This is in continuation of the thread "Session Conflict" (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/2351). Well, some of you had voiced interest to find out how this story continues... Therefore, no complaints!
Discussion of this topic between the offended party and yours truly has been a bit delayed due to Thanksgiving and various other reasons.
I now got an e-mail from this person (possibly brought on by last Sunday's session, where a burst into a frenzied speed in the last part of the Jig of Slurs on her part resulted in a complete derailment and many angry looks in my direction since I, in all innocence, just kept playing at the previously established tempo), and I quote:
"It is difficult because most people speed up and you are slowing down and it causes the music to sound terrible. Since we are not playing at Carnegie Hall, it is not, in my opinion necessary to do this. In the guide to Irish Sessions, it says that speed basically happens and not to worry about it." (I only know the saying as "Sh.t happens" but then -- what do I know...)
I'm in the process of carefully composing my answer since I don't want to offend her any further (or let's say: not any more than necessary ), but I told her that
a) I am not slowing down but trying to keep a steady beat (I'm pretty sure that overall I still speed up to some degree)
b) that symphonies and classical music played at Carnegie Hall are full of written-in ritardandi and accelerandi and therefore the tempo is often intentionally variable, whereas ITM is basically dance music with an (ideally) absolutely steady beat
c) that she might have gotten cause and effect slightly mixed up. (My final answer will probably fill a couple of pages!)
But I wonder which "*the* guide to Irish Sessions" she could refer to, since everything I can find on the internet to that matter stresses how important a steady tempo is. I assume she refers to Barry Foy's book, "Field Guide to the Irish Music Session," which I have read a good while ago but don't own a copy of.
Could anyone who owns a copy please provide me with the relevant information that Barry Foy has on tempo? It would surprise me quite a bit if he said "don't worry about the tempo, whatever happens is fine".
Hmmm, I was going to say that any argument that has to rely on the printed page for credibility has lost already, but then I dug out my copy of Foy's book, and what he finally says about tempo is relevant here. Mind you, this isn't all of it, but the part I'm skipping is more about how fast or slow certain tunes want to be played, and the notion that even slower tempo playing can sound lively. He does say that less experienced players tend to fret over tempo, and once you know what you're doing, you don't talk about it so much.
But here's the heart of the matter:
"When it comes to session playing, the better musicians are able to accommodate most anyone's tempo and will do so in the interest of giving the music as clear and homogenous a sound as possible. That kind of uniformity is what makes a session enjoyable to play and listen to. Many a session outside Ireland falls on its face because no two participants arrive with the same approach to rhythm and tempo, and too many of them are either unwilling or unable to find common musical ground. Each player who starts a tune does so with a different feel and speed, and the end product is a fickle mishmash that makes listeners wonder why this seemingly antagonistic group bothered to come together in the first place. Moreover, the strain of shifting gears every ten minutes can take a lot of the fun out of playing. A good session is a confident session, and one that can't settle on a common tempo after a little while sounds anything but confident."
FWIW, I basically agree with this. And of course there are exceptions to all of it. Sometimes it's fun to speed up a little each time through the same tune. Sometimes a good set gains momentum and creeps up on its own. Sometimes I like going from a strathspey or hornpipe into a set of faster paced reels.
But--and this is crucial if you're out for anything more than a drunken brawl with the tunes--this works *only* if the core players are happy doing it and can pull it off without sounding like a truckload of accordions slinkying down the stairwell at the Sears Tower.
Good luck Heiki...sounds like you're gonna need it.
I don't have Barry Foy's book but I'm sure he's got to have a bit on prima-donnas who play bonehead tunes at breakneck paces without the slightest helping of soul or feeling. All the good Irish fiddlers I've ever heard have rock-steady tempos, don't play fast for fast's sake or play the Jig of Slurs (at least not in public). Maybe the next step is to tell her her fiddle would sound better if it was left in the case.
It is rude to speed up the tempo someone else has set. However, if the rest of the session is backing her up and is blaming you for *not* speeding up, it's probably time to find another session that is more compatible to the way you want to play music, and thinks the same way you do about it. Better to play alone than to play with people who don't see the music the same way you do. Believe me, I have faced this myself.
