Here we go again! I have noticed this term used frequently on this forum.Nobody who loves trad in Ireland would use this highly derogatory term.Here in Ireland it is used by those that have disdain for the music.I am not trying to be confrontational and I know it is only used here by those that love the music .I dont suppose it might not be described as diddley music any more.?
What's wrong with diddly? It's a very descriptive term for a particular type of music.
If you talk about diddly music, everyone knows exactly what type of music you are talking about. If you just call it 'trad' or 'ITM' you could be talking about anything from sean nos to show bands. You might as well just call it all 'folk music'.
I know one person who uses the term offensively. He is the only person I can think of who does this. But to be honest, he can be offensive with almost any word if he chooses to be.
Random I am not saying anybody here uses it offensively.I know that we are all here because we love the music.I am saying it is a hugely offensive term in Ireland.
"Nobody who loves trad in Ireland would use this highly derogatory term." Well, that would count out the scores of Irish friends of mine who use it as a matter of course then.
Ah ethical.Once again you are out of your depth and prove yourself not to know your stuff. If as you say your scores of Irish friends use this term they are no lovers of trad music.Llig you are the most common user of the term and yet you do know your stuff.One question for you so llig.Do you believe me when I state that the term diddley or diddley aye is offensive to trad musicians in Ireland?
nobody in ireland to my knowledge calls it diddley music, it seems to be called that by michael gill, who I believe lives in Scotland.
most people in this part of ireland call it traditional or irish music.
I always thought diddley musioc was the music of bo diddley, aka ellis mcdaniels, who sang bo diddleys a road runner, and hey bo diddley bo.
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Bo Diddley
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This article is about the singer. For the album, see Bo Diddley (album). For the song, see Bo Diddley (song).
Bo Diddley
Background information
Birth name Ellas Otha Bates
Also known as Ellas McDaniel
Born December 30, 1928(1928-12-30)
McComb, Mississippi, US
Died June 2, 2008 (aged 79)
Archer, Florida, US
Genres Rock and roll, rhythm and blues, blues
Occupations Singer-songwriter, musician
Instruments Vocals, guitar, violin, synthesizer, keyboards, piano, organ, percussion, drums
Years active 1951–2008
Labels Checker, Chess, BoKay Productions, RCA, MF Productions, Triple X, Atlantic
Website bodiddley.com
Notable instruments
Gretsch G6138
Bo Diddley (December 30, 1928 – June 2, 2008) was the stage name for Ellas Otha Bates, an American rock and roll vocalist, guitarist, songwriter, and inventor. He was known as "The Originator" because of his key role in the transition from the blues to rock & roll, influencing a host of legendary acts including Buddy Holly, Jimi Hendrix, The Rolling Stones, and Eric Clapton.[1] He introduced more insistent, driving rhythms and a hard-edged guitar sound on a wide-ranging catalog of songs. Accordingly, he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and received Lifetime Achievement Awards from the Rhythm and Blues Foundation[2][3] and a Grammy Award from the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences. He was known in particular for his technical innovations, including his trademark rectangular guitar.
Contents
[hide]
* 1 History
o 1.1 Early life and career
o 1.2 Success in the 1950s and 1960s
o 1.3 Later years
o 1.4 Bit acting parts
* 2 Accolades
o 2.1 Illness
o 2.2 Death
* 3 The Bo Diddley beat
* 4 Notable cover versions
* 5 Historic marker and other dedications
* 6 Discography
* 7 References
* 8 External links
[edit] History
[edit] Early life and career
Born in McComb, Mississippi, as Ellas Otha Bates,[4] he was adopted and raised by his mother's cousin, Gussie McDaniel, whose surname he assumed, becoming Ellas McDaniel. In 1934, the McDaniel family moved to the largely black South Side area of Chicago, where the young man dropped the name Otha and became known as Ellas McDaniel, until his musical ambitions demanded that he take on a more catchy identity. In Chicago, he was an active member of his local Ebenezer Baptist Church, where he studied the trombone and the violin, becoming proficient enough on the latter for the musical director to invite him to join the orchestra, with which he performed until the age of 18. He was more impressed, however, by the pulsating, rhythmic music he heard at a local Pentecostal Church, as well as an interest in the guitar.[5][6]
Inspired by a concert where he saw John Lee Hooker perform,[7], he supplemented his work as a carpenter and mechanic with a developing career busking on street corners with friends, including Jerome Green (c. 1934–1973),[8] in a band called The Hipsters (later The Langley Avenue Jive Cats). During the summer of 1943–44, he played for tips at the Maxwell Street market in a band with Earl Hooker.[9] By 1951 he was playing on the street with backing from Roosevelt Jackson (on washtub bass) and Jody Williams (whom he had taught to play the guitar).[10][11] Williams later played lead guitar on "Who Do You Love?" (1956).[10] In 1951 he landed a regular spot at the 708 Club on Chicago's South Side, with a repertoire influenced by Louis Jordan, John Lee Hooker, and Muddy Waters.
In late 1954, he teamed up with harmonica player Billy Boy Arnold, drummer Clifton James and bass player Roosevelt Jackson, and recorded demos of "I'm A Man" and "Bo Diddley". They re-recorded the songs at Chess Studios with a backing ensemble comprising Otis Spann (piano), Lester Davenport (harmonica), Frank Kirkland (drums) and Jerome Green (maracas). The record was released in March 1955, and the A-side, "Bo Diddley", became a #1 R&B hit.
McDaniel adopted the stage name "Bo Diddley". The origin of the name is somewhat unclear, as several differing stories and claims exist. Bo Diddley himself has said that the name first belonged to a singer his adoptive mother was familiar with, while harmonicist Billy Boy Arnold once said in an interview that it was originally the name of a local comedian that Leonard Chess borrowed for the song title and artist name for Bo Diddley's first single.[12]
[edit] Success in the 1950s and 1960s
On November 20, 1955, he appeared on The Ed Sullivan Show, a popular television variety show, where he infuriated the host. "I did two songs and he got mad," Bo Diddley later recalled. "Ed Sullivan said that I was one of the first colored boys to ever double-cross him. Said that I wouldn't last six months". The show had requested that he sing the Merle Travis-penned Tennessee Ernie Ford hit "Sixteen Tons", but when he appeared on stage, he sang "Bo Diddley" instead. This substitution resulted in his being banned from further appearances.
The request came about because Sullivan's people heard Diddley casually singing "Sixteen Tons" in the dressing room. Diddley's accounts of the event have been inconsistent.[13] Diddley has stated that he was the first black performer to appear on Sullivan's show, when in fact African Americans had been appearing on the show since 1949.[14][15][16]
Chess 1960
Chess included Diddley's recording of "Sixteen Tons" on the album Bo Diddley Is a Gunslinger,[17] which was originally released in 1960.[18]
He continued to have hits through the rest of the 1950s and even the 1960s, including "Pretty Thing" (1956), "Say Man" (1959), and "You Can't Judge a Book By the Cover" (1962). He released a string of albums whose titles, including Bo Diddley Is a Gunslinger and Have Guitar, Will Travel, were bolstered his self-invented legend. Between 1958 and 1963, Checker Records released 11 full-length albums by Bo Diddley. Although he broke through as a crossover artist with white audiences (appearing at the Alan Freed concerts, for example), he rarely tailored his compositions to teenage concerns.
In 1963, he starred in a UK concert tour with the Everly Brothers and Little Richard. The Rolling Stones, still barely known outside London at that time, appeared as a supporting act on the same bill.
In addition to the many songs recorded by him, in 1956 he co-wrote, with Jody Williams, the pioneering pop song "Love Is Strange", a hit for Mickey & Sylvia in 1957.[19]
Bo Diddley was one of the first American male musicians to include women in his band, including "The Duchess" Norma-Jean Wofford, Peggy Jones (aka "Lady Bo"), Cornelia Redmond (aka Cookie) and Debby Hastings, who led his band for the final 25 years of his performing career. He also set up one of the first home recording studios.[7]
[edit] Later years
Over the decades, Bo Diddley's venues have ranged from intimate clubs to stadiums. On March 25, 1972, he played with The Grateful Dead at the Academy of Music in New York City. The Grateful Dead released part of this concert as Volume 30 of the band's Dick's Picks concert album series. Also in the early 1970s, the soundtrack for the ground-breaking animated film Fritz The Cat contained his song "Bo Diddley", in which a crow idly finger-pops along to the track.
Bo Diddley spent many years in New Mexico, living in Los Lunas, New Mexico from 1971 to 1978 while continuing his musical career. He served for two and a half years as Deputy Sheriff in the Valencia County Citizens' Patrol; during that time he personally purchased and donated three highway patrol pursuit cars.[20] In the late 1970s, Diddley left Los Lunas and moved to Hawthorne, Florida where he lived on a large estate in a custom made log-cabin home, which he helped to build. For the remainder of his life he spent time between New Mexico and Florida, living the last 13 years of his life in Archer, Florida, a small farming town near Gainesville.
He appeared as an opening act for The Clash in their 1979 US tour; in Legends of Guitar (filmed live in Spain, 1991) with B.B. King, Les Paul, Albert Collins, George Benson, among others, and joined The Rolling Stones as a guest on their 1994 concert broadcast of Voodoo Lounge, performing "Who Do You Love?" with the band. Sheryl Crow and Robert Cray also appeared on the pay-per-view special.
[edit] Bit acting parts
His pawnbroker character's offering Louis Winthorpe III "fifty bucks" created one of more quoted scenes in 1983's Trading Places. In the late 1980s, he teamed with Bo Jackson in Nike's famous "Bo Knows" commercials, saying his one line: "Bo, you don't know Diddley!"
In 1998, Bo appeared alongside legendary guitarists B.B. King, Eric Clapton and Jeff "Skunk" Baxter as members of the Louisiana Gator Boys in the film Blues Brothers 2000.
[edit] Accolades
Bo Diddley achieved numerous accolades in recognition of his significant role as one of the founding fathers of rock and roll.
* 1986: inducted into the Washington Area Music Association's Hall of Fame.
* 1987: inducted the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and the Rockabilly Hall of Fame.
* 1990: Lifetime Achievement Award from Guitar Player magazine.
* 1998: Lifetime Achievement Awards from the Rhythm and Blues Foundation and the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences.
* 1999: His 1955 recording of his song "Bo Diddley" inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame as a recording of lasting qualitative or historical significance.
* 2000: Inducted into the Mississippi Musicians Hall of Fame and into the North Florida Music Association's Hall of Fame.
* 2002: Pioneer in Entertainment Award from the National Association of Black Owned Broadcasters, and an Icon Award from Broadcast Music Incorporated (BMI)
* 2008: Although confirmed before his death in June, 2008, an honorary degree was conferred upon Bo by the University of Florida in August 2008.
* 2009: Florida's Secretary of State announces Bo's induction into the Florida Artists Hall of Fame (induction to occur during Florida Heritage Month, March 2010).
In 2003, U.S. Representative John Conyers paid tribute to Bo Diddley in the United States House of Representatives describing him as "one of the true pioneers of rock and roll, who has influenced generations".[21]
In 2004, Mickey and Sylvia's 1956 recording of his song, "Love Is Strange", was inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame as a recording of qualitative or historical significance, and he was inducted into the Blues Foundation's Blues Hall of Fame. In 2004, Rolling Stone ranked him #20 on their list of the 100 Greatest Artists of All Time.[22]
In 2005, Bo Diddley celebrated his 50th anniversary in music with successful tours of Australia and Europe, and with coast-to-coast shows across North America. He performed his song "Bo Diddley" with Eric Clapton, Robbie Robertson and longtime bassist and musical director Debby Hastings at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame's 20th annual induction ceremony and in the UK, Uncut magazine included his 1957 debut album "Bo Diddley" in its listing of the '100 Music, Movie & TV Moments That Have Changed The World'.
In 2006, Bo Diddley participated as the headliner of a grassroots organized fundraiser concert, to benefit the town of Ocean Springs, Mississippi, which had been devastated by Hurricane Katrina. The "Florida Keys for Katrina Relief" had originally been set for October 23, 2005, when Hurricane Wilma barreled through the Florida Keys on October 24, causing flooding and economic mayhem. In January 2006, the Florida Keys had recovered enough to host the fundraising concert to benefit the more hard-hit community of Ocean Springs. When asked about the fundraiser Bo Diddley stated, "This is the United States of America. We believe in helping one another."[23]. In an interview with Holger Petersen, on Saturday Night Blues on CBC Radio in the fall of 2006 [24] Bo Diddley commented about the racism that existed in the music industry establishment during the early part of his career that saw him deprived of his royalties from the most successful part of his career.
Bo Diddley performed a number of shows around the country in 2005 and 2006 with the fellow Rock and Roll Hall of Famer Johnnie Johnson Band, featuring Johnson on keyboards, Richard Hunt on drums and Gus Thornton on bass. But from 1985 until he died, his touring band consisted of Debby Hastings (bass/musical director), Frank Daley (guitar), Yoshi Shimada or Sandy Gennaro (drums), and his personal manager, Margo Lewis (keyboards).
[edit] Illness
On May 13, 2007, Bo Diddley was admitted to intensive care in Creighton University Medical Center in Omaha, Nebraska, following a stroke after a concert in Council Bluffs, Iowa on May 12.[25] Starting the show, he had complained that he didn't feel well. He referred to smoke from the wildfires that were ravaging South Georgia and blowing south to the area near his home in Archer, Florida. Nonetheless, he delivered an energetic performance to an enthusiastic crowd. The next day, as Bo Diddley was heading back home, he seemed dazed and confused at the airport. His manager, Margo Lewis, called 911 and airport security and Bo was immediately taken by ambulance to Creighton University Medical Center and admitted to the Intensive-care unit, where he stayed for several days. After numerous tests, it was confirmed that Bo Diddley had suffered a stroke.[26] He had a history of hypertension and diabetes, and the stroke affected the left side of his brain, causing receptive and expressive aphasia (speech impairment).[27] The stroke was followed by a heart attack, suffered in Gainesville, Florida, on August 28, 2007.[28]
While recovering from the stroke and heart attack, Diddley came back to his home town of McComb, Mississippi, in early November 2007 for the unveiling of a plaque devoted to him on the National Blues Trail stating that he was "acclaimed as a founder of rock and roll." He was not supposed to perform, but as he listened to the music of local musician Jesse Robinson who sang a song written for this occasion, Robinson sensed that he wanted to perform and handed him a microphone. That was the first and last time that Bo Diddley performed publicly after suffering a stroke.[29]
[edit] Death
Bo Diddley died on June 2, 2008 of heart failure at his home in Archer, Florida.[30][31] Garry Mitchell, a grandson of Diddley and one of more than 35 family members at the musician's home when he died at 1:45 a.m. EDT (05:45 GMT), said his death was not unexpected. "There was a gospel song that was sung (at his bedside) and (when it was done) he said 'wow' with a thumbs up," Mitchell told Reuters, when asked to describe the scene at Diddley's deathbed. "The song was 'Walk Around Heaven' and in his last words he said 'I'm going to heaven.'"[32]
His funeral, a four-hour "homecoming" service, took place on June 7, 2008, at Showers of Blessings Church in Gainesville, Florida and kept in tune with the vibrant spirit of Bo Diddley's life and career. The many in attendance chanted "Hey Bo Diddley" as a gospel band played the legend's music. A number of notable musicians sent flowers, including: George Thorogood, Tom Petty, and Jerry Lee Lewis.[33][34] Little Richard, who had been asking his audiences to pray for Bo Diddley throughout his illness, had to fulfill concert commitments in Westbury and New York City the weekend of the funeral. He took time to remember Bo Diddley, his friend of a half-century, performing his namesake tune in his honor.[35]
After the funeral service, a tribute concert was held at the Martin Luther King Center, also in Gainesville, and featured his touring band, The Debby Hastings Band, and guest artist Eric Burdon.
In the days following his death, tributes were paid to him by George W. Bush, the United States House of Representatives, and an uncounted number of musicians and performers, including Eric Burdon, Elvis Costello, Ronnie Hawkins, Mick Jagger, B. B. King, Tom Petty, Robert Plant, Bonnie Raitt, George Thorogood. Robert Randolph and the Family Band and Ronnie Wood. He was posthumously awarded a Doctor of Fine Arts degree by the University of Florida for his influence on American popular music and in its "People in America" radio series about influential people in American history, the Voice of America radio service paid tribute to him, describing how "his influence was so widespread that it is hard to imagine what rock and roll would have sounded like without him." Mick Jagger stated that "he was a wonderful, original musician who was an enormous force in music and was a big influence on The Rolling Stones. He was very generous to us in our early years and we learned a lot from him." Jagger also praised the late star as a one of a kind musician, adding, "We will never see his like again.[36] As his bass player Debby Hastings said: he was the rock that the roll was built on."[citation needed]
The documentary film Cheat You Fair: The Story of Maxwell Street by director Phil Ranstrom features Bo Diddley's last on-camera interview.[37]
His stage name is echoed in the name of Bo, chosen in April 2009 by United States President Barack Obama's family as the "first dog".[38]
In November 2009 the guitar used by Diddley in his last-ever stage performance sold for $60,000 at auction.[39]
[edit] The Bo Diddley beat
Bo Diddley touring Japan with Japanese band Bo Gumbos
Bo Diddley was well known for the "Bo Diddley beat," a rumba-like beat similar to "hambone", a style used by street performers who play out the beat by slapping and patting their arms, legs, chest, and cheeks while chanting rhymes.[40] Somewhat resembling "shave and a haircut, two bits" beat, Diddley came across it while trying to play Gene Autry's "(I've Got Spurs That) Jingle, Jangle, Jingle".[41] Three years before Bo's "Bo Diddley", a song that closely resembles it, "Hambone", was cut by Red Saunders' Orchestra with The Hambone Kids.
In its simplest form, the Bo Diddley beat can be counted out as a two-bar phrase:
"One and two and three and four and one and two and three and four and..."
The bolded counts are the clave rhythm. "Shave and a haircut, two bits", another clave derivative, also fits, as does the non-musician's count of "one-two-three one-two".
His songs (for example, "Hey Bo Diddley" and "Who Do You Love?") often have no chord changes; that is, the musicians play the same chord throughout the piece, so that the rhythms create the excitement, rather than having the excitement generated by harmonic tension and release. In his other recordings, Bo Diddley used a variety of rhythms, from straight back beat to pop ballad style to doo-wop, frequently with maracas by Jerome Green.
Also an influential guitar player, he developed many special effects and other innovations in tone and attack. Bo Diddley's trademark instrument was the rectangular-bodied Gretsch nicknamed "The Twang Machine" (referred to as "cigar-box shaped" by music promoter Dick Clark). Although he had other odd-shaped guitars custom-made for him by other manufacturers throughout the years, most notably the "Cadillac" design made by Tom Holmes (who also made guitars for ZZ Top's Billy Gibbons, among others), Diddley fashioned the square guitar himself around 1958 and wielded it in thousands of concerts over the years. In a 2005 interview on JJJ radio in Australia, Bo implied that the design sprang from an embarrassing moment. During an early gig, while jumping around on stage with a Gibson L5 guitar, he landed awkwardly hurting his groin.[42] [43] He then went about designing a smaller, less restrictive guitar that allowed him to keep jumping around on stage while still playing his guitar. He also played the violin, which is featured on his mournful instrumental "The Clock Strikes Twelve", a 12-bar blues.[44]
He often created lyrics as witty and humorous adaptations of folk music themes. The song "Bo Diddley" was based on the lullaby "Hush Little Baby". Likewise, "Hey Bo Diddley" is based on the song "Old MacDonald". The rap-style boasting of "Who Do You Love", a wordplay on hoodoo, used many striking lyrics from the African-American tradition of toasts and boasts. His "Say Man" and "Say Man, Back Again," both of which were later cited as progenerators of hip-hop music, share a strong connection to the insult game known as "the dozens". For example: "You got the nerve to call somebody ugly, why you so ugly the stork that brought you into the world ought to be arrested".[45]
Big Tab - are you up in Norn Iron? I know from friends up there the term diddley is used often by those who would choose to belittle the music. However, elsewhere in the world, the term does not seem to carry the same negative intent.
I do find it funny how often we debate appropriate names of this music on the mustard board. Now matter what you call this stuff, somebody out there always seems to have a physical reaction. "ITM - Diddley - Trad - Irish folk - etc" Nobody know what to call it.. LOL
diddley - whiskey (nice, but too sweet and always in D)
diddly - whisky (more of a kick but sounds the same to some folk)
Anyway, ethical is right, this is nonsense. I might be described as a feckin Scottish git - doesn't make the word Scottish offensive, does it?
No Jussa..I am in Co Clare.It has ,probably since the early nineties been used by people to belittle the music in one word all over the country even in the media.
You are caught up big time on humour and being funny swfl and bogman but can I sincerely tell you and calling trad music diddley or diddley aye is 100% not funny.
I don't call it diddley/diddly myself but I can't for the life of me find the word offensive. Millions of people can't stand diddle but I couldn't care less. It works for me and the folk I hang about with.
... and YZ should get Phantom Button to design his next album cover. YZ could just e-mail him random links to wikipedia and PB could could just flow it all in, no questions asked.
Many derogatory terms, some substantially more offensive than what we are talking about here, are also used in an affectionate, ironic manner within the community itself. Various people on this board use it thus and I suspect that they are not about to stop, so you're probably going to have to learn to live with it, big_tab.
No problem john.I know that.I do find it interesting since llig has chosen not to answer my question that people use it knowing it is exactly the derogatory term for Irish music in Ireland.
big_tab is correct, at least in my experience. Diddly (with or without the e, it still sounds the same) music is what Irish people who neither understand nor like trad music call it. And it's used in a patronising way. It's a cultural thing. You can shout all day about whether or not it actually IS offensive, but I don't see what's hard about accepting that it might be used offensively, or taken offensively in places other than the places where you hang out.
Maybe there is truth in that. On an earlier thread I maintained that only on session .org do people treat the bodhran so badly.I now maintain that only on this forum would you hear the term diddley used to describe trad.
I suppose it can be something similar to the feeling some have in their gut when hearing tunes referred to as songs, or sessions being performances. Now, if that's not a load of mustard I don't know what is.
big_tab, might I humbly suggest that you switch to decaf.
If that doesn't work, I have a few other suggestions:
1. Lighten up.
2. Adjust your tone to be less belligerent.
3. Pay attention to what people are saying to you rather than treating everything everybody says as a personal attack.
This is the word that traditional musicians in Ireland are offended by llig.The word you use so often even though I know you mean no offence.However since it is used so patronisingly in Ireland as pavif has explained is there any chance that you could stop using it?
I suppose it's too much to ask that we all recognize that words change their connotations across borders, and that we understand that a term that is locally used as a slur might be an affectionate tag in the speaker's dialect?
From where I'm sitting, this thread feels like a case of someone going out looking for offense where none is meant. I'm sure that's not what's going on, but it does feel that way from here.
Ok Jeremy..I apologize for any lack of civility.I cant lighten up though as this music is my life and I make no apology if I am too passionate.I will take on board what you say.I am grateful to you for providing this forum and I enjoy the banter. I would hope though that session.org would not be all about fun and humour and there would be a place for those of us who like a tussle over this music we all love. I appreciate all you do and bow to your request.
Now my great friends dont think I am running away sulking.Coincidentally I have a few music things I have to do. any offence caused to anyone was not intended.This decaf is starting to work. Mellow...See y all laterxxxxx.
here in Appalachia, we have alot of Irish Americans. I was up in a neighborhood bar, in an Irish American neighborhood, talking to a friend I hadn't seen in a long while and I told him I had been playing Irish fiddle and this was his reaction...
"God, I hate deedly music"
that was the first time I ever heard the term, and it was definitely meant to be derogatory and was being used that way
...just giving anecdotal evidence in support of the original poster.
I feel the need to post a favorite joke of a friend of mine:
A man walks into a chip shop and says, "I'd like a steak and kiddely pie, please."
Young lady behind the counter says, "Excuse me?"
"I'd like a steak and kiddely pie."
"I'm sorry sir, what did you say?"
"I'D LIKE A STEAK AND KIDDELY PIE!!"
