I have no knowledge or experience of accordions though have been playing trad on the banjo for a bit now. I've always liked the sound of the accordion and bought it on impulse.
Now I have the thing at home and after a few googles I realise its not a simple matter figuring out what keys your rows are and what you're bass notes are etc. If you guys could point me in the direction of a button layout page and perhaps a relevant page that has some lessons etc on it.
Would anyone out there be able to tell from the picture what kind of box it is? A model name would be great also. Oh, and what sort of length should the strap on the right be? It has broken and I have some nice leather to replace it with.
Also, are there any tunes which are particularly easy on the accordion for starting off? Thanks in advance,
Pretty. What's the layout? Easiest way to figure it out: what chord you get on the push on the inner row and on the outer row? Knowing that, we can probably throw you more suggestions than you'll know what to do with.
I've only been playing for just over a year (also from a banjo background), so bearing that in mind IMHO...
probably the easiest and first thing to do is compare the two rows to each other. Check if they sound a semitone or half an octave apart. The outer row should be the lower sounding row.
For playing irish music you ideally want the rows to be a semi tone apart. If you have that set up then regardless of the actual pitch you can work away at playing in either C#D or bc style. If necessary you can subsequently switch to a concert-pitch instryment for the style you chose.
If the rows have a bigger gap than a semitone then you can still play around with the box and have fun playing irish tunes, but your box will be of a kind more often used in continental-european or english music.
To play a scale down the rows start from the third button of the inside row and play:
3rd push doh; pull ray
4th push me; pull fah
5th push soh; pull lah
6th **pull tee; push doh**
Note that the pattern switches at the 6th button. This seesm odd at first but it means that the same three notes are repeated on the push in each octave, with the other four on the pull.
That pattern above is the basic D scale on a c#d. It is probably less helpful for playing bc style but will at least let you mess about. You can play a scale on the outside row using a similar pattern, but star a button lower down.
You'll find detailed charts on melodeon.net.
Good luck and have fun. I find the box great fun myself for messinga round with.
I have one that looks exactly the same. It is a 3 voice from the 1930s or 1940s and I think Hohner hadn't started using the name Corso at that point. It's a precursor - or Pre-Corso" if you like.
I got my mate to bring over a guitar tuner so i could read the notes coming out of it, it appears to be a b/c, ill have to work the bass notes out as well. thanks guys.
any suggestions for online lessons or instructional youtube videos?
If it's B/C then you're in luck. These models are plentiful in other tunings that are much less suitable for Irish music.
But the basses, if they are original, won't be of very much use. It took Hohner a few decades to work out how people were playing all these hundreds or thousands of B/C instruments that they were selling! The basses are probably useful for playing in either B or C major and not for playing in D or G etc.
As far as lessons are concerned, I think you'd be better off trying to get a few pointers from a real player rather than a virtual one - shouldn't be difficult in Dublin! The B/C system is slower than, say, C#/D, to yield up its secrets and that's why I recommend you get a couple of lessons to start you off.
Hmm. The details have arrived: it is in C. I assume (being abysmally ignorant of the ways of accordions) that it would be difficult to have a meaningful relationship with most tunage with a C box.....
Au contraire, Batlady, B/C is the tuning used by probably 2/3 of button box players. It's gerat fun for tunes in all of the popular trad keys, although A can be tricky if you're not careful (you run out of bellows on the long draw passages).
Regarding the RH strap, you could just swap over the LH strap for the time being. Almost all the box players I see in sessions use only the RH strap - they're seated of course. I use only the RH strap myself. If you play it standing then obviously you'd need both straps.
Oh, I missed that post - I thought you were posting in re Lunney's find. Yeah, it's true that a B/C would be what you want. A one-row in C would be tricky. But you could play all the tunes, just a whole step down, and there are some that you could play in normal pitch as well. (Blarney Pilgrim and the Blackthorn Stick come to mind)
Batlady, howdy ol' friend ~ C boxes were quite common, in Ireland and elsewhere, and you can still find some lovely recordings, such as that lovely one that features tina player Kitty Hayes and Peter Laban on C pipes. Yes, uilleann pipes too. As to any friends that play the whistle, they should have a C whistle on hand too. C is a good place to take this music, along with the relative keys such as D Dorian an G Mixolydian, etc., and 'C' is not the only option.
