Delrin flutes can sound fine, and are worry free. I have one for a travel flute. There's an argument for trying out a flute in delrin first, before putting more money into a wooden flute. That way you won't have a big investment in a flute before you really know what you are looking for.
Some will argue that wooden flutes sound different. Perhaps they do, but in the beginning, the little nuances won't be your main concern.
I think the acoustics are different. Wood ages and gains character over time. To me, I would always choose wood over delrin. But, delrin isn't bad at all. I just perfer wood over it. It is a great thing if you don't want to mess with oiling or anything like that. It is pretty durable, and like Hugh said, it is great for a travel fltue if you are worried about your wooden one.
I don't know that there's any reason for it, but I feel like wood instruments sound better than delrin. I've never played a delrin and wooden flute by the same maker to compare though.
You might get hold of Dave Copley and see what he has to say about his flutes in the two materials.
Physicists says it makes no different what the flute is made of.
But you hear about top classical fluters trying out different combinations
of platinum, iridium, gold and silver - spending huge amounts.
There must be something in it that the scientists don't know about
yet.
If I had to guess, I'd start with looking at whether the techniques for shaping the materials have an effect - the material itself isn't vibrating, it's just containing the air that vibrates, but the presence or absence of sharp corners, to pick one thing at random, could make a huge difference to the way the air moves in the instrument. Bore of the instrument would make a difference, and presumably thickness of the walls (affects depth of the finger holes).
Different woods and materials definitely lead to different sounds. When I used to be into making flutes/whistles, you could really tell the difference. Some woods would make it sound airy, while others would give it a good solid honk. Just look and feel the difference between blackwood and boxwood. Even though they are the exact same size and shape, the weight is a lot different. Some woods are dense and when the sound vibrations hit them, they bounce off the walls of the inside flute and become louder. Others are more absorbant and absorb some of those vibrations.
Some woods are horrible for making woodwinds, and some are awesome.
I think a lot of people are making metal-lined flutes which, I think, make it sound a lot louder and stronger(I don't know if that is the best word choice) tone; this is all due to the fact that metal doesnt absorb any sound. So, if you get a metal-lined flute, whether delrin or wood, I don't think there will be much difference in sound.
"Physicists says it makes no different what the flute is made of.
But you hear about top classical fluters trying out different combinations of platinum, iridium, gold and silver - spending huge amounts. There must be something in it that the scientists don't know about yet."
No, the science has this one pretty squarely on the mat. But there's nothing unusual about the public not listening to independent science; preferring to be swayed instead by vested interests. Look at the global warming debate, the growing "alternative medicine" industry, the belief in supernatural beings, etc. Why believe a boring scientist when you can believe someone making a lot of money out of you instead?
You'll find a convenient summary of a very good study into the topic at http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/FluteTone-Intro.htm If you want to go further, the link to the study is there too. Essentially the study compared seven flutes by one maker, in a range of exotic and plain metals. When one player played all the flutes, neither a listening panel nor scientific analysis of the sound could differentiate them. But when seven players played any one of them, both the listeners and the measuring systems had no trouble differentiating the players. The study has sound grabs, so you can audition them too. As you will see, metals make no audible difference. Well, up to a point -- mercury and lead would not be my first choices!
But wood versus plastic is a much bigger difference than between metals. Remembering that the flute body is just a container for the vibrating air, the question becomes how good a container does the plastic or wood make? All other things being equal, the plastic is a more efficient container -- smoother, denser, less porous. It's not necessarily the case however that we're just looking for efficiency -- I think there may be some textual differences imparted by wood that we enjoy. Interesting that our favourite flute woods are all up at the plastic end of the density spectrum though. So we not prepared to stray very far from the top efficiency in search of texture.