"Do you mean 'steak and kidney' pie?"
"I said kiddely, diddle i?!"
The term jazz (jass) was originally used, (by some accounts) to describe the activity enjoyed in brothels. Musicians were frequently retained to promote the 'good times' atmosphere. As a specific genre emerged (as did a different genre in accompanying silent movies), it became known by the name that nurtured it.
One would not tend to state on one's resume, or in polite company, that they were 'jazz' musicians.
Years later, the word is used by everyone, from airline names to trite expressions (all that jazz); including a description of a style of music. The fact that the name means wildly different things to different people does not change the value of the music. Those who play and listen to the music know what it means to them, and often they don't even attempt to explain it to 'civilians'.
"A rose by any other name..."
Random, no one took offense to sessions being called performances. But some of us resented being repeatedly called "delusional" and "in denial" simply because we view our own sessions as sessions, not performances. That's apples and oranges to this discussion. No one is telling big_tab that he has to call this music diddley....
I dislike the use of the word diddley, but only because it runs contrary to my education. I was taught that words ending in 'e' that have a 'y' added to turn it into an adjective lose the 'e', so--fiddle, fiddly; wobble, wobbly, etc. To take the word as an insult is a bit much, I think. Just glance heavenwards and tut. You are wasting your time, I suggest, expecting people you have never met to change their ways at your behest.
There is certainly nothing new in calling the music Diddley music. When I was a kid in the forties, in the absence of instruments people use to diddle (dye del) the tunes for dancers at house dances. I remember one old lady, whose son was a priest and home on leave from Africa, trying to conduct a dance and lilt the tune at the same time. Much to the amusement of the dancers, she incorporated the instructions and the tune to her daughter Mary Ann as follows: Mary Ann, Mary Ann, catch the priest by the skideree diddle dum.
"this music is my life and I make no apology if I am too passionate."
If so, perhaps it would be good for you to broaden your horizons and perhaps help moderate your behaviour as it has, it appears, lead you into numerous confrontations that are and have proved to be ultimately futile.
I have often wondered why it is you do what you do. Given that this thread is going over 'old ground' I can't help but wonder about your motives when posting this 'discussion'.
Are you deliberately trying to provoke a row? From where I'm sitting it sure looks like it. One man's noise can be another man's music - what you call it is merely incidental.
I suppose that some people are less sensitive to the context that a word is used in. I like the affectionate use of the word "diddley" on this forum. However I have had conversations with people who called it "diddley eye" disdainfully and it's quite annoying - I presume because the word is a caricature of the sound of the music. It would be like talking with electronic music buffs and saying "Yeah I don't mind hearing the old "oompha oompha beep beep" music from time to time when I'm on a night out.
Hi john.The lack of response was because I cant be at the computer all the time! It was not to provoke a row.It interests me greatly that only one poster or maybe two realise that this is an offensive term in Ireland.This crew that I am enjoying being part of is definitely a new experience for me .We have a common love for the music .Maybe it is culturally we are a thousand miles apart.I have been reading this forum for about 5 years.Sometimes I love it and more times it is frustrating to read .So to explain my rash of posts they are the result of years of lurking.I dont think I have any more controversial posts coming but I might.I appreciate the right to annoy some of ye and I appreciate the post from Jeremy to set me straight and not to suspend me.I am happy to have raised this issue because some of you might not have realised that in Ireland its a derogatory term.
Here in the NE USA, I have only heard the term diddley music used by people who play it, and who use it in in an affectionate manner. Perhaps it is some of that self deprecating humor that was discussed in another recent thread.
Perhaps, as oldstrings has pointed out, like the term jazz, the term diddley is losing its negative connotations along the way.
You see al I dont live in the NE USA..I am stating it is an offensive term towards trad in Ireland .Its possible people here dont believe this but if they do and still use it I would wonder why.
I have Irish friends (musicians)--from Cork, Ennis, and Galway--who have all used diddley endearingly. It may be offensive to some, but not to all. And it's at least a good few steps removed from some sort of ethnic slur. Unless you're really thin-skinned about this sort of thing. Like some people here have protested when others call sheet music "the dots." Sorry, but it's ink on paper we're talking about, or in this case, tunes. Not like we've insulted someone's genetic heritage.
That said, I prefer calling it simply "the music." That's what we're talking about on this site, eh?
Well Will I have to believe that .I have never heard a musician use the term endearingly.Therefore I take you dont believe me when I tell you it is only used in Ireland by those that have disdain for the music.
I believe you, just letting you know that the negative connotations didn't seem to make it across the pond, and since so many thesession.org members are from the USA, perhaps that is one of the reasons why the term gets bandied about here without that negative aspect.
You obviously feel strongly about it, but you are also obviously in the minority on the issue.
In some parts of the world, the word "pants" refers to the things you wear under your pants. It's possible that some people don't realize this, but I do. And you know what? I still refer to my trousers as "pants". Because that's what they're called around here, and it'll all be okay.
There's a flute player in this neck of the woods who plays Dever the Dancer, and he calls it Humors of Whiskey. And you know what? It's okay, it's really not that big a deal.
There are people who go outside and light up a fag, and some of them are well aware that in other parts of the world that expression would mean "set fire to a homosexual man" - and you know, they still use the expression, and nobody has yet been harmed by it.
Let it go, tabby. Let it be. It'll all be okay. If this is the biggest thing that you have to worry about in this world, you live a charmed life. There are species of fish that my niece will never taste, thanks to some bastards and their habit of driving around and keeping oil companies in business. "Torquemada" Gonzales is still walking around loose, as is Henry Kissinger. Phil Ochs is dead, Townes van Zandt is dead, and Donovan is alive, so there's no justice in this world. People still use Microsoft products, ferpetesake. If knowing that someone out there is using the wrong term to refer to diddly music is what keeps you up at night, you might really consider worrying about something more interesting or something more meaningful or something more fun.
I am definitely in the minority.Are there any Irish posters here at all?It would be interesting to hear what they would say on the issue.Its not the end of the world Al but when someone uses the term diddley or diddley aye to describe the tunes music lovers cringe.I am just trying to impart this and the intersting part is whether people believe this is true or not.Will obviously doesnt as he has Irish friends who describe the tunes with this term.Thats fine.I do feel strongly about it but thats only on this forum .
Cross post.I 've let it go Jon.Just chatting away to Al now.The battle is over and I stand defeated. It is obviously just me that finds it offensive anyway.
It obviously has negative or even derogatory connotations in some places, apparently not in all places. Maybe in England, Scotland and Norn Iron it doesn't have negative connotations. Maybe it's an English-language import to Ireland over the years! Depends on one's perspectives, I'm guessing.
Anyway, it's great going to sessions in Ireland (I speak only from my experience in the west, Clare more particularly), ye hear great music, nicely played, there's no time taken up with bodhran or jokes, and you hear some great bodhran playing as well, you don't have to worry about whether it's to be called diddley music or not because people don't seem to use the term and I'm pretty sure they take don't like it, there's a marked lack of pretentiousness, great craic and very friendly and accepting people there.
I don't know what it's like in England though.
Is it ok to say that.
Sorry.
Go the tabber.
If someone came into a session in Co Clare and said they wanted to hear some diddley music they wouldnt last sh*tting time.If you are ever over again let me know Flynner and we can play some tunes.
I happened upon a lot of the session, that that man Chrishty Barry is at, and sometimes the man Michael Kelliher was there, and Blackey O'Connell and others, and yer man who is the son of Gus O'Connor of the pub there, the Australian man who makes the flutes in Ennis half the year, and your man with the accordion,- the man from Ennistymon, and at Davy Spillane's session in Lisdoon, mainly during the various nights of the week; and I could not often go past Kevin Griffin's playing there, he is great, and a lot of visiting musicians are passing through there and he makes them very welcome. Ennis was great but I could not get there so often because I was staying away over in north west Clare.
big_tab, if you noticed, I said I prefer to call it the music. I respect that some people on this site (and not just you) find diddley offensive. This was brought up several years ago, and I made note of it.
But that doesn't negate that I have musician friends born and raised in Ireland who don't find it offensive and use it endearingly.
Here, you're on an international forum peopled by folks who love this music. I'd say cut them some slack and perhaps even be happy that you have potential friends around the globe who would buy you a pint and pull up a seat for you at their sessions---if you don't entirely alienate them here first.
These I saw a lot in Clare, as well, tab, Orla Harrington was around. Lovely playing.
(Do those call it diddley, do you think?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaBgOlv6Grw
The problem with discussing a term like 'diddley' on a website is surely that it's offensive capacity is entirely related to the inflection of voice and the context in which it is delivered and by whom. I've heard it used in a disparaging way or maybe belittling manner by mostly curiously people from the North. But I've also heard it used in a friendly and affectionate way - it all depends on the tone of voice and the context - 'Jaysus - not more of that diddley crap' or 'that was a lovely bit of diddley' etc. etc.
Before this thread I never realised anyone could find the term "diddley music" offensive.
I know quite a few people in England who call Irish traditional music "diddley music" or "diddley-diddley music". None of them is putting it down. As they are unaware of any official name for it they simply use the onomatopoeia that describes the rhythm of a jig.
A pet peev of mine is when I've played hornpipes, waltzes and Carolans all night and people say, "I enjoyed the jigs and reels", as if all instrumental Irish music had to be either a jig or a reel.
But I don't find it insulting or offensive. They *LIKE* the music. They just don't know the right words. To take offence where none is intended (and where, in fact, praise is intended) I would have to be a total horse's arse.
I know feck all about engines. My mate Andrew is a fine, time-served mechanic. He's invested years in learning his trade, but he doesn't get offended when I thank him for fixing "that round bit that went wrong". He just accepts that I don't know what it's called. I'm not insulting him and his mechanically-minded brethren. Far from it, I am respectful and grateful.
"... and YZ should get Phantom Button to design his next album cover. YZ could just e-mail him random links to wikipedia and PB could could just flow it all in, no questions asked."
I liked this post so much it made my mouth water slightly. Thanks llig...
Flynner,Thanks for those links .You met all the right people.If you went up to Christy Barry and said "Play a piece of diddley music"you would be putting your life in danger.Anyway almost universally here I have been made aware that I am very muc h in the minority.All I can say is that session.org is its own little world and thats ok . On many many issues though ,believe, it is at odds with the wider trad community.I
ah, it was great craic with the lads there, tab. Jeez, I even got away with playin' the bodhran on a couple of tunes with 'em. It was a little touch and go at Kilfenora for a second or so, but it was ok with them too.
You may be in the minority here, tabber, but in Clare you are not, and there is more music to be heard there than on the ol' mustard anyway.
Tis its own little world here, it is quaint, a little sad, and there is good information for learners throughout these pages, but it is interesting to say the least to see who it is who seem to be the gatekeepers here, and where they come from.
It's a particular kind of person that takes of-fence, particularly when none is intended. It's a particular psyche that is on the look out for offense.
Some cultures, Italians and Japanese for example (and I apologise for the generalisation, but you have to generalise too a certain extent if you are discussing culture) have whole elaborate routines of politeness that seem to be designed around a desire to trip people up, just so offense can be taken. As a generalisation, I would not say the Irish are like this.
It's individuals out for a fight:
"You looking at my bird?"
"no no, sorry, I wasn't, honest."
"What? My bird not good enough to look at?"
big tab's post is not a bleeting complaint about him being a minority who's been offended by nasty foreigners. He's tried to make it sound like this, but it's not.
It's him saying, "go on, go on, I dare you, say that again." Moves a little bit closer ... "SAY THAT AGAIN"
Moves too close ... "S A Y T H A T A G A I N"
The main gatekeeper on the session.org speaks and we should all bow.Llig you are wrong.Wrong. Wrong.It is not an Irish versus foreigner thing.The music has been international for 40 years now.All nationalities mix and play the music together and it is exciting and exhilirating and great for the music.My simple premise is that you and a few others here continue to use the term diddley to describe the music and I was wondering if you would consider maybe not if you believe me when I tell you it is offensive in Ireland.
no, tab, that was not me - but it sounds great - and hair is not my long suit anywa'. I'd be pretty quiet though.
It was great craic at O'Connors Doolin too, with the landlady there, Teresa, who will brighten up any party. What a great crowd of people there.
tab, I believe they do not address that question, because they do not know about it, or they do not know *why* it is offensive; because you are getting every other answer but the one to that question.
llig, in my direct experience with the Japanese people, the "politeness" which you point to is a very genuine cultural trait, it is not something tricky to trip people up. Where do you get that sort of stuff from? It is a very very insular view.
Really, I think some of the problem here in this thread, and on this site generally, is that there are very definite cultural differences between players of this music, I would go so far as to say, in my opinion only, broadly along the lines of the English-speaking-cultural areas and the Irish ones.
I think there are some profound differences that people don't seem to be aware of, just as many seem to be absolutely totally unaware of the potentially offensive connotations of the word diddley in Ireland in particular.
from the same post:
"It is not an Irish versus foreigner thing."
and
"you and a few others [non Irish] here continue to use the term diddley ... believe me when I tell you it is offensive in Ireland.
(Too bad it started off with someone taking on the robes of spokesman for ALL of Ireland - that is simply embarrassing, IMHO. Has your PM been notified of this?)
Pardon my cross-posting, Ladies and Gents, but language and better communication is of great interest to me. Re. terminology, I wonder - am I the only one who perceived the term "diddly" as being more than affectionate minimizing, but also as a subtle reminder to us not take our shared hobby TOO seriously? (That definately includes its use by Llig)
Just wondering, is all.
I am, perhaps, not the best qualified to comment, as, for me, there is more to life than Irish Traditional Music and Dance. While my life would be missing much without it, it is not my motive in all I do or pursue.
Thoughts?
Mr. Gill? Did I read you even half-right on this?
enlyke flynn, I think I've answered all big tabs questions. Which one are you refering too?
(and I know that the "politeness" of the Japanese is a very genuine cultural trait. I was pointing out that to an outsider, it seems as though it's designed so thay can take offense. I was pointing out that this is the opposite of bigtab, who is merely bruising for a fight)
Again you misrepresent me.Deliberately. You quote me and put in your `"Non Irish".I didnt say that .The only divisiveness is that i say it is offensive in Ireland .Its probably cringeworthy for some musicians from other countries too when they read your use of it on this forum.
i cannot see that tab is cruising for a fight whatsoever. He is putting something to you which you do not answer as it happens.
This is his question, once again:
"I was wondering if you would consider maybe not if you believe me when I tell you it is offensive in Ireland."
Quite politely and diplomatically put, I would have thought.
Funny that, I am an "outsider" in respect to Japan, and I have never thought that the cultural politeness there was designed "so they can take offence". I think it is what it is; probably the same in Irish culture as well, I do think. Circumspect perhaps, but not contrived to trip anyone up.
Why is it that the longest arguments are over the things that nobody actually cares about?
(and you'll never convince me that tabby actually cares about this, he's just having too much fun baiting people)
In the halcyon days of trad in sixties London, the pubs closed spot on at 2pm on Sundays. The crowd from the Favourite, who would be in full swing at around that time, often spilled out on to the pavement outside the pub and carried on playing tunes. Local residents often called the police about 'The Bleedin' Paddy Music' interrupting their Sunday afternoon peace. In fact I often heard that expression when setting up for a gig in certain pubs. As soon as some of the customers saw a box or fiddle appear on the stage the shout went up "Oh for f.....ks sake, not more bloody Paddy Music". Now some musicans could be really offended by that. I found it amusing and often started playing Knees up Mother Brown as a reel....I even remember Jimmy Power starting off a gig in a pub with a selection of marches, the first tune being the Seekers hit 'World of our own'....I think some musicians nowadays take life too serious.
jk, I am sure that tab does in fact care about this, quite passionately I would say.
it is curious that in some quarters it is regarded as funny and endearing to use an expression like "bleedin' paddy music", but woebetide someone who would describe an english genre (like bleedin' morris dancing for feck's sake), as "bloody pommy music" or something else as innocuous as that.
What is good for the gander, is apparently not good enough for the goose.
Don't tell me bigtab didn't infer the suggestion that it's the non-Irish that say it.
I think that before this discussion, I may have considered not using the term here. But certainly not now.
I could put that diplomatically if you'd prefer:
I would consider maybe not using the term diddley if I believed it to be offensive in Ireland. But as I believe that many people take offence to things that are not offensive, I believe the onus is on them to stop being so feckin precious and get their lives into perspective.
(And by the way, I'd say the same thing to a Japanese person who took offence at me inadvertently drinking my tea out of the wrong side of the cup.)
you see, folks, I hope this thread points it up to you for once in your lives - what *you* might consider to be good old English cultural and linguistic in-your-face, call a spade a spade directness, is actually regard by a lot of cultures as just plain arrogance and ignorance and red-neck behaviour.
I wouldn't assume that just because a culture speaks English that it must then necessarily hold the same cultural beliefs and values as the English culture. I wouldn't like to judge another culture by the standards and norms of my own.
OK, so long as it's moved on from diddley, I'll continue ...
No. I flatly refuse to respect a culture merely because it is a culture. There are certain aspects of humanity and respect that should reign across cultures. And the fact that many cultures make a big thing of eschewing the larger humanitarian values is not merely an indictment of those cultures, but more importantly, an indictment of those individuals that support it.
I never said it was a non irish issue.It was Irish people who use it as a term of abuse that I was referring to.But it has gone on far too long here.I am not looking for conflict here when I post a thread.I do certainly have very different views on the music world and I would hope that by throwing up my views it might at least get some people to reexamine their positions.I force no one to participate in my posts and I am grateful for the tussle and it has forced me to reevaluate my own position.
@ enlyke flynn: Is that why you you deliberately took the p!ss out of a native Australian instrument's name for your previous username here? You're just in this for a laff, aren't you? How is anyone supposed to take you seriously?
it was quoting a PhD study in australian indigenous linguistics, as an alternate view to the established "English" name for the instrument; if you call that taking the p*ss, that's probably fairly predictable.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but there are only two cultures, so far as I know, that have English as an official language that have also been predominantly catholic for approaching thousands of years and which have native cultures which are themselves older than the English language: Ireland and Malta – but I stand to be corrected on that.
Do you not consider that cultural mores in those countries may be very far different to those of England, even though there is a shared language?
These are profound differences in how people from different cultures view communication practices and linguistic labels.
I really think that people from solely an English cultural perspective need to be a lot more sensitive to these differences, in the interests of better relations. If they care to, of course.
The English cultural view of everything, and it's apparent acute sense of self-importance, can become e.x.t.r.e.m.e.l.y tedious. Maybe that is why a lot of people might watch here, but not contribute.
well, anyway, we're heading back towards the tube from Cecil Sharpe House, home of The English Folk Dance and Song Society, having been to I really can't remember what performer and sort of music precisely, when this drunk approaches us, and asks, gesturing back towards C. Sharpe, "Ha' ye' bin dooin' the diddley-diddley-doddley ?" and we quite understood him and answered "Yes" which seemed to satisfy all concerned with no confusion.
Why do you guys keep referring things like "cultural mores in England" when not all of the posters -- i.e. Michael -- you are addressing live there?
That's quite hilarious, actually, since you are going on ad infinitum about being offended by terms you find degrading to your culture, while most Scots I have met get pretty cheesed off when people call them English or fail to grasp that Scotland isn't England.
Ha pete, that's priceless. At first, I read that as:
"There was this drunken tube, from Cecil Sharpe House, and we were heading back to him after some gig somewhere and he asks us, gesturing something to do with C#, "Ha' ye' bin dooin' the diddley-diddley-doddley ?" and we quite understood him and answered "Yes" which seemed to satisfy all concerned with no confusion.
Did think about it. Doesn't make sense. No surprise, really, par for the course.
Oh, sorry, didn't mean to come off all English with the golf reference.
"Steve as usual you contribute nothing.Start a thread.Let us know if you have any singlle thought on trad music"
A downright lie. I've contributed a huge amount to this website about the harmonica in Irish music so a bit less of the "as usual" crap if you don't mind. You won't have to struggle with seven or eight different user names to find all my contributions either. And I respectfully suggest that this thread is hardly a suitable vehicle for contributing "thoughts on trad music." It's a bloody good vehicle for contributing thoughts on your illusory taking of offence over something and nothing and that's about it innit. If you want people's thoughts on trad music start threads which are actually about trad music.
not that it matters a sh*te, but in my experience when people at home call it diddley music it's usually derogatory, just my 2cents don't give a sh*te about cultural differences etc.. and I don't really give a sh*te what people call it. but there it is.
The people I've heard using the term "diddley" most often have all been Irish. As far as I know it started there and the only reason anyone uses it elsewhere is because the Irish got them saying it.
If the Irish have in fact moved on and don't like it any more (as the Scots have dropped the term "Scotch"), it's going to take a while for the rest of the world to catch up, and it might never do.
I've never personally met an Irish musician who was offended by it, though.
Oh, English, Scottish, what's the difference? Apparently, if it's not Maltese, it's crap. After all, they've been Catholic for thousands of years, or something.
Have these two done any of the things Jeremy has suggested?
"1. Lighten up.
2. Adjust your tone to be less belligerent.
3. Pay attention to what people are saying to you rather than treating everything everybody says as a personal attack."
he is just posting a simple question. Why is it that if some people here don't like the question, the op is told they should "lighten up"?
I see there have been some more Irish posters now on this thread who seem to think that the term is derogatory - in Ireland.
Jack. That seems reasonable.We only have experiences of w here we live.If you go to the original post it might be noticed that it was polite.Its grand .I was only asking.Interesting stuff ensued.Its interesting that I maintained it was a term of derision used by Irishpeople who hate the tunes (there are many) and people didnt seem to see that and it ended up somehow that I was anti English.It is also interesting that bar a short input by Hugo Chavez there was noone to say i had a point or didnt from Ireland.
people from an English language or cultural perspective here seem to have the opposite view. Why, simply on that basis, should people who don't share their view, be required to "lighten up"?
"it might be the perspective and the communication practice rather than the location" in the context I can only interpret that as meaning "it sounds like the sort of thing an English person would say".
swfl..I think I have taken on Jeremys advice.You probably notice when I am giving stick to you and your 5 or 6 friends who have been posting here for years but people have been pushing my buttons too.Enlyke is well capable of arguing his own case but I was the only one that Jeremy talked to not everybody who has the timerity to disagree with you .
Playing in a Irish band we have the following as part of our strap line on our web site" ... We are 5 eejits that bring trad, popular and modern toe tappin' diddly, diddly Irish music & songs to pubs, clubs, doos 'n festivals in North Wales, Cheshire, infinity & beyond......." This for us clarifies to the unwashed that want to book us that they will get jigs, reels hornpipes etc. rather than the English "hey neddy neddy" and do not see it as being offensive in the slightest. I'd even go so far as to say I'm proud if asked to play a diddly diddly tune. So there. Don't be too precious about names just enjoy it for what it is. The best music in the world...!!!
very good, weebag, that should get 'em in the door.
Where are you? In England is it?
Great.
Why don't you take a band tour to Ireland with that line?
LOL.
Well thank you Flynner .a chara.Neither of those traits unbelievably are appreciated here where they consider my English dastardly and my manner a tad abrupt.
...you see, the man is a complete diplomat - who has been pushed to the limit by watching the carry on here for years and years. Can you not get the Chrishty Barry on here to help to clarify some issues?
I think I might try Seamus Tansey to help with my crazy theory that In Ireland calling the music diddley aye is considered offensive.Yep Seamus might take the pressure off me.Maybe Tony Mac Mahon rings up his mates and says "Lets go play some diddley".No that would be too easy.I will plough my own furrow!
'It is also interesting that bar a short input by Hugo Chavez there was noone to say i had a point or didnt from Ireland.'
Well, I think you'll find Luidín's from Waterford.
I've lived in Ireland for the last three years and, before that, had visited the country many times over the previous quarter century. Partly because of my work I've visited numerous sessions and have spoken to many musicians.
Random referred to lilting in the second post on this thread and it strikes me that, if 'diddley' is genuinely demeaning, then the likes of Séamus Fay wouldn't get many bookings.