I wouldn't really back down to her, in your answering e-mail. But I shouldn't bother with two pages, either, because you're not going to change her point of view no matter what you say. A simple "I personally believe that the music is meant to go one speed and prefer not to speed up in the fourth part of the tune, even if everyone else does, so perhaps it's time I bid this session a fond farewell" is preferable than trying to change the immutable.
Everyone has their standards, and everyone has the right to stick to them, but you can't make an entire session stick to yours rather than theirs. If their standards are incompatible with yours, find another session where the standards are more compatible to yours. If there isn't one, then start one.
We - the people I play with - generally work on the basis that whoever starts a tune dictates how it goes. If the one who *led off* decides to speed up, so be it. But if someone else leaps in and changes it, that's generally considered to be ill mannered behaviour.
God save us from ever emailing one another privately to say "you spoiled that tune last night".
Touchy - don't knock the Jug of Slugs, its a popular tune where I play (but dreadful if played too fast). Did I ever tell you what we did to the lass who criticised our beer?
In Scotland, we call it the Jar of Slugs, Dave. They played it at a session two nights ago. I saw that as an opportunity to have a rest and a few swallows of my pint. However, I felt obliged to play the second time around--just in case anyone thought I didn't know it!!! )
Leaving the session over a single tune seems drastic. You can't control them. You don't have to play that tune. Stop trying to change their evil ways and just go get another pint. If anyone asks why you never play that tune, you can point out how badly they muck it up every time.
Thanks, guys! I knew I could count on you. I really appreciate the many different aspects that you bring up and the many valid points, even if some are mutually exclusive!
It's definitely right that not all the people in the session have the same standards, and I'll have to live with that. Even if I will never stop trying to improve and learning (I hope), some people are just happy where they are.
I won't have to leave the session since the other player announced that she will stop coming unless I join the race (pun intended). Personally, I wouldn't mind if she stops coming because, in my opinion (and I'm sure you know by now how biased I am), sessions are more cohesive and coherent without her being there, but I feel bad for her sake. And since I usually try to patch things up and keep things peaceful I will try my best here also (turn off the lights, and you will see my halo starting to glow!).
I don't think that unless we find a way to work together on this one, we'll ever come to a solution. I will talk to her, explain where I'm coming from and see whether we can reach a compromise of some sort (ah, the voice of Reason... or is it my mom's?) since apparently neither of us can live happily ever after with the other person's "idosyncra"z"ies". If I can convince her to watch out more for irregular speed (and maybe use a metronome at home? Dare I be that optimistic?), and I on my part just stop playing when it's obvious that subtle hints go unnoticed (and maybe discretely point out the problematic passages to her afterwards), we both (plus the session as a whole) might end up winning (if it actually works). But, darn, it will be difficult to constrain myself! I'll definitely take Glenn's advice of getting another pint, or maybe even better two (can I start already now?)!
BTW, did somebody mention Christmas, Peace on Earth and Goodwill Toward All, etc.? Well, I'm working on it!
Very depressing to read about this. Whatever happened to fun, fellowship, noncompetitive enjoyment of this wonderful music, appreciating your cohorts-in-music for being out there keeping it alive as opposed to vegging in front of the tube?
I burnt out of classical music because of just this mentality. At age 18, sure that I had sacrificed Golden Youth on the altar of classical music (e.g., feeling I had a great excuse for being even more inept than most 18-year-olds), I never wanted to touch my violin again! Realizing that I too could play Celtic music was wonderful.
At this point, I haven't sacrificed anything, Golden or otherwise, in pursuit of Celtic music. But I'm seriously saddened by the realization that most of what I saw in the classical world exists here, too. There's a rather well-known session in Berkeley that is notorious for the kinds of meanness described in this thread. I'm gearing up to see if I can get myself past that to enjoy the excellence that is also indisputably there. I recently stopped going to a different session I'd enjoyed for about a year; when several folks I was friendly with stopped going for various reasons, the cliqueishmess and egos-at-play were no longer ignore-able. I am keeping an ear cocked for another session, but at the moment, yes, playing alone is a very acceptable alternative.
