Hey - I'm just wondering what people feel about tunes/songs etc where the melodies and so on are obviously in the "style" of Irish/Scottish folk (for lack of a better term)?
Would you include them in sessions?
Should the tunes/melodies be shared on resources such as websites/forums?
When (if ever) would these be considered 'acceptable' to be included etc
Things like that
For example, there is an instrumental song by a band which features Irish instruments but also all of the main melodies are strongly influenced by trad music (at least, to my ear).
Hey Barry. New words to old melodies is a traditional unto itself. New tunes are written by proficient musicians all the time and are also often adopted into the tradition. In fact, it's such a plague they have rules about posting your stuff on here. There's no rule in real life though. If it's good, it may last. If it ain't, it won't. Learn that tune you like from that band you mentioned and play it for your friends at your local session, see what they think.
An instrumental song is a tune. Sing a song, play a tune.
Or "Dirty Old Town"? (Written about Salford, of course.) OT, of course, but I've just looked Ewan McColl up. Some fascinatng facts about the man. I could have sworn he was a Scot born and bred, but not so, although he did have Scottish parents. And, to my amazement, he was born in 1915! [I promise to be back on-topic if I post on this thread again.]
Traditional style, ethical blend? The tradition of tin pan alley circa 1940's, to my ear. I note that McColl (or Miller) used a jazz treatment in his original recording.
Well, it's kind of "traditional style", isn't it? I mean, it's a got that 'modal' ending 'n' all ... I hear it as much more Lancastrian than Tin Pan Alley though.
A friend of mine at folk clubs used to say, 'I'm going to sing this folk song... well, it's not a folk song yet, but it will be in a hundred years' time.' The he would launch into 'Delila' (with humorous lyrics).
I got the (?)polka Swedish Rhapsody off an ice-cream van. I don't know if the van's owner was Mr. Softee, Mr. Whippy or another. But it was not Miss Whiplash.
PS:
To answer your posting -
I think better a modern song given a trad treatment than a trad song turned into a pop/rock/disco/salsa/raga tune, generally speaking.
There are always exceptions -
you posted one of mine.
We were playing Turkey In The Straw at band practice once, just as we ended and Ice Cream truck came down the street playing Turkey in the Straw.
I like our version better.
'John O'Dreams, although often called a traditional Irish song, was written by Bill Caddick, using a tune by Tchaikovsky...
...The enchanting arpeggiated melody is based on Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 6, "The Pathetique", and is thought to have originated in either a Russian or Italian folksong...'
The actual specific song/tune I had in mind was by the Finnish metal band Nightwish, called "Last of the Wilds" - I don't think it is using traditional tunes, as the band's keyboardist/main songwriter is listed as the writer of the song - but it features fiddle, whistles and uilleann pipes (and the finnish zither, called the Kantele) and all the melodies are quite a bit like the kind of thing you would get from traditional tunes (in my opinion, at least) - except for the guitar solos, naturally ;=)
Sigh, I kinda figgered that's sort of where this was going.
I'd call that more "inspired by Irish/Scottish music" than "in the style of Scottish/Irish music". In the same manner that my limited ability to pencil sketch is "inspired by Van Gogh", rather than "in the style of Van Gogh".
To be brutally honest, there's not really anything about that tune (other than the presence of the pipes and the fact that it repeats itself quite a bit) that really makes me think of Irish/Scottish traditional music.
As for playing it in sessions, if the other people in the session like it, go for it, but otherwise I'd probably leave it aside. Fine to listen to, maybe, but not so much for playing.
I bought my granddaughter a little whistle today. It was made of wood, and more of a toy, so even when you used your fingers, the pitches were kind of vague. So she played me something, which had kind of a familiar rhythm. I said, that was nice, and she asked if I recognized it. I said no, and she informed me that it was "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds."
A non traditional song, played on a traditional instrument...and as a grandpa, I found it very acceptable!
