A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I may have a little too much time on my hands but this thought struck me, that I felt compelled to share with you.
When either making or reskining a bodhran that age old problem of where to put your tipper when reaching for your pint would be instantly be resolved if, when the goat or kangaroo skin is being stretched that the arse hole be centred in the middle.
Now you know where to put it.
PS It doesn't work with all skins... elephant in particular
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
If you carried a drum like that, just think of all the possibilities for conversation starters:
"Wanna see my 'special' drum? It's got a special place for me to put my tipper!"
I can just see it now: a drummer chatting up a pretty girl at the bar: "And this is where you put the tipper!"
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Its interesting to check out the silly humourless smug contributors here who think they are hilarious with their amazing witticisms on bodhrans and bodhran players. I would be much happier to see Donnacha Gough,Ringo Mc Donagh,Ger Hoyne ,Seamus O'Kane and scores more musicians on that instrument coming into a session than these gobdaw contributors.
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If the maker could just leave a few inches of rectum and colon attached they could double as a handy tool for damping the sound and as a useful storage pouch for tippers.
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Big-Tab... Gam's right, those guys would laugh loudly as I have an idea that the sound quality would be a tad brutal. Still, the novelty factor would be a big talking point.
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"If the maker could just leave a few inches of rectum and colon attached"
Steve: Thanks a LOT for THAT visual - I couldn't breathe for a good minute, laughing.
Wow.
Simply horriffic.
Big Tab: Sorry to offer you yet more attention in this rather fun thread, but why not learn the first lesson from all the good bodhran makers:
It's not good to have TOO thin of a skin.
If you look into the past, there HAVE been, oh, one or two serious informative discussions about the Irish Beer Tray over the years.
I agree with Steve, lighten up please.
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It occours to me that an alternative use for a 'skin' of this type might be for old style banjo. As violins have 'f' holes could the banjo benefit from the added sonority provided by the natural design and qualities inherent?
Of course extreme care would have to be exercised in the positioning of the orifice so the bridge don't fall down the 'ole.
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Despite being a classy lady, my wife is a bodhran player (who is learning to play whistle) and I couldn't resist reading this thread to her. We both laughed and chuckled all the way through. It's good to know that mustardia still has the craic!
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Anyway it shows that humour is a strange thing and possibly varies from country to country. Delighted though that you all enjoyed this thread so much.It'll keep you off the streets and safe from the real world.
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I salute you buddhuu! Its good to defend good music.Its like Seamus Ennis gave the bodhran a downer with one original witty put down 45 years ago and these boyos are getting in on the dangerous art of bodhran put downs.Thrill seekers indeed.Two amazing bodhran players that are as one with the music and give the fluters and fiddlers the body to express themselves better are Kevin Crawford and Christy Moore.
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Buddhuu... you really need to get out more. Like you, I play a variety of instruments including the bodhran and am more than happy to admit that from time to time I play at our local bodhran only session www.curiadydrwm.co.uk and will allways defend the use of this ancient instrument in ITM. So just take this thread in the same vein as everyone else here has... it is just light hearted fun.
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Budduu, if you don't like it go and kiss the middle of your own goat skin. The few good players apart, the world is packed with tuneless, clueless, rhythmless, moronic belters thinking it's their right to turn up at sessions and 'join in'. The more slagging they get online the better. If it puts even one of them off then it's worth it.
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It may be a universal of sociology that humorous informal speech of various forms, including jokes, "funny stories", gossip, and the like - certainly including "slagging" - serve the purpose of establishing and passing on the the expected norms of a society. By making fun of the bodhran player who fails to exhibit certain values - respect for the tune and for the other players - we are actually telling each other what is expected at a session, for all players.
So it's actually not just light-hearted fun. It's also a critical part of maintaining the tradition. Slag a bodhran player for decency!
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It is lighthearted fun on this thread agreed but there is a perception that it is fun to slag bodhrans on this forum which is unpleasant and nothing to do with humour . I havnt heard a bad bodhran player in ages but I have heard scores of out of tune flute players and that is the most annoying thing in a session without exception.Anybody gonna start a thread slagging flute players?
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big_tab, if you really want to know why the bodhran is such a popular target, think about the investment of effort involved in playing the flute versus the bodhran. A fast learner might be up and running with their first tunes on the flute in, what, a year? Playing seriously in a few years? Probably not much faster than that from a standing start, and likely it'd take a bit longer for most.
The bodhran, you can learn everything you need to know in an afternoon, and after a week or so you'll have it down, and at the end of it you never have a single tune.
So when a flute player doesn't come up to par, it's because they're actually trying to do something that's difficult. When a bodhran player gives you a foot bath* it's because he can't be bothered to learn the simplest thing known to man. And that's why people slag the bodhran and not so much the flute.
But if you feel there's a need for a flute-slagging thread, I'm sure nobody will stop you.
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Jon Kiparsky
This will probably get me slagged silly on this board, but I for my sins teach the bodhran.
In teaching the bodhran I usually go through the following stages;-
Ergonomics of holding and playing the drum.
Basic rhythms
Skin control
Initial playing to a tune - to do this I get them to hum/lilt/sing the tune and accompany themselves on the drum
Tune analysis - parts and phrases and how to fit rhythms to them.
Working with an instrumentalist, including listening to what is being played and working with the variations the tune player is putting into the tune.
Iyou think that can be done in a week or so, then can I beg to differ.
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No, Jon's right. I have never played bodhrán because I've always said I can't play it. I was taught how to once, by someone, who should know better, but who thinks they're a great bodhrán player. It took an hour. In that time, I could hear that I was about twice as good as he was. It sounded complete crap. Still, loads better than the majority of people who thump the wretched things.
Now, there are *some* who can actually play the thing. I can think of three.
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And now that we can't tell jokes related to sex, religion, national origin, mood, hair color, etc, due to political correctness, the bodhran players are about the only target that is still fair game!
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And I must seriously take issue with ethical blend. There are far more than three people who can actually play the thing. It's just that only three of 'em ever do!
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Davy - I'm impressed by your abilities as a businessman. Not many people can stretch out a bodhran lesson that far.
So how long does it take with your method to be session-competent? I tend to figure someone's ready for a session when they can tell a reel and a jig and play something suitable, and they can tell when it's not a jig or a reel, and shut up without being told.
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They're ready for a session when they know every tune they play on as well as the melody players do, but by that point they realise that the drum adds nothing in any case so they don't play it. Bodhrans are for bands by mutual agreement, not for sessions. It's the bodhran owners getting this confused who cause all the bother.
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I have to disagree with you there, Steve. There are people who play nothing but bodhran and a) play it in a way that doesn't screw things up for the rest of the musicians and b) add plenty by way of craic, and thereby justify their place at the table.
I don't think I know of a whole lot of people who add much, musically speaking, to a session simply by playing the bodhran, but a session isn't just about the music - if it were, it would be - um, well, let's just say it isn't just about the music.
The trouble comes when a bodhran player either doesn't understand the music well enough to fulfill condition a, or fears that they have to add more to the music than their instrument is constitutionally disposed to provide. Either case is a session-buster, in my view.
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Steve . You have managed to disparage and dismiss some of my favorite musicians with your simplistic comments. I was watching a session recently and it was going along beautifully.Fine musicians in a nice understanding of the tunes.one would think it doesnt get any better.Then Donnacha Gough joined and the whole room got the energy and the groove.Feet were tapping everywhere and there was smiles all round.We all knew that we were lucky to be there.The bodhran player did this ,The musicians responded to his energy and rhythm . I know loads of bodhran players and bouzouki players that can do this.However if I want to listen to ,say,James Kelly playing the fiddle I dont want to hear or see a bodhran because it cant improve the music.
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True, a session isn't just about music, Jon. Similarly, taking your loved one to a romantic candle-lit restaurant for a meal isn't just about the food, but one pubic hair in your bolognaise will still wreck the whole evening, n'est-ce pas?
Maybe Kernow just doesn't attract decent bodhranistas and I consequently have developed a jaundiced view, but I've yet to meet one who has contributed anything other than grimaces. Bodhrans in bands, great (sometimes). In sessions? Not in mine, thanks.
As for my dismissing "someone or other's" favourite musicians with my disparaging comments, well I've searched the thread and whaddya know? I haven't named a single name! And, again, this is not supposed to be a serious thread as I recall, or at least it wasn't. Post a thread about your favourite bodhran players and I absolutely promise to keep out.
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I just realised that the thread title includes repairers as well as makers. If the arse hole idea catches on, will repairers have to deal with anal fissures then?
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Hi Jon
I am a rotten businessman, I teach bodhran through Comhaltas, so I get paid nothing.
As to being session ready - if they already play a melody instrument, then say 2-3 months to become session competent by my standards and a year at least to become competition competent.
Rhythm players - i.e. bouzouki, guitar, etc or a ceili band drummer would take 2 months as they already have some idea of rhythmic accompaniment.
A complete beginner, with no prior background, would take longer.
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Davy - okay, so 2-3 months, maybe 4-5 for a total novice? Okay, let's go with that then. Now, what's your best guess on how long it takes a flute player to get to the point where they can drop in on a session and play even a few tunes at a similar level of confidence? I'd guess a year at the inside, starting from scratch, most people seem to take somewhat longer than that. To be "session ready" - to have enough tunes to sit down at the table and not spend the whole night waiting for one of the tunes that you know - would probably add a few years for repertoire development.
So do we agree that you could learn the bodhran at least twice in the time it takes to get fairly started on the flute? Does anyone still wonder why the bodhran is considered an easy instrument?
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Oh, and Davy, you really ought to start charging for your services. You might find that your students learn faster when it's coming out of their pocket and not yours.
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Jon
Given how hard it is for me to get an embouchure on a flute, I would agree that flute is not an easy instrument to learn. In fact for me uilleann pipes is an easier instrument than flute (and that is saying something).
As the bodhran being considered an easy instrument, then I agree that is the perception, given the number of ignorant bashers there are going around. But becoming good (by my standards, which are likely much higher than yours) on the instrument takes years of work and practice. Steve or llig will probably say I should have put that work into a melody instrument instead, but I get an atavistic pleasure out of percussion instruments, that only uileann pipes, of the melody instruments in ITM, gives me and I am slowly learning to play them.
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I won't go into who's got higher standards for bodhran playing, since that's a fairly futile ground for contention, but we're agreed that any chucklehead can pick up the sideways bongo in January and sit down at a session and play by July. It's possible that, if they have a good teacher like you or me, and they work at it a little, they'll even be able to play well enough, and be good enough at not playing, that only the hard-core bodhran haters will annoyed.
Granted, there'll still be something to learn, but any melody instrument you can name takes two to six times as long (depending on the player and the instrument) to get to the point of sitting down and playing with others. That melody player will still have years to go before they're really good, mind you, this is just to be able to really start learning.
So yeah, the bodhran is a pretty easy instrument by your standards and by mine. That's the perception and that's the fact. So if you have an instrument that you can learn in months and max out in a year or two, and that's all you care to learn, it's hard for people who dedicate years to learning the ins and outs of a serious instrument to take you seriously. (the "you" here is the impersonal, evidently you, Davy, also play instruments).
