SOUND SYSTEM: Seeking expert guidance from those who have put in the time and slog and have some experience with sound systems. I’ve the responsibility for selecting and purchasing a sound system for a not-for-profit group here. Its uses will range from support for dance classes, for little concerts, including in cavernous malls and out of doors, and for ceili(dh)s in Catholic community and village halls. It won't be used for pubs, where the preference is things unamped, acoustic, as is. I've been away from this particular involvement for some time. Doing many searches over time I see that our choices are loosely between a powered desk and passive speakers, or an unpowered desk and active speakers, or a portable all-in-one system. One idea is to start with bits and allow for the potential to build on those for the future. The other option would be portable kit, like Yamaha’s Stagpas 500, Fender’s Passport PRO 500, LD Systems Dave 15 PA, etc. For the board and satellite idea there’s makes like Mackie, JBL’s EON speakers, Allen & Heath, Studiomaster, Alto, LD Systems, HK Audio…
My past involvements have all been passive speakers, with a rack of kit and a mixing desk. As a result of this limitation I really don’t know what all he differences, pluses and minuses, and benefits there might be between one or the other, active or passive speakers? From what I’ve been reading and seeing, I like the EONS (JBLs) and the Mackies, good read anyway with regards to the technology they've put into their designs.
SPEAKER STANDS: Also needed are 'decent' speaker stands. I HATE those shight speaker stands I've seen about, cheapies that actually scare me, seeming too lightweight and poorly designed and 'flexible', not solid, bouncy castle stands. If anyone has experience with stands they'd recommend, or warn against, please do. Ages back I remember using something that allowed us to angle the speakers, for example when the kit and us were up on a high stage, we could 'nod' the speakers for better coverage, a better sound for the dancers.
MICROPHONES: On another point of inexperience, I've only rarely used a wireless mic for the times we've had a caller. That is another consideration for purchase ~ Sennheiser, Audio Technica, AKG, Shure ~ etc...? And just general mics for multiple uses? Again, my experiences there are dated. I've already acquired a few decent mics, during recent closedown sales. I only wish I'd bought two or more of the violin mic I'd bought, so they could also be used with squeezers, concertinas and other members of the free reed family of the bellow operated. I also remember seeing one group that used just one mic between them, one of those 8 pattern large diaphragm condenser mics that pick up on two sides, and it worked quite nicely, without feedback, but then they weren't using any monitors either. In the past I’ve used Shures, AKGs, Sennheisers, Neumanns, MXLs, Audio Technicas, Countrymans, etc., etc… But, it’s been some time since I was very active in the realm of ‘live’ sound technology.
I'm ready and expecting to get ribbed for this. Just to reaffirm ~ I PREFER THINGS UN-PLUGGED ~ ACOUSTIC RULES! But, sometimes there's a need for a little oomph! With my ideals as they are, around the fireplace or campfire, unadulterated, I really want as natural a result as possible coming out the speakers. I want a good, clean sound, not just volume.
Any and all ideas would be welcome, especially the useful and well considered, but, as always, I won't be surprised by ribbing or slagging or things bizarrely off topic, but try to make them heartfelt and at least imaginative and entertaining...
Regarding quality sound, it all starts and begins with the microphone doesn't it. But since recording isn't your primary goal, functionality and preference are all that matter. That being said, Ive had good experiences with the Meyer UPA, UPM and UPJ powered speaker systems set on Ultimate Support speaker stands. Mackie boards are top notch and Behringer boards are quite good and durable for the road warrior weekend pub blast.
A bit of quick feedback ceol (but not sound feedback!
We used passive speakers + mixeramp for many years, but switched to active speakers (Mackie) + mixer a couple of years back.
Keep in mind is that speakers have to be lifted onto stands, and that passive speakers are much heavier that passive ones!
However, the Mackies do deliver a good sound - albeit with some "hiss". We bought three of them - two for front-of- house, and just one for fold-back. The idea was, if a FOH cab failed at a gig, we would replace it with the FB cab and do without FB for the remainder of the gig.
Well, that's what actually happened - about nine months after we'd been using the gear. Turned out to only be a failed fuse, but dismantling that cab to get to that fuse was a nightmare. We could never have managed to do it at the gig.
And, of course, using active cabs you'll have extra trailing cables (power cables) across your stage or wherever ...
Hope that this info will assist you in your decision-making process ...
One more option - the one I prefer - is a modular system, with board, power amp, and speakers. My recommendation would be this or board and powered speakers. The separation of control from power is good design, since in future you might want to expand your mixing board or increase your power, and if you use a powered board you have to do both at once. If you get, say, a nice 8-channel Mackie board and some combination of power amp and speakers, you might later on find that you need a 12- or 16-channel board for some gigs. You can buy, borrow, or rent that, and use the same speakers and amplifier. Same goes for the power amp and speakers. And, if you expand in both directions over time, you end up with four useable configurations instead of two - so you could have mixing boards suited to small or large ensembles, each of which feeds amplification for small or large rooms. That's a nice level of flexibility.
I haven't been keeping up with the current sound gear, but Mackie was always an excellent mixer when I was following these things, and JBL is certainly a good maker of speakers.
I'd stay away from stuff like the Passport - when I looked at those the only use I could imagine for it was for a small out-door public-speaking engagement near a power outlet. Easy to use, I suppose, but there's not much you can do with it.
Mix's observation about the added weight of powered speakers is correct. There's also the slight added noise of sending line-level signal through long cables - these both are a bit of weight in the pan for a power amp and passive speakers.
However, the powered speakers are still a pretty viable option - most people I've talked to seem pretty happy with the sound, and it means one less box to carry, which is significant.
