There was a time not so long ago when the music masters were generally tradesmen and labourers .The musicians called on to play for the housedances were regular people.They were a vital part of the community.Their music was a celebration of the ordinary people.The more educated and wealthy avoided our music in general and sometimes treated it with disdain.Why then have things changed so much that there is a fear (here in Ireland anyway) that ordinary people are being left out of the music more and more.People who have made cds have described themselves as doctors of one kind or other.I dont hear plumbers or carpenters or lads on the dole or musicians even mentioning their careers.This short muse comes after being accused of having bad english and grammar and stuff on a thread about bodhrans where I had gone on for too long.As the days went by since and I thought of many great musician friends who dont read and write but are well educated and fierce knowledgable.I found this elitism disturbing and discriminatory and irrelevant to having a chat about tunes.
it might be an attempt by professionals and the like you are describing to get some humanisation back into the lives to counterbalance the increasing corporatisation, depersonalisation and lack of control which seems to pervade workplaces increasingly. It seems to be a global phenomenon too, if that is of any significance.
In a slightly negative view however, it could be that it is in fact a sort of elitism, where people are seeking to add something "cool" to the cv, or "multi facet" their professional persona among peers, or simply a wish to demonstrate (to themselves and others perhaps) that "whatever you can do, I can do better". To me, that's the disturbing part, for all sorts of other reasons too.
Maybe they just like playing the music, simple as that, and the music is becoming popular across a greater range of society and among different cultures, that's a good thing.
I think I saw an interview or so, not so long ago, with Jeremy Irons was it?, who lives down around West Cork now, very concerned about trying to identify with some, any Irish forebears, and the music. Curious.
Why, I'm not sure, but there certainly seems to be a trend this way.
It just points up what is a very important aspect to this music, and that is the community culture, and especially in Ireland.
It is quite different to go to genuine community, local sessions in Ireland and see how things go there, the craic and so forth.
They're the sessions I look out for anyway. Not the other carry on.
Prof.Its a nice post and I'm guessing you are making the point that the two great men you refer to were highly educated and you are of course correct.They were however men of the people.Loughnane was called Dr Bill out of affection I believe.Sean Reid I thought was an engineer in the council and drove the entire Tulla Ceili Band to their gigs because he was the only one who could afford a car!
He's not talkin' about prevalence of any group or another I don't think - he is just talking about "Dublin in the rare auld times" sort of thing.
He's a man seeing things change, it's not what he was used to when he thought it was better craic, that's all. Same in a lot of other areas too.
He's right though, it's a trend happening; it is how you view it though.
In the US it is extremely difficult to make your living as a full time musician. The few years that I tried back in the 90's I barely made poverty level wages. We made and sold cd's and played lots of shows. We played country music because that's what sells best here. I hated every minute of it.
When not playing I still worked my trade (I'm a carpenter) so that I could pay the bills. I finally got kicked out of the band because the lead singer didn't like the "Irish" influence in my playing. I wasn't Nashville enough for them.
Ever since, I have immersed myself in playing ITM because that's what I love. I've played in lots of places and have seen many everyday people here and in Ireland who play and play well. No I don't make ITM cd's. I'm not interested in commercialism and marketing and I'm a terrible buisnessman. I like to play tunes. I like the way the music works as a social tool and stay plenty busy doing it. I doubt I'll ever make a cd other than the odd recording to give to a friend who wants to learn a tune.
I like to say that I work as a carpenter so I can afford being a piper
Miss Mulligan.I have no problem with anyone playing music.Inverted snobbery is maybe worse .I just dont think when you make a cd that you have to tell people youre a doctor.
You can john but I dont think what I work at is interesting.I love the anoninimity(can never spell that word) of the board if one wishes and its not about me.I am not a doctor.
There's nothing wrong with being a doctor or being educated. Unless of course you are one of those who need to take potshots at folks who are successful and you take pride in being uneducated and poverty stricken.
'Why then have things changed so much that there is a fear (here in Ireland anyway) that ordinary people are being left out of the music more and more? People who have made cds have described themselves as doctors of one kind or other.'
Where is that fear? What proof do you have of this?
Who has described themselves as 'a doctor' and by what means? I've probably read more CD liners and LP notes than most posters to this site and I can't recall more than a very few specific mentions to a musician's profession, and most of those were usually made in retrospective collections.
As for doctors - Seán Smyth and Séamus McGuire (medicine), Charlie Lennon (PhD physics) and Aidan Coffey (PhD engineering, I think) - or are you talking about postgraduates of UCL and UCC?
There are tons of traditional musicians in Ireland, from all manner of backgrounds, who are either fully or semi-professional (including quite a few who've never held down a day job in any other sphere). There are also many who work full-time in a wide variety of jobs.
Lads I have nothing against doctors!!!! The point is that at least 5 cds I know of tell us that the artist is a doctor..Who give s a crap what the musician works at.I like doctors.
I would have thought that the people playing the music today are a broad slice of society. There will be some professional people amongst them but I don't think the class divides are anywhere near as great as they were in the era that you are referring to.
Times change and there is no point in bemoaning the fact. If you wanted to turn the clock back to that era then you would also be back to the times where someone like Willie Clancy could die at the age of 54 of a heart condition that would probably be treatable given today's medical standards.
Mac Cruiskeen.You have named some of the people who have deemed it neccessary to tell us their profession.Now mac Cruiskeen tell me why they felt that neccessity.
Mea culpa, big_tab, it was me that commented on the grammar, and in retrospect, it was a cheap shot. You appeared to be getting extremely frustrated in that discussion, and it was just going on and on with little point. My thought was that those who get their point across better in print are less apt to feel misunderstood and get frustrated about it when entering into the discussions here. But now that I think about it, I have seen some very articulate people get extremely frustrated in discussions around here, so the one doesn't necessarily lead to the other.
I think most of us around here don't comment on our professions because we want to focus on the music. Not that we laud one profession over another. There is a wide diversity of people from all walks of life at most sessions I attend, and no direct link between profession and musical abilities, one way or another.
I should imagine elitism and snobbiness abound, or at any rate are present, pretty well anywhere. Or at any rate people pulling rank on others maybe out of insecurity, maybe because they really can do their thing better without being impeded by those who are less good at it or not in the know. I do like to imagine that people in small, long-term communities occupy their various niches relatively peaceably, having known their capabilities relative to those of the others since early in life, but I may be wrong.
big_tab, I think if you got out and travelled around more instead of hanging around reading cd sleeves, you'd find that the ordinary people are playing this music as much or more than ever.
One should almost forget the Deanof the Mater Hospital. But does it matter?
We are told Martin Rochford drove lorries and Willie Clancy was a painstaking joiner. The Dorans sold scrap and horses. CanonGoodman headed the Irish department in Trinity. Paddy Canny and Junior Crehan farmed. Eamonn McGiveny is the Man from the Ordnance Survey. Their professions put them in context or gets sung about.
In the meantime people in general get better education. So they carry doctorates and degrees around. Big deal.
The only who gets on my tits by using his titles is Prof. Dr. O Halloran. He just tends to take it a bit far.
Why should Gearoid come in for more criticism than others Prof? He is possibly the only one I have no problem with as he has contributed greatly to our knowledge of the music.His name is Ó hAllmhúráin by the way.
When the music truly is an outgrowth of community--of friends and neighbors playing tunes together--then it makes complete sense to know what people do to earn a living. You know the people not just as musicians who sit in the circle, but also in terms of where they live, what they do for work, what other avocations they pursue, who their cousins are, etc.
My local session is very much this way--we include computer techies, music teachers, writers, a retail manager, college students, retirees, a naturopath, one with a doctorate in range science, and so on. Some of us have changed work several times in the years the sesh has carried on.
Some jobs may have more *perceived* prestige, but that's the perceiver's problem. It takes all kinds to make a community.
I usually find it mildly interesting to discover what a person does for a living in the liner notes. I think the function that it often serves is to highlight that the musician in question is an amateur who has decided to take the plunge and make a recording for various reasons. I have a recording of mandolin music made by a man in the west of Ireland who describes himself as a psychologist who lives in such and such a town. It seems to me to be quite a modest thing to say. It gives me the impression that the CD may be a personal milestone, or maybe his friends in the pub encouraged him to do it etc. etc. Of course all that's neither here nor there - it's the quality of the music that counts, isn't it?
But big_tab, I think that is what Will is saying. In a session, especially a small town session, you do know what everyone does for a living, and your lives intersect outside the sessions. But when it is time for The Music and the camaraderie that comes with it, those professions don't matter.
Fair play MacCruiskeen.That sentence was a gut instinct and I immediately wanted to withdraw it.Allow me to withdraw it now if I can.You still havnt answered my question also.
Heh, I'm not unhappy with your English or your typing skills. I merely pointed out that disjointed writing is typically a sign of disjointed thinking. And so it seems.
Case in point: big_tab, you complain in your original post that once upon a time the musicians were "a vital part of the community," yet you don't like it when doctors say what their job is. I'm assuming medical doctors are included here? Are they not vital to their communities? And what about people with advanced degrees in, say, agriculture? Are they somehow superfluous to their communities? What if they use their degrees to more productively manage the family farm? In some cases, at least, what you call elitism smells more like progress to others.
Or should well-educated or well-employed people not be allowed to play this music?
Funny, but where I live, musicians *are* a vital part of the community, regardless of what their day jobs are. And what they do for their day jobs is also vital for the community, regardless of what type of music they play or how well they play it.
Yes big_tab it's John Colfer. And now that I think of it, I might be completely mistaken when I say that it mentions his profession in the liner notes! (which I haven't seen in years). It's possible that someone told me where he lives and what he does for a living when I was in the music shop in Kinvara when I bought it. My original point still stands though. I know that Kathleen Collins was a full time dance instructor around the time that she recorded "Traditional Music of Ireland" from the liner notes. The main idea that it gets across is that it's lucky that the recording was made in the first place - given the fact that she was so busy with her career.
