A variation of the old Edinburgh saying "You'll have had your tea."
Ever frequented a session comprised of mainly singers and/or singer/strummers (I know it's my own fault!) and, while musicians are not unwelcome, one set of tunes is counted as " a turn" regardless how many musos are playing at the time?
What's more, it doesn't really work for a different person to lead another set or do a solo. We are are expected and encouraged to play together..... a tune to "break things up".
However, the singers get a song each.
It's their session, of course, and not much point in complaining either there or here. Just wondering if you've experienced this strange train of thought in your travels?
It's no wonder that tune players tend to stick together and are rightly protective of their own environment.
But John, these aren't sessions as we know them. They're singarounds, or an informal type of folk club. I imagine they are historically derived from folk clubs with the informality of a tune session thrown in. Sometimes they overlap, and tune players can do a few sets, or you get a situation where tune players are "allowed" to turn it into a session at the end of the singaround, with the few tune players joining together for a few sets. Did you not in previous posts rightly call this phenomenon the Circle of Death?
Personally I tend to avoid them. But then I avoid crap sessions anyway.
I play regularly in a mixed singer/musician environment like that where everyone takes a turn in order, but we call it a folk club rather than a session.
As a musician I think I actually enjoy it more than normal sessions, because in a session you are pretty much restricted to starting stuff that others are likely to know.
In the folk club you are free to bring out obscure or complex tunes that wouldn't work in a session, and play them solo, or possibly with one backer who is good enough to find the chords on the fly.
Yes, it's true that as I sit there waiting my turn I hope that others will start tunes I can join in with, but if they don't that's fine. I'm quite happy to sit back and listen.
Yes, that's a singaround. Haven't been to one for years, but when I did, my turn would come round every so often and I'd do a (solo) tune or set of tunes. Sometimes (in my own subjective opinion, anyway...) I judged it OK to play along with a singer. I am still in one piece, so can't have roused uncontainable wrath. I took the set-up for what it was, and knew it was different from a session, so didn't feel short-changed. Mind, I *do* prefer sessions!
Actually skreech makes a good point above - you can try out unusual stuff in a singaround or folk club spot that you may feel unable to introduce to a session.
Maybe I'm being pedantic but I usually think of a "singaround" as one of those situations where "turns" are done in strict rotation. Where I live the majority of musical gatherings are mixed "sessions" where anything goes - you just jump in when you feel like it, song or tune it doesn't matter. There are a few tunes only sessions around but the population is so sparse we can't qafford to be that exclusive.
...in a session you are pretty much restricted to starting stuff that others are likely to know
Hmmm. I don't think you should be obliged to play just tunes that everyone knows in a regular session. How else would new tunes get into a sessions repertoire if not for someone playing it through solo first.
In the Pub where I was at just last night the landlord has been running a session every thursday for nearly 50 years and unlike many 'in the middle of nowhere' pubs today it still brings in good crowds...this has made the landlord pretty well off money wise.
And he loves a good tune but his session (he has every right to see it as his) can become frequently awash with singers and strummers so when it comes to the end of the session he issues them with a brown envelope.
Now the regulars are all respectfull of this envelope because those who get it don't come back.
....stuff people are likely to know, or be able to pick up fairly quickly.
You won't last long in a session if you keep starting William Marshall tunes in E flat, that never go below third position. But those tunes are part of the tradition, and deserve to be played somewhere.
I have a theory that Marshall and one or two other fiddlers deliberately wrote in stupid keys specifically to stop flutes, whistles and pipes from trying to join in.
(mind you, in one or two sessions I go to, it wouldn't stop them trying!)
Thanks for all the replys. A singaround or "mixed" format is fair enough if you want to do this and I don't really mind waiting my turn to have a tune if I decide to take part in these. As others have said, it's an opportunity to try something out or play a piece of music(that you particularly like) which might not be appropriate for a normal tune session.
However, I've usually no objection to other musicians "joining in" with me and vice versa but I don't see why this practice should mean that one has to forfeit his or her turn which seems to be the prevailing view of many singers.
In many such scenarios (Not all, thankfully), the rule seems to be
One singer ..... one song
There is something to be said for a taciturn tune player. They don't spend much time in forums.
Cheers, Danny ~ "Hmmm. I don't think you should be obliged to play just tunes that everyone knows in a regular session. How else would new tunes get into a sessions repertoire if not for someone playing it through solo first."
>I have a theory that Marshall and one or two other fiddlers deliberately wrote in stupid keys specifically to stop flutes, whistles and pipes from trying to join in
But you can get whistles flutes and pipes in all sorts of keys. And boehm flutes are chromatic, as are bc boxes.
