I was reading some of your comments in the previous thread about whether or not the low whistle is a transitional instrument to flute, and you mentioned that you would like to pick up the flute because of the "great range of stuff which is unavailable on the fiddle." What exactly do you mean by that? Of course each instrument has their own idiosyncrasies, and a flute will obviously create lift in a different way than a fiddle, but how is it that the inverse of your statement is not true - that the fiddle doesn't have a great range of stuff that is unavailable to the flute?
I'm curious to hear yours and others opinion on the matter. Personally, I really enjoy listening to good flute players, especially when they give great lift to the tune, but I don't think I could really master the embouchure necessary to play the flute well, and am not really interested in picking up the instrument anyway. Besides, I also play other music styles besides ITM on the fiddle, and my preference is to learn instruments that are versatile in more than one genre.
Maybe I can save llig some typing. Not available on flute: notes below D, double stops, scratch trebles (I think), probably some other stuff I'm not aware of. The fiddle can also play more quietly, I think, because the flute requires a certain minimum amount of air pressure to make a sound. Oh, and pizzicato (plucked notes--including strummed chords, if you're accomplished enough) and very high notes, although those techniques are more "violin" than "fiddle."
I'm sure there's more, and I'm probably wrong about some of it--and that somebody will be along shortly to tear a strip off of me....
fwiw, llig has expressed great admiration for Matt Molloy, and has also said that flute can do all the *important* things that make for a great tune.
Oh yes, I know all about the technical aspects that the fiddle is capable of and the flute is incapable of. (Not sure you caught it in my first post, but I *am* a fiddle player myself). What I'm more interested in is the "great range of stuff [on flute] which is unavailable on the fiddle."
Although it is a good question (the one you actually asked). I also imagined it to be the other way around (i.e., fiddle can do more things than flute).
This isn't so much a matter of "capable", but it does seem that the requirements of breath enforce a completely different phrasing from any other instrument. When I'm an accompanist, I always have more trouble following a flute player than any other instrument.
Then there's also an approach to ornamentation that's mostly technically feasible on the fiddle, but sounds completely its own way on the flute.
Speaking more generally, though, I always think the limitations of an instrument have more interesting effects on the way it's played than its capabilities do.
I play both and there's no doubt in my mind that the fiddle
is the king of instruments. But what string instruments all
lack is the interaction with breath and air shared with singers
and instruments like clarinet and trumpet. Instead of the
plucking, bouncing effects, you get the liquid rush of air and
tremendous accents and volume. On flute and brass instruments
you can get cool multiphonic effects and unique articulation.
On the simple flute you get great popping fingered ornaments.
Playing flute is a very different experience too. There's a more
direct link somehow between you and the instrument. On fiddle
you're thinking of how to use the bow to interpret what you're
imagining, but on the flute you just do it without as much
calculation. Well, that's my experience anyhow having played
winds since age seven.
Gotta love the cranns on the flute(and pipes). Although I think I heard a fiddler once do something similar to a crann. It was like a bouncing triplet or something of that sort. I have no idea about fiddle playing, so please excuse my ignorance if I am mistaken.
"On fiddle. you're thinking of how to use the bow to interpret what you're imagining, but on the flute you just do it without as much
calculation." It will be the other way round for me, of course ... but if anything, that's the answers to the question.
Interesting topic. The music is almost identical on the fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes. But like the dna shared between great apes, this is often not appreciated ... people focus instead on the differences. But as we know, any serious study of chimpanzees reveals a great deal about humans.
I'm very surprised if it's true that folk thing about their bowing while playing. I would imagine that to be akin to thinking about breathing, blowing pressure and ornaments on the flute. But personally I'm thinking of the tune not the technical aspects required.
........ and there is no "king of instruments". Instrument preference is down to how important the attributes of certain instruments. You wouldn't play the fiddles if drones and regs were very important to you. I play GHB which has only a range of an octave and a note, are not chromatic, are in Bb and have no dynamics but their other attributes make it my favourite instrument to listen to or play. To me it's the king of instruments but I would never expect a fiddle player to agree.
A very good guide for a fiddler/violinist for working out the phrasing when learning a tune is to think how a singer or wind player would phrase it. The phrasing is a guide to the bowing. The bowing also controls the dynamics, accents (and some of the ornaments). Bow control is the equivalent of breath control.
A fiddler who does't think about the bowing is liable to run into similar problems to a singer or flute player who doesn't think about breath control - problems from something that doesn't sound quite "right", through "leaves on the line", all the way up to a full-blown train crash.
Having said that, a skilled fiddler who makes a mistake in bowing can usually recover it quickly without it being too obvious.
I wouldn't agree as far as wind players are concerned lazyhound. Yes for a beginner but the blowing and breath control is the most natural thing in the world to an decent player.
I've been playing flute, fiddle, and anglo concertina, all for many years. At times I have neglected one, only to come back at some point to rediscover the different expressive capabilities of each. But there is no doubt in my mind that the fiddle is capable of the most depth and range of expression - even aside from being so ambidextrous (i.e., able to be played in different keys so easily).
I appreciate all three but if I had to stick to just the one it would be the fiddle. Every time I pick it up I discover something new about the music. To quote the late great John Hartford:
Well, I wrote this song
With a vamp in the middle
And I knew when I wrote it
That I wrote it for the fiddle
Play, fiddle, play
All day long I hear you screaming at me....
@bogman, yes, perhaps I should have made that clear - my comment was intended for those on the lower reaches of the learning curve (a PC avoidance of the "b" word )
Just in case that old dreaded 'King of Instruments' bollox takes over here, I'd just like to add my 2 cents worth!
I wonder if it's mostly blokes who respond, when these threads drift towards the infantile ... better than this, better than that, King of Instruments baloney?
This old competition mentality bollox that so many blokes seem to have firmly planted in their DNA I suspect, which has them slavering at the gob, every chance they get to say that such & such is somehow so much better than the other thing .... & for blokes there always has to be a King of this or a King of that!
It seems to me that some little boys just never grow up, do they!
Saying that the Fiddle is the King of all instruments, just because it can do x,y & z is about as daft as saying that a Ferrari is the King of all cars & must somehow be better than all others.
OK it may tick more boxes for some folks, but never, never for all & personally speaking, I'd far rather have a Morris Traveller!
Just imagine what an utter PRAT you'd look, touring the Devon countryside, towing a wee family Caravan for a fortnight, with one of these:
Hey, just imagine if, in years to come, only Fiddles were allowed to play Traditional Irish Music, because this 'Knob for Brains' attitude won the day & decided for us all, that only Fiddles were good enough to play our music!
Oh woe is me!
One of the ways our music is so rich, is of course because of the wonderful diversity of sound we have at our finger tips with the great variety of instruments at our disposal.
Oh & just in case you are in any doubt, about the folly of this nonsense, let's not forget that one of the most boring & annoying sounds in the known universe, is the sound of the Scottish Fiddle Orchestra in full swing!
Try this out for size:
"If we are to achieve a richer musical culture, rich in contrasting sounds, we must recognize the whole gamut of musical potentialities, and so weave a less arbitrary musical fabric, one in which each diverse musical gift will find a fitting place." ..... apologies to Margaret Mead.
Oh & just for the record, yes, I do play the Fiddle too ............ but I like to think my brains aren't in my pants!
Spot on Ptarmigan. If it was simply down to the amount of attributes an instrument had then everybody would learn the same instrument.
Lazyhound, yes I agree with you there. I don't think there is anything wrong with the 'b' word though. I'm a beginner on the flute and yes, I have to constantly thing about the blowing and breathe control as it's the main concern for me, whereas I've been playing whistle for a fair while and just have to think of the tune as the technical side comes mainly naturally now.
I think the OP asked a good question but it carried quite a risk of it descending into "my instrument is better than yours." Put them away, boys. No one wants to see that here.
I'm not going to describe this very well. I'd rather play a bunch of recordings of Harry Bradley, Paul McGlinchey, Conal O'Grada, Paul McGrattan, Matt Molloy, and a few other favourite flute players and say, "Yeah, that." But I'm going to make an attempt to put it into words anyway. There's a way a good flute player can "attack" a note which distinguishes it from fiddle and pipes. There's a breathyness to it, and that ringing hard D, of course. Rolls and cutes and trills have more of an "articulated" sound to them. Also, they can do that between the octaves thing, which I think sounds really cool.