Basically, the bodhran is a toy, it's a party trick. It's fun, it can be fine to have one around, but the more its partisans insist on some degree of credibility, the less seriously the rest of us take it. Basically, if you're a bodhran banger and only that, you've dedicated your life to mastering the six-inch high jump. You'll probably still be welcome at the sessions if you've got some good craic, but don't expect any respect as a musician.
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Has there ever been a musical tradition or style on this planet that DOESN'T make fun of the drummer? Time for some wider perspective, perhaps. Such is your lot, drummers. It is what it is. [shrug]
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I dont know about that Jon..Actually forget the niceties.Thats rubbish.The bodhran players that play where I live ,John Maloney,James Duddy,Dermot Sheedy,Ger Hoyne,Tommy hayes,Liam Hickey,Geraldine Mc Gowan,Sean mc Grath,Kevin Crawford ,are all respected as musicians who are dedicated to the music.These session.org anti bodhran threads do not represent ,in my opinion,the thoughts of the music community in Ireland who stopped tolerating gobsh*tes on any instrument ruining the sessions years ago.
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Are we saying that bodhrans are always welcomed without fail wherever you go in Ireland? And even in the extremely unlikely event of that being the case, are we saying that this somehow legitimises the thing? What line of thinking am I picking up here...??
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Again that question is irrelevant,with respect to you john,because all that matters is that these musicians add hugely to our joy and good times with their BODHRAN playing.
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S rry Steve,Didnt see your post.I am saying that MUSICIANS are welcomed without discrimination(as there is here) in the music pubs of Ireland.Anyone who can get the feet tapping and maybe play for a set.There is no ill feeling towards any musicians.
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It's not irrelevant. You said that Jon K's post was rubbish. His main point was that if you play the bodhran and nothing but the bodhran then you can't expect much respect as a musician. You've offered up no arguments against that particular viewpoint.
So in Ireland would you say that a bodhran player of middling ability enjoys the same standing as a musican as a flute player of middling ability?
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I dont think its the instrument that decides that john. If someone is interfering with the music on any instrument they dont command respect.I think a good bodhran player gets as much respect as any other instrumentalist.
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No, it's the way that Ireland is somehow being set up as the final arbiter here. The last resort, etc. My experience of Ireland is very limited, but at the Dublin sessions I did go to (and joined in I hasten to add) I didn't see a bodhran at all and my instinct told me that the sudden appearance of same would not have been welcomed. This is a discussion forum in which words are all we have. In the real world things can be unspoken but still well-understood.
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No Steve.I really would hate to set up Ireland as the final arbiter.I dislike that notion.The music is everywhere,for everybody and its wonderful.All I can speak from is my own experience here in Co Clare where musicians from all over the world join us and live among us and I dont hear one word spoken against the bodhran and I dont see any more poor bodhran players than any other instrument.
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exactly. My experience is mainly of Clare and I have not heard disparaging remarks.
It is nothing about being an arbiter; I think it is more a cultural difference in communication frankly.
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I think it's more do do with the fact that on a discussion forum you can't easily slyly hint, wink, roll your eyes, give knowing looks, V-signs behind the back, communicate with body language, etc. All we have is typed words. There's a hell of a lot of stuff we talk about here that doesn't necessarily get aired much down the pub in the real world. Not in so many words. This is an illegitimate line of argument, innit. No-one in Ireland is heard slagging off bodhrans, it's alleged. First, I really don't have to believe that, and second, we musical types tend to be too good-mannered to slag bodhrans off in front of the owner's face (more's the pity), and, what's more, if no bodhran shows up at all we're hardly likely to sit there yapping about 'em all night, are we?
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swfl .Lets take the humour out of it.I have acknowledged that this started as a humourous thread and it was me that got stuck in and slagged off the humour.It is however perceived by me that when that put down of an instrument becomes the norm it lowers the standards for a proper discussion forum on the music.My point is maybe that because a few people here find it hilarious to put down bodhran players doesnt mean that those who find it infantile cant state that.It is interesting too that some contributors who Have hugely interesting views on aspects of the music have so little respect for musicians like the ones I have mentioned above.
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Why not just leave the humorous thread to be humorous and start a parallel po_faced bodhran thread? We'll all be so busy being exceedingly humorous and rejoicing in our epic wit over here whilst you plough your serious, bodhran-celebrating lonely furrow over there that we won't even notice and we certainly won't be hijacking you. I've decided that I've been far too guilty of serious behaviour in this thread and from now on it's back to being an infantile t0sser of the first order...
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Good stuff Steve you go back to being a tosser.Its far more interesting than having a serious discussion on the place of the bodhran today in the music..
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And so the same five or six contributors carry on and nothing changes on the session.org. I havnt being defending bodhrans with my efforts here.I have been defending musicians. Jon ,some day you might be lucky enough to be joined in music by some of the musicians I have named above and hopefully your estimation of their music will change and the ignorance of your comment above will become clear to you.
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"The place of the bodhran in the music?Preferably,out of the way of it." Maybe there is a different, hidden meaning somewhere Jon but I object to any musician being told they arent wanted.
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anyway, the sessions are great craic in Ireland, the ones I've been to anyway, mostly in Clare, the people are great, and I don't have to tell or listen to bodhran jokes. There are some great players there anyway, so why?
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Same in Kernow. It's what I'm trying to tell you. We tell mostly banjo jokes here. I've heard that orchestral musicians are always having a go at the viola players. Harmonica players? Open season. So what? Bodhran owners ought to have thicker skins.
Hey, I just said "bodhran players ought to have thicker skins..."
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We started with musical comedy, now we seem to be trudging through some dreary opera piece where everyone is moaning and suffering...how dare anyone joke around, when music is such a serious business...
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Well I feel like a proper bodhran player now - Steve and llig have slagged me - thanks lads keep it up I can take it.
Steve - my skin is like a rhino's, and my stomach like a hippo's. No problems with a thin skin here :P
Llig, you gave me a good laugh re the hippy comment, maybe I should play my bodhran with flowers in my hair (I can imagine the adjudicator's face in Cavan LOL).
Codhrans Steve? is that where you leave another part of the goat in the middle of the skin, to match the player.
If you know any new bodhran jokes please tell me them, I like them as much as any melody player. My favourite one would likely get me banned from the site.
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To Llig who asks how long I am here.Many people like myself have been reading session .org without joining up.I have been reading your very interesting thought s on music for about 5 years.
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"oh, ok, the funnies.
Kernow! Kernow?? Who the feck would want to go to Kernow for a session. I mean *realleee". ROFL.
Ker-thefeck-now?
There you go, was that funny?"
Hilarious. Why, I shall certainly need a new corset now. It also confirms what we all know, of course. That Irish music should only be played by Irish people in Ireland. Well done.
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David, I did not direct any comments to you personally. I'm sure you're a super bodhran player. My codhran is to bodhran as tabby's nusic is to music. But that moment has passed. I suppose it could mean a bodhran made out of fish skin. You could even use it then to practise your scales (geddit?). That would meet with at least one person's approval I should think. As for more bodhran jokes, frankly I've haddock up to here with 'em.
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Steve ,instead of focusing on the fact that I spelt music with an n by mistake could you perhaps explain to me exactly why you dont think the bodhran players I have listed above would not be welcome to your session and would have nothing to add to the music.I extend this question to Llig also and Jon K.
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I didn't really focus on it much, did I? I don't know those bodhran players you mention except from records on which they play in bands. I don't care for bodhrans in sessions because most people who have one can't play it very well, so the chances are, if you see one coming, you're going to have a wrecked evening. The other reason I don't like 'em is because they provide an unnecessary bolt-on to Irish music in my opinion (I stress). All the dynamism and rhythmic drive is already there in the tunes in my opinion (I stress) and a thumping noise on top (or underneath) at best adds nothing and at worst ruins the feel of the tunes. And most people who play 'em think they don't need to know the tunes. It's a reel and that's good enough for 'em. The result is usually insensitive and inappropriate accompaniment which is very annoying for those who have taken the trouble to learn the tunes. There, my polite opinion (I stress) on a matter which has been aired a thousand times before. Yawn.
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I have listed 5 or 6 bodhran players who play regularily in Co Clare and who are loved and respected for the pleasure they give us with their music.Multiply that by 32 other counties and you have approx 180 good musicians.Maybe double that internationally and you have 360 fine musicians who you ,llig ,Jon and the other people who have been ridiculing for years here.That is only the musicians that are out and about.It must be hard for musicians working hard at home.
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I don't think anyone is ridiculing the people that you mention. I suspect many of them are melody players who play a bit of bodhran as a sideline and who, as a result, play in a manner that is sympathetic to the music
The people that are being ridiculed are the far more prevalent dedicated goat-thumpers who just bang away with little regard for the music. They must number in their thousands.
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Okay, once again there's two discussions going on - "I don't like fingerpainting" versus "van Gogh is the best artist who ever lived!".
bt, if I concede that there are bodhran players who are capable of adding something, musically, to a session, will you deign to address the rest of the discussion?
Because I don't think you've really taken up the contention that bodhran is actually a very simple instrument to master, and that as good as it gets still leaves you a lot of time to learn an instrument, so why don't you?
Nor have you addressed the point that (either due to or despite this simplicity) most players here have had a bad time with bodhran players who don't know a hornpipe from a handsaw and never even figure out that they're making asses of themselves.
Nor have you said anything to support the contention that bodhran playing is "music", which is a pretty slow pitch.
In fact, you've really not responded to anything in this thread, you've just repeatedly chimed in with the claim that there are, in your experience, six good bodhran players, one of whom is a brilliant flute player who sometimes plays bodhran and the others we don't know about.
Okay, I'll concede that there are six good bodhran players in the world (your extrapolation to the other counties is not valid statistically), and possibly even more, and that at least one in six of them is a genius on a proper instrument who plays the bodhran sometimes. Now, will you please join the discussion?
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Jon.You dont know these musicians? Just Kevin Crawford.I can list another 20 great bodhran players you dont know.So we have here a forum dedicated to Trad music have contributors who endlessly slag musicians who play the bodhran and they dont know any of them.This is exactly whats wrong with having a serious discussion here.The experts here dont know the music!
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well, this thread is great craic altogether.
Steve Shaw - I do know a few good didge knee-slappers, but I'm afraid it won't get you out of trouble, it would just be light comedy relief. So hang in there.
Again, it appears that, just as with the proposition that there is a cultural difference with communicating one's view of the bodhran (or not), there could very well be a cultural difference in what one hears the bodhran adding to the music or not (provided of course that the player can play it, and play it appropriately).
Apparently, in Ireland, we are told that a well played bodhran is greatly appreciated, whereas across the creek there, they are roundly despised, regardless of how they are played.
Don't you think that suggests some difference in cultural perception? It does to me; very strongly.
Of course the rhythm exists in the unaccompanied tunes. So?