And as william marshall lived from 1748 – 1833, were there many Scottish music sessions around Fochabers then?
"And as william marshall lived from 1748 – 1833, were there many Scottish music sessions around Fochabers then?"
I was being a little flippant. But there is almost certainly an element of truth in what I said - when asked about the range and keys of his music, Marshall replied "I don't write tunes for bunglers."
I shouldn't say anymore here in case I get accused of "bleating".
Fair enough, I'm having a wee moan here but "on site" or at "the locus", it was actually the singers who were complaining about there being too many tunes and not the other way around. That's their prerogative, of course, as it was their session.
However, I will state here and now that I am usually a very recitent player/performer(depends on situation) and generally very happy to allow the more eager and energetic musicians and singers to get their tunes and songs out of their system.
Generally, I don't tend to start off too many sets of a night or seek to hog the limelight. That's not my style at all which is why I prefer the comfort of a more informal and sociable set up.
I was at a singaround a few years ago which worked as John J describes. One of the instrumentalists decided his turn was going to be "The Little Cascade" (a six-part reel). And did it four times through.
Some of the singers were extremely p*ssed off, and I could sympathize.
What was the point of your last comment? I'm scratching my head a bit. There are times when you come across as forthright and opinionated, and others when you seem nothing more than an antagonist. I appreciate you much more in the former incarnation.
Boehm flutes aren't necessarily chromatic. even the best flutes of that system favor certain keys over others. A flautist that I play with frequently refuses to play Ashplant because of the droning c# in the B part because c# is her weakest note, but she doesn't mind at all if it's just a passing tone. The flute in its design favors certain keys which are closer to C natural, just like most other instruments do.
boehm flutes *are* necessarily chromatic and she should do something about it. Like. Get it repadded or learn the fingering for the weird keys or just don't bother and admit she doesn't know that stuff. But they are chromatic. Who told you otherwise and why?
The song circle and tune session are very different worlds.
I can understand how singers used to the circle format, waiting their tune, get frustrated with the tune players, who get to join in with the other tune players every time one launches into a set. They get a lot more playing time that way than the singers do. Then you get the poor singer who shows up at a tune session, who expects respectful silence, and gets the continued conversation in the pub, and instrumentalists trying to join in on his or her moment of solo glory.
I remember one time sitting in on a song circle in East Durham during the Irish week. I found it agonizing. Too many long mournful minor key ballads. When it came my turn, I think I sang I'll Tell Me Ma, or some other simple major key ditty, just to change the pace, and got odd looks from some of the singers there. On the other hand, one evening at one of Gary Martin's house concerts, I ended up in an after concert song circle/session hybrid, with folks like Edel Fox, Aoife Clancy, Tim Dennehey, and some other awesomely talented people whose names I should remember, and it was magical. So I think my two song circle experiences probably represents the two extremes of the genre, from worst to best!
"You'll have had your tune...."
"You'll have had your tune...."
A variation of the old Edinburgh saying "You'll have had your tea."
Ever frequented a session comprised of mainly singers and/or singer/strummers (I know it's my own fault!) and, while musicians are not unwelcome, one set of tunes is counted as " a turn" regardless how many musos are playing at the time?
What's more, it doesn't really work for a different person to lead another set or do a solo. We are are expected and encouraged to play together..... a tune to "break things up".
However, the singers get a song each.
It's their session, of course, and not much point in complaining either there or here. Just wondering if you've experienced this strange train of thought in your travels?
It's no wonder that tune players tend to stick together and are rightly protective of their own environment.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Johnny Jay
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
I'll burn that bridge when I get to it.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
I realise that it's pointless having a "grump" here but it can be fun sometimes....
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Johnny Jay
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
But John, these aren't sessions as we know them. They're singarounds, or an informal type of folk club. I imagine they are historically derived from folk clubs with the informality of a tune session thrown in. Sometimes they overlap, and tune players can do a few sets, or you get a situation where tune players are "allowed" to turn it into a session at the end of the singaround, with the few tune players joining together for a few sets. Did you not in previous posts rightly call this phenomenon the Circle of Death?
Personally I tend to avoid them. But then I avoid crap sessions anyway.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
I just noticed an advert for an "Open Session" yesterday and went out of curiousity.
Only got myself to blame......
However, I don't necessarily avoid such things. Some can be quite good especially if I like the people involved and I'm in the right mood.
"Circle of Death"
I got that from you, did I not?
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Johnny Jay
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
I play regularly in a mixed singer/musician environment like that where everyone takes a turn in order, but we call it a folk club rather than a session.
