Is clawhammer/old timey style banjo loud enough to accompany itm? I really like the feel of it bettter than bluegrass with finger picks. also if anyone know of a decent teacher in the dublin area i'd appreciate it?
I have never heard good five-string banjo accompaniment for Irish trad. It could be done, possibly, but I've not heard it. The people I know who play five string banjo also play guitar and bouzouki/octave mandolin and accompany tunes on those. Maybe consider learning the bouzouki? If the banjo is your passion, give it a go, but it will be an uphill battle. I don't think the instrument readily lends itself to the kind of accompaniment that works with Irish music and if you're wanting to play in sessions, you'll receive a skeptical reception if you wander into them with a five-string banjo.
As with everything it depends on the player. Ptarmigan posted a link, a while back, to a group that played tunes with a banjo backing. It wasn't clawhammer but it sounded great. So your job is to .......figure it out! Do it! Make it work!
The rhythms of old time/clawhammer are very different from the rhythms in ITM. In my opinion superimposing that feel on Irish music sucks the life out of it. It's a ruinous practice and i would think long and hard about doing it. It makes everything sound like a Ken Burns movie.
To answer your question, yes, it is loud enough; but as already mentioned, you would have to be very careful about what and how you play if you wish to 'accompany itm' as you put it.
Are you talking about accompaniment in the sense of a rhythm part for backing tunes? In that case, I’d say forget the bluegrass approach. If you are highly skilled at three-finger banjo, it’s possible to play the melody in a way that sounds alright to some people, but plucking banjo chords on the backbeat might get you tarred and feathered.
I think there are some limited possibilities with a clawhammer approach, but what you wind up with is likely to sound more like a fusion of two worlds rather than a complement to Irish trad. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not likely to be welcome at most Irish sessions.
I’ve experimented just a bit with clawhammer accompaniment to Irish tunes and found it not as satisfying as I had expected. I’ve also clawhammered the melody on a few tunes. I think there are possibilities in that direction, but I doubt if I’ll pursue it any further.
It may have been good enough for Mr. Burke 30+ years ago, but I'm not so star struck as to see it as anything other than a lapse in his normally superb taste.
Go ahead and plunk away if you must, just don't expect the carpet at an Irish session of any decent standard.
Please do not attempt to accompany Irish session music on the banjo, 5-string or otherwise. Yes - do learn the tunes and pick along with the melody - back backing? No. Too loud. Too disruptive. Bad idea. Sorry to be so harsh, but I recently sat near a fellow who tried to strum his way through a session on a banjo.
Now, if you are talking bum-ditty...NO. If you are talking about single-note clawhammer, without the brush, it's possible. You will want to let up on the thumb a LOT and work out the hammers and pull-offs so they fit the medium more, but it's possible.
You better be VERY comfortable with the music though, or you will make a complete mess of it. I'd not recommend it in general, but it could be made to work if you put in the effort.
There was also a recording by Perlman, Bob Carlin and one or two others. I think it was called Melodic Clawhammer Banjo. Well-executed stuff, but it left me wondering why they didn't just learn tenor banjo.
I would get a tenor banjo and learn to flat pick the melodies. In my experience, 5-string banjos, clawhammer technique, just does not work rhythmically at all.
Maybe I should stick to the auld geetar in public. I had started to use limited 5 string to accompany singing at our session, I think it was this clip that made me think about the rhythmic possiblilties of 5 string and maybe i got a bit carried away. .
Clawhammer banjo in the old-time style of tradiaitional American music employs a very distinctive device: the so-called 'bum-diddy, bum-diddy' frailing style.
This works fine for 4/4, but much of the good Irish traditional music is in 6/8, 9/8, etc. When in this situation you could consider using the 'melodic' clawhammer style of Ken Perlman, Adam Hurt, and others. Or you might be able to find some other creative approach, but it probably wouldn't sound like clawhammer.