Don't try to solve sh*t like this using email between disputants or via reference to printed sources. There are a lot of people who are very facile with words, and willing to write screen-after-screen of closely-argued self-justification. All that means is that those folks thrive on rhetorical jousting. It doesn't necessarily go toward resolving musical or interpersonal conflicts.
I know this doesn't provide a pro-active solution for Heike's dilemma--but I *have* seen people (not on this board) think that their facility with argument-via-words means their musical opinions are definitive. It ain't the same language.
Heike, this is a rather depressing thread. I got the impression from reading between the lines in your post that this is not just one thing that happened on one night. And that maybe you maintained a steady tempo knowing that it would cause a musical disaster (If playing the jig of Slugs was not disaster enough already...). Why not either go with the flow and speed up with the rest, or sit out the tunes they are are likely to speed up? I used to go to a session where a banjo player would always double the speed of The Merry Blacksmith after the first couple of times through - then he'd speed it up even more to 'shake everyone else off'. I thought it sounded atrocious, but all the punters in the bar thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, so I used to go along with him, as I was the only one who could keep up. It was just a bit off silliness, and it only lasted a short period of time. I didn't like it, and playing that fast usually left me feeling light-headed and my fingers cramped, but if I'd refused to play ball and derailed him buy playing resolutely on at the same tempo, I'd have come across as a right a***hole.
Music is like sex, a steady tempo isn't as important as having fun, and getting on well with the other participant(s) ....!
Good point, Mark. Good point. Me, I just stopped going to sessions like that...although, of course, even here in Denver I have more choice of sessions than it sounds like Heike does in sessions. Perhaps if I had a few more years under my belt and was a top notch player, I'd still go along with it, but right now I don't want to give myself bad habits as I'm still dealing with the ones I have naturally anyway!
Yes Zina, you're right. I'd be more worried about what went on each session if I had less to go to. But I'm not sure that speeding up the end of a set is a 'bad habit' as such, just a bit of silliness. A bad habit would be the general tendency to accellerate the tempo of a set as it goes along, and I think Heike might be confusing the latter (deporable) tendency, with the merely irritating device of lifting the tune by deliberately speeding it up at the end. I don't think the deliberate speed up thing is 'in the tradition', but then so much of what we do isn't. It's something I always associate with people who 'got into' Irish music through the Fairports/Steeleye Span/Fureys/Swarbrick etc, and I associate it with tunes like The Merry B., Jig of Slurs, Foxhunters, Athol Highlanders, and I feel it's related to the reserved sin of playing the Mason's Apron with all it's million and one variations. In short - you should be able to see it coming, and take a walk to the bar if you don't want to soil your pristine traditional copybook...
LOL -- nice little slap there at the end, Mark...personally, to me it's just trying not to fool about with this stuff until I know enough (and have paid the dues of learning all of what's gone before so I know what it is I'm f*cking up as I go) before I go diddling with the diddly, as Michael would say. My band does have a couple of sets where we speed up when we change the tune out -- largely, however, due more to an inability to play one tune well at higher speed but where the next tune comes faster better.
There's a Shetland tune called "The Anvil" where the accepted practice in lots of sessions is to play it at least 6 times and increase the speed each time around. This is supposed to separate the sheep from the goats or whatever but it's just an excuse for whoever leads the tune to show off. I can usually keep up these days but I still think it's a stupid carry on. It's a nice enough tune but it's better just played 2 or 3 times at a normal pace.
Well, before everybody goes into saying that "speeding up is a good thing" (and no, Ottery, I'm not confusing it with anything) let me tell you when this thing happens: not at the end of a set but everytime specific one- or two-bar patterns occur (in various tunes) that invite people to speed up (as the repeated notes in the 4th part of Jig of Slurs where it's tempting to play each note shorter than the previous one - a problem in any kind of music) and it is definitely not intentional but a sign of sloppy playing, technical inability or just plain not paying attention and listening to other players. The player in question does not practise (by her own admission because she finds it boring to play the same tunes all the time), but on the other hand does not learn new tunes (although she has a fairly small repertoire of Irish tunes), does not play and does not try to play in an ITM style (or any style at all, for that matter), and once said, with pride in her voice: oh, I don't listen to Irish music!