I rather like the Nightwish track. But the tune wouldn't be up to much on a weedy wispy little whistle on its own. Still, I've heard worse "Celtic" and elevator music than this piece.
haha - thanks for the inputs everyone - nice to be on a forum/discussion site where people are polite for a change ;=)
I probably would TRY to include it in a session personally - but then again I have a very "loose" opinion about "traditional" music, if that makes sense - I basically think "if it works, then do it."
The whole thing with "at what point would it be acceptable?" came from the fact that...well...at one point ALL the "traditional" tunes were "new" so to speak...
With this piece in particular, I remember reading an interview where the writer stated he listened to Irish music and melodies to get the inspiration so *shrugs*
I personally think its very hard to really say what is and is not "in the style" of Irish music, as (from what I understand) the vast majority of all West European music is based on those sorts of melodies.
There are also several other European metal bands which incorporate "traditional" irish/scottish tunes into their songs - my own metal band is doing this with "Dawning of the Day."
Hi Barry, yes, they were all new at one point, but any of them that stuck were good tunes in the style. If you're unable to see why a tune is in the style or not I humbly suggest that you will be able to eventually, if you listen and immerse yourself enough. Enjoy.
That's true - only really been involved in the trad "scene" (for lack of a better term) for less than 1 yr, hence the discussion - trying to improve my knowledge etc
I know Thin Lizzy has lots of fans, but I vote for leaving the fuzz guitar out of anything remotely trad. It doesn't add a thing. If you must have bass guitar and lots of drums, try this for inspiration:
hey i played the last of the wildes (nightwish) in a session a few wks back and it went down like a storm. so much so i have hade to teach a few people it(bit hard when they read sheet music and i play by ear) but every one loved it. i have been after a copy of the dots for some time for friends of mine ect but i just cant get it any where you got any ideas?
I do know how to play it - similar to you I worked it out mostly by ear (a miracle for me as I'm not very good at that sort of thing).
For when I create sheet music for friends etc I use the Guitar Pro software so short of gettin yourself that, inputting the notes yourself and then printing it off I'm not sure there's anythin else you can do I'm afraid
Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Hey - I'm just wondering what people feel about tunes/songs etc where the melodies and so on are obviously in the "style" of Irish/Scottish folk (for lack of a better term)?
Would you include them in sessions?
Should the tunes/melodies be shared on resources such as websites/forums?
When (if ever) would these be considered 'acceptable' to be included etc
Things like that
For example, there is an instrumental song by a band which features Irish instruments but also all of the main melodies are strongly influenced by trad music (at least, to my ear).
What does everyone think?
# Posted on August 6th 2010 by BarryK
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Sort of, like this?
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=vNYDsjZtcQA&a=fqfTAJJuUSE&playnext_from=ML
# Posted on August 6th 2010 by Toppish
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Hey Barry. New words to old melodies is a traditional unto itself. New tunes are written by proficient musicians all the time and are also often adopted into the tradition. In fact, it's such a plague they have rules about posting your stuff on here. There's no rule in real life though. If it's good, it may last. If it ain't, it won't. Learn that tune you like from that band you mentioned and play it for your friends at your local session, see what they think.
An instrumental song is a tune. Sing a song, play a tune.
# Posted on August 6th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
What, like "Fields of Barley", say?
# Posted on August 6th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Or "Dirty Old Town"? (Written about Salford, of course.) OT, of course, but I've just looked Ewan McColl up. Some fascinatng facts about the man. I could have sworn he was a Scot born and bred, but not so, although he did have Scottish parents. And, to my amazement, he was born in 1915! [I promise to be back on-topic if I post on this thread again.]
# Posted on August 6th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Traditional style, ethical blend? The tradition of tin pan alley circa 1940's, to my ear. I note that McColl (or Miller) used a jazz treatment in his original recording.
# Posted on August 6th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Well, it's kind of "traditional style", isn't it? I mean, it's a got that 'modal' ending 'n' all ... I hear it as much more Lancastrian than Tin Pan Alley though.