My sense is that the earlier posts in this thread were thinking about "range of stuff" far too superficially. Sure, flutes have a limited range of notes as compared to a fiddle, they can't play as many styles of music, etc. etc. But in terms of their ability to interpret Irish music, they have sounds available to them, some examples of which I listed above, that fiddles don't. Like on any instrument, you can give a tune a whole new meaning by making use of the flute's strengths and turning its limitations to the tune's advantage.
Ptarmigan -- nobody said "only fiddles." And even if one did assert that the fiddle was king, that doesn't infer exclusivity.
On the rocky road to Dublin, so have at it lads....
There are those who will swear blind that a cathedral organ is the King of Instruments. But I have yet to see one in a session or a ceili or at the Fleadh.
@Ptarmi - it's my observation that musical instruments are accorded a status which is based on the degree of complex musical expression that would be potentially obtainable from them in the hands of an experienced and talented player.
To that extent, I think that there is often a kind of observable "pecking order" associated with instruments playing in sessions - with fiddles somewhere near the top, and bodhrans somewhere near the bottom.
Maybe not in your session, but in lots of sessions.
And - given a session which included a brilliant flautist but only a mediocre fiddler, the flute may subliminally be thought of as being "king".
- But the best sessions seem to be the ones where all the musicians have equal playing ability.
And whilst the "my way is better than your way" kind of post to this board may be commonplace, I don't really think that the "king of intruments" statement was intended along those lines in this instance.
And although that statement was opinion, not fact, there is some justification for saying it - after all, in a symphony orchestra the leader of the orchestra is a violinist, not a flautist.
The fiddle also as a greater range of volume than a flute, which gives it a bit of an edge.
At a session, it's much easier to signal an Indication of an impending change to a different tune with a fiddle than it is with a flute, and a fiddler can speak (or sing ;- ) at the same time as playing.
And whilst I have the greatest respect for those north of Hadrian's wall (and an affinity for their music), I too can't stand the sound produced by those Scottish massed fiddle orchestras ....
Yep, the massed fiddle thing is certainly not my cup of tea either. Everything has it's place. For example GHB are rubbish in a session but fiddle wouldn't be very regal in a pipe band and I don't find it very regal in a fiddle orchestra.
As I understood things, Llig already plays viola, so his intention was to learn the flute as an addition to what he already plays. In this context, a statement that the flute does things that the fiddle cannot (true) is perfectly justified and does not imply any infantile judgemental comparison (e.g. "my daddy drives a biger car than yours...."). The fiddle also does things that the flute does not (also true).
In fact, if I recall his statements properly, then he would also like to learn the pipes but is realistic about what he can manage with the time and money available to him. I would like to learn the fiddle too, but I know that flute and pipes are as much as (and more than) I can manage.
Silver spear made a pretty good summary of the main points. And I would back the point made by earlier posters, that the direct connection to the breath of the player (if done right) adds a new aspect of connection between the player and the music. The whole body of the player is involved in the production of the sound and resonates to the notes being produced. This of course leads to the biggest problem flute players have - everyone else hears the flute differently to the way the player does.
And I rarely hear a fiddle going anywhere near the top end of the flute's range (i.e. the upper end of the third octave for most people - the fourth octave gets hairy even for experts). That this range is not used much in this type of music is incidental (I can play to the top B on all my flutes.). The problem of ease of playing in different keys is also solved with the Boehm flute, but that also doesn't really apply to this music or to the simple system flutes.
I would also love to have a few drone notes available for the flute - I guess that would mean flute regulators? Fiddles can achieve a lot of this with double stops and I'm jealous.
I'm also jealous of double stops. I guess that's what regs are for, if one has them I'm also jealous of the flutey playing between the octaves. Flute and fiddle players sometimes express jealousy of my crans and poppy triplets. For me, these are just normal things to do. The grass is always greener.......
Has it occurred to anyone else here that there might be something just as bad as someone declaiming along the lines of "King of" this or "King of" that -
like, maybe WORRYING ABOUT IT?
(of course, I wonder why am worried that you all are worried)
Have fun saving the world, kids.
Don't break anything.
Last one out turn off the lights.
OK, lets take this a step further, in the spirit of good fun (I hope).
Is the tin whistle the court jester of instruments?
And is the bodhran the scullery maid of instruments?
The mind boggles...
the whole body of the fiddle player should be involved, that is why good posture , plus good hand position, good classical bow grip which allows good involvement of the wrist are [imo] an ideal.
the same applies for singers and harmonica players good breath control comes from development of the diaphragm, good breath control in the case of singing prevents the singer from damaging the voice, posture is also important for ALL musicians: check out Alexander Technique
.ALL musicians use their whole body, NOT JUST FLUTE PLAYERS and all musicians should be conscious of good posture.
One of the things that attracted me to this music, Aside from the energy, was the different expressive qualities of each instrument. Either solo or in combination each has a unique nuance to add to the tune. Even, dare I say, the addition of a well played bodhran (one that sounds like a simple goat skin drum) adds a different feel to a tune.
yz, quite right. I don't use a shoulder rest and therefore can feel the vibration of the fiddle on my collar bone. Likewise, I can feel the sound vibration when my chin touches the chin rest. And I can feel the vibration of the sound in the bow stick with my right hand.
Well, if you're going to get really technical about it, bogman, you use your insides to play *every* instrument. Your brain sends signals to your nervous system which cause the muscles and tendons in your arms and hands to move in a certain way.
The parts of the body that are used at the blowing end of the flute are doing things not very different from what they evolved to do and playing flute involves mimicry not too different to the mimicry we use when learning to speak. Does that apply to the bowing end of a fiddle ?
Yes, but I wasn't going to get technical about it TSS.
but what is the great range of stuff unavailable for fiddle that is available for flute?
can someone please answer the question.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by yz
yz - the tactile thing of physical connection to the instrument by breathing through it and using your insides as well as your outsides.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
I wouldn't have answered if I'd remembered who yz was at the time.
Classical bow grip is not necessary, nor even desirable. Control at the frog is not required to play this music. In fact many brilliant fiddlers rarely use any more than the top 40% of the bow's length. None of these fiddlers could play with control at the frog with the bow grip they are using, and your ears should tell you that they are doing it right...
Slightly off-topic I know, I was just disagreeing with the idea that classical technique is ideal for playing this music. In fact, I think classical technique is one of the biggest hindrances encountered by a lot of people attempting to play this music on the fiddle having come from the classical tradition. Silver boehm-system flute players can also experience certain technical problems when they attempt to learn Irish music.
'I think classical technique is one of the biggest hindrances encountered by a lot of people attempting to play this music on the fiddle having come from the classical tradition.'
I think that can be right ... if you've done the classical stuff first and *then* tried to go into trad. I know quite a few people who've *always* done both, and it doesn't seem to be a problem for them. Some of them would be some of the top players.
OK, here goes:
"I love the flute because it's the one instrument in the world where you can feel your own breath. I can feel my breath with my fingers. It's as if I'm speaking from my soul; when I'm making a note, it's the closest thing to singing to me." (http://www.michaelflatley.com/about/bio/1/)
Good quote David. Of course he's wrong about "it's the one instrument in the world where you can feel your own breath", it's ONE of the instruments where you can feel your own breath.
Speaking from an accompanist's point of view, the flute and the fiddle are two of the most awesome instruments on the planet. For all that they are similar in their approach to the music, at some level they are utterly unique in a way that's hard to put into words. Nothing can drive a tune like a well-played flute! And the same can be said for the fiddle!
A tip of the hat to the fine practitioners of both instruments - you are a thrill to play with, the fount that inspires decent accompaniment, and you make all the effort effortless and even more rewarding.
Cheers!
I know what you mean Random, I am always cautious about that. I usually like to sit a a certain angle when I play in order to avoid that. The worst though is getting poked in the face or eye with a fiddle bow.
@ Dragut Reis, http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24880/comments#comment520768
But I'm doing it the other way round - I've gone from trad fiddle to classical violin (still playing the old trad of course). The only difference I'm aware of when playing classical is that I don't use as much vibrato as the other players - I just don't feel that a pervasive vibrato is either necessary or desirable.
"yz, you do not use the inside of your body to play the fiddle."
To prove this we would need to conduct an experiment, I would suggest having someone play a tune on ANY instrument, then, midway through the tune suddenly remove one kidney or some other internal organ, and see if this affects the quality of playing at all. Simple troubleshooting......
I have always been impressed how expressive a good box player can play an instrument that is by its nature fairly rigid, it is remarkable how different ornamentation can make it sound like its pitch is more flexible than it really is. Which is probably why I started playing the box. Now, if only I could do those things that impress me so!
I've often explained to people that one of the differences between uilleann pipes and GHB is that you don't have to breathe.