I can recall hearing or reading the term 'diddley' on only a very few occasions (and never in the North). Of these the only time I can remember a derogatory usage was in some pub down in Tipp (or somewhere) when a drunken punter demanded that the musicians stop playing 'that diddly sh*te' so he could sing a hurling song or something similar.
right so, macC, you think the term is not used in Ireland much at all, and one of the very few times you have heard it used, it was in a derogatory context. Ok. I think that's what the op is positing, isn't it.
No, swfll, I think tab will be waiting for some self-appointed gatekeepers on this site to answer his question.
No resolution swfl.There doesnt have to be.Its a discussion forum and we can discuss for as long as we want. "You two" Flynner we have been lumped together because it seems we are the only two musicians in the whole wide world who dislike the term diddley.Session.org is a beautiful place.Mac Cruiskeen the story about the drunken punter really makes my point.The absolute antagonism of many Irish people towards the music.They invariably use that term.
1) that the word 'diddley' is not used very often, so I don't understand the fuss;
and,
2) the only time I've heard it used derogatorily it was by a drunk who wanted to hold court.
You cannot possibly extrapolate from these that this lends support to your belief that the term 'diddley' expresses 'the absolute antagonism of many Irish people towards the music'. Indeed, I'd love to know how what evidence you have to support your claim that a significant number of Irish people detest their native traditional music.
Or James Kelly....etc lol. Never known of anyone to take offence to the D word in the real world. But maybe the Irish musicians I know are just dafties and I'm Scottish, I'm not even from Clare have only one personality so what the feck do I know
Tab, you and Flynn are lumped together because Flynn seems to ride around in your pocket saying "yeah, yeah, you tell 'im tabby".
Hey, Flynn, why don't you go ahead and post something while tabby drinks a glass of water, that's always a good one.
Right its sorted.Bogman has never known anyone to take offence in the real world.They dont use it in Leitrim.Its a complete figment of my imagination and I am an eejit for not liking its usage.Everybody loves the term diddley.Sorted. thanks for coming on board and finishing this bogman.
"Mac Cruiskeen the story about the drunken punter really makes my point.The absolute antagonism of many Irish people towards the music.They invariably use that term."
No big_tab, it made no point at all. There is no offence inherent in individual words. The offence only comes from the sentiment behind their use in a specific situation.
Suppose 'diddley' had been consigned to the naughty draw (where we keep words like 'poof' and 'cripple'). That punter would simply have said "Stop playing that ITM sh*te". And that would have been just as offencive. The offenciveness comes from the sentiment of the sentence, not the word 'diddley'.
Flynn, you're live in Australia if I'm not mistaken? I'm sure you can distinguish between "You stupid, clumsy ba****d!" when you knock someone's beer over and "Howya doing you old ba****d" when you meet an old friend. Same word, completely different intent, the first derogatory, the second affectionate. When people use the word 'diddley' on this forum it's analagous to the latter example. I struggle to understand how anyone could seriously take offence to it when viewed in that light.
"ITM" - oh no; I hate that phrase, so passe. It's Gaelic music surely.
johnsamuels, I can of course make that distinction. So what about: "all those old pommy ba****ds on the session.org who keep referring to Gaelic music as diddley. Good to see you again."
Can you distinguish that one?
For a supposed newcomer, big_tab, you seem remarkably well-informed about my county of residence, especially since no mention of it is made in my biog (and *none whatsoever* in this soi disant discussion). I never referred to Leitrim so why have you?
And you haven't answered my question - 'I'd love to know how what evidence you have to support your claim that a significant number of Irish people detest their native traditional music.'
John if you and some of the others who are hopping off me on this and prolonging the thread read the original post.I have stated that there is no malice in its usage here.I suggested that since Irish people use it with derision towards the music it might be nice if we even considered curtailing its usage here.It wasnt actually meant to be confrontational.
bogman plays with a band called peat bog faeries, here they are, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_TdfGa8ALQ
down this way, county cork, diddley music would be considered mildly derogatory, but I wouldnt waste my time getting stressed out about it, in the broader perspective of life, it is not as important as relatives or friends getting cancer or having strokes or heart attacks
Sorry mac Cruiskeen how can I give that evidence.I know Irish people in their thousands dont like the music.I dont mind.The ones that love it are on the increase.You mentioned you were from Leitrim about a week ago on a thread. no offense at all to you.I have been reading here for years.You know and love the music.
big_tab do you consider the use of the term diddley,as it is typically used on this site, to be derogatory toward Irish music or those who play traditional tunes? IMHO it's usage on this site is just the opposite of that.
Speculate all you like yz. I used to play a bit of football, that had nothing to do with Irish music either. One thing is for sure though, this is you "playing" Irish music. If I am ever heard playing Irish music like that will someone please shoot me.
Random I do not consider the term diddley as used on this site as derogatory.Absolutely not.Everybody on this site loves the music in some way.Again my suggestion was that since it is derogatory in Ireland people might consider not using it.
Big_tab, it would be grand if anyone who may be put off by the term *diddley* consider (& you could help communicate this) "Everybody on this site loves the music in some way."
Fair play?
"I know Irish people in their thousands dont like the music.I dont mind."
I'd have to agree with tabby there - your average Irish citizen is quite indifferent to trad. It's probably viewed in a slightly more benign way than the Gaeilge - but not much. If fact, most people would rarely consider it - too busy watch reruns of American soaps. They wouldn't know a jig from a reel if it bit them on the arse and sure it all sounds like the same old diddley stuff anyway. But that's the way of it.
Tabby says the use of the term *isn't* derogatory here on the mustard board, only in Ireland. And yet the mustard board isn't *in* Ireland any more than it resides any place. But we shouldn't use the term?
Talk about elitism. He's saying: "My culture trumps all yours. Use only words I approve." That's really pathetic.
I don't think he is saying that, will. He is saying, on my reading of it, that people on this board may not mean it to be derogatory (although some might, who knows), but that it is a derogatory term in some contexts, namely in Ireland.
I think he is just trying to point out the hamfistedness of using a term like that really. No offence meant.
Below is what I typed after seeing wounded husar's post;
Cross-posted. O.K. I get it now. What big_tab is saying is that thousands of people, in Ireland, consider Irish traditional music with derision & will superficially refer to it as diddley music, but with little or no understanding of the music. So, the term is used quite offhandedly, just as others on this thread have described. Yet, on the other hand there are also thousands of people (in Ireland & elsewhere) who love the tunes & refer to this as diddly music. Those thousands+ likely have considered that some do refer to Irish traditional music with derision, are quite aware of this, yet continue to love the tunes regardless of term used ... diddley or any number of other names.
Will .You never fail to amaze me.We are all as one here as people interested in trad music.Use the term diddley if you want.I just thought since it is offensive to some you might stop.If you want someone to start a conflict over Irish musicians versus other countries you have the wrong man.I hate that sh*t and have already said so.What I suggested is simple and clear.It is simply incredible that you can take that nonsense from it.
more or less; except that the term is probably a linguistic import from some places where it historically and/or currently still has a derogatory connotation. If that is so, I would expect that the word would be roundly disliked by people in Ireland who do like the Gaelic music, and needless to say, those people probably would not use it. That's what tab is saying in a nutshell. I think he just wants people to realise that it can be an offensive descriptor in some contexts, and perhaps better form not to use it, perhaps here.
Very reasonable I would have thought.
"Use the term diddley if you want.I just thought since it is offensive to some you might stop."
That's what you've said, over and over. And your entire basis for it is that it's offensive to the minority in Ireland.
And myself and many others here have answered back: We're not in Ireland, and we're not the majority of folks who do dislike or disregard this music. We're a world-wide-web forum for feck's sake.
What you seem incapable of hearing is that a world-wide board of Irish traditional music lovers is *not* going to bow to your sensitivities just because you live in Ireland.
My great-uncle got his music in Roscommon and Galway, and he brought it with him to Brooklyn, New York. And he played his fiddle only in the family home because simply being Irish wasn't widely or well tolerated outside the neighborhood.
I live in Montana USA, so I frequently hear and see people making fun of the music I play. It gets called things *a lot* uglier than "diddley." And it seems the world over, session players are pestered by requests for Orange Blossom Special or Thunderstruck or the latest pop crap off the radio. So get off your high horse and wake up--all of us here are in it for the music. No one is going to disparage it, no matter what words they use. We may not be on the same island, but we damn well sure are swimming in the same water.
Tabby and enlyke sure like to speak on behalf of all Ireland. And make claims they cannot possibly back up.
The term "diddley" comes from mouth music--it's not an English or ethnic word, it's just a string of syllables that fits the dense rhythmic structure of the music. ***Irish*** lilters say it over and over and over again.
Yes, self-appointed disparagers of the music turned it into an insult (which is why, as I noted way above but tabby never acknowledged--he'd rather just keep arguing--I prefer not to use the term and simply call it "the music"). But people can belittle you only if you let them. Everyone on this web site takes pride in playing this music. Michael's invested more years of his life playing it than tabby claims in his own bio. So have I. As they say on this side of the pond, chill out dude.
I don't use the word around Irish born musicians. A few Belfast born players gave me quite a histroy lesson a few years ago regarding their experiences playing growing up, and how the word was used to belittle them, their culture, and their music.
It reminds me of the time my brother went into a pub in the Falls Road and asked for a Black-n-Tan. He got quite an earful from the locals. Irish pubs in America don't blink an eye about advertising Black and Tans as a beverage, but back in the land where B-n-T's ran rough-shod over the locals, it's still raises bad memories.
big_tab, if someone who clearly enjoyed being in a bar where the music was played used the term within earshot of a session isn't it more likley that they would shrug it off as a mistake by a stranger than get upset ? Someone, maybe you, might get into a conversation with them and explain that people didn't use that term around there. One on an irritation scale how does it compare with being asked for the Titanic or Riverdance tune ?
I am aware that some bigoted types could make a big deal of it of course. But is that common ?
Will I am lying on the couch here totally chilled.You and others keep coming back for more .Why dont you just ignore my ridiculous untrue post?I also dont give a bollix how many years Michael(who I presume is llig) or anyone else have invested in the music.
I just wanted to say how much pleasure I get from playing DIDDLEY DIDDLEY DUDLEY DOO DAHH and DIDDERLEY DIDDERLEY DIDDLEY WANG BANG music. I also rather dig DIDDL-EYE DIDDL-EYE which is the West Midland’s special variety. I know loads of people who diddle DIDDLEY, DIDDLY and DIDDLY DIDDLY DUDLEY. I was in the pub the other day DIDDLING away on the DIDLY DIDDLY music along with loads of other diddly-maniacs! This DIDDLY DIDDLY music is something else! All this DIDDLEY DIDDLEY is making me widdley! If not piddle! WIDDLY WIDDLY DIDDLY DOO DAH! That’s a good old tune! Some tunes of course aren’t DIDDLEY they are DIDDLE DIDDLE D-EYE DAY. Not to be confused with Klezmer which is probably more YA HA DEEDLE DEEDLE BUBBA BUBBA DEEDLE DEEDLE DUM whilst being BIDDY BIDDY BUM all day.
Meanwhile away in Diddley-Land, Bo is plainly singing about Irish Trad...
Diddley diddley daddy, Diddley diddley daddy. Bo diddley, bo diddley here’s our scene
Oh! Here comes some cartoon octopus from the 60’s playing Rakish Paddy (apparently on the alto sax and electric bass): SQUIDDLY DIDDLY, SQUIDDLY DIDDLY, SQUIDDLY DIDDLY, SQUIDDLY DIDDLY, SQUIDDLY DIDDLY... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/Squiddly_diddly.jpg
Meanwhile Ned Flan-diddly-diddly-ders arrives: Well, if you're talking about root beer, I plead guilt-diddily-ildly as char-didily-arged.
A Good DIDDLY DIDDLY To everyone.
Wow, I've been attacked at least twice already in this thread and I haven't even contributed. Welcome to another typical session dot org thread.
So BT raises a legitimate question and Ethical plants seeds for ad hominem with his arrogant dismissal of BT's point as "nonsense." And then things flare up in the usual way.
~~~
So anyway, I'll respond to the OP. I have wondered what people in Ireland who play and love the music think about this term too. So far we have only heard from people outside of Ireland, except for BT, so I'm still waiting for any corroboration.
As a Yank myself (possible derogatory term) my first experience with the word came when I was sitting at the bar at O'Reilly's Pub here in San Francisco and over the bar's CD player I heard what I thought was a track from Sweeney's Men. I asked the barman about it, a Dubliner, and he said, "Don't ask me, I hate that diddly crap." Since then I have heard it and used it not as a derogatory term, but more of what I thought was cute or humorous... affectionate almost. But not living in Ireland I have no idea whether it is used the same way amongst Irish people there who love the music.
I have been calling the part of the summer music camp where the Irish trad is played "Diddly Diaville" and I was thinking of making a t-shirt about it as well. Now I'm having second thoughts after the point BT raises, and I'm waiting to see if it's corroborated by other Irish nationals. If I have missed responses from other Irish board members to the OP please point me to them.
I looked the musical sense of "diddle" up in the OED. The first use they found for it was from John Skelton in 1503 - probably not very complementary (and not clear who it was about), but then Skelton hated everybody, the Scots in particular (he was the sort of guy who could start a brawl in a phonebooth and would have fitted in just fine on this forum). Later uses were mostly from Scotland, and tended to be neutral in a flippant sort of way.
It doesn't seem to come from "diddling" - maybe the other way round. It was just a word that rhymed with "fiddle" and meant "playing tunes". There is a selection bias here, since if you're writing a poem that needs that sort of rhyme you probably aren't in reverent mode.
None of the OED cites appears to relate to Ireland.
Trolling successful, wind-ups hit their mark, the original Poster and his faithful companion busily rubbing their two surviving grey cells against the grain of all good sense.
Shame on all of you -
right now, off to bed.
All of you.
I mean it.
Now.
You see a thread started by a trolling post which is now 237 posts old and you are, somehow, insanely drawn back to it. So you post to it again, fully realising as you do the sheer futility of it all. It's a kind of unreal, post-insanity syndrome I think...
MacCruiskeen, I did review the thread and I didn't see any Irish people living there who chimed in to either corroborate or deny what BT asserts. It's a big thread and I said I might have missed them if they were there, and I asked to be pointed to the comments if anyone saw them. Telling me to check through the thread isn't going to help... I already did that. So far, it looks like we've only heard from people outside Ireland.
Ok... so we have 3 Irish people represented on the thread then.
Here we go again! I have noticed this term used frequently on this forum.Nobody who loves trad in Ireland would use this highly derogatory term.Here in Ireland it is used by those that have disdain for the music.I am not trying to be confrontational and I know it is only used here by those that love the music .I dont suppose it might not be described as diddley music any more.?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
I've also heard it used in a friendly and affectionate way - it all depends on the tone of voice and the context - 'Jaysus - not more of that diddley crap' or 'that was a lovely bit of diddley' etc. etc.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by the wounded hussar
not that it matters a sh*te, but in my experience when people at home call it diddley music it's usually derogatory, just my 2cents don't give a sh*te about cultural differences etc.. and I don't really give a sh*te what people call it. but there it is.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Luidín
So it appears that BT's point is consistent with the other two, for the most part, except that TWH says he's heard it used in an affectionate way as well. But I'd say that BT was close enough to the truth, according to the few comments from his fellow Irishmen, and certainly didn't deserve the abuse and attacks for having this insight from all of the others who don't even live in ireland and have really only visited... if that. BT didn't claim that no one in the world uses the term, he qualified it as being in Ireland saying, "Nobody who loves trad in Ireland."
thinking back on it again, the references I have heard to the word as being derogatory were in the context of Belfast. Just saying.
It is from those particular references that I have extrapolated to its use elsewhere, that it is meant to be derogatory, including in England, and elsewhere of course.
But certainly in Ireland the republic, it is quite clear to me that it would be meant and taken as a derogatory comment there.
Diddle
Rhymes......... with.................. Riddle
And .............a Little ................Piddle
Makes ...................................a Puddle
of p*ss
If ...............................I Miss...................
.......The Pot.................Fear Not
Ye Rancid Floor
For........................
This puddle ....................Is not Much More
Than All the p*ss
Which....................... Has Been
Spilled .........................
Here ................................
Before.....................................................................!
PB: you accuse me of using "ad hominem" in saying that the point made that "nobody who loves trad in Ireland would use the term" was "nonsense". I do wish you'd restrict your use of pretentious language to phrases you understand. I attacked the idea, not the man.
The reason I did this is because I know it's nonsense. I know loads of Irish musicians, in Ireland, who use the term, and don't particularly think about it. b_t then said that these people obviously don't love the music. I, and they, would find that remark very offensive. Not to say, inaccurate.
[btw I am aware of slightly different connotations in Northern Ireland, which is a whole other ball-game.]
Phantom, I wouldn't claim to be representative of trad players in Ireland, no more than tabber. But I am for my sins, a native and I should think the term 'diddley' is by and large used in a derogative/ condescending way by the general public - how derogative depends on tone and context as I noted above.
What I find amusing about this thread is that there was a very similar one a few months back about 'plastic paddies' with the positions reversed - most of the people here 'defending' the term diddley were complaining long and hard about the term plastic paddy!!
Personally, I don't have a huge problem with either because I know where they're coming from. One thing I've found useful in life is not to take things too seriously - it's good to be able to laugh and poke fun at yourself. And the Irish are experts in deflating people, back stabbing and taking the p*ss generally, so I think old tabber might be best to calm down and have a laugh at it.
That sounds fair hussar.If you revert to the op you will find me calm.Even the most ardent foe here would admit that offense can be taken from the term.Ethical lives in a music world that is alien to me and as yet there hasnt been a single Irish correspondent to say there is no truth in what I say.It is a different argument to say that people should feel comfortable using it here where it is not derogatory.Hopefully I have contributed in a small way to make the term stick out in a sentence for the odious term it is.
The discussion here of "diddly music" reminds me of other "slang" that may have other meanings or at least be interpreted differently depending on the context in which the term is used. For instance, in this country the word "nigger" originated as a racial slur but in recent times the term has been appropriated by many African-Americans and the meaning has been altered--but only when a black person is referring to another of the same race. Otherwise the word retains it's meaning as a racial slur. So, the use of "diddly" in the context of a bunch of folks who love the music is one thing. Used by outsiders as a put down the meaning is quite different.
This forum isn't Ireland. It has its own subculture and its own local use of language. Any trad lover from Ireland who sees the word in a thread will quickly understand from the context that it's not being used in a derogatory fashion. It think we should credit them with the intelligence to be able to do that.
Nearly in complete agreement john.I think we all cringe every time we see it written on a trad music forum.Nobody Irish has stated otherwise here yet.Its a horrible term for the music.Do you use it John?
that may be so, johnd, but in that case they will possibly never know that it is offensive in some contexts, places and usages, and it would be important for them to know that; especially, I would think if they ever go to Ireland, which might be quite likely considering they play the music. It is no good dropping into the scene there and inadvertently putting everyone offside immediately. Same as any other cultural faux pas.
I've used it lots in Ireland. It's especially perfect when you turn up in an unfamilar small town. You can go into any bar, order a pint and ask the barman where the diddley music is and he knows exactly what you're on about. Try asking him where "The Music" and he points you to the juke box. I've never tried asking for the "ITM", And can you imagine asking for the "Tim"? But I have tried asking for the Traditional Irish Music and got sent to a song session.
Yes, it's a great word. It's perfect. Especially if the barman you are asking can't stand that feckin diddley sh*te, which is more than likely. He'll still know where to send you ... and ... you've made friends with the local barman by being on his level.
I personally like the term when used in a jokey fashion and I often use that way at home. I don't think I've ever had occasion to use it here or at a session that's not to say I wouldn't. But, yes, it's important to be aware of cultural differences and whilst I doubt whether this thread will stop anyone using the word then it does at least have some value in that regard.
if you're carrying a fiddle or banjo case, and you ask where the session might be, wouldn't they get the same message? Unless they think there's something else in the fiddle case!
Yeah, he'd probably get you. But "diddley" is completely unambiguous, and as I say, if the barman can't stand diddley music, which is more than likely, that's the term he'll recognise and probably use himself.
I would never use it, especially there, because it's as likely someone will not like it, there would be a very high probability of saying it to someone who will take offence because of it's connotations perhaps elsewhere in Ireland in particular.
...besides that, I just don't like the term, the way in which it seeks to onomatopoeically "claim" or label the music in an English-language cultural context. I find that abrasive in some inherent way. It annoys me.
"So, the use of "diddly" in the context of a bunch of folks who love the music is one thing. Used by outsiders as a put down the meaning is quite different."
I wouldn't have thought that anyone would disagree with that.
what, by saying, through an implicit statistical extrapolation that Scotland doesn't like it when "people call them English or fail to grasp that Scotland isn't England."
Silver spear doesnt read the poet either.It annoys the music community.I am out of this thread now you will be glad to hear.Will try to avoid conflict and discuss the tunes more .Thanks for the company on this thread.
"I think we all cringe every time we see it written on a trad music forum."
Speak for yourself. I don't cringe when I see or hear it. I'm rather fond of the term actually and have been using it more and more in a wholly affectionate way recently. My friends who hear me using the term know that I love diddley music and they wouldn't for one millisecond think I was trying to be derogatory. You're trollishly trying to make a mountain out of what isn't even a molehill. And you can occasionally play a nifty triplet on the harmonica by saying "diddley" into it. So, to me, it literally is diddley music. Personally I hate the term "trad" for diddley music, a term used frequently here by that jig fellow as I recall. But I'm not about to start a thread about it.
Try reading what people actually write rather than what you believe they wrote. I think I specified "most Scots I have met..." That implies that there may be people I've met who don't give a feck and that there are quite a lot of people I haven't met who may or may not give a feck. I'm not speaking for an entire nation but rather a small subset of people in it who's views may or may not be representative of the majority of people in it. Unlike you, who have repeatedly claimed "People in Ireland think.." as if you know what every single person in Ireland thinks.
"*as if* you know what every single person in Ireland thinks" is an implied statistical extrapolation that you are taking that is not justified by a phrase such as "people in Ireland think ...(whatever)"
He is saying that people in Ireland do in fact think that the word is derogatory. He lives there, he is well into the music scene there for years probably, he hears what people are saying around him, he knows the place, and he is capable of extrapolating from that fairly significant sampling. Unless you don't believe a word he says.
I don't use the term, it strikes me as an example of cultural colonialism or the like. I don't go around saying that either, I just don't use the term, and I don't like the sound of it. It sounds naff to me.
"Fairly significant sampling." Ha bloody ha. Then reveal to us his sampling techniques. How many people did he interview? How did he select the sample? What steps did he take to ensure that his question wasn't a leading one? You're clutching at straws now, mate. Of all the unconvincing posts in this unconvincng thread that one shirley takes the biscuit.
If it were some sort of "cultural colonialism" I think I'd be with you, enlyke. But, as someone said above, I think the term came out of Ireland and has spread around the world from there. There's no doubt some people use it and mean it in a derogatory sense. Other people, including some Irish people, use it in an affectionate sense. It might sound naff, but I just don't think it's a big deal.
it would only be a big deal if you were saying it in your musical company in Ireland and they took offence - I think that's what he is saying. At best it sounds naff, at worst it could be offensive.
I would say, Steve, that he has heard enough views on the word to establish a valid enough size sample. He is entitled to extrapolate from there on his own judgment. If you're not happy with his "sample size", ask him, I don't know what it is; for fek's sake. There are a lot of musicians in County Clare though, I would have thought.
why would I be clutchin' at straws, Steve, when he has already won the argument, done and dusted, and departed?
that's my last word on the matter anyway.
It has perhaps been 2 years since I heard a writer on National Public Radio telling a story about singing "Dixie" with his band one night & then being inspired to buy a pickup truck with a confederate flag decal on the back window. I have searched for the story online, but have not been able to find it again.
The writer is an African-American who lives in the south U.S. One night, while playing with his band, a heckler yelled out for him to play "Dixie. At 1st he cringed, but then he realized he actually considers it to be a beautiful song. He sang it slowly, with all his emotion. The heckler was left slack jawed.