That's well known.
To me, this whole question points up the different approaches to this music - to me it is a lot more than just a technical exercise in cranking out tunes (with rhythm, or often not, because the melody players don't seem to have a sense of it anyway, but they can knock out the notes alright.)
If there is a goodly proportion of listeners in the generally perceived country of origin of this music who actually *like* what an appropriately played bodhran adds to their enjoyment of the music, does that not suggest to you that it might be valid perception, even though you yourself do not like it, or cannot hear it?
I was not born in Ireland and did not have any exposure to this music until quite a mature age, but I very much like what a well played bodhran can do for the music.
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You've managed to turn a fun thread into a serious discussion, but when we cave in and participate all you do is crow about how bloody ignorant we are. And you name-drop like mad. Now where have we seen that before I have to ask myself.
For the record, all I was saying was NOT that I don't know any good bodhran players. I also gave you my opinion of why I don't like 'em in sessions, in case you missed it.. Naturally, you utterly fail to address this. So do you agree or disagree with my assertion that all the dynamism and rhythmic drive in Irish music is already there in the tunes? Careful what you say, because an awful lot of brilliant Irish music, full of drive and excitement, on recordings or in sessions, happens without bodhrans...
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"Steve Shaw - I do know a few good didge knee-slappers, but I'm afraid it won't get you out of trouble, it would just be light comedy relief. So hang in there."
What trouble?
"Apparently, in Ireland, we are told that a well played bodhran is greatly appreciated, whereas across the creek there, they are roundly despised, regardless of how they are played.
Don't you think that suggests some difference in cultural perception? It does to me; very strongly."
Nope. It strongly suggests to me that you're setting up an Aunt Sally. All we have is your penny-in-the-slot assertion that it's universally loved in ireland and universally hated in the UK. You are a very long way from demonstrating that this is the reality. It sounds to me like an assertion conjured up to support your championing of the goat. Where's yer evidence?
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
How in the name of Jaysus can you discuss something so intimate as the trad music world without naming the names of the practitioners?My favourite music to listen to is solo fiddle music and solo concertina music and I dont or would want to hear a bodhran playing along.The only thing I know in life is Irish Traditional music and I have been reading llig and about 5 others denigrading these musicians and now I realise you actually dont know the people you disparage.None of them! Thats not right.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I told you before. I have been to sessions in Ireland enough times over the years now to hear that there is a relative or better absence of disparaging remarks about bodhrans - and- that they are played there quite often.
This site is mainly the place where you hear these sorts of remarks. I think that is simply what your man bt is saying. He is also saying the same thing, that I know that I have observed there, so to me that is reasonably corroborative "evidence" if you will.
Maybe there is "evidence", I don't know, but it does seem to me that broadly, it is the cultural perception of this music that leads to this difference in view.
Is that ok with you?
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"It is however perceived by me that when that put down of an instrument becomes the norm it lowers the standards for a proper discussion forum on the music."
So don't make fun of all the crappy bodhran players in the world, because big_tab knows some good ones.
Are you serious?Who died and made you king? There are so many horrible bodhran abusers in the world tormenting sessions. You're damn right we're going to make fun of them until they stop or can actually keep a beat. If they don't want to get made fun of, they should quit screwing up the music and learn how to play their instruments properly.
If you live in some magical fantasy land where every bodhran player is a genius, you're a lucky man.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Well you love the owld goat and you're sticking up for it so I suppose we'll just have to take your word for it, huh? I'm getting fed of going round in circles. Neither of you is listening. I have three windows to paint and the grass to cut.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Sorry for the testiness, I should have coffee before I post! If you think that was grumpy, imagine if you barged into our local session and started playing horrible bodhran at me!
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
but swfl, surely you've heard plenty of competent tune players who obviously haven't got a rhythmic bone in their body? I have. The music in that context becomes stale, cold and uninteresting, except from a technical point of view.
There is almost no mention on this site for example, of that phenomenon, certainly no "jokes" about it.
But I'm all ears if there are some.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
If they haven't got a rhythmic bone in their body they're not competent tune players, and a bloody army of brilliant bodhran players couldn't help 'em.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
yes, yes, Steve Shaw is saying that the rhythm is already in the tunes so you don't need a bodhran. Ok, right, got that. He's said it before, nothing new. What bt is saying *is* new, for this site anyway.
I suppose there's no real need to have that pane of glass in the windows, either, Steve, on that basis. You don't really need it, the light will get in without it, and it would aid air circulation as well, so why clutter it up with things that aren't necessary?
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Scenario. At your session an alpha fiddler strikes up a nice hornpipe that no-one else knows. No-one else joins in bar a bodhran player who has never been seen before in your session. He plays badly, destroying the set completely. Does your love extend to this bodhran player?
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Actually thanks to you Steve for sticking with the discussion.Your challenge of my thoughts and opinions has helped me formulate how I feel for myself.Dont know if that makes actual sense but I appreciate greatly the chance to chat about this.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Jon .Thats plain silly.People who interfere with the music on any instument are a pain.Lets change the scenario.The tune starts up and the bodhran player you dont know happens to be a lovely player of which there are so many in spite of your experience.The solo musician hears the beat and immediately realises the rhythm is taken care of and proceeds to concentrate on expression and soars.The pub feels it and feet start tapping and people smile.Thats music.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
*that's* the shtyle. Brilliant craic like that.
There's a critical musical mass reached or something like that, and everyone is in it, not just musicians sittin' there and a whole lot of onlookers standin' there like statues, and clapping politely at the end of each set. Yek!
See, maybe it's cultural after all.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I dont know Florida swfl.Just know that James Kelly lives there.I do know Boston and New York and Chicago and there are fine bodhran players there so its not just an Irish thing.I honestly havnt heard a bodhran player demean a session in years.Pipers! Now thats a whole new thread!
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Personally, I think there is a time and place for a well-played bodhran in some sessions. I have heard sessions that I would point to as an example... Er, but that kind of pointing doesn't work on the internet... Nor does it work months or years after the session concerned... So, let's forget the pointing bit.
It has to be admitted that having a session fecked up by a bodhran (with attached arsehole) is possibly a more common outcome.
I take big_tab's point that it is probably a poor player that is the ruining factor more than the drum, and that there are some superb musicians who beat the goat.
The fact remains that there are people who don't care how well the drum is played: they think it an inherently unsuitable instrument for inclusion in a traditional session. That's fine, and surely the regulars in a session can be allowed to decide what they do and don't want at their table. Only a twit would start hammering away where he wasn't welcome.
It's probably true that bodhran is an easier instrument to play than most of the others used in ITM. After all, it's all about the rhythm - there are no "real" melodic or harmonic considerations. You hit it, you don't get tunes out of it. Ah, now there's *my* prejudice showing. I can't stand bodhrans when the drummer shows aspirations to try to get a tune out of it. It's a drum, for heaven's sake. I don't like the intrusive, flashy, "top-end" stuff. It's Kerry and Limerick or nowt. Subtle, supportive, playing not solo/feature playing.
All that said, I personally feel that the drum itself is as valid as any other instrument. It may be a Johnny-come-lately to ITM, but then so are guitar, bouzouki, harmonica, banjo and mandolin. It isn't a melody instrument, as the pure trad ones are, but then neither are guitar or 'zouk.
I can't argue with Steve that the rhythm and drive are already there in the music. That is so true. But that point just illustrates the fact that the drum is unnecessary, not that it is invalid. Take the drum out the equation and you'll still get percussion at a fired-up session. The musicians will tap their feet, someone may break out some bones, pub punters may tap or clap along.
The drum may not be what you want at your session, but it is not, in itself, a sh*te instrument, and when played properly and appropriately it is often welcome, and not at all a weapon of enjoyment destruction.
The rhythm is present in the music without the drum, but the drum (in a session or jam or whatever) that has no standing objection to it it can *contribute* to the rhythmic aspect.
I suppose someone (me) could argue (without much confidence) that the melodic dimension is fully there in the music as soon as one piper, fluter or fiddler plays. The other melody players are unnecessary, and a bad one could ruin the session.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Yep, you're on shaky ground (I'm waiting for the primer to dry). You can argue about the dispensiblity of this, that or the other melody instrument, and I'm all for agreeing that some are more central to the tunes than others. But you do need one or more melody instruments. Irreducible. This music is melody. A drum on its own cannot make sensible Irish music but Irish music can get on perfectly well, better even, without a drum. Even technically-proficient drumming can grate. I love Altan and have all their CDs but the latter ones especially are blighted by a bloke on a bodhran. I hardly ever play 'em for that reason. Every time a cracking good set of reels gets going here he bloody comes again. I've seen 'em live twice, both times with no bodhran. Sublime. I wasn't looking round for something that seemed to be missing, I can tell you. Only an opinion.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"The solo musician hears the beat and immediately realises the rhythm is taken care of and proceeds to concentrate on expression and soars"
Is this supposed to make sense? The fiddler "proceeds to concentrate on expression" because "the rhythm is taken care of"? I just can't find a way that this is a sensible thing to say. You can't play trad music without playing the rhythm. If you play without the rhythm, you aren't playing trad. If the rhythm isn't in the tune, you're not playing the tune.
This reminds me a little of an assertion, long ago, that "the guitar holds the session together", which was also completely mystifying to me.
In any case, the drummer playing his "hornpipe rhythm" that he plays on every hornpipe and completely scrapping the tune is a much more common scenario, in my experience, than any transcendant soaring moment facilitated by the bongo player.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"I wasn't looking round for something that seemed to be missing, I can tell you"
I know you were talking about gigs, not sessions but , damn it, I am forced to admit that I have never been to a good session, where no drum was present, and thought "What this session needs is a bodhran".
Drat.
I still hold that the drum may unnecessary but it is not intrinsically ruinous, even in a session. I may not be able to back up my claim with any evidence whatsoever, but it remains a proven fact: therefore, I win.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
A traditional musician who plays better with a percussionist needs to seriously reassess their capabilities. If a melody player can't play on their own with good rhythm then they just can't play yet.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Spot on buddhuu. A drum does't necessarily ruin a session. But I would say anyone who doesn't think the bodhran is by far the most common session wrecking instrument can't go to many sessions. Or maybe they just have a bad ear and don't hear what goes on.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Absolute nonsense bogman!There are many great musicians who completely relax when they are accompanied well and play way better.If they didnt they wouldnt use an accomaniest.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
A melody player with poor rhythm will sound better with a drum even though they're not playing any better. It's an illusion that they're playing better, okay perhaps for listeners but ruinous for the player who is being deluded into thinking they're playing well. I know this because when I started out I was that melody player. It took years of working with recordings of myself to get it better. You can't tackle a problem you don't know you've got.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"In any case, the drummer playing his "hornpipe rhythm" that he plays on every hornpipe and completely scrapping the tune is a much more common scenario, in my experience, than any transcendant soaring moment facilitated by the bongo player."