As a musician I think I actually enjoy it more than normal sessions, because in a session you are pretty much restricted to starting stuff that others are likely to know.
In the folk club you are free to bring out obscure or complex tunes that wouldn't work in a session, and play them solo, or possibly with one backer who is good enough to find the chords on the fly.
Yes, it's true that as I sit there waiting my turn I hope that others will start tunes I can join in with, but if they don't that's fine. I'm quite happy to sit back and listen.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by skreech
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Yes, that's a singaround. Haven't been to one for years, but when I did, my turn would come round every so often and I'd do a (solo) tune or set of tunes. Sometimes (in my own subjective opinion, anyway...) I judged it OK to play along with a singer. I am still in one piece, so can't have roused uncontainable wrath. I took the set-up for what it was, and knew it was different from a session, so didn't feel short-changed. Mind, I *do* prefer sessions!
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by nicholas
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Actually skreech makes a good point above - you can try out unusual stuff in a singaround or folk club spot that you may feel unable to introduce to a session.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by nicholas
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Maybe I'm being pedantic but I usually think of a "singaround" as one of those situations where "turns" are done in strict rotation. Where I live the majority of musical gatherings are mixed "sessions" where anything goes - you just jump in when you feel like it, song or tune it doesn't matter. There are a few tunes only sessions around but the population is so sparse we can't qafford to be that exclusive.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
And, yes, we do a bit of qaffing!
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
crikey
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by ...
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
.. I'm away for my messages ...
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by ...
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
... "salt and sauce?"
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by ...
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
...in a session you are pretty much restricted to starting stuff that others are likely to know
Hmmm. I don't think you should be obliged to play just tunes that everyone knows in a regular session. How else would new tunes get into a sessions repertoire if not for someone playing it through solo first.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Had salt and sauce on my smoked sausage supper last night (couldn't afford fish).
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
In the Pub where I was at just last night the landlord has been running a session every thursday for nearly 50 years and unlike many 'in the middle of nowhere' pubs today it still brings in good crowds...this has made the landlord pretty well off money wise.
And he loves a good tune but his session (he has every right to see it as his) can become frequently awash with singers and strummers so when it comes to the end of the session he issues them with a brown envelope.
Now the regulars are all respectfull of this envelope because those who get it don't come back.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by premier
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Yep, it's a folk club.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by gam
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
@ danny whistle flute box:
....stuff people are likely to know, or be able to pick up fairly quickly.
You won't last long in a session if you keep starting William Marshall tunes in E flat, that never go below third position. But those tunes are part of the tradition, and deserve to be played somewhere.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by skreech
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
What's in the envelope Premier?!
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Bernie 29
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Not money, presumably ..! ...
Would it be more like a "black spot" - rather like the "I'll tip'ee the black spot" that llig was referring to in that other thread? ...
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
.. and is that landlord appreciative of bodhrans, I wonder? ...
http://www.oranmor.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/tom-does-drum.jpg
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
You won't last long in a session if you keep starting William Marshall tunes in E flat, that never go below third position.
- First I've heard of a third position on the flute whistle or box.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
I have a theory that Marshall and one or two other fiddlers deliberately wrote in stupid keys specifically to stop flutes, whistles and pipes from trying to join in.
(mind you, in one or two sessions I go to, it wouldn't stop them trying!)
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by skreech
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Hi all, I'm back.
Thanks for all the replys. A singaround or "mixed" format is fair enough if you want to do this and I don't really mind waiting my turn to have a tune if I decide to take part in these. As others have said, it's an opportunity to try something out or play a piece of music(that you particularly like) which might not be appropriate for a normal tune session.
However, I've usually no objection to other musicians "joining in" with me and vice versa but I don't see why this practice should mean that one has to forfeit his or her turn which seems to be the prevailing view of many singers.
In many such scenarios (Not all, thankfully), the rule seems to be
One singer ..... one song
Several musicians .... One tune (or set)!
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Johnny Jay
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Awfull
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by premier
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Two questions from my first encounter with what I thought was a session but which turned out to be a circle of death:
1) Why are there so many verses to unaccompanied songs?
2) Why didn't I sit near the door?
But the good bits are that there can be some fantastic singing and/or playing if you're lucky.
I do go to them occasionally but with full knowledge of what I'm letting myself in for. And just in case...I sit near the door!
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Mark Harmer
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Jeseus christ John, "It's my turn next, my turm MY TURN!" You sound like a bleeting 5-year old.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by ...
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
There is something to be said for a taciturn tune player. They don't spend much time in forums.