And then realized that you really do.... Not breathing while trying to play the uilleann pipes would be a short-lived venture. You'd fall over halfway through the B part.
I see now I was wrong, you need breath control for all instruments. .......And I've learned that you need your brain to play music, and that your brain is inside your body. So I reckon the main difference between flute and fiddle is the shape, and sometimes the colour.
All the Trad instruments have their charms. But fiddle can play
in the gutter or the opera and everywhere in between. it doesn't
mean other instruments are not great in their own way though.
Hearing Paddy Keenan in April for many hours in sessions and
concerts was one of the greatest experiences of my life.
Wow, it looks like I really hit the jackpot here as far as responses go! Thanks to all of you for your great comments. They really helped give me some new insight into various instruments' approach to this music.
There are a few individuals that I would like to respond to in particular, which I'll do below...
Thanks a lot for your wise comment refuting the "King of the Instrument" argument! I was in no way interested (nor had even considered) the discussion going down that path, so I appreciate you nipping it in the bud!
Personally, I would tend to agree with those that assert that the fiddle (or violin) has a wider range of expressiveness available to it than the flute. However, in no way does that make one instrument somehow "superior" over the other.
Also, like you said, I'm very grateful for the fact that there *is* a great variety of instruments out there to be played. The world would be so much more boring if fiddles were the only instrument ever played...
Of all the comments about, I think yours (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24880#comment520712) really got at the question I was originally posing. Among other things, I likewise love how the flutes can give a great drive to a tune by pushing the octave, and that would be an example of something a flute can do but a fiddle can't.
I guess my original question comes down to the matter of why would someone choose to pick up (or switch to) a new instrument: is it simply because they like the features of the other instrument, or is it because they feel that their current instrument is holding them back from a higher level of musicality that they could attain on a different instrument? I would tend to think that it is simply the former, but llig leahcim's comment that sparked this thread led me to think otherwise.
So, Michael, would you mind coming out of the closet and answering my question straight up - why are you choosing to pick up the flute?
I did david. It's because the music is almost identical on the fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes. But like the dna shared between great apes, this is often not appreciated ... people focus instead on the differences. But as we know, any serious study of chimpanzees reveals a great deal about humans.
Yes, it's true. Flute's helping me a lot on fiddle even though it steals
time away from it. When I play fiddle now I have a more 'take charge' approach to the bowing and so the rhythm is getting more
punchy, which is where I want to go with it.
@The David Dude - I don't really approve of the title that you selected for this thread - it's just too personal.
Something like: "Why would a musician choose to take up an additional instrument" would have been more appropriate, and might even generate more responses.
If you genuinely want to pose a question to an individual member, why do you not use the inbuilt webmail facility that this site provides?
BTW - just viewed a couple of your youtube videos and enjoyed listening to your solo playing on one of them.
I also read in your profile that you are learning the guitar. If you decide it to use it for ITM, I sincerely hope that you will not adopt the style of the guitarist in the "Midlothian, Texas" clip.
- Excessive synchopation and chop, and also with some unsuitable chords - presumably chosen to add " interest", but in reality are just trampling on the melody.
"I don't see it as the instruments requiring breath control, I see it as the music itself having to breath." - These are two different things Llig, as you know. I appreciate you are looking at the similarities but others were posing the question of what you can get/need from a flute that you don't from a fiddle.
I know that bogman. But I was illustrating that technique in itself doesn't interest me.
However, while the technical differences between flute and fiddle playing have nothing to do with my approach to either instrument, I am interested in how the technical limitations of both people and instruments have shaped the music. For example, certain easy things not being traditionally done on a particular instrument because they are hard on another. These symbioses are important to the music. And while I think I understand the music on the flute pretty well, I'm of the opinion that practice, rather than theory, would be better for me (and more fun, of course).
I would agree the guitar is too choppy Mix, but I think it's unfair to be too critical of players of that age. Trad has so much to do with immersion and experience that unless youngsters are brought up surrounded by trad it's going to take them time. If David and his pals keep at it then it's all there for them.
@bogman - I didn't think that I was being too unfair - after all, I did say in my post that I enjoyed David's fiddle playing on the solo clip. He's good player already for one so young, and with a nice style. The trad world could be his oyster, certainly.
Regarding the guitar playing on the other clip, I note that you neither agreed with or disagreed with my comments about the chords.
But taking the two factors together (excessive chop and choice of chords) it seems to portray a kind of style that's become very commonplace recently. Someone must have initiated that style, and others (thinking it "cool" or trendy) mimic it - so it spreads and becomes self-perpetuating.
My criticism was of the style, rather than of the musician.
"Someone must have initiated that style, and others (thinking it "cool" or trendy) mimic it - so it spreads and becomes self-perpetuating." Isn't that a definition of traditional music?
I think one thing that is interesting with the flute is that taking a breath interrupts the sound so the breathing becomes part of the music. A good flute player can do that in a way that surprises and delights.
Yeah, I guess you're right about the title. Though it is true that my question was rather specifically directed to llig leahcim, I was also interested in hearing others' opinions as well, so that's why I posed it in a public discussion forum. And I'm really grateful that I made that choice, 'cause I've already learned a lot from everyone.
Well, this was disappointing. I had saved this thread for last. I made popcorn and everything, expecting a big knock down, drag out battle. Instead, I get a reasonable discussion involving actual musical thoughts. What is the world coming to? Does anyone want popcorn?
Sorry Michael (the older, that is ) - I saw your comment above, but didn't realize that it was a direct reply to my question. It seemed like it is was more in response to someone else, so I apologize for asking it again, and coming across the way I did.
llig: "Isn't that a definition of traditional music?"
Yes- to a point - If a lot of people saw shakey eggs being played at sessions and subsequently bought ones themselves to play at sessions that would be self-perpetuating.
But it probably wouldn't gain sufficient acceptance for shakey egg playing to be uninversally regarded as being "traditional" ....
All the good discussions such as "how many people who are members here can play a tune" are deleted SWFL ,giving the misrepresentation that this is a site for "reasonable discussion involving actual musical thoughts" which aren't nearly as fun as a "big knock down, drag out battle."
David - most folks would just phrase their thread title in general terms, then (if wanting to prompt comment from a specific member) post a comment e.g.
...and as far as bowing/breathing goes. I would imagine breathing on the flute is like bowing on the fiddle. Eventually you've done it so many times that your 'thinking' about it all happens at a subconscious and intuitive level. That's a part of learning the instrument in question, becoming truly at home or comfortable with the instrument, so that you don't need to think deeply on it at all times, but instead you simply do it.
I find usually that when I'm in the zone and I'm playing that I just play music. I'm not constantly thinking about bow this or finger that. I'm concentrating on the tune I'm playing, the sound I'm making, and the sound of 'us' collectively as we're playing.
That the flute may feel more like a part of a person than another instrument is a fallacy, I'd wager that it's just a function of familiarity with the instrument. Any instrument can feel like a part of you if you have spent the time and effort with it.
For example, that whole business with boxes and concertinas, how the same button is two different notes, depending on whether you are pushing or pulling? That's insane to me, but for a long time (and competent!) player of one of those instruments, it's not, they just do it.
All tunes are composed by someone, and if that someone is a player of that particular instrument, chances are that they are composing it with that particular instrument in mind. You *could* play it using a different instrument, but it might not sound as well.
Here's an example (albeit not an ITM one) - In particular, the second tune in - the Black Bear:
Was someone saying that the flute may feel more like a part of a person than another instrument SWFL ? (I may have missed it). I regard it more as a-more-or-less inert chunk of material that someone has made the right shape to help me try to make the air do things. It doesn't feel any more part of me than a familar knife and fork.
"Well, this was disappointing. I had saved this thread for last. I made popcorn and everything, expecting a big knock down, drag out battle. Instead, I get a reasonable discussion involving actual musical thoughts. What is the world coming to? Does anyone want popcorn?"
Ha ha Swiffle! I was wondering what sort of interest I would get from long-time contributors with the title I picked!
Are not the pipes more of a part of you? I mean, you're bloody well strapped into the things and can watch enviously as the other musicians rest their instruments on the table when they go to the loo or the bar, and there you are wearing the thing and disentangling yourself is a big faff.
There is nothing deeper, nor more primal or spiritual than the breath.
I had a teacher once who encouraged me to breathe a certain way with my bowing, but still, while fiddle music is coming from within, it's still wood and hair that's making the sound.