Jon, I would wager most of us have that same experience, the drummer playing the type of tune and not the tune itself. [insert stock rhythm here] When a drummer does have the skill and ability to play along with the tune and not just the type of tune, it's a great thing.
Well, except for those blessed and charmed folks who have never seen a bad bodhran player, and can't understand what all the fuss is about.
big_tab and enlyke, we understand that your experiences are the only valid ones and that all of ours are invalid, therefore you and right and we are wrong. Thanks so much for the scintillating and stimulating debate.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
A melody player with good rhythm can sound much better when accompanied by a drummer - if they're Joshua Redman playing a sax solo accompanied by Brian Blade, for example.
But in trad music, no.
The bodhran player sounds much better when playing with a good melody player than when playing solo, that much is true. But that might just be because you have something to listen to besides the bodhran.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"But in trad music, no." (Jon K). Isn't a misunderstanding about that part of the problem ?
Someone reading the following could get the wrong idea about what a bodhran is for:
" Get a good guitarist and a good bodhran player, and another good flute player, or melody player who will allow you to do that. That's basically it. If you're playing with musicians who you trust, whether that's on stage or in a session, who you know will be there following every breath, and if you fall over yourself then they're there to pick it up and nothing's disappeared - the structure hasn't fallen apart. In [band name] I'm very lucky because I have the most extraordinary bodhran player in the world and he's just as solid as a rock. You know that no matter what happens, no matter how big a mistake you make...."
Bodhran player referred to says in an interview "what I do with ... is not trad"
(I'll give the source later, but its easy enough to guess)
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Steve..This is where my problem lies.John Joe Kelly is a bodhran player who three years ago I would have said was not to my taste.Flook and nearly all bands are not what I am looking for.Since then John Joe has spent a lot of tjme where I live and after hearing him in many sessions and gigs,(one memorabke trad fest gig with Eamonn Coyne ,Tim Edey and Eoin O' Neill) I have been totally won over by his music and his attitude to music which is trenendously positive.My problem with you and the other demeaners is the total negativity towards any musician who plays the bodhran.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I'd be careful about judging anyone's playing by how they perform on stage or in a recording studio. "Name" players usually know the difference between putting on a show and blending into a session, and their music adapts accordingly.
That said, part of the rub of the skin thumping trade is that bad thumpers can't play to the tune, and too many good thumpers tend to overplay, as though the bodhran is a marquee instrument. Overplaying (doing the cascading tones, say, or whomping away with heavy syncopation) may be fine for gigs, or as a one-off during a session, but I've heard capable-but-indiscrete drummers overplay all night long, ruining an otherwise pleasant evening of tunes. It's as though they're trying to compensate for not being able to play the melodies. Or they're bored just playing the rhythm.
What I hear in these endless bodhran-bashing threads is the notion that, in this music, a purely rhythm instrument simply isn't needed. In the right hands, any melody instrument can (and should) create the necessary pulse. You can't turn this argument around and make it work--a session without melody instruments isn't the music. Melody instruments *are* needed to play this music.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
david, that may be trad, but the bounding drum is overkill to my ears. It's too tight, for one thing, so the constant high boom competes with the flute. And the flute has plenty of pulse and punch, eh?
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I never thought my musical tastes would change so much that I would be advocating John Joe Kelly as a great musician but he is. When the music is gentle his understanding of the tune is perfect. He is also ten years older than he was ten years ago.That last sentence is a fact!
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Hi big_tab
You are p*ssing against the wind here, you will never convince the bodhran despisers here.
Now as one who has heard about every possible disparaging remark about bodhrans and their players, the only effect that that has ever had on me has been to encourage me to practice even harder on my instrument of choice. This thread has given me lots of laughs and about 8 hours extra practice time over the last few days - all to the good with the All Ireland coming up next month.
So Steve, llig et alia, keep up the good work, I need the practice LOL.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
That's the thing, no matter about tastes but he is an excellent traditional musician with enormous experience, and he can play a pretty mean tune too. I don't think there are too many who don't respect musicians of his calibre.
The problem with bodhran, as has been discussed over and over, is that it's a magnet for musical freeloaders and for people who care about the music these belters coming in and having a negative effect on the tunes can be hard to stomach, and often the longer you've being playing trad the more sick of it you get. Not really the bodhran itself but the freeloaders who want to be part of it without bothering to learn the actual music.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Hi Bigdavy.I dont spend my time thinking about bodhrans thinking mostly about the fiddle but generally thinking about the music but I have been kurking here for years and getting frustrated that noone takes them up on their dismissal of so many hundred great musicians in the tradition.What we have learned is that no good bodhran player goes near Steve ,Jon and swfl. Here is a statement that can be easily disproved by the hundreds of music people that pass through Co Clare every year.....From Feakle,through Tulla to Ennis on up through Corofin and Miltown and Kilfenora to Doolin there is no bodhran player who regularily plays in the sessions who is thought of negatively.. Big statement ..easily disproved.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
'From Feakle,through Tulla to Ennis on up through Corofin and Miltown and Kilfenora to Doolin there is no bodhran player who regularily plays in the sessions who is thought of negatively.. Big statement ..easily disproved.'
Indeed it is, but do you regularly visit these sessions yourself? If so, you must crack up a hell of a lot of miles during the week. I'm slightly puzzled why a musician of your obvious calibre isn't currently up in Miltown.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Mac Cruiskeen hundreds of music lovers know whose playing in all the session s in Clare.I have been attending sessions for years but you would access this information in weeks if you were interested around here.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
If you want to learn how to take a lighthearted thread, and suck the life out of it, this thread is a master's course. The key seems to be to have someone (usually who can't spell or express themselves very well with the written word) just keep pounding on the same point over and over and over, seemingly in the vain hope that eventually, everyone will agree with them. Pure tedium...
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Al I apologize to you for my poor use of English but I didnt realize you had to pass some exam in order to discuss music. Maybe I have gone on too long and repeated the same point. I have all right.Will try to stop now.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
It's not that you have to pass an exam. It's that writing is thinking made visible. And if someone's writing is sloppy and ill formed, chances are so is their thinking.
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Point taken about the Tom Morrison Will, and maybe it was a line-up put together by the record company. But it's a snapshot of the past that rings warning bells in my mind when reading some of what is said here.
I am inclined to the 'not neccessary and mostly not harmless' view on bodhrans in sessions (including my own!) but I am curious about big_tab's snapshot of the present however imperfectly it may be described. Brian Finnegan does mention sessions in that quote, even though the context was something done on stage.
A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I may have a little too much time on my hands but this thought struck me, that I felt compelled to share with you.
When either making or reskining a bodhran that age old problem of where to put your tipper when reaching for your pint would be instantly be resolved if, when the goat or kangaroo skin is being stretched that the arse hole be centred in the middle.
Now you know where to put it.
PS It doesn't work with all skins... elephant in particular
# Posted on July 4th 2010 by weebag
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I'm certainly not going to ask you to post a letter for me
# Posted on July 4th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Ha.
Centered in the middle. eh?
Still funny though.
# Posted on July 4th 2010 by gam
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
That would mean that every bodhran in the pub would arrive with two arse holes then.
# Posted on July 4th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Steve, I nearly spit my beer all over my keyboard after reading that...
# Posted on July 4th 2010 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
There seems to be a bit of an anal fixation going on here.
What have you really been doing with your free time weebag? :-b
# Posted on July 4th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
# Posted on July 4th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
There we go. The silly face needs a P not a b.
# Posted on July 4th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
No arse hole stretchers amongst the bodhran makers, try the melody people.
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by mcknowall
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Interesting the juxtaposition of "bodhran makers" and "melody people". Or is it "bodhran people" and "melody makers"? Ha ha
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by ...
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Carry an instrument like that, and you are asking to be the butt of a lot of jokes...
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
If you carried a drum like that, just think of all the possibilities for conversation starters:
"Wanna see my 'special' drum? It's got a special place for me to put my tipper!"
I can just see it now: a drummer chatting up a pretty girl at the bar: "And this is where you put the tipper!"
The possibilities are endless! LOL
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by fiddlerdan
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Its interesting to check out the silly humourless smug contributors here who think they are hilarious with their amazing witticisms on bodhrans and bodhran players. I would be much happier to see Donnacha Gough,Ringo Mc Donagh,Ger Hoyne ,Seamus O'Kane and scores more musicians on that instrument coming into a session than these gobdaw contributors.
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
If I had a bodhran like that, I could fart and blame it on the bodhran!
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
It's a joke, big_tab. I bet all those people you mention would laugh.
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by gam
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
So would most of the sound come from the back of the drum or from the hole? I think that's a close one to call.
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by bogman
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Oh, and hi little_chup.....
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by bogman
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
If the maker could just leave a few inches of rectum and colon attached they could double as a handy tool for damping the sound and as a useful storage pouch for tippers.
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Big-Tab... Gam's right, those guys would laugh loudly as I have an idea that the sound quality would be a tad brutal. Still, the novelty factor would be a big talking point.
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by weebag
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
What about the "rim" shot?
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by ...
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"If the maker could just leave a few inches of rectum and colon attached"
Steve: Thanks a LOT for THAT visual - I couldn't breathe for a good minute, laughing.
Wow.
Simply horriffic.
Big Tab: Sorry to offer you yet more attention in this rather fun thread, but why not learn the first lesson from all the good bodhran makers:
It's not good to have TOO thin of a skin.
If you look into the past, there HAVE been, oh, one or two serious informative discussions about the Irish Beer Tray over the years.
I agree with Steve, lighten up please.
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by Piece
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Camel foreskins, now there's a thought. And with an eye for a tipper, sorry gotta go now. chortle snicker giggle.
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by mcknowall
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I found the loodraman
http://www.adrants.com/images/toilet_man.jpg
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Now that is a beautifully surreal post Eòsaph. Thanks
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by ...
this explains alot
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
& this explains the rest;
http://sex.manageyourlovelife.com/anal_pleasure.php
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
'the bodhran people' - Getting some bad zombie movie imagery over here.
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
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Thats exactly the perfect Loodraman Eosaph!
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by big_tab
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@ Mix O'Lydian - surely you mean 'Bodhrántrottel'?
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by biggus dave
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
It occours to me that an alternative use for a 'skin' of this type might be for old style banjo. As violins have 'f' holes could the banjo benefit from the added sonority provided by the natural design and qualities inherent?
Of course extreme care would have to be exercised in the positioning of the orifice so the bridge don't fall down the 'ole.
# Posted on July 5th 2010 by john knoss
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Well this topic seems to have cheered up what was promising to be a boring day...
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by weebag
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Despite being a classy lady, my wife is a bodhran player (who is learning to play whistle) and I couldn't resist reading this thread to her. We both laughed and chuckled all the way through. It's good to know that mustardia still has the craic!
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Anyway it shows that humour is a strange thing and possibly varies from country to country. Delighted though that you all enjoyed this thread so much.It'll keep you off the streets and safe from the real world.
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
No, I reckon that toilet humour transcends all national boundaries. Likewise poking fun at the sanctimonious types.