You mean all the session speeds up and then slows back down again? That would be kind of annoying. But it does sound like the pair of you wind each other up something rotten. Perhaps she's trying to get your attention? (She seems to be succeeding!)
Some very nice person from this site sent me a CD of tracks they recorded at sessions in Ireland fairly recently. Thanks, you know who you are.
I was blown away by the vitality of it. The CD has all the nuances of a group of friends engrossed in an exciting conversation. And isn't this what a session should be? It isn't supposed to be seriously perfect music (is it?), but punctuated uplifting brilliant music, none-the-less. There is chatter amongst musicians, clinking glasses, yeehaaas and stomping feet. There are sets that build from the staid to the dizzy, others that retain swing and a steady beat, and others that simply fly off from right from the outset. Everyone is into it and the pubs are rocking with the craic.
Mono tempoed music might be alright for dancing or performing (I don't know about these things), but surely in a session it isn't always necessary and it doesn't make for a very exciting conversation.
Or here am I chewing at the wrong end of the stick yet again and adding to the session conflict.
But seriously, heike, unlike you, it sounds like your nemesis is a dabbler and will eventually disappear into the ether anyway.
I was thinking the same thing actually. Why does she even come to an Irish session when she doesn't even listen to Irish music? Makes no sense to me...
Just curious--hadn't thought to ask this question previously. Does your session have any kind of leader(s)? I know some of the San Diego people and would be surprised that some of the senior players might not speak up.
Chris, you probably know players from the Field session...
The two session I usually go to don't really have that kind of regular senior player that everybody respects and follows lead. It just happened this way by people moving away or time/work issues etc. At one point, the Tuesday session (Blarney Stone) even seemed to be at risk at disappearing completely with a change in ownership of the pub and only few people coming. The official leader of that session (by default the oldest player) is one of the nicest persons I know but a bodhran/mandolin player with a) not the personality to lead and b) not the musical "weight" to take on the role. The other sessions is consist of only 5 core players (of which she is one). For me personally, this situation has been extremely helpful because it has forced me to get over my self-consciousness, take initiative, start tunes etc. But I definitely lack the kind of drive and experience that distinguishes a real leader who can bring people together (musically and otherwise) when there's a larger group.
>Why does she even come to an Irish session when she doesn't even listen to Irish music? Makes no sense to me...
Andee, I really have no idea. I can only assume that she think's there's nothing to learn for her out there since she's been playing "Irish music" (I assume from sheet music) for so long...
I don't think she will lose interest in the near future since she's been coming for a long time, definitely for over a year. So we're stuck with each other and have to make the best of it!
Yeah, that's how I killed my old mechanical metronome... I kept winding it up since this darn thing lost its momentum all the time! But I couldn't yet find the button to wind up my computer metronome!
Session conflict, Part 2
Session conflict, Part 2
This is in continuation of the thread "Session Conflict" (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/2351). Well, some of you had voiced interest to find out how this story continues... Therefore, no complaints!
Discussion of this topic between the offended party and yours truly has been a bit delayed due to Thanksgiving and various other reasons.
I now got an e-mail from this person (possibly brought on by last Sunday's session, where a burst into a frenzied speed in the last part of the Jig of Slurs on her part resulted in a complete derailment and many angry looks in my direction since I, in all innocence, just kept playing at the previously established tempo), and I quote:
"It is difficult because most people speed up and you are slowing down and it causes the music to sound terrible. Since we are not playing at Carnegie Hall, it is not, in my opinion necessary to do this. In the guide to Irish Sessions, it says that speed basically happens and not to worry about it." (I only know the saying as "Sh.t happens" but then -- what do I know...)