As the story proceeds he found an ad for a pickup truck with a large confederate flag decal & decided he would buy the truck. When they met in person the other guy didn't know how to respond. The guy selling the truck told him perhaps the flag could be scrapped off. He said, "Oh, that's such a nice flag. It's the Brother's Freedom Flag. I love it!" He bought the truck. IMHO this is pure poetry & justice ~ a black man with no shame driving a pickup truck in the deep south with the Brother's Freedom flag on full display.
When someone wants to make you cower, you don't have to.
I'd love it if Jeremy did one of his automatic censorship things and made it that any time anyone wrote diddley, it came out as ITM. Reading this thread would be a hoot. I've just tried it with the first few posts, it's fab.
Gentlemen, I suggest to you that this is futile. Three hundred posts later, we find out that there was apparently never an argument, but as long as anyone posts here, flynn will argue with them.
("No I won't!"
"There, you see?"
"See what? Just that I contradicted you doesn't mean I'm arguing with you."
"Yes it does."
"No it doesn't!")
Okay, as long as anyone posts in this thread, flynn will contradict them without any hint of a rational argument to support his views, correction noted.
I suggest we all just back away, so maybe the new comments list will show something other than this thread. Who knows, maybe there's something actually related to diddly music that we can talk about.
ok, we're all going to just back away slowly now, nobody turn their back and we're going to go off now into other threads.
Watch now....on the count of three we will wake up and not remember any of this.
I think you chaps (in Ireland/ Eire or wotteffah) who feel dissed by the use of the word ‘DIDDLEY’ should get over it and re-claim the word for yourselves; like the gays did with ‘queer’ and black youth did with ‘n*****’ thus devaluing the insult factor of the word and enhancing the sense of dark irony.
Meanwhile in another Diddleyland somewhere: If I was a rich man ya ha deedle deedle bubba bubba deedle deedle dum all day I’d biddy biddy bum If I was a wealthy man.
Ooh! You're just so insulted! I wonder how you manage to get sleep every night if you're so exasperated all the time!
What would you prefer people to refer to the island that the Romans called Hibernia then? Something that doesn't insult you!
The eire is an english thing llig.The diddley thing is a few of you on this forum.I cant start here again.I was only joking till yhaalhouse came in with the eire stuff.Next someone will say we are part of the British Isles and I will lose the head and get thrown off so sadly i cant continue here.
The British Isles is a geographic description of all the islands laying to the NE of the Earopean mainland. The main Islands are Great Britain which consists of England, Scotland & Wales (& London!), Ireland, the Channel Islands, Isle of man, Orkney, Shetland, Inner & Outrer hebridees and all the minors: Lindisfarne, Isle of Wight, St Kilda et cetera...
This has been discussed to death before!
What is quite often misunderstood is the difference between the terms: British Islands and British Isles.
And of course the geographic descriptions are seperate from the political ones...
It's Diddley looking strong on the second to last furlong. Diddley approaching the finish line... Oh, no, he's flagging. He's fallen back. Bad Grammar Slagging has pulled up along side him. His jockey is flailing at him with the whip and now Making Up Statistics is ahead of him. Bad Grammar Slagging has lost his brief lead. There's British Isles flying up the outside rail! He's passed General Ization and Bad Grammar Slagging, is taking on Making Up Statistics. It's British Isles and Making Up Statistics neck and neck! This is an exciting race, ladies and gentleman.
Sorry, Steve, that was my sponsor from People who Suck at Accurate Typing Anonimus taking control over my keyboard and pretending that that wasn't a typo. You of course are the epitome of a gentleman. I'll not let that guy near my computer again.
And it's Random Silliness, the longshot, approaching fast on the inside rail, challenging the leaders! He's passed Diddley and General Ization. He's now only a length behind Making Up Statistics!
And on the outside, the filly Absurdity is finally making her move. Her jockey is guiding her towards the inside position. She's cut off the early favourite, Diddley and is drawing up on General Ization. She's passed him now. Random Silliness is nose to nose with Making up Statistics. British Isle's lead has dropped back to two lengths, one length. Making Up Statistics has fallen behind Random Silliness. General Ization has failed to hold off Absurdity. Is she going to challenge the front runners?
Round the Colosseum we go marching
Wearing dickies that are needing starching
Watched by Nero, he's our hero
Sits up there with a belly full of beer-o
All day long he keeps on fiddlin'
Fingers 'DIDDLIN', always twiddlin'
We must please him, if we tease him
Throws us in the lions den.
from THE ROMAN GLADIATOR (Dave Houlden)
sung to the tune of March of the Gladiators I believe; seems diddling been around awhile...
If "diddley" derives from "diddle" (which is unproven), then this bears on use of the term (from the Online Etymological Dictionary):
Diddle: "to cheat, swindle," 1806, from dial. duddle, diddle "to totter" (1630s). Meaning "waste time" is recorded from 1825. Meaning "to have sex with" is from 1879; that of "to masturbate" (especially of women) is from 1950s. More or less unrelated meanings that have gathered around a suggestive sound.
For me, playing this music is one of the few things that *isn't* a waste of time. (No comment on the later meanings assigned to the word ) So I'll go on calling it "the music."
Hey diddle diddle,
The cat and the fiddle,
The cow jumped over the moon,
The little dog laughed to see such sport,
And the dish ran away with the spoon.
No, I'd ask the barman for a nip of Red Breast, neat.
And then I'd ask the most high-maintenance looking woman in the pub which local establishment she avoids because of the music played there, and get the address.
Seriously, if I were in the west of Ireland, it'd be the dead of winter and I'd be in Conor Bar in Dingle or perhaps Minnion's in Balla, Co. Mayo. No questions needed.
You are technically correct, sensibleken. Éire is the official name of the State but as usual there's often a gap and sometimes a yawning crevasse between what's officially correct and what's in common parlance.
Gaeilge is the official language of the Republic of Ireland but very few citizens would be able to carry on a useful conversation in it. English for better or worse is the everyday language and Ireland is the name in common use.
What Bigtab is referring to is the common use of Éire by people across the water when addressing letters etc and referring generally to Ireland. Yes, it's technically correct but it betrays a mindset stuck in some timewarp!
From over the water that sounds ridiculous. It is the usual decision about putting what it says on the stamp of the letter you are replying to or what the guy in the sorting office is more likely to get right. Across the world the 'english' name for a country often one the locals are trying to replace.
wounded hussar. Is it that do you think? I have never heard anyone in England use éire derogatoraly. Soutern Ireland annoys me more but its used more out of convention rather than 100% accuracy, a bit like when people say northern ireland is part of britain when its part of the uk (spliting hairs i know)
I think the offence caused by people saying éire or diddly music comes from the 800 years chip on some shoulders. that if anyone from england says anything about ireland some people will automatically think their having a go. even when they are people enthusiastic about the music/culture/country.
Of course we should be sensitive to the different meaning of words across country boundaries. A Republican, for example, can be an affiliation with a political party (US), a desire to be rid of monarchy (England) and I won't even start about what it means north and south of the border in Ireland.
But diddley music is different. It means the same thing. And whether or not you take the humpf over it is entirely up to you.
Only in the sense that people are indoctrinated to react to certain words in a certain way, regardless of there straightforward meanings. But people should be bright enough to recognise their indoctrinations and rise above them. Indoctrination is not an excuse to take the humpf.
Often, though, and I'm certain that this is the case here, the humpf is a manufactured affectation created to portray a tribal belonging.
Tribal belonging? Eire is what you guys and only you guys call our 26 counties.Ireland is what we call our 32 county country.Its kind of unbelievable that none of you know this.
This website is an odd place for anyone to come with their affectations created to portray tribal belonging, but that's just some people for ya. They are far more likely to portray total pillockry, as demonstrated by this thread. Tribal feelings are best expressed on tribal territory. I didn't call 'em total pillocks, Jeremy. I am just saying they are in danger of portraying themselves thus.
"Its kind of unbelievable that none of you know this."
No it isn't. We are primarily here to discuss diddley music, not the nuances of your country's various appellations, of which we do not have to be scholars in order to sign up here. If it's misunderstandings you and yours are wanting to sort out you could start with your misleading coins and stamps.
well if this is going to turn into a political debate. I am one of the 'we' you speak of.
I don't regard Ireland as a 32 county country. We gave up a claim to that 12 years ago when we voted 94% in favour of the 19th amendment and changed articles 2 & 3.
Article 5 states éire is the official name of the state. it is not something that only english people use. we use it in legal and diplomatic cirlces too. yes on a day to day basis we call it ireland, sometimes Eireann or eire, ould sod etc.
All this political sh1t is really stupid and dangerous. Quit now please. Let this forum be free of political hang-ups and stereotyping. Let's just get on with talking about the music, eh?
I am sorry I reacted.I only want to discuss music but believe me you guys have been a club for quite a while.I have heard the word Pirhannas used to describe the way you can all gang up on session.org.There is nothing I would like more than to discuss more of this but it is inevitable that it would be me that will be suspended and I have got the 3 threads that bothered me off my chest.And Ladies and Gentlemen the next comment will come from Steve who waits in huge anticipation for my every uttering.One thing more I would like to say.I am overwhelmed and delighted with the way the peace process has been taken to heart by all sides. It is a wonderful miracle and when I discuss words and perceptions here it is only words which I always find interesting.
I am a citizen of the planet Earth.
All nationalism and patriotism (including historical resentment of another nation or wotteffah) is just stupid uninformed and faintly ignorant parochialism. Everyone’s culture is just human culture and can all be shared with any human on the planet as all culture is ‘owned’ by all of us! Dig in and enjoy the diversity! Don’t live in the past! Enjoy the moment!
By the way: I felt there was a slight misunderstanding or assumption regarding my ethnicity. I am not an Englishman!
My two maternal grandparents were both born in London (they might both have been North Londoners! Shock! Horror!). Of my paternal grandparents, my grandfather was born in the Elephant & Castle area of South London, my paternal grandmother was born in Corpach on Loch Eil in the Highlands of Scotland. Both parents were born in London, my mother in Paddington, my father in the Elephant & Castle. I was born in Chiswick (next door to the Fuller’s Brewery!). Racially I’m white Caucasian with lots of red hair, beard and freckles tending to light blue on the inside of my upper arms and thighs. I’m an English speaking non-Christian cultural tourist. This is made possible by being a resident native of London.
England, by the way, is the area of the island of Great Britain, mainly white people, rather lacking diversity (compared to London) and outside the M25 motorway/ autobahn/ interstate/ highway (but not Scotland or Wales). Call me British if you really, really have to: by necessity my passport is British (‘Brit-ish’ always sounds like you are similar to a Brit but not quite- in the way you’d say a reel was played ‘fast-ish’ or a late evening was ‘darkish’…).
Used to sup in the City Barge in my misspent student days, which is several decades ago. Is it still there? Born next to Fullers, eh? I hope you got yourself on the flavour panel for London Pride...
Pirhannas? Really? Have you been watching too many American political debates and derived the idea that anyone who disagrees with you must be in cahoots with one another, part of a conspiracy to destroy your fundamental values?
By the way I can't recall anyone (English or Irish) I know who refers to Ireland as 'Eire'.
I've heard 'The Republic','The South' and very occasionally 'The Free State' though the latter was being used mischieviously.It's usually 'Ireland'.
Perhaps you hang around with a particularly low sort of English person.
Like members of the diplomatic corps.
That last bit should have a smiley face at the end btw.
I'm far too hated to qualify to join anyone's conspiracy. This is not helped by the fact that I play diddley music on the harmonica and once owned a bodhran. I'm a tiddler in a pond of piranhas.
Sensibleken - I didn't say the term Éire was offensive. The term would be regarded as 'quaint' maybe - a little oit of touch, perhaps.
But of course, there are people in Ireland who embrace the language fully and would like us to move back to a people that use the Gaeilge in everyday life and I'm sure they are delighted to see it in use.
But sadly perhaps, methinks that day has passed and it's oft noted that there is more Chinese and Polish etc. spoken in modern Ireland in an everyday context, relative to the Gaeilge.
What's this got to do with trad music? Quite a lot, I think, as there are close enough links between the music we play and the Gaeilge.
By reading this thread one might assume this is the most important topic in trad. Having said that, KVMR will be broadcasting the Grass Valley Worldfest over the next 4 days; http://www.worldfest.net/
Ziggy Marley will be playing Sunday night. It may be hot in the sun but folks will be chillin' with Ziggy. ;)
what about Skiddly boo? an aul bit of skiddly boo goes down well of an evening.. Sessibritkan - BnaE is an outmoded and outdated constitution. Unrepresentitive and poorly endowed to deal adequately with many issues in 21st century. Its a long list.
In terms of the national question you refer to the dropping of Irelands territorial claim in Articles 2 & 3 , yet you fail to mention the amendments replacing them, - everyone born on the island of Ireland has the right "to be part of the Irish Nation" (but Article 9 limits this to persons born on the island having an Irish parent). Article 3 declares the will of the Irish people to create a united Ireland, provided this occurs peacefully, and with the consent of the people of Northern Ireland.. And as im sure you know the good friday agreement legislates for such a referendum occuring. Frustrating when people make such direct assertions about a process that is by no means complete. You are a card carrying member of the free state bubble generation I suspect..
Hi miss muligan. nice to see we can have an intelligent conversation without resorting to childish name calling, took me a while to work out sensibritken was directed at me. definetely a pun worthy of a hungover sun sub editor, bualadh bos.
i am aware of the other articles of the constitution but have no idea what your talking about. what i said was we did give up a claim to be a 32 county country. we replaced it with a desire to be one as long as there is consent, thats not the same thing.
I also have no idea what a 'free state bubble generation' is either.
Viva la difference..I think miss mulligan is from Belfast which makes him my countryman in the country of Ireland.sensibleken lives in Eire and does not consider poor oul miss mulligan his countryman.
Oh for goodness sakes - I have probably not even read 10% of this daft thread. Who cares what people call it? Call it Diddley music if you want. Call it fiddle music. Call it trad or "The Music". I really don't care and am not going to take offence. Can't we just call it folk music and be done with it?
If people want to denegrate it let them. They are not worth the effort and it will survive just fine in spite of them. It was never the most popular music to listen to growing up but it didn't stop any of us did it?
Anyway if someone asks for you to play some diddley music then they are not deliberately denegrating anything. They are wanting to hear some music. They are showing an interest whether you entertain that interest or not.
It's elemental. Once you decide someone is causing you offense you will continue to be insulted each time the mechanism is activated. Which is effectively placing your destiny in the hands of those who disrespect you. Which is why I say don't let them. Take pleasure in their foolish attempts to get the better of you.
In a word,simply ~ "Diddle"
Diddley music
Diddley music
Here we go again! I have noticed this term used frequently on this forum.Nobody who loves trad in Ireland would use this highly derogatory term.Here in Ireland it is used by those that have disdain for the music.I am not trying to be confrontational and I know it is only used here by those that love the music .I dont suppose it might not be described as diddley music any more.?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
When you're playing tunes you really don't need words. But it is a fairly accurate term for music which is sometimes lilted with syllable like sounds.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
Not when it is actually an offensive term for said music.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
What's wrong with diddly? It's a very descriptive term for a particular type of music.
If you talk about diddly music, everyone knows exactly what type of music you are talking about. If you just call it 'trad' or 'ITM' you could be talking about anything from sean nos to show bands. You might as well just call it all 'folk music'.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by skreech
Re: Diddley music
It's just another term for the music. Be-bop was originally a derogatory term, now it's a genre.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
I know one person who uses the term offensively. He is the only person I can think of who does this. But to be honest, he can be offensive with almost any word if he chooses to be.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
Random I am not saying anybody here uses it offensively.I know that we are all here because we love the music.I am saying it is a hugely offensive term in Ireland.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
So, it's not the term which can be offensive, but rather how it is used?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
"Nobody who loves trad in Ireland would use this highly derogatory term." Well, that would count out the scores of Irish friends of mine who use it as a matter of course then.
Nonsense. Again.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Diddley music
remember:
diddley - whiskey (lovely shtuff)
diddly - whisky (all sounds the same and is always in A)
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
llig, for the win.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
Ah ethical.Once again you are out of your depth and prove yourself not to know your stuff. If as you say your scores of Irish friends use this term they are no lovers of trad music.Llig you are the most common user of the term and yet you do know your stuff.One question for you so llig.Do you believe me when I state that the term diddley or diddley aye is offensive to trad musicians in Ireland?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
nobody in ireland to my knowledge calls it diddley music, it seems to be called that by michael gill, who I believe lives in Scotland.
most people in this part of ireland call it traditional or irish music.
I always thought diddley musioc was the music of bo diddley, aka ellis mcdaniels, who sang bo diddleys a road runner, and hey bo diddley bo.
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Bo Diddley
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This article is about the singer. For the album, see Bo Diddley (album). For the song, see Bo Diddley (song).
Bo Diddley
Background information
Birth name Ellas Otha Bates
Also known as Ellas McDaniel
Born December 30, 1928(1928-12-30)
McComb, Mississippi, US
Died June 2, 2008 (aged 79)
Archer, Florida, US
Genres Rock and roll, rhythm and blues, blues
Occupations Singer-songwriter, musician
Instruments Vocals, guitar, violin, synthesizer, keyboards, piano, organ, percussion, drums
Years active 1951–2008
Labels Checker, Chess, BoKay Productions, RCA, MF Productions, Triple X, Atlantic
Website bodiddley.com
Notable instruments
Gretsch G6138
Bo Diddley (December 30, 1928 – June 2, 2008) was the stage name for Ellas Otha Bates, an American rock and roll vocalist, guitarist, songwriter, and inventor. He was known as "The Originator" because of his key role in the transition from the blues to rock & roll, influencing a host of legendary acts including Buddy Holly, Jimi Hendrix, The Rolling Stones, and Eric Clapton.[1] He introduced more insistent, driving rhythms and a hard-edged guitar sound on a wide-ranging catalog of songs. Accordingly, he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and received Lifetime Achievement Awards from the Rhythm and Blues Foundation[2][3] and a Grammy Award from the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences. He was known in particular for his technical innovations, including his trademark rectangular guitar.
Contents
[hide]
* 1 History
o 1.1 Early life and career
o 1.2 Success in the 1950s and 1960s
o 1.3 Later years
o 1.4 Bit acting parts
* 2 Accolades
o 2.1 Illness
o 2.2 Death
* 3 The Bo Diddley beat
* 4 Notable cover versions
* 5 Historic marker and other dedications
* 6 Discography
* 7 References
* 8 External links
[edit] History
[edit] Early life and career
Born in McComb, Mississippi, as Ellas Otha Bates,[4] he was adopted and raised by his mother's cousin, Gussie McDaniel, whose surname he assumed, becoming Ellas McDaniel. In 1934, the McDaniel family moved to the largely black South Side area of Chicago, where the young man dropped the name Otha and became known as Ellas McDaniel, until his musical ambitions demanded that he take on a more catchy identity. In Chicago, he was an active member of his local Ebenezer Baptist Church, where he studied the trombone and the violin, becoming proficient enough on the latter for the musical director to invite him to join the orchestra, with which he performed until the age of 18. He was more impressed, however, by the pulsating, rhythmic music he heard at a local Pentecostal Church, as well as an interest in the guitar.[5][6]
Inspired by a concert where he saw John Lee Hooker perform,[7], he supplemented his work as a carpenter and mechanic with a developing career busking on street corners with friends, including Jerome Green (c. 1934–1973),[8] in a band called The Hipsters (later The Langley Avenue Jive Cats). During the summer of 1943–44, he played for tips at the Maxwell Street market in a band with Earl Hooker.[9] By 1951 he was playing on the street with backing from Roosevelt Jackson (on washtub bass) and Jody Williams (whom he had taught to play the guitar).[10][11] Williams later played lead guitar on "Who Do You Love?" (1956).[10] In 1951 he landed a regular spot at the 708 Club on Chicago's South Side, with a repertoire influenced by Louis Jordan, John Lee Hooker, and Muddy Waters.
In late 1954, he teamed up with harmonica player Billy Boy Arnold, drummer Clifton James and bass player Roosevelt Jackson, and recorded demos of "I'm A Man" and "Bo Diddley". They re-recorded the songs at Chess Studios with a backing ensemble comprising Otis Spann (piano), Lester Davenport (harmonica), Frank Kirkland (drums) and Jerome Green (maracas). The record was released in March 1955, and the A-side, "Bo Diddley", became a #1 R&B hit.
McDaniel adopted the stage name "Bo Diddley". The origin of the name is somewhat unclear, as several differing stories and claims exist. Bo Diddley himself has said that the name first belonged to a singer his adoptive mother was familiar with, while harmonicist Billy Boy Arnold once said in an interview that it was originally the name of a local comedian that Leonard Chess borrowed for the song title and artist name for Bo Diddley's first single.[12]
[edit] Success in the 1950s and 1960s
On November 20, 1955, he appeared on The Ed Sullivan Show, a popular television variety show, where he infuriated the host. "I did two songs and he got mad," Bo Diddley later recalled. "Ed Sullivan said that I was one of the first colored boys to ever double-cross him. Said that I wouldn't last six months". The show had requested that he sing the Merle Travis-penned Tennessee Ernie Ford hit "Sixteen Tons", but when he appeared on stage, he sang "Bo Diddley" instead. This substitution resulted in his being banned from further appearances.
The request came about because Sullivan's people heard Diddley casually singing "Sixteen Tons" in the dressing room. Diddley's accounts of the event have been inconsistent.[13] Diddley has stated that he was the first black performer to appear on Sullivan's show, when in fact African Americans had been appearing on the show since 1949.[14][15][16]
Chess 1960
Chess included Diddley's recording of "Sixteen Tons" on the album Bo Diddley Is a Gunslinger,[17] which was originally released in 1960.[18]
He continued to have hits through the rest of the 1950s and even the 1960s, including "Pretty Thing" (1956), "Say Man" (1959), and "You Can't Judge a Book By the Cover" (1962). He released a string of albums whose titles, including Bo Diddley Is a Gunslinger and Have Guitar, Will Travel, were bolstered his self-invented legend. Between 1958 and 1963, Checker Records released 11 full-length albums by Bo Diddley. Although he broke through as a crossover artist with white audiences (appearing at the Alan Freed concerts, for example), he rarely tailored his compositions to teenage concerns.
In 1963, he starred in a UK concert tour with the Everly Brothers and Little Richard. The Rolling Stones, still barely known outside London at that time, appeared as a supporting act on the same bill.
In addition to the many songs recorded by him, in 1956 he co-wrote, with Jody Williams, the pioneering pop song "Love Is Strange", a hit for Mickey & Sylvia in 1957.[19]
Bo Diddley was one of the first American male musicians to include women in his band, including "The Duchess" Norma-Jean Wofford, Peggy Jones (aka "Lady Bo"), Cornelia Redmond (aka Cookie) and Debby Hastings, who led his band for the final 25 years of his performing career. He also set up one of the first home recording studios.[7]
[edit] Later years
Over the decades, Bo Diddley's venues have ranged from intimate clubs to stadiums. On March 25, 1972, he played with The Grateful Dead at the Academy of Music in New York City. The Grateful Dead released part of this concert as Volume 30 of the band's Dick's Picks concert album series. Also in the early 1970s, the soundtrack for the ground-breaking animated film Fritz The Cat contained his song "Bo Diddley", in which a crow idly finger-pops along to the track.
Bo Diddley spent many years in New Mexico, living in Los Lunas, New Mexico from 1971 to 1978 while continuing his musical career. He served for two and a half years as Deputy Sheriff in the Valencia County Citizens' Patrol; during that time he personally purchased and donated three highway patrol pursuit cars.[20] In the late 1970s, Diddley left Los Lunas and moved to Hawthorne, Florida where he lived on a large estate in a custom made log-cabin home, which he helped to build. For the remainder of his life he spent time between New Mexico and Florida, living the last 13 years of his life in Archer, Florida, a small farming town near Gainesville.
He appeared as an opening act for The Clash in their 1979 US tour; in Legends of Guitar (filmed live in Spain, 1991) with B.B. King, Les Paul, Albert Collins, George Benson, among others, and joined The Rolling Stones as a guest on their 1994 concert broadcast of Voodoo Lounge, performing "Who Do You Love?" with the band. Sheryl Crow and Robert Cray also appeared on the pay-per-view special.