Mackie's would be new to me. I've been inside Sudiomaster and Allen & Heath boards before and was impressed, very clean, nice workmanship. I get the same feeling from Mackie though I've never worked with them before. Our studio monitor setup is JBL, and for being robust and a decent sound I've no complaints. If one dropped on your foot you'd need to call an ambulance.
I have experience in pro-audio, both live and recording, spent 3 years in pro-audio sales and did some consulting. I'll tell you that function, durability will be big considerations besides the sound.
For you application, it seems to me that powered speakers would be a good choice, less need to heavy amplifiers, especially since powered speakers have come a long way. Mackie, JBL, or Yamaha will serve you well in that regard. But I understand the argument against them that Mix brings up.
You are right about both Studiomaster and Allen & Heath. I'm a particular fan of the latter. For clean channels and excellent EQ, you can't do much better. Mackie boards are also excellent. JNE must have gotten a good Behringer unit. I used to avoid selling Behringer after I kept getting return after return, mainly because of quality control issues, but also because of noisy channels.
Jon Kiparsky is right. I would actually stay away from any of those self-contained systems. They're not bad, but you can't really build on those systems. Put your own component system together.
I'm a big microphone nut. You can't beat the sure SM57 and SM58 for sheer workhorse durability, but for sound quality you can get better for about the same price. Sennheiser and Audix models in the same price range are perhaps slightly less durable, but the sound is discernably better. A spot comparison will bear this out. Or you can upgrade to Shure Beta series mics and they are excellent. Hearing is believing. I used to spot test the Shure SM58 against the Sennheiser E835 and the Audix OM2 (same price point), and buyer would opt with either of the latter two every time, unless indestructibility was their only concern, in which case I said "take the SM58" and call it a day.
Jon already covered exactly what I was going to say. I would also hope for at least a bit of parametric EQ or maybe a simple notch filter for the monitor mix.
Ceol. Me again. Forgot to mention. In my kneck of the woods we're lucky enough to have a brilliant PA guy. Surname, James - known to all as "Jesse James". All the local bands (not just ceilidh bands) know him, and use him for pa repairs, supplies etc. He's been around since the year dot, and what he doesn't know about pa could be written on the back of a very small postage stamp. He's also a larger-than-life local character! If you've heard of Fred Dibnah, Jesse is the electronics equivalent!
Indeed, it was Jesse who quickly diagnosed the fault with our Mackie, and showed me where the awkwardly placed fuse was fitted, in case it should ever fail again.
Jesse told me that there were two build locations for the Mackies - the USA and the Far East. He said that the build quality of the ones built in the USA was much better.
I'm not a sound engineer by any stretch of the imagination, but I know a singer who tried a new Sennheiser radio mike which he had to ditch halfway through a show because there was a rainstorm a couple of miles away and the mike was picking up the lightning. I use a flute mike on my fiddle as well as on the flute -- just un-velcro it and slip it under the tailpiece. It is very light, but needs a pre-amp.
Behrenger is basically a Mackie clone. The layout is almost identical, and the sound's good enough if you're not too fussy, If you can't afford the Mackie, Behrenger is reasonable for live work.
As for microphones, the Shure SM series has a lot of fans, mainly because they're not really bad at anything except women's voices - although I'd probably try them last for low whistle. If it puts out a reasonable amount of volume and it's not too high up, the SM will do a decent job of it. Soprano whistles? Sure, as long as they're not one of those quiet Clarkes. Fiddles? Sure, if you get it up close enough.
For general purpose work, have a couple of those on hand.
However, they're not very good for anything - while they'll generally work, there's usually a mic that will work better for any particular job. So if you are interested in specialising, and there's a pro audio outlet near you, you should probably go and see what's available. Set up every mic that's in or near your price range for a given application, and just see what each sounds like. You'd be surprised what a difference it can make - a great mic for a flute might sound lousy for the fiddle, and so forth.
I'd have to disagree - an SM57 can sound fantastic with a woman's voice. SM58s colour the sound slightly around the region where most men sound more gritty - so the men sound slightly more manly (generally a good thing). SM57s are used for women and backing vocalists in particular as they are a bit more weedy in the lower regions, but have a nice peak that helps the engineers differentiate between the different singers more easily. They are extremely rugged and spare windscreens (the grey ball on the end that you sing into) are available for them, saving money in the long-run. Most other makes are less easy to get spares for.
If you're after a radio mic, then Trantec offer very good value for money and are very decent. AKG likewise. But if you can afford Sennheiser then do as they're well above the others in terms of quality and versatility in the price range.
Jon Kiparsky is right on his appraisal of mic use and choice - if you go in to any decent music shop that sells mics, they should have no problems setting up a whole bunch of mics for you to try at once. When I work in the studio this is one of the first things I do with a new singer or instrument.
I use a Yamaha stagepass in my work on a daily basis and have found it both reliable and a great sound for the price. The great thing about it is that there's space in the back of one of the speakers for all your wires and even a couple of microphones, whilst the other one holds the mixer, which is removable for flexibility. I also use a variety of other powered speakers and passive and the Yamaha is surprisingly light by comparison to the others. I would have no hesitation recommending it for your proposed setup. Depends on how many microphones you need, though - there's a limited number of inputs.
I think, then, that you need to know what you want to do.
I've used a Passport 250 (the one with the Bose speakers) for some years in every environment from out of doors open spaces to up to medium sized indoor halls. The battery pack is very handy for situations where AC isn't available. And, when we went out with 5 plus a PA mike we used a Mackie 1202 fed into the line inputs of the Passport. Everything we've done with it has worked very well. Mikes with it are OK, though not great.