I've never heard anybody declare his occupation while playing. The references on cds are written by the marketing people in an effort to lend some authority to the musician. I fear I am fighting a losing battle (well, not so much fighting as watching from the trenches) in keeping the music for, of and by the people. Once money is involved, we can kiss tradition goodbye. Until then, we can only play our best. The elitism I fear most is not that of other traditional musicians, but comes mainly via the media from self-styled authorities and 'classical' musicians who have all taken exams, therefore know better.
Suppose, for supposition's sake you share your musical evenings with a lovely, highly educated human being who also happens to be a wretched musician. They've been that way for years; and there's no hope of improvement.
In the OP, bt writes: "Why then have things changed so much that there is a fear (here in Ireland anyway) that ordinary people are being left out of the music more and more."
I realize that cultural differences weigh on this, and as a Yank I'm perhaps less inclined to consider people with doctorates as a higher class (lol, too many of them work at fast-food counters ), but it strikes me that we are all "ordinary people," regardless of our education, job status, mailing address, etc. And isn't that all the more obvious when people in a town come together to make music? Regardless of whether one's clothes are more expensive than the next?
Will.A person of limited intelligence like what you think I am with my awful english would still know that a doctor is a vital part of the community.I believe it is some kind of snobbery for these musicians to have it mentioned on their cd sleeves.I cant think of one other reson for mentioning it.
Lawyers are part of every community. They can be very fun in a session. Although it can be a downer if they discuss their work too much. On the other hand their lawyer jokes can go all night.
Now you're making horrible assumptions about what I think, and I don't appreciate being cast in a bad light that I've done nothing to deserve. No where have I suggested that you aren't intelligent. But that doesn't stop you from making poorly thought-out statements here.
You say: "I believe it is some kind of snobbery for these musicians to have it mentioned on their cd sleeves.I cant think of one other reson for mentioning it."
Sorry, but just because you can't think of other reasons doesn't mean that that these people don't have other reasons. A number have been suggested in this thread.
Honestly, the problem I have with many of your posts is that you rarely take on board what others have to say in response, especially when lapses in your reasoning are pointed out.
'I believe it is some kind of snobbery for these musicians to have it mentioned on their cd sleeves.I cant think of one other reson for mentioning it.'
But you've still not said who these musician are nor answered my questions ''Where is that fear? What proof do you have of this?'
The trouble with some people is that they believe everything they think. And they can't abide questioning it, or simply considering other possibilities.
While it may be true that we learn something when we're proven right, I suspect that we learn so much more when we're proven wrong. But we have to be open to that possibility.
big_tab - So if a musician mentioned in their sleeve notes that they were a binman (garbage collector) would that make them an elitist snob, or is it only if you are a professional? Yes, inverted snobbery at its best. Music of the people? What a load of elitist crap. Why should a farmer have more respect for playing trad than a doctor?
In my humble opinion there is more than one way to consider the significance (or insignificance) of a person's profession &/or education. One may have a doctorate in traditional music or learn the tunes only from playing in sessions. Either way it doesn't mean one is better than the other at passing along tunes. That all comes down to how people get along musically, not the specifics of any given occupation.
Doesn't anyone find mention of the background of the players on a CD interesting whatever they might do? To me it is interexting to know that X digs ditches or Y teaches doctoral level physics courses or whatever. The information adds to the way one hears the music. Doesn't make it better or worse, just changes perceptions some times.
So, snobbishness has nothing to do with it seems to me.
Atahualpa Quigley, I didn't think we'd met, until I saw your post up above:
"Suppose, for supposition's sake you share your musical evenings with a lovely, highly educated human being who also happens to be a wretched musician. They've been that way for years; and there's no hope of improvement."
It seems our paths may have crossed after all!
"There was a time not so long ago when the music masters were generally tradesmen and labourers . The musicians called on to play for the housedances were regular people. They were a vital part of the community."
Never have I heard such utter toss. Where can you start? Doctors not a vital part of the community? Regular people v "Irregular" people? Feckin hell
There's some dumb senseless rubbish posted here, but this one really takes the biscuit (or is that the canapés?)
And Michael Gill comes in with a valid point but delivers it with venom, writing: "There's some dumb senseless rubbish posted here, but this one really takes the biscuit (or is that the canapés?)"
He has now identified the OP as "dumb" and "senseless" and accused him of posting "rubbish," and according to his own stated doctrine, is now perfectly justified to cast insults.
I don't know if civil discourse is possible in this forum with tactics like this, but again, it's a pity, because Michael's point is valid. Is it possible for Michael to express himself without resorting to ad hominem? Only time will tell I suppose.
As a graphic designer, I can understand why peoples professions would show up in the liner notes. The copywriter's job is to produce a bio on the artist, and they might find out what the person does for a living, if it isn't music related, and add it in to either fill space or because they, and the editor, found it something of interest. I doubt they included it thinking it would raise the artist's standing regarding the music. I have designed many a CD cover and produced bios and other text for the liner notes. I never stopped to think about what the effect of including the artist's profession would be in relation to their music.
So I'd say big_tab might be reading too much into what sometimes just comes down to filling space.
Ah The great Llig enters .Never have I said there is anything wrong with being a professional.All I have asked why is it only doctors that feel a need to state this on their cd sleeves. Mac Cruiskeeen you might have missed my retraction of the line you quote.You ask me to name the musicians.I dont like to but you have named two of them.
In many cases, but not all... I've written copy for CDs that only one of the musicians on the recording were willing to review. Often these people don't have time nor energy to scrutinize every aspect of a CD layout and might delegate it to others and often overlook inaccuracies or allow something they later regret to make it to press. In some cases the artist might notice it but think nothing of it and not even consider whether or not mentioning it will enhance their perceived standings or not. I'm not saying what you're suggesting doesn't happen, but rather that it's hard to know for certain.
Will.No idea what points I am supposed to be trying to score.This is not an important part of my life .I just posted something I felt and since then I have been chatting about it and giving my opinion.Llig and Steve dont like it.You dont seem too impressed either.Thats ok with me.I might get a bit freaked if the 3 of you found anything interesting in my thoughts.I might become an annoyance like some other misfortunates who were eaten up here but its fun for me to participate and I appreciate being here.
No elitism to be found! A gang of Irish descended Yanks sat around a pub all day playing jigs and reels and getting sauced. No one played like a jerk or acted the fool, until one sauced fiddler came home and posted this nonsense. [hiccup]
I'm not wishing to appear elitist or snobbish here, but I thought you'd like to know that just the other day I was actually offered the post of the Principal Conductor to the Ulster Orchestra!
However, being an honest sort of a chap ............... I handed it back to the postman & told him that the conductor lives two doors along!
The best way to fix all the bellyaching about elitists and snobs is to just have a good fart or two. Maybe even three farts.
That always fixes bellyaches.
The reason people mention that they are doctors is so that they can get some benefit from their qualification. The truth is, society doesn't value education anymore. People are more interested in whether or not you have any experience in a given industry. If you want a job in anything other than acedemia, it's best to omit "PhD" from your resume or people won't even want to interview you. This makes people who have high qualifications feel very disgruntled and undervalued.
So instead of getting a decent job that pays you more than the minimum wage, you have "Dr." put on your ATM card or put it on your album cover, if only to give yourself a few moments of pride in all those years of work which you thought would be worth your while.
Don't knock people for putting "Dr." on their CD inlay. Their years of hard work isn't being appreciated by you or pretty much anyone else in today's society, so let them just enjoy it for themselves just once, just give them that satisfaction. It's not harming you.
I think that there is elitism on the part of certain musicians[Ihave no idea what their professions are], there are also some very talented musicians who are full of humility.
there are one or two members of this forum who are elitist and snobby , I have no idea what they do for a living and quite frankly I dont care, there are also some very helpful members on this forum. after a while you learn who to avoid and you realise that enjoyment of playing music is the most important thing.
If in my past I had recorded an LP of which a 100 or so were sold I might put that on the cover of my latest CD. If I had a CD, that is. It's a mark of a musical past, however feeble. On the other hand I probably wouldn't choose to call myself Real Name, MA (Oxon), PGCE, MPhil, MITI, because it with all that much space it would give the wrong impression, as if I thought it was important. But unlike those things, Dr is the accepted way to address someone with that qualification. It's just normal.
So you should call my daughter Dr, but I'll let you off calling me Master.
Congratulations btw Dr Dow, I take it you finished the process - well done!
Dr Dow.That makes a lot of sense and though I dont see things that way it is not disagreeable except of course that I reiterate that I have nothing against doctors except the ones that have to tell us what their job is on a music cd.It is plain ridiculous.
Thanks big_tab. Seriously though, you finish your years of work and come out of it bleary-eyed, under-nourished, pallid, depressed, stressed out and downright poverty-stricken but feeling pretty good about what you've achieved. Then you blink and take a moment to look around you. All your friends have high-paying jobs in the city, a house and a nice car, while you're struggling to get into any kind of career and you're barely able to buy enough food to keep you and your pet cat alive. You begin to wonder why you bothered.
I used to think people who called themselves "Doctor" were pretentious. They probably are. I don't care. I can't wait for the day when some admin staff member somewhere is rude to me and I can say really abruptly "actually it's DOCTOR to you". It would be worth the hard work just to see the look on their faces as they're thinking "god, what a pretentious, stuck-up c**t!"
I had to get a new bank account the other day and just as I was giving my details to put on my ATM card, a friend reminded me that I should have "Mr." changed to "Dr.". I can't wait for the card to come through so I can take it out of my wallet sometimes and stare at it. Maybe I should get my driving licence redone and then deliberately get myself pulled over so I have to show it to the police: "We saw you using your mobile phone while driving... can I see your licence please?" "You're more than welcome, officer. That's my name at the bottom there. See?"
big_tab jig may have nothing against you Dow. But remember, to him you're not a "regular person". You are not a "vital part of the community". Apparently there is a fear (yes, that's what he said, a "fear") that the regular people, the vital people, are being left out and supplanted by the likes of you who call yourselves doctors. Or have I misquoted him?