[edit] Bit acting parts
His pawnbroker character's offering Louis Winthorpe III "fifty bucks" created one of more quoted scenes in 1983's Trading Places. In the late 1980s, he teamed with Bo Jackson in Nike's famous "Bo Knows" commercials, saying his one line: "Bo, you don't know Diddley!"
In 1998, Bo appeared alongside legendary guitarists B.B. King, Eric Clapton and Jeff "Skunk" Baxter as members of the Louisiana Gator Boys in the film Blues Brothers 2000.
[edit] Accolades
Bo Diddley achieved numerous accolades in recognition of his significant role as one of the founding fathers of rock and roll.
* 1986: inducted into the Washington Area Music Association's Hall of Fame.
* 1987: inducted the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and the Rockabilly Hall of Fame.
* 1990: Lifetime Achievement Award from Guitar Player magazine.
* 1998: Lifetime Achievement Awards from the Rhythm and Blues Foundation and the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences.
* 1999: His 1955 recording of his song "Bo Diddley" inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame as a recording of lasting qualitative or historical significance.
* 2000: Inducted into the Mississippi Musicians Hall of Fame and into the North Florida Music Association's Hall of Fame.
* 2002: Pioneer in Entertainment Award from the National Association of Black Owned Broadcasters, and an Icon Award from Broadcast Music Incorporated (BMI)
* 2008: Although confirmed before his death in June, 2008, an honorary degree was conferred upon Bo by the University of Florida in August 2008.
* 2009: Florida's Secretary of State announces Bo's induction into the Florida Artists Hall of Fame (induction to occur during Florida Heritage Month, March 2010).
In 2003, U.S. Representative John Conyers paid tribute to Bo Diddley in the United States House of Representatives describing him as "one of the true pioneers of rock and roll, who has influenced generations".[21]
In 2004, Mickey and Sylvia's 1956 recording of his song, "Love Is Strange", was inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame as a recording of qualitative or historical significance, and he was inducted into the Blues Foundation's Blues Hall of Fame. In 2004, Rolling Stone ranked him #20 on their list of the 100 Greatest Artists of All Time.[22]
In 2005, Bo Diddley celebrated his 50th anniversary in music with successful tours of Australia and Europe, and with coast-to-coast shows across North America. He performed his song "Bo Diddley" with Eric Clapton, Robbie Robertson and longtime bassist and musical director Debby Hastings at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame's 20th annual induction ceremony and in the UK, Uncut magazine included his 1957 debut album "Bo Diddley" in its listing of the '100 Music, Movie & TV Moments That Have Changed The World'.
In 2006, Bo Diddley participated as the headliner of a grassroots organized fundraiser concert, to benefit the town of Ocean Springs, Mississippi, which had been devastated by Hurricane Katrina. The "Florida Keys for Katrina Relief" had originally been set for October 23, 2005, when Hurricane Wilma barreled through the Florida Keys on October 24, causing flooding and economic mayhem. In January 2006, the Florida Keys had recovered enough to host the fundraising concert to benefit the more hard-hit community of Ocean Springs. When asked about the fundraiser Bo Diddley stated, "This is the United States of America. We believe in helping one another."[23]. In an interview with Holger Petersen, on Saturday Night Blues on CBC Radio in the fall of 2006 [24] Bo Diddley commented about the racism that existed in the music industry establishment during the early part of his career that saw him deprived of his royalties from the most successful part of his career.
Bo Diddley performed a number of shows around the country in 2005 and 2006 with the fellow Rock and Roll Hall of Famer Johnnie Johnson Band, featuring Johnson on keyboards, Richard Hunt on drums and Gus Thornton on bass. But from 1985 until he died, his touring band consisted of Debby Hastings (bass/musical director), Frank Daley (guitar), Yoshi Shimada or Sandy Gennaro (drums), and his personal manager, Margo Lewis (keyboards).
[edit] Illness
On May 13, 2007, Bo Diddley was admitted to intensive care in Creighton University Medical Center in Omaha, Nebraska, following a stroke after a concert in Council Bluffs, Iowa on May 12.[25] Starting the show, he had complained that he didn't feel well. He referred to smoke from the wildfires that were ravaging South Georgia and blowing south to the area near his home in Archer, Florida. Nonetheless, he delivered an energetic performance to an enthusiastic crowd. The next day, as Bo Diddley was heading back home, he seemed dazed and confused at the airport. His manager, Margo Lewis, called 911 and airport security and Bo was immediately taken by ambulance to Creighton University Medical Center and admitted to the Intensive-care unit, where he stayed for several days. After numerous tests, it was confirmed that Bo Diddley had suffered a stroke.[26] He had a history of hypertension and diabetes, and the stroke affected the left side of his brain, causing receptive and expressive aphasia (speech impairment).[27] The stroke was followed by a heart attack, suffered in Gainesville, Florida, on August 28, 2007.[28]
While recovering from the stroke and heart attack, Diddley came back to his home town of McComb, Mississippi, in early November 2007 for the unveiling of a plaque devoted to him on the National Blues Trail stating that he was "acclaimed as a founder of rock and roll." He was not supposed to perform, but as he listened to the music of local musician Jesse Robinson who sang a song written for this occasion, Robinson sensed that he wanted to perform and handed him a microphone. That was the first and last time that Bo Diddley performed publicly after suffering a stroke.[29]
[edit] Death
Bo Diddley died on June 2, 2008 of heart failure at his home in Archer, Florida.[30][31] Garry Mitchell, a grandson of Diddley and one of more than 35 family members at the musician's home when he died at 1:45 a.m. EDT (05:45 GMT), said his death was not unexpected. "There was a gospel song that was sung (at his bedside) and (when it was done) he said 'wow' with a thumbs up," Mitchell told Reuters, when asked to describe the scene at Diddley's deathbed. "The song was 'Walk Around Heaven' and in his last words he said 'I'm going to heaven.'"[32]
His funeral, a four-hour "homecoming" service, took place on June 7, 2008, at Showers of Blessings Church in Gainesville, Florida and kept in tune with the vibrant spirit of Bo Diddley's life and career. The many in attendance chanted "Hey Bo Diddley" as a gospel band played the legend's music. A number of notable musicians sent flowers, including: George Thorogood, Tom Petty, and Jerry Lee Lewis.[33][34] Little Richard, who had been asking his audiences to pray for Bo Diddley throughout his illness, had to fulfill concert commitments in Westbury and New York City the weekend of the funeral. He took time to remember Bo Diddley, his friend of a half-century, performing his namesake tune in his honor.[35]
After the funeral service, a tribute concert was held at the Martin Luther King Center, also in Gainesville, and featured his touring band, The Debby Hastings Band, and guest artist Eric Burdon.
In the days following his death, tributes were paid to him by George W. Bush, the United States House of Representatives, and an uncounted number of musicians and performers, including Eric Burdon, Elvis Costello, Ronnie Hawkins, Mick Jagger, B. B. King, Tom Petty, Robert Plant, Bonnie Raitt, George Thorogood. Robert Randolph and the Family Band and Ronnie Wood. He was posthumously awarded a Doctor of Fine Arts degree by the University of Florida for his influence on American popular music and in its "People in America" radio series about influential people in American history, the Voice of America radio service paid tribute to him, describing how "his influence was so widespread that it is hard to imagine what rock and roll would have sounded like without him." Mick Jagger stated that "he was a wonderful, original musician who was an enormous force in music and was a big influence on The Rolling Stones. He was very generous to us in our early years and we learned a lot from him." Jagger also praised the late star as a one of a kind musician, adding, "We will never see his like again.[36] As his bass player Debby Hastings said: he was the rock that the roll was built on."[citation needed]
The documentary film Cheat You Fair: The Story of Maxwell Street by director Phil Ranstrom features Bo Diddley's last on-camera interview.[37]
His stage name is echoed in the name of Bo, chosen in April 2009 by United States President Barack Obama's family as the "first dog".[38]
In November 2009 the guitar used by Diddley in his last-ever stage performance sold for $60,000 at auction.[39]
[edit] The Bo Diddley beat
Bo Diddley touring Japan with Japanese band Bo Gumbos
Bo Diddley was well known for the "Bo Diddley beat," a rumba-like beat similar to "hambone", a style used by street performers who play out the beat by slapping and patting their arms, legs, chest, and cheeks while chanting rhymes.[40] Somewhat resembling "shave and a haircut, two bits" beat, Diddley came across it while trying to play Gene Autry's "(I've Got Spurs That) Jingle, Jangle, Jingle".[41] Three years before Bo's "Bo Diddley", a song that closely resembles it, "Hambone", was cut by Red Saunders' Orchestra with The Hambone Kids.
In its simplest form, the Bo Diddley beat can be counted out as a two-bar phrase:
"One and two and three and four and one and two and three and four and..."
The bolded counts are the clave rhythm. "Shave and a haircut, two bits", another clave derivative, also fits, as does the non-musician's count of "one-two-three one-two".
His songs (for example, "Hey Bo Diddley" and "Who Do You Love?") often have no chord changes; that is, the musicians play the same chord throughout the piece, so that the rhythms create the excitement, rather than having the excitement generated by harmonic tension and release. In his other recordings, Bo Diddley used a variety of rhythms, from straight back beat to pop ballad style to doo-wop, frequently with maracas by Jerome Green.
Also an influential guitar player, he developed many special effects and other innovations in tone and attack. Bo Diddley's trademark instrument was the rectangular-bodied Gretsch nicknamed "The Twang Machine" (referred to as "cigar-box shaped" by music promoter Dick Clark). Although he had other odd-shaped guitars custom-made for him by other manufacturers throughout the years, most notably the "Cadillac" design made by Tom Holmes (who also made guitars for ZZ Top's Billy Gibbons, among others), Diddley fashioned the square guitar himself around 1958 and wielded it in thousands of concerts over the years. In a 2005 interview on JJJ radio in Australia, Bo implied that the design sprang from an embarrassing moment. During an early gig, while jumping around on stage with a Gibson L5 guitar, he landed awkwardly hurting his groin.[42] [43] He then went about designing a smaller, less restrictive guitar that allowed him to keep jumping around on stage while still playing his guitar. He also played the violin, which is featured on his mournful instrumental "The Clock Strikes Twelve", a 12-bar blues.[44]
He often created lyrics as witty and humorous adaptations of folk music themes. The song "Bo Diddley" was based on the lullaby "Hush Little Baby". Likewise, "Hey Bo Diddley" is based on the song "Old MacDonald". The rap-style boasting of "Who Do You Love", a wordplay on hoodoo, used many striking lyrics from the African-American tradition of toasts and boasts. His "Say Man" and "Say Man, Back Again," both of which were later cited as progenerators of hip-hop music, share a strong connection to the insult game known as "the dozens". For example: "You got the nerve to call somebody ugly, why you so ugly the stork that brought you into the world ought to be arrested".[45]
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Diddley music
What the f ? Whats going on ? Now I believe ye all .. This guy is a cracker.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Big Tab - are you up in Norn Iron? I know from friends up there the term diddley is used often by those who would choose to belittle the music. However, elsewhere in the world, the term does not seem to carry the same negative intent.
I do find it funny how often we debate appropriate names of this music on the mustard board. Now matter what you call this stuff, somebody out there always seems to have a physical reaction. "ITM - Diddley - Trad - Irish folk - etc" Nobody know what to call it.. LOL
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Diddley music
don't you mean.....
diddley - whiskey (nice, but too sweet and always in D)
diddly - whisky (more of a kick but sounds the same to some folk)
Anyway, ethical is right, this is nonsense. I might be described as a feckin Scottish git - doesn't make the word Scottish offensive, does it?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by bogman
Re: Diddley music
Ah. So, I have a different opinion from big_tab. Therefore, I am:
a vulture
out of my depth
know nothing
don't care about the music
... oh, and apparently none of my friends care about the music either.
If only I could be as all-knowing as you, big_tab. My hero.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Diddley music
I'm glad Bo's bio got archived here before Wikipedia goes down.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Diddley music
No Jussa..I am in Co Clare.It has ,probably since the early nineties been used by people to belittle the music in one word all over the country even in the media.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
major cross post. Thanks for the pish copy and paste yz. Good practice for scrolling like your usual posts.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by bogman
Re: Diddley music
[/sarcasm]
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Diddley music
Cross posted.
Yeah, this is silly. It's humor. People that take things too seriously don't get humor. A shame, really.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Diddley music
ethical I dont want to row . I love you,ok? Llig ,oul boy,you still there?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Indeed, Gaelic society is built on sarcasm.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by bogman
Re: Diddley music
You are caught up big time on humour and being funny swfl and bogman but can I sincerely tell you and calling trad music diddley or diddley aye is 100% not funny.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
I don't call it diddley/diddly myself but I can't for the life of me find the word offensive. Millions of people can't stand diddle but I couldn't care less. It works for me and the folk I hang about with.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by bogman
Re: Diddley music
100% not funny ... to you.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
... but I don't really find it funny either. It's just a spade is a spade. I do find it funny though if someone takes offence to it.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
Llig do you believe me when i state that it is an offensive term here?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
... and YZ should get Phantom Button to design his next album cover. YZ could just e-mail him random links to wikipedia and PB could could just flow it all in, no questions asked.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Petty music
"Mona" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVRtQUTd7Gk
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
Many derogatory terms, some substantially more offensive than what we are talking about here, are also used in an affectionate, ironic manner within the community itself. Various people on this board use it thus and I suspect that they are not about to stop, so you're probably going to have to learn to live with it, big_tab.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Diddley music
No problem john.I know that.I do find it interesting since llig has chosen not to answer my question that people use it knowing it is exactly the derogatory term for Irish music in Ireland.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
I believe that many people take offence to things that are not offensive
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
big_tab is correct, at least in my experience. Diddly (with or without the e, it still sounds the same) music is what Irish people who neither understand nor like trad music call it. And it's used in a patronising way. It's a cultural thing. You can shout all day about whether or not it actually IS offensive, but I don't see what's hard about accepting that it might be used offensively, or taken offensively in places other than the places where you hang out.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by pavlf
Re: Diddley music
that was a general 'you' rather than a particular 'you' btw
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by pavlf
Re: Diddley music
Maybe there is truth in that. On an earlier thread I maintained that only on session .org do people treat the bodhran so badly.I now maintain that only on this forum would you hear the term diddley used to describe trad.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
I suppose it can be something similar to the feeling some have in their gut when hearing tunes referred to as songs, or sessions being performances. Now, if that's not a load of mustard I don't know what is.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
You can use any word offensively. You can take offence at anything.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
big_tab, might I humbly suggest that you switch to decaf.
If that doesn't work, I have a few other suggestions:
1. Lighten up.
2. Adjust your tone to be less belligerent.
3. Pay attention to what people are saying to you rather than treating everything everybody says as a personal attack.
In short: be civil.
Thanks.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Jeremy
Re: Diddley music
This is the word that traditional musicians in Ireland are offended by llig.The word you use so often even though I know you mean no offence.However since it is used so patronisingly in Ireland as pavif has explained is there any chance that you could stop using it?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
I suppose it's too much to ask that we all recognize that words change their connotations across borders, and that we understand that a term that is locally used as a slur might be an affectionate tag in the speaker's dialect?
From where I'm sitting, this thread feels like a case of someone going out looking for offense where none is meant. I'm sure that's not what's going on, but it does feel that way from here.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
Ok Jeremy..I apologize for any lack of civility.I cant lighten up though as this music is my life and I make no apology if I am too passionate.I will take on board what you say.I am grateful to you for providing this forum and I enjoy the banter. I would hope though that session.org would not be all about fun and humour and there would be a place for those of us who like a tussle over this music we all love. I appreciate all you do and bow to your request.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Now my great friends dont think I am running away sulking.Coincidentally I have a few music things I have to do. any offence caused to anyone was not intended.This decaf is starting to work. Mellow...See y all laterxxxxx.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
here in Appalachia, we have alot of Irish Americans. I was up in a neighborhood bar, in an Irish American neighborhood, talking to a friend I hadn't seen in a long while and I told him I had been playing Irish fiddle and this was his reaction...
"God, I hate deedly music"
that was the first time I ever heard the term, and it was definitely meant to be derogatory and was being used that way
...just giving anecdotal evidence in support of the original poster.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: Diddley music
...and what's going to be tomorrow's big-tab discussion, I wonder......
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by TomB-R
Re: Diddley music
Oops, I do apologise. Round here, using a dash instead of an underscore is considered very insulting. An inadvertent mistake I assure you.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by TomB-R
Re: Diddley music
I'm sure no offense was meant, TomB_R...
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
"Cainntearachd, Diddling & Chin Music "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFJ42v_apyY
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
One of those folks in the clip Random posted actually used the word 'diddle' while they were 'diddling'.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Diddley music
I feel the need to post a favorite joke of a friend of mine:
A man walks into a chip shop and says, "I'd like a steak and kiddely pie, please."
Young lady behind the counter says, "Excuse me?"
"I'd like a steak and kiddely pie."
"I'm sorry sir, what did you say?"
"I'D LIKE A STEAK AND KIDDELY PIE!!"
"Do you mean 'steak and kidney' pie?"
"I said kiddely, diddle i?!"
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by mumhain abu
Re: Diddley music
Didn't Sharon Shannon call a tune the Diddley i pod?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Diddley music
I know, it just wouldn't make sense to hear mouth music with someone voicing 'trad, trad, trad' or 'aye - ti - imm'
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Xxx
cross-posted.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
The term jazz (jass) was originally used, (by some accounts) to describe the activity enjoyed in brothels. Musicians were frequently retained to promote the 'good times' atmosphere. As a specific genre emerged (as did a different genre in accompanying silent movies), it became known by the name that nurtured it.
One would not tend to state on one's resume, or in polite company, that they were 'jazz' musicians.
Years later, the word is used by everyone, from airline names to trite expressions (all that jazz); including a description of a style of music. The fact that the name means wildly different things to different people does not change the value of the music. Those who play and listen to the music know what it means to them, and often they don't even attempt to explain it to 'civilians'.
"A rose by any other name..."
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Diddley music
Yay Jeremy! Thanks for stepping in and being clear about things. I think this helps a lot.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Diddley music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GPxkpjCvWI
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by HK
Re: Diddley music
Random, no one took offense to sessions being called performances. But some of us resented being repeatedly called "delusional" and "in denial" simply because we view our own sessions as sessions, not performances. That's apples and oranges to this discussion. No one is telling big_tab that he has to call this music diddley....
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Diddley music
I dislike the use of the word diddley, but only because it runs contrary to my education. I was taught that words ending in 'e' that have a 'y' added to turn it into an adjective lose the 'e', so--fiddle, fiddly; wobble, wobbly, etc. To take the word as an insult is a bit much, I think. Just glance heavenwards and tut. You are wasting your time, I suggest, expecting people you have never met to change their ways at your behest.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by gam
Re: Diddley music
There is certainly nothing new in calling the music Diddley music. When I was a kid in the forties, in the absence of instruments people use to diddle (dye del) the tunes for dancers at house dances. I remember one old lady, whose son was a priest and home on leave from Africa, trying to conduct a dance and lilt the tune at the same time. Much to the amusement of the dancers, she incorporated the instructions and the tune to her daughter Mary Ann as follows: Mary Ann, Mary Ann, catch the priest by the skideree diddle dum.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Free Reed
Re: Diddley music
"this music is my life and I make no apology if I am too passionate."
If so, perhaps it would be good for you to broaden your horizons and perhaps help moderate your behaviour as it has, it appears, lead you into numerous confrontations that are and have proved to be ultimately futile.
I have often wondered why it is you do what you do. Given that this thread is going over 'old ground' I can't help but wonder about your motives when posting this 'discussion'.
Are you deliberately trying to provoke a row? From where I'm sitting it sure looks like it. One man's noise can be another man's music - what you call it is merely incidental.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by john knoss
Re: Diddley music
I suppose that some people are less sensitive to the context that a word is used in. I like the affectionate use of the word "diddley" on this forum. However I have had conversations with people who called it "diddley eye" disdainfully and it's quite annoying - I presume because the word is a caricature of the sound of the music. It would be like talking with electronic music buffs and saying "Yeah I don't mind hearing the old "oompha oompha beep beep" music from time to time when I'm on a night out.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Quinno
Re: Diddley music
The motive was to provoke Michael into a row and Michael has instead behaved with grace and humour. So consider yourself sussed, tabby.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
Is this discussion about Jack Diddley?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by halfwaythere
Re: Diddley music
Or diddley squat?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
What was it the Liverpool Ceilidh band used to sing?
'Hi ti tiddly i' or something along those lines...
Sure, Steve, it was to provoke a row. The lack of response is revealing in itself.
I'm still wondering 'why?' It may have to remain one of life's unsolved questions. Anyway, I'm not holding my breath at this end.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by john knoss
Re: Diddley music
Hi john.The lack of response was because I cant be at the computer all the time! It was not to provoke a row.It interests me greatly that only one poster or maybe two realise that this is an offensive term in Ireland.This crew that I am enjoying being part of is definitely a new experience for me .We have a common love for the music .Maybe it is culturally we are a thousand miles apart.I have been reading this forum for about 5 years.Sometimes I love it and more times it is frustrating to read .So to explain my rash of posts they are the result of years of lurking.I dont think I have any more controversial posts coming but I might.I appreciate the right to annoy some of ye and I appreciate the post from Jeremy to set me straight and not to suspend me.I am happy to have raised this issue because some of you might not have realised that in Ireland its a derogatory term.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
If a tourist were to listen to a session and say "I love that diddley music, I wish I could play it", would that be derogatory?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: Diddley music
No bogman.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Here in the NE USA, I have only heard the term diddley music used by people who play it, and who use it in in an affectionate manner. Perhaps it is some of that self deprecating humor that was discussed in another recent thread.
Perhaps, as oldstrings has pointed out, like the term jazz, the term diddley is losing its negative connotations along the way.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Diddley music
You see al I dont live in the NE USA..I am stating it is an offensive term towards trad in Ireland .Its possible people here dont believe this but if they do and still use it I would wonder why.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
I have Irish friends (musicians)--from Cork, Ennis, and Galway--who have all used diddley endearingly. It may be offensive to some, but not to all. And it's at least a good few steps removed from some sort of ethnic slur. Unless you're really thin-skinned about this sort of thing. Like some people here have protested when others call sheet music "the dots." Sorry, but it's ink on paper we're talking about, or in this case, tunes. Not like we've insulted someone's genetic heritage.
That said, I prefer calling it simply "the music." That's what we're talking about on this site, eh?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Diddley music
Well Will I have to believe that .I have never heard a musician use the term endearingly.Therefore I take you dont believe me when I tell you it is only used in Ireland by those that have disdain for the music.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
I believe you, just letting you know that the negative connotations didn't seem to make it across the pond, and since so many thesession.org members are from the USA, perhaps that is one of the reasons why the term gets bandied about here without that negative aspect.
You obviously feel strongly about it, but you are also obviously in the minority on the issue.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Diddley music
In some parts of the world, the word "pants" refers to the things you wear under your pants. It's possible that some people don't realize this, but I do. And you know what? I still refer to my trousers as "pants". Because that's what they're called around here, and it'll all be okay.
There's a flute player in this neck of the woods who plays Dever the Dancer, and he calls it Humors of Whiskey. And you know what? It's okay, it's really not that big a deal.
There are people who go outside and light up a fag, and some of them are well aware that in other parts of the world that expression would mean "set fire to a homosexual man" - and you know, they still use the expression, and nobody has yet been harmed by it.
Let it go, tabby. Let it be. It'll all be okay. If this is the biggest thing that you have to worry about in this world, you live a charmed life. There are species of fish that my niece will never taste, thanks to some bastards and their habit of driving around and keeping oil companies in business. "Torquemada" Gonzales is still walking around loose, as is Henry Kissinger. Phil Ochs is dead, Townes van Zandt is dead, and Donovan is alive, so there's no justice in this world. People still use Microsoft products, ferpetesake. If knowing that someone out there is using the wrong term to refer to diddly music is what keeps you up at night, you might really consider worrying about something more interesting or something more meaningful or something more fun.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
I am definitely in the minority.Are there any Irish posters here at all?It would be interesting to hear what they would say on the issue.Its not the end of the world Al but when someone uses the term diddley or diddley aye to describe the tunes music lovers cringe.I am just trying to impart this and the intersting part is whether people believe this is true or not.Will obviously doesnt as he has Irish friends who describe the tunes with this term.Thats fine.I do feel strongly about it but thats only on this forum .