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by johndsamuels
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This is toilet humour? Ye must have spotless toilets!
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I do actually
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by ...
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Dont know how to do smilies!
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"Well this topic seems to have cheered up what was promising to be a boring day..."
Really?
Actually, I did nearly p*ss myself laughing when I read that bit of self-congratulation.
But the rest of it's the same tired, fatuous, load of smug, anti-drum toss you find in the more moronic corners of any ITM site... Yawn, yawn, yawn.
Kiss the middle of my goat skin.
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by buddhuu
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I salute you buddhuu! Its good to defend good music.Its like Seamus Ennis gave the bodhran a downer with one original witty put down 45 years ago and these boyos are getting in on the dangerous art of bodhran put downs.Thrill seekers indeed.Two amazing bodhran players that are as one with the music and give the fluters and fiddlers the body to express themselves better are Kevin Crawford and Christy Moore.
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Bodhran threads just wouldn't be any good without some sanctimonious drummer (or two) having a nervous breakdown.
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Buddhuu... you really need to get out more. Like you, I play a variety of instruments including the bodhran and am more than happy to admit that from time to time I play at our local bodhran only session www.curiadydrwm.co.uk and will allways defend the use of this ancient instrument in ITM. So just take this thread in the same vein as everyone else here has... it is just light hearted fun.
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by weebag
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Budduu, if you don't like it go and kiss the middle of your own goat skin. The few good players apart, the world is packed with tuneless, clueless, rhythmless, moronic belters thinking it's their right to turn up at sessions and 'join in'. The more slagging they get online the better. If it puts even one of them off then it's worth it.
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by bogman
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
LOL... When did you ever know p*ss-taking to put off a bodran player?
Or a banjo player, for that matter. I play one of those too.
In fact, I deliberately choose my instruments in order to annoy.
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by buddhuu
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
It may be a universal of sociology that humorous informal speech of various forms, including jokes, "funny stories", gossip, and the like - certainly including "slagging" - serve the purpose of establishing and passing on the the expected norms of a society. By making fun of the bodhran player who fails to exhibit certain values - respect for the tune and for the other players - we are actually telling each other what is expected at a session, for all players.
So it's actually not just light-hearted fun. It's also a critical part of maintaining the tradition. Slag a bodhran player for decency!
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
It is lighthearted fun on this thread agreed but there is a perception that it is fun to slag bodhrans on this forum which is unpleasant and nothing to do with humour . I havnt heard a bad bodhran player in ages but I have heard scores of out of tune flute players and that is the most annoying thing in a session without exception.Anybody gonna start a thread slagging flute players?
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
big_tab, if you really want to know why the bodhran is such a popular target, think about the investment of effort involved in playing the flute versus the bodhran. A fast learner might be up and running with their first tunes on the flute in, what, a year? Playing seriously in a few years? Probably not much faster than that from a standing start, and likely it'd take a bit longer for most.
The bodhran, you can learn everything you need to know in an afternoon, and after a week or so you'll have it down, and at the end of it you never have a single tune.
So when a flute player doesn't come up to par, it's because they're actually trying to do something that's difficult. When a bodhran player gives you a foot bath* it's because he can't be bothered to learn the simplest thing known to man. And that's why people slag the bodhran and not so much the flute.
But if you feel there's a need for a flute-slagging thread, I'm sure nobody will stop you.
* see http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/6352/comments#comment135509
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Jon Kiparsky
This will probably get me slagged silly on this board, but I for my sins teach the bodhran.
In teaching the bodhran I usually go through the following stages;-
Ergonomics of holding and playing the drum.
Basic rhythms
Skin control
Initial playing to a tune - to do this I get them to hum/lilt/sing the tune and accompany themselves on the drum
Tune analysis - parts and phrases and how to fit rhythms to them.
Working with an instrumentalist, including listening to what is being played and working with the variations the tune player is putting into the tune.
Iyou think that can be done in a week or so, then can I beg to differ.
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by BigDavy
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
No, Jon's right. I have never played bodhrán because I've always said I can't play it. I was taught how to once, by someone, who should know better, but who thinks they're a great bodhrán player. It took an hour. In that time, I could hear that I was about twice as good as he was. It sounded complete crap. Still, loads better than the majority of people who thump the wretched things.
Now, there are *some* who can actually play the thing. I can think of three.
# Posted on July 6th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
And now that we can't tell jokes related to sex, religion, national origin, mood, hair color, etc, due to political correctness, the bodhran players are about the only target that is still fair game!
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Nothing to do with humour, big_tab? You gotta be joking! (we are). Big_tab, po_face..?
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
And I must seriously take issue with ethical blend. There are far more than three people who can actually play the thing. It's just that only three of 'em ever do!
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Davy - I'm impressed by your abilities as a businessman. Not many people can stretch out a bodhran lesson that far.
So how long does it take with your method to be session-competent? I tend to figure someone's ready for a session when they can tell a reel and a jig and play something suitable, and they can tell when it's not a jig or a reel, and shut up without being told.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
They're ready for a session when they know every tune they play on as well as the melody players do, but by that point they realise that the drum adds nothing in any case so they don't play it. Bodhrans are for bands by mutual agreement, not for sessions. It's the bodhran owners getting this confused who cause all the bother.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I have to disagree with you there, Steve. There are people who play nothing but bodhran and a) play it in a way that doesn't screw things up for the rest of the musicians and b) add plenty by way of craic, and thereby justify their place at the table.
I don't think I know of a whole lot of people who add much, musically speaking, to a session simply by playing the bodhran, but a session isn't just about the music - if it were, it would be - um, well, let's just say it isn't just about the music.
The trouble comes when a bodhran player either doesn't understand the music well enough to fulfill condition a, or fears that they have to add more to the music than their instrument is constitutionally disposed to provide. Either case is a session-buster, in my view.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Steve . You have managed to disparage and dismiss some of my favorite musicians with your simplistic comments. I was watching a session recently and it was going along beautifully.Fine musicians in a nice understanding of the tunes.one would think it doesnt get any better.Then Donnacha Gough joined and the whole room got the energy and the groove.Feet were tapping everywhere and there was smiles all round.We all knew that we were lucky to be there.The bodhran player did this ,The musicians responded to his energy and rhythm . I know loads of bodhran players and bouzouki players that can do this.However if I want to listen to ,say,James Kelly playing the fiddle I dont want to hear or see a bodhran because it cant improve the music.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
You're just picking on Steve? I haven't managed to disparage and dismiss enough goatbangers for you? Hmph. I must be getting subtle in my old age....
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
How long does it take to learn to strum a guitar ? Just strumming, and just the right hand part of it.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by David50
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
True, a session isn't just about music, Jon. Similarly, taking your loved one to a romantic candle-lit restaurant for a meal isn't just about the food, but one pubic hair in your bolognaise will still wreck the whole evening, n'est-ce pas?
Maybe Kernow just doesn't attract decent bodhranistas and I consequently have developed a jaundiced view, but I've yet to meet one who has contributed anything other than grimaces. Bodhrans in bands, great (sometimes). In sessions? Not in mine, thanks.
As for my dismissing "someone or other's" favourite musicians with my disparaging comments, well I've searched the thread and whaddya know? I haven't named a single name! And, again, this is not supposed to be a serious thread as I recall, or at least it wasn't. Post a thread about your favourite bodhran players and I absolutely promise to keep out.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I just realised that the thread title includes repairers as well as makers. If the arse hole idea catches on, will repairers have to deal with anal fissures then?
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Hi Jon
I am a rotten businessman, I teach bodhran through Comhaltas, so I get paid nothing.
As to being session ready - if they already play a melody instrument, then say 2-3 months to become session competent by my standards and a year at least to become competition competent.
Rhythm players - i.e. bouzouki, guitar, etc or a ceili band drummer would take 2 months as they already have some idea of rhythmic accompaniment.
A complete beginner, with no prior background, would take longer.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by BigDavy
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Steve - isn't that why they use the candles for lighting, so you won't see the pubic hair?
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Davy - okay, so 2-3 months, maybe 4-5 for a total novice? Okay, let's go with that then. Now, what's your best guess on how long it takes a flute player to get to the point where they can drop in on a session and play even a few tunes at a similar level of confidence? I'd guess a year at the inside, starting from scratch, most people seem to take somewhat longer than that. To be "session ready" - to have enough tunes to sit down at the table and not spend the whole night waiting for one of the tunes that you know - would probably add a few years for repertoire development.
So do we agree that you could learn the bodhran at least twice in the time it takes to get fairly started on the flute? Does anyone still wonder why the bodhran is considered an easy instrument?
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Oh, and Davy, you really ought to start charging for your services. You might find that your students learn faster when it's coming out of their pocket and not yours.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Jon
Given how hard it is for me to get an embouchure on a flute, I would agree that flute is not an easy instrument to learn. In fact for me uilleann pipes is an easier instrument than flute (and that is saying something).
As the bodhran being considered an easy instrument, then I agree that is the perception, given the number of ignorant bashers there are going around. But becoming good (by my standards, which are likely much higher than yours) on the instrument takes years of work and practice. Steve or llig will probably say I should have put that work into a melody instrument instead, but I get an atavistic pleasure out of percussion instruments, that only uileann pipes, of the melody instruments in ITM, gives me and I am slowly learning to play them.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by BigDavy
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
You should have put that work into a melody instrument instead. Atavism is for crap hippies
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by ...
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
You should have a head start with the pipes as you already know all the tunes from playing the bodhran. Don't you?
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Ha, very good Steve. A neat catch 22
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by ...
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
" Ha,Very good Steve. A neat catch 22" Another great days posting for the two boys.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I won't go into who's got higher standards for bodhran playing, since that's a fairly futile ground for contention, but we're agreed that any chucklehead can pick up the sideways bongo in January and sit down at a session and play by July. It's possible that, if they have a good teacher like you or me, and they work at it a little, they'll even be able to play well enough, and be good enough at not playing, that only the hard-core bodhran haters will annoyed.
Granted, there'll still be something to learn, but any melody instrument you can name takes two to six times as long (depending on the player and the instrument) to get to the point of sitting down and playing with others. That melody player will still have years to go before they're really good, mind you, this is just to be able to really start learning.
So yeah, the bodhran is a pretty easy instrument by your standards and by mine. That's the perception and that's the fact. So if you have an instrument that you can learn in months and max out in a year or two, and that's all you care to learn, it's hard for people who dedicate years to learning the ins and outs of a serious instrument to take you seriously. (the "you" here is the impersonal, evidently you, Davy, also play instruments).