He refers to, "our music". By which he infers that he is a regular person, a vital part of the community, and a member of the privileged class that owns the music.
On a note about graphic design ... I'm certain that I would eschew the employment of one who puts copy in - any old copy, regardless of any discussion of relevance - as a "space filler". A graphic designer who never stops to think about what the effect of including copy is, is not a professional graphic designer in my book.
And for anyone who doesn't know much about graphic design, it would be like a diddley musician filling a tune with twiddley bits merely as space fillers, regardless of their relevance to the tune.
Read the Op again Llig.You misrepresent me.I was talking about years ago at the house dances and soirees before music even started in the pubs. History. These days the dynamics of a community are different.The fact that the music is in the pubs means that everybody is involved.THIS IS GOOD.
Hey llig if you think that's bad, you'll love this thread over at concertina.net http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11405&st=144. It seems some people think that we non-Irish must be invited by real Irish people before we are accepted into the tradition and can make decisions about the music and how it is to be played. LOL...
No, if I misrepresent you, then that could only because you misrepresented yourself in you original post.
You clearly state, "Why then have things changed so much that there is a fear (here in Ireland anyway) that ordinary people are being left out of the music more and more." (you kept out the question mark, making it a rhetorical question).
Thank you for that, Dr. Dow. Thanks to shaunw and concertina.net, I now know that I am not entitled to an opinion on Irish trad (for want of a better term). Thanks to big_tab and this thread, I now know that "more educated and wealthy" people are not "regular people" and that this music is not for them.
I'm not wealthy (although, of course, I am immensely wealthy by, say, African standards) but I am educated. I'm not Irish. Time to slink off into the distance with my educated tail between my legs and leave the field to ignorant, poor, Irish people ...
Llig you have obviously just come on and got stuck in without reading the thread.Its a really good idea to read everything.Twice above I have retracted that line.As far as" the vital part of the company" read the post and spot the past tense.We all speak here from our own experience and the experience of the west of Ireland is of house dances that were stopped by the priests so that the music went into the pubs and only then did the music go from the cottage to the general community.You call my thoughts idiocy and I have no problem with those words so Phantom its not a problem for me.Gives a bit of life to this board.I dont know where you live and what your experience of the music is but there are many 50 and 60 year olds here who used to hide their fiddles under their coats the disdain for the "peasant " music was so prevalent..
Dont know where this "Irish" thing crept in.I love the fact that the music is everyones .Its amazing the things you can get accused of saying here! The vultures have landed.Welcome ethical.One of my favourite fiddlers is Patrick Orceau.Willie Kelly is a great musician.I dont give a sh*te where you come from.
You amend your "a time not so long ago" to "years ago, history". You now think it's a good thing that the "more educated and wealthy" are a part of the music. You retract your "our music" reference in favour of "I love the fact that the music is everyone's". Do you still think there is a "fear" that "ordinary people" are left out? Do you still think that doctors are not ordinary people?
Is there anything in your original post you'd like to keep?
You said, "Read the Op again Llig.You misrepresent me."
Though I havnt been around long I get the feeling that if I posted that" Tommy Peoples is an interesting fiddler" the likes of ethical blend and a few others would pop up to have a go.Its fun though and good practise for getting it on with the serious contributors who actually know something about the music. Mac Cruiskeen,Phantom Button,even Llig have an idea whats going on.Anyway once again I reiterate this is fun.I should start a new thread.
The "Irish thing" wasn't directed at you, big_tab. Not *everything* is. It was after following Dr. Dow's link. Though why I did what he said, even KNOWING that he's a DOCTOR and all, is a mystery. That sort of thinking is probably one of the features of me not being a "regular person". And the worst of it is, there's no way back for me now ... I suppose I could have a lobotomy ... :-\
Llig you are implying my thoughts on the past apply to the present and they dont and I never said they did.I only allude to the present when I mention cd notes.In terms of the music 40 or 50 years is not neccessarily a long time.
Hmmm ... this thread was about elitism and snobbery, right? Aren't vultures allowed a say? Do you want to add them to the list of excluded professions?
I once worked as a shelf stacker in Aldi. It was one of the worst jobs I've ever had. In the end I got the sack for telling the shift manager to eff off. Anyway, my point was that I always tried to hide the fact that I wasn't a regular person. But you know, normal people can tell. There's something different about us. Something about our eyes, maybe? Or it might be that one day you accidentally use proper grammar like "whom" and then you've blown your cover and the regular people rip you to shreds like a pack of wild dogs.
I am a doctor but its not widely known as I never mentioned it on my fiddle cd where I was accompanied by Dr Charlie Lennon,joined on fiddles by Drs Sean,Breda and Cora Smith and sleeve notes by that great genius of trad Dr Micheal O'Suilleabhain. Now how did I know they are all doctors.? Get my point even a little bit now?
Wow I just found out that doctor is my profession. All this time I could have been making good money. Anyone with medical problems PM me - I'll heal you for a price.
"I used to think people who called themselves "Doctor" were pretentious. They probably are. I don't care. I can't wait for the day when some admin staff member somewhere is rude to me and I can say really abruptly "actually it's DOCTOR to you". It would be worth the hard work just to see the look on their faces as they're thinking "god, what a pretentious, stuck-up c**t!" "
Congratulations! Enjoy it Dr. Dow. You are spot on about how much good it does. Think of it as a union card to teach at University.....
"Never heard any other profession mentioned on a CD sleeve"
Not a CD - before they were invented - on the LP record "Billy Clifford : Irish Tradtional Flute Solos & Band Music from Kerry & Tipperary" :-
"During the day, Billy worked as a TV repair man, and in 1969, he moved to work for RTV {sic} in Tipperary town."
I could probably find more.......................
LOL, if you think you get satisfaction out of waving your Dr. around, just imagine how good it felt to me to teach graduate level courses at a university law school, and me with nothing more than a bachelor's in English.
Going back over the OP here, maybe it would help to point out that the written nature of participating on this forum places more weight on literacy, basic typing skills, and (oddly enough, not Gaelige) an emphasis on the English language. Many of us here take this into account and give the benefit of the doubt to posters who clearly aren't wordsmiths, or for non English speakers. (I was once fluent in Italian, but it would take me weeks or months to get up to speed again enough to participate at all meaningfully on an Italian language forum.)
Sorry, but basic literacy is very nearly a requirement of participation on net forums like this. It's a skillset like any other, and if you want to join in here, it only makes sense to sharpen your skills and knowledge. Getting called on the carpet for being nigh unintelligible and then complaining about it here is akin to griping about a session playing too fast just because you can't play at normal tempos.
In short, calling someone elitist and a snob because they have basic skills and you don't is a Dark Ages mentality that benefits no one.
Michael writes: "On a note about graphic design ... I'm certain that I would eschew the employment of one who puts copy in - any old copy, regardless of any discussion of relevance - as a "space filler". A graphic designer who never stops to think about what the effect of including copy is, is not a professional graphic designer in my book."
You obviously have never worked in the industry and have no concept of what exists in the real world of graphic arts and advertising. But as someone who has, I can guarantee you that the industry is nowhere as ideal as you like to think it is. Maybe you've never heard the saying: don't believe everything you read.
Michael, so what's your point then, that because YOU would never employ one, the idea that the production of liner notes with inaccuracies or overlooked details isn't possible? Or are you suggesting that you employed the graphic artists that included details about people's occupations outside of the music on the recordings BT was referring to and they were perfect because of it? What were you saying?
I don't think anyone here would want to hire graphic artists that just provides thoughtless "filler," but they are out there and they are doing it. But I also don't think you understand the process of creating graphic design; there are many stages, and sometimes details that are wrong or unintended manage to sneak in to the finished product by mistake. Sometimes details are edited out and then reappear in the finalization of the product because of technical errors. But in this case I think it's more likely that the details were added and when they were run by the artist for approval, the artists never imagined the idea that mentioning it would fall under the sort of scrutiny that is happening here.
To will harmon.As i am precluded from saying what I would like I would say it is only your opinion that my english is limited .Your English is proper but extremely unpleasant and patronising.
One where you introduced yourself as a graphic designer and blamed the copywriter for space fillers and yet admitted that as a designer, you never stopped to think.
And the other where you introduced your self as a copywriter and blamed inaccuracies and irrelevancies on the refusals of others to proof read.
big_tab, Remember at the beginning of this thread when I apologized for taking a cheap shot at your grammar in a previous thread? Please note that I did not apologize for calling you out for perpetuating an ugly and negative argument in that same thread, and flogging a discussion that was going nowhere. And I am sad to say, you are doing it again. Up above, you said, "Anyway once again I reiterate this is fun.I should start a new thread." And I see that a new and negative thread has indeed appeared. You obviously are taking great enjoyment in stirring the pot, and bringing out negativity. I am afraid that what Will is saying, you brought about yourself with your behavior. Your mode of argument, to use your own words, is "extremely unpleasant."
Fair enough Al.. You are a straight talker .I have tried to explain myself at the end of the other thread. I am not stirring the pot.I believe strongly in the defence of the bodhran and I believe the term diddley music is known now to be offensive and probably has been all the time.This thread wasnt worded right and I messed up a bit . I see I am isolated on this forum with my ideas.However I reitirate their is something repugnant to me when someone denigrades someone for a perceived lack of communication skills.Once again I appreciate your directness but one thing...they are not negative threads. I defend the bodhran and I suggest people dont use a known derogatory term.