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Cross post.I 've let it go Jon.Just chatting away to Al now.The battle is over and I stand defeated. It is obviously just me that finds it offensive anyway.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
It obviously has negative or even derogatory connotations in some places, apparently not in all places. Maybe in England, Scotland and Norn Iron it doesn't have negative connotations. Maybe it's an English-language import to Ireland over the years! Depends on one's perspectives, I'm guessing.
Anyway, it's great going to sessions in Ireland (I speak only from my experience in the west, Clare more particularly), ye hear great music, nicely played, there's no time taken up with bodhran or jokes, and you hear some great bodhran playing as well, you don't have to worry about whether it's to be called diddley music or not because people don't seem to use the term and I'm pretty sure they take don't like it, there's a marked lack of pretentiousness, great craic and very friendly and accepting people there.
I don't know what it's like in England though.
Is it ok to say that.
Sorry.
Go the tabber.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Thank you flynner! I appreciate greatly your encouragement on this lonely cold forum!!
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
...plenty of typos: plenty of jokes, just not many bodhran jokes at all, as far as I could hear.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
I know what you mean, tabber. Welcome to this forlorn fray.
Someone's got to do it, man.
Up the banner!
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
If someone came into a session in Co Clare and said they wanted to hear some diddley music they wouldnt last sh*tting time.If you are ever over again let me know Flynner and we can play some tunes.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
I will be back, tabber, you can bet on it; maybe even for a very long time next time, that's my goal anyway.
It'd be a privilege to play tunes with you, tab, and the craic it'll be mighty. I'll be looking forward to that now.
Keep it up!
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
When you were in Clare before what sessions did you hang out at?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
I happened upon a lot of the session, that that man Chrishty Barry is at, and sometimes the man Michael Kelliher was there, and Blackey O'Connell and others, and yer man who is the son of Gus O'Connor of the pub there, the Australian man who makes the flutes in Ennis half the year, and your man with the accordion,- the man from Ennistymon, and at Davy Spillane's session in Lisdoon, mainly during the various nights of the week; and I could not often go past Kevin Griffin's playing there, he is great, and a lot of visiting musicians are passing through there and he makes them very welcome. Ennis was great but I could not get there so often because I was staying away over in north west Clare.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
I hope my english is ok there, tabber, do you think so.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
oh, jeez, and the sessions at Kilfenora of course, at Linnane's and across the road were flyin' it.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
big_tab, if you noticed, I said I prefer to call it the music. I respect that some people on this site (and not just you) find diddley offensive. This was brought up several years ago, and I made note of it.
But that doesn't negate that I have musician friends born and raised in Ireland who don't find it offensive and use it endearingly.
Here, you're on an international forum peopled by folks who love this music. I'd say cut them some slack and perhaps even be happy that you have potential friends around the globe who would buy you a pint and pull up a seat for you at their sessions---if you don't entirely alienate them here first.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Diddley music
would he have to start calling it diddley first, will?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
These I saw a lot in Clare, as well, tab, Orla Harrington was around. Lovely playing.
(Do those call it diddley, do you think?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaBgOlv6Grw
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
and there was yer man:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG5JJoUFCs4&NR=1
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
The problem with discussing a term like 'diddley' on a website is surely that it's offensive capacity is entirely related to the inflection of voice and the context in which it is delivered and by whom. I've heard it used in a disparaging way or maybe belittling manner by mostly curiously people from the North. But I've also heard it used in a friendly and affectionate way - it all depends on the tone of voice and the context - 'Jaysus - not more of that diddley crap' or 'that was a lovely bit of diddley' etc. etc.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by the wounded hussar
Re: Diddley music
Before this thread I never realised anyone could find the term "diddley music" offensive.
I know quite a few people in England who call Irish traditional music "diddley music" or "diddley-diddley music". None of them is putting it down. As they are unaware of any official name for it they simply use the onomatopoeia that describes the rhythm of a jig.
A pet peev of mine is when I've played hornpipes, waltzes and Carolans all night and people say, "I enjoyed the jigs and reels", as if all instrumental Irish music had to be either a jig or a reel.
But I don't find it insulting or offensive. They *LIKE* the music. They just don't know the right words. To take offence where none is intended (and where, in fact, praise is intended) I would have to be a total horse's arse.
I know feck all about engines. My mate Andrew is a fine, time-served mechanic. He's invested years in learning his trade, but he doesn't get offended when I thank him for fixing "that round bit that went wrong". He just accepts that I don't know what it's called. I'm not insulting him and his mechanically-minded brethren. Far from it, I am respectful and grateful.
And he's not a touchy knobhead.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by buddhuu
Re: Diddley music
"... and YZ should get Phantom Button to design his next album cover. YZ could just e-mail him random links to wikipedia and PB could could just flow it all in, no questions asked."
I liked this post so much it made my mouth water slightly. Thanks llig...
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Diddley music
Thank you buddhuu.Did you say you live in England? I know nothing of England.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
absolutley hate it wen people say " didely eye" !!!!
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by banjovi
Re: Diddley music
Flynner,Thanks for those links .You met all the right people.If you went up to Christy Barry and said "Play a piece of diddley music"you would be putting your life in danger.Anyway almost universally here I have been made aware that I am very muc h in the minority.All I can say is that session.org is its own little world and thats ok . On many many issues though ,believe, it is at odds with the wider trad community.I
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
ah, it was great craic with the lads there, tab. Jeez, I even got away with playin' the bodhran on a couple of tunes with 'em. It was a little touch and go at Kilfenora for a second or so, but it was ok with them too.
You may be in the minority here, tabber, but in Clare you are not, and there is more music to be heard there than on the ol' mustard anyway.
Tis its own little world here, it is quaint, a little sad, and there is good information for learners throughout these pages, but it is interesting to say the least to see who it is who seem to be the gatekeepers here, and where they come from.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
It's a particular kind of person that takes of-fence, particularly when none is intended. It's a particular psyche that is on the look out for offense.
Some cultures, Italians and Japanese for example (and I apologise for the generalisation, but you have to generalise too a certain extent if you are discussing culture) have whole elaborate routines of politeness that seem to be designed around a desire to trip people up, just so offense can be taken. As a generalisation, I would not say the Irish are like this.
It's individuals out for a fight:
"You looking at my bird?"
"no no, sorry, I wasn't, honest."
"What? My bird not good enough to look at?"
big tab's post is not a bleeting complaint about him being a minority who's been offended by nasty foreigners. He's tried to make it sound like this, but it's not.
It's him saying, "go on, go on, I dare you, say that again." Moves a little bit closer ... "SAY THAT AGAIN"
Moves too close ... "S A Y T H A T A G A I N"
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
The gatekeepers indeed Flynner.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
"of-fence" ? Don't read anything into that, it's a typo. should be "offense"
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
Flynner are you by any chance a quiet bloke with longish fair hair who sometimes played the bodhran and spent over ayear in Co Clare at one stage ?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
"gatekeepers"? What a pile of toss. There is only one gatekeeper
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
The main gatekeeper on the session.org speaks and we should all bow.Llig you are wrong.Wrong. Wrong.It is not an Irish versus foreigner thing.The music has been international for 40 years now.All nationalities mix and play the music together and it is exciting and exhilirating and great for the music.My simple premise is that you and a few others here continue to use the term diddley to describe the music and I was wondering if you would consider maybe not if you believe me when I tell you it is offensive in Ireland.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
no, tab, that was not me - but it sounds great - and hair is not my long suit anywa'. I'd be pretty quiet though.
It was great craic at O'Connors Doolin too, with the landlady there, Teresa, who will brighten up any party. What a great crowd of people there.
tab, I believe they do not address that question, because they do not know about it, or they do not know *why* it is offensive; because you are getting every other answer but the one to that question.
llig, in my direct experience with the Japanese people, the "politeness" which you point to is a very genuine cultural trait, it is not something tricky to trip people up. Where do you get that sort of stuff from? It is a very very insular view.
Really, I think some of the problem here in this thread, and on this site generally, is that there are very definite cultural differences between players of this music, I would go so far as to say, in my opinion only, broadly along the lines of the English-speaking-cultural areas and the Irish ones.
I think there are some profound differences that people don't seem to be aware of, just as many seem to be absolutely totally unaware of the potentially offensive connotations of the word diddley in Ireland in particular.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
I've never called it diddley, but I intend to from now on... I've just decided.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Diddley music
Go on Dow ! You are a crazy wild rebel!
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
from the same post:
"It is not an Irish versus foreigner thing."
and
"you and a few others [non Irish] here continue to use the term diddley ... believe me when I tell you it is offensive in Ireland.
It's hopeless
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
he did not say "non Irish", llig. You said that.
Why don't you answer his question?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Amazing thread, and quite thoughtful at times.
(Too bad it started off with someone taking on the robes of spokesman for ALL of Ireland - that is simply embarrassing, IMHO. Has your PM been notified of this?)
Pardon my cross-posting, Ladies and Gents, but language and better communication is of great interest to me. Re. terminology, I wonder - am I the only one who perceived the term "diddly" as being more than affectionate minimizing, but also as a subtle reminder to us not take our shared hobby TOO seriously? (That definately includes its use by Llig)
Just wondering, is all.
I am, perhaps, not the best qualified to comment, as, for me, there is more to life than Irish Traditional Music and Dance. While my life would be missing much without it, it is not my motive in all I do or pursue.
Thoughts?
Mr. Gill? Did I read you even half-right on this?
FWIW.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Piece
Re: Diddley music
Yes Rook, all right.
enlyke flynn, I think I've answered all big tabs questions. Which one are you refering too?
(and I know that the "politeness" of the Japanese is a very genuine cultural trait. I was pointing out that to an outsider, it seems as though it's designed so thay can take offense. I was pointing out that this is the opposite of bigtab, who is merely bruising for a fight)
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
Again you misrepresent me.Deliberately. You quote me and put in your `"Non Irish".I didnt say that .The only divisiveness is that i say it is offensive in Ireland .Its probably cringeworthy for some musicians from other countries too when they read your use of it on this forum.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
i cannot see that tab is cruising for a fight whatsoever. He is putting something to you which you do not answer as it happens.
This is his question, once again:
"I was wondering if you would consider maybe not if you believe me when I tell you it is offensive in Ireland."
Quite politely and diplomatically put, I would have thought.
Funny that, I am an "outsider" in respect to Japan, and I have never thought that the cultural politeness there was designed "so they can take offence". I think it is what it is; probably the same in Irish culture as well, I do think. Circumspect perhaps, but not contrived to trip anyone up.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
My favorite t-shirt, seen on a true-blue Irish-American, said "I'll diddle dee dee till I die."
I don't think it's offensive. Aside from the obvious double entendre, she wore it to show her love of the music.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Marc C
Re: Diddley music
Oh, come on, are you people still on this one?
Why is it that the longest arguments are over the things that nobody actually cares about?
(and you'll never convince me that tabby actually cares about this, he's just having too much fun baiting people)
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
In the halcyon days of trad in sixties London, the pubs closed spot on at 2pm on Sundays. The crowd from the Favourite, who would be in full swing at around that time, often spilled out on to the pavement outside the pub and carried on playing tunes. Local residents often called the police about 'The Bleedin' Paddy Music' interrupting their Sunday afternoon peace. In fact I often heard that expression when setting up for a gig in certain pubs. As soon as some of the customers saw a box or fiddle appear on the stage the shout went up "Oh for f.....ks sake, not more bloody Paddy Music". Now some musicans could be really offended by that. I found it amusing and often started playing Knees up Mother Brown as a reel....I even remember Jimmy Power starting off a gig in a pub with a selection of marches, the first tune being the Seekers hit 'World of our own'....I think some musicians nowadays take life too serious.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Free Reed
Re: Diddley music
jk, I am sure that tab does in fact care about this, quite passionately I would say.
it is curious that in some quarters it is regarded as funny and endearing to use an expression like "bleedin' paddy music", but woebetide someone who would describe an english genre (like bleedin' morris dancing for feck's sake), as "bloody pommy music" or something else as innocuous as that.
What is good for the gander, is apparently not good enough for the goose.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
"...or that boring bloody pommy game cricket; which they can't play anyway".
Why isn't that funny?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
B*LL*CKS (said as a morris dancer
)
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by David50
Re: Diddley music
This website has hit rock bottom with this thread, which I am bloody dismayed to see is still going. Classic trollery.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
Don't tell me bigtab didn't infer the suggestion that it's the non-Irish that say it.
I think that before this discussion, I may have considered not using the term here. But certainly not now.
I could put that diplomatically if you'd prefer:
I would consider maybe not using the term diddley if I believed it to be offensive in Ireland. But as I believe that many people take offence to things that are not offensive, I believe the onus is on them to stop being so feckin precious and get their lives into perspective.
(And by the way, I'd say the same thing to a Japanese person who took offence at me inadvertently drinking my tea out of the wrong side of the cup.)
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
I agree steve, I'm gonna have to leave it.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
you see, folks, I hope this thread points it up to you for once in your lives - what *you* might consider to be good old English cultural and linguistic in-your-face, call a spade a spade directness, is actually regard by a lot of cultures as just plain arrogance and ignorance and red-neck behaviour.
I wouldn't assume that just because a culture speaks English that it must then necessarily hold the same cultural beliefs and values as the English culture. I wouldn't like to judge another culture by the standards and norms of my own.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
OK, so long as it's moved on from diddley, I'll continue ...
No. I flatly refuse to respect a culture merely because it is a culture. There are certain aspects of humanity and respect that should reign across cultures. And the fact that many cultures make a big thing of eschewing the larger humanitarian values is not merely an indictment of those cultures, but more importantly, an indictment of those individuals that support it.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
I never said it was a non irish issue.It was Irish people who use it as a term of abuse that I was referring to.But it has gone on far too long here.I am not looking for conflict here when I post a thread.I do certainly have very different views on the music world and I would hope that by throwing up my views it might at least get some people to reexamine their positions.I force no one to participate in my posts and I am grateful for the tussle and it has forced me to reevaluate my own position.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
@ enlyke flynn: Is that why you you deliberately took the p!ss out of a native Australian instrument's name for your previous username here? You're just in this for a laff, aren't you? How is anyone supposed to take you seriously?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
it was quoting a PhD study in australian indigenous linguistics, as an alternate view to the established "English" name for the instrument; if you call that taking the p*ss, that's probably fairly predictable.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Steve as usual you contribute nothing.Start a thread.Let us know if you have any singlle thought on trad music instead of castigating people.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Correct me if I’m wrong, but there are only two cultures, so far as I know, that have English as an official language that have also been predominantly catholic for approaching thousands of years and which have native cultures which are themselves older than the English language: Ireland and Malta – but I stand to be corrected on that.
Do you not consider that cultural mores in those countries may be very far different to those of England, even though there is a shared language?
These are profound differences in how people from different cultures view communication practices and linguistic labels.
I really think that people from solely an English cultural perspective need to be a lot more sensitive to these differences, in the interests of better relations. If they care to, of course.
The English cultural view of everything, and it's apparent acute sense of self-importance, can become e.x.t.r.e.m.e.l.y tedious. Maybe that is why a lot of people might watch here, but not contribute.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Oy gewalt. If this is the sort of craic you find in Clare, I'm glad I'm in Boston.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
well, anyway, we're heading back towards the tube from Cecil Sharpe House, home of The English Folk Dance and Song Society, having been to I really can't remember what performer and sort of music precisely, when this drunk approaches us, and asks, gesturing back towards C. Sharpe, "Ha' ye' bin dooin' the diddley-diddley-doddley ?" and we quite understood him and answered "Yes" which seemed to satisfy all concerned with no confusion.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Diddley music
...in England.
No, jk, it would not be the craic you find in Clare, it is the craic that you find right here.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Why do you guys keep referring things like "cultural mores in England" when not all of the posters -- i.e. Michael -- you are addressing live there?
That's quite hilarious, actually, since you are going on ad infinitum about being offended by terms you find degrading to your culture, while most Scots I have met get pretty cheesed off when people call them English or fail to grasp that Scotland isn't England.
Just sayin'.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Diddley music
it might be the perspective and the communication practice rather than the location.
you can understand people finally get fed up; I can.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Huh?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Diddley music
think about it.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Ha pete, that's priceless. At first, I read that as:
"There was this drunken tube, from Cecil Sharpe House, and we were heading back to him after some gig somewhere and he asks us, gesturing something to do with C#, "Ha' ye' bin dooin' the diddley-diddley-doddley ?" and we quite understood him and answered "Yes" which seemed to satisfy all concerned with no confusion.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
Did think about it. Doesn't make sense. No surprise, really, par for the course.
Oh, sorry, didn't mean to come off all English with the golf reference.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
think again.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
I do think there's plenty of good golf courses in Ireland too. In case you didn't know.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Are you not more likely to have a golf reference in Scotland?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
toss me that caber
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
Hadnt really thought about it being an English thing.Was thinking it was more of a session.org thing.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
"Steve as usual you contribute nothing.Start a thread.Let us know if you have any singlle thought on trad music"
A downright lie. I've contributed a huge amount to this website about the harmonica in Irish music so a bit less of the "as usual" crap if you don't mind. You won't have to struggle with seven or eight different user names to find all my contributions either. And I respectfully suggest that this thread is hardly a suitable vehicle for contributing "thoughts on trad music." It's a bloody good vehicle for contributing thoughts on your illusory taking of offence over something and nothing and that's about it innit. If you want people's thoughts on trad music start threads which are actually about trad music.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
"more likely"? I don't know, have you got a scientific calculator on you?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
not that it matters a sh*te, but in my experience when people at home call it diddley music it's usually derogatory, just my 2cents don't give a sh*te about cultural differences etc.. and I don't really give a sh*te what people call it. but there it is.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Luidín
Re: Diddley music
The people I've heard using the term "diddley" most often have all been Irish. As far as I know it started there and the only reason anyone uses it elsewhere is because the Irish got them saying it.
If the Irish have in fact moved on and don't like it any more (as the Scots have dropped the term "Scotch"), it's going to take a while for the rest of the world to catch up, and it might never do.
I've never personally met an Irish musician who was offended by it, though.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: Diddley music
Thank you Jack. Let sanity prevail.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
Oh, English, Scottish, what's the difference? Apparently, if it's not Maltese, it's crap. After all, they've been Catholic for thousands of years, or something.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
get off the decaf, jk.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Have these two done any of the things Jeremy has suggested?
"1. Lighten up.
2. Adjust your tone to be less belligerent.
3. Pay attention to what people are saying to you rather than treating everything everybody says as a personal attack."
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Diddley music
These two? It's at least five of us!
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
he is just posting a simple question. Why is it that if some people here don't like the question, the op is told they should "lighten up"?
I see there have been some more Irish posters now on this thread who seem to think that the term is derogatory - in Ireland.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Jack. That seems reasonable.We only have experiences of w here we live.If you go to the original post it might be noticed that it was polite.Its grand .I was only asking.Interesting stuff ensued.Its interesting that I maintained it was a term of derision used by Irishpeople who hate the tunes (there are many) and people didnt seem to see that and it ended up somehow that I was anti English.It is also interesting that bar a short input by Hugo Chavez there was noone to say i had a point or didnt from Ireland.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
people from an English language or cultural perspective here seem to have the opposite view. Why, simply on that basis, should people who don't share their view, be required to "lighten up"?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
"it might be the perspective and the communication practice rather than the location" in the context I can only interpret that as meaning "it sounds like the sort of thing an English person would say".
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by David50
Re: Diddley music
that last was to swiffle, tab.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Crossed. I was right.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by David50
Re: Diddley music
swfl..I think I have taken on Jeremys advice.You probably notice when I am giving stick to you and your 5 or 6 friends who have been posting here for years but people have been pushing my buttons too.Enlyke is well capable of arguing his own case but I was the only one that Jeremy talked to not everybody who has the timerity to disagree with you .
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Playing in a Irish band we have the following as part of our strap line on our web site" ... We are 5 eejits that bring trad, popular and modern toe tappin' diddly, diddly Irish music & songs to pubs, clubs, doos 'n festivals in North Wales, Cheshire, infinity & beyond......." This for us clarifies to the unwashed that want to book us that they will get jigs, reels hornpipes etc. rather than the English "hey neddy neddy" and do not see it as being offensive in the slightest. I'd even go so far as to say I'm proud if asked to play a diddly diddly tune. So there. Don't be too precious about names just enjoy it for what it is. The best music in the world...!!!
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by weebag
Re: Diddley music
the bould tabber, a gentleman and scholar he clearly is.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
very good, weebag, that should get 'em in the door.
Where are you? In England is it?
Great.
Why don't you take a band tour to Ireland with that line?
LOL.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Well thank you Flynner .a chara.Neither of those traits unbelievably are appreciated here where they consider my English dastardly and my manner a tad abrupt.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
...you see, the man is a complete diplomat - who has been pushed to the limit by watching the carry on here for years and years. Can you not get the Chrishty Barry on here to help to clarify some issues?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Or Kevin Burke.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
I think I might try Seamus Tansey to help with my crazy theory that In Ireland calling the music diddley aye is considered offensive.Yep Seamus might take the pressure off me.Maybe Tony Mac Mahon rings up his mates and says "Lets go play some diddley".No that would be too easy.I will plough my own furrow!
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
'It is also interesting that bar a short input by Hugo Chavez there was noone to say i had a point or didnt from Ireland.'
Well, I think you'll find Luidín's from Waterford.
I've lived in Ireland for the last three years and, before that, had visited the country many times over the previous quarter century. Partly because of my work I've visited numerous sessions and have spoken to many musicians.
Random referred to lilting in the second post on this thread and it strikes me that, if 'diddley' is genuinely demeaning, then the likes of Séamus Fay wouldn't get many bookings.
I can recall hearing or reading the term 'diddley' on only a very few occasions (and never in the North). Of these the only time I can remember a derogatory usage was in some pub down in Tipp (or somewhere) when a drunken punter demanded that the musicians stop playing 'that diddly sh*te' so he could sing a hurling song or something similar.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Diddley music
So gentlemen, what's the resolution?
Do you two stay on here arguing with everyone until we all agree with you and ban the use of the word?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Diddley music
right so, macC, you think the term is not used in Ireland much at all, and one of the very few times you have heard it used, it was in a derogatory context. Ok. I think that's what the op is positing, isn't it.
No, swfll, I think tab will be waiting for some self-appointed gatekeepers on this site to answer his question.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
what a waste of time.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Diddley music
No resolution swfl.There doesnt have to be.Its a discussion forum and we can discuss for as long as we want. "You two" Flynner we have been lumped together because it seems we are the only two musicians in the whole wide world who dislike the term diddley.Session.org is a beautiful place.Mac Cruiskeen the story about the drunken punter really makes my point.The absolute antagonism of many Irish people towards the music.They invariably use that term.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
it's a long way to the top alright, yz.
We have at that, tab, and we are sent to purgatory at the session.org for conversion.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Oh, no, big_tab,
That's not the point which I was making!
In fact there were two points:
1) that the word 'diddley' is not used very often, so I don't understand the fuss;
and,
2) the only time I've heard it used derogatorily it was by a drunk who wanted to hold court.
You cannot possibly extrapolate from these that this lends support to your belief that the term 'diddley' expresses 'the absolute antagonism of many Irish people towards the music'. Indeed, I'd love to know how what evidence you have to support your claim that a significant number of Irish people detest their native traditional music.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Diddley music
after you, tab.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Or James Kelly....etc lol. Never known of anyone to take offence to the D word in the real world. But maybe the Irish musicians I know are just dafties and I'm Scottish, I'm not even from Clare have only one personality so what the feck do I know
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: Diddley music
Right, go ahead tab, so Flynn knows what to agree with.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
Tab, you and Flynn are lumped together because Flynn seems to ride around in your pocket saying "yeah, yeah, you tell 'im tabby".
