I've been playing ITM a long time, though you wouldn't necessarily know that from my playing...
It seems obvious to me that there are fewer young players in sessions now than there were even 10 or 15 years ago. If I'm wrong about this perception,please forgive me for starting a bogus discussion.
But, if it is true, what can we do? I'm thinking about asking music teachers in local schools if they're interested in having our little session band come by to play for their class. Is there a chance that this might help generate interest among these young people?
I've heard that there is resurgence of ITM, both music and dancing, in Europe. If so, this would be a welcome trend. Can any of you confirm or deny this?
If anyone has suggestions for engaging more young people in our shared passion of playing ITM, please make them known. Most of the sessions my wife and I attend now are comprised almost entirely of people (us included) who are as likely to be discussing retirement plans during the breaks as they are to be discussing that fantastic instrument they plan to get when they ‘grow up’.
It would be sad to see this beautiful tradition fade into obscurity.
Here in the NE USA, we see quite a few young players, and especially up in the Boston area there is a thriving scene of youngsters. I find that the average time it takes these young pups to exceed my playing ability is about two years, and it is a joy to behold!
I think it depends greatly on your location. Also the whole social scene has changed. When I left School here in the Hebrides I would say up to 75% of school leavers went straight into jobs locally, now I would say maybe 20% do. So all the young players here go to the cities for uni or collage. At 41 I'm often the oldest at the sessions I go to when I'm in Glasgow. I can't get over the massive increase of young players in Scotland now compared to when I was starting out with music, also the standard has totally gone through the roof here. There's a lot of evidence of lack of experience and questionable taste, as you'd expect with so many youngsters but in twenty years time when they have 20 years of listening and playing behind them they're going to be amazing. I'm actually quite exited at the prospect.
Yeah, there are a lot of good young players in Scotland.
A lot of them doing courses in trad music - how that will affect trad music eventually I have no idea.
Standards are very high like bogman said.
The economic influence on population movements hinted at by bogman is also interesting.
You might be due for another fresh influx of diaspora soon over there in The New World once the cuts get going, well, it's probably ramped up already
theres no point in encouraging them to play, they have to make the choice themselves. i started whistle when i was 5 in school, and had no interest whatsoever until i was about 12, then started again myself. its like everything else, no point in doing it if you dont like it.
What do people mean here by "young"? I'm 20, and I'm usually the youngest musician in the sessions I go to in London, although there have been teenagers come before, it's not that rare. There's a few late 20's, early 30's, and some middle-aged and oldies as well. I suppose I consider "young" to be under 25 or so. After that, you ain't young any more.
AlBrown -- I was in Boston this past nine months or so, until May, and I couldn't say I found the session scene there either thriving or young. In fact, I thought it was in a pretty dire state, and everyone there seemed to be in their 30's. Is that what you meant by "young"? Different perspectives, I guess...
Usually I try something like "That was very nicely played, young player. I wish I could play like that." (It's usually true, and when it's not, it's a lie in good service.)
Actually, there are a lot of encouraging young players around here. Young David on the whistle, for example, is very encouraging, both in that hearing him play really bucks up the old will to live, and in that he often suggests that another player is doing quite well, and should play that one again, please, because he (David) almost had it that last time.
It's funny, it seems to me that there are more and more young players every year, and they get younger and younger every year. When I started playing, I was always just about the youngest player in the sessions, but that's no longer true. Very encouraging, indeed!
When I was growing up there was no TV, and we learned how to entertain ourselves with music and dancing as well as the usual card games and reading etc. For a few decades after that everyone watched TV and forgot how to entertain themselves, and I feared for society. I am heartened, however, to find that children today who have grown up with TV realize that it is a load of time-consuming rubbish, and are looking elsewhere to entertain themselves. If we who still remember how to do it are still around, they will see us having fun and want to join in. I have great faith in human nature and its ability to get us out of this little evolutionary cul-de-sac.
Jon there are so many young (as in under 30!) players here that you're more likely to hear "That was very nicely played, grand-dad, not bad for an old fella. But there's how it *really* goes"
Hey dfrost:
Just confirming the above, there are indeed lots of young up-and-comers here in the NE USA, in various traditions.
Like youngsters all over, they are, many of them, into what is currently "hot" and "trendy", what is playing on youtube and who is touring and recording and, especially, pushing the envelope.
Being able to recall my teens and twenties, I do not feel we are threatened by kids being kids, rebellion is almost synonymous with youth and the growing process, but does not deny learning to treasure many of our traditions and resources.
fear not - A cool old musician with a great style will always have listeners who want to learn, and share, and pass it on.
"I've heard that there is resurgence of ITM, both music and dancing, in Europe. If so, this would be a welcome trend. Can any of you confirm or deny this?"
Here in Russia the first sessions were organized in 2004. They enlarged, went through some problems, moved to the proverbial kitchens. As of 2010, there's a revival. As for bands, the was always progress I think. As for dance, I don't know.
The important thing to worry about is whether a sufficient number of the good young players are still going to be playing/teaching in their 30s and beyond so as to keep the tradition going. The problem is that many get side-tracked by careers, family commitments, and even other interests. I know for myself that in my 20s there was a period of several years when I didn't play any music for career reasons (ok, it was classical, but the argument still applies), and it wasn't until I was in my 30s that I got back into playing the cello again, but I had kept in contact with two or three key people during my time away. Strangely enough, when I did start playing again, after the first couple of weeks it was like I'd never got off the bus.
Social gatherings and playing and dancing to music is inherently attractive to young people, if you build it they will come.
Improve your session's accessability. Have a session within walking distance of a college campus, and take note if the only local sessions are in over 21 only establishments, maybe start one in a coffee shop.
"I'm thinking about asking music teachers in local schools if they're interested in having our little session band come by to play for their class. Is there a chance that this might help generate interest among these young people?"
Taking traditional music into the schools is a great service to the kids and the educational system in general. Absolutely, this is a fabulous way to inspire young people to take up music.
dfost, In Ireland (thats where I'm from) there is no shortage of young people playing ITM
-this isn't even an issue worth bring up
"It would be sad to see this beautiful tradition fade into obscurity" to suggest this is happening is ridiculous.
Look, I come from South Tipperary , not known for its strong roots in ITM , yet I regulary play with people of my own age.
Im sorry for you dfost that there are less young people playing in Waterloo Michigan , if you feel your capable of teaching then do so if it makes you feel better.
I think it is worth bringing up Premierflute. S. Tipp might not be known for trad but you would not have to travel far to see how healthy it is, same here in Scotland. But it's worth noting in other places, maybe where the OP comes from it's a struggle. If nothing else, the responses here can reassure folk that trad is certainly in no immediate danger. By immediate I mean for the next 2 or 3 generations. Of course my own experiences are mainly from the Scottish side, but even if everyone in Ireland stopped playing Irish trad could survive just on its strength in Scotland alone. Stylistically so much would be lost of course.