I'd echo ElaineT's suggestion that you talk to Dave about any differences he detects in the materials he uses. He's a demn'd fine fellow and won't lead you astray.
it's hard to say. last time i saw dave, he happened to have a delrin flute of his with him. they're definitely great flutes! i always assumed they were not as good as his wooden flutes, because they cost less, but he definitely puts the same care and craftsmanship into all his flutes.
i'd say at this point in your playing, the only considerations are how much do you want to pay and how long do you want to wait. it's fun to own a wooden flute, but it's convenient to have a delrin flute. i have a delrin flute by another maker (dave actually made the slide, though), which cost me $600. i think it plays better than flutes i have played that cost $2,000. but then again my day to day flute is a silver flute with a wooden headjoint dave made, so i guess your question remains unanswered! :P
as far as reedy sound goes, my delrin flute is definitely reedier sounding than my wooden flute, and my wooden flute is from 1864. tom doorely did several albums with a delrin flute by another maker! you'd have never known it wasn't a wooden flute in his hands, honking away....
hi edorian .. you didn't say if you were a beginner or not. i bought a Rob Forbes delrin flute for my daughter as a first flute in 2009 - she was already progressing well on the whistle - and is progressing well with the flute. thing was it was handmade and delivered to australia from us for approx. AU$450. I play fiddle and it sounds good to my ear. Love wood also but depends on how rich you are and maybe if you are just starting out. good luck.
Yes,I'm brand new to the flute coming from the string world of guitar and waldzither. I know very little about delrin but I've heard good things about Copley and also Forbs, I don't know which one I'll settle on.
I'm a long-time Irish wood fluteplayer but I've dabbled in Boehm flute a bit, for example I played Boehm flute for a while with our church group etc.
At the annual national covention of the National Flute Society there was a booth by a guy who makes high-end very expensive wood headjoints for Boehm flutes. He had them in several woods: brazilian rosewood, cocobolo, african blackwood, boxwood. He had several in each wood.
I spent quite a bit of time playing all of these and each wood had clearly different tonal properties. If I would have sorted the headjoints into little groups based on how they played, blindfolded, when I took the blindfold off I would have seen that I had sorted them by wood type. I think that any fluteplayer would have easily done the same.
On the other hand, another booth had silver headjoints with various embouchure cuts and these played more differently from each other than all those wood headjoints (all having the same embouchure cut) did.
About delrin flutes, my issue with them is that they're heavy.
When considering that "reedy" sound you want, don't forget that not only does the material vibrate to contribute to the sound, but the bore and the embrasure cute are also crucial. While some mega powered players with embrasures of "steel" can probably produce close to any sound they like on any given flute (generalization to make a point), I have found that the sound I am wanting really needs to have the inner bore that helps... for example, a more open tone on a Pratton model than on a Rudal and Rose... both lovely, but very different. Open/woody/reedy vs more closed/focused/sweet. My ears are really sensitive to harmonics, and I can "feel" the difference in the vibration... and very much the sound... given my same embrasure, wind, playing level (not great yet) etc. Also, my flutemaker changed the embrasure cut for me when I couldn't get the sound out that I wanted (after months of working), and it made a huge difference. So, my recommendation is for you to look more into type and embrasure cut... and seriously, just buy the flute that you fall in love with. None of the rest matters. (And if you don't want to mess with oiling, cracking, humidity and finnikiness... get the delrin! Forbes flutes were very nice sounding to me!) But I think wood is where it's at! Good luck! : )
Flute Question
Flute Question
How much of a difference in sound quality is there between a delrin and a black wood Copley-should I save for the black wood?-Thanks
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by edorian
Re: Flute Question
Delrin flutes can sound fine, and are worry free. I have one for a travel flute. There's an argument for trying out a flute in delrin first, before putting more money into a wooden flute. That way you won't have a big investment in a flute before you really know what you are looking for.
Some will argue that wooden flutes sound different. Perhaps they do, but in the beginning, the little nuances won't be your main concern.
Hugh
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by flutefry
Re: Flute Question
I really love a reedy sound ,I 'm wondering if one is more suited to that sound
# Posted on July 16th 2010 by edorian
Re: Flute Question
I think the acoustics are different. Wood ages and gains character over time. To me, I would always choose wood over delrin. But, delrin isn't bad at all. I just perfer wood over it. It is a great thing if you don't want to mess with oiling or anything like that. It is pretty durable, and like Hugh said, it is great for a travel fltue if you are worried about your wooden one.