That said, if I were going to put together a system that was to grow and expand in uses in unknown ways I'd go with components. That is easier to upgrade and expand bit by bit, and when you get to fairly large and noisy rooms where the Passport might not do the job you can have more powerful stuff in place.
I have been happy with my JBL Eon Power10s. Very lightweight and clean-sounding. Not much bass (none really, by rock-band standards) but fine for my purposes. I also have a pair of alumin(i)um tripod speaker stands--also lightweight but plenty stable and sturdy enough for the job. The only monitor (foldback) speaker I own is a Roland CM-30 cube monitor--a wonderfully versatile little box. Takes multiple inputs, so it can serve as both mixer and monitor speaker for small groups (only one XLR input, though).
One caution: Don't go overboard on the mixer. Some of them just have too many knobs for most of us--filters, compression, A/B monitor submixes, etc.--and can be a nightmare for anybody who isn't trained to operate them.
Forking the thread a little, it's actually very easy to operate these boards, even the ones with too many knobs. The trick is to look at one channel strip and figure out what each section does. It's usually organized in a pretty sensible way, with the flow of signal proceeding from the top down, or from the back of the board (where the signal comes in) to the front. So you have your input trim, then your effects sends, then your eq, then your pan, then your gain. Once you spot those, you know where they are for each channel, and there's 85% of the board taken care of. Then you find your master volume, your monitor level, your effects sends, and that's most of it.
The main thing, though, is to remember that most of the board is just the same small set of knobs repeated over and over - and that if you set them right in the sound check, you won't really need to touch them during the performance.
We had howling feedback problems, no matter how we adjusted the gain, compression, and effects; the "Group 1-2" and "Group 3-4" submixes for monitors were also a bit much, for our situation. (I consulted an expert later. He guessed that the piper's closely grouped multiple condenser mics were probably to blame.)
The point: Consider who is likely to be operating the beast. For non-professionals--or people who would rather play tunes than tinker with technology--the simpler, the better.
I've also used thomann.de (as recommended by colmh above) - we bought our DI boxes from them.
The ones that we bought are called "Millennium". Just basic passive DI boxes, but very robust and well-engineeered - I can recommend them. After exchange raate conversion and shipping, the boxes worked out at about £10 each.
I can also recommend Absolute Music Solutions of (Poole, Dorset) as a PA supplier:
We bought our speaker stands from Absolute (sorry, I can't remember what make they were). The stands that we bought are stable, but also light in weight. They don't however have the tilting feature that you're looking for. One way to get extra stability is to buy stands rated to support bigger speakers than the ones that you are actually using.
We also bought some good padded covers for our speakers from Absolute. Not Mackie "own brand", but they fit the speakers perfectly, and were much cheaper.
Good advice from "tuckered out" above. PA is essential in some situations, but personally I regard it as a necessary evil!
So unless you are a PA geek or a professional sound engineer, it's a good idea to keep the mixer simple.
The ideal mixer for me would just have one button marked "good sound" - the problem is, they haven't invented one like this yet!
Tuck - I'd agree with your expert, multiple condenser mics on a stage is a pretty good place to start looking for your feedback problem. I never had any luck with pipes and mics - this is a case where I think a big stage in a good room and in-ear monitors would make life a lot easier.
Looking at the board you were using, it doesn't look too tremendously complicated. I can't quite make out all of the labels in the picture, but it looks like a pretty standard layout, and pretty close to the minimum you need if you're going to actually get some use out of it.
There are a few tricks you can learn that'll make your life easier - if you learn how to set the input gain properly, you'll have a much easier time - do it right, and you won't have to touch the board after you set the levels. Every microphone that you can get rid of from your stage is a little less chance of feedback - all stringed instruments should be going through pickups and DI boxes, and probably the piper doesn't need all of those microphones that he thinks he needs. Less monitor level is better. Condenser mics are great, as long as you keep them in their boxes, and the boxes locked in the trunk of a vehicle that you don't bring to the gig. And so forth - lots of little things. But don't blame the soundboard - learn how to use it.
I agree Jon, it's always better to know what you're doing. But ideally, if you are providing a sound system to be run by whoever shows up, it's better to get one with fewer knobs. Fewer things to go wrong.
With that in mind, for ceolachan's situation, I'd suggest a simple powered mixer (with lots of mic inputs--you can't put pickups on singers) and passive speakers. One knob for main volume, another knob for monitor volume. Mackie makes some good ones. There's a Mackie rig like that at a local pub that has been going trouble-free (I think) for at least 10 years.
Here's what I use for regular gigging. It serves well for a duo to a 5 person band, in rooms that are not more than 400. Clearly this is not top of the line stuff, but it all works very well and sounds great if not pushed too hard.
Monitors
Fender 150 (Speaker and head package - needs stands)
or
Roland Cube CM30's powered monitors (on stands)
Mics
Callers - Hand held Shure or AKG - be sure they're FCC compliant (rules just changed)
Band - Condensers
AKG C1000S or ~$200 ea
MXL 604 ~$150 ea
or
Behringer B5 ~100 ea
Mics Dynamic
Shure SM58
Mic preamps for phantom (not required, but nice to have)
ART TubeMP ~$40
DI (for direct inputs from piano or guitar)
ART PDB (passive) or
ART Xdirect (powered 9v)
Cords
You'll need a good complement of XLR cords and TS cords, and a few short TRS cords.
Don't scrimp on the cords. A great device to have is a Behringer CT100 Cord Tester.
Figure 2 cords for each mic. The JBL P15's use XLR inputs. They also each need power.