From what I see, there is certainly no shortage of young talent. But there does seem to be a difference in attitude: where a lot of us picked up an instrument, taught ourselves to play, and now go out to make music for the sheer fun of it, the younger generation are taking lessons, studying traditional music at university, and generally treating it as classical music was when I was young - it is an area where you strive to achieve things, not something you do for fun.
Our local academy has quite a strong little fiddle orchestra, but do we ever see those kids at the local sessions or folk club? No.
Whilst the music itself is undoubtedly safe in the hands of a genereation who are generally more technically competent than their forebears, what we may be in danger of losing is the ethos and spirit of the music - they're taking it all too seriously.
"From what I see, there is certainly no shortage of young talent. But there does seem to be a difference in attitude: where a lot of us picked up an instrument, taught ourselves to play, and now go out to make music for the sheer fun of it, the younger generation are taking lessons, studying traditional music at university, and generally treating it as classical music was when I was young - it is an area where you strive to achieve things, not something you do for fun."
Ahhhm sorry skreech dunno where your getting this from but this isn't among the majority of young ITM musicians trust me.
"Whilst the music itself is undoubtedly safe in the hands of a genereation who are generally more technically competent than their forebears" look this maybe true but we're not loosing ethos or spirit or craic,
Ive played with enough young people to know this isn't true, get your self to the willie clancy week or the fleadh in cavan , or kilfenora or clonmel in south Tipp on a saturday night in Baker's or O'Donnells and look in the door of the pubs in the middle of the day and you'll see your statements are largley unfounded
This is simply discrimination against young people and I get fed up of it
I agree with you to a certain extent there skreech but I think it does vary from place to place. There's much, much more tuition available now and I feel that many young players and bands want to use all the bags of tricks they've learned but I'm sure, like most folk, they'll settle down to the music. Certainly among the students and graduates of the RSAMD they are passionate about sessions and play at every opportunity. From what I can see younger players most definitely play for fun. I think it's difficult for kids as they can't get into most sessions because of licensing laws and folk clubs are few and far between these days and have never been popular with kids in many areas.
I think we can get a strange perception here in Scotland because the quantity of kids learning is mindboggling compared to recent times and maybe sometimes it's difficult to read between the lines.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Premierflute
"This is simply discrimination against young people and I get fed up of it."
It certainly isn't discrimination. I devote a lot of my time, and my own money, to trying to get youngsters involved. It's one of my little hobby-horses.
As to the examples you give - fleadhs just reinforce what I was saying about attitudes and the ethos of the music - young people want to go and compete in competitions - to achieve something, not just play for the hell of it. And events like Clancy week tell you nothing about the health of the tradition - people attend from all over the globe. Just because there are a lot of young people there, it doesn't mean they have a lot of young people to play with when they go home.
I accept what Bogman says, I'm sure the situation does vary from area to area. But I still think that there is an overall change in attitude. If you look at the young bands of today (and there are a lot of them, which is good) they are all composed of traditional music graduates and fleadh winners and 'BBC young musician of the year's . And they are all trying to make money out of their music. Gone are the bands who spent their summere holiday touring for the fun of it, and thought themselves lucky if they got expenses for a gig.
For God's sake people go to fleadhs for more than competitions it reinforces nothing! I spent a week before the 'weekend' of the fleadh this year playing sessions with other young people and was invited to go to Armagh for a week.
-you weren't talking not talking about young bands here either give me some examples....
and I apologise, some who who enters a competition couldn't possibly have any spirit...or be capable of playing for love of the music
Whilst the music itself is undoubtedly safe in the hands of a genereation who are generally more technically competent than their forebears, what we may be in danger of losing is the ethos and spirit of the music
What you take from my profile (that there isn't enough fiddlers to make a ceili band) doesn't form any base to your statements so please don't use what I say to try and do so.
I'm sorry, but I think that quote shows exactly what I'm trying to say about the attitude of the younger generation today.
If you want to form a ceilidh band and there are no fiddlers or drummers in the area, why haven't you persuaded a couple of your mates to swap their guitars for fiddle and bodhran? THAT is what trad music is about - getting on an making music for yourself with the talents and resources available. Not sitting back saying "I can't do this, because I can't surround myself with professional musicians"
Personally I'd prefer a snare drum to bodhran.......
Look just what I said simply means we lack the fiddlers.
We have more than enough of other instruments, of course I could make a ceili band with the ehm talents and resources available but I like the sound of fiddles in a ceili band....are fiddle players all professional musicians?
Then again Im young and Ive a bad attitude towards music so what do I know?
Maybe. But the Beatles probably wouldn't have got as far as they did if they hadn't persuaded Paul to take up the bass.
But if he doesn't want to do that, he could still form a band of twelve guitars and a flute, or whatever is available. That is how traditional music has always worked. Our grandfathers didn't say 'we can't have a ceilidh because we haven't got the right musicians' They just got on with it and did the best they could with what they had. That, to me at least, is the most important aspect of the tradition.
I'm confused. Since when does fiddle player = professional musician?
Premierflute says in his profile there aren't enough fiddle players around South Tipp. That doesn't equate to wanting to play with professional musicians.
I don't know what "our grandfathers" did. I know mine played the trumpet with the (US) army. So there you go.
I think everyone who is generalizing about "young players" is wrong. : ) The only generalization you can make is that you can't generalize. They're not *all* technically brilliant but only want to compete and commercialize the music. They don't *all* want to play in sessions, just for the craic. The motives of the under 30s crowd varies as much as anyone's. You guys are funny..... "young people these days....grumble, grumble... when I was a kid we used to have to walk to school through the snow.... uphill both ways...."
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Premierflute
"Then again Im young and Ive a bad attitude towards music so what do I know?"
Permierflute, I never said that youngsters have 'a bad attitude', I said they have 'a DIFFERENT attitude'.
It's there to see in all aspects of life - people now tend to do things for what they can get out of it, not what they can put in. Everybody wants to be David Beckham, but you try finding someone willing to give up their time to referee the primary school league.
And the same thing seems to be happening in traditional music - people don't want to do it just for the fun, they only want to do it if they can show that they are good at it. As you say, you'd rather not form a band at all than to form one that doesn't conform to what you think will be a good band.
It's still not all bad. What we are seeing now - smaller numbers, but with much higher levels of training and professionalism, is undoubtedly very good for the music. But not necessarily for the ethos behind it.