# Posted on July 16th 2010 by pipersgrip
Re: Flute Question
I don't know that there's any reason for it, but I feel like wood instruments sound better than delrin. I've never played a delrin and wooden flute by the same maker to compare though.
You might get hold of Dave Copley and see what he has to say about his flutes in the two materials.
# Posted on July 16th 2010 by ElaineT
Re: Flute Question
Physicists says it makes no different what the flute is made of.
But you hear about top classical fluters trying out different combinations
of platinum, iridium, gold and silver - spending huge amounts.
There must be something in it that the scientists don't know about
yet.
# Posted on July 16th 2010 by Hup
Re: Flute Question
.."say".. it's a typo, just a typo!
# Posted on July 16th 2010 by Hup
Re: Flute Question
If I had to guess, I'd start with looking at whether the techniques for shaping the materials have an effect - the material itself isn't vibrating, it's just containing the air that vibrates, but the presence or absence of sharp corners, to pick one thing at random, could make a huge difference to the way the air moves in the instrument. Bore of the instrument would make a difference, and presumably thickness of the walls (affects depth of the finger holes).
# Posted on July 16th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Flute Question
Different woods and materials definitely lead to different sounds. When I used to be into making flutes/whistles, you could really tell the difference. Some woods would make it sound airy, while others would give it a good solid honk. Just look and feel the difference between blackwood and boxwood. Even though they are the exact same size and shape, the weight is a lot different. Some woods are dense and when the sound vibrations hit them, they bounce off the walls of the inside flute and become louder. Others are more absorbant and absorb some of those vibrations.
Some woods are horrible for making woodwinds, and some are awesome.
I think a lot of people are making metal-lined flutes which, I think, make it sound a lot louder and stronger(I don't know if that is the best word choice) tone; this is all due to the fact that metal doesnt absorb any sound. So, if you get a metal-lined flute, whether delrin or wood, I don't think there will be much difference in sound.
# Posted on July 16th 2010 by pipersgrip
Re: Flute Question
Some flutes will give you a hard G, but will not yield the hard D. You should play the flute before buying.
# Posted on July 16th 2010 by wvwhistler
Re: Flute Question
Hup says:
"Physicists says it makes no different what the flute is made of.
But you hear about top classical fluters trying out different combinations of platinum, iridium, gold and silver - spending huge amounts. There must be something in it that the scientists don't know about yet."
No, the science has this one pretty squarely on the mat. But there's nothing unusual about the public not listening to independent science; preferring to be swayed instead by vested interests. Look at the global warming debate, the growing "alternative medicine" industry, the belief in supernatural beings, etc. Why believe a boring scientist when you can believe someone making a lot of money out of you instead?
You'll find a convenient summary of a very good study into the topic at http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/FluteTone-Intro.htm If you want to go further, the link to the study is there too. Essentially the study compared seven flutes by one maker, in a range of exotic and plain metals. When one player played all the flutes, neither a listening panel nor scientific analysis of the sound could differentiate them. But when seven players played any one of them, both the listeners and the measuring systems had no trouble differentiating the players. The study has sound grabs, so you can audition them too. As you will see, metals make no audible difference. Well, up to a point -- mercury and lead would not be my first choices!
But wood versus plastic is a much bigger difference than between metals. Remembering that the flute body is just a container for the vibrating air, the question becomes how good a container does the plastic or wood make? All other things being equal, the plastic is a more efficient container -- smoother, denser, less porous. It's not necessarily the case however that we're just looking for efficiency -- I think there may be some textual differences imparted by wood that we enjoy. Interesting that our favourite flute woods are all up at the plastic end of the density spectrum though. So we not prepared to stray very far from the top efficiency in search of texture.
I'd echo ElaineT's suggestion that you talk to Dave about any differences he detects in the materials he uses. He's a demn'd fine fellow and won't lead you astray.