I'm in the process of carefully composing my answer since I don't want to offend her any further (or let's say: not any more than necessary
), but I told her that
a) I am not slowing down but trying to keep a steady beat (I'm pretty sure that overall I still speed up to some degree)
b) that symphonies and classical music played at Carnegie Hall are full of written-in ritardandi and accelerandi and therefore the tempo is often intentionally variable, whereas ITM is basically dance music with an (ideally) absolutely steady beat
c) that she might have gotten cause and effect slightly mixed up. (My final answer will probably fill a couple of pages!)
But I wonder which "*the* guide to Irish Sessions" she could refer to, since everything I can find on the internet to that matter stresses how important a steady tempo is. I assume she refers to Barry Foy's book, "Field Guide to the Irish Music Session," which I have read a good while ago but don't own a copy of.
Could anyone who owns a copy please provide me with the relevant information that Barry Foy has on tempo? It would surprise me quite a bit if he said "don't worry about the tempo, whatever happens is fine".
Thanks!!!
# Posted on December 12th 2003 by heike
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
I thought this hobby was meant to be fun.
It is so hard to get a bunch of friends who work together.
Also try and analyse if the traffic was all coming in the one way..
# Posted on December 12th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Hmmm, I was going to say that any argument that has to rely on the printed page for credibility has lost already, but then I dug out my copy of Foy's book, and what he finally says about tempo is relevant here. Mind you, this isn't all of it, but the part I'm skipping is more about how fast or slow certain tunes want to be played, and the notion that even slower tempo playing can sound lively. He does say that less experienced players tend to fret over tempo, and once you know what you're doing, you don't talk about it so much.
But here's the heart of the matter:
"When it comes to session playing, the better musicians are able to accommodate most anyone's tempo and will do so in the interest of giving the music as clear and homogenous a sound as possible. That kind of uniformity is what makes a session enjoyable to play and listen to. Many a session outside Ireland falls on its face because no two participants arrive with the same approach to rhythm and tempo, and too many of them are either unwilling or unable to find common musical ground. Each player who starts a tune does so with a different feel and speed, and the end product is a fickle mishmash that makes listeners wonder why this seemingly antagonistic group bothered to come together in the first place. Moreover, the strain of shifting gears every ten minutes can take a lot of the fun out of playing. A good session is a confident session, and one that can't settle on a common tempo after a little while sounds anything but confident."
FWIW, I basically agree with this. And of course there are exceptions to all of it. Sometimes it's fun to speed up a little each time through the same tune. Sometimes a good set gains momentum and creeps up on its own. Sometimes I like going from a strathspey or hornpipe into a set of faster paced reels.
But--and this is crucial if you're out for anything more than a drunken brawl with the tunes--this works *only* if the core players are happy doing it and can pull it off without sounding like a truckload of accordions slinkying down the stairwell at the Sears Tower.
Good luck Heiki...sounds like you're gonna need it.
# Posted on December 12th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
I don't have Barry Foy's book but I'm sure he's got to have a bit on prima-donnas who play bonehead tunes at breakneck paces without the slightest helping of soul or feeling. All the good Irish fiddlers I've ever heard have rock-steady tempos, don't play fast for fast's sake or play the Jig of Slurs (at least not in public). Maybe the next step is to tell her her fiddle would sound better if it was left in the case.
# Posted on December 12th 2003 by Mad Baloney
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
It is rude to speed up the tempo someone else has set. However, if the rest of the session is backing her up and is blaming you for *not* speeding up, it's probably time to find another session that is more compatible to the way you want to play music, and thinks the same way you do about it. Better to play alone than to play with people who don't see the music the same way you do. Believe me, I have faced this myself.
I wouldn't really back down to her, in your answering e-mail. But I shouldn't bother with two pages, either, because you're not going to change her point of view no matter what you say. A simple "I personally believe that the music is meant to go one speed and prefer not to speed up in the fourth part of the tune, even if everyone else does, so perhaps it's time I bid this session a fond farewell" is preferable than trying to change the immutable.
Everyone has their standards, and everyone has the right to stick to them, but you can't make an entire session stick to yours rather than theirs. If their standards are incompatible with yours, find another session where the standards are more compatible to yours. If there isn't one, then start one.