@Will
"LOL, if you think you get satisfaction out of waving your Dr. around, just imagine how good it felt to me to teach graduate level courses at a university law school, and me with nothing more than a bachelor's in English.
Life ain't fair. "
Try to recall what Garrison Keillor said about degrees in English ;)
I still don't get your point, Michael, I'm simply pointing out how inaccuracies and unintended statements might make it to press. My personal example was about how the client in some CD's I've designed have been lackadaisical in their effort to control what makes it to press. I didn't indicated that I neither care nor make any effort to get the final product accurate, but I did point out that I might not concern myself with the issues raised in this thread either; that would be up to the artist.
You seem to be on some sort of fishing expedition, Michael.
The denigration of bodhrans, along with the denigration of The Music in general, won't stop any time soon, if ever. We must be strong. Bin Men Without Borders will never enjoy the fame and recognition of that other bunch -- who stole the idea for their name from us, btw.
he music is full of bios and/or liner notes mentioning along the way what people do or did in their "other" lives. it's hardly limited to doctors. and yes, there are a good number of professions or metiers cited that involve higher-level, including graduate professional-level, education. but that is not about snobbery or elitism any more than the high degree of bios mentioning "farmer" or "carpenter" for older generations of irish musicians was some kind of rural proletarian snobbery.
it is a fact, rather than an opinion, that as the demographic function or status of a given genre of music changes, the demographics of many of its adherents change. i'm not saying it's good or bad, it's just a fact. it's not snobbery or elitism, it is just a demographic fact. and irish music, like many, many other genres born as dance-based rural community music, is one of those genres that has entered that phase. this is a controversial issue generating much hand-wringing in american jazz, which has become an Academy-sponsored "art" music to the dismay of many who i think should be out there swinging rather than bewailing a demographic change they can do nothing about..
if you go onto the archives of the rte "bloom of youth" series (i think it's rte, and i think kieran hanrahan is the host) where interviews with wonderful young irish players are interspersed with cuts of their playing, and listen to those shows, the fact is that over ninety percent of those young players mention during the interviews that they are in uni or headed for uni. i've heard dentist, engineer, doctor, and scads of u-limerick masters-level ethno people....just heard an interview on clare fm with a newly-minted m.a. music therapist. they're not being snobs. they're just factually answering perfectly normal questions about what they are doing or preparing to do work-wise with their lives.
this cultural/demographic fact is also largely the case with players of this music here on Turtle Island where I live. the fact is, that today's "common" or "community" music is not this music. now, you can argue that the current "common" music is so dumbed-down that yesterday's rural dance music looks complex next to it, attracting its modern adherents accordingly, tho you can also argue that that argument is itself elitist and snobbish. whatever the reason.....this change is a fact.
on top of which, this fact is colliding with a phenom that is not a fact, but a stereotype, the stereotype being a form of reverse snobbery holding that professional types can't and shouldn't be able to do art to a high level of proficiency. some of this stems from envy of those gifted with left as well as right brains and able to use both well. some of it stems from the fact that our culture hates and punishes artists. the price our culture wants you to pay for being creative is poverty and deprivation. this is done by perpetuation of the myth that the "Artist" is a breed apart--a noxious idea that has been creeping into the irish music world a bit. we're now seeing people whose "day jobs" would surprise you going to great lengths to conceal what they do not out of egalitarianism, but out of having swallowed the "Artiste" myth and gotten notions about themselves.
Tthough on the other hand, every year new cds come out by nurses, music therapists, engineers, and, yes, doctors, that disprove the "breed apart" stereotype.
the "Artiste" thing would have been risible for most of human history, particularly the Renaissance. it's nonsense and propaganda, and people who break those rules by being good at both left-brain stuff and right-brain stuff are envied and feared.
i like the fact that people say in their liner notes or bios or interviews what they do, whether they're construction contractors, postmen, or nurses. i don't think it's a problem if they don't say what they do, but every proficient, good musico who does, helps counteract the culturally destructive modern (as in, last 150 years or so) stereotype that "Artist" is a separate category of human being. it's making the world into a place where vegetative blobs play video games, watch spectator sports, or pay to watch a teensy-eeensy percentage of "Artists" and envy them, rather than being creative themselves if they want to.
Ceemonster That was a brilliant post! I wont go into the nitty little things but I reckon if we were in a debate together on this subject you have just wiped the floor with me.The way you word your post I havnt a leg to stand on.You are correct and that is not a word I use lightly.I was not too happy with the way my op came out and by the time I realised there was a sentence in there I didnt like it was too late.Thank you for that post.
It makes no difference to me (or to anyone else, I should think) from a musical perspective, whether a musician is a postman, cab driver, doctor, engineer or full-time musician - as Ceemonster stats, it is merely a bit of interesting background information on the person, that cannot be gleaned from the music alone. In fact, it is surely a positive thing that traditional music spans the full range of professions and income bands - and that it is no longer snubbed by those who wish to consider themselves members of a higher social stratum. What is likely to irk me far more is when a CD cover states that the musician has some kind of musical qualification, as if to suggest that this makes them a better traditional musician. This might be an unreasonable prejudice on my part - that someone has a music degree from Trinity College Dublin is merely a piece of biographical information, as is being a tree surgeon or a bank manager. Whilst there might be individuals who regard themselves as universally superior because of their qualifications or profession, I have not noticed this attitude being prevalent in th traditional music world. The vast majority of people who play trad are in it for the music and nothing else - especially those who earn a good living in some other profession - and, as such, are unlikely to judge another musician on anything other than the strength of their playing.
If anything, the elitism I have come across in Ireland has more to do with provenance - how many generations of musicians are there in the family, what district you come from, who you learned from etc. The problem here is, coming from a family of tradtional musicians or from an area with a strong tradition, or being taught by a great musician, *does* produce good traditional musicians - perhaps not *all* the good musicians, and perhaps there are some people of unquestionable musical pedigree who turn out to be mediocre players, or lack interest in the music altogether - but certainly, family and local heritage, plays a lage part. So, whilst I may, on occasion, have resented the less-than-cordial reception I have received in certain musical circles, I cannot dispute the fact that these musicians, owing to their background, have a familiarity with the music that I can never hope to equal.
I actually meant to say "the elitism I have come across in *Irish Tradtional Music*". In fact, I suspect it may be more prevalent in Irish communities outside Ireland, where people feel a stronger need to protect their 'Irishness'.
Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
There was a time not so long ago when the music masters were generally tradesmen and labourers .The musicians called on to play for the housedances were regular people.They were a vital part of the community.Their music was a celebration of the ordinary people.The more educated and wealthy avoided our music in general and sometimes treated it with disdain.Why then have things changed so much that there is a fear (here in Ireland anyway) that ordinary people are being left out of the music more and more.People who have made cds have described themselves as doctors of one kind or other.I dont hear plumbers or carpenters or lads on the dole or musicians even mentioning their careers.This short muse comes after being accused of having bad english and grammar and stuff on a thread about bodhrans where I had gone on for too long.As the days went by since and I thought of many great musician friends who dont read and write but are well educated and fierce knowledgable.I found this elitism disturbing and discriminatory and irrelevant to having a chat about tunes.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I was once corrected for my use of the word perpendicular.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by edorian
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Ah yes, the days of Seán Reid and Bill Loughnane. Those were the days.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
it might be an attempt by professionals and the like you are describing to get some humanisation back into the lives to counterbalance the increasing corporatisation, depersonalisation and lack of control which seems to pervade workplaces increasingly. It seems to be a global phenomenon too, if that is of any significance.
In a slightly negative view however, it could be that it is in fact a sort of elitism, where people are seeking to add something "cool" to the cv, or "multi facet" their professional persona among peers, or simply a wish to demonstrate (to themselves and others perhaps) that "whatever you can do, I can do better". To me, that's the disturbing part, for all sorts of other reasons too.
Maybe they just like playing the music, simple as that, and the music is becoming popular across a greater range of society and among different cultures, that's a good thing.
I think I saw an interview or so, not so long ago, with Jeremy Irons was it?, who lives down around West Cork now, very concerned about trying to identify with some, any Irish forebears, and the music. Curious.
Why, I'm not sure, but there certainly seems to be a trend this way.
Go the tabber!
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
what do you do for a living Big Tab? Argueing that any social group should have prevalance within trad is elitist and unhealthy. So is ranting.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
It just points up what is a very important aspect to this music, and that is the community culture, and especially in Ireland.
It is quite different to go to genuine community, local sessions in Ireland and see how things go there, the craic and so forth.
They're the sessions I look out for anyway. Not the other carry on.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Prof.Its a nice post and I'm guessing you are making the point that the two great men you refer to were highly educated and you are of course correct.They were however men of the people.Loughnane was called Dr Bill out of affection I believe.Sean Reid I thought was an engineer in the council and drove the entire Tulla Ceili Band to their gigs because he was the only one who could afford a car!
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
He's not talkin' about prevalence of any group or another I don't think - he is just talking about "Dublin in the rare auld times" sort of thing.
He's a man seeing things change, it's not what he was used to when he thought it was better craic, that's all. Same in a lot of other areas too.
He's right though, it's a trend happening; it is how you view it though.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
In the US it is extremely difficult to make your living as a full time musician. The few years that I tried back in the 90's I barely made poverty level wages. We made and sold cd's and played lots of shows. We played country music because that's what sells best here. I hated every minute of it.
When not playing I still worked my trade (I'm a carpenter) so that I could pay the bills. I finally got kicked out of the band because the lead singer didn't like the "Irish" influence in my playing. I wasn't Nashville enough for them.
Ever since, I have immersed myself in playing ITM because that's what I love. I've played in lots of places and have seen many everyday people here and in Ireland who play and play well. No I don't make ITM cd's. I'm not interested in commercialism and marketing and I'm a terrible buisnessman. I like to play tunes. I like the way the music works as a social tool and stay plenty busy doing it. I doubt I'll ever make a cd other than the odd recording to give to a friend who wants to learn a tune.