Terry
# Posted on July 16th 2010 by Terry McGee
Re: Flute Question
it's hard to say. last time i saw dave, he happened to have a delrin flute of his with him. they're definitely great flutes! i always assumed they were not as good as his wooden flutes, because they cost less, but he definitely puts the same care and craftsmanship into all his flutes.
i'd say at this point in your playing, the only considerations are how much do you want to pay and how long do you want to wait. it's fun to own a wooden flute, but it's convenient to have a delrin flute. i have a delrin flute by another maker (dave actually made the slide, though), which cost me $600. i think it plays better than flutes i have played that cost $2,000. but then again my day to day flute is a silver flute with a wooden headjoint dave made, so i guess your question remains unanswered! :P
as far as reedy sound goes, my delrin flute is definitely reedier sounding than my wooden flute, and my wooden flute is from 1864. tom doorely did several albums with a delrin flute by another maker! you'd have never known it wasn't a wooden flute in his hands, honking away....
# Posted on July 16th 2010 by daiv
Re: Flute Question
hi edorian .. you didn't say if you were a beginner or not. i bought a Rob Forbes delrin flute for my daughter as a first flute in 2009 - she was already progressing well on the whistle - and is progressing well with the flute. thing was it was handmade and delivered to australia from us for approx. AU$450. I play fiddle and it sounds good to my ear. Love wood also but depends on how rich you are and maybe if you are just starting out. good luck.
# Posted on July 17th 2010 by bigyabby
Re: Flute Question
Yes,I'm brand new to the flute coming from the string world of guitar and waldzither. I know very little about delrin but I've heard good things about Copley and also Forbs, I don't know which one I'll settle on.
# Posted on July 17th 2010 by edorian
Re: Flute Question
I actually played a Copley tonight. I was a very nice flute with great sound. The reach was pretty easy on my hands as well.
# Posted on July 17th 2010 by pipersgrip
Re: Flute Question
I'm a long-time Irish wood fluteplayer but I've dabbled in Boehm flute a bit, for example I played Boehm flute for a while with our church group etc.
At the annual national covention of the National Flute Society there was a booth by a guy who makes high-end very expensive wood headjoints for Boehm flutes. He had them in several woods: brazilian rosewood, cocobolo, african blackwood, boxwood. He had several in each wood.
I spent quite a bit of time playing all of these and each wood had clearly different tonal properties. If I would have sorted the headjoints into little groups based on how they played, blindfolded, when I took the blindfold off I would have seen that I had sorted them by wood type. I think that any fluteplayer would have easily done the same.
On the other hand, another booth had silver headjoints with various embouchure cuts and these played more differently from each other than all those wood headjoints (all having the same embouchure cut) did.
About delrin flutes, my issue with them is that they're heavy.
# Posted on July 17th 2010 by Richard D Cook
Re: Flute Question
Hi edorian (great name btw),
When considering that "reedy" sound you want, don't forget that not only does the material vibrate to contribute to the sound, but the bore and the embrasure cute are also crucial. While some mega powered players with embrasures of "steel" can probably produce close to any sound they like on any given flute (generalization to make a point), I have found that the sound I am wanting really needs to have the inner bore that helps... for example, a more open tone on a Pratton model than on a Rudal and Rose... both lovely, but very different. Open/woody/reedy vs more closed/focused/sweet. My ears are really sensitive to harmonics, and I can "feel" the difference in the vibration... and very much the sound... given my same embrasure, wind, playing level (not great yet) etc. Also, my flutemaker changed the embrasure cut for me when I couldn't get the sound out that I wanted (after months of working), and it made a huge difference. So, my recommendation is for you to look more into type and embrasure cut... and seriously, just buy the flute that you fall in love with. None of the rest matters. (And if you don't want to mess with oiling, cracking, humidity and finnikiness... get the delrin! Forbes flutes were very nice sounding to me!) But I think wood is where it's at! Good luck! : )
# Posted on July 18th 2010 by jeanniedyke