# Posted on December 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
We - the people I play with - generally work on the basis that whoever starts a tune dictates how it goes. If the one who *led off* decides to speed up, so be it. But if someone else leaps in and changes it, that's generally considered to be ill mannered behaviour.
God save us from ever emailing one another privately to say "you spoiled that tune last night".
Touchy - don't knock the Jug of Slugs, its a popular tune where I play (but dreadful if played too fast). Did I ever tell you what we did to the lass who criticised our beer?
;o) Dave
# Posted on December 12th 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
In Scotland, we call it the Jar of Slugs, Dave. They played it at a session two nights ago. I saw that as an opportunity to have a rest and a few swallows of my pint. However, I felt obliged to play the second time around--just in case anyone thought I didn't know it!!!
)
John
# Posted on December 12th 2003 by Johannes J
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Leaving the session over a single tune seems drastic. You can't control them. You don't have to play that tune. Stop trying to change their evil ways and just go get another pint. If anyone asks why you never play that tune, you can point out how badly they muck it up every time.
# Posted on December 13th 2003 by glenn
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Thanks, guys! I knew I could count on you. I really appreciate the many different aspects that you bring up and the many valid points, even if some are mutually exclusive!
It's definitely right that not all the people in the session have the same standards, and I'll have to live with that. Even if I will never stop trying to improve and learning (I hope), some people are just happy where they are.
I won't have to leave the session since the other player announced that she will stop coming unless I join the race (pun intended). Personally, I wouldn't mind if she stops coming because, in my opinion (and I'm sure you know by now how biased I am), sessions are more cohesive and coherent without her being there, but I feel bad for her sake. And since I usually try to patch things up and keep things peaceful I will try my best here also (turn off the lights, and you will see my halo starting to glow!).
I don't think that unless we find a way to work together on this one, we'll ever come to a solution. I will talk to her, explain where I'm coming from and see whether we can reach a compromise of some sort (ah, the voice of Reason... or is it my mom's?) since apparently neither of us can live happily ever after with the other person's "idosyncra"z"ies". If I can convince her to watch out more for irregular speed (and maybe use a metronome at home? Dare I be that optimistic?), and I on my part just stop playing when it's obvious that subtle hints go unnoticed (and maybe discretely point out the problematic passages to her afterwards), we both (plus the session as a whole) might end up winning (if it actually works). But, darn, it will be difficult to constrain myself! I'll definitely take Glenn's advice of getting another pint, or maybe even better two (can I start already now?)!
BTW, did somebody mention Christmas, Peace on Earth and Goodwill Toward All, etc.? Well, I'm working on it!
# Posted on December 13th 2003 by heike
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Greetings:
Very depressing to read about this. Whatever happened to fun, fellowship, noncompetitive enjoyment of this wonderful music, appreciating your cohorts-in-music for being out there keeping it alive as opposed to vegging in front of the tube?
I burnt out of classical music because of just this mentality. At age 18, sure that I had sacrificed Golden Youth on the altar of classical music (e.g., feeling I had a great excuse for being even more inept than most 18-year-olds), I never wanted to touch my violin again! Realizing that I too could play Celtic music was wonderful.
At this point, I haven't sacrificed anything, Golden or otherwise, in pursuit of Celtic music. But I'm seriously saddened by the realization that most of what I saw in the classical world exists here, too. There's a rather well-known session in Berkeley that is notorious for the kinds of meanness described in this thread. I'm gearing up to see if I can get myself past that to enjoy the excellence that is also indisputably there. I recently stopped going to a different session I'd enjoyed for about a year; when several folks I was friendly with stopped going for various reasons, the cliqueishmess and egos-at-play were no longer ignore-able. I am keeping an ear cocked for another session, but at the moment, yes, playing alone is a very acceptable alternative.
(Sigh.)
Solstice blessings, Cathryn Bauer
# Posted on December 13th 2003 by cathrynb
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Hey, 2 cents?