If you are playing clawhammer, are you using gDGBD tuning anyway? If you go to Double C ( gCGCD ) and capo 2 ( 5th string capo 7, assuming you have spikes or just retune to A if not ) then the 4th, 3rd and 1st strings give you DAE - the same as a tenor banjo - and you can flatpick the melody like that for any arrangement that doesn't require the low G string.
For arrangements that do, well you have to go to the bar sometime..
It also has the bonus that the 2nd string ( D ) means you can avoid the quick change between the 2nd and 5th frets which is a bit of a stretch on the tenor, so "swings and roundabouts".
clawhammer or bluegrass
clawhammer or bluegrass
Is clawhammer/old timey style banjo loud enough to accompany itm? I really like the feel of it bettter than bluegrass with finger picks. also if anyone know of a decent teacher in the dublin area i'd appreciate it?
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by thebenns
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
I have never heard good five-string banjo accompaniment for Irish trad. It could be done, possibly, but I've not heard it. The people I know who play five string banjo also play guitar and bouzouki/octave mandolin and accompany tunes on those. Maybe consider learning the bouzouki? If the banjo is your passion, give it a go, but it will be an uphill battle. I don't think the instrument readily lends itself to the kind of accompaniment that works with Irish music and if you're wanting to play in sessions, you'll receive a skeptical reception if you wander into them with a five-string banjo.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
How about giving tenor ago and learning the melody of the tunes, you'll probably end up wanting to do that anyway and you'll likely enjoy it.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by camwebby
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
leon hunt does the fingerpick technique well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTbtJJz-VIE
it can sound good done properly
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by banjitar
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
i like this guy on YouTube,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95dEKH1ISbA
his 5 string clawhammer style is pretty cool, but best as a solo it would be hard to fit in a session.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by I ♥ Dow
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
As with everything it depends on the player. Ptarmigan posted a link, a while back, to a group that played tunes with a banjo backing. It wasn't clawhammer but it sounded great. So your job is to .......figure it out! Do it! Make it work!
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by shanty
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
The rhythms of old time/clawhammer are very different from the rhythms in ITM. In my opinion superimposing that feel on Irish music sucks the life out of it. It's a ruinous practice and i would think long and hard about doing it. It makes everything sound like a Ken Burns movie.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by Steve L
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
I play clawhammer banjo, but not for ITM. To my ears, it's not a good fit, and I haven't heard anything done by others that would change my mind.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by crookedtune
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
To answer your question, yes, it is loud enough; but as already mentioned, you would have to be very careful about what and how you play if you wish to 'accompany itm' as you put it.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by gam
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Are you talking about accompaniment in the sense of a rhythm part for backing tunes? In that case, I’d say forget the bluegrass approach. If you are highly skilled at three-finger banjo, it’s possible to play the melody in a way that sounds alright to some people, but plucking banjo chords on the backbeat might get you tarred and feathered.
I think there are some limited possibilities with a clawhammer approach, but what you wind up with is likely to sound more like a fusion of two worlds rather than a complement to Irish trad. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not likely to be welcome at most Irish sessions.
I’ve experimented just a bit with clawhammer accompaniment to Irish tunes and found it not as satisfying as I had expected. I’ve also clawhammered the melody on a few tunes. I think there are possibilities in that direction, but I doubt if I’ll pursue it any further.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by Bob himself
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Ah, the horror of the backbeat. I just got a vision of bluegrass mando chops from Bob's post. Unsettling.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
This part I mean, quite funny!
"...plucking banjo chords on the backbeat might get you tarred and feathered..."
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Better to just trade in the 5 string and get a tenor banjo, or forget about banjo altogether and go get a flute or an accordion.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Good enough for Kevin Burke!
Listen to track # 9 here:
http://www.amazon.com/Sweeneys-Dream-Kevin-Burke/dp/B0000584VP
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by grego
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Great, grego, I was just about to mention Kevin Burke's use of banjo. Also check out Mark Roberts' clawhammer work with Touchstone.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by primrose lass
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
It may have been good enough for Mr. Burke 30+ years ago, but I'm not so star struck as to see it as anything other than a lapse in his normally superb taste.