I like to say that I work as a carpenter so I can afford being a piper
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Miss Mulligan.I have no problem with anyone playing music.Inverted snobbery is maybe worse .I just dont think when you make a cd that you have to tell people youre a doctor.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Could I politely enquire what line of work you are in, big_tab?
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I reckon he's a vet.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
You can john but I dont think what I work at is interesting.I love the anoninimity(can never spell that word) of the board if one wishes and its not about me.I am not a doctor.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
There's nothing wrong with being a doctor or being educated. Unless of course you are one of those who need to take potshots at folks who are successful and you take pride in being uneducated and poverty stricken.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
'Why then have things changed so much that there is a fear (here in Ireland anyway) that ordinary people are being left out of the music more and more? People who have made cds have described themselves as doctors of one kind or other.'
Where is that fear? What proof do you have of this?
Who has described themselves as 'a doctor' and by what means? I've probably read more CD liners and LP notes than most posters to this site and I can't recall more than a very few specific mentions to a musician's profession, and most of those were usually made in retrospective collections.
As for doctors - Seán Smyth and Séamus McGuire (medicine), Charlie Lennon (PhD physics) and Aidan Coffey (PhD engineering, I think) - or are you talking about postgraduates of UCL and UCC?
There are tons of traditional musicians in Ireland, from all manner of backgrounds, who are either fully or semi-professional (including quite a few who've never held down a day job in any other sphere). There are also many who work full-time in a wide variety of jobs.
I'm really not sure what your point is.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
he's not saying that there is anything wrong with it.
The thread title is about elitism and snobbiness in the music, as I read it.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Lads I have nothing against doctors!!!! The point is that at least 5 cds I know of tell us that the artist is a doctor..Who give s a crap what the musician works at.I like doctors.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Fair enough.
I would have thought that the people playing the music today are a broad slice of society. There will be some professional people amongst them but I don't think the class divides are anywhere near as great as they were in the era that you are referring to.
Times change and there is no point in bemoaning the fact. If you wanted to turn the clock back to that era then you would also be back to the times where someone like Willie Clancy could die at the age of 54 of a heart condition that would probably be treatable given today's medical standards.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by johndsamuels
an·o·nym·i·ty
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Mac Cruiskeen.You have named some of the people who have deemed it neccessary to tell us their profession.Now mac Cruiskeen tell me why they felt that neccessity.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
anon...ymity.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
John,with respect,you are missing the point.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Thanks Flynner!!
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
bould tabber!
Erin go bragh!
lol
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Mea culpa, big_tab, it was me that commented on the grammar, and in retrospect, it was a cheap shot. You appeared to be getting extremely frustrated in that discussion, and it was just going on and on with little point. My thought was that those who get their point across better in print are less apt to feel misunderstood and get frustrated about it when entering into the discussions here. But now that I think about it, I have seen some very articulate people get extremely frustrated in discussions around here, so the one doesn't necessarily lead to the other.
I think most of us around here don't comment on our professions because we want to focus on the music. Not that we laud one profession over another. There is a wide diversity of people from all walks of life at most sessions I attend, and no direct link between profession and musical abilities, one way or another.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I should imagine elitism and snobbiness abound, or at any rate are present, pretty well anywhere. Or at any rate people pulling rank on others maybe out of insecurity, maybe because they really can do their thing better without being impeded by those who are less good at it or not in the know. I do like to imagine that people in small, long-term communities occupy their various niches relatively peaceably, having known their capabilities relative to those of the others since early in life, but I may be wrong.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
big_tab, I think if you got out and travelled around more instead of hanging around reading cd sleeves, you'd find that the ordinary people are playing this music as much or more than ever.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Al. I sincerely appreciate that.It did disturb me and I dwelt on it.You are now my new friend!
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Glad I could make amends.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
One should almost forget the Deanof the Mater Hospital. But does it matter?
We are told Martin Rochford drove lorries and Willie Clancy was a painstaking joiner. The Dorans sold scrap and horses. CanonGoodman headed the Irish department in Trinity. Paddy Canny and Junior Crehan farmed. Eamonn McGiveny is the Man from the Ordnance Survey. Their professions put them in context or gets sung about.
In the meantime people in general get better education. So they carry doctorates and degrees around. Big deal.
The only who gets on my tits by using his titles is Prof. Dr. O Halloran. He just tends to take it a bit far.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
the worse thing is when the music scene gets imbued with political affinities and associated elitism.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Why should Gearoid come in for more criticism than others Prof? He is possibly the only one I have no problem with as he has contributed greatly to our knowledge of the music.His name is Ó hAllmhúráin by the way.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
When the music truly is an outgrowth of community--of friends and neighbors playing tunes together--then it makes complete sense to know what people do to earn a living. You know the people not just as musicians who sit in the circle, but also in terms of where they live, what they do for work, what other avocations they pursue, who their cousins are, etc.
My local session is very much this way--we include computer techies, music teachers, writers, a retail manager, college students, retirees, a naturopath, one with a doctorate in range science, and so on. Some of us have changed work several times in the years the sesh has carried on.
Some jobs may have more *perceived* prestige, but that's the perceiver's problem. It takes all kinds to make a community.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I usually find it mildly interesting to discover what a person does for a living in the liner notes. I think the function that it often serves is to highlight that the musician in question is an amateur who has decided to take the plunge and make a recording for various reasons. I have a recording of mandolin music made by a man in the west of Ireland who describes himself as a psychologist who lives in such and such a town. It seems to me to be quite a modest thing to say. It gives me the impression that the CD may be a personal milestone, or maybe his friends in the pub encouraged him to do it etc. etc. Of course all that's neither here nor there - it's the quality of the music that counts, isn't it?
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Quinno
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Ah Will..The other man not happy with my english. Peoples proffessions are irrelevant to the music and to cd sleeves.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Extremely sensible post there Will.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
It is the quality of the music that counts.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Hey quinno.Interesting.Not many mandolin cds from the west of Ireland.Is it John Colfer?
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
'Where is that fear? What proof do you have of this?'
You've still not answered this, big_tab.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
But big_tab, I think that is what Will is saying. In a session, especially a small town session, you do know what everyone does for a living, and your lives intersect outside the sessions. But when it is time for The Music and the camaraderie that comes with it, those professions don't matter.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Fair play MacCruiskeen.That sentence was a gut instinct and I immediately wanted to withdraw it.Allow me to withdraw it now if I can.You still havnt answered my question also.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Heh, I'm not unhappy with your English or your typing skills. I merely pointed out that disjointed writing is typically a sign of disjointed thinking. And so it seems.
Case in point: big_tab, you complain in your original post that once upon a time the musicians were "a vital part of the community," yet you don't like it when doctors say what their job is. I'm assuming medical doctors are included here? Are they not vital to their communities? And what about people with advanced degrees in, say, agriculture? Are they somehow superfluous to their communities? What if they use their degrees to more productively manage the family farm? In some cases, at least, what you call elitism smells more like progress to others.
Or should well-educated or well-employed people not be allowed to play this music?
Funny, but where I live, musicians *are* a vital part of the community, regardless of what their day jobs are. And what they do for their day jobs is also vital for the community, regardless of what type of music they play or how well they play it.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Yes big_tab it's John Colfer. And now that I think of it, I might be completely mistaken when I say that it mentions his profession in the liner notes! (which I haven't seen in years). It's possible that someone told me where he lives and what he does for a living when I was in the music shop in Kinvara when I bought it. My original point still stands though. I know that Kathleen Collins was a full time dance instructor around the time that she recorded "Traditional Music of Ireland" from the liner notes. The main idea that it gets across is that it's lucky that the recording was made in the first place - given the fact that she was so busy with her career.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Quinno
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I've never heard anybody declare his occupation while playing. The references on cds are written by the marketing people in an effort to lend some authority to the musician. I fear I am fighting a losing battle (well, not so much fighting as watching from the trenches) in keeping the music for, of and by the people. Once money is involved, we can kiss tradition goodbye. Until then, we can only play our best. The elitism I fear most is not that of other traditional musicians, but comes mainly via the media from self-styled authorities and 'classical' musicians who have all taken exams, therefore know better.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by gam
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Suppose, for supposition's sake you share your musical evenings with a lovely, highly educated human being who also happens to be a wretched musician. They've been that way for years; and there's no hope of improvement.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
In the OP, bt writes: "Why then have things changed so much that there is a fear (here in Ireland anyway) that ordinary people are being left out of the music more and more."
), but it strikes me that we are all "ordinary people," regardless of our education, job status, mailing address, etc. And isn't that all the more obvious when people in a town come together to make music? Regardless of whether one's clothes are more expensive than the next?
I realize that cultural differences weigh on this, and as a Yank I'm perhaps less inclined to consider people with doctorates as a higher class (lol, too many of them work at fast-food counters
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Will.A person of limited intelligence like what you think I am with my awful english would still know that a doctor is a vital part of the community.I believe it is some kind of snobbery for these musicians to have it mentioned on their cd sleeves.I cant think of one other reson for mentioning it.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Lawyers are part of every community. They can be very fun in a session. Although it can be a downer if they discuss their work too much. On the other hand their lawyer jokes can go all night.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
That's more the case in the US, random. Lawyers are pretty thin on the ground elsewhere.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Quigley, you seem to be put off by the mention of this particular profession.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Now you're making horrible assumptions about what I think, and I don't appreciate being cast in a bad light that I've done nothing to deserve. No where have I suggested that you aren't intelligent. But that doesn't stop you from making poorly thought-out statements here.
You say: "I believe it is some kind of snobbery for these musicians to have it mentioned on their cd sleeves.I cant think of one other reson for mentioning it."
Sorry, but just because you can't think of other reasons doesn't mean that that these people don't have other reasons. A number have been suggested in this thread.