Hey, Flynn, why don't you go ahead and post something while tabby drinks a glass of water, that's always a good one.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
Right its sorted.Bogman has never known anyone to take offence in the real world.They dont use it in Leitrim.Its a complete figment of my imagination and I am an eejit for not liking its usage.Everybody loves the term diddley.Sorted. thanks for coming on board and finishing this bogman.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
third time lucky, jk, is it.
Would you like a decaf with that thesaurus?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
"Mac Cruiskeen the story about the drunken punter really makes my point.The absolute antagonism of many Irish people towards the music.They invariably use that term."
No big_tab, it made no point at all. There is no offence inherent in individual words. The offence only comes from the sentiment behind their use in a specific situation.
Suppose 'diddley' had been consigned to the naughty draw (where we keep words like 'poof' and 'cripple'). That punter would simply have said "Stop playing that ITM sh*te". And that would have been just as offencive. The offenciveness comes from the sentiment of the sentence, not the word 'diddley'.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by skreech
Re: Diddley music
bt, I said 'I've' never known people to take offence. Doesn't sort anything. Plough away with your alter ego.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: Diddley music
Flynn, you're live in Australia if I'm not mistaken? I'm sure you can distinguish between "You stupid, clumsy ba****d!" when you knock someone's beer over and "Howya doing you old ba****d" when you meet an old friend. Same word, completely different intent, the first derogatory, the second affectionate. When people use the word 'diddley' on this forum it's analagous to the latter example. I struggle to understand how anyone could seriously take offence to it when viewed in that light.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Diddley music
and I didn't say everyone loves the term in Scotland, and I didn't call you an eejit - in this incarnation anyway
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: Diddley music
"ITM" - oh no; I hate that phrase, so passe. It's Gaelic music surely.
johnsamuels, I can of course make that distinction. So what about: "all those old pommy ba****ds on the session.org who keep referring to Gaelic music as diddley. Good to see you again."
Can you distinguish that one?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
For a supposed newcomer, big_tab, you seem remarkably well-informed about my county of residence, especially since no mention of it is made in my biog (and *none whatsoever* in this soi disant discussion). I never referred to Leitrim so why have you?
And you haven't answered my question - 'I'd love to know how what evidence you have to support your claim that a significant number of Irish people detest their native traditional music.'
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Diddley music
Precious little affection in that phrase, Flynn, so I'll take it as derogatory.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Diddley music
John if you and some of the others who are hopping off me on this and prolonging the thread read the original post.I have stated that there is no malice in its usage here.I suggested that since Irish people use it with derision towards the music it might be nice if we even considered curtailing its usage here.It wasnt actually meant to be confrontational.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
bogman plays with a band called peat bog faeries, here they are,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_TdfGa8ALQ
down this way, county cork, diddley music would be considered mildly derogatory, but I wouldnt waste my time getting stressed out about it, in the broader perspective of life, it is not as important as relatives or friends getting cancer or having strokes or heart attacks
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Diddley music
Sorry mac Cruiskeen how can I give that evidence.I know Irish people in their thousands dont like the music.I dont mind.The ones that love it are on the increase.You mentioned you were from Leitrim about a week ago on a thread. no offense at all to you.I have been reading here for years.You know and love the music.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
big_tab do you consider the use of the term diddley,as it is typically used on this site, to be derogatory toward Irish music or those who play traditional tunes? IMHO it's usage on this site is just the opposite of that.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
Speculate all you like yz. I used to play a bit of football, that had nothing to do with Irish music either. One thing is for sure though, this is you "playing" Irish music. If I am ever heard playing Irish music like that will someone please shoot me.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: Diddley music
Oops, here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXsYa0Benws
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: Diddley music
are ye readin' dots there?!
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Random I do not consider the term diddley as used on this site as derogatory.Absolutely not.Everybody on this site loves the music in some way.Again my suggestion was that since it is derogatory in Ireland people might consider not using it.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Considered. Rejected. Done. Go home.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
that's it, tabber.
Up Rineen!
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
that's west Clare hurlin' isn't it, tabber.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Hey Jon I am home .I'm relaxing.People are still on the thread chatting.Its no harm really.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Rineen is near Miltown Malbay.It was the scene of a terrible massacre by the Black and Tans during the war of Independence.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Fair enough then. Let me see if I can convene the rest of the session.org conspiracy cabal and we'll consider this motion you have posted.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Diddley music
Big_tab, it would be grand if anyone who may be put off by the term *diddley* consider (& you could help communicate this) "Everybody on this site loves the music in some way."
Fair play?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
ah, I have that wrong then, tab.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Not sure how I could communicate that Random.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
"I know Irish people in their thousands dont like the music.I dont mind."
I'd have to agree with tabby there - your average Irish citizen is quite indifferent to trad. It's probably viewed in a slightly more benign way than the Gaeilge - but not much. If fact, most people would rarely consider it - too busy watch reruns of American soaps. They wouldn't know a jig from a reel if it bit them on the arse and sure it all sounds like the same old diddley stuff anyway. But that's the way of it.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by the wounded hussar
Re: Diddley music
I am assuming you have witnessed people taking offense at hearing the term diddley music. Isn't this what you have been saying?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
Yes Random.Every single musician I know knows what people think when they describe music as diddley or diddley aye.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Did someone just agree with me on something?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Wait.
Tabby says the use of the term *isn't* derogatory here on the mustard board, only in Ireland. And yet the mustard board isn't *in* Ireland any more than it resides any place. But we shouldn't use the term?
Talk about elitism. He's saying: "My culture trumps all yours. Use only words I approve." That's really pathetic.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Diddley music
I don't think he is saying that, will. He is saying, on my reading of it, that people on this board may not mean it to be derogatory (although some might, who knows), but that it is a derogatory term in some contexts, namely in Ireland.
I think he is just trying to point out the hamfistedness of using a term like that really. No offence meant.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Below is what I typed after seeing wounded husar's post;
Cross-posted. O.K. I get it now. What big_tab is saying is that thousands of people, in Ireland, consider Irish traditional music with derision & will superficially refer to it as diddley music, but with little or no understanding of the music. So, the term is used quite offhandedly, just as others on this thread have described. Yet, on the other hand there are also thousands of people (in Ireland & elsewhere) who love the tunes & refer to this as diddly music. Those thousands+ likely have considered that some do refer to Irish traditional music with derision, are quite aware of this, yet continue to love the tunes regardless of term used ... diddley or any number of other names.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
Will .You never fail to amaze me.We are all as one here as people interested in trad music.Use the term diddley if you want.I just thought since it is offensive to some you might stop.If you want someone to start a conflict over Irish musicians versus other countries you have the wrong man.I hate that sh*t and have already said so.What I suggested is simple and clear.It is simply incredible that you can take that nonsense from it.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Random My contention is that absolutely no one in Ireland who love the tunes uses that term.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
You may be mistaken, big_tab. Please consider the possibility.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
more or less; except that the term is probably a linguistic import from some places where it historically and/or currently still has a derogatory connotation. If that is so, I would expect that the word would be roundly disliked by people in Ireland who do like the Gaelic music, and needless to say, those people probably would not use it. That's what tab is saying in a nutshell. I think he just wants people to realise that it can be an offensive descriptor in some contexts, and perhaps better form not to use it, perhaps here.
Very reasonable I would have thought.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
my last re random's.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
I will random but if someone comes into a session tonight and starts talking about diddley music hes not going to get laid in the music pubs.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Yep, what you've said is disturbingly "clear."
"Use the term diddley if you want.I just thought since it is offensive to some you might stop."
That's what you've said, over and over. And your entire basis for it is that it's offensive to the minority in Ireland.
And myself and many others here have answered back: We're not in Ireland, and we're not the majority of folks who do dislike or disregard this music. We're a world-wide-web forum for feck's sake.
What you seem incapable of hearing is that a world-wide board of Irish traditional music lovers is *not* going to bow to your sensitivities just because you live in Ireland.
My great-uncle got his music in Roscommon and Galway, and he brought it with him to Brooklyn, New York. And he played his fiddle only in the family home because simply being Irish wasn't widely or well tolerated outside the neighborhood.
I live in Montana USA, so I frequently hear and see people making fun of the music I play. It gets called things *a lot* uglier than "diddley." And it seems the world over, session players are pestered by requests for Orange Blossom Special or Thunderstruck or the latest pop crap off the radio. So get off your high horse and wake up--all of us here are in it for the music. No one is going to disparage it, no matter what words they use. We may not be on the same island, but we damn well sure are swimming in the same water.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Diddley music
big picture, big tab ... you said "No one in Ireland" not just your anecdotal experience of Ireland.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
IMO, its offensive to the majority of irish music players , who live in Ireland
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Diddley music
Will .That was a great post.Seriously.We might find some music stuff we both like as time goes by.There was great passion and integrity there.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
yz, is lilting never also called diddlin'? & presumably also diddley music?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
Tabby and enlyke sure like to speak on behalf of all Ireland. And make claims they cannot possibly back up.
The term "diddley" comes from mouth music--it's not an English or ethnic word, it's just a string of syllables that fits the dense rhythmic structure of the music. ***Irish*** lilters say it over and over and over again.
Yes, self-appointed disparagers of the music turned it into an insult (which is why, as I noted way above but tabby never acknowledged--he'd rather just keep arguing--I prefer not to use the term and simply call it "the music"). But people can belittle you only if you let them. Everyone on this web site takes pride in playing this music. Michael's invested more years of his life playing it than tabby claims in his own bio. So have I. As they say on this side of the pond, chill out dude.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Diddley music
I don't use the word around Irish born musicians. A few Belfast born players gave me quite a histroy lesson a few years ago regarding their experiences playing growing up, and how the word was used to belittle them, their culture, and their music.
It reminds me of the time my brother went into a pub in the Falls Road and asked for a Black-n-Tan. He got quite an earful from the locals. Irish pubs in America don't blink an eye about advertising Black and Tans as a beverage, but back in the land where B-n-T's ran rough-shod over the locals, it's still raises bad memories.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
~
'Chill out dude', that works. ;)
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
big_tab, if someone who clearly enjoyed being in a bar where the music was played used the term within earshot of a session isn't it more likley that they would shrug it off as a mistake by a stranger than get upset ? Someone, maybe you, might get into a conversation with them and explain that people didn't use that term around there. One on an irritation scale how does it compare with being asked for the Titanic or Riverdance tune ?
I am aware that some bigoted types could make a big deal of it of course. But is that common ?
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by David50
Re: Diddley music
Will I am lying on the couch here totally chilled.You and others keep coming back for more .Why dont you just ignore my ridiculous untrue post?I also dont give a bollix how many years Michael(who I presume is llig) or anyone else have invested in the music.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
David I think the people who use the term here know it is derisory so explaining anything would be futile.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
We finished ? I have to go musicing soon.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
I just wanted to say how much pleasure I get from playing DIDDLEY DIDDLEY DUDLEY DOO DAHH and DIDDERLEY DIDDERLEY DIDDLEY WANG BANG music. I also rather dig DIDDL-EYE DIDDL-EYE which is the West Midland’s special variety. I know loads of people who diddle DIDDLEY, DIDDLY and DIDDLY DIDDLY DUDLEY. I was in the pub the other day DIDDLING away on the DIDLY DIDDLY music along with loads of other diddly-maniacs! This DIDDLY DIDDLY music is something else! All this DIDDLEY DIDDLEY is making me widdley! If not piddle! WIDDLY WIDDLY DIDDLY DOO DAH! That’s a good old tune! Some tunes of course aren’t DIDDLEY they are DIDDLE DIDDLE D-EYE DAY. Not to be confused with Klezmer which is probably more YA HA DEEDLE DEEDLE BUBBA BUBBA DEEDLE DEEDLE DUM whilst being BIDDY BIDDY BUM all day.
Meanwhile away in Diddley-Land, Bo is plainly singing about Irish Trad...
Diddley diddley daddy, Diddley diddley daddy. Bo diddley, bo diddley here’s our scene
Oh! Here comes some cartoon octopus from the 60’s playing Rakish Paddy (apparently on the alto sax and electric bass): SQUIDDLY DIDDLY, SQUIDDLY DIDDLY, SQUIDDLY DIDDLY, SQUIDDLY DIDDLY, SQUIDDLY DIDDLY... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/Squiddly_diddly.jpg
Meanwhile Ned Flan-diddly-diddly-ders arrives: Well, if you're talking about root beer, I plead guilt-diddily-ildly as char-didily-arged.
A Good DIDDLY DIDDLY To everyone.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Diddley music
Wow, I've been attacked at least twice already in this thread and I haven't even contributed. Welcome to another typical session dot org thread.
So BT raises a legitimate question and Ethical plants seeds for ad hominem with his arrogant dismissal of BT's point as "nonsense." And then things flare up in the usual way.
~~~
So anyway, I'll respond to the OP. I have wondered what people in Ireland who play and love the music think about this term too. So far we have only heard from people outside of Ireland, except for BT, so I'm still waiting for any corroboration.
As a Yank myself (possible derogatory term) my first experience with the word came when I was sitting at the bar at O'Reilly's Pub here in San Francisco and over the bar's CD player I heard what I thought was a track from Sweeney's Men. I asked the barman about it, a Dubliner, and he said, "Don't ask me, I hate that diddly crap." Since then I have heard it and used it not as a derogatory term, but more of what I thought was cute or humorous... affectionate almost. But not living in Ireland I have no idea whether it is used the same way amongst Irish people there who love the music.
I have been calling the part of the summer music camp where the Irish trad is played "Diddly Diaville" and I was thinking of making a t-shirt about it as well. Now I'm having second thoughts after the point BT raises, and I'm waiting to see if it's corroborated by other Irish nationals. If I have missed responses from other Irish board members to the OP please point me to them.
Thanks BT for raising this question.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Diddley music
I looked the musical sense of "diddle" up in the OED. The first use they found for it was from John Skelton in 1503 - probably not very complementary (and not clear who it was about), but then Skelton hated everybody, the Scots in particular (he was the sort of guy who could start a brawl in a phonebooth and would have fitted in just fine on this forum). Later uses were mostly from Scotland, and tended to be neutral in a flippant sort of way.
It doesn't seem to come from "diddling" - maybe the other way round. It was just a word that rhymed with "fiddle" and meant "playing tunes". There is a selection bias here, since if you're writing a poem that needs that sort of rhyme you probably aren't in reverent mode.
None of the OED cites appears to relate to Ireland.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: Diddley music
Skelton is great musician but I had no idea he was so old
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by leoj
Re: Diddley music
'So far we have only heard from people outside of Ireland, except for BT, so I'm still waiting for any corroboration.'
Utter rubbish - check back through the thread, Jack!
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Diddley music
Wow, still at it, it's 5:30 EST new England.
Trolling successful, wind-ups hit their mark, the original Poster and his faithful companion busily rubbing their two surviving grey cells against the grain of all good sense.
Shame on all of you -
right now, off to bed.
All of you.
I mean it.
Now.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Piece
Re: Diddley music
You see a thread started by a trolling post which is now 237 posts old and you are, somehow, insanely drawn back to it. So you post to it again, fully realising as you do the sheer futility of it all. It's a kind of unreal, post-insanity syndrome I think...
Oops, sorry. Just daydreamin' again...
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
[238 now. Uranium 238. Or is that Uranus (or mine). God, it's late. Will tabby ask ME why I'm up late like he asked Michael?]
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
Steve its definitely past your bedtime!
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
MacCruiskeen, I did review the thread and I didn't see any Irish people living there who chimed in to either corroborate or deny what BT asserts. It's a big thread and I said I might have missed them if they were there, and I asked to be pointed to the comments if anyone saw them. Telling me to check through the thread isn't going to help... I already did that. So far, it looks like we've only heard from people outside Ireland.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Diddley music
Will Harmon likes to say "Tabby says..." So I'll refer to him as "Willy" from this point forward.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Diddley music
Its ok Phantom.I enjoy the lads willy and stevey!
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Both the wounded hussar and luidin are in Ireland, apparently natives.
Not that it matters, for the points enumerated by many above.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Diddley music
Jack, do your own homework. There are two other Irish people who've chimed in. Find 'em yourself.
And it's "Willie."
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Diddley music
heh, self cross post.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Diddley music
Yikes Phantom! They dont like you either.You must know a lot about music.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
"I enjoy the lads willy"
Thank Christ he left out the apostrophe (as usual) is all can say.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
I can say
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
Steve ,it was good but ye messed it up!
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Look who's bloody talking.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
Ok... so we have 3 Irish people represented on the thread then.
Here we go again! I have noticed this term used frequently on this forum.Nobody who loves trad in Ireland would use this highly derogatory term.Here in Ireland it is used by those that have disdain for the music.I am not trying to be confrontational and I know it is only used here by those that love the music .I dont suppose it might not be described as diddley music any more.?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
I've also heard it used in a friendly and affectionate way - it all depends on the tone of voice and the context - 'Jaysus - not more of that diddley crap' or 'that was a lovely bit of diddley' etc. etc.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by the wounded hussar
not that it matters a sh*te, but in my experience when people at home call it diddley music it's usually derogatory, just my 2cents don't give a sh*te about cultural differences etc.. and I don't really give a sh*te what people call it. but there it is.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Luidín
So it appears that BT's point is consistent with the other two, for the most part, except that TWH says he's heard it used in an affectionate way as well. But I'd say that BT was close enough to the truth, according to the few comments from his fellow Irishmen, and certainly didn't deserve the abuse and attacks for having this insight from all of the others who don't even live in ireland and have really only visited... if that. BT didn't claim that no one in the world uses the term, he qualified it as being in Ireland saying, "Nobody who loves trad in Ireland."
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Diddley music
thinking back on it again, the references I have heard to the word as being derogatory were in the context of Belfast. Just saying.
It is from those particular references that I have extrapolated to its use elsewhere, that it is meant to be derogatory, including in England, and elsewhere of course.
But certainly in Ireland the republic, it is quite clear to me that it would be meant and taken as a derogatory comment there.
Good man yerself, tabber.
Keep it up!
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
not sure though, maybe the reference was in respect of orange day marching music, not irish trad.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Diddle
Rhymes......... with.................. Riddle
And .............a Little ................Piddle
Makes ...................................a Puddle
of p*ss
If ...............................I Miss...................
.......The Pot.................Fear Not
Ye Rancid Floor
For........................
This puddle ....................Is not Much More
Than All the p*ss
Which....................... Has Been
Spilled .........................
Here ................................
Before.....................................................................!
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Diddley music
PB: you accuse me of using "ad hominem" in saying that the point made that "nobody who loves trad in Ireland would use the term" was "nonsense". I do wish you'd restrict your use of pretentious language to phrases you understand. I attacked the idea, not the man.
The reason I did this is because I know it's nonsense. I know loads of Irish musicians, in Ireland, who use the term, and don't particularly think about it. b_t then said that these people obviously don't love the music. I, and they, would find that remark very offensive. Not to say, inaccurate.
[btw I am aware of slightly different connotations in Northern Ireland, which is a whole other ball-game.]
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Diddley music
Phantom, I wouldn't claim to be representative of trad players in Ireland, no more than tabber. But I am for my sins, a native and I should think the term 'diddley' is by and large used in a derogative/ condescending way by the general public - how derogative depends on tone and context as I noted above.
What I find amusing about this thread is that there was a very similar one a few months back about 'plastic paddies' with the positions reversed - most of the people here 'defending' the term diddley were complaining long and hard about the term plastic paddy!!
Personally, I don't have a huge problem with either because I know where they're coming from. One thing I've found useful in life is not to take things too seriously - it's good to be able to laugh and poke fun at yourself. And the Irish are experts in deflating people, back stabbing and taking the p*ss generally, so I think old tabber might be best to calm down and have a laugh at it.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by the wounded hussar
Re: Diddley music
That sounds fair hussar.If you revert to the op you will find me calm.Even the most ardent foe here would admit that offense can be taken from the term.Ethical lives in a music world that is alien to me and as yet there hasnt been a single Irish correspondent to say there is no truth in what I say.It is a different argument to say that people should feel comfortable using it here where it is not derogatory.Hopefully I have contributed in a small way to make the term stick out in a sentence for the odious term it is.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
The discussion here of "diddly music" reminds me of other "slang" that may have other meanings or at least be interpreted differently depending on the context in which the term is used. For instance, in this country the word "nigger" originated as a racial slur but in recent times the term has been appropriated by many African-Americans and the meaning has been altered--but only when a black person is referring to another of the same race. Otherwise the word retains it's meaning as a racial slur. So, the use of "diddly" in the context of a bunch of folks who love the music is one thing. Used by outsiders as a put down the meaning is quite different.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by leoj
Re: Diddley music
This forum isn't Ireland. It has its own subculture and its own local use of language. Any trad lover from Ireland who sees the word in a thread will quickly understand from the context that it's not being used in a derogatory fashion. It think we should credit them with the intelligence to be able to do that.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Diddley music
Nearly in complete agreement john.I think we all cringe every time we see it written on a trad music forum.Nobody Irish has stated otherwise here yet.Its a horrible term for the music.Do you use it John?
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
that may be so, johnd, but in that case they will possibly never know that it is offensive in some contexts, places and usages, and it would be important for them to know that; especially, I would think if they ever go to Ireland, which might be quite likely considering they play the music. It is no good dropping into the scene there and inadvertently putting everyone offside immediately. Same as any other cultural faux pas.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
I've used it lots in Ireland. It's especially perfect when you turn up in an unfamilar small town. You can go into any bar, order a pint and ask the barman where the diddley music is and he knows exactly what you're on about. Try asking him where "The Music" and he points you to the juke box. I've never tried asking for the "ITM", And can you imagine asking for the "Tim"? But I have tried asking for the Traditional Irish Music and got sent to a song session.
Yes, it's a great word. It's perfect. Especially if the barman you are asking can't stand that feckin diddley sh*te, which is more than likely. He'll still know where to send you ... and ... you've made friends with the local barman by being on his level.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
I personally like the term when used in a jokey fashion and I often use that way at home. I don't think I've ever had occasion to use it here or at a session that's not to say I wouldn't. But, yes, it's important to be aware of cultural differences and whilst I doubt whether this thread will stop anyone using the word then it does at least have some value in that regard.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Diddley music
if you're carrying a fiddle or banjo case, and you ask where the session might be, wouldn't they get the same message? Unless they think there's something else in the fiddle case!
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Yeah, he'd probably get you. But "diddley" is completely unambiguous, and as I say, if the barman can't stand diddley music, which is more than likely, that's the term he'll recognise and probably use himself.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
I would never use it, especially there, because it's as likely someone will not like it, there would be a very high probability of saying it to someone who will take offence because of it's connotations perhaps elsewhere in Ireland in particular.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
...besides that, I just don't like the term, the way in which it seeks to onomatopoeically "claim" or label the music in an English-language cultural context. I find that abrasive in some inherent way. It annoys me.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
A lot of things annoy me. But I try not to claim that it therefore annoys an entire nation.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Diddley music
Some sense from leoj:
"So, the use of "diddly" in the context of a bunch of folks who love the music is one thing. Used by outsiders as a put down the meaning is quite different."
I wouldn't have thought that anyone would disagree with that.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Diddley music
what, by saying, through an implicit statistical extrapolation that Scotland doesn't like it when "people call them English or fail to grasp that Scotland isn't England."
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Silver spear doesnt read the poet either.It annoys the music community.I am out of this thread now you will be glad to hear.Will try to avoid conflict and discuss the tunes more .Thanks for the company on this thread.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
"I think we all cringe every time we see it written on a trad music forum."