The SS: Yes. Anything requiring you to look like an extra from The Borg in Star Trek wins.
sara: Good advice, but that don't mean it's better. Careful, or Mr. P will come back and lash out about these fluteocentric types thinking that The Flute is the King of Instruments!
Thanks a lot for your kind comments on my playing! I'm planning on uploading some new videos soon, which should hopefully mark my improvement over the past six months (a long time for a 16-year-old musician!).
I watched that clip again on my YouTube page, and agree that my friend was choosing some more contemporary rhythms and chords on the guitar. However, having played with him regularly for quite a while, I can assert that that is not the only way he accompanies that tune, and that his style as a whole is certainly not accurately represented by that single clip. Perhaps you might like some of these other clips better?
Personally, I like his style and appreciative the creativity he brings to our band. As a group, I don't think we're trying to be strictly traditional, but rather are trying to make good music that is interesting for audiences and a pleasure for us to play. So I don't mind the contemporary influences here and there, so long as it is still musical and doesn't depart too far from trad.
Maybe this is a little off-topic, but I'd still be interested in hearing more of your opinion.
Generally good stuff. I particularly liked the slow reel Hut on Staffin Island. I had the feeling that some of the phrasing suffered on the fast reels. A bit more attention to the shape of the phrase and playing just a hair slower might give more definition to the tunes and help the band stay exactly together. At the fast tempo you were playing you tended to get just a tiny bit out of synch.
The fast strum accentuates the flat phrasing and reminds me of the style of old time breakdowns played for square dances which are not carefully phrased with the music. That dance setting calls for very fast, very even playing. This is in contrast to New England contra, which needs a well marked phrase and (often) subphrase, thus calling for more "drops and raises".
Most of the ITM reels I prefer lie between these two extremes. That said, what I prefer are jigs, hornpipes, clogs, slip jigs, strathspeys, and 3-2 tunes.
@David Dude - you don't need any "kind complements" from me, or indeed anyone else. You are already a good player and - judging from the solo playing clip - are developing a nice traditional style. I wish you well.
As requested, I've listened to both clips.
In respect of the first clip (reels) I thought the chords were spot-on and perfectly in keeping with the mode.
The sound quality of the second clip is not so good, and it's difficult to tell - perhaps drifting away a liitle from the traditional in the second tune.
Regarding rhythm, still a little too much "chop" in both clips for my taste - but others may well disagree ... !
I would be very interested to see what your guy does with Kerry polkas. That's where synchopation is important. It never ceases to amaze me the number of guitarists who don't notice the synchopated bits of polkas, and play them "straight", all the way through!
Tradition v Creativity
---------------------------
Have a listen to these musicians. Plenty of creativity (if you listen carefully) - and yet perfectly in keeping with "the tradition"
All the instruments come across equally, with no single instrument dictating the style. Not only that, you can hear each instrument individually, but also as part of the whole.
This doesn't always happen in a session situation, but when it does, it's just magic!
"sara: Good advice, but that don't mean it's better. Careful, or Mr. P will come back and lash out about these fluteocentric types thinking that The Flute is the King of Instruments! "
oh, I wasn't even thinking along those lines, i.e. better or worse; simply an observation. For me, fiddle is better, because I can make some degree of music with it. Never could get a sound out of a flute, you know, the sideways kind.
Maybe that's part of it, too. It depends on what you're in love with. I'm in love with strings, always have been. I appreciate and enjoy - and even love- the sound of a well-played flute or whistle, but it's not my love.
@ Jwalkert: I can tell you this, if it's not a surname spelled backwards then it's a Welsh word, and "LL" in Welsh is a sort of whispered "L" (you blow down one side of your mouth as you say it).
As stated above, argentinian pronunciation of the letters "LL" would be similar to the "si" sound in the english word "vision".
This would make "llig" sound suspiciously like the name of our old friend "Jig" (he of the many pseudonyms).
Could it be one and the same person ? Or is all this getting much too Bletchley Park ?
Reminds me of a cartoon: A man selling pencils on a street corner, wearing a sign that reads: Former Poofreader
As for pronouncing the Welsh double-ell... I was told it helps to think of Donald Duck's temper tantrums. (Mae'n ddrwg gen i... don't kill the messenger!)
Jwalkert, I was just making a joke about your spelling of the word "detctive" but after seeing it spelled so many different ways on that youtube site, perhaps the joke is on me! We have met the anime...
Question for Llig
Question for Llig
...and, no, I am NOT trying to start a fight!
I was reading some of your comments in the previous thread about whether or not the low whistle is a transitional instrument to flute, and you mentioned that you would like to pick up the flute because of the "great range of stuff which is unavailable on the fiddle." What exactly do you mean by that? Of course each instrument has their own idiosyncrasies, and a flute will obviously create lift in a different way than a fiddle, but how is it that the inverse of your statement is not true - that the fiddle doesn't have a great range of stuff that is unavailable to the flute?
I'm curious to hear yours and others opinion on the matter. Personally, I really enjoy listening to good flute players, especially when they give great lift to the tune, but I don't think I could really master the embouchure necessary to play the flute well, and am not really interested in picking up the instrument anyway. Besides, I also play other music styles besides ITM on the fiddle, and my preference is to learn instruments that are versatile in more than one genre.
-- David
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by The David Dude
Re: Question for Llig
Maybe I can save llig some typing. Not available on flute: notes below D, double stops, scratch trebles (I think), probably some other stuff I'm not aware of. The fiddle can also play more quietly, I think, because the flute requires a certain minimum amount of air pressure to make a sound. Oh, and pizzicato (plucked notes--including strummed chords, if you're accomplished enough) and very high notes, although those techniques are more "violin" than "fiddle."
I'm sure there's more, and I'm probably wrong about some of it--and that somebody will be along shortly to tear a strip off of me....
fwiw, llig has expressed great admiration for Matt Molloy, and has also said that flute can do all the *important* things that make for a great tune.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by John Galt
Re: Question for Llig
Oh yes, and bowed chords:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0-UjUto2_8
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by John Galt
Re: Question for Llig
Oh yes, I know all about the technical aspects that the fiddle is capable of and the flute is incapable of. (Not sure you caught it in my first post, but I *am* a fiddle player myself). What I'm more interested in is the "great range of stuff [on flute] which is unavailable on the fiddle."
Sorry if I wasn't clear in my original post.
-- David
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by The David Dude
Re: Question for Llig
Oops, sorry, my bad. How embarrassing. Never mind.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by John Galt
Re: Question for Llig
Although it is a good question (the one you actually asked). I also imagined it to be the other way around (i.e., fiddle can do more things than flute).
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by John Galt
Re: Question for Llig
This isn't so much a matter of "capable", but it does seem that the requirements of breath enforce a completely different phrasing from any other instrument. When I'm an accompanist, I always have more trouble following a flute player than any other instrument.
Then there's also an approach to ornamentation that's mostly technically feasible on the fiddle, but sounds completely its own way on the flute.
Speaking more generally, though, I always think the limitations of an instrument have more interesting effects on the way it's played than its capabilities do.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Question for Llig
I play both and there's no doubt in my mind that the fiddle
is the king of instruments. But what string instruments all
lack is the interaction with breath and air shared with singers
and instruments like clarinet and trumpet. Instead of the
plucking, bouncing effects, you get the liquid rush of air and
tremendous accents and volume. On flute and brass instruments
you can get cool multiphonic effects and unique articulation.
On the simple flute you get great popping fingered ornaments.
Playing flute is a very different experience too. There's a more
direct link somehow between you and the instrument. On fiddle
you're thinking of how to use the bow to interpret what you're
imagining, but on the flute you just do it without as much
calculation. Well, that's my experience anyhow having played
winds since age seven.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Hup
Re: Question for Llig
Gotta love the cranns on the flute(and pipes). Although I think I heard a fiddler once do something similar to a crann. It was like a bouncing triplet or something of that sort. I have no idea about fiddle playing, so please excuse my ignorance if I am mistaken.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by pipersgrip
Re: Question for Llig
"On fiddle. you're thinking of how to use the bow to interpret what you're imagining, but on the flute you just do it without as much
calculation." It will be the other way round for me, of course ... but if anything, that's the answers to the question.
Interesting topic. The music is almost identical on the fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes. But like the dna shared between great apes, this is often not appreciated ... people focus instead on the differences. But as we know, any serious study of chimpanzees reveals a great deal about humans.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by ...