SS, I hope your toungue was in your cheek. But if it wasn't, I will emphasise that we are only talking in generalities here - I'm well aware that there are still a lot of youngsters who have a real passion for the music today, and there were certainly plenty of carp bands who were only in it for the money back in 'my day'. But what seems to have chanced is the balance between the two extremes.
"Everybody wants to be David Beckham, but you try finding someone willing to give up their time to referee the primary school league."
Easy. My brother and his mates (all in their early to mid twenties) who coach and referee local U9-17 soccer leagues for free. Because they love the game.
I think you're idealizing the past, imagining a time when people just played for love and there was no capitalist mongering in the music. What about Coleman and Killoran and all those guys who were going on the stage in the 1920s and 30s?
I know a lot of people, including the guy who won the Scottish Young Musician of the Year award last year, who still like the banter of a good session. You're speaking in generalities, and the generalities might indeed be the case for some people In fairness, I have met them. I did once meet some very good young players in Ireland who were saying that they don't much like playing anymore unless they're getting paid. Luckily I have met even more musicians, including fairly successful professional ones, who don't share this attitude. There are plenty of young people playing for the love of it. All I am saying is that your generalities don't describe what's going on very well, with enough nuance.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
"Maybe you should name the bands you believe to be in it only for the money."
I'm not going to risk offending anyone by answering that. But look and some of the top acts and ask yourself 'would they still be doing that if it didn't pay the mortgage?'
And I would turn the quewstion round and ask you - where are the bands who will happily pay for free? Or just for expenses?
From SS:
"I think you're idealizing the past, imagining a time when people just played for love and there was no capitalist mongering in the music. What about Coleman and Killoran and all those guys who were going on the stage in the 1920s and 30s? "
Ask yourself where all the small folk clubs have gone. Talk to the people who run the few that remain. Their struggling because they simply can't find acts they can afford. Big clubs in Edinburgh that used to regularly book five and six piece bands, and can now only afford to put on solo acts and duos.
We are just talking in generalities here - there have always been top acts commanding top dollar, and there probably will always be the floor spots who do it for nothing (although they are getting noticeable thinner on the ground).
But it is in the middle ground - the mediocre, and 'up and coming' bands - that things have changed: the general attitude used to be 'this is our hobby, and if we make a bit of dosh from it, so much the better. And if we ever get good enough, we might be able to turn professional.' Nowadays, right from the start, bands go out with an attitude of 'We are a professional band, so we deserve a proper wage.'
How many years did the Chieftain or the Dubliners gig for before they gave up their day jobs? How many bands today of that calibre can you name who still have day jobs?
"But look and some of the top acts and ask yourself 'would they still be doing that if it didn't pay the mortgage?'"
Sorry Skreech but your judging that on your own tastes. I know most of the folk in the 'top acts' in Scotland and they do not do it to pay the mortgage. If they are the top acts does it not follow they are the most popular. If they're the most popular with punters maybe some musicians enjoy what they're doing too.
I'm not tremendously "well-connected" but I know a few "top act" musicians ;) and they definitely just love to play. For a few, their favourite thing in the world is their weekly session. Go figire.
Well if you guys are so well connected, and the 'top acts' are all so philanthropic, please could you get them to come and play for us out here in the sticks?
Bogman:
"Sorry Skreech but your judging that on your own tastes."
No I'm not. I deliberately haven't named any bands. I simply asked you to answer a question about the bands that you consider to be 'top acts'.
You want a gig, you have to pay for it. I don't understand what the problem is here. You want them to come to your session? Send them an invite. Go make friends. I dunno.
I mean, it's just economics. It's just fair. You want us to drive there, set up the PA, put on a big show and you don't want to us pay us decently? No thanks. Sorry.
Not me personally in this regional case, I mean bands in general. I don't see what the problem is. You want a band for a performance? Pay them if they deserve it. You want them to come to a session? Go ask them. Make friends. I just don't get it.
you won't offend anybody by naming a band skreech.....
I'll name two Bands; Danu and Teada....they both tour...they both make money from Music....they both love the music....they both play good music (that one is my opinion).....
In my experience, beyond groups with lots of soundtrack tie-ins and multiple grammies - the Chieftains, that is - traditional music groups that are "in it for the money" are delusional.
In some professions, "making a living with a little left over to save toward retirement" is an entry-level wage. In folk music, it's pretty close to the top of the scale. (I don't consider the synthesizer-and-smoke dance-pop Celtorama bands to be in the traditional category, sorry, I'm a bigot that way)
So yes, I do believe that the top-flight musicians play for the love of it, although I imagine that somewhere around week 33 of the tour, they might get a little weary. The hard work of drive - set - play - schmooze - repeat will eventually start to wear on someone, and it'll show most in the "play" part.
Can somebody give me a name of a traditional Irish music band that are in it for the money? I'm not saying they don't exist but I can't name one..............
"I don't consider the synthesizer-and-smoke dance-pop Celtorama bands to be in the traditional category, sorry, I'm a bigot that way" hahaha I must see/hear one of these bands
But to emphasise my point I will name son=me names, at least on one side of the arguement.
Here in the back of beyond we do occasionally get 'names' to come and play for us as they pass by. Brian McNeill, Duncan Chisholm and Ivan Drever, Battlefield Band, Aly Bain and Phil Cunningham. All have played here knowing that even if they manage to fill the hall it will barely cover their costs. Aly and Phil in particular regularly play the small village halls, where they know they will make far less than for a couple of hours at the BBC.
In contrast, when we try to book even quite modest 'up and coming' bands - ones who have only been together a year or two, and who the general public have probably never of, they invariably price themselves out of the market.
Skreech, I answered your question the best I could. You didn't ask who I considered to be the top acts, you just asked about top acts. I can only take from that which bands are popular and who you may think are only in it for the money. All you can do is assume these folk don't enjoy what they're doing and are doing it for money. I just think there are very very few that do it for the money, in all honesty.
I'm just a lowly session musician -- not in any band nor trying to book them. All I can say is that I have seen quite a few "top flight" musicians enjoy a tune with whatever players, including the supremely mediocre ones like myself, tripped down to the pub last night.
Bands that price themselves out of markets will learn if they're going to last. You don't always play just for the gate - sometimes you have to think of developing markets, or filling in a hole in the schedule.
Here's an example: if you're on your way from Portland on Thursday to Eugene on Friday to San Francisco on Wednesday next, you look for something in Northern California or the Bay on Monday or Tuesday. And you do that gig, even if it's a hundred bucks for the four of you. Why? Because that hundred bucks is gas money that you don't get if you're too fussy to take the gig, and because the twenty people who show up might just be in a CD-buying mood (I've seen nights where maybe two dozen people each bought three or four CDs, I've seen nights where a full house bought three or four CDs total, you never know) and you do it because playing for twenty new people is a chance to make twenty new people into your number-one fans - people who will never miss your shows, buy your CDs, and host your house concerts, because you put on a good show and caught them right.