Speak for yourself. I don't cringe when I see or hear it. I'm rather fond of the term actually and have been using it more and more in a wholly affectionate way recently. My friends who hear me using the term know that I love diddley music and they wouldn't for one millisecond think I was trying to be derogatory. You're trollishly trying to make a mountain out of what isn't even a molehill. And you can occasionally play a nifty triplet on the harmonica by saying "diddley" into it. So, to me, it literally is diddley music. Personally I hate the term "trad" for diddley music, a term used frequently here by that jig fellow as I recall. But I'm not about to start a thread about it.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
Try reading what people actually write rather than what you believe they wrote. I think I specified "most Scots I have met..." That implies that there may be people I've met who don't give a feck and that there are quite a lot of people I haven't met who may or may not give a feck. I'm not speaking for an entire nation but rather a small subset of people in it who's views may or may not be representative of the majority of people in it. Unlike you, who have repeatedly claimed "People in Ireland think.." as if you know what every single person in Ireland thinks.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Diddley music
Jumping in here as another irish person. I don't find it offensive at all. Same way I dont find being called a Paddy offensive.
Its just a word lads. It doesnt really matter
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by sensibleken
Re: Diddley music
I'm half-Irish and I don't half find it inoffensive.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
"*as if* you know what every single person in Ireland thinks" is an implied statistical extrapolation that you are taking that is not justified by a phrase such as "people in Ireland think ...(whatever)"
He is saying that people in Ireland do in fact think that the word is derogatory. He lives there, he is well into the music scene there for years probably, he hears what people are saying around him, he knows the place, and he is capable of extrapolating from that fairly significant sampling. Unless you don't believe a word he says.
I don't use the term, it strikes me as an example of cultural colonialism or the like. I don't go around saying that either, I just don't use the term, and I don't like the sound of it. It sounds naff to me.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
"Fairly significant sampling." Ha bloody ha. Then reveal to us his sampling techniques. How many people did he interview? How did he select the sample? What steps did he take to ensure that his question wasn't a leading one? You're clutching at straws now, mate. Of all the unconvincing posts in this unconvincng thread that one shirley takes the biscuit.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
If it were some sort of "cultural colonialism" I think I'd be with you, enlyke. But, as someone said above, I think the term came out of Ireland and has spread around the world from there. There's no doubt some people use it and mean it in a derogatory sense. Other people, including some Irish people, use it in an affectionate sense. It might sound naff, but I just don't think it's a big deal.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Diddley music
it would only be a big deal if you were saying it in your musical company in Ireland and they took offence - I think that's what he is saying. At best it sounds naff, at worst it could be offensive.
I would say, Steve, that he has heard enough views on the word to establish a valid enough size sample. He is entitled to extrapolate from there on his own judgment. If you're not happy with his "sample size", ask him, I don't know what it is; for fek's sake. There are a lot of musicians in County Clare though, I would have thought.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
why would I be clutchin' at straws, Steve, when he has already won the argument, done and dusted, and departed?
that's my last word on the matter anyway.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Okay, he's won. Does that mean you're going to stop arguing now?
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
There was never an argument in the first place in my view anyway.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music, without shame
It has perhaps been 2 years since I heard a writer on National Public Radio telling a story about singing "Dixie" with his band one night & then being inspired to buy a pickup truck with a confederate flag decal on the back window. I have searched for the story online, but have not been able to find it again.
The writer is an African-American who lives in the south U.S. One night, while playing with his band, a heckler yelled out for him to play "Dixie. At 1st he cringed, but then he realized he actually considers it to be a beautiful song. He sang it slowly, with all his emotion. The heckler was left slack jawed.
As the story proceeds he found an ad for a pickup truck with a large confederate flag decal & decided he would buy the truck. When they met in person the other guy didn't know how to respond. The guy selling the truck told him perhaps the flag could be scrapped off. He said, "Oh, that's such a nice flag. It's the Brother's Freedom Flag. I love it!" He bought the truck. IMHO this is pure poetry & justice ~ a black man with no shame driving a pickup truck in the deep south with the Brother's Freedom flag on full display.
When someone wants to make you cower, you don't have to.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
"If you're not happy with his "sample size", ask him, I don't know what it is; for fek's sake."
But you're happy to defend his completely unfounded claims! Weird.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
I don't think they are unfounded.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
I'd love it if Jeremy did one of his automatic censorship things and made it that any time anyone wrote diddley, it came out as ITM. Reading this thread would be a hoot. I've just tried it with the first few posts, it's fab.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
Gentlemen, I suggest to you that this is futile. Three hundred posts later, we find out that there was apparently never an argument, but as long as anyone posts here, flynn will argue with them.
("No I won't!"
"There, you see?"
"See what? Just that I contradicted you doesn't mean I'm arguing with you."
"Yes it does."
"No it doesn't!")
Okay, as long as anyone posts in this thread, flynn will contradict them without any hint of a rational argument to support his views, correction noted.
I suggest we all just back away, so maybe the new comments list will show something other than this thread. Who knows, maybe there's something actually related to diddly music that we can talk about.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
Diddley, John. Diddley.
remember:
diddley - whiskey (lovely shtuff)
diddly - whisky (all sounds the same and is always in A)
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
I stand corrected.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
Jon, Michael, John.
(Only kiddin'. Just thought I'd change the subject).
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
Jeez, I even screwed that up now. Jon, Michael, Jon.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
ok, we're all going to just back away slowly now, nobody turn their back and we're going to go off now into other threads.
Watch now....on the count of three we will wake up and not remember any of this.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Was that his sample size, a count of three?
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
Hush, Steve, we're almost done here. One wrong word and the whole thing will blow up again.
Okay, flynn...
one.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
steve, stop disrupting the trance!! or you will *never* get out of here!
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
two...
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
three...
now f*k off to other threads will yis, and make yerselves useful.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
and three.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
Will I go again Steve?
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
you are doooomed, steve. You could be here forever..moohahahaha!
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Reclaim Diddley...
I think you chaps (in Ireland/ Eire or wotteffah) who feel dissed by the use of the word ‘DIDDLEY’ should get over it and re-claim the word for yourselves; like the gays did with ‘queer’ and black youth did with ‘n*****’ thus devaluing the insult factor of the word and enhancing the sense of dark irony.
Meanwhile in another Diddleyland somewhere: If I was a rich man ya ha deedle deedle bubba bubba deedle deedle dum all day I’d biddy biddy bum If I was a wealthy man.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Diddley music
Or anywhere else on the planet.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Diddley music
Its the exact same feeling when an Englishman calls Ireland Eire.Exactly the same . Diddley and Eire..Highly insulting.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
That cloud
That cloud
It looks like Ireland
Diddley aye
Diddley aye
Diddley aye
aye
You gonna tell Kate Bush she's being insulting?
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
She's English
Oh, sorry, I though it wasn't about the English
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
Not at all.It is used in thousands of songs .
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Ooh! You're just so insulted! I wonder how you manage to get sleep every night if you're so exasperated all the time!
What would you prefer people to refer to the island that the Romans called Hibernia then? Something that doesn't insult you!
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Diddley music
The eire is an english thing llig.The diddley thing is a few of you on this forum.I cant start here again.I was only joking till yhaalhouse came in with the eire stuff.Next someone will say we are part of the British Isles and I will lose the head and get thrown off so sadly i cant continue here.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
The British Isles is a geographic description of all the islands laying to the NE of the Earopean mainland. The main Islands are Great Britain which consists of England, Scotland & Wales (& London!), Ireland, the Channel Islands, Isle of man, Orkney, Shetland, Inner & Outrer hebridees and all the minors: Lindisfarne, Isle of Wight, St Kilda et cetera...
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Diddley music
This has been discussed to death before!
What is quite often misunderstood is the difference between the terms: British Islands and British Isles.
And of course the geographic descriptions are seperate from the political ones...
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Diddley music
I get mortally insulted if anyone calls where I live Cornwall. It's Kernow, you ignorami. Anyone for Londonderry?
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
And they dont even know they insult us.That description was made by an englishman.We choose to call our country Ireland and only that. I'm gone.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Why do you keep spelling English with a little e? Are you wreaking vengeance?
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
And you've had more bloody comebacks in this thread than Frank Sinatra. Or j...(sudden strangulated sound...)
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
http://store.tidbitstrinkets.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/IrishStamp-1922.jpg
http://heindorffhus.motivsamler.dk/arthistory/delacroix-eire1979-RobBallagh-Piarais-medium.jpg
http://aes.iupui.edu/rwise/banknotes/ireland_republic/IrelandRepublicP4Cb-10Pounds-1941-donatedms_f.jpg
http://www.eurocoins.co.uk/images/2002eire2euroobv240.jpg
Given all that, how is somebody outside Ireland supposed to work out that "Eire" is insulting?
(I've virtually never used the word, but not from any well-articulated reason).
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: Diddley music
These moaners just need to keep their eireann in my opinion.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
This is like a horse race!
It's Diddley looking strong on the second to last furlong. Diddley approaching the finish line... Oh, no, he's flagging. He's fallen back. Bad Grammar Slagging has pulled up along side him. His jockey is flailing at him with the whip and now Making Up Statistics is ahead of him. Bad Grammar Slagging has lost his brief lead. There's British Isles flying up the outside rail! He's passed General Ization and Bad Grammar Slagging, is taking on Making Up Statistics. It's British Isles and Making Up Statistics neck and neck! This is an exciting race, ladies and gentleman.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Diddley music
Who's the one gentleman? Is it I?
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
yhaalhouse! Only gentlemen collect hot water bottles.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Diddley music
Booo.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
Sorry, Steve, that was my sponsor from People who Suck at Accurate Typing Anonimus taking control over my keyboard and pretending that that wasn't a typo. You of course are the epitome of a gentleman. I'll not let that guy near my computer again.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Diddley music
'S all right, the same bloke visits me too. I thought Epitome was a make of guitar.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
I think he just did again.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
It's ok. Bloody annoying when other people just take a hold of your keyboard, though. Prats.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Diddley music
And it's Random Silliness, the longshot, approaching fast on the inside rail, challenging the leaders! He's passed Diddley and General Ization. He's now only a length behind Making Up Statistics!
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Diddley music
And on the outside, the filly Absurdity is finally making her move. Her jockey is guiding her towards the inside position. She's cut off the early favourite, Diddley and is drawing up on General Ization. She's passed him now. Random Silliness is nose to nose with Making up Statistics. British Isle's lead has dropped back to two lengths, one length. Making Up Statistics has fallen behind Random Silliness. General Ization has failed to hold off Absurdity. Is she going to challenge the front runners?
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Diddley music
Hello, what's this? A horse running backwards?? Ll...
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
TheSilverSpear, All you need is the Spike Jones Orchestra backing up your sportscasting, and I think you will have a hit on your hands!
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Diddley music
apropos nothing
Round the Colosseum we go marching
Wearing dickies that are needing starching
Watched by Nero, he's our hero
Sits up there with a belly full of beer-o
All day long he keeps on fiddlin'
Fingers 'DIDDLIN', always twiddlin'
We must please him, if we tease him
Throws us in the lions den.
from THE ROMAN GLADIATOR (Dave Houlden)
sung to the tune of March of the Gladiators I believe; seems diddling been around awhile...
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by john knoss
Re: Diddley music
Bored, really bored...must get a life, learn to concentrate
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by john knoss
Re: Diddley music
If "diddley" derives from "diddle" (which is unproven), then this bears on use of the term (from the Online Etymological Dictionary):
) So I'll go on calling it "the music."
Diddle: "to cheat, swindle," 1806, from dial. duddle, diddle "to totter" (1630s). Meaning "waste time" is recorded from 1825. Meaning "to have sex with" is from 1879; that of "to masturbate" (especially of women) is from 1950s. More or less unrelated meanings that have gathered around a suggestive sound.
I'm not making this up: http://www.etymonline.com/
For me, playing this music is one of the few things that *isn't* a waste of time. (No comment on the later meanings assigned to the word
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Diddley music
Surely it doesn't come from "diddle", does it? It's just onomatopoeic, yes? And, I must admit, I don't call it anything in particular. Just tunes.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Diddley music
Will, So you'd walk into a bar in the west of Ireland And ask the Barman, "Can you tell me where they play the music round here?"
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
Go to the barman and recite the following:
Hey diddle diddle,
The cat and the fiddle,
The cow jumped over the moon,
The little dog laughed to see such sport,
And the dish ran away with the spoon.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by leoj
Re: Diddley music
No, I'd ask the barman for a nip of Red Breast, neat.
And then I'd ask the most high-maintenance looking woman in the pub which local establishment she avoids because of the music played there, and get the address.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Diddley music
Seriously, if I were in the west of Ireland, it'd be the dead of winter and I'd be in Conor Bar in Dingle or perhaps Minnion's in Balla, Co. Mayo. No questions needed.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Diddley music
...this is not like a horse race, it's more like the pamplona bull run
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Diddley music
Well, there's no shortage of bull, that's for sure.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Diddley music
@ big_tab
Éire is the name of the state. See Bunreacht na héireann Article 4
The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland
How is an englishman calling it Éire offensice when that is its actual name
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by sensibleken
Re: Diddley music
You are technically correct, sensibleken. Éire is the official name of the State but as usual there's often a gap and sometimes a yawning crevasse between what's officially correct and what's in common parlance.
Gaeilge is the official language of the Republic of Ireland but very few citizens would be able to carry on a useful conversation in it. English for better or worse is the everyday language and Ireland is the name in common use.
What Bigtab is referring to is the common use of Éire by people across the water when addressing letters etc and referring generally to Ireland. Yes, it's technically correct but it betrays a mindset stuck in some timewarp!
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by the wounded hussar
Re: Diddley music
From over the water that sounds ridiculous. It is the usual decision about putting what it says on the stamp of the letter you are replying to or what the guy in the sorting office is more likely to get right. Across the world the 'english' name for a country often one the locals are trying to replace.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by David50
Re: Diddley music
Lump a light little load of lye. The lumpin' ya did'll lie a little idle all day...
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by pipewatcher
Re: Diddley music
wounded hussar. Is it that do you think? I have never heard anyone in England use éire derogatoraly. Soutern Ireland annoys me more but its used more out of convention rather than 100% accuracy, a bit like when people say northern ireland is part of britain when its part of the uk (spliting hairs i know)
I think the offence caused by people saying éire or diddly music comes from the 800 years chip on some shoulders. that if anyone from england says anything about ireland some people will automatically think their having a go. even when they are people enthusiastic about the music/culture/country.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by sensibleken
Re: Diddley music
That's very sensible, ken.
Of course we should be sensitive to the different meaning of words across country boundaries. A Republican, for example, can be an affiliation with a political party (US), a desire to be rid of monarchy (England) and I won't even start about what it means north and south of the border in Ireland.
But diddley music is different. It means the same thing. And whether or not you take the humpf over it is entirely up to you.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
Ah IIig, trad seen through the lens of Witgensteinian language games, i like it
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by sensibleken
Re: Diddley music
Only in the sense that people are indoctrinated to react to certain words in a certain way, regardless of there straightforward meanings. But people should be bright enough to recognise their indoctrinations and rise above them. Indoctrination is not an excuse to take the humpf.
Often, though, and I'm certain that this is the case here, the humpf is a manufactured affectation created to portray a tribal belonging.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
Tribal belonging? Eire is what you guys and only you guys call our 26 counties.Ireland is what we call our 32 county country.Its kind of unbelievable that none of you know this.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
This website is an odd place for anyone to come with their affectations created to portray tribal belonging, but that's just some people for ya. They are far more likely to portray total pillockry, as demonstrated by this thread. Tribal feelings are best expressed on tribal territory. I didn't call 'em total pillocks, Jeremy. I am just saying they are in danger of portraying themselves thus.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
"Its kind of unbelievable that none of you know this."
No it isn't. We are primarily here to discuss diddley music, not the nuances of your country's various appellations, of which we do not have to be scholars in order to sign up here. If it's misunderstandings you and yours are wanting to sort out you could start with your misleading coins and stamps.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
There you go again with your "them and us" thing. Anyway, keep going, you are proving me right
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by ...
Re: Diddley music
well if this is going to turn into a political debate. I am one of the 'we' you speak of.
I don't regard Ireland as a 32 county country. We gave up a claim to that 12 years ago when we voted 94% in favour of the 19th amendment and changed articles 2 & 3.
Article 5 states éire is the official name of the state. it is not something that only english people use. we use it in legal and diplomatic cirlces too. yes on a day to day basis we call it ireland, sometimes Eireann or eire, ould sod etc.
what exactly is it about éire you find offensive?
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by sensibleken
Re: Diddley music
And I never call it Eire.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
All this political sh1t is really stupid and dangerous. Quit now please. Let this forum be free of political hang-ups and stereotyping. Let's just get on with talking about the music, eh?
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Diddley music
" ... to react to certain words in a certain way, regardless of there straightforward meanings." OK, I am out of the political defaecation.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by David50
Re: Diddley music
I am sorry I reacted.I only want to discuss music but believe me you guys have been a club for quite a while.I have heard the word Pirhannas used to describe the way you can all gang up on session.org.There is nothing I would like more than to discuss more of this but it is inevitable that it would be me that will be suspended and I have got the 3 threads that bothered me off my chest.And Ladies and Gentlemen the next comment will come from Steve who waits in huge anticipation for my every uttering.One thing more I would like to say.I am overwhelmed and delighted with the way the peace process has been taken to heart by all sides. It is a wonderful miracle and when I discuss words and perceptions here it is only words which I always find interesting.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
'...this is not like a horse race, it's more like the pamplona bull run'
This is where common sense gets trampled underfoot: http://www.spiegel.de/video/video-1075464.html
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by biggus dave
Diddly diddly doo dah! Ooh Er Missus!
I am a citizen of the planet Earth.
All nationalism and patriotism (including historical resentment of another nation or wotteffah) is just stupid uninformed and faintly ignorant parochialism. Everyone’s culture is just human culture and can all be shared with any human on the planet as all culture is ‘owned’ by all of us! Dig in and enjoy the diversity! Don’t live in the past! Enjoy the moment!
By the way: I felt there was a slight misunderstanding or assumption regarding my ethnicity. I am not an Englishman!
My two maternal grandparents were both born in London (they might both have been North Londoners! Shock! Horror!). Of my paternal grandparents, my grandfather was born in the Elephant & Castle area of South London, my paternal grandmother was born in Corpach on Loch Eil in the Highlands of Scotland. Both parents were born in London, my mother in Paddington, my father in the Elephant & Castle. I was born in Chiswick (next door to the Fuller’s Brewery!). Racially I’m white Caucasian with lots of red hair, beard and freckles tending to light blue on the inside of my upper arms and thighs. I’m an English speaking non-Christian cultural tourist. This is made possible by being a resident native of London.
England, by the way, is the area of the island of Great Britain, mainly white people, rather lacking diversity (compared to London) and outside the M25 motorway/ autobahn/ interstate/ highway (but not Scotland or Wales). Call me British if you really, really have to: by necessity my passport is British (‘Brit-ish’ always sounds like you are similar to a Brit but not quite- in the way you’d say a reel was played ‘fast-ish’ or a late evening was ‘darkish’…).
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Diddley music
Used to sup in the City Barge in my misspent student days, which is several decades ago. Is it still there? Born next to Fullers, eh? I hope you got yourself on the flavour panel for London Pride...
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
That was grand Yhaalhouse and one of the few funny comments in a forum of comedians.!
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
Pirhannas? Really? Have you been watching too many American political debates and derived the idea that anyone who disagrees with you must be in cahoots with one another, part of a conspiracy to destroy your fundamental values?
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Diddley music
By the way I can't recall anyone (English or Irish) I know who refers to Ireland as 'Eire'.
I've heard 'The Republic','The South' and very occasionally 'The Free State' though the latter was being used mischieviously.It's usually 'Ireland'.
Perhaps you hang around with a particularly low sort of English person.
Like members of the diplomatic corps.
That last bit should have a smiley face at the end btw.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by biggus dave
Re: Diddley music
I'm far too hated to qualify to join anyone's conspiracy. This is not helped by the fact that I play diddley music on the harmonica and once owned a bodhran. I'm a tiddler in a pond of piranhas.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
tiddley diddley man
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Diddley music
Sensibleken - I didn't say the term Éire was offensive. The term would be regarded as 'quaint' maybe - a little oit of touch, perhaps.
But of course, there are people in Ireland who embrace the language fully and would like us to move back to a people that use the Gaeilge in everyday life and I'm sure they are delighted to see it in use.
But sadly perhaps, methinks that day has passed and it's oft noted that there is more Chinese and Polish etc. spoken in modern Ireland in an everyday context, relative to the Gaeilge.
What's this got to do with trad music? Quite a lot, I think, as there are close enough links between the music we play and the Gaeilge.
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by the wounded hussar
Re: Diddley music
sorry wounded hussar. i was actually talking to big_tab when i said that. just a few people got in before me while i was typing
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by sensibleken
D__ music (aka 'just play the tune')
By reading this thread one might assume this is the most important topic in trad. Having said that, KVMR will be broadcasting the Grass Valley Worldfest over the next 4 days;
http://www.worldfest.net/
Ziggy Marley will be playing Sunday night. It may be hot in the sun but folks will be chillin' with Ziggy. ;)
# Posted on July 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
what about Skiddly boo? an aul bit of skiddly boo goes down well of an evening.. Sessibritkan - BnaE is an outmoded and outdated constitution. Unrepresentitive and poorly endowed to deal adequately with many issues in 21st century. Its a long list.
In terms of the national question you refer to the dropping of Irelands territorial claim in Articles 2 & 3 , yet you fail to mention the amendments replacing them, - everyone born on the island of Ireland has the right "to be part of the Irish Nation" (but Article 9 limits this to persons born on the island having an Irish parent). Article 3 declares the will of the Irish people to create a united Ireland, provided this occurs peacefully, and with the consent of the people of Northern Ireland.. And as im sure you know the good friday agreement legislates for such a referendum occuring. Frustrating when people make such direct assertions about a process that is by no means complete. You are a card carrying member of the free state bubble generation I suspect..
# Posted on July 18th 2010 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Diddley music
Hi miss muligan. nice to see we can have an intelligent conversation without resorting to childish name calling, took me a while to work out sensibritken was directed at me. definetely a pun worthy of a hungover sun sub editor, bualadh bos.
i am aware of the other articles of the constitution but have no idea what your talking about. what i said was we did give up a claim to be a 32 county country. we replaced it with a desire to be one as long as there is consent, thats not the same thing.
I also have no idea what a 'free state bubble generation' is either.
# Posted on July 19th 2010 by sensibleken
Re: Diddley music
Viva la difference..I think miss mulligan is from Belfast which makes him my countryman in the country of Ireland.sensibleken lives in Eire and does not consider poor oul miss mulligan his countryman.
# Posted on July 20th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Diddley music
chill?
# Posted on July 20th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
Aren't they finished bickering yet?
# Posted on July 20th 2010 by AlBrown
A rastafarian & a diddley musician walk into a hookah bar ... & forget all their troubles ... sorry, that's a different website.
# Posted on July 20th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
Oh for goodness sakes - I have probably not even read 10% of this daft thread. Who cares what people call it? Call it Diddley music if you want. Call it fiddle music. Call it trad or "The Music". I really don't care and am not going to take offence. Can't we just call it folk music and be done with it?
If people want to denegrate it let them. They are not worth the effort and it will survive just fine in spite of them. It was never the most popular music to listen to growing up but it didn't stop any of us did it?
Anyway if someone asks for you to play some diddley music then they are not deliberately denegrating anything. They are wanting to hear some music. They are showing an interest whether you entertain that interest or not.
# Posted on July 20th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Diddley music
If you cannot have a good long winded rant here, what does that leave you?
# Posted on July 20th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
That's right, No Cause, just barge on in at the last minute with a lot of common sense and practical thoughts!
# Posted on July 20th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Diddley music
The last minute? I somehow very much doubt that!
# Posted on July 20th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Diddley music
What happens in mustard, stays in mustard ... there is no end, no escape, no exit. Just diddley & more diddley.
# Posted on July 20th 2010 by Ben Steen
376 replies ... going where only a handful of threads dare to tread.
# Posted on July 20th 2010 by Ben Steen
Psych 101
It's elemental. Once you decide someone is causing you offense you will continue to be insulted each time the mechanism is activated. Which is effectively placing your destiny in the hands of those who disrespect you. Which is why I say don't let them. Take pleasure in their foolish attempts to get the better of you.
In a word,simply ~ "Diddle"
# Posted on July 20th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Diddley music
well said random_humour
# Posted on July 20th 2010 by sensibleken