When solo playing you can push and pull the beat within a phrase - but you can't consistently play ahead of the beat otherwise you've just redefined the beat - effectively you just started playing the tune earlier!
3. I think the football analogy and the cutting up the metronome beat analogy are to do with attack and sustain. So if you play a note with sharp attack like a banjo or you can ease into a note on a fiddle so that the emphasis comes later. But this is really just a way of achieving 2. above.
So my conclusion is that thinking of being ahead of the beat is not helpful to playing Irish Music, group or solo. I'm better off thinking about the feel of the phrase - and in a group just "locking in"
Anyway - its a hard topic to discuss in words but its interesting to hear people try!
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by Rocky Nook
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Rev, I'll take courteous! I usually have a small amount of guilt after I do it, but a much larger sense of justice, as I reserve it only for habitual offenders. I mean, you really got to work hard to merit that.
"...the feel of the phrase...'locking in'..."
Important stuff there Rocky.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Playing in front of the beat
I was going to write a long dull diatribe about tempo rubato and such, but Rocky nailed it just fine and Michael as usual said it well too. So, I've nothing to add except I was here and the discussion was good.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by cboody
Re: Playing in front of the beat
To go back to your original point -- although Willie is playing on his own, he is accompanying himself with the regulators. It is possible to play ahead of the beat in that case, especially since the notes of the chanter can readily be lengthened or shortened. Instead of the metronome clicks, think of sustained notes that can be started just before the beat, but released at the 'right' time. I take your point about not being able to play consistently ahead of yourself. Maybe it's all in the mind of the player; but it certainly seems to have an effect when I do it.
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by gam
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Just when I thought I had reached my conclusion - gam I think you have nailed it. I listened to the solo Willie Clancy clip again and it does sound to me like the blipping of his regulators is ahead of the chanter. It gives it that urgency or chirpiness.
So that must be option 4.
4. If your instrument can play some kind of counterpoint (pipes, maybe accordion bass notes, harp?) then you can create two sets of notes that have subtle timing differences.
I'm sure Willie Clancy wasn't thinking Oh I'll play my regulators slightly early, he is just playing what he feels, but I do find a bit of analysis quite interesting now and again!
# Posted on August 12th 2010 by Rocky Nook
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Michael's posts in this thread are bloody brilliant. A real education. Doubtless spellthingie and his acolyte (alter ego?) tabby will demur and call me a llig-disciple yet again, but all power to the man's elbow anyway!
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Actually Steve I also think that Michaels posts are brilliant.
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Playing in front of the beat
I see that thanks to Al you have discovered that your friend Jig is posting again.You have not the grace to apologize for all the grief you and ofhers gave me.I didnt expect it.
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Playing in front of the beat
I didn't understand that post at all, but I was just wondering whether spellie agreed with you, tabby.
And I have no idea what Al has to do with it!
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Hey don't spoil my thread.
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Rocky Nook
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Sorry Rocky! Great thread..
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Waltzes are quite interesting in this regard, Rocky. Occasionally you can throw the second beat forward a tad and really lift a somewhat mechanical-sounding tune. But not all the time. I hear this far more in sessions than I do in recordings.
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Thanks big_tab - its not often I post a thread and I was pleasantly surprised that people seemed put a lot of thought into their responses.
Now that I've sorted out rhythm and pulse for you guys (grin) I'm thinking about my next thread - intonation. I think I've got some new angles on that - how do you think that would go down?
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Rocky Nook
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Intonation? As long as you're all in tune with the harmonica man, who cares?
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Being in tune with the harmonica man is easy, you just need a piper to drown him out
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Marklar
Re: Playing in front of the beat
It happens often! But it's amazing what you can do with just a little battery amp...
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Playing in front of the beat
I prefer the feeling of being behind the beat. The alternative
sounds and feels like it's always about to go off the rails. I have
not managed to get my fiddle playing to do this very consistently.
I think there are a lot of tricks of the trade I don't know yet.
Flute's getting pretty good though.
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Hup
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Pulling and pushing the rhythm is what gives music its life. I don't think there are many musicians in any type of music that give a pair of eighth notes the same value when they play them, or a trio of eighth notes in a jig. Those little minute tweaks to the duration of notes is part of what makes jazz sound like jazz, reggae like reggae, and The Music like The Music.
I was in a studio a few months ago, and the engineer had us try to play to click tracks. It was amazing how different it was to play against such a rigid structure--made me realize how fluid the rhythm of a dance tune can be!