Re: Question for Llig
I'm very surprised if it's true that folk thing about their bowing while playing. I would imagine that to be akin to thinking about breathing, blowing pressure and ornaments on the flute. But personally I'm thinking of the tune not the technical aspects required.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
........ and there is no "king of instruments". Instrument preference is down to how important the attributes of certain instruments. You wouldn't play the fiddles if drones and regs were very important to you. I play GHB which has only a range of an octave and a note, are not chromatic, are in Bb and have no dynamics but their other attributes make it my favourite instrument to listen to or play. To me it's the king of instruments but I would never expect a fiddle player to agree.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
A very good guide for a fiddler/violinist for working out the phrasing when learning a tune is to think how a singer or wind player would phrase it. The phrasing is a guide to the bowing. The bowing also controls the dynamics, accents (and some of the ornaments). Bow control is the equivalent of breath control.
A fiddler who does't think about the bowing is liable to run into similar problems to a singer or flute player who doesn't think about breath control - problems from something that doesn't sound quite "right", through "leaves on the line", all the way up to a full-blown train crash.
Having said that, a skilled fiddler who makes a mistake in bowing can usually recover it quickly without it being too obvious.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Question for Llig
I wouldn't agree as far as wind players are concerned lazyhound. Yes for a beginner but the blowing and breath control is the most natural thing in the world to an decent player.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Expression
I've been playing flute, fiddle, and anglo concertina, all for many years. At times I have neglected one, only to come back at some point to rediscover the different expressive capabilities of each. But there is no doubt in my mind that the fiddle is capable of the most depth and range of expression - even aside from being so ambidextrous (i.e., able to be played in different keys so easily).
I appreciate all three but if I had to stick to just the one it would be the fiddle. Every time I pick it up I discover something new about the music. To quote the late great John Hartford:
Well, I wrote this song
With a vamp in the middle
And I knew when I wrote it
That I wrote it for the fiddle
Play, fiddle, play
All day long I hear you screaming at me....
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by David Levine
Re: Question for Llig
@bogman, yes, perhaps I should have made that clear - my comment was intended for those on the lower reaches of the learning curve (a PC avoidance of the "b" word
)
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Question for Llig
Just in case that old dreaded 'King of Instruments' bollox takes over here, I'd just like to add my 2 cents worth!
I wonder if it's mostly blokes who respond, when these threads drift towards the infantile ... better than this, better than that, King of Instruments baloney?
This old competition mentality bollox that so many blokes seem to have firmly planted in their DNA I suspect, which has them slavering at the gob, every chance they get to say that such & such is somehow so much better than the other thing .... & for blokes there always has to be a King of this or a King of that!
It seems to me that some little boys just never grow up, do they!
Saying that the Fiddle is the King of all instruments, just because it can do x,y & z is about as daft as saying that a Ferrari is the King of all cars & must somehow be better than all others.
OK it may tick more boxes for some folks, but never, never for all & personally speaking, I'd far rather have a Morris Traveller!
Just imagine what an utter PRAT you'd look, touring the Devon countryside, towing a wee family Caravan for a fortnight, with one of these:
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/ImgGalleryTn/10/42710/2054_4410.jpg
Hey, just imagine if, in years to come, only Fiddles were allowed to play Traditional Irish Music, because this 'Knob for Brains' attitude won the day & decided for us all, that only Fiddles were good enough to play our music!
Oh woe is me!
One of the ways our music is so rich, is of course because of the wonderful diversity of sound we have at our finger tips with the great variety of instruments at our disposal.
Oh & just in case you are in any doubt, about the folly of this nonsense, let's not forget that one of the most boring & annoying sounds in the known universe, is the sound of the Scottish Fiddle Orchestra in full swing!
Try this out for size:
"If we are to achieve a richer musical culture, rich in contrasting sounds, we must recognize the whole gamut of musical potentialities, and so weave a less arbitrary musical fabric, one in which each diverse musical gift will find a fitting place." ..... apologies to Margaret Mead.
Oh & just for the record, yes, I do play the Fiddle too ............ but I like to think my brains aren't in my pants!
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: Question for Llig
Spot on Ptarmigan. If it was simply down to the amount of attributes an instrument had then everybody would learn the same instrument.
Lazyhound, yes I agree with you there. I don't think there is anything wrong with the 'b' word though. I'm a beginner on the flute and yes, I have to constantly thing about the blowing and breathe control as it's the main concern for me, whereas I've been playing whistle for a fair while and just have to think of the tune as the technical side comes mainly naturally now.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
Brilliant Ptarmy and applicable to more then just music to my way of thinking!
All the best!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by ejsant
Re: Question for Llig
Well said, Ptarmy.
I think the OP asked a good question but it carried quite a risk of it descending into "my instrument is better than yours." Put them away, boys. No one wants to see that here.
I'm not going to describe this very well. I'd rather play a bunch of recordings of Harry Bradley, Paul McGlinchey, Conal O'Grada, Paul McGrattan, Matt Molloy, and a few other favourite flute players and say, "Yeah, that." But I'm going to make an attempt to put it into words anyway. There's a way a good flute player can "attack" a note which distinguishes it from fiddle and pipes. There's a breathyness to it, and that ringing hard D, of course. Rolls and cutes and trills have more of an "articulated" sound to them. Also, they can do that between the octaves thing, which I think sounds really cool.
My sense is that the earlier posts in this thread were thinking about "range of stuff" far too superficially. Sure, flutes have a limited range of notes as compared to a fiddle, they can't play as many styles of music, etc. etc. But in terms of their ability to interpret Irish music, they have sounds available to them, some examples of which I listed above, that fiddles don't. Like on any instrument, you can give a tune a whole new meaning by making use of the flute's strengths and turning its limitations to the tune's advantage.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Shooting at straw men....
Ptarmigan -- nobody said "only fiddles." And even if one did assert that the fiddle was king, that doesn't infer exclusivity.
On the rocky road to Dublin, so have at it lads....
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by David Levine
Re: Question for Llig
Hup did say, "I play both and there's no doubt in my mind that the fiddle
is the king of instruments."
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Question for Llig
There are those who will swear blind that a cathedral organ is the King of Instruments. But I have yet to see one in a session or a ceili or at the Fleadh.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Question for Llig
It would be funny trying to cram one of those into Sandy Bells.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Question for Llig
@Ptarmi - it's my observation that musical instruments are accorded a status which is based on the degree of complex musical expression that would be potentially obtainable from them in the hands of an experienced and talented player.
To that extent, I think that there is often a kind of observable "pecking order" associated with instruments playing in sessions - with fiddles somewhere near the top, and bodhrans somewhere near the bottom.
Maybe not in your session, but in lots of sessions.
And - given a session which included a brilliant flautist but only a mediocre fiddler, the flute may subliminally be thought of as being "king".
- But the best sessions seem to be the ones where all the musicians have equal playing ability.
And whilst the "my way is better than your way" kind of post to this board may be commonplace, I don't really think that the "king of intruments" statement was intended along those lines in this instance.
And although that statement was opinion, not fact, there is some justification for saying it - after all, in a symphony orchestra the leader of the orchestra is a violinist, not a flautist.
The fiddle also as a greater range of volume than a flute, which gives it a bit of an edge.
At a session, it's much easier to signal an Indication of an impending change to a different tune with a fiddle than it is with a flute, and a fiddler can speak (or sing ;- ) at the same time as playing.
And whilst I have the greatest respect for those north of Hadrian's wall (and an affinity for their music), I too can't stand the sound produced by those Scottish massed fiddle orchestras ....
But I would guess that some folks might like it!
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
@bogman - if the pipes are "king" in a Scottish pipe band, would the set played by the pipe major be the "emperor"
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
but what is the great range of stuff unavailable for fiddle that is available for flute?
can someone please answer the question.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Question for Llig
Yep, the massed fiddle thing is certainly not my cup of tea either. Everything has it's place. For example GHB are rubbish in a session but fiddle wouldn't be very regal in a pipe band and I don't find it very regal in a fiddle orchestra.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
yz - the tactile thing of physical connection to the instrument by breathing through it and using your insides as well as your outsides.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
As I understood things, Llig already plays viola, so his intention was to learn the flute as an addition to what he already plays. In this context, a statement that the flute does things that the fiddle cannot (true) is perfectly justified and does not imply any infantile judgemental comparison (e.g. "my daddy drives a biger car than yours...."). The fiddle also does things that the flute does not (also true).
In fact, if I recall his statements properly, then he would also like to learn the pipes but is realistic about what he can manage with the time and money available to him. I would like to learn the fiddle too, but I know that flute and pipes are as much as (and more than) I can manage.