Go ahead and plunk away if you must, just don't expect the carpet at an Irish session of any decent standard.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
the *red* carpet
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Sounds like he (Kevin) hasn't done it again in 37 years though....
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by grego
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Crossposted with Seosamh...
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by grego
Re: clawgrass or bluehammer
I'm in favor or cross-genre exploration, but a session may not be the best place for a fusion experiment. It could lead to fission.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by Bob himself
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Please do not attempt to accompany Irish session music on the banjo, 5-string or otherwise. Yes - do learn the tunes and pick along with the melody - back backing? No. Too loud. Too disruptive. Bad idea. Sorry to be so harsh, but I recently sat near a fellow who tried to strum his way through a session on a banjo.
He's dead now.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Ah, now there's the best reason not to do it: health.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Now, if you are talking bum-ditty...NO. If you are talking about single-note clawhammer, without the brush, it's possible. You will want to let up on the thumb a LOT and work out the hammers and pull-offs so they fit the medium more, but it's possible.
You better be VERY comfortable with the music though, or you will make a complete mess of it. I'd not recommend it in general, but it could be made to work if you put in the effort.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by Ashkettle
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Yep. You also need pretty good mastery of drop-thumb technique to play this stuff convincingly.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by Bob himself
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
And if you get it wrong near Jusa, you'll find that it is rather difficult to pick your fingers up off the floor.
# Posted on July 21st 2010 by gam
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
I assure you gam, no court in the land would have convicted me. It was self-defense.
# Posted on July 22nd 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Ken Perlman did a book on Irish music on clawhammer banjo some years ago. He is an exceptional playerhttp://www.kenperlman.com/
# Posted on July 22nd 2010 by Boots MacAllen
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Whoops clumsy mouse move http://www.kenperlman.com/
# Posted on July 22nd 2010 by Boots MacAllen
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
There was also a recording by Perlman, Bob Carlin and one or two others. I think it was called Melodic Clawhammer Banjo. Well-executed stuff, but it left me wondering why they didn't just learn tenor banjo.
# Posted on July 22nd 2010 by Bob himself
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
I would get a tenor banjo and learn to flat pick the melodies. In my experience, 5-string banjos, clawhammer technique, just does not work rhythmically at all.
# Posted on July 22nd 2010 by Celtic Guitar
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Thanks for all the advice/warnings/threats
Maybe I should stick to the auld geetar in public. I had started to use limited 5 string to accompany singing at our session, I think it was this clip that made me think about the rhythmic possiblilties of 5 string and maybe i got a bit carried away. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq-J97M5dl0
I'd still be keen on getting a contact for clawhammer teacher in dublin area-northside preferably if anyone knows of one.
# Posted on July 22nd 2010 by thebenns
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
Clawhammer banjo in the old-time style of tradiaitional American music employs a very distinctive device: the so-called 'bum-diddy, bum-diddy' frailing style.
This works fine for 4/4, but much of the good Irish traditional music is in 6/8, 9/8, etc. When in this situation you could consider using the 'melodic' clawhammer style of Ken Perlman, Adam Hurt, and others. Or you might be able to find some other creative approach, but it probably wouldn't sound like clawhammer.
# Posted on July 23rd 2010 by dfost
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
It works fine for 4/4 if you don't care if it sounds like Irish music.
# Posted on July 23rd 2010 by Steve L
Re: clawhammer or bluegrass
If you are playing clawhammer, are you using gDGBD tuning anyway? If you go to Double C ( gCGCD ) and capo 2 ( 5th string capo 7, assuming you have spikes or just retune to A if not ) then the 4th, 3rd and 1st strings give you DAE - the same as a tenor banjo - and you can flatpick the melody like that for any arrangement that doesn't require the low G string.
For arrangements that do, well you have to go to the bar sometime..
It also has the bonus that the 2nd string ( D ) means you can avoid the quick change between the 2nd and 5th frets which is a bit of a stretch on the tenor, so "swings and roundabouts".
# Posted on February 4th 2012 by oilman