# Posted on August 6th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
You haven't got a link to the Ewan McColl recording have you, oldstrings? I didn't even know he'd recorded it ...
# Posted on August 6th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Yep !
If Christy Moore can use the swan song from
Tchaikovsky 6th Symphony In his Folk Music -- Why Not...
jim,,,
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Hi Jim.Is that John O' Dreams?
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
I played the jingle from the Mr. Softee Ice Cream truck with rolls and cuts at a session and had everyone asking what tune that was!
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by wolfhul
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
It could have been an actual tune!
Where I live, the local ice cream truck plays Turkey in the Straw
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by Marklar
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Only curious in a pavement/sidewalk sort of way ...
... do you have "vans" in America?
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
A friend of mine at folk clubs used to say, 'I'm going to sing this folk song... well, it's not a folk song yet, but it will be in a hundred years' time.' The he would launch into 'Delila' (with humorous lyrics).
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by gam
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
I got the (?)polka Swedish Rhapsody off an ice-cream van. I don't know if the van's owner was Mr. Softee, Mr. Whippy or another. But it was not Miss Whiplash.
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Toppish:
What is the title of the tune they cut into at 4:20 of the DeDannen piece you posted?
Thanks.
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by Piece
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
PS:
To answer your posting -
I think better a modern song given a trad treatment than a trad song turned into a pop/rock/disco/salsa/raga tune, generally speaking.
There are always exceptions -
you posted one of mine.
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by Piece
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
We were playing Turkey In The Straw at band practice once, just as we ended and Ice Cream truck came down the street playing Turkey in the Straw.
I like our version better.
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by CleverName
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Rook:
St Jude's
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2691
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by Toppish
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Rook:
Sorry - the 2nd tune was St Judes
The third has the "love will you marry me" theme.
I'll think of it in a while...........
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by Toppish
John O'Dreams
'John O'Dreams, although often called a traditional Irish song, was written by Bill Caddick, using a tune by Tchaikovsky...
...The enchanting arpeggiated melody is based on Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 6, "The Pathetique", and is thought to have originated in either a Russian or Italian folksong...'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_O%27Dreams
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Above for the tabber and Jim.
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
"... do you have "vans" in America?"
Yes we do, but for some reason ice cream trucks are "trucks," even though they are actually vans. Never really thought about that one.
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by Marklar
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Ah. OK. Thank you Marklar.
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
type of shoe no?
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by premier
Off topic, sorry
...but possibly of interest to those curious about pokes, vans, trucks – and ice cream.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7284/comments
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by fidkid
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
In response to Toppish and SWFL Fiddler
The actual specific song/tune I had in mind was by the Finnish metal band Nightwish, called "Last of the Wilds" - I don't think it is using traditional tunes, as the band's keyboardist/main songwriter is listed as the writer of the song - but it features fiddle, whistles and uilleann pipes (and the finnish zither, called the Kantele) and all the melodies are quite a bit like the kind of thing you would get from traditional tunes (in my opinion, at least) - except for the guitar solos, naturally ;=)
This is the track;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrIz0KCq1YA
Just thought you might like to hear the specific song I was on about
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by BarryK
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Sigh, I kinda figgered that's sort of where this was going.
I'd call that more "inspired by Irish/Scottish music" than "in the style of Scottish/Irish music". In the same manner that my limited ability to pencil sketch is "inspired by Van Gogh", rather than "in the style of Van Gogh".
To be brutally honest, there's not really anything about that tune (other than the presence of the pipes and the fact that it repeats itself quite a bit) that really makes me think of Irish/Scottish traditional music.
As for playing it in sessions, if the other people in the session like it, go for it, but otherwise I'd probably leave it aside. Fine to listen to, maybe, but not so much for playing.
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by Georgi
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Hey Barry, that was fascinating, thanks. Let me go ahead and answer your specific questions in relation to this particular piece of music:
'Would you include them in sessions?'