You'd be wise to get a power conditioner that you can plug everything into to avoid electrical line noise. A power conditioner costs about $60.
The most important thing, other than how it sounds, is where are you going to put all of this in order to avoid having to cart it around. This system is pretty compact and easily fits into a station wagon.
I've used my Passport PD250 for many wedding receptions and parties, but would definitely want something bigger and more controllable for a concert venue.
I had the misfortune to be lent a Yamaha’s Stagpas 500 for an outdoor event last weekend.
The sound was good, the mixer was adequate, although it lacks all the knobs you need for dealing with feedback and bad acoustics - I think if I was using it for a travelling band I'd buy a separate desk.
But the real problem was the PA protection circuitry. If you turn the wick up above 3/4 it will cut out after a couple of minutes. If the knob goes up to 10 I expect to be able to use it at 10. And having a PA that keeps cutting out makes you look very unprofessional.
I don't have much to add to this discussion, because I am an idiot on these matters, I mostly haul the gear for our group, while the others picked it out, made the purchases, hook everything up, and balance all the knobs and switches.
Agree with the people above that the small 'package' systems are nice for small stuff, but pretty much limited to their original capabilities, with very little opportunities to expand or modify what they can do.
Our sound system has a head with a mixing board built into it, two big monitors (which can also be put on the speaker posts and used as speakers themselves in smaller rooms), and two big main speakers, which are hard to lift by yourself. Which leads me to my main point, which is to agree with Mark--be sure and consider the weight of your gear--I am in a group with two women and a disabled vet, and not getting any younger myself, so sometimes by the time we perform, I am exhausted, having carried most of the heavy stuff.
I don't think anyone has mentioned it above, but at a wedding last summer, we preceded a DJ who had these speakers that looked like fat speaker poles, but with no speakers on top. Apparently there was an array of smaller speakers inside the poles, which sounded pretty darn good and plenty loud. I think they might have been Bose speakers. Watching them bring in their gear, I was VERY jealous of how light everything was.
Too right - those Bose speakers are lovely, easy to set up, give a really good output and sound beautifully clear and cost more than most of us can afford
Mix ~ I like the sound of your resident electrician, Jesse James, wishing he were nearby. I have great respect for those that share their knowledge, as he did in helping you sort out your speaker problem. And it's someone that is a "larger-than-life local character".
Thanks Colm and Mix, I've used 'Thomann' before but not 'MusicStore' or 'Absolute Music Solutions'. I'll check both out.
I've used Sures, and I know what you mean by durable, you could use them to hammer in tent stakes, and they're OK for their intended use too, but over time my preference and respect for condensers continues to grow.
I have to agree with Jon on navigating boards, once you've gotten the gist of it you're OK, but size can be an issue for some, and a small board isn't going to have the extra choices, switches. I've also used Yamaha kit, amps and boards, and found them pretty decent, and not so confusing, but it pays to get familiar with any kit before you open it up for use at an event. Putting more than one condenser on a piper is, IMO, mad, asking for trouble. On the whole, from my limited experience, boards are mostly user friendly, but, like with anything, it requires some understanding and applied use and experimentation. That said, there are plenty of small and simple mixing boards available, even pocket sized ones. I would like to have the paras if possible, and at a minimum a sweepable mid.
Jon Kiparsky: "Every microphone that you can get rid of from your stage is a little less chance of feedback" ~ Yes! But I love condensers, though I don't use them in every situation or with every musicians, just those I know well and can trust, and for myself.
tuckered out ~ I'm not that brave, I'd NEVER provide sound and kit to be "run by whoever shows up". I have to say, it's basically 'HANDS OFF!' in my book... But there is some great basic kit available if you're willing to hand the knobs over to someone else, who themselves might be a knob. I just wouldn't risk it.
'Ultimate Support' stands have had a few mentions. We've used Quik Lok stands before, if not speaker stands, and we've been pretty happy with that kit.
Toppish, thanks for the list and recommendations...
Along with everything else, I don't believe in skimping on cabling. Good quality cables DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!
Mark Harmer ~ "it's such a pain carrying big, heavy things that fall apart!!" ~ !!! Yup! Oh my achin' back...
But, after all your contributions I am no longer considering the all-in-one systems and instead will 'build' kit, starting with the bare necessities and letting it grow from there.
The Bose poles are also quite limited, more for a one-person show, or two, three at most... As well the idea of haaving a sound source you can't raise above the heads of an audience, or dancers, is, IMO, nuts...
Thanks for all the contributions, though I see a few of the expected are missing as yet, maybe later.
Sorry, I misunderstood the scenario. If you're the one who runs it, no problem, get a board with lots of features and learn to make the most of them.
My rig has been quite adequate for small-to-medium rooms (up to 250, say) and nothing in it weighs over 25 pounds (12 kg?). Although my compact mixer (by Alesis) has only 4 mic inputs.
Weight is why I passed on the powered mixer idea, and the Bose tower systems--besides the high price, I believe the base of the tower weighs around 40-45 pounds. At 23 pounds each, the EON Power10s provide a lot of sound for very little weight. (I wasn't always such a wimp, but a couple of serious strain injuries have encouraged "the better part of valor.") The EONs are also shaped to serve as floor monitors, if you later get some bigger main speakers.
Around here, the Shure SM58 is the standard workhorse stage microphone. Good enough, soundwise, and very feedback resistant.
And I personally wouldn't sweat the "tilt-able" feature of the speaker stands. Just set them up at shoulder height and run them loud enough for the dancers to hear.
That's it for me. I'd rather play fiddle than fiddle with gear, any day.