So it's foolish for a band to be too rigid on price,
On the other hand, I have to jump to say that it's also foolish for a band to compromise their fee to play "exposure gigs" on prime nights in good markets. In the example above, the band had better be making a decent take in Portland, Eugene, and San Francisco, or they won't be around to take advantage of the market they developed in northern California.
That is, it's also foolish to be too flexible on price.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
"Skreech, I answered your question the best I could. You didn't ask who I considered to be the top acts, you just asked about top acts. I can only take from that which bands are popular and who you may think are only in it for the money. All you can do is assume these folk don't enjoy what they're doing and are doing it for money. I just think there are very very few that do it for the money, in all honesty."
I know I didn't ask who you think are top acts, because it is irrelevant. I simply asked you to think about top acts - ie. the ones that you think are 'top acts'.
Nor have I said anywhere that anyone plays just for the money. I am quite sure you are absolutely right and they all play first and foremost for the love of it. But what I AM saying is that there is a degree of expectation and hard-nosed business sense that wasn't necessarily there before. In tha past bands played, and if they managed to make enough to give up their day jobs, that was an added bonus to them. Today bands cut one CD and expect to be paid as professional musicians from that point on.
Fair enough Skreech but you did say "But look and some of the top acts and ask yourself 'would they still be doing that if it didn't pay the mortgage?'" My answer would be yes as far as sessions etc go.
Jon is right, if a band prices themselves out the market they're not going to last. There is a lot more demand for paid bands nowadays but there are still a vast majority that do it part time.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
"Fair enough Skreech but you did say "But look and some of the top acts and ask yourself 'would they still be doing that if it didn't pay the mortgage?'" My answer would be yes as far as sessions etc go. "
And I'd agree with that. The only point I was trying to make is that attitudes have changed, and amongst youngsters - or probably more acurately everyone today - there is much more of an expectation to get something back out of the music.
What's all this talk about professional gigs? I've played gigs with younger players, but what we (maybe it's just me) enjoy most is exchanging a few tunes. That's it ~ getting to know someone & hearing each other play. Listening, talking, having a session.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Random_humour
"What's all this talk about professional gigs? I've played gigs with younger players, but what we (maybe it's just me) enjoy most is exchanging a few tunes. That's it ~ getting to know someone & hearing each other play. Listening, talking, having a session."
And that is brilliant. That is what will preserve the tradition.
There's two different things here, gigs and sessions. To me, it sounds like we're talking gigs. 'These kids and their bands, they make a demo, hang their sign out and expect to get paid like a Bothy.' etc. etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I'm reading.
I'm a middle aged duffer, but I still feel like I have to say something if 'da kids' are all getting painted with the same brush, when it comes to bands and gigs.
All that said, it'd be a shame for young musicians not to participate in sessions, and to only play gigs. The bands I play in are made up of people I've sessioned with years, and still do currently.
Despite the fact that we don't do the touchy feely stuff real good-like on here, sessions are integral to the music and the sense of community that it brings. The shared appreciation for the music in an informal (read: not gig, aka 'performance') setting is vital. Or, at least I feel that it is.
dfost, if you're still here, I see you're in Michigan. Not sure what it's like for you there, but like in SW Florida, I bet it's roughly the same.
In big US cities there are already resources there to encourage young players. There are healthy session scenes, dancing, teachers, and so on.
Here we're just lucky to have a cultural clubs and step dance schools, even though right in between the two big cities of Tampa and Miami. We're also blessed to have local set dance teachers and dancing groups that do ceilis.
So yes, go play for the schools, great idea. Do you teach? Do you have teachers there? You'll need to be able to direct interested kiddos to a teacher. They'll need family friendly sessions to go to, either public or private. You can host kitchen sessions if need be. They should go see dances, participate. Perhaps you're lucky enough to have a nearby dance school with 'the girls with the curls'. Your students could play for them, the dancers themselves will also show interest in playing.
I know you must have Contra dancing up there at the least! Henry Ford was a huge fan.
OK, just double checked your bio and your daughters are dancers. Duh on me, and you too! That's a perfect in right there. Why not grab the missus and go give your first demo for their school? I bet some of their classmates would totally be interested in learning to play.
" Today bands cut one CD and expect to be paid as professional musicians from that point on"
-trad bands?, you've come across this before then obviously? Personal Experience?
Well, anyone working as a musician in a bar should be treating themselves as a professional musician. They should show up on time, know how to use their sound gear, know how to play their instruments, preferably have some degree of stage presence, they should drink enough to encourage the audience to do the same but not enough to endanger their own ability to play (this step is optional for the sober and the straightedge, but recommended for those who can follow it) and they should of course expect to be paid as professionals.
That's regardless of how many CDs they've recorded.
That just goes without saying - if you're not worth paying at a professional's wage, the bar owner shouldn't let you near his stage, and if you're good enough to play on his stage, you're good enough for him to pay you. What's hard about that?
Encouraging young players
Encouraging young players
I've been playing ITM a long time, though you wouldn't necessarily know that from my playing...
It seems obvious to me that there are fewer young players in sessions now than there were even 10 or 15 years ago. If I'm wrong about this perception,please forgive me for starting a bogus discussion.
But, if it is true, what can we do? I'm thinking about asking music teachers in local schools if they're interested in having our little session band come by to play for their class. Is there a chance that this might help generate interest among these young people?
I've heard that there is resurgence of ITM, both music and dancing, in Europe. If so, this would be a welcome trend. Can any of you confirm or deny this?
If anyone has suggestions for engaging more young people in our shared passion of playing ITM, please make them known. Most of the sessions my wife and I attend now are comprised almost entirely of people (us included) who are as likely to be discussing retirement plans during the breaks as they are to be discussing that fantastic instrument they plan to get when they ‘grow up’.
It would be sad to see this beautiful tradition fade into obscurity.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by dfost
Re: Encouraging young players
Here in the NE USA, we see quite a few young players, and especially up in the Boston area there is a thriving scene of youngsters. I find that the average time it takes these young pups to exceed my playing ability is about two years, and it is a joy to behold!
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Encouraging young players
I think it depends greatly on your location. Also the whole social scene has changed. When I left School here in the Hebrides I would say up to 75% of school leavers went straight into jobs locally, now I would say maybe 20% do. So all the young players here go to the cities for uni or collage. At 41 I'm often the oldest at the sessions I go to when I'm in Glasgow. I can't get over the massive increase of young players in Scotland now compared to when I was starting out with music, also the standard has totally gone through the roof here. There's a lot of evidence of lack of experience and questionable taste, as you'd expect with so many youngsters but in twenty years time when they have 20 years of listening and playing behind them they're going to be amazing. I'm actually quite exited at the prospect.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by bogman
Re: Encouraging young players
Yeah, there are a lot of good young players in Scotland.