Silver spear made a pretty good summary of the main points. And I would back the point made by earlier posters, that the direct connection to the breath of the player (if done right) adds a new aspect of connection between the player and the music. The whole body of the player is involved in the production of the sound and resonates to the notes being produced. This of course leads to the biggest problem flute players have - everyone else hears the flute differently to the way the player does.
And I rarely hear a fiddle going anywhere near the top end of the flute's range (i.e. the upper end of the third octave for most people - the fourth octave gets hairy even for experts). That this range is not used much in this type of music is incidental (I can play to the top B on all my flutes.). The problem of ease of playing in different keys is also solved with the Boehm flute, but that also doesn't really apply to this music or to the simple system flutes.
I would also love to have a few drone notes available for the flute - I guess that would mean flute regulators? Fiddles can achieve a lot of this with double stops and I'm jealous.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Crackpot
Re: Question for Llig
I'm also jealous of double stops. I guess that's what regs are for, if one has them I'm also jealous of the flutey playing between the octaves. Flute and fiddle players sometimes express jealousy of my crans and poppy triplets. For me, these are just normal things to do. The grass is always greener.......
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Question for Llig
Just my two cents:
Has it occurred to anyone else here that there might be something just as bad as someone declaiming along the lines of "King of" this or "King of" that -
like, maybe WORRYING ABOUT IT?
(of course, I wonder why am worried that you all are worried)
Have fun saving the world, kids.
Don't break anything.
Last one out turn off the lights.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Piece
Re: Question for Llig
OK, lets take this a step further, in the spirit of good fun (I hope).
Is the tin whistle the court jester of instruments?
And is the bodhran the scullery maid of instruments?
The mind boggles...
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Question for Llig
No, my granny was a scullery maid and she was well liked and popular, and she didn't sound like a bag of tatties being poured down a stair.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
The tin whistle is the crown prince. And the bodhran is the miserable hunchback of the jailor who scowls the dungeons torturing the innocent.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by ...
Re: Question for Llig
So I suppose the spoons would be the drooling idiot begging for swipes and swills from the abandoned cups after the banquet is over?
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Question for Llig
the whole body of the fiddle player should be involved, that is why good posture , plus good hand position, good classical bow grip which allows good involvement of the wrist are [imo] an ideal.
the same applies for singers and harmonica players good breath control comes from development of the diaphragm, good breath control in the case of singing prevents the singer from damaging the voice, posture is also important for ALL musicians: check out Alexander Technique
.ALL musicians use their whole body, NOT JUST FLUTE PLAYERS and all musicians should be conscious of good posture.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Question for Llig
One of the things that attracted me to this music, Aside from the energy, was the different expressive qualities of each instrument. Either solo or in combination each has a unique nuance to add to the tune. Even, dare I say, the addition of a well played bodhran (one that sounds like a simple goat skin drum) adds a different feel to a tune.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by shanty
Re: Question for Llig
yz, quite right. I don't use a shoulder rest and therefore can feel the vibration of the fiddle on my collar bone. Likewise, I can feel the sound vibration when my chin touches the chin rest. And I can feel the vibration of the sound in the bow stick with my right hand.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Question for Llig
yz, you do not use the inside of your body to play the fiddle.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
yes you do, your brain, and your soul, that comes from inside you.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Question for Llig
I mean physically, obviously.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
Well, if you're going to get really technical about it, bogman, you use your insides to play *every* instrument.
Your brain sends signals to your nervous system which cause the muscles and tendons in your arms and hands to move in a certain way.
:P
But I know what you meant.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Question for Llig
The parts of the body that are used at the blowing end of the flute are doing things not very different from what they evolved to do and playing flute involves mimicry not too different to the mimicry we use when learning to speak. Does that apply to the bowing end of a fiddle ?
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by David50
Re: Question for Llig
And thats without bringing singing into ,and that seem a fairly universal human activity.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by David50
Re: Question for Llig
Yes, but I wasn't going to get technical about it TSS.
but what is the great range of stuff unavailable for fiddle that is available for flute?
can someone please answer the question.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by yz
yz - the tactile thing of physical connection to the instrument by breathing through it and using your insides as well as your outsides.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
I wouldn't have answered if I'd remembered who yz was at the time.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
x post, sorry david.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
Classical bow grip is not necessary, nor even desirable. Control at the frog is not required to play this music. In fact many brilliant fiddlers rarely use any more than the top 40% of the bow's length. None of these fiddlers could play with control at the frog with the bow grip they are using, and your ears should tell you that they are doing it right...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_1HYTDu1ik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHqFlS3gNMs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W8zo8WvOcU
Likewise, an arched left-hand grip isn't required, particularly for those with large hands.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Question for Llig
Slightly off-topic I know, I was just disagreeing with the idea that classical technique is ideal for playing this music. In fact, I think classical technique is one of the biggest hindrances encountered by a lot of people attempting to play this music on the fiddle having come from the classical tradition. Silver boehm-system flute players can also experience certain technical problems when they attempt to learn Irish music.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Question for Llig
'I think classical technique is one of the biggest hindrances encountered by a lot of people attempting to play this music on the fiddle having come from the classical tradition.'
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Dragut Reis
I agree with that statement.
Wholeheartedly.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by biggus dave
Re: Question for Llig
I think that can be right ... if you've done the classical stuff first and *then* tried to go into trad. I know quite a few people who've *always* done both, and it doesn't seem to be a problem for them. Some of them would be some of the top players.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Question for Llig
OK, here goes:
"I love the flute because it's the one instrument in the world where you can feel your own breath. I can feel my breath with my fingers. It's as if I'm speaking from my soul; when I'm making a note, it's the closest thing to singing to me." (http://www.michaelflatley.com/about/bio/1/)
Nice day, I'm off outside for a beer...
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by David50
Re: Question for Llig
Good quote David. Of course he's wrong about "it's the one instrument in the world where you can feel your own breath", it's ONE of the instruments where you can feel your own breath.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
Speaking from an accompanist's point of view, the flute and the fiddle are two of the most awesome instruments on the planet. For all that they are similar in their approach to the music, at some level they are utterly unique in a way that's hard to put into words. Nothing can drive a tune like a well-played flute! And the same can be said for the fiddle!
A tip of the hat to the fine practitioners of both instruments - you are a thrill to play with, the fount that inspires decent accompaniment, and you make all the effort effortless and even more rewarding.
Cheers!
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by StringTheory
Re: Question for Llig
As much as I love feeling my breath under my finger I always have to be careful so my neighbour doesn't feel my drops on their knee.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Question for Llig
I know what you mean Random, I am always cautious about that. I usually like to sit a a certain angle when I play in order to avoid that. The worst though is getting poked in the face or eye with a fiddle bow.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by pipersgrip
Re: Question for Llig
Fiddles on the left, flutes on the right...
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Crackpot
Re: Question for Llig
@ Dragut Reis, http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24880/comments#comment520768
But I'm doing it the other way round - I've gone from trad fiddle to classical violin (still playing the old trad of course). The only difference I'm aware of when playing classical is that I don't use as much vibrato as the other players - I just don't feel that a pervasive vibrato is either necessary or desirable.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Question for Llig
"yz, you do not use the inside of your body to play the fiddle."
To prove this we would need to conduct an experiment, I would suggest having someone play a tune on ANY instrument, then, midway through the tune suddenly remove one kidney or some other internal organ, and see if this affects the quality of playing at all. Simple troubleshooting......
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: Question for Llig
.. or you could see how long a fiddler can maintain quality playing without breathing ...
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by cStu
Re: Question for Llig
I have always been impressed how expressive a good box player can play an instrument that is by its nature fairly rigid, it is remarkable how different ornamentation can make it sound like its pitch is more flexible than it really is. Which is probably why I started playing the box. Now, if only I could do those things that impress me so!
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Question for Llig
I've often explained to people that one of the differences between uilleann pipes and GHB is that you don't have to breathe.
And then realized that you really do.... Not breathing while trying to play the uilleann pipes would be a short-lived venture. You'd fall over halfway through the B part.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Question for Llig
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
Maybe these are some of the techniques that Llig thinks are available to the flute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59ZX5qdIEB0
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: Question for Llig
I don't see it as the instruments requiring breath control, I see it as the music itself having to breath.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by ...
Re: Question for Llig
Deep........
But that's still pretty cool what he's doing.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: Question for Llig
All the Trad instruments have their charms. But fiddle can play
in the gutter or the opera and everywhere in between. it doesn't
mean other instruments are not great in their own way though.
Hearing Paddy Keenan in April for many hours in sessions and
concerts was one of the greatest experiences of my life.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Hup
Re: Question for Llig
Wow, it looks like I really hit the jackpot here as far as responses go! Thanks to all of you for your great comments. They really helped give me some new insight into various instruments' approach to this music.