Honestly, the problem I have with many of your posts is that you rarely take on board what others have to say in response, especially when lapses in your reasoning are pointed out.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I don't see it as a problem on liner notes,Even doctors can play this stuff and a lot of them do,I even know a rocket scientist that plays ok
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by edorian
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
'I believe it is some kind of snobbery for these musicians to have it mentioned on their cd sleeves.I cant think of one other reson for mentioning it.'
But you've still not said who these musician are nor answered my questions ''Where is that fear? What proof do you have of this?'
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
We're doing ad hominem today.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
The trouble with some people is that they believe everything they think. And they can't abide questioning it, or simply considering other possibilities.
While it may be true that we learn something when we're proven right, I suspect that we learn so much more when we're proven wrong. But we have to be open to that possibility.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Take heart, OP, for out our way there is a host of highly degreed people who are now, and probably always will remain awful musicians, God love 'em.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Oops, that was some reverse elitism and snobbishness there. Sorry.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
big_tab - So if a musician mentioned in their sleeve notes that they were a binman (garbage collector) would that make them an elitist snob, or is it only if you are a professional? Yes, inverted snobbery at its best. Music of the people? What a load of elitist crap. Why should a farmer have more respect for playing trad than a doctor?
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by bogman
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
In my humble opinion there is more than one way to consider the significance (or insignificance) of a person's profession &/or education. One may have a doctorate in traditional music or learn the tunes only from playing in sessions. Either way it doesn't mean one is better than the other at passing along tunes. That all comes down to how people get along musically, not the specifics of any given occupation.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I heard someone giving out once about Jeffries concertinas sitting on presses in Dublin4.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Doesn't anyone find mention of the background of the players on a CD interesting whatever they might do? To me it is interexting to know that X digs ditches or Y teaches doctoral level physics courses or whatever. The information adds to the way one hears the music. Doesn't make it better or worse, just changes perceptions some times.
So, snobbishness has nothing to do with it seems to me.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by cboody
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Join session.org! The most exclusive trad music website in the world! Everyone welcome!
)
(Well, you might like to think about that one ...
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Atahualpa Quigley, I didn't think we'd met, until I saw your post up above:
"Suppose, for supposition's sake you share your musical evenings with a lovely, highly educated human being who also happens to be a wretched musician. They've been that way for years; and there's no hope of improvement."
It seems our paths may have crossed after all!
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
One of the plus points about music and other arts is that the music (or whatever) cuts it or it doesn't, and is unable to pretend otherwise.
Elitism and snobbiness flourish more in places where immediate and definitive judgement of performance can be evaded.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Al, such things could be. Stranger things have happened. Which of us meets which description?
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I'd just like to say that I'm the dummy of my family, I'm the only one without a degree - wife, son, and daughter, all have them.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Degrees don't correlate with non-dummyhood.
Sometimes ditch-diggers need to know a lot about physics.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by polkageist
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
...there's the old saying that intelligence is what you use when you don't have an education.
Of course some people, with or without educations, forget to apply their native intelligence.
# Posted on July 11th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Tabby boy, is this perchance anything to do with nusic and codhrans?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Well ... christ on a bike:
"There was a time not so long ago when the music masters were generally tradesmen and labourers . The musicians called on to play for the housedances were regular people. They were a vital part of the community."
Never have I heard such utter toss. Where can you start? Doctors not a vital part of the community? Regular people v "Irregular" people? Feckin hell
There's some dumb senseless rubbish posted here, but this one really takes the biscuit (or is that the canapés?)
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Yep, moi aussie.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
And Michael Gill comes in with a valid point but delivers it with venom, writing: "There's some dumb senseless rubbish posted here, but this one really takes the biscuit (or is that the canapés?)"
He has now identified the OP as "dumb" and "senseless" and accused him of posting "rubbish," and according to his own stated doctrine, is now perfectly justified to cast insults.
I don't know if civil discourse is possible in this forum with tactics like this, but again, it's a pity, because Michael's point is valid. Is it possible for Michael to express himself without resorting to ad hominem? Only time will tell I suppose.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
As a graphic designer, I can understand why peoples professions would show up in the liner notes. The copywriter's job is to produce a bio on the artist, and they might find out what the person does for a living, if it isn't music related, and add it in to either fill space or because they, and the editor, found it something of interest. I doubt they included it thinking it would raise the artist's standing regarding the music. I have designed many a CD cover and produced bios and other text for the liner notes. I never stopped to think about what the effect of including the artist's profession would be in relation to their music.
So I'd say big_tab might be reading too much into what sometimes just comes down to filling space.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Ah The great Llig enters .Never have I said there is anything wrong with being a professional.All I have asked why is it only doctors that feel a need to state this on their cd sleeves. Mac Cruiskeeen you might have missed my retraction of the line you quote.You ask me to name the musicians.I dont like to but you have named two of them.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Phantom,Trad musicians write their own covers and stand over the wording.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Ah, back to the land of scoring points, where discourse is impossible. Good luck with that.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
In many cases, but not all... I've written copy for CDs that only one of the musicians on the recording were willing to review. Often these people don't have time nor energy to scrutinize every aspect of a CD layout and might delegate it to others and often overlook inaccuracies or allow something they later regret to make it to press. In some cases the artist might notice it but think nothing of it and not even consider whether or not mentioning it will enhance their perceived standings or not. I'm not saying what you're suggesting doesn't happen, but rather that it's hard to know for certain.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Will.No idea what points I am supposed to be trying to score.This is not an important part of my life .I just posted something I felt and since then I have been chatting about it and giving my opinion.Llig and Steve dont like it.You dont seem too impressed either.Thats ok with me.I might get a bit freaked if the 3 of you found anything interesting in my thoughts.I might become an annoyance like some other misfortunates who were eaten up here but its fun for me to participate and I appreciate being here.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Well, hasn't this gotten ugly while I was out enjoying the music tonight...
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
NEWS FLASH FROM YANKVILLE:
No elitism to be found! A gang of Irish descended Yanks sat around a pub all day playing jigs and reels and getting sauced. No one played like a jerk or acted the fool, until one sauced fiddler came home and posted this nonsense. [hiccup]
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I'm not wishing to appear elitist or snobbish here, but I thought you'd like to know that just the other day I was actually offered the post of the Principal Conductor to the Ulster Orchestra!
However, being an honest sort of a chap ............... I handed it back to the postman & told him that the conductor lives two doors along!
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Now Ptarmi, that IS really impressive.... As a power plant employee, I must stress the importance of conductors to the community.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Janek
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
It's all pay-as-you-enter round here...
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by gam
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Ptarmigan - So you listen to ISIHAC too.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
The best way to fix all the bellyaching about elitists and snobs is to just have a good fart or two. Maybe even three farts.
That always fixes bellyaches.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Blackhorse Road
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
There's no bellyaching in Middlefart
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I can answer this one.
The reason people mention that they are doctors is so that they can get some benefit from their qualification. The truth is, society doesn't value education anymore. People are more interested in whether or not you have any experience in a given industry. If you want a job in anything other than acedemia, it's best to omit "PhD" from your resume or people won't even want to interview you. This makes people who have high qualifications feel very disgruntled and undervalued.
So instead of getting a decent job that pays you more than the minimum wage, you have "Dr." put on your ATM card or put it on your album cover, if only to give yourself a few moments of pride in all those years of work which you thought would be worth your while.
Don't knock people for putting "Dr." on their CD inlay. Their years of hard work isn't being appreciated by you or pretty much anyone else in today's society, so let them just enjoy it for themselves just once, just give them that satisfaction. It's not harming you.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I think that there is elitism on the part of certain musicians[Ihave no idea what their professions are], there are also some very talented musicians who are full of humility.
there are one or two members of this forum who are elitist and snobby , I have no idea what they do for a living and quite frankly I dont care, there are also some very helpful members on this forum. after a while you learn who to avoid and you realise that enjoyment of playing music is the most important thing.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
If in my past I had recorded an LP of which a 100 or so were sold I might put that on the cover of my latest CD. If I had a CD, that is. It's a mark of a musical past, however feeble. On the other hand I probably wouldn't choose to call myself Real Name, MA (Oxon), PGCE, MPhil, MITI, because it with all that much space it would give the wrong impression, as if I thought it was important. But unlike those things, Dr is the accepted way to address someone with that qualification. It's just normal.
So you should call my daughter Dr, but I'll let you off calling me Master.
Congratulations btw Dr Dow, I take it you finished the process - well done!
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Alex Wilding
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Thanks Linga. Hurry up and do a PhD so I can accept you into my inner circle. I don't enjoy having to look down on you all the time
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Dr Dow.That makes a lot of sense and though I dont see things that way it is not disagreeable except of course that I reiterate that I have nothing against doctors except the ones that have to tell us what their job is on a music cd.It is plain ridiculous.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Hey -
I just finished my Shaolin Temple Online Correspondence Course (and it was a rugged three months at the keyboard, I can tell you).
Got the belt now, a bamboo flute, and everything.
So, can I, like, hang out with all you session dudes now?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Piece
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Thanks big_tab. Seriously though, you finish your years of work and come out of it bleary-eyed, under-nourished, pallid, depressed, stressed out and downright poverty-stricken but feeling pretty good about what you've achieved. Then you blink and take a moment to look around you. All your friends have high-paying jobs in the city, a house and a nice car, while you're struggling to get into any kind of career and you're barely able to buy enough food to keep you and your pet cat alive. You begin to wonder why you bothered.
I used to think people who called themselves "Doctor" were pretentious. They probably are. I don't care. I can't wait for the day when some admin staff member somewhere is rude to me and I can say really abruptly "actually it's DOCTOR to you". It would be worth the hard work just to see the look on their faces as they're thinking "god, what a pretentious, stuck-up c**t!"
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Total respect to that post Dr dow!!