A lot of them doing courses in trad music - how that will affect trad music eventually I have no idea.
Standards are very high like bogman said.
The economic influence on population movements hinted at by bogman is also interesting.
You might be due for another fresh influx of diaspora soon over there in The New World once the cuts get going, well, it's probably ramped up already
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Bren
Re: Encouraging young players
theres no point in encouraging them to play, they have to make the choice themselves. i started whistle when i was 5 in school, and had no interest whatsoever until i was about 12, then started again myself. its like everything else, no point in doing it if you dont like it.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by James Morgan
Re: Encouraging young players
What do people mean here by "young"? I'm 20, and I'm usually the youngest musician in the sessions I go to in London, although there have been teenagers come before, it's not that rare. There's a few late 20's, early 30's, and some middle-aged and oldies as well. I suppose I consider "young" to be under 25 or so. After that, you ain't young any more.
AlBrown -- I was in Boston this past nine months or so, until May, and I couldn't say I found the session scene there either thriving or young. In fact, I thought it was in a pretty dire state, and everyone there seemed to be in their 30's. Is that what you meant by "young"? Different perspectives, I guess...
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Joe CSS
Re: Encouraging young players
Usually I try something like "That was very nicely played, young player. I wish I could play like that." (It's usually true, and when it's not, it's a lie in good service.)
Actually, there are a lot of encouraging young players around here. Young David on the whistle, for example, is very encouraging, both in that hearing him play really bucks up the old will to live, and in that he often suggests that another player is doing quite well, and should play that one again, please, because he (David) almost had it that last time.
It's funny, it seems to me that there are more and more young players every year, and they get younger and younger every year. When I started playing, I was always just about the youngest player in the sessions, but that's no longer true. Very encouraging, indeed!
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Encouraging young players
When I was growing up there was no TV, and we learned how to entertain ourselves with music and dancing as well as the usual card games and reading etc. For a few decades after that everyone watched TV and forgot how to entertain themselves, and I feared for society. I am heartened, however, to find that children today who have grown up with TV realize that it is a load of time-consuming rubbish, and are looking elsewhere to entertain themselves. If we who still remember how to do it are still around, they will see us having fun and want to join in. I have great faith in human nature and its ability to get us out of this little evolutionary cul-de-sac.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by gam
Re: Encouraging young players
Jon there are so many young (as in under 30!) players here that you're more likely to hear "That was very nicely played, grand-dad, not bad for an old fella. But there's how it *really* goes"
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Bren
Re: Encouraging young players
There are loads of great young players in England and Ireland - the tradition really isn't going to fade into obscurity.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Encouraging young players
In Glasgow there is one session which often gets filled with teenagers who are really bloody good. I think "the tradition" is in safe hands.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Encouraging young players
Hey dfrost:
Just confirming the above, there are indeed lots of young up-and-comers here in the NE USA, in various traditions.
Like youngsters all over, they are, many of them, into what is currently "hot" and "trendy", what is playing on youtube and who is touring and recording and, especially, pushing the envelope.
Being able to recall my teens and twenties, I do not feel we are threatened by kids being kids, rebellion is almost synonymous with youth and the growing process, but does not deny learning to treasure many of our traditions and resources.
fear not - A cool old musician with a great style will always have listeners who want to learn, and share, and pass it on.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Piece
Re: Encouraging young players
"I've heard that there is resurgence of ITM, both music and dancing, in Europe. If so, this would be a welcome trend. Can any of you confirm or deny this?"
Here in Russia the first sessions were organized in 2004. They enlarged, went through some problems, moved to the proverbial kitchens. As of 2010, there's a revival. As for bands, the was always progress I think. As for dance, I don't know.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Elvellon
Re: Encouraging young players
The important thing to worry about is whether a sufficient number of the good young players are still going to be playing/teaching in their 30s and beyond so as to keep the tradition going. The problem is that many get side-tracked by careers, family commitments, and even other interests. I know for myself that in my 20s there was a period of several years when I didn't play any music for career reasons (ok, it was classical, but the argument still applies), and it wasn't until I was in my 30s that I got back into playing the cello again, but I had kept in contact with two or three key people during my time away. Strangely enough, when I did start playing again, after the first couple of weeks it was like I'd never got off the bus.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Encouraging young players
dfost - FYI a thread that I started last month, which is related toyours:
"Do sessions suffer frome ageing populations?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24644
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Encouraging young players
Social gatherings and playing and dancing to music is inherently attractive to young people, if you build it they will come.
Improve your session's accessability. Have a session within walking distance of a college campus, and take note if the only local sessions are in over 21 only establishments, maybe start one in a coffee shop.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by SandyBottoms
Re: Encouraging young players
dfost asked:
"I'm thinking about asking music teachers in local schools if they're interested in having our little session band come by to play for their class. Is there a chance that this might help generate interest among these young people?"
Taking traditional music into the schools is a great service to the kids and the educational system in general. Absolutely, this is a fabulous way to inspire young people to take up music.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by aluna
Re: Encouraging young players
dfost, In Ireland (thats where I'm from) there is no shortage of young people playing ITM
-this isn't even an issue worth bring up
"It would be sad to see this beautiful tradition fade into obscurity" to suggest this is happening is ridiculous.
Look, I come from South Tipperary , not known for its strong roots in ITM , yet I regulary play with people of my own age.
Im sorry for you dfost that there are less young people playing in Waterloo Michigan , if you feel your capable of teaching then do so if it makes you feel better.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
I think it is worth bringing up Premierflute. S. Tipp might not be known for trad but you would not have to travel far to see how healthy it is, same here in Scotland. But it's worth noting in other places, maybe where the OP comes from it's a struggle. If nothing else, the responses here can reassure folk that trad is certainly in no immediate danger. By immediate I mean for the next 2 or 3 generations. Of course my own experiences are mainly from the Scottish side, but even if everyone in Ireland stopped playing Irish trad could survive just on its strength in Scotland alone. Stylistically so much would be lost of course.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Encouraging young players
From what I see, there is certainly no shortage of young talent. But there does seem to be a difference in attitude: where a lot of us picked up an instrument, taught ourselves to play, and now go out to make music for the sheer fun of it, the younger generation are taking lessons, studying traditional music at university, and generally treating it as classical music was when I was young - it is an area where you strive to achieve things, not something you do for fun.
Our local academy has quite a strong little fiddle orchestra, but do we ever see those kids at the local sessions or folk club? No.