Is it possible that the box has gone out of tune in its old age? I don't have a guitar tuner on me but I could swear some of the notes sound pretty flat... :(
Yes possible. But bear in mind it's a 3 voice box, meaning that for every note played 3 reeds should be sounding. On boxes of this vintage, typically one voice will be at concert pitch, one sharp, and one flat. And the voices are likely to be quite a long way apart by modern standards, giving that classic "wet" tremolo sound that Michael G loves so much.
It's quite possible that on some notes, not all the reeds are sounding - this can be caused by dust, or problems with the little leather or plastic valves. This could easily affect the pitch of the note in question. Try playing it hard, sometimes this will clear the throat of recalcitrant reeds.
But yes, as noted above, very likely it needs tuning, and depending on whether you decide to alter the tremolo, and on whether other work needs doing on the reeds (re-waxing and revalving) you could be in for a nasty surprise.
Ha! That's why I said you were in luck if it was a B/C. So now you're not quite so lucky.
The main use for C/C# boxes these days is an "Eb" box for B/C players (since it is a semitone above B/C). But unless you are thinking of replacing Damien Mullane in the Frankie Gavin's band, this isn't the tuning you want.
If you wanted to play Irish music on this box in the normal keys, you'd have to play it "outside-in", that is, with the outer C row as your home row, and using the inner row, basically, for whatever notes you don't have in the home row. (Whereas C#/D and B/C players play "inside-out", with the inner row as the home row.)
I wouldn't recommend putting much time into learning the C/C# system. For one thing, you won't find a teacher easily, and there are no tutorials in DVD or book form, and for another it's just not the best system for playing in keys with one or two sharps.
But all is not lost. What you can do with this box is experiment with the fingerings of both B/C and C#/D systems. Play on the inner row and pretend that it is C and D respectively (rather than C#).
If after a while you feel like continuing with either system you can look out for a box in the tuning you prefer.
You could have this box converted to either B/C or C#/D of course but frankly I don't think it would be worth it. If you want to know why I wouldn't bother, I can elaborate later.
Calling all accordion nerds...
Calling all accordion nerds...
So I was passing Oxfam today and saw this in the window for a very reasonable price.
http://davidlunney.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/IMG_0984-1024x768.jpg
I have no knowledge or experience of accordions though have been playing trad on the banjo for a bit now. I've always liked the sound of the accordion and bought it on impulse.
Now I have the thing at home and after a few googles I realise its not a simple matter figuring out what keys your rows are and what you're bass notes are etc. If you guys could point me in the direction of a button layout page and perhaps a relevant page that has some lessons etc on it.
Would anyone out there be able to tell from the picture what kind of box it is? A model name would be great also. Oh, and what sort of length should the strap on the right be? It has broken and I have some nice leather to replace it with.
Also, are there any tunes which are particularly easy on the accordion for starting off? Thanks in advance,
Lunney
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by dlunney
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Pretty. What's the layout? Easiest way to figure it out: what chord you get on the push on the inner row and on the outer row? Knowing that, we can probably throw you more suggestions than you'll know what to do with.
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
I know nothing about accordions, but that's a nice looking box. What a great find!
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
http://old.melodeon.net/info.html should give you pretty well what you want.
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Hi Lunney,
I've only been playing for just over a year (also from a banjo background), so bearing that in mind IMHO...
probably the easiest and first thing to do is compare the two rows to each other. Check if they sound a semitone or half an octave apart. The outer row should be the lower sounding row.
For playing irish music you ideally want the rows to be a semi tone apart. If you have that set up then regardless of the actual pitch you can work away at playing in either C#D or bc style. If necessary you can subsequently switch to a concert-pitch instryment for the style you chose.