(And PS, if I am the Al discussed above, I don't know what I have to do with anything either.)
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Hup - I know what you're trying to say, but to stay behind the behind for the whole tune makes it drag and to push ahead makes it feel rushed, wouldn't you agree? I think Will Harmon pointed out that certain phrases of the tune when articulated well allow the musician the choice of being behind or in front to create that lilt and pulse that makes the tune come to life
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Playing in front of the beat
You're right Jusa - Martin Hayes does this to the nth degree for
example.
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Hup
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Thinking out loud here.
I have to disagree with Rocky Nook's point No. 2.
I think anyone can play ahead of, on, or behind the beat even when playing solo. Just tap your foot and move around that. And really, you don't even have to have that--the beat is internal. (If it's not, you're relying on some external beat, you may not yet be ready to tinker with moving your timing around the beat.)
And--contrary to Rocky Nook's conclusion--it's absolutely ***essential*** to playing this music with others (if you want to fit in and do it well) that you can hear and adjust to whether people are playing ahead of, on, or behind the beat, and when it shifts. To say that thinking about this is not helpful to playing this music is to risk becoming a session wrecker, or at best, a musical narcissist that pulls every session to his or her pulse by default (because s/he isn't listening to the other players or adapting to their pulse so they have to adapt to his/hers).
Even playing solo, some tunes (and depending on your mood) fairly beg to be driven, while others want a more laid back approach. Dancers, too, can ask for different feels for different tunes.
Again, being careful about our terminology is useful here. When you talk about being ahead of, on, or behind the beat, you're talking about *timing.* The underlying rhythm may be rock solid, while the timing is malleable and ***responsive***--to the tune, to our sense of phrasing at the moment, to what other players are doing, to what dancers want, and so on.
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Hi Will, yes I think the terminology is part of my problem. Don't worry - I haven't concluded that I don't need to listen in a session - thats what I meant by "locking in" - listening to the beat, or rhythm to use your term and playing in time. What I meant was I just think about playing in time and I think about phrasing the music in my head.
Do you mean that you consciously think about moving relative to your internal beat - I will try it myself and see if it makes sense.
By the way, what did you think about the comment of Willie Clancy's regulators being ahead of his chanter?
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Rocky Nook
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Yes, my sense of timing and phrasing is flexible around my internal sense of rhythm. The rhythmic beat is steady--the timing and duration of notes between and across the beats fluctuates to create a sense of lift, momentum, nyah, drive, etc.
In the two clips I posted of Clancy playing on Bernie's thread, I hear him plainly moving the timing around the beat. Mostly I hear him use the regulators to produce a steady backbeat, and he shifts the timing of the chanter melody around that. In the clip of him playing Garret Barry's, the melody and regulators play off each other more. I get the sense that he's winging it without much preparation or commitment, other than to have fun, once through the tune. Sounds and looks like a one-off lark to me.
Notice also that both of those video clips look sped up and stilted--the people's movements aren't entirely natural. This could also affect the audio.
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Delve into "Last Nigt's Fun" (by Ciaran Carson, a contemporary of mine in the 60's Norn Irn folk scene) and you will find various references about the beat/swing/ or whatever you choose to call it.
There is even a musing on the effect that a button box player's overcoat has on the time delay re' the sound of the instrument.
I must re read it.
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by sam bracken
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Well, after reading this thread, last night I tried to figure out exactly what I do on guitar, whether I’m playing on, in front or behind the beat. Notwithstanding the fact that trying to figure it out seemed to disrupt whatever I do naturally, I *think* I generally seem to come in before the beat with a single root note, then hit a light half chord just after that same beat, then put a more heavy emphasis on the off beat.
<Waits for a sting of posts telling me that’s entirely wrong for ITM>
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Cathf
Re: Playing in front of the beat
You hear a lot of strummers and thumpers playing behind the beat because they lock the movements of their arms to the beat. And because there's a time lag between the arm starting to move and the plectrum hitting the strings - or the stick thwacking the drum - it comes out behind the beat. I really really feckin hate that, the feckin deaf eedjits. And always tell said offenders to shut up.
With regards to regulators, the way the keys are designed means you can play a chord and seamlessly move up a chord. But to move down a chord you have to lift your wrist off, move it, and place it back down again. This can have interesting effects on the timing. Willy Clancy often makes the moving down a chord lag slightly behind the beat which gives the effect of the chanter being ahead of the beat. I prefer Liam O'Flynn's regulator playing. When he moves down a chord he always interrupts the previous higher chord before the end of the measure so he can nail the lower chord spot on. I love that interruption, it creates the hup. Lovely. And you can do it on the flute too, of course, when you sip a little breath. And on the fiddle - if you've got decent bow.