Whilst the music itself is undoubtedly safe in the hands of a genereation who are generally more technically competent than their forebears, what we may be in danger of losing is the ethos and spirit of the music - they're taking it all too seriously.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
"From what I see, there is certainly no shortage of young talent. But there does seem to be a difference in attitude: where a lot of us picked up an instrument, taught ourselves to play, and now go out to make music for the sheer fun of it, the younger generation are taking lessons, studying traditional music at university, and generally treating it as classical music was when I was young - it is an area where you strive to achieve things, not something you do for fun."
Ahhhm sorry skreech dunno where your getting this from but this isn't among the majority of young ITM musicians trust me.
"Whilst the music itself is undoubtedly safe in the hands of a genereation who are generally more technically competent than their forebears" look this maybe true but we're not loosing ethos or spirit or craic,
Ive played with enough young people to know this isn't true, get your self to the willie clancy week or the fleadh in cavan , or kilfenora or clonmel in south Tipp on a saturday night in Baker's or O'Donnells and look in the door of the pubs in the middle of the day and you'll see your statements are largley unfounded
This is simply discrimination against young people and I get fed up of it
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
I agree with you to a certain extent there skreech but I think it does vary from place to place. There's much, much more tuition available now and I feel that many young players and bands want to use all the bags of tricks they've learned but I'm sure, like most folk, they'll settle down to the music. Certainly among the students and graduates of the RSAMD they are passionate about sessions and play at every opportunity. From what I can see younger players most definitely play for fun. I think it's difficult for kids as they can't get into most sessions because of licensing laws and folk clubs are few and far between these days and have never been popular with kids in many areas.
I think we can get a strange perception here in Scotland because the quantity of kids learning is mindboggling compared to recent times and maybe sometimes it's difficult to read between the lines.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Encouraging young players
Cross post there Premierflute. I was referring to Scotland as that's where skreech is from.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Encouraging young players
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Premierflute
"This is simply discrimination against young people and I get fed up of it."
It certainly isn't discrimination. I devote a lot of my time, and my own money, to trying to get youngsters involved. It's one of my little hobby-horses.
As to the examples you give - fleadhs just reinforce what I was saying about attitudes and the ethos of the music - young people want to go and compete in competitions - to achieve something, not just play for the hell of it. And events like Clancy week tell you nothing about the health of the tradition - people attend from all over the globe. Just because there are a lot of young people there, it doesn't mean they have a lot of young people to play with when they go home.
I accept what Bogman says, I'm sure the situation does vary from area to area. But I still think that there is an overall change in attitude. If you look at the young bands of today (and there are a lot of them, which is good) they are all composed of traditional music graduates and fleadh winners and 'BBC young musician of the year's . And they are all trying to make money out of their music. Gone are the bands who spent their summere holiday touring for the fun of it, and thought themselves lucky if they got expenses for a gig.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
For God's sake people go to fleadhs for more than competitions it reinforces nothing! I spent a week before the 'weekend' of the fleadh this year playing sessions with other young people and was invited to go to Armagh for a week.
-you weren't talking not talking about young bands here either give me some examples....
and I apologise, some who who enters a competition couldn't possibly have any spirit...or be capable of playing for love of the music
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
-invited to armagh by young people from there
and look do you think the 100's of young people at the fleadhs are all plaing in compeptition? They aren't.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
Quote from Premierflute's profile:
"I would seriously love to join a ceili band but we lack the musicans around my area, not enough fiddlers no drummer:( "
Nuff said.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
Whilst the music itself is undoubtedly safe in the hands of a genereation who are generally more technically competent than their forebears, what we may be in danger of losing is the ethos and spirit of the music
What you take from my profile (that there isn't enough fiddlers to make a ceili band) doesn't form any base to your statements so please don't use what I say to try and do so.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
I'm sorry, but I think that quote shows exactly what I'm trying to say about the attitude of the younger generation today.
If you want to form a ceilidh band and there are no fiddlers or drummers in the area, why haven't you persuaded a couple of your mates to swap their guitars for fiddle and bodhran? THAT is what trad music is about - getting on an making music for yourself with the talents and resources available. Not sitting back saying "I can't do this, because I can't surround myself with professional musicians"
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
That's a bit unfair skreech, trying to persuade folk to swap instruments to get what you want would be extremely selfish.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Encouraging young players
Personally I'd prefer a snare drum to bodhran.......
Look just what I said simply means we lack the fiddlers.
We have more than enough of other instruments, of course I could make a ceili band with the ehm talents and resources available but I like the sound of fiddles in a ceili band....are fiddle players all professional musicians?
Then again Im young and Ive a bad attitude towards music so what do I know?
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
I prefer those horrid skull things to bodhrans
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by ...
Re: Encouraging young players
Maybe. But the Beatles probably wouldn't have got as far as they did if they hadn't persuaded Paul to take up the bass.
But if he doesn't want to do that, he could still form a band of twelve guitars and a flute, or whatever is available. That is how traditional music has always worked. Our grandfathers didn't say 'we can't have a ceilidh because we haven't got the right musicians' They just got on with it and did the best they could with what they had. That, to me at least, is the most important aspect of the tradition.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
Sorry, my last was a reply to Bogman, there has been some cross-posting.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
Just as well they didn't persuade George to give up the guitar for a bodhran then
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Encouraging young players
I'm confused. Since when does fiddle player = professional musician?
Premierflute says in his profile there aren't enough fiddle players around South Tipp. That doesn't equate to wanting to play with professional musicians.
I don't know what "our grandfathers" did. I know mine played the trumpet with the (US) army. So there you go.
I think everyone who is generalizing about "young players" is wrong. : ) The only generalization you can make is that you can't generalize. They're not *all* technically brilliant but only want to compete and commercialize the music. They don't *all* want to play in sessions, just for the craic. The motives of the under 30s crowd varies as much as anyone's. You guys are funny..... "young people these days....grumble, grumble... when I was a kid we used to have to walk to school through the snow.... uphill both ways...."
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Encouraging young players
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Premierflute
"Then again Im young and Ive a bad attitude towards music so what do I know?"
Permierflute, I never said that youngsters have 'a bad attitude', I said they have 'a DIFFERENT attitude'.
It's there to see in all aspects of life - people now tend to do things for what they can get out of it, not what they can put in. Everybody wants to be David Beckham, but you try finding someone willing to give up their time to referee the primary school league.
And the same thing seems to be happening in traditional music - people don't want to do it just for the fun, they only want to do it if they can show that they are good at it. As you say, you'd rather not form a band at all than to form one that doesn't conform to what you think will be a good band.
It's still not all bad. What we are seeing now - smaller numbers, but with much higher levels of training and professionalism, is undoubtedly very good for the music. But not necessarily for the ethos behind it.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
...with no shoes!