There are a few individuals that I would like to respond to in particular, which I'll do below...
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by The David Dude
Re: Question for Llig
Ptarmigan,
Thanks a lot for your wise comment refuting the "King of the Instrument" argument! I was in no way interested (nor had even considered) the discussion going down that path, so I appreciate you nipping it in the bud!
Personally, I would tend to agree with those that assert that the fiddle (or violin) has a wider range of expressiveness available to it than the flute. However, in no way does that make one instrument somehow "superior" over the other.
Also, like you said, I'm very grateful for the fact that there *is* a great variety of instruments out there to be played. The world would be so much more boring if fiddles were the only instrument ever played...
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by The David Dude
Re: Question for Llig
TheSilverSpear,
Of all the comments about, I think yours (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24880#comment520712) really got at the question I was originally posing. Among other things, I likewise love how the flutes can give a great drive to a tune by pushing the octave, and that would be an example of something a flute can do but a fiddle can't.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by The David Dude
Re: Question for Llig
I guess my original question comes down to the matter of why would someone choose to pick up (or switch to) a new instrument: is it simply because they like the features of the other instrument, or is it because they feel that their current instrument is holding them back from a higher level of musicality that they could attain on a different instrument? I would tend to think that it is simply the former, but llig leahcim's comment that sparked this thread led me to think otherwise.
So, Michael, would you mind coming out of the closet and answering my question straight up - why are you choosing to pick up the flute?
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by The David Dude
Re: Question for Llig
I did david. It's because the music is almost identical on the fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes. But like the dna shared between great apes, this is often not appreciated ... people focus instead on the differences. But as we know, any serious study of chimpanzees reveals a great deal about humans.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by ...
Re: Question for Llig
Yes, it's true. Flute's helping me a lot on fiddle even though it steals
time away from it. When I play fiddle now I have a more 'take charge' approach to the bowing and so the rhythm is getting more
punchy, which is where I want to go with it.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Hup
Re: Question for Llig
@The David Dude - I don't really approve of the title that you selected for this thread - it's just too personal.
Something like: "Why would a musician choose to take up an additional instrument" would have been more appropriate, and might even generate more responses.
If you genuinely want to pose a question to an individual member, why do you not use the inbuilt webmail facility that this site provides?
BTW - just viewed a couple of your youtube videos and enjoyed listening to your solo playing on one of them.
I also read in your profile that you are learning the guitar. If you decide it to use it for ITM, I sincerely hope that you will not adopt the style of the guitarist in the "Midlothian, Texas" clip.
- Excessive synchopation and chop, and also with some unsuitable chords - presumably chosen to add " interest", but in reality are just trampling on the melody.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
"I don't see it as the instruments requiring breath control, I see it as the music itself having to breath." - These are two different things Llig, as you know. I appreciate you are looking at the similarities but others were posing the question of what you can get/need from a flute that you don't from a fiddle.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
I know that bogman. But I was illustrating that technique in itself doesn't interest me.
However, while the technical differences between flute and fiddle playing have nothing to do with my approach to either instrument, I am interested in how the technical limitations of both people and instruments have shaped the music. For example, certain easy things not being traditionally done on a particular instrument because they are hard on another. These symbioses are important to the music. And while I think I understand the music on the flute pretty well, I'm of the opinion that practice, rather than theory, would be better for me (and more fun, of course).
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by ...
Re: Question for Mix O
ha ha ... you're just jealous.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by ...
Re: Question for Llig
"others were posing the question of what you can get/need from a flute that you don't from a fiddle"
well you get a different sound
-that in my opinion is the main thing you get from them that stands out
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Question for Llig
@ llig: "just jealous"????? - I don't even use a guitar for ITM!
But I would though be interested to hear your (considered) comment on the guitar playing in the youtube clip to which I referred:
http://www.youtube.com/user/misterdaviddude
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
Ha, yeah, I'll but that ... you get a different sound. That is indeed the biggest difference by a long long way.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by ...
Re: Question for Llig
I would agree the guitar is too choppy Mix, but I think it's unfair to be too critical of players of that age. Trad has so much to do with immersion and experience that unless youngsters are brought up surrounded by trad it's going to take them time. If David and his pals keep at it then it's all there for them.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
@bogman - I didn't think that I was being too unfair - after all, I did say in my post that I enjoyed David's fiddle playing on the solo clip. He's good player already for one so young, and with a nice style. The trad world could be his oyster, certainly.
Regarding the guitar playing on the other clip, I note that you neither agreed with or disagreed with my comments about the chords.
But taking the two factors together (excessive chop and choice of chords) it seems to portray a kind of style that's become very commonplace recently. Someone must have initiated that style, and others (thinking it "cool" or trendy) mimic it - so it spreads and becomes self-perpetuating.
My criticism was of the style, rather than of the musician.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
Fair enough mix, I agree with you.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Question for Llig
I just noticed the comment below the title -
"The young players teach the old hands how it should be done. Bravo!"
Yeah, right.
But not really all that surprising comment.
My sympathies.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Piece
Re: Question for Llig
Look, this here is a question for llig
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Question for Llig
"Someone must have initiated that style, and others (thinking it "cool" or trendy) mimic it - so it spreads and becomes self-perpetuating." Isn't that a definition of traditional music?
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by ...
Re: Question for Llig
I must say, it is starting to bug me a bit. I glance at the mustard screen and keep thinking I'm being asked questions all the time.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by ...
Re: Question for Premierflute
Q: what do you think of flutes?
Premierflute: depends on the flautist, but generally I give the thumbs up
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Question for any fecker out there except me
I like flutes too
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by ...
Re: Question for Llig
I think one thing that is interesting with the flute is that taking a breath interrupts the sound so the breathing becomes part of the music. A good flute player can do that in a way that surprises and delights.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by sbhikes
Re: Question for Llig
@Mix O'Lydian
Yeah, I guess you're right about the title. Though it is true that my question was rather specifically directed to llig leahcim, I was also interested in hearing others' opinions as well, so that's why I posed it in a public discussion forum. And I'm really grateful that I made that choice, 'cause I've already learned a lot from everyone.
Oh well, next time I'll choose a better name...
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by The David Dude
Re: Question for Llig
Well, this was disappointing. I had saved this thread for last. I made popcorn and everything, expecting a big knock down, drag out battle. Instead, I get a reasonable discussion involving actual musical thoughts. What is the world coming to? Does anyone want popcorn?
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Question for Llig
Sorry Michael (the older, that is
) - I saw your comment above, but didn't realize that it was a direct reply to my question. It seemed like it is was more in response to someone else, so I apologize for asking it again, and coming across the way I did.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by The David Dude
Re: Question for Llig
llig: "Isn't that a definition of traditional music?"
Yes- to a point - If a lot of people saw shakey eggs being played at sessions and subsequently bought ones themselves to play at sessions that would be self-perpetuating.
But it probably wouldn't gain sufficient acceptance for shakey egg playing to be uninversally regarded as being "traditional" ....
... at least, I hope not!
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
All the good discussions such as "how many people who are members here can play a tune" are deleted SWFL ,giving the misrepresentation that this is a site for "reasonable discussion involving actual musical thoughts" which aren't nearly as fun as a "big knock down, drag out battle."
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Question for Llig
David - most folks would just phrase their thread title in general terms, then (if wanting to prompt comment from a specific member) post a comment e.g.
@The David Dude - what are your thoughts on this?
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
A shame, isn't it?
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Question for Llig
Dude
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Question for Llig
...and as far as bowing/breathing goes. I would imagine breathing on the flute is like bowing on the fiddle. Eventually you've done it so many times that your 'thinking' about it all happens at a subconscious and intuitive level. That's a part of learning the instrument in question, becoming truly at home or comfortable with the instrument, so that you don't need to think deeply on it at all times, but instead you simply do it.
I find usually that when I'm in the zone and I'm playing that I just play music. I'm not constantly thinking about bow this or finger that. I'm concentrating on the tune I'm playing, the sound I'm making, and the sound of 'us' collectively as we're playing.
That the flute may feel more like a part of a person than another instrument is a fallacy, I'd wager that it's just a function of familiarity with the instrument. Any instrument can feel like a part of you if you have spent the time and effort with it.
For example, that whole business with boxes and concertinas, how the same button is two different notes, depending on whether you are pushing or pulling? That's insane to me, but for a long time (and competent!) player of one of those instruments, it's not, they just do it.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Question for Llig
... to digress to the main question!