If the rows have a bigger gap than a semitone then you can still play around with the box and have fun playing irish tunes, but your box will be of a kind more often used in continental-european or english music.
To play a scale down the rows start from the third button of the inside row and play:
3rd push doh; pull ray
4th push me; pull fah
5th push soh; pull lah
6th **pull tee; push doh**
Note that the pattern switches at the 6th button. This seesm odd at first but it means that the same three notes are repeated on the push in each octave, with the other four on the pull.
That pattern above is the basic D scale on a c#d. It is probably less helpful for playing bc style but will at least let you mess about. You can play a scale on the outside row using a similar pattern, but star a button lower down.
You'll find detailed charts on melodeon.net.
Good luck and have fun. I find the box great fun myself for messinga round with.
- chris
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
ps on a bc the pattren above would give you the scale of c
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Sweet! How much did it cost you? It's nice to see it has found a good home, trusting that's the case...
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
WHOOSH! Where did all that come from? Nice one RP...
Back to the soup...
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by ceolachan
http://info.melodeon.net/
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Don't keep us in suspenders....how much ?????
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by Free Reed
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
210E!
I'm presently reading through some of the material posted, thanks, I'll write back with impessions/ questions soon.
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by dlunney
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
The Key should be stamped on either the top or bottom of the bass end strap. I think that models a corso.
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by dinn2
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv2XjpuqtyA
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by dinn2
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
I have one that looks exactly the same. It is a 3 voice from the 1930s or 1940s and I think Hohner hadn't started using the name Corso at that point. It's a precursor - or Pre-Corso" if you like.
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
pre-corso... nice.
I got my mate to bring over a guitar tuner so i could read the notes coming out of it, it appears to be a b/c, ill have to work the bass notes out as well. thanks guys.
any suggestions for online lessons or instructional youtube videos?
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by dlunney
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
If it's B/C then you're in luck. These models are plentiful in other tunings that are much less suitable for Irish music.
But the basses, if they are original, won't be of very much use. It took Hohner a few decades to work out how people were playing all these hundreds or thousands of B/C instruments that they were selling! The basses are probably useful for playing in either B or C major and not for playing in D or G etc.
As far as lessons are concerned, I think you'd be better off trying to get a few pointers from a real player rather than a virtual one - shouldn't be difficult in Dublin! The B/C system is slower than, say, C#/D, to yield up its secrets and that's why I recommend you get a couple of lessons to start you off.
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
You lucky dog! I just spotted a one-row on craigslist this morning, and am awaiting details. I love foraging for cool stuff.
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by Michele Sims
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Hmm. The details have arrived: it is in C. I assume (being abysmally ignorant of the ways of accordions) that it would be difficult to have a meaningful relationship with most tunage with a C box.....
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by Michele Sims
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Looks like a Hohner Double Ray De-Lux model which is a rare 3 voice tuned in B/C nice find. Like this one that is on e-bay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Old-Hohner-Double-Ray-Black-Dot-Button-Key-Accordion-/120585712382?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Keyboard_RL&hash=item1c1377f2fe
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by upmine3
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Au contraire, Batlady, B/C is the tuning used by probably 2/3 of button box players. It's gerat fun for tunes in all of the popular trad keys, although A can be tricky if you're not careful (you run out of bellows on the long draw passages).
# Posted on June 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Regarding the RH strap, you could just swap over the LH strap for the time being. Almost all the box players I see in sessions use only the RH strap - they're seated of course. I use only the RH strap myself. If you play it standing then obviously you'd need both straps.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
"You lucky dog! I just spotted a one-row on craigslist this morning, and am awaiting details. I love foraging for cool stuff."
If anyone sees any sets of uilleann pipes on Craigslist made by anyone named Egan, Kenna, or Coyne, you know who to PM. ;)
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# Posted on June 25th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Spear, I searched Portland and only came up with a complete set of vintage Nancy Drew books, including......The Clue of the Whistling Bagpipes.