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Encouraging young players
Sorry, cross post. I was finishing ye olde '...uphill both ways...' thing there.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Encouraging young players
Thanks there Silverspear, and I'll thank god for the school bus
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
SS, I hope your toungue was in your cheek. But if it wasn't, I will emphasise that we are only talking in generalities here - I'm well aware that there are still a lot of youngsters who have a real passion for the music today, and there were certainly plenty of carp bands who were only in it for the money back in 'my day'. But what seems to have chanced is the balance between the two extremes.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
Maybe you should name the bands you believe to be in it only for the money.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Encouraging young players
Anything with "Celtic" in the name
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Encouraging young players
"Everybody wants to be David Beckham, but you try finding someone willing to give up their time to referee the primary school league."
Easy. My brother and his mates (all in their early to mid twenties) who coach and referee local U9-17 soccer leagues for free. Because they love the game.
I think you're idealizing the past, imagining a time when people just played for love and there was no capitalist mongering in the music. What about Coleman and Killoran and all those guys who were going on the stage in the 1920s and 30s?
I know a lot of people, including the guy who won the Scottish Young Musician of the Year award last year, who still like the banter of a good session. You're speaking in generalities, and the generalities might indeed be the case for some people In fairness, I have met them. I did once meet some very good young players in Ireland who were saying that they don't much like playing anymore unless they're getting paid. Luckily I have met even more musicians, including fairly successful professional ones, who don't share this attitude. There are plenty of young people playing for the love of it. All I am saying is that your generalities don't describe what's going on very well, with enough nuance.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Encouraging young players
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
"Maybe you should name the bands you believe to be in it only for the money."
I'm not going to risk offending anyone by answering that. But look and some of the top acts and ask yourself 'would they still be doing that if it didn't pay the mortgage?'
And I would turn the quewstion round and ask you - where are the bands who will happily pay for free? Or just for expenses?
If you can find them I'll happily book them!
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
It's great that bands such as The Chieftains could make money from the music they love....
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
From SS:
"I think you're idealizing the past, imagining a time when people just played for love and there was no capitalist mongering in the music. What about Coleman and Killoran and all those guys who were going on the stage in the 1920s and 30s? "
Ask yourself where all the small folk clubs have gone. Talk to the people who run the few that remain. Their struggling because they simply can't find acts they can afford. Big clubs in Edinburgh that used to regularly book five and six piece bands, and can now only afford to put on solo acts and duos.
We are just talking in generalities here - there have always been top acts commanding top dollar, and there probably will always be the floor spots who do it for nothing (although they are getting noticeable thinner on the ground).
But it is in the middle ground - the mediocre, and 'up and coming' bands - that things have changed: the general attitude used to be 'this is our hobby, and if we make a bit of dosh from it, so much the better. And if we ever get good enough, we might be able to turn professional.' Nowadays, right from the start, bands go out with an attitude of 'We are a professional band, so we deserve a proper wage.'
How many years did the Chieftain or the Dubliners gig for before they gave up their day jobs? How many bands today of that calibre can you name who still have day jobs?
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
"But look and some of the top acts and ask yourself 'would they still be doing that if it didn't pay the mortgage?'"
Sorry Skreech but your judging that on your own tastes. I know most of the folk in the 'top acts' in Scotland and they do not do it to pay the mortgage. If they are the top acts does it not follow they are the most popular. If they're the most popular with punters maybe some musicians enjoy what they're doing too.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Encouraging young players
I'm not tremendously "well-connected" but I know a few "top act" musicians ;) and they definitely just love to play. For a few, their favourite thing in the world is their weekly session. Go figire.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Encouraging young players
*figure
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Encouraging young players
Well if you guys are so well connected, and the 'top acts' are all so philanthropic, please could you get them to come and play for us out here in the sticks?
Bogman:
"Sorry Skreech but your judging that on your own tastes."
No I'm not. I deliberately haven't named any bands. I simply asked you to answer a question about the bands that you consider to be 'top acts'.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
You want a gig, you have to pay for it. I don't understand what the problem is here. You want them to come to your session? Send them an invite. Go make friends. I dunno.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Encouraging young players
I mean, it's just economics. It's just fair. You want us to drive there, set up the PA, put on a big show and you don't want to us pay us decently? No thanks. Sorry.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Encouraging young players
Not me personally in this regional case, I mean bands in general. I don't see what the problem is. You want a band for a performance? Pay them if they deserve it. You want them to come to a session? Go ask them. Make friends. I just don't get it.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Encouraging young players
you won't offend anybody by naming a band skreech.....
I'll name two Bands; Danu and Teada....they both tour...they both make money from Music....they both love the music....they both play good music (that one is my opinion).....
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
In my experience, beyond groups with lots of soundtrack tie-ins and multiple grammies - the Chieftains, that is - traditional music groups that are "in it for the money" are delusional.
In some professions, "making a living with a little left over to save toward retirement" is an entry-level wage. In folk music, it's pretty close to the top of the scale. (I don't consider the synthesizer-and-smoke dance-pop Celtorama bands to be in the traditional category, sorry, I'm a bigot that way)
So yes, I do believe that the top-flight musicians play for the love of it, although I imagine that somewhere around week 33 of the tour, they might get a little weary. The hard work of drive - set - play - schmooze - repeat will eventually start to wear on someone, and it'll show most in the "play" part.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Encouraging young players
Can somebody give me a name of a traditional Irish music band that are in it for the money? I'm not saying they don't exist but I can't name one..............
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
"I don't consider the synthesizer-and-smoke dance-pop Celtorama bands to be in the traditional category, sorry, I'm a bigot that way" hahaha I must see/hear one of these bands
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
But to emphasise my point I will name son=me names, at least on one side of the arguement.
Here in the back of beyond we do occasionally get 'names' to come and play for us as they pass by. Brian McNeill, Duncan Chisholm and Ivan Drever, Battlefield Band, Aly Bain and Phil Cunningham. All have played here knowing that even if they manage to fill the hall it will barely cover their costs. Aly and Phil in particular regularly play the small village halls, where they know they will make far less than for a couple of hours at the BBC.
In contrast, when we try to book even quite modest 'up and coming' bands - ones who have only been together a year or two, and who the general public have probably never of, they invariably price themselves out of the market.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
Well I can't argue with that seeing as I haven't tried to book an "up and coming band"
but ,ya, your not naming bands in it for d'money
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
Skreech, I answered your question the best I could. You didn't ask who I considered to be the top acts, you just asked about top acts. I can only take from that which bands are popular and who you may think are only in it for the money. All you can do is assume these folk don't enjoy what they're doing and are doing it for money. I just think there are very very few that do it for the money, in all honesty.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Encouraging young players
I'm just a lowly session musician -- not in any band nor trying to book them. All I can say is that I have seen quite a few "top flight" musicians enjoy a tune with whatever players, including the supremely mediocre ones like myself, tripped down to the pub last night.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Encouraging young players
*last night.... I meant "that night." I'm listening to my car being taken apart and it's distracting.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Encouraging young players
Bands that price themselves out of markets will learn if they're going to last. You don't always play just for the gate - sometimes you have to think of developing markets, or filling in a hole in the schedule.