All tunes are composed by someone, and if that someone is a player of that particular instrument, chances are that they are composing it with that particular instrument in mind. You *could* play it using a different instrument, but it might not sound as well.
Here's an example (albeit not an ITM one) - In particular, the second tune in - the Black Bear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy965HvXK5Y
I wouldn't want to hear that tune played by massed fiddles and shakey eggs ....
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
Hey SWFL! - Ever considered taking up the *English* concertina? ..... same note (in and out) on every button!
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
I don't know about that Mix. I heard that was cheating!
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Question for Llig
Was someone saying that the flute may feel more like a part of a person than another instrument SWFL ? (I may have missed it). I regard it more as a-more-or-less inert chunk of material that someone has made the right shape to help me try to make the air do things. It doesn't feel any more part of me than a familar knife and fork.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by David50
Re: Question for Llig
Quote:
"Well, this was disappointing. I had saved this thread for last. I made popcorn and everything, expecting a big knock down, drag out battle. Instead, I get a reasonable discussion involving actual musical thoughts. What is the world coming to? Does anyone want popcorn?"
Ha ha Swiffle! I was wondering what sort of interest I would get from long-time contributors with the title I picked!
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by The David Dude
Re: Question for Llig
When you tap out a tune with your fingers you know your missing something
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Question for Llig
Are not the pipes more of a part of you? I mean, you're bloody well strapped into the things and can watch enviously as the other musicians rest their instruments on the table when they go to the loo or the bar, and there you are wearing the thing and disentangling yourself is a big faff.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Question for Llig
There is nothing deeper, nor more primal or spiritual than the breath.
I had a teacher once who encouraged me to breathe a certain way with my bowing, but still, while fiddle music is coming from within, it's still wood and hair that's making the sound.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by sara505sings
Re: Question for Llig
and metal.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by sara505sings
Re: Question for Llig
david: Yes, way up above: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24880/comments#comment520674
The David: False advertising!
The SS: Yes. Anything requiring you to look like an extra from The Borg in Star Trek wins.
sara: Good advice, but that don't mean it's better. Careful, or Mr. P will come back and lash out about these fluteocentric types thinking that The Flute is the King of Instruments!
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Question for Llig
Resistance is futile.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Question for Llig
@Mix O'Lydian:
Thanks a lot for your kind comments on my playing! I'm planning on uploading some new videos soon, which should hopefully mark my improvement over the past six months (a long time for a 16-year-old musician!).
I watched that clip again on my YouTube page, and agree that my friend was choosing some more contemporary rhythms and chords on the guitar. However, having played with him regularly for quite a while, I can assert that that is not the only way he accompanies that tune, and that his style as a whole is certainly not accurately represented by that single clip. Perhaps you might like some of these other clips better?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m-FXxSM-XE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl1tAG2txls
Personally, I like his style and appreciative the creativity he brings to our band. As a group, I don't think we're trying to be strictly traditional, but rather are trying to make good music that is interesting for audiences and a pleasure for us to play. So I don't mind the contemporary influences here and there, so long as it is still musical and doesn't depart too far from trad.
Maybe this is a little off-topic, but I'd still be interested in hearing more of your opinion.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by The David Dude
Re: Question for Llig
Generally good stuff. I particularly liked the slow reel Hut on Staffin Island. I had the feeling that some of the phrasing suffered on the fast reels. A bit more attention to the shape of the phrase and playing just a hair slower might give more definition to the tunes and help the band stay exactly together. At the fast tempo you were playing you tended to get just a tiny bit out of synch.
The fast strum accentuates the flat phrasing and reminds me of the style of old time breakdowns played for square dances which are not carefully phrased with the music. That dance setting calls for very fast, very even playing. This is in contrast to New England contra, which needs a well marked phrase and (often) subphrase, thus calling for more "drops and raises".
Most of the ITM reels I prefer lie between these two extremes. That said, what I prefer are jigs, hornpipes, clogs, slip jigs, strathspeys, and 3-2 tunes.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by fiddlentina
Re: Question for Llig
@David Dude - you don't need any "kind complements" from me, or indeed anyone else. You are already a good player and - judging from the solo playing clip - are developing a nice traditional style. I wish you well.
As requested, I've listened to both clips.
In respect of the first clip (reels) I thought the chords were spot-on and perfectly in keeping with the mode.
The sound quality of the second clip is not so good, and it's difficult to tell - perhaps drifting away a liitle from the traditional in the second tune.
Regarding rhythm, still a little too much "chop" in both clips for my taste - but others may well disagree ... !
I would be very interested to see what your guy does with Kerry polkas. That's where synchopation is important. It never ceases to amaze me the number of guitarists who don't notice the synchopated bits of polkas, and play them "straight", all the way through!
Tradition v Creativity
---------------------------
Have a listen to these musicians. Plenty of creativity (if you listen carefully) - and yet perfectly in keeping with "the tradition"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p005jdxz
All the instruments come across equally, with no single instrument dictating the style. Not only that, you can hear each instrument individually, but also as part of the whole.
This doesn't always happen in a session situation, but when it does, it's just magic!
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
@TSS: surely you mean "Resistance is flutile"?
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Question for Llig
I would like to see Flute-Beatboxing become part of the Tradition.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: Question for Llig
none of those blas ceoil vids are available in my area.......thats not really fair
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Question for Llig
If "resistance is futile", have you been assimilated, SilverSpear?
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: Question for Llig
"sara: Good advice, but that don't mean it's better. Careful, or Mr. P will come back and lash out about these fluteocentric types thinking that The Flute is the King of Instruments!
"
oh, I wasn't even thinking along those lines, i.e. better or worse; simply an observation. For me, fiddle is better, because I can make some degree of music with it. Never could get a sound out of a flute, you know, the sideways kind.
Maybe that's part of it, too. It depends on what you're in love with. I'm in love with strings, always have been. I appreciate and enjoy - and even love- the sound of a well-played flute or whistle, but it's not my love.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by sara505sings
Re: Question for Llig
One more question for Llig, is that double L in your name like the Spanish LL, so as to pronounce your name "Yig"?
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: Question for Llig
@ Jwalkert: I can tell you this, if it's not a surname spelled backwards then it's a Welsh word, and "LL" in Welsh is a sort of whispered "L" (you blow down one side of your mouth as you say it).
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Question for Llig
Not exactly Bletchley Park ... is it.
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by ...
Re: Question for Llig
Hmm... all a bit of an enigma .,...
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
How is LL pronounced in Argentina ?
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by David50
Re: Question for Llig
The "L" is silent.
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by Piece
Re: Question for Llig
Not silent, Rook - more like a "Y"
e.g. Llama - something like "Yama"
But that's assuming that you would be in the Spanish-speaking part of Argentina ...
... you might be in the Welsh-speaking part ...
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
(Wiki ref for above):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Argentine
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
"In Argentina and Uruguay it can be like sh in "flash" or like the s in the English "vision"."
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Spanish/Pronunciation
Try it
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by David50
Re: Question for Llig
But another interpretation here ...
http://spanish.about.com/od/spanishpronunciation/a/pronouncing_ll.htm
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
As stated above, argentinian pronunciation of the letters "LL" would be similar to the "si" sound in the english word "vision".
This would make "llig" sound suspiciously like the name of our old friend "Jig" (he of the many pseudonyms).
Could it be one and the same person ? Or is all this getting much too Bletchley Park ?
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by murfbox
Re: Question for Llig
jig and llig the same person?
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Question for Llig
Perish the thought !
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by murfbox
Re: Question for Llig
Llig of Slurs, maybe? ..
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Question for Llig
I knew I should have been a detctive.
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: Question for Llig
Jwalkert, I wish you luck as a detective, as you don't look like you have a future as a copy editor!
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Question for Llig
Reminds me of a cartoon: A man selling pencils on a street corner, wearing a sign that reads: Former Poofreader
As for pronouncing the Welsh double-ell... I was told it helps to think of Donald Duck's temper tantrums. (Mae'n ddrwg gen i... don't kill the messenger!)
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by John Galt
Re: Question for Llig
Al, I don't know what you are talking about, all I mean is I really like this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc3k-85lVsc
# Posted on June 23rd 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: Question for Llig
Jwalkert, I was just making a joke about your spelling of the word "detctive" but after seeing it spelled so many different ways on that youtube site, perhaps the joke is on me! We have met the anime...
# Posted on June 23rd 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Question for Llig
Ha!
That anime stuff always freaks me out though.
# Posted on June 23rd 2010 by Jwalkert