Don't try to solve sh*t like this using email between disputants or via reference to printed sources. There are a lot of people who are very facile with words, and willing to write screen-after-screen of closely-argued self-justification. All that means is that those folks thrive on rhetorical jousting. It doesn't necessarily go toward resolving musical or interpersonal conflicts.
I know this doesn't provide a pro-active solution for Heike's dilemma--but I *have* seen people (not on this board) think that their facility with argument-via-words means their musical opinions are definitive. It ain't the same language.
chris smith
# Posted on December 13th 2003 by coyotebanjo
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Heike, this is a rather depressing thread. I got the impression from reading between the lines in your post that this is not just one thing that happened on one night. And that maybe you maintained a steady tempo knowing that it would cause a musical disaster (If playing the jig of Slugs was not disaster enough already...). Why not either go with the flow and speed up with the rest, or sit out the tunes they are are likely to speed up? I used to go to a session where a banjo player would always double the speed of The Merry Blacksmith after the first couple of times through - then he'd speed it up even more to 'shake everyone else off'. I thought it sounded atrocious, but all the punters in the bar thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, so I used to go along with him, as I was the only one who could keep up. It was just a bit off silliness, and it only lasted a short period of time. I didn't like it, and playing that fast usually left me feeling light-headed and my fingers cramped, but if I'd refused to play ball and derailed him buy playing resolutely on at the same tempo, I'd have come across as a right a***hole.
Music is like sex, a steady tempo isn't as important as having fun, and getting on well with the other participant(s) ....!
# Posted on December 14th 2003 by Ottery
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Good point, Mark. Good point. Me, I just stopped going to sessions like that...although, of course, even here in Denver I have more choice of sessions than it sounds like Heike does in sessions. Perhaps if I had a few more years under my belt and was a top notch player, I'd still go along with it, but right now I don't want to give myself bad habits as I'm still dealing with the ones I have naturally anyway!
# Posted on December 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Yes Zina, you're right. I'd be more worried about what went on each session if I had less to go to. But I'm not sure that speeding up the end of a set is a 'bad habit' as such, just a bit of silliness. A bad habit would be the general tendency to accellerate the tempo of a set as it goes along, and I think Heike might be confusing the latter (deporable) tendency, with the merely irritating device of lifting the tune by deliberately speeding it up at the end. I don't think the deliberate speed up thing is 'in the tradition', but then so much of what we do isn't. It's something I always associate with people who 'got into' Irish music through the Fairports/Steeleye Span/Fureys/Swarbrick etc, and I associate it with tunes like The Merry B., Jig of Slurs, Foxhunters, Athol Highlanders, and I feel it's related to the reserved sin of playing the Mason's Apron with all it's million and one variations. In short - you should be able to see it coming, and take a walk to the bar if you don't want to soil your pristine traditional copybook...
# Posted on December 14th 2003 by Ottery
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
LOL -- nice little slap there at the end, Mark...personally, to me it's just trying not to fool about with this stuff until I know enough (and have paid the dues of learning all of what's gone before so I know what it is I'm f*cking up as I go) before I go diddling with the diddly, as Michael would say. My band does have a couple of sets where we speed up when we change the tune out -- largely, however, due more to an inability to play one tune well at higher speed but where the next tune comes faster better.
# Posted on December 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
There's a Shetland tune called "The Anvil" where the accepted practice in lots of sessions is to play it at least 6 times and increase the speed each time around. This is supposed to separate the sheep from the goats or whatever but it's just an excuse for whoever leads the tune to show off. I can usually keep up these days but I still think it's a stupid carry on. It's a nice enough tune but it's better just played 2 or 3 times at a normal pace.
John
# Posted on December 14th 2003 by Johannes J
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Well, before everybody goes into saying that "speeding up is a good thing" (and no, Ottery, I'm not confusing it with anything) let me tell you when this thing happens: not at the end of a set but everytime specific one- or two-bar patterns occur (in various tunes) that invite people to speed up (as the repeated notes in the 4th part of Jig of Slurs where it's tempting to play each note shorter than the previous one - a problem in any kind of music) and it is definitely not intentional but a sign of sloppy playing, technical inability or just plain not paying attention and listening to other players. The player in question does not practise (by her own admission because she finds it boring to play the same tunes all the time), but on the other hand does not learn new tunes (although she has a fairly small repertoire of Irish tunes), does not play and does not try to play in an ITM style (or any style at all, for that matter), and once said, with pride in her voice: oh, I don't listen to Irish music!