Here's an example: if you're on your way from Portland on Thursday to Eugene on Friday to San Francisco on Wednesday next, you look for something in Northern California or the Bay on Monday or Tuesday. And you do that gig, even if it's a hundred bucks for the four of you. Why? Because that hundred bucks is gas money that you don't get if you're too fussy to take the gig, and because the twenty people who show up might just be in a CD-buying mood (I've seen nights where maybe two dozen people each bought three or four CDs, I've seen nights where a full house bought three or four CDs total, you never know) and you do it because playing for twenty new people is a chance to make twenty new people into your number-one fans - people who will never miss your shows, buy your CDs, and host your house concerts, because you put on a good show and caught them right.
So it's foolish for a band to be too rigid on price,
On the other hand, I have to jump to say that it's also foolish for a band to compromise their fee to play "exposure gigs" on prime nights in good markets. In the example above, the band had better be making a decent take in Portland, Eugene, and San Francisco, or they won't be around to take advantage of the market they developed in northern California.
That is, it's also foolish to be too flexible on price.
You can't win, I know.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Encouraging young players
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
"Skreech, I answered your question the best I could. You didn't ask who I considered to be the top acts, you just asked about top acts. I can only take from that which bands are popular and who you may think are only in it for the money. All you can do is assume these folk don't enjoy what they're doing and are doing it for money. I just think there are very very few that do it for the money, in all honesty."
I know I didn't ask who you think are top acts, because it is irrelevant. I simply asked you to think about top acts - ie. the ones that you think are 'top acts'.
Nor have I said anywhere that anyone plays just for the money. I am quite sure you are absolutely right and they all play first and foremost for the love of it. But what I AM saying is that there is a degree of expectation and hard-nosed business sense that wasn't necessarily there before. In tha past bands played, and if they managed to make enough to give up their day jobs, that was an added bonus to them. Today bands cut one CD and expect to be paid as professional musicians from that point on.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
Fair enough Skreech but you did say "But look and some of the top acts and ask yourself 'would they still be doing that if it didn't pay the mortgage?'" My answer would be yes as far as sessions etc go.
Jon is right, if a band prices themselves out the market they're not going to last. There is a lot more demand for paid bands nowadays but there are still a vast majority that do it part time.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Encouraging young players
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
"Fair enough Skreech but you did say "But look and some of the top acts and ask yourself 'would they still be doing that if it didn't pay the mortgage?'" My answer would be yes as far as sessions etc go. "
And I'd agree with that. The only point I was trying to make is that attitudes have changed, and amongst youngsters - or probably more acurately everyone today - there is much more of an expectation to get something back out of the music.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
Yes, I'd agree. IMO it's more to do with the extra opportunities than anything else though.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Encouraging young players
What's all this talk about professional gigs? I've played gigs with younger players, but what we (maybe it's just me) enjoy most is exchanging a few tunes. That's it ~ getting to know someone & hearing each other play. Listening, talking, having a session.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Encouraging young players
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Random_humour
"What's all this talk about professional gigs? I've played gigs with younger players, but what we (maybe it's just me) enjoy most is exchanging a few tunes. That's it ~ getting to know someone & hearing each other play. Listening, talking, having a session."
And that is brilliant. That is what will preserve the tradition.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by skreech
Re: Encouraging young players
There's two different things here, gigs and sessions. To me, it sounds like we're talking gigs. 'These kids and their bands, they make a demo, hang their sign out and expect to get paid like a Bothy.' etc. etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I'm reading.
I'm a middle aged duffer, but I still feel like I have to say something if 'da kids' are all getting painted with the same brush, when it comes to bands and gigs.
Jon has a perfectly nuanced view of the issue: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24878/comments#comment521008
All that said, it'd be a shame for young musicians not to participate in sessions, and to only play gigs. The bands I play in are made up of people I've sessioned with years, and still do currently.
Despite the fact that we don't do the touchy feely stuff real good-like on here, sessions are integral to the music and the sense of community that it brings. The shared appreciation for the music in an informal (read: not gig, aka 'performance') setting is vital. Or, at least I feel that it is.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Encouraging young players
SWFL, from what I see the vast majority the these young folk can't get enough sessions.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Encouraging young players
OK, enough, sorry. There's a topic, yes?
Encourage the young folks. How?
dfost, if you're still here, I see you're in Michigan. Not sure what it's like for you there, but like in SW Florida, I bet it's roughly the same.
In big US cities there are already resources there to encourage young players. There are healthy session scenes, dancing, teachers, and so on.
Here we're just lucky to have a cultural clubs and step dance schools, even though right in between the two big cities of Tampa and Miami. We're also blessed to have local set dance teachers and dancing groups that do ceilis.
So yes, go play for the schools, great idea. Do you teach? Do you have teachers there? You'll need to be able to direct interested kiddos to a teacher. They'll need family friendly sessions to go to, either public or private. You can host kitchen sessions if need be. They should go see dances, participate. Perhaps you're lucky enough to have a nearby dance school with 'the girls with the curls'. Your students could play for them, the dancers themselves will also show interest in playing.
I know you must have Contra dancing up there at the least! Henry Ford was a huge fan.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Encouraging young players
OK, just double checked your bio and your daughters are dancers. Duh on me, and you too! That's a perfect in right there. Why not grab the missus and go give your first demo for their school? I bet some of their classmates would totally be interested in learning to play.
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Encouraging young players
That's good news bogman!
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Encouraging young players
It's also true bogman contrary to what some would have people believe
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
" Today bands cut one CD and expect to be paid as professional musicians from that point on"
-trad bands?, you've come across this before then obviously? Personal Experience?
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Encouraging young players
Well, anyone working as a musician in a bar should be treating themselves as a professional musician. They should show up on time, know how to use their sound gear, know how to play their instruments, preferably have some degree of stage presence, they should drink enough to encourage the audience to do the same but not enough to endanger their own ability to play (this step is optional for the sober and the straightedge, but recommended for those who can follow it) and they should of course expect to be paid as professionals.
That's regardless of how many CDs they've recorded.
That just goes without saying - if you're not worth paying at a professional's wage, the bar owner shouldn't let you near his stage, and if you're good enough to play on his stage, you're good enough for him to pay you. What's hard about that?
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by Jon Kiparsky