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I had to get a new bank account the other day and just as I was giving my details to put on my ATM card, a friend reminded me that I should have "Mr." changed to "Dr.". I can't wait for the card to come through so I can take it out of my wallet sometimes and stare at it. Maybe I should get my driving licence redone and then deliberately get myself pulled over so I have to show it to the police: "We saw you using your mobile phone while driving... can I see your licence please?" "You're more than welcome, officer. That's my name at the bottom there. See?"
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
That post didnt work as well but keep them coming.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Would it help you get a bazouki through as carry-on baggage ?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by David50
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Bouzouki or bazooka? That could be an example where poor spelling could get you into serious trouble at the airport.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
big_tab jig may have nothing against you Dow. But remember, to him you're not a "regular person". You are not a "vital part of the community". Apparently there is a fear (yes, that's what he said, a "fear") that the regular people, the vital people, are being left out and supplanted by the likes of you who call yourselves doctors. Or have I misquoted him?
He refers to, "our music". By which he infers that he is a regular person, a vital part of the community, and a member of the privileged class that owns the music.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Yes siree indeedee ... while I've never ever come accross elitism and snobbiness in this music, it sure does abound in this fella's twisted bonce.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
On a note about graphic design ... I'm certain that I would eschew the employment of one who puts copy in - any old copy, regardless of any discussion of relevance - as a "space filler". A graphic designer who never stops to think about what the effect of including copy is, is not a professional graphic designer in my book.
And for anyone who doesn't know much about graphic design, it would be like a diddley musician filling a tune with twiddley bits merely as space fillers, regardless of their relevance to the tune.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Read the Op again Llig.You misrepresent me.I was talking about years ago at the house dances and soirees before music even started in the pubs. History. These days the dynamics of a community are different.The fact that the music is in the pubs means that everybody is involved.THIS IS GOOD.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Hey llig if you think that's bad, you'll love this thread over at concertina.net http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11405&st=144. It seems some people think that we non-Irish must be invited by real Irish people before we are accepted into the tradition and can make decisions about the music and how it is to be played. LOL...
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
(scroll to near the bottom of the page)
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
No, if I misrepresent you, then that could only because you misrepresented yourself in you original post.
You clearly state, "Why then have things changed so much that there is a fear (here in Ireland anyway) that ordinary people are being left out of the music more and more." (you kept out the question mark, making it a rhetorical question).
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I'll take your word for it Dow, it's enough to keep track of the idiocy here without trawling through it elsewhere.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Thank you for that, Dr. Dow. Thanks to shaunw and concertina.net, I now know that I am not entitled to an opinion on Irish trad (for want of a better term). Thanks to big_tab and this thread, I now know that "more educated and wealthy" people are not "regular people" and that this music is not for them.
I'm not wealthy (although, of course, I am immensely wealthy by, say, African standards) but I am educated. I'm not Irish. Time to slink off into the distance with my educated tail between my legs and leave the field to ignorant, poor, Irish people ...
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Llig you have obviously just come on and got stuck in without reading the thread.Its a really good idea to read everything.Twice above I have retracted that line.As far as" the vital part of the company" read the post and spot the past tense.We all speak here from our own experience and the experience of the west of Ireland is of house dances that were stopped by the priests so that the music went into the pubs and only then did the music go from the cottage to the general community.You call my thoughts idiocy and I have no problem with those words so Phantom its not a problem for me.Gives a bit of life to this board.I dont know where you live and what your experience of the music is but there are many 50 and 60 year olds here who used to hide their fiddles under their coats the disdain for the "peasant " music was so prevalent..
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Dont know where this "Irish" thing crept in.I love the fact that the music is everyones .Its amazing the things you can get accused of saying here! The vultures have landed.Welcome ethical.One of my favourite fiddlers is Patrick Orceau.Willie Kelly is a great musician.I dont give a sh*te where you come from.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I'm not acusing you of saying anything.
You amend your "a time not so long ago" to "years ago, history". You now think it's a good thing that the "more educated and wealthy" are a part of the music. You retract your "our music" reference in favour of "I love the fact that the music is everyone's". Do you still think there is a "fear" that "ordinary people" are left out? Do you still think that doctors are not ordinary people?
Is there anything in your original post you'd like to keep?
You said, "Read the Op again Llig.You misrepresent me."
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Though I havnt been around long I get the feeling that if I posted that" Tommy Peoples is an interesting fiddler" the likes of ethical blend and a few others would pop up to have a go.Its fun though and good practise for getting it on with the serious contributors who actually know something about the music. Mac Cruiskeen,Phantom Button,even Llig have an idea whats going on.Anyway once again I reiterate this is fun.I should start a new thread.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
The "Irish thing" wasn't directed at you, big_tab. Not *everything* is.
It was after following Dr. Dow's link. Though why I did what he said, even KNOWING that he's a DOCTOR and all, is a mystery. That sort of thinking is probably one of the features of me not being a "regular person". And the worst of it is, there's no way back for me now ... I suppose I could have a lobotomy ... :-\
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
:-\ =
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Llig you are implying my thoughts on the past apply to the present and they dont and I never said they did.I only allude to the present when I mention cd notes.In terms of the music 40 or 50 years is not neccessarily a long time.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Ooh look! I'm a vulture who doesn't have a clue what's going on and knows nothing about this music ...
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Ok ethical.. "regular people" does look a bit fecked up now that I read it again! Maybe I should make a run for it!
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Hmmm ... this thread was about elitism and snobbery, right? Aren't vultures allowed a say? Do you want to add them to the list of excluded professions?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I never wrote fecked! I hate that word!
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
What?? It's "fun" to start a thread about elitism and snobbery with an opening post riddled with elitism and snobbery? As I said, christ on a bike
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Of course ethical I will allow you your say.I am kind like that.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I once worked as a shelf stacker in Aldi. It was one of the worst jobs I've ever had. In the end I got the sack for telling the shift manager to eff off. Anyway, my point was that I always tried to hide the fact that I wasn't a regular person. But you know, normal people can tell. There's something different about us. Something about our eyes, maybe? Or it might be that one day you accidentally use proper grammar like "whom" and then you've blown your cover and the regular people rip you to shreds like a pack of wild dogs.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Once again llig thats the way it was not thankfully the way it is.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I might have been a doctor ... if my dad hadn't sent me to the right school
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I am a doctor but its not widely known as I never mentioned it on my fiddle cd where I was accompanied by Dr Charlie Lennon,joined on fiddles by Drs Sean,Breda and Cora Smith and sleeve notes by that great genius of trad Dr Micheal O'Suilleabhain. Now how did I know they are all doctors.? Get my point even a little bit now?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Um, you saw their names written down?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Dow!! The intellectual.I saw them written down on their cd sleeves.Never heard any other proffession mentioned on a cd sleeve.Garda Tommy Peoples?
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I'd love to rip you to shreds, Dr. Dow (if it would help) but, not being a regular person myself, I don't feel entitled.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Wow I just found out that doctor is my profession. All this time I could have been making good money. Anyone with medical problems PM me - I'll heal you for a price.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
PS big_tab:
It's "Dr." to you.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS. My life is complete.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
"I used to think people who called themselves "Doctor" were pretentious. They probably are. I don't care. I can't wait for the day when some admin staff member somewhere is rude to me and I can say really abruptly "actually it's DOCTOR to you". It would be worth the hard work just to see the look on their faces as they're thinking "god, what a pretentious, stuck-up c**t!"
"
Congratulations! Enjoy it Dr. Dow. You are spot on about how much good it does. Think of it as a union card to teach at University.....
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by cboody
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
"Never heard any other profession mentioned on a CD sleeve"
Not a CD - before they were invented - on the LP record "Billy Clifford : Irish Tradtional Flute Solos & Band Music from Kerry & Tipperary" :-
"During the day, Billy worked as a TV repair man, and in 1969, he moved to work for RTV {sic} in Tipperary town."
I could probably find more.......................
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Kenny
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
LOL, if you think you get satisfaction out of waving your Dr. around, just imagine how good it felt to me to teach graduate level courses at a university law school, and me with nothing more than a bachelor's in English.
Life ain't fair.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
This explains it all...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjvweTcSazE&feature=related
Part II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6GEXu4ilpo&feature=related
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Dzia Dzia
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Going back over the OP here, maybe it would help to point out that the written nature of participating on this forum places more weight on literacy, basic typing skills, and (oddly enough, not Gaelige) an emphasis on the English language. Many of us here take this into account and give the benefit of the doubt to posters who clearly aren't wordsmiths, or for non English speakers. (I was once fluent in Italian, but it would take me weeks or months to get up to speed again enough to participate at all meaningfully on an Italian language forum.)
Sorry, but basic literacy is very nearly a requirement of participation on net forums like this. It's a skillset like any other, and if you want to join in here, it only makes sense to sharpen your skills and knowledge. Getting called on the carpet for being nigh unintelligible and then complaining about it here is akin to griping about a session playing too fast just because you can't play at normal tempos.
In short, calling someone elitist and a snob because they have basic skills and you don't is a Dark Ages mentality that benefits no one.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I hate it when Will sits on the fence ...
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
# Posted on July 12th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Michael writes: "On a note about graphic design ... I'm certain that I would eschew the employment of one who puts copy in - any old copy, regardless of any discussion of relevance - as a "space filler". A graphic designer who never stops to think about what the effect of including copy is, is not a professional graphic designer in my book."
You obviously have never worked in the industry and have no concept of what exists in the real world of graphic arts and advertising. But as someone who has, I can guarantee you that the industry is nowhere as ideal as you like to think it is. Maybe you've never heard the saying: don't believe everything you read.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
ha ha, I never said there weren't people employed as graphic designers who exhibit those traits, I just said I'd never employ one.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Michael, so what's your point then, that because YOU would never employ one, the idea that the production of liner notes with inaccuracies or overlooked details isn't possible? Or are you suggesting that you employed the graphic artists that included details about people's occupations outside of the music on the recordings BT was referring to and they were perfect because of it? What were you saying?