Ceol - FYI, Jesse lives in Bristol, UK. He does charge for PA repairs, but his charges are very reasonable, and are normally carried out "while you wait".
A typical trip to Jesse's for a PA repair goes something like this ...
Jesse: "What have you got for me now then! Put it up on the bench so that I can have a proper look at it"
Jesse (again) "Ah, You know what the usual problem with these is, don't you?"
Me: "Err, no ...."
(Jesse explains the design fault of the item concerned. I listen intently for ten minutes to a complex technical explanation, hardly understanding a word of it!)
(Jesse commences the repair)
... some time later ...
(Jesse desolders a 3 ohm resistor (or whatever) and holds it up in the air, beaming broadly)
Jesse: "THAT's what your problem is! Now, go to the back of my workshop, third shelf from the top, fifth section from the left - I think you'll find four boxes there. Get me the green box with the yellow label!"
(I fetch the required box. It's the right one! How *does* he remember where all this stuff is?)
(Jesse,usually wearing a green eye-shade and looking like a telegraph operator from Wells Fargo, solders in the new component, reassembles, and connects it up to a full sound system. I'm then treated to an ear splitting rendering of the Shadows playing "Apache".
Jesse: "You know why I'm using this recording to test it, don't you?"
Me: (Hands over ears!) "Err, no ..."
Jesse "It's got all the frequencies - listen to that bass - now listen to that treble .... "
It now well over an hour since I entered Jesse's workshop ...
Me: "Well, thanks very much Jesse - how much do I owe you?
Jesse: "Oh, gives us a fiver, and b**gger off!" .. and here's a couple of spare 3 ohm resistors. You'll know exactly what to do if it ever goes wrong again!"
More positive comment on the EONs, thanks 'tuckered out'. As to d'ruthers, me too... It might not just be me taking responsibility for the group gear, especially with regards to d'ruthers, but it won't be openly accessibly, only someone who has a ken will get to twiddles knobs... The ideal, as oft repeated, is to get it right and then have very little more to do with it once the settings are made, other than to adjust for those changes in atmosphere and population...
Nice one Mix, I loved it...
One point, I've NEVER used a DI box, tell us more...
our ceilidh band, complete, is 14 muscians... and with no money, I had to chooose an not too expenseive sound system : a "Jesses James" friend got us an outfit that's been satisfactory for 2 and a half years now :
speakers : 2 samson active. I set the volume level quite high, so there's less purring sound.
Mixer Allen and Heath ZX22, 16 tracks
berhinger feedback killer
2 samson active monitors. that we line up with those of some of the band, usually ending up with 6 monitors (2 channels)
Mikes : everybody has his own mike and cables. I use AKG C409 for the box and a guitar AKG C401pickup for the hammered dulcimer. Herself has a Beyer Dynamic NE 500S (wireless). So, no mike stands, just one for the flute, everybody else has pickups. the active speakers are certainly heavy... but with that number of musicians, it's ok.... But I do lust for some speakers I've seen, small, light and with an excellent sound...
With our setting we have a reasonnably good sound. We never play too loud, we use it so that we can be heard above the din of people talking and dancing loudly...
But of course we prefer, when we can, to play without the sound system... it's so easier...
@ ceol - glad the you enjoyed the anectdote - one of many that I could tell about that particular character - if I had the time, and folks wanted to listen ...
But to answer your question ...
A DI (direct injection)box, is an electronic device that connects a high impedance, line level, unbalanced output signal to a low impedance mic level balanced input, usually via XLR connector.
Many musicians who expect to be playing via PA often have their own DI box. You connect your instrument to the DI box using a lead fitted with quarter-inch jacks, then connect the DI box to the mixer using an XLR lead.
As mentioned, we use basic passive DI boxes, but sophisticated active ones are available that need batteries or a power supply, and also have graphic equaliser and other controls incorporated.
We played an enjoyable outdoor gig this morning at a farmers' market (using PA), but now off to a nice (accoustic!!!) pub session this evening, so must dash ...
Anyone used the Carlsbro flat panel speakers? I heard them at a Celidh in a long, narrow hall and they seemed really quiet up close, but the sound was equally loud (and very, very clear and detailed) at the other end of the room. Quite amazing!
Don't think they'd take serious volume but I use a single one plugged into my battery operated harp amp for outdoor gigs and it sounds wonderful.
I wonder if anyone here has tried them on a more serious footing perhaps with their subwoofer?
@Mark, I wonder if there's a focusing effect at work? You can get it with musical instruments. A professional cellist was playing a concerto with us once and during a break in the rehearsal he was talking about his Strad cello and how it sounded quieter to someone close to it than someone farther away. He illustrated this effect to us as well, and described it as focusing the sound. Or perhaps it's a directional frequency-linked effect, like a violin has with remote miking - which is why in concert halls the mike is sometimes suspended quite some way above the soloist.
Haven't seen anything on mic placement except for every instrument has it's own mic(s).
I have a good Mackie mixer and active PA. I'm going to use it for an outdoor gig for our session band: one of each of: pipes, concertina, fiddle, banjo, harp, whistle, and bohran. The harp has an internal mic.
Here's the question: I'm planning to use two Rode large-diaphram condener mics for the whole thing. My impression is that feedback is not as much of a problem when playing outside, but what do you folks think of the plan?
If I carefully position the mics and players, could I get a good representation out of the PA? I don't think we need a monitor speaker because we play without amplification all the time.
I have some Rode (nt1a - don't know what yours are) and they're great mics but they will suffer if there's any wind about, so I'd be a bit wary about using them outdoors - but I guess you'll soon know if they will work by blowing gently anywhere near them. If there's any problem it will be very very obvious!