Jon-thanks for the input! I am a little less abysmally ignorant. Perhaps only gaping chasm ignorant.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Michele Sims
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Didn't you say it was a one-row you had spotted, Batlady? In which case it can't be a B/C, just a C, so you can ignore Jon's input.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Batlady - don't think of ignorance as a gaping chasm or an abyss. Think of it as an area on the map that you haven't explored yet.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Oh, I missed that post - I thought you were posting in re Lunney's find. Yeah, it's true that a B/C would be what you want. A one-row in C would be tricky. But you could play all the tunes, just a whole step down, and there are some that you could play in normal pitch as well. (Blarney Pilgrim and the Blackthorn Stick come to mind)
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Ignore Jon....check
Map of unknown....check
http://notival.com/ninsianna/?m=200704
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Michele Sims
'C' squeezes
Batlady, howdy ol' friend ~ C boxes were quite common, in Ireland and elsewhere, and you can still find some lovely recordings, such as that lovely one that features tina player Kitty Hayes and Peter Laban on C pipes. Yes, uilleann pipes too. As to any friends that play the whistle, they should have a C whistle on hand too. C is a good place to take this music, along with the relative keys such as D Dorian an G Mixolydian, etc., and 'C' is not the only option.
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1889
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
"B/C is the tuning used by probably 2/3 of button box players"
In Ireland maybe...
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Paul_draper
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Is it possible that the box has gone out of tune in its old age? I don't have a guitar tuner on me but I could swear some of the notes sound pretty flat... :(
please tell me its just my imagination.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by dlunney
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
We bought a lovely old accordion a few years back, and ended up spending more than twice what we paid to get it to get it patched up and tuned...
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Sol Foster
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Yes possible. But bear in mind it's a 3 voice box, meaning that for every note played 3 reeds should be sounding. On boxes of this vintage, typically one voice will be at concert pitch, one sharp, and one flat. And the voices are likely to be quite a long way apart by modern standards, giving that classic "wet" tremolo sound that Michael G loves so much.
It's quite possible that on some notes, not all the reeds are sounding - this can be caused by dust, or problems with the little leather or plastic valves. This could easily affect the pitch of the note in question. Try playing it hard, sometimes this will clear the throat of recalcitrant reeds.
But yes, as noted above, very likely it needs tuning, and depending on whether you decide to alter the tremolo, and on whether other work needs doing on the reeds (re-waxing and revalving) you could be in for a nasty surprise.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
I'll give it a good squeeze to try and clear its throat.
Using a tuner I gauged every note and then cross referenced it with some diagrams I found online, it seems to actually be a c/c sharp box. like this:
http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/CC21hohnerbass.gif
is this suitable for ITM?
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by dlunney
Re: Calling all accordion nerds...
Ha! That's why I said you were in luck if it was a B/C. So now you're not quite so lucky.
The main use for C/C# boxes these days is an "Eb" box for B/C players (since it is a semitone above B/C). But unless you are thinking of replacing Damien Mullane in the Frankie Gavin's band, this isn't the tuning you want.
If you wanted to play Irish music on this box in the normal keys, you'd have to play it "outside-in", that is, with the outer C row as your home row, and using the inner row, basically, for whatever notes you don't have in the home row. (Whereas C#/D and B/C players play "inside-out", with the inner row as the home row.)
I wouldn't recommend putting much time into learning the C/C# system. For one thing, you won't find a teacher easily, and there are no tutorials in DVD or book form, and for another it's just not the best system for playing in keys with one or two sharps.
But all is not lost. What you can do with this box is experiment with the fingerings of both B/C and C#/D systems. Play on the inner row and pretend that it is C and D respectively (rather than C#).
If after a while you feel like continuing with either system you can look out for a box in the tuning you prefer.
You could have this box converted to either B/C or C#/D of course but frankly I don't think it would be worth it. If you want to know why I wouldn't bother, I can elaborate later.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Jeeves Tones