Basically, the bodhran is a toy, it's a party trick. It's fun, it can be fine to have one around, but the more its partisans insist on some degree of credibility, the less seriously the rest of us take it. Basically, if you're a bodhran banger and only that, you've dedicated your life to mastering the six-inch high jump. You'll probably still be welcome at the sessions if you've got some good craic, but don't expect any respect as a musician.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
And basically, I need to not try to post and do work at the same time, because basically, my editing suffers when I do.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
And basically so do your posts, evidently
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Has there ever been a musical tradition or style on this planet that DOESN'T make fun of the drummer? Time for some wider perspective, perhaps. Such is your lot, drummers. It is what it is. [shrug]
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I dont know about that Jon..Actually forget the niceties.Thats rubbish.The bodhran players that play where I live ,John Maloney,James Duddy,Dermot Sheedy,Ger Hoyne,Tommy hayes,Liam Hickey,Geraldine Mc Gowan,Sean mc Grath,Kevin Crawford ,are all respected as musicians who are dedicated to the music.These session.org anti bodhran threads do not represent ,in my opinion,the thoughts of the music community in Ireland who stopped tolerating gobsh*tes on any instrument ruining the sessions years ago.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I agree with that,bt. I don't hear this stuff in Ireland, but plenty on this site.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
How many of those people that you name only play the bodhran and not also a melody instrument?
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Are we saying that bodhrans are always welcomed without fail wherever you go in Ireland? And even in the extremely unlikely event of that being the case, are we saying that this somehow legitimises the thing? What line of thinking am I picking up here...??
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Again that question is irrelevant,with respect to you john,because all that matters is that these musicians add hugely to our joy and good times with their BODHRAN playing.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
what you are hearing is that you don't hear this line of talk in Ireland.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
S rry Steve,Didnt see your post.I am saying that MUSICIANS are welcomed without discrimination(as there is here) in the music pubs of Ireland.Anyone who can get the feet tapping and maybe play for a set.There is no ill feeling towards any musicians.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
It's not irrelevant. You said that Jon K's post was rubbish. His main point was that if you play the bodhran and nothing but the bodhran then you can't expect much respect as a musician. You've offered up no arguments against that particular viewpoint.
So in Ireland would you say that a bodhran player of middling ability enjoys the same standing as a musican as a flute player of middling ability?
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I dont think its the instrument that decides that john. If someone is interfering with the music on any instrument they dont command respect.I think a good bodhran player gets as much respect as any other instrumentalist.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
No, it's the way that Ireland is somehow being set up as the final arbiter here. The last resort, etc. My experience of Ireland is very limited, but at the Dublin sessions I did go to (and joined in I hasten to add) I didn't see a bodhran at all and my instinct told me that the sudden appearance of same would not have been welcomed. This is a discussion forum in which words are all we have. In the real world things can be unspoken but still well-understood.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"I think a good bodhran player gets as much respect as any other instrumentalist"
Wasn't it yesterday that you were slagging off my "little mouth organ?"
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
No Steve.I really would hate to set up Ireland as the final arbiter.I dislike that notion.The music is everywhere,for everybody and its wonderful.All I can speak from is my own experience here in Co Clare where musicians from all over the world join us and live among us and I dont hear one word spoken against the bodhran and I dont see any more poor bodhran players than any other instrument.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Steve ,I was describing it.Wiuld never slag it!
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
exactly. My experience is mainly of Clare and I have not heard disparaging remarks.
It is nothing about being an arbiter; I think it is more a cultural difference in communication frankly.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Where is Mr. bodhran bliss when you need him? Now there was a drummer who knew what humor was.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I think it's more do do with the fact that on a discussion forum you can't easily slyly hint, wink, roll your eyes, give knowing looks, V-signs behind the back, communicate with body language, etc. All we have is typed words. There's a hell of a lot of stuff we talk about here that doesn't necessarily get aired much down the pub in the real world. Not in so many words. This is an illegitimate line of argument, innit. No-one in Ireland is heard slagging off bodhrans, it's alleged. First, I really don't have to believe that, and second, we musical types tend to be too good-mannered to slag bodhrans off in front of the owner's face (more's the pity), and, what's more, if no bodhran shows up at all we're hardly likely to sit there yapping about 'em all night, are we?
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Oi...!!! Who's hijacked me thread then...??? I wasn't bodhran bashing... I was just offering some thought's as to what to do with the tipper...
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by weebag
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
swfl .Lets take the humour out of it.I have acknowledged that this started as a humourous thread and it was me that got stuck in and slagged off the humour.It is however perceived by me that when that put down of an instrument becomes the norm it lowers the standards for a proper discussion forum on the music.My point is maybe that because a few people here find it hilarious to put down bodhran players doesnt mean that those who find it infantile cant state that.It is interesting too that some contributors who Have hugely interesting views on aspects of the music have so little respect for musicians like the ones I have mentioned above.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
It was me weebag. Really didnt mean to hijack it just to expand on it and have the chat.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Why not just leave the humorous thread to be humorous and start a parallel po_faced bodhran thread? We'll all be so busy being exceedingly humorous and rejoicing in our epic wit over here whilst you plough your serious, bodhran-celebrating lonely furrow over there that we won't even notice and we certainly won't be hijacking you. I've decided that I've been far too guilty of serious behaviour in this thread and from now on it's back to being an infantile t0sser of the first order...
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Good stuff Steve you go back to being a tosser.Its far more interesting than having a serious discussion on the place of the bodhran today in the music..
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
The place of the bodhran in the music? Preferably, out of the way of it.
Okay, now on to the infantile tossery...
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
And so the same five or six contributors carry on and nothing changes on the session.org. I havnt being defending bodhrans with my efforts here.I have been defending musicians. Jon ,some day you might be lucky enough to be joined in music by some of the musicians I have named above and hopefully your estimation of their music will change and the ignorance of your comment above will become clear to you.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
bt, that comment should be read very literally. Try again, and you'll find that you don't actually object to it.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"The place of the bodhran in the music?Preferably,out of the way of it." Maybe there is a different, hidden meaning somewhere Jon but I object to any musician being told they arent wanted.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Oi, I called myself an infantile t0sser. That was self-deprecation. I did not give you permission to call me it, thanks. Especially you.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
My apologies Steve.I was quoting yourself.Lads all I want to talk about is the nusic.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Not codhrans?
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Any instrument that's in the way of the music is in the wrong place, no? How is the bodhran any different?
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"nothing changes on the session.org"
How long have you been here?
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by ...
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Good question. If I'd been here for about six weeks I'd hardly expect a bloody revolution to have happened.
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
anyway, the sessions are great craic in Ireland, the ones I've been to anyway, mostly in Clare, the people are great, and I don't have to tell or listen to bodhran jokes. There are some great players there anyway, so why?
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Same in Kernow. It's what I'm trying to tell you. We tell mostly banjo jokes here. I've heard that orchestral musicians are always having a go at the viola players. Harmonica players? Open season. So what? Bodhran owners ought to have thicker skins.
Hey, I just said "bodhran players ought to have thicker skins..."
# Posted on July 7th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
OK, owners.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"And so the same five or six contributors carry on and nothing changes on the session.org."
They're now called alpha posters.
tradpiper, Fiddlerwill, Jig, lonnanas, nine, hardtopindown, Satan,.....
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
We started with musical comedy, now we seem to be trudging through some dreary opera piece where everyone is moaning and suffering...how dare anyone joke around, when music is such a serious business...
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Well I feel like a proper bodhran player now - Steve and llig have slagged me - thanks lads keep it up I can take it.
Steve - my skin is like a rhino's, and my stomach like a hippo's. No problems with a thin skin here :P
Llig, you gave me a good laugh re the hippy comment, maybe I should play my bodhran with flowers in my hair (I can imagine the adjudicator's face in Cavan LOL).
Codhrans Steve? is that where you leave another part of the goat in the middle of the skin, to match the player.
If you know any new bodhran jokes please tell me them, I like them as much as any melody player. My favourite one would likely get me banned from the site.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by BigDavy
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
oh, ok, the funnies.
Kernow! Kernow?? Who the feck would want to go to Kernow for a session. I mean *realleee". ROFL.
Ker-thefeck-now?
There you go, was that funny?
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
sorry, sorry, I'm only jokin'
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
To Llig who asks how long I am here.Many people like myself have been reading session .org without joining up.I have been reading your very interesting thought s on music for about 5 years.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
ye gotta watch those ar biters as well, ye know, here on the ol' session.org.
They can come back and bite ye when ye not lookin'.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"oh, ok, the funnies.
Kernow! Kernow?? Who the feck would want to go to Kernow for a session. I mean *realleee". ROFL.
Ker-thefeck-now?
There you go, was that funny?"
Hilarious. Why, I shall certainly need a new corset now. It also confirms what we all know, of course. That Irish music should only be played by Irish people in Ireland. Well done.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"Kernow! Kernow?? Who the feck would want to go to Kernow for a session. I mean *realleee". ROFL.
Ker-thefeck-now?"
Steve prolly won't care. IIRC, he's not Cornish.
On the other hand, my wife says she's gonna kick your arse.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by buddhuu
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
David, I did not direct any comments to you personally. I'm sure you're a super bodhran player. My codhran is to bodhran as tabby's nusic is to music. But that moment has passed. I suppose it could mean a bodhran made out of fish skin. You could even use it then to practise your scales (geddit?). That would meet with at least one person's approval I should think. As for more bodhran jokes, frankly I've haddock up to here with 'em.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
As this is a thread dedicated to humour, have you got any good didgeridoo jokes, enlyke?
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Steve ,instead of focusing on the fact that I spelt music with an n by mistake could you perhaps explain to me exactly why you dont think the bodhran players I have listed above would not be welcome to your session and would have nothing to add to the music.I extend this question to Llig also and Jon K.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I didn't really focus on it much, did I? I don't know those bodhran players you mention except from records on which they play in bands. I don't care for bodhrans in sessions because most people who have one can't play it very well, so the chances are, if you see one coming, you're going to have a wrecked evening. The other reason I don't like 'em is because they provide an unnecessary bolt-on to Irish music in my opinion (I stress). All the dynamism and rhythmic drive is already there in the tunes in my opinion (I stress) and a thumping noise on top (or underneath) at best adds nothing and at worst ruins the feel of the tunes. And most people who play 'em think they don't need to know the tunes. It's a reel and that's good enough for 'em. The result is usually insensitive and inappropriate accompaniment which is very annoying for those who have taken the trouble to learn the tunes. There, my polite opinion (I stress) on a matter which has been aired a thousand times before. Yawn.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Thank you Steve.Can you not see that all you are telling us is that you dony know any good bodhran players?
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I have listed 5 or 6 bodhran players who play regularily in Co Clare and who are loved and respected for the pleasure they give us with their music.Multiply that by 32 other counties and you have approx 180 good musicians.Maybe double that internationally and you have 360 fine musicians who you ,llig ,Jon and the other people who have been ridiculing for years here.That is only the musicians that are out and about.It must be hard for musicians working hard at home.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I don't think anyone is ridiculing the people that you mention. I suspect many of them are melody players who play a bit of bodhran as a sideline and who, as a result, play in a manner that is sympathetic to the music
The people that are being ridiculed are the far more prevalent dedicated goat-thumpers who just bang away with little regard for the music. They must number in their thousands.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Okay, once again there's two discussions going on - "I don't like fingerpainting" versus "van Gogh is the best artist who ever lived!".
bt, if I concede that there are bodhran players who are capable of adding something, musically, to a session, will you deign to address the rest of the discussion?