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Playing in front of the beat
An example of a singer staying a tad behind the beat of the backing instrumentalists is Don McLean in his song "American Pie". Seems that many pop and jazz singers do this, and solo instrumentalists too.
Years ago I attended a workshop given by a great Irish fiddler and he talked about the different ways that fiddlers from different traditions attack the beat with their bow. I don't know if this is true, but he said that US "old-timey" fiddlers attacked the beat more softly, maybe just behind the beat, while Irish fiddlers were a bit more aggressive with the bow, and Cape Breton fiddlers more on top of the beat still.
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by Richard D Cook
Re: Playing in front of the beat
plaster compared to drywall
# Posted on August 13th 2010 by edorian
Re: Playing in front of the beat
my grandma doesn't really play anymore, but she tended to play in front of the beat. she did this by taking the first note of the beat, and starting it a bit early. it's difficult to do well, but it's very simple. it is most pronounceable in her playing every four beats, i.e. the first beat of every phrase. thus i learned to play in front of the beat from her. my grandma's cousin does it so much that she will sometimes take a note, and start it half way through the previous beat (she's got a lot of spunk!)
so, it may be an elusive concept, but there are some players who do it in a much more easily noticed way. a good way to learn how to do it is to start tapping your foot. notice that the beat is not at the top, or the bottom of the foot's movement, but in the middle (please, don't argue with me. i was taught that by james kelly, and i have done much studying of people's foot tapping; he is correct). try only playing in front of the beat on the down beat of every phrase (i.e. 2 measures). to accomplish this, try to start this down beat at the very top of your foot's tap. in order to stay in time, do NOT start the next note until the appropriate time. what you are effectively doing, thus, is LENGTHENING the first note to start before the beat.
a skilled player will also emphasize the actual underlying beat, by putting a swell or "oomph" in the middle of this note, corresponding with the actual beat. i like to think of playing in front of the beat as creating a swell--like a wave--with the downbeat. good players flirt with this swell, making it shorter and longer.
this is how you can do it by yourself.... by borrowing time from notes, while making sure to 1.) make the beat apparent by LENGTHENING the first note, not just starting it ahead of the beat, and 2.) by ensuring that the internal structure of the beat is maintained by emphasizing the rhythmic divisions of the beat itself, rather than the notes (which are changing in length)
# Posted on August 14th 2010 by daiv
Re: Playing in front of the beat
please note that mini-treatise is only a quick guide on how to start playing ahead of the beat. to really get the neagh in there ("nyah"), all of the notes are going to have to swell into each other, alternatively borrowing and giving time. i could explain this at length, but i'm sure nobody cares! often times if you want to emphasize any particular note, try lengthening it and starting it early. it will add a lot of lift to your playing! please note, of course, that there are multiple ways to emphasize notes. my grandma, or example, does a lot of lengthening and swelling of notes, whereas her cousin does a lot of hard attacks to emphasize notes.
# Posted on August 14th 2010 by daiv
Re: Playing in front of the beat
I know most of you folks are skeptical about what can be learned from looking at waveforms. If you do look at waveforms and compare what actually happens to what, say, a midi file would do then some of the things people have mentioned here, particularly in daiv's post above, are not hard to find.
We get beats where a note of a different pitch comes in quietly on the beat and swells later, beats where a new note close in pitch the preceding one has started well before the beat but some change in dynamics occurs on the beat. Beats where, there is no change in pitch but some change in dynamics or tone occurs near the beat. Those are without looking at ornaments, variations in attack, and the cutting short of notes.
I don't think looking at the trace halps play the music - but it does help understand what you lot are talking about.
# Posted on August 14th 2010 by David50
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Presumably the difference between 'laid back' and 'hesitant' is something along the same lines.
# Posted on August 14th 2010 by David50
Re: Playing in front of the beat
Hi Daiv - That sounds really interesting. Something specific enough that I can actually try it myself - so I will go off and watch my foot and let you know how I get on. I would like to think I'm doing some of this naturally just by trying to get the sound of the phrase but then again it would be great if I have a revelation and suddenly create lift where there currently isn't any!
# Posted on August 14th 2010 by Rocky Nook