Good point Mark. I hadn't thought about how the weather could affect things. Do you think wind screens would be adequate protection? Is there some other mic model that would work better for this application?
Just out of curiosity, what's your budget luike? Tight?
If it is tight Behringer offer great value for money.
On the SM 57 versus SM58 thing. They are both affordable dynamic mics. For what it's worth, if you take the wind shield away from the the SM58 you've more or less got yourself an SM57.
I'm with Mark on the use of any large diaphragm condenser mic outside... The idea made me wince. Maybe you'll luck out and it will be an absolutely still day, but what are the chances of that? The Rodes are lovely mics...
Ceolachan - The question on DIs has been more or less handled, but I should clarify that one of the advantages of an active DI is that provides some level of preamping, which reduces line noise between the instrument and the board. This is quite separate from the impedance matching function that a passive DI fills.
There are various DI/preamp systems that add various degress of features, from EQ through compression, effects, tuners, and the like. As I say, the Baggs box is the one I like, but you've got a lot of choices in this regard if you want something to improve your signal between guitar and mixer.
I'm also wary of the large-diaphragm mics in an outdoor setting, but it will depend to some degree on the surroundings. If you're on a stage with a shell behind you and some some sort of protection from the side, and you're gathered around the mics, you might be okay.
I know I've seen people use such mics outdoors, so it's not impossible, but it's a bit of a gamble.
I'll say this, though, for that instrumentation, if the wind isn't a problem your two mics solution is probably the best approach to use, especially if you don't anticipate using monitors.
Check out the Bose L1 system. We've been using a pair of L1s for a couple of years and LOVE them. They're modular, light and VERY easy to set up and break down--and they eliminate the need for stage monitors. I highly recommend the Model II because of the extra versatility. And yes, they're pricey, but IMHO, they are worth every penny if you frequently have to haul your own PA to gigs. Microphones, on the other hand, are a subjective experience. There are a bunch of very good, reasonably priced mics on the market. We generally use Shure SM58s for vocals and "other" instruments. Acoustic string and reed instruments go direct into the Bose.
DIs ~ I think I've figured out their lack in my past, either because they weren't readily available, or more likely, we were pretty much all acoustic, and the few times we had a keyboard that was managed otherwise. As far as I can remember we never had an electric guitar or bass, only acoustic and uprights, and those miked one way or another. And, surprisingly, usually a piano, more often an upright, which we creatively miked.
On outdoor events, I know we did use condensers, with wind screens, etc., but never large diaphragm mics. Even with a shell behind and around us, sometimes that wasn't a benefit, and 'size matters' there too. Mics, small diaphragms, used included AKGs, Audio Technicas, countrymans and Neumanns. Two of us handled it all, but while I was more a grunt and the systems designer, and owned a good share of our kit, not completely ignorant, the second member was more in tune with our gear, and owned the board.. We both managed it in turn, and set up the mics. In outdoor gigs we used mics per instrument, rather than collectively, in part to avoid problems with picking up outside sounds, such as wind.
More challenging was the environment, and we ran into some peculiar quirks with things like the terrain and temperature inversions, layers of different air temperatures that affected how the sound was received by the audience. In one case, up on a stage and the audience in a geographic bowl, we discovered they were hearing very little, because of just such a difference in the layer of air temperatures. Crazy, but doing outdoor gigs was crazy, always different, and also good kick, fun, in part because of the challenges. I'll never stop learning, and I am generally aware of how much I don't know, and how challenging my own ignorance can be. Thank goodness for folks like Mix's Jesse James, Jon, Mark, and others who are willing to share their experiences and knowledge.
My shyness at using large diaphragm mics outside is based on a limited experience there, not wanting to repeat bad or troublesome experiences. Also, thinking back, dynamic mics, like the old Shures, and some interesting, I believe Electro Voice and Audio Techica, neodymium ones, seemed to be less hassle.
GDub ~ yes, the idea of monitor and speakers all in one, I like the 'basic' idea. I'll have to get past my biases and give them a trial, but the price is the biggest deterrent, and a general distrust of the BS Bose keeps bandying about, something akin to Apple Macs...
On the later point, software problems aside, several of the latter, Apple-Macs, owned by friends, have not lasted as long as my old PC here, however cute the kit is... But that's veering wildly off topic now.
FWIW, I use an HK Audio system with a Behringer 2442 FX Pro Desk, Shure SM 58, Sennhauser, Behringer C2 SDC and DI's through some mic pre's
Apart from the basic gear you need, I do think that the benefit of being able to insert compressors, limiters, gates, dynamics etc also gives you greater control of the sound.
For example; A Behringer Multicom Pro XL will give you 4 independant channels of the above which can be inserted into your desk channel inserts ie Gating to reduce bleed etc
pkev ~ tell me more about the 'HK' side of your kit...
I have been convinced that the idea of being able to build on a system is the best way to go, rather than some of the all-in-one kit I'd not previously knocked off the list of possibilities. In a sense, Bose fits that all-in-one definition, with the same limitations, and others, which in my mind outweighs, at the moment, any advantages, such as portability...
About the Bose -- I like and use L1s and T3s, and they work great if they're in the right setting.
But if you're taking cavernous malls and outdoors, to potentially large crowds of people, I think you're better off going with a modular system, like those suggested here, that you can expand if necessary. if you use a mixer and powered speakers, for instance, you can just add a few speakers if the crowd or hall is really big. Means more electrical cords, yes, but that's about the only issue, aside from a little delay coming from the back of the room, which you're not likely to hear anyway.