'nuff said.
# Posted on December 14th 2003 by heike
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
You mean all the session speeds up and then slows back down again? That would be kind of annoying. But it does sound like the pair of you wind each other up something rotten. Perhaps she's trying to get your attention? (She seems to be succeeding!)
# Posted on December 14th 2003 by Ottery
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Some very nice person from this site sent me a CD of tracks they recorded at sessions in Ireland fairly recently. Thanks, you know who you are.
I was blown away by the vitality of it. The CD has all the nuances of a group of friends engrossed in an exciting conversation. And isn't this what a session should be? It isn't supposed to be seriously perfect music (is it?), but punctuated uplifting brilliant music, none-the-less. There is chatter amongst musicians, clinking glasses, yeehaaas and stomping feet. There are sets that build from the staid to the dizzy, others that retain swing and a steady beat, and others that simply fly off from right from the outset. Everyone is into it and the pubs are rocking with the craic.
Mono tempoed music might be alright for dancing or performing (I don't know about these things), but surely in a session it isn't always necessary and it doesn't make for a very exciting conversation.
Or here am I chewing at the wrong end of the stick yet again and adding to the session conflict.
But seriously, heike, unlike you, it sounds like your nemesis is a dabbler and will eventually disappear into the ether anyway.
# Posted on December 14th 2003 by Clear Drops
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Jan, you are probably right, hopefully this person will lose interest when the conflict defuses!
# Posted on December 14th 2003 by Aine Ni Scully
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Yes, if she says she doesn't listen to Irish music, she's not really likely to be interested enough to stay the course.
# Posted on December 14th 2003 by Ottery
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
I was thinking the same thing actually. Why does she even come to an Irish session when she doesn't even listen to Irish music? Makes no sense to me...
# Posted on December 15th 2003 by Andee
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Just curious--hadn't thought to ask this question previously. Does your session have any kind of leader(s)? I know some of the San Diego people and would be surprised that some of the senior players might not speak up.
chris smith
# Posted on December 15th 2003 by coyotebanjo
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Chris, you probably know players from the Field session...
The two session I usually go to don't really have that kind of regular senior player that everybody respects and follows lead. It just happened this way by people moving away or time/work issues etc. At one point, the Tuesday session (Blarney Stone) even seemed to be at risk at disappearing completely with a change in ownership of the pub and only few people coming. The official leader of that session (by default the oldest player) is one of the nicest persons I know but a bodhran/mandolin player with a) not the personality to lead and b) not the musical "weight" to take on the role. The other sessions is consist of only 5 core players (of which she is one). For me personally, this situation has been extremely helpful because it has forced me to get over my self-consciousness, take initiative, start tunes etc. But I definitely lack the kind of drive and experience that distinguishes a real leader who can bring people together (musically and otherwise) when there's a larger group.
>Why does she even come to an Irish session when she doesn't even listen to Irish music? Makes no sense to me...
Andee, I really have no idea. I can only assume that she think's there's nothing to learn for her out there since she's been playing "Irish music" (I assume from sheet music) for so long...
I don't think she will lose interest in the near future since she's been coming for a long time, definitely for over a year. So we're stuck with each other and have to make the best of it!
# Posted on December 15th 2003 by heike
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Heike, ask her whether she has noticed that metronomes invariably "slow the music down" too.
(I haven't found one that can keep a steady beat yet. Hehe.)
# Posted on December 15th 2003 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Session conflict, Part 2
Yeah, that's how I killed my old mechanical metronome... I kept winding it up since this darn thing lost its momentum all the time! But I couldn't yet find the button to wind up my computer metronome!
# Posted on December 15th 2003 by heike