Hell no.
'Should the tunes/melodies be shared on resources such as websites/forums?'
If people in the Finnish Folk Metal community want to do so, I think they should. The Internet is a great thing.
'When (if ever) would these be considered 'acceptable' to be included etc'
When if ever? No nay never.
'What does everyone think?'
I think I need a whiskey.
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
"If people in the Finnish Folk Metal community want to do so, I think they should...'
...on their OWN website, please.
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
I bought my granddaughter a little whistle today. It was made of wood, and more of a toy, so even when you used your fingers, the pitches were kind of vague. So she played me something, which had kind of a familiar rhythm. I said, that was nice, and she asked if I recognized it. I said no, and she informed me that it was "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds."
A non traditional song, played on a traditional instrument...and as a grandpa, I found it very acceptable!
# Posted on August 7th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Wished I had watched her video instead! That's sweet Al, congrats!
# Posted on August 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
I rather like the Nightwish track. But the tune wouldn't be up to much on a weedy wispy little whistle on its own. Still, I've heard worse "Celtic" and elevator music than this piece.
# Posted on August 8th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
haha - thanks for the inputs everyone - nice to be on a forum/discussion site where people are polite for a change ;=)
I probably would TRY to include it in a session personally - but then again I have a very "loose" opinion about "traditional" music, if that makes sense - I basically think "if it works, then do it."
The whole thing with "at what point would it be acceptable?" came from the fact that...well...at one point ALL the "traditional" tunes were "new" so to speak...
With this piece in particular, I remember reading an interview where the writer stated he listened to Irish music and melodies to get the inspiration so *shrugs*
I personally think its very hard to really say what is and is not "in the style" of Irish music, as (from what I understand) the vast majority of all West European music is based on those sorts of melodies.
There are also several other European metal bands which incorporate "traditional" irish/scottish tunes into their songs - my own metal band is doing this with "Dawning of the Day."
# Posted on August 9th 2010 by BarryK
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Hi Barry, yes, they were all new at one point, but any of them that stuck were good tunes in the style. If you're unable to see why a tune is in the style or not I humbly suggest that you will be able to eventually, if you listen and immerse yourself enough. Enjoy.
# Posted on August 9th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
Hi SWFL Fiddler
That's true - only really been involved in the trad "scene" (for lack of a better term) for less than 1 yr, hence the discussion - trying to improve my knowledge etc
Cheers
# Posted on August 9th 2010 by BarryK
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
There have been some successful fusions of hard rock and trad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TehFZ38kt6o
# Posted on August 10th 2010 by Marklar
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
I know Thin Lizzy has lots of fans, but I vote for leaving the fuzz guitar out of anything remotely trad. It doesn't add a thing. If you must have bass guitar and lots of drums, try this for inspiration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7xTgFBLUbc
# Posted on August 10th 2010 by John Galt
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
".... I note that McColl (or Miller) used a jazz treatment in his original recording...."
As heard on The Rough Guide to Scottish Folk
# Posted on August 11th 2010 by harmonic miner
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
We can't pass up this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq8u0yojABg&feature=related
# Posted on August 15th 2010 by Toppish
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
hey i played the last of the wildes (nightwish) in a session a few wks back and it went down like a storm. so much so i have hade to teach a few people it(bit hard when they read sheet music and i play by ear) but every one loved it. i have been after a copy of the dots for some time for friends of mine ect but i just cant get it any where you got any ideas?
# Posted on August 20th 2010 by folkiefreek
Re: Traditional Style, but not a "trad" song?
@ folkiefreek
I do know how to play it - similar to you I worked it out mostly by ear (a miracle for me as I'm not very good at that sort of thing).
For when I create sheet music for friends etc I use the Guitar Pro software so short of gettin yourself that, inputting the notes yourself and then printing it off I'm not sure there's anythin else you can do I'm afraid
# Posted on November 5th 2010 by BarryK