I've had a welcome email giving a good account of EVs speakers, their SX300e, which they'd borrowed for a gig and liked so much they're ordering a pair. I've had good experience, if limited, with EVs too. For some idea of the speakers I've considered, passive or active ~ makes only, in alphabetical order ~
DB / EV / HK / JBL / Mackie / QSC / RFC / Yamaha ~
I'm still feeling some temptation to go with passive speakers and a powered board, possibly something like Mackie's PPM1008, but nothing is final, except that Bose isn't a consideration, or the portable all-in-one kit. I'm still not convinced one side or the other with regards to passive vs. active speakers. I'll need to read more and hear more...
Yes, the concept of bits vs. combinations, and that considered combination of the mixer-amp, such as from Mackie and Allen & Heath. 'Bits' are also more easily upgraded. The other consideration is the 'chain', that the more you have between the source and the output, the speakers, the more chance there is for problems in the sound, not just the equipment... The most direct route is generally the cleanest, the best... And then there's new kit that can clean things up, like the DBX DriveRack PX powered speaker optimizer, or a power line conditioner...
The temptation to go with something of a lower count kit wise, such as a powered mixer, speakers and stands, is attractive on that point ~ less to fuss with. SPF is applicable to every point of connectivity, starting on the source end with the microphones, but not forgetting the instruments and musicians...
Back to the L1s... After hauling heavy PA gear for many years I got tired of being a burro. I still have a nice Mackie rig, Bag End speakers (HEAVY!) and monitors. Then there's the mic and speaker stands--and the amps and instruments (I usually bring 2 guitars, a pedalboard and gigbag with cords and stuff--my wife plays accordion...). All in all a nice setup, but a real pain to load, unload, setup, break down, reload, unload. Once I got the L1s I haven't given a thought to hauling the big stuff. And yes, the L1s take a bit of tweaking to get right (including optimum stage placement), but once you've got them down you're always good to go. We've used our in a lot of different settings (both indoors and out) with our 8 piece band and have yet to be disappointed or not loud enough--mind you we don't play arenas . So get the system you want, but remember there is a much easier on your back way to get good sound.
Gear ain't so bad on your back if you know how to lift it. Unless you're loading in an arena show, stacking towers, there's not a lot on the stage that an able-bodied person can't lift and carry from the car to the stage. It's just that you have to know how to do it. There are two secrets that you have to know.
The first thing is to know the roadie's mantra:
Lift with your knees, make two trips, and keep your load centered.
The second thing, and this might be even more effective than the first: hire young players with young knees.
It's amazing how easy the load-in will go if you just follow these two rules.
AMPing up!
AMPing up!
SOUND SYSTEM: Seeking expert guidance from those who have put in the time and slog and have some experience with sound systems. I’ve the responsibility for selecting and purchasing a sound system for a not-for-profit group here. Its uses will range from support for dance classes, for little concerts, including in cavernous malls and out of doors, and for ceili(dh)s in Catholic community and village halls. It won't be used for pubs, where the preference is things unamped, acoustic, as is. I've been away from this particular involvement for some time. Doing many searches over time I see that our choices are loosely between a powered desk and passive speakers, or an unpowered desk and active speakers, or a portable all-in-one system. One idea is to start with bits and allow for the potential to build on those for the future. The other option would be portable kit, like Yamaha’s Stagpas 500, Fender’s Passport PRO 500, LD Systems Dave 15 PA, etc. For the board and satellite idea there’s makes like Mackie, JBL’s EON speakers, Allen & Heath, Studiomaster, Alto, LD Systems, HK Audio…
My past involvements have all been passive speakers, with a rack of kit and a mixing desk. As a result of this limitation I really don’t know what all he differences, pluses and minuses, and benefits there might be between one or the other, active or passive speakers? From what I’ve been reading and seeing, I like the EONS (JBLs) and the Mackies, good read anyway with regards to the technology they've put into their designs.
SPEAKER STANDS: Also needed are 'decent' speaker stands. I HATE those shight speaker stands I've seen about, cheapies that actually scare me, seeming too lightweight and poorly designed and 'flexible', not solid, bouncy castle stands. If anyone has experience with stands they'd recommend, or warn against, please do. Ages back I remember using something that allowed us to angle the speakers, for example when the kit and us were up on a high stage, we could 'nod' the speakers for better coverage, a better sound for the dancers.
MICROPHONES: On another point of inexperience, I've only rarely used a wireless mic for the times we've had a caller. That is another consideration for purchase ~ Sennheiser, Audio Technica, AKG, Shure ~ etc...? And just general mics for multiple uses? Again, my experiences there are dated. I've already acquired a few decent mics, during recent closedown sales. I only wish I'd bought two or more of the violin mic I'd bought, so they could also be used with squeezers, concertinas and other members of the free reed family of the bellow operated. I also remember seeing one group that used just one mic between them, one of those 8 pattern large diaphragm condenser mics that pick up on two sides, and it worked quite nicely, without feedback, but then they weren't using any monitors either. In the past I’ve used Shures, AKGs, Sennheisers, Neumanns, MXLs, Audio Technicas, Countrymans, etc., etc… But, it’s been some time since I was very active in the realm of ‘live’ sound technology.
I'm ready and expecting to get ribbed for this. Just to reaffirm ~ I PREFER THINGS UN-PLUGGED ~ ACOUSTIC RULES! But, sometimes there's a need for a little oomph! With my ideals as they are, around the fireplace or campfire, unadulterated, I really want as natural a result as possible coming out the speakers. I want a good, clean sound, not just volume.