Because I don't think you've really taken up the contention that bodhran is actually a very simple instrument to master, and that as good as it gets still leaves you a lot of time to learn an instrument, so why don't you?
Nor have you addressed the point that (either due to or despite this simplicity) most players here have had a bad time with bodhran players who don't know a hornpipe from a handsaw and never even figure out that they're making asses of themselves.
Nor have you said anything to support the contention that bodhran playing is "music", which is a pretty slow pitch.
In fact, you've really not responded to anything in this thread, you've just repeatedly chimed in with the claim that there are, in your experience, six good bodhran players, one of whom is a brilliant flute player who sometimes plays bodhran and the others we don't know about.
Okay, I'll concede that there are six good bodhran players in the world (your extrapolation to the other counties is not valid statistically), and possibly even more, and that at least one in six of them is a genius on a proper instrument who plays the bodhran sometimes. Now, will you please join the discussion?
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Jon.You dont know these musicians? Just Kevin Crawford.I can list another 20 great bodhran players you dont know.So we have here a forum dedicated to Trad music have contributors who endlessly slag musicians who play the bodhran and they dont know any of them.This is exactly whats wrong with having a serious discussion here.The experts here dont know the music!
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
well, this thread is great craic altogether.
Steve Shaw - I do know a few good didge knee-slappers, but I'm afraid it won't get you out of trouble, it would just be light comedy relief. So hang in there.
Again, it appears that, just as with the proposition that there is a cultural difference with communicating one's view of the bodhran (or not), there could very well be a cultural difference in what one hears the bodhran adding to the music or not (provided of course that the player can play it, and play it appropriately).
Apparently, in Ireland, we are told that a well played bodhran is greatly appreciated, whereas across the creek there, they are roundly despised, regardless of how they are played.
Don't you think that suggests some difference in cultural perception? It does to me; very strongly.
Of course the rhythm exists in the unaccompanied tunes. So?
That's well known.
To me, this whole question points up the different approaches to this music - to me it is a lot more than just a technical exercise in cranking out tunes (with rhythm, or often not, because the melody players don't seem to have a sense of it anyway, but they can knock out the notes alright.)
If there is a goodly proportion of listeners in the generally perceived country of origin of this music who actually *like* what an appropriately played bodhran adds to their enjoyment of the music, does that not suggest to you that it might be valid perception, even though you yourself do not like it, or cannot hear it?
I was not born in Ireland and did not have any exposure to this music until quite a mature age, but I very much like what a well played bodhran can do for the music.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
You've managed to turn a fun thread into a serious discussion, but when we cave in and participate all you do is crow about how bloody ignorant we are. And you name-drop like mad. Now where have we seen that before I have to ask myself.
For the record, all I was saying was NOT that I don't know any good bodhran players. I also gave you my opinion of why I don't like 'em in sessions, in case you missed it.. Naturally, you utterly fail to address this. So do you agree or disagree with my assertion that all the dynamism and rhythmic drive in Irish music is already there in the tunes? Careful what you say, because an awful lot of brilliant Irish music, full of drive and excitement, on recordings or in sessions, happens without bodhrans...
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"Steve Shaw - I do know a few good didge knee-slappers, but I'm afraid it won't get you out of trouble, it would just be light comedy relief. So hang in there."
What trouble?
"Apparently, in Ireland, we are told that a well played bodhran is greatly appreciated, whereas across the creek there, they are roundly despised, regardless of how they are played.
Don't you think that suggests some difference in cultural perception? It does to me; very strongly."
Nope. It strongly suggests to me that you're setting up an Aunt Sally. All we have is your penny-in-the-slot assertion that it's universally loved in ireland and universally hated in the UK. You are a very long way from demonstrating that this is the reality. It sounds to me like an assertion conjured up to support your championing of the goat. Where's yer evidence?
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
How in the name of Jaysus can you discuss something so intimate as the trad music world without naming the names of the practitioners?My favourite music to listen to is solo fiddle music and solo concertina music and I dont or would want to hear a bodhran playing along.The only thing I know in life is Irish Traditional music and I have been reading llig and about 5 others denigrading these musicians and now I realise you actually dont know the people you disparage.None of them! Thats not right.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I told you before. I have been to sessions in Ireland enough times over the years now to hear that there is a relative or better absence of disparaging remarks about bodhrans - and- that they are played there quite often.
This site is mainly the place where you hear these sorts of remarks. I think that is simply what your man bt is saying. He is also saying the same thing, that I know that I have observed there, so to me that is reasonably corroborative "evidence" if you will.
Maybe there is "evidence", I don't know, but it does seem to me that broadly, it is the cultural perception of this music that leads to this difference in view.
Is that ok with you?
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"It is however perceived by me that when that put down of an instrument becomes the norm it lowers the standards for a proper discussion forum on the music."
So don't make fun of all the crappy bodhran players in the world, because big_tab knows some good ones.
Are you serious?Who died and made you king? There are so many horrible bodhran abusers in the world tormenting sessions. You're damn right we're going to make fun of them until they stop or can actually keep a beat. If they don't want to get made fun of, they should quit screwing up the music and learn how to play their instruments properly.
If you live in some magical fantasy land where every bodhran player is a genius, you're a lucky man.
However, for most of us, that's not reality.
Now that's some serious musical discussion.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Well you love the owld goat and you're sticking up for it so I suppose we'll just have to take your word for it, huh? I'm getting fed of going round in circles. Neither of you is listening. I have three windows to paint and the grass to cut.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
That was to the two guys above you, SWFL.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Sorry for the testiness, I should have coffee before I post! If you think that was grumpy, imagine if you barged into our local session and started playing horrible bodhran at me!
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
but swfl, surely you've heard plenty of competent tune players who obviously haven't got a rhythmic bone in their body? I have. The music in that context becomes stale, cold and uninteresting, except from a technical point of view.
There is almost no mention on this site for example, of that phenomenon, certainly no "jokes" about it.
But I'm all ears if there are some.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
If they haven't got a rhythmic bone in their body they're not competent tune players, and a bloody army of brilliant bodhran players couldn't help 'em.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Its not the bodhran I love or the pipes or the accordion its the music and the musicians.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
yes, yes, Steve Shaw is saying that the rhythm is already in the tunes so you don't need a bodhran. Ok, right, got that. He's said it before, nothing new. What bt is saying *is* new, for this site anyway.
I suppose there's no real need to have that pane of glass in the windows, either, Steve, on that basis. You don't really need it, the light will get in without it, and it would aid air circulation as well, so why clutter it up with things that aren't necessary?
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Scenario. At your session an alpha fiddler strikes up a nice hornpipe that no-one else knows. No-one else joins in bar a bodhran player who has never been seen before in your session. He plays badly, destroying the set completely. Does your love extend to this bodhran player?
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Actually thanks to you Steve for sticking with the discussion.Your challenge of my thoughts and opinions has helped me formulate how I feel for myself.Dont know if that makes actual sense but I appreciate greatly the chance to chat about this.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
It's sad to see a chap struggling.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
That was directed at enlyke's window pane.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
enlyke: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24955
Don't think anyone was spared. Can you find yourself in there?
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
johndsamuels, that's obviously the fiddlers' fault for throwing off the blessed and saintly bodhran player!
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Jon .Thats plain silly.People who interfere with the music on any instument are a pain.Lets change the scenario.The tune starts up and the bodhran player you dont know happens to be a lovely player of which there are so many in spite of your experience.The solo musician hears the beat and immediately realises the rhythm is taken care of and proceeds to concentrate on expression and soars.The pub feels it and feet start tapping and people smile.Thats music.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
*that's* the shtyle. Brilliant craic like that.
There's a critical musical mass reached or something like that, and everyone is in it, not just musicians sittin' there and a whole lot of onlookers standin' there like statues, and clapping politely at the end of each set. Yek!
See, maybe it's cultural after all.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
That would be a great thread, all about the buzz we all get from a session in full flight. Pretty sure that's something we can all agree on.
This thread is about a bodhran joke though.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
bodhrans seem to be able to fire it up like that if they're done well. I dunno, maybe it only happens in Ireland.
Probably cultural.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
For sure. Only in Ireland do they have the magic to turn everyone with a dead goat into Johnny McDonagh.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I dont know Florida swfl.Just know that James Kelly lives there.I do know Boston and New York and Chicago and there are fine bodhran players there so its not just an Irish thing.I honestly havnt heard a bodhran player demean a session in years.Pipers! Now thats a whole new thread!
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I think you have silenced them, the tabber.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Personally, I think there is a time and place for a well-played bodhran in some sessions. I have heard sessions that I would point to as an example... Er, but that kind of pointing doesn't work on the internet... Nor does it work months or years after the session concerned... So, let's forget the pointing bit.
It has to be admitted that having a session fecked up by a bodhran (with attached arsehole) is possibly a more common outcome.
I take big_tab's point that it is probably a poor player that is the ruining factor more than the drum, and that there are some superb musicians who beat the goat.
The fact remains that there are people who don't care how well the drum is played: they think it an inherently unsuitable instrument for inclusion in a traditional session. That's fine, and surely the regulars in a session can be allowed to decide what they do and don't want at their table. Only a twit would start hammering away where he wasn't welcome.
It's probably true that bodhran is an easier instrument to play than most of the others used in ITM. After all, it's all about the rhythm - there are no "real" melodic or harmonic considerations. You hit it, you don't get tunes out of it. Ah, now there's *my* prejudice showing. I can't stand bodhrans when the drummer shows aspirations to try to get a tune out of it. It's a drum, for heaven's sake. I don't like the intrusive, flashy, "top-end" stuff. It's Kerry and Limerick or nowt. Subtle, supportive, playing not solo/feature playing.
All that said, I personally feel that the drum itself is as valid as any other instrument. It may be a Johnny-come-lately to ITM, but then so are guitar, bouzouki, harmonica, banjo and mandolin. It isn't a melody instrument, as the pure trad ones are, but then neither are guitar or 'zouk.
I can't argue with Steve that the rhythm and drive are already there in the music. That is so true. But that point just illustrates the fact that the drum is unnecessary, not that it is invalid. Take the drum out the equation and you'll still get percussion at a fired-up session. The musicians will tap their feet, someone may break out some bones, pub punters may tap or clap along.
The drum may not be what you want at your session, but it is not, in itself, a sh*te instrument, and when played properly and appropriately it is often welcome, and not at all a weapon of enjoyment destruction.
The rhythm is present in the music without the drum, but the drum (in a session or jam or whatever) that has no standing objection to it it can *contribute* to the rhythmic aspect.
I suppose someone (me) could argue (without much confidence) that the melodic dimension is fully there in the music as soon as one piper, fluter or fiddler plays. The other melody players are unnecessary, and a bad one could ruin the session.
I'm on shaky ground there, aren't I?