I don't think anyone here would want to hire graphic artists that just provides thoughtless "filler," but they are out there and they are doing it. But I also don't think you understand the process of creating graphic design; there are many stages, and sometimes details that are wrong or unintended manage to sneak in to the finished product by mistake. Sometimes details are edited out and then reappear in the finalization of the product because of technical errors. But in this case I think it's more likely that the details were added and when they were run by the artist for approval, the artists never imagined the idea that mentioning it would fall under the sort of scrutiny that is happening here.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Sean Smith, a very likable guy does a little Doctoring on the side
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by edorian
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
To will harmon.As i am precluded from saying what I would like I would say it is only your opinion that my english is limited .Your English is proper but extremely unpleasant and patronising.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
PB, You had two posts above:
One where you introduced yourself as a graphic designer and blamed the copywriter for space fillers and yet admitted that as a designer, you never stopped to think.
And the other where you introduced your self as a copywriter and blamed inaccuracies and irrelevancies on the refusals of others to proof read.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Llig,you are up late!
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Yeah, I'm trying to work. Leave me alone
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
big_tab, Remember at the beginning of this thread when I apologized for taking a cheap shot at your grammar in a previous thread? Please note that I did not apologize for calling you out for perpetuating an ugly and negative argument in that same thread, and flogging a discussion that was going nowhere. And I am sad to say, you are doing it again. Up above, you said, "Anyway once again I reiterate this is fun.I should start a new thread." And I see that a new and negative thread has indeed appeared. You obviously are taking great enjoyment in stirring the pot, and bringing out negativity. I am afraid that what Will is saying, you brought about yourself with your behavior. Your mode of argument, to use your own words, is "extremely unpleasant."
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Heavy...Sorry to bother you.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Fair enough Al.. You are a straight talker .I have tried to explain myself at the end of the other thread. I am not stirring the pot.I believe strongly in the defence of the bodhran and I believe the term diddley music is known now to be offensive and probably has been all the time.This thread wasnt worded right and I messed up a bit . I see I am isolated on this forum with my ideas.However I reitirate their is something repugnant to me when someone denigrades someone for a perceived lack of communication skills.Once again I appreciate your directness but one thing...they are not negative threads. I defend the bodhran and I suggest people dont use a known derogatory term.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
@Will
"
"LOL, if you think you get satisfaction out of waving your Dr. around, just imagine how good it felt to me to teach graduate level courses at a university law school, and me with nothing more than a bachelor's in English.
Life ain't fair.
Try to recall what Garrison Keillor said about degrees in English ;)
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by cboody
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I still don't get your point, Michael, I'm simply pointing out how inaccuracies and unintended statements might make it to press. My personal example was about how the client in some CD's I've designed have been lackadaisical in their effort to control what makes it to press. I didn't indicated that I neither care nor make any effort to get the final product accurate, but I did point out that I might not concern myself with the issues raised in this thread either; that would be up to the artist.
You seem to be on some sort of fishing expedition, Michael.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
tabby, don't believe everything you think.
I happen to know what Michael does for a living, and how talented he is at it. So at least this thread is good for a few laughs.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
If I change my handle to "Dr. SilverSpear" after I finish this bloody degree, will that make me into an elitist snob?
But I find big_tab's posts a bit gramatically awkward and difficult to follow. Maybe I've achieved snobbery and elitism without the PhD to prove it.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
The denigration of bodhrans, along with the denigration of The Music in general, won't stop any time soon, if ever. We must be strong. Bin Men Without Borders will never enjoy the fame and recognition of that other bunch -- who stole the idea for their name from us, btw.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
he music is full of bios and/or liner notes mentioning along the way what people do or did in their "other" lives. it's hardly limited to doctors. and yes, there are a good number of professions or metiers cited that involve higher-level, including graduate professional-level, education. but that is not about snobbery or elitism any more than the high degree of bios mentioning "farmer" or "carpenter" for older generations of irish musicians was some kind of rural proletarian snobbery.
it is a fact, rather than an opinion, that as the demographic function or status of a given genre of music changes, the demographics of many of its adherents change. i'm not saying it's good or bad, it's just a fact. it's not snobbery or elitism, it is just a demographic fact. and irish music, like many, many other genres born as dance-based rural community music, is one of those genres that has entered that phase. this is a controversial issue generating much hand-wringing in american jazz, which has become an Academy-sponsored "art" music to the dismay of many who i think should be out there swinging rather than bewailing a demographic change they can do nothing about..
if you go onto the archives of the rte "bloom of youth" series (i think it's rte, and i think kieran hanrahan is the host) where interviews with wonderful young irish players are interspersed with cuts of their playing, and listen to those shows, the fact is that over ninety percent of those young players mention during the interviews that they are in uni or headed for uni. i've heard dentist, engineer, doctor, and scads of u-limerick masters-level ethno people....just heard an interview on clare fm with a newly-minted m.a. music therapist. they're not being snobs. they're just factually answering perfectly normal questions about what they are doing or preparing to do work-wise with their lives.
this cultural/demographic fact is also largely the case with players of this music here on Turtle Island where I live. the fact is, that today's "common" or "community" music is not this music. now, you can argue that the current "common" music is so dumbed-down that yesterday's rural dance music looks complex next to it, attracting its modern adherents accordingly, tho you can also argue that that argument is itself elitist and snobbish. whatever the reason.....this change is a fact.
on top of which, this fact is colliding with a phenom that is not a fact, but a stereotype, the stereotype being a form of reverse snobbery holding that professional types can't and shouldn't be able to do art to a high level of proficiency. some of this stems from envy of those gifted with left as well as right brains and able to use both well. some of it stems from the fact that our culture hates and punishes artists. the price our culture wants you to pay for being creative is poverty and deprivation. this is done by perpetuation of the myth that the "Artist" is a breed apart--a noxious idea that has been creeping into the irish music world a bit. we're now seeing people whose "day jobs" would surprise you going to great lengths to conceal what they do not out of egalitarianism, but out of having swallowed the "Artiste" myth and gotten notions about themselves.
Tthough on the other hand, every year new cds come out by nurses, music therapists, engineers, and, yes, doctors, that disprove the "breed apart" stereotype.
the "Artiste" thing would have been risible for most of human history, particularly the Renaissance. it's nonsense and propaganda, and people who break those rules by being good at both left-brain stuff and right-brain stuff are envied and feared.
i like the fact that people say in their liner notes or bios or interviews what they do, whether they're construction contractors, postmen, or nurses. i don't think it's a problem if they don't say what they do, but every proficient, good musico who does, helps counteract the culturally destructive modern (as in, last 150 years or so) stereotype that "Artist" is a separate category of human being. it's making the world into a place where vegetative blobs play video games, watch spectator sports, or pay to watch a teensy-eeensy percentage of "Artists" and envy them, rather than being creative themselves if they want to.
# Posted on July 13th 2010 by ceemonster
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Shall I arrange for your shift key to be mended?
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
ceemonster may have said it without capitals, but he said some capital things!
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
Ceemonster That was a brilliant post! I wont go into the nitty little things but I reckon if we were in a debate together on this subject you have just wiped the floor with me.The way you word your post I havnt a leg to stand on.You are correct and that is not a word I use lightly.I was not too happy with the way my op came out and by the time I realised there was a sentence in there I didnt like it was too late.Thank you for that post.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
It makes no difference to me (or to anyone else, I should think) from a musical perspective, whether a musician is a postman, cab driver, doctor, engineer or full-time musician - as Ceemonster stats, it is merely a bit of interesting background information on the person, that cannot be gleaned from the music alone. In fact, it is surely a positive thing that traditional music spans the full range of professions and income bands - and that it is no longer snubbed by those who wish to consider themselves members of a higher social stratum. What is likely to irk me far more is when a CD cover states that the musician has some kind of musical qualification, as if to suggest that this makes them a better traditional musician. This might be an unreasonable prejudice on my part - that someone has a music degree from Trinity College Dublin is merely a piece of biographical information, as is being a tree surgeon or a bank manager. Whilst there might be individuals who regard themselves as universally superior because of their qualifications or profession, I have not noticed this attitude being prevalent in th traditional music world. The vast majority of people who play trad are in it for the music and nothing else - especially those who earn a good living in some other profession - and, as such, are unlikely to judge another musician on anything other than the strength of their playing.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
If anything, the elitism I have come across in Ireland has more to do with provenance - how many generations of musicians are there in the family, what district you come from, who you learned from etc. The problem here is, coming from a family of tradtional musicians or from an area with a strong tradition, or being taught by a great musician, *does* produce good traditional musicians - perhaps not *all* the good musicians, and perhaps there are some people of unquestionable musical pedigree who turn out to be mediocre players, or lack interest in the music altogether - but certainly, family and local heritage, plays a lage part. So, whilst I may, on occasion, have resented the less-than-cordial reception I have received in certain musical circles, I cannot dispute the fact that these musicians, owing to their background, have a familiarity with the music that I can never hope to equal.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
"the elitism I have come across in Ireland"
I actually meant to say "the elitism I have come across in *Irish Tradtional Music*". In fact, I suspect it may be more prevalent in Irish communities outside Ireland, where people feel a stronger need to protect their 'Irishness'.
# Posted on July 14th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
mary mcnamara lists her profession on her cd "blackberry blossom." something about teaching blind kids.... other people list professions, it seems....
# Posted on July 16th 2010 by daiv
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
I rather thought she was the proprietor of McNamara's supermarket in Tulla. She may well have a few more irons in the fire though.
# Posted on July 16th 2010 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Elitism and snobbiness abounds in the music.
She teaches alright.Loads of children playing real decent music.Dont think they have to be blind though.
# Posted on July 17th 2010 by big_tab