Cheers, Danny ~ "Hmmm. I don't think you should be obliged to play just tunes that everyone knows in a regular session. How else would new tunes get into a sessions repertoire if not for someone playing it through solo first."
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: "...."
Anyone have the dots for 4'33"?
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
...
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Mark Harmer
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
>I have a theory that Marshall and one or two other fiddlers deliberately wrote in stupid keys specifically to stop flutes, whistles and pipes from trying to join in
But you can get whistles flutes and pipes in all sorts of keys. And boehm flutes are chromatic, as are bc boxes.
And as william marshall lived from 1748 – 1833, were there many Scottish music sessions around Fochabers then?
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Some players are fairly chromatic without a Boehm.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
or without keys and they are damn good
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by premier
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
"But you can get whistles flutes and pipes in all sorts of keys. And boehm flutes are chromatic, as are bc boxes."
That's OK, then. At our next session I'll out 'The Marchioness of Cornwallis', and everyone can join in if they like.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by skreech
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
"And as william marshall lived from 1748 – 1833, were there many Scottish music sessions around Fochabers then?"
I was being a little flippant. But there is almost certainly an element of truth in what I said - when asked about the range and keys of his music, Marshall replied "I don't write tunes for bunglers."
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by skreech
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/marshall.htm
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Oh, so by implication flute and whistle players are bunglers then?
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
""It's my turn next, my turm MY TURN!""
I shouldn't say anymore here in case I get accused of "bleating".
Fair enough, I'm having a wee moan here but "on site" or at "the locus", it was actually the singers who were complaining about there being too many tunes and not the other way around. That's their prerogative, of course, as it was their session.
However, I will state here and now that I am usually a very recitent player/performer(depends on situation) and generally very happy to allow the more eager and energetic musicians and singers to get their tunes and songs out of their system.
Generally, I don't tend to start off too many sets of a night or seek to hog the limelight. That's not my style at all which is why I prefer the comfort of a more informal and sociable set up.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Johnny Jay
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Obviously not, Danny, if they have a Boehm system flute &/or whistles in all the flat keys.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
JJR - find a different session
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by premier
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
I was at a singaround a few years ago which worked as John J describes. One of the instrumentalists decided his turn was going to be "The Little Cascade" (a six-part reel). And did it four times through.
Some of the singers were extremely p*ssed off, and I could sympathize.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Fair play to him
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by premier
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
llig -
What was the point of your last comment? I'm scratching my head a bit. There are times when you come across as forthright and opinionated, and others when you seem nothing more than an antagonist. I appreciate you much more in the former incarnation.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Boehm flutes aren't necessarily chromatic. even the best flutes of that system favor certain keys over others. A flautist that I play with frequently refuses to play Ashplant because of the droning c# in the B part because c# is her weakest note, but she doesn't mind at all if it's just a passing tone. The flute in its design favors certain keys which are closer to C natural, just like most other instruments do.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
She should do something about it
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by premier
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Jimmy, there was no pont to it at all. I was just giving John J a ribbing. You gotta admit, he deserved it.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by ...
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Alright, alright. Carry on, then.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
boehm flutes *are* necessarily chromatic and she should do something about it. Like. Get it repadded or learn the fingering for the weird keys or just don't bother and admit she doesn't know that stuff. But they are chromatic. Who told you otherwise and why?
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
I daresay you deserve everything you get here too, eh Llig?
# Posted on June 26th 2010 by Johnny Jay
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
The song circle and tune session are very different worlds.
I can understand how singers used to the circle format, waiting their tune, get frustrated with the tune players, who get to join in with the other tune players every time one launches into a set. They get a lot more playing time that way than the singers do. Then you get the poor singer who shows up at a tune session, who expects respectful silence, and gets the continued conversation in the pub, and instrumentalists trying to join in on his or her moment of solo glory.
I remember one time sitting in on a song circle in East Durham during the Irish week. I found it agonizing. Too many long mournful minor key ballads. When it came my turn, I think I sang I'll Tell Me Ma, or some other simple major key ditty, just to change the pace, and got odd looks from some of the singers there. On the other hand, one evening at one of Gary Martin's house concerts, I ended up in an after concert song circle/session hybrid, with folks like Edel Fox, Aoife Clancy, Tim Dennehey, and some other awesomely talented people whose names I should remember, and it was magical. So I think my two song circle experiences probably represents the two extremes of the genre, from worst to best!
# Posted on June 27th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: "You'll have had your tune...."
Al,Tim D has a way of singing ln a house session that makes you leave down your instrument and enjoy every word.
# Posted on June 27th 2010 by big_tab