BTW, you can all still kiss my drum.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by buddhuu
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Yep, you're on shaky ground (I'm waiting for the primer to dry). You can argue about the dispensiblity of this, that or the other melody instrument, and I'm all for agreeing that some are more central to the tunes than others. But you do need one or more melody instruments. Irreducible. This music is melody. A drum on its own cannot make sensible Irish music but Irish music can get on perfectly well, better even, without a drum. Even technically-proficient drumming can grate. I love Altan and have all their CDs but the latter ones especially are blighted by a bloke on a bodhran. I hardly ever play 'em for that reason. Every time a cracking good set of reels gets going here he bloody comes again. I've seen 'em live twice, both times with no bodhran. Sublime. I wasn't looking round for something that seemed to be missing, I can tell you. Only an opinion.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"The solo musician hears the beat and immediately realises the rhythm is taken care of and proceeds to concentrate on expression and soars"
Is this supposed to make sense? The fiddler "proceeds to concentrate on expression" because "the rhythm is taken care of"? I just can't find a way that this is a sensible thing to say. You can't play trad music without playing the rhythm. If you play without the rhythm, you aren't playing trad. If the rhythm isn't in the tune, you're not playing the tune.
This reminds me a little of an assertion, long ago, that "the guitar holds the session together", which was also completely mystifying to me.
In any case, the drummer playing his "hornpipe rhythm" that he plays on every hornpipe and completely scrapping the tune is a much more common scenario, in my experience, than any transcendant soaring moment facilitated by the bongo player.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"I wasn't looking round for something that seemed to be missing, I can tell you"
I know you were talking about gigs, not sessions but , damn it, I am forced to admit that I have never been to a good session, where no drum was present, and thought "What this session needs is a bodhran".
Drat.
I still hold that the drum may unnecessary but it is not intrinsically ruinous, even in a session. I may not be able to back up my claim with any evidence whatsoever, but it remains a proven fact: therefore, I win.
That'll teach you.
(Done the grass yet?)
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by buddhuu
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
A traditional musician who plays better with a percussionist needs to seriously reassess their capabilities. If a melody player can't play on their own with good rhythm then they just can't play yet.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by bogman
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Spot on buddhuu. A drum does't necessarily ruin a session. But I would say anyone who doesn't think the bodhran is by far the most common session wrecking instrument can't go to many sessions. Or maybe they just have a bad ear and don't hear what goes on.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by bogman
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Absolute nonsense bogman!There are many great musicians who completely relax when they are accompanied well and play way better.If they didnt they wouldnt use an accomaniest.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Apologies bogman.I see you said percussionest and not accompaniest.Will reassess my thoughts!
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
A melody player with poor rhythm will sound better with a drum even though they're not playing any better. It's an illusion that they're playing better, okay perhaps for listeners but ruinous for the player who is being deluded into thinking they're playing well. I know this because when I started out I was that melody player. It took years of working with recordings of myself to get it better. You can't tackle a problem you don't know you've got.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"In any case, the drummer playing his "hornpipe rhythm" that he plays on every hornpipe and completely scrapping the tune is a much more common scenario, in my experience, than any transcendant soaring moment facilitated by the bongo player."
Jon, I would wager most of us have that same experience, the drummer playing the type of tune and not the tune itself. [insert stock rhythm here] When a drummer does have the skill and ability to play along with the tune and not just the type of tune, it's a great thing.
Well, except for those blessed and charmed folks who have never seen a bad bodhran player, and can't understand what all the fuss is about.
big_tab and enlyke, we understand that your experiences are the only valid ones and that all of ours are invalid, therefore you and right and we are wrong. Thanks so much for the scintillating and stimulating debate.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
A melody player with good rhythm can sound much better when accompanied by a drummer - if they're Joshua Redman playing a sax solo accompanied by Brian Blade, for example.
But in trad music, no.
The bodhran player sounds much better when playing with a good melody player than when playing solo, that much is true. But that might just be because you have something to listen to besides the bodhran.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Has anyone tried a bodhran as described in the O.P.
i.e. ~ having a drink from your pint w/tipper resting in it's custom repository?
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"But in trad music, no." (Jon K). Isn't a misunderstanding about that part of the problem ?
Someone reading the following could get the wrong idea about what a bodhran is for:
" Get a good guitarist and a good bodhran player, and another good flute player, or melody player who will allow you to do that. That's basically it. If you're playing with musicians who you trust, whether that's on stage or in a session, who you know will be there following every breath, and if you fall over yourself then they're there to pick it up and nothing's disappeared - the structure hasn't fallen apart. In [band name] I'm very lucky because I have the most extraordinary bodhran player in the world and he's just as solid as a rock. You know that no matter what happens, no matter how big a mistake you make...."
Bodhran player referred to says in an interview "what I do with ... is not trad"
(I'll give the source later, but its easy enough to guess)
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by David50
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
was the interview with big_tab?
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
http://www.firescribble.net/flute/finnegan.html
So, it's Flook then.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
That's the bloke who plays like water glugging out of a bottle then innit.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Steve..This is where my problem lies.John Joe Kelly is a bodhran player who three years ago I would have said was not to my taste.Flook and nearly all bands are not what I am looking for.Since then John Joe has spent a lot of tjme where I live and after hearing him in many sessions and gigs,(one memorabke trad fest gig with Eamonn Coyne ,Tim Edey and Eoin O' Neill) I have been totally won over by his music and his attitude to music which is trenendously positive.My problem with you and the other demeaners is the total negativity towards any musician who plays the bodhran.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I'm sure he's a nice guy, but John Joe Kelly's exactly the sort of bodhran player that makes me dislike even "good" bodhran players.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
So is this trad ?
http://www.archive.org/details/TomMorrisonIndianontheRockTheJollyPlowboyTheFoxChase
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by David50
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Are you judging JJK on what he does in the bands he plays with or what he does in a session Jon?
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by bogman
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I'd be careful about judging anyone's playing by how they perform on stage or in a recording studio. "Name" players usually know the difference between putting on a show and blending into a session, and their music adapts accordingly.
That said, part of the rub of the skin thumping trade is that bad thumpers can't play to the tune, and too many good thumpers tend to overplay, as though the bodhran is a marquee instrument. Overplaying (doing the cascading tones, say, or whomping away with heavy syncopation) may be fine for gigs, or as a one-off during a session, but I've heard capable-but-indiscrete drummers overplay all night long, ruining an otherwise pleasant evening of tunes. It's as though they're trying to compensate for not being able to play the melodies. Or they're bored just playing the rhythm.
What I hear in these endless bodhran-bashing threads is the notion that, in this music, a purely rhythm instrument simply isn't needed. In the right hands, any melody instrument can (and should) create the necessary pulse. You can't turn this argument around and make it work--a session without melody instruments isn't the music. Melody instruments *are* needed to play this music.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
david, that may be trad, but the bounding drum is overkill to my ears. It's too tight, for one thing, so the constant high boom competes with the flute. And the flute has plenty of pulse and punch, eh?
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
I never thought my musical tastes would change so much that I would be advocating John Joe Kelly as a great musician but he is. When the music is gentle his understanding of the tune is perfect. He is also ten years older than he was ten years ago.That last sentence is a fact!
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Hi big_tab
You are p*ssing against the wind here, you will never convince the bodhran despisers here.
Now as one who has heard about every possible disparaging remark about bodhrans and their players, the only effect that that has ever had on me has been to encourage me to practice even harder on my instrument of choice. This thread has given me lots of laughs and about 8 hours extra practice time over the last few days - all to the good with the All Ireland coming up next month.
So Steve, llig et alia, keep up the good work, I need the practice LOL.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by BigDavy
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
That's the thing, no matter about tastes but he is an excellent traditional musician with enormous experience, and he can play a pretty mean tune too. I don't think there are too many who don't respect musicians of his calibre.
The problem with bodhran, as has been discussed over and over, is that it's a magnet for musical freeloaders and for people who care about the music these belters coming in and having a negative effect on the tunes can be hard to stomach, and often the longer you've being playing trad the more sick of it you get. Not really the bodhran itself but the freeloaders who want to be part of it without bothering to learn the actual music.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by bogman
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
x post
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by bogman
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Hi Bigdavy.I dont spend my time thinking about bodhrans thinking mostly about the fiddle but generally thinking about the music but I have been kurking here for years and getting frustrated that noone takes them up on their dismissal of so many hundred great musicians in the tradition.What we have learned is that no good bodhran player goes near Steve ,Jon and swfl. Here is a statement that can be easily disproved by the hundreds of music people that pass through Co Clare every year.....From Feakle,through Tulla to Ennis on up through Corofin and Miltown and Kilfenora to Doolin there is no bodhran player who regularily plays in the sessions who is thought of negatively.. Big statement ..easily disproved.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Hi big_tab
It would be fun to have a few tunes with you on the fiddle, if you are ever in Glasgow, I will point you towards the good sessions.
The same goes for you Steve, llig will likely know them anyway.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by BigDavy
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
'From Feakle,through Tulla to Ennis on up through Corofin and Miltown and Kilfenora to Doolin there is no bodhran player who regularily plays in the sessions who is thought of negatively.. Big statement ..easily disproved.'
Indeed it is, but do you regularly visit these sessions yourself? If so, you must crack up a hell of a lot of miles during the week. I'm slightly puzzled why a musician of your obvious calibre isn't currently up in Miltown.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Mac Cruiskeen hundreds of music lovers know whose playing in all the session s in Clare.I have been attending sessions for years but you would access this information in weeks if you were interested around here.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
If you want to learn how to take a lighthearted thread, and suck the life out of it, this thread is a master's course. The key seems to be to have someone (usually who can't spell or express themselves very well with the written word) just keep pounding on the same point over and over and over, seemingly in the vain hope that eventually, everyone will agree with them. Pure tedium...
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Al I apologize to you for my poor use of English but I didnt realize you had to pass some exam in order to discuss music. Maybe I have gone on too long and repeated the same point. I have all right.Will try to stop now.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by big_tab
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
It's not that you have to pass an exam. It's that writing is thinking made visible. And if someone's writing is sloppy and ill formed, chances are so is their thinking.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Point taken about the Tom Morrison Will, and maybe it was a line-up put together by the record company. But it's a snapshot of the past that rings warning bells in my mind when reading some of what is said here.
Bogman has summarised the 'bodhran problem' above, and Pete did it here: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21784/comments#comment452844
I am inclined to the 'not neccessary and mostly not harmless' view on bodhrans in sessions (including my own!) but I am curious about big_tab's snapshot of the present however imperfectly it may be described. Brian Finnegan does mention sessions in that quote, even though the context was something done on stage.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by David50
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
Crossed. I am think pot having a few maybe tasty drops in the bottom rather than almost empty.
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by David50
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
"am thinking a" "than being almost"
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by David50
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
There is a goal for drummers to aspire to: "Mostly Harmless."
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
(\___/)
(='.'=) Never Regret
(")_(") Something That Once
Made You Smile : )
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
# Posted on July 8th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: A thought for bodhran manufacturers / repairers...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZR2hur_fVI
# Posted on July 9th 2010 by Gone to work