Any and all ideas would be welcome, especially the useful and well considered, but, as always, I won't be surprised by ribbing or slagging or things bizarrely off topic, but try to make them heartfelt and at least imaginative and entertaining...
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
Regarding quality sound, it all starts and begins with the microphone doesn't it. But since recording isn't your primary goal, functionality and preference are all that matter. That being said, Ive had good experiences with the Meyer UPA, UPM and UPJ powered speaker systems set on Ultimate Support speaker stands. Mackie boards are top notch and Behringer boards are quite good and durable for the road warrior weekend pub blast.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: AMPing up!
A bit of quick feedback ceol (but not sound feedback!
We used passive speakers + mixeramp for many years, but switched to active speakers (Mackie) + mixer a couple of years back.
Keep in mind is that speakers have to be lifted onto stands, and that passive speakers are much heavier that passive ones!
However, the Mackies do deliver a good sound - albeit with some "hiss". We bought three of them - two for front-of- house, and just one for fold-back. The idea was, if a FOH cab failed at a gig, we would replace it with the FB cab and do without FB for the remainder of the gig.
Well, that's what actually happened - about nine months after we'd been using the gear. Turned out to only be a failed fuse, but dismantling that cab to get to that fuse was a nightmare. We could never have managed to do it at the gig.
And, of course, using active cabs you'll have extra trailing cables (power cables) across your stage or wherever ...
Hope that this info will assist you in your decision-making process ...
- Mix
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: AMPing up!
Correction! I meant to say that active speakers are much heavier that passive ones!
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: AMPing up!
One more option - the one I prefer - is a modular system, with board, power amp, and speakers. My recommendation would be this or board and powered speakers. The separation of control from power is good design, since in future you might want to expand your mixing board or increase your power, and if you use a powered board you have to do both at once. If you get, say, a nice 8-channel Mackie board and some combination of power amp and speakers, you might later on find that you need a 12- or 16-channel board for some gigs. You can buy, borrow, or rent that, and use the same speakers and amplifier. Same goes for the power amp and speakers. And, if you expand in both directions over time, you end up with four useable configurations instead of two - so you could have mixing boards suited to small or large ensembles, each of which feeds amplification for small or large rooms. That's a nice level of flexibility.
I haven't been keeping up with the current sound gear, but Mackie was always an excellent mixer when I was following these things, and JBL is certainly a good maker of speakers.
I'd stay away from stuff like the Passport - when I looked at those the only use I could imagine for it was for a small out-door public-speaking engagement near a power outlet. Easy to use, I suppose, but there's not much you can do with it.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: AMPing up!
Mix's observation about the added weight of powered speakers is correct. There's also the slight added noise of sending line-level signal through long cables - these both are a bit of weight in the pan for a power amp and passive speakers.
However, the powered speakers are still a pretty viable option - most people I've talked to seem pretty happy with the sound, and it means one less box to carry, which is significant.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: AMPing up!
Just back from a walkabout.
Thanks everyone for the informative and valued comment, much appreciated.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
Mackie's would be new to me. I've been inside Sudiomaster and Allen & Heath boards before and was impressed, very clean, nice workmanship. I get the same feeling from Mackie though I've never worked with them before. Our studio monitor setup is JBL, and for being robust and a decent sound I've no complaints. If one dropped on your foot you'd need to call an ambulance.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
I have experience in pro-audio, both live and recording, spent 3 years in pro-audio sales and did some consulting. I'll tell you that function, durability will be big considerations besides the sound.
For you application, it seems to me that powered speakers would be a good choice, less need to heavy amplifiers, especially since powered speakers have come a long way. Mackie, JBL, or Yamaha will serve you well in that regard. But I understand the argument against them that Mix brings up.
You are right about both Studiomaster and Allen & Heath. I'm a particular fan of the latter. For clean channels and excellent EQ, you can't do much better. Mackie boards are also excellent. JNE must have gotten a good Behringer unit. I used to avoid selling Behringer after I kept getting return after return, mainly because of quality control issues, but also because of noisy channels.
Jon Kiparsky is right. I would actually stay away from any of those self-contained systems. They're not bad, but you can't really build on those systems. Put your own component system together.
I'm a big microphone nut. You can't beat the sure SM57 and SM58 for sheer workhorse durability, but for sound quality you can get better for about the same price. Sennheiser and Audix models in the same price range are perhaps slightly less durable, but the sound is discernably better. A spot comparison will bear this out. Or you can upgrade to Shure Beta series mics and they are excellent. Hearing is believing. I used to spot test the Shure SM58 against the Sennheiser E835 and the Audix OM2 (same price point), and buyer would opt with either of the latter two every time, unless indestructibility was their only concern, in which case I said "take the SM58" and call it a day.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: AMPing up!
Jon already covered exactly what I was going to say. I would also hope for at least a bit of parametric EQ or maybe a simple notch filter for the monitor mix.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: AMPing up!
Ceol. Me again. Forgot to mention. In my kneck of the woods we're lucky enough to have a brilliant PA guy. Surname, James - known to all as "Jesse James". All the local bands (not just ceilidh bands) know him, and use him for pa repairs, supplies etc. He's been around since the year dot, and what he doesn't know about pa could be written on the back of a very small postage stamp. He's also a larger-than-life local character! If you've heard of Fred Dibnah, Jesse is the electronics equivalent!
Indeed, it was Jesse who quickly diagnosed the fault with our Mackie, and showed me where the awkwardly placed fuse was fitted, in case it should ever fail again.
Jesse told me that there were two build locations for the Mackies - the USA and the Far East. He said that the build quality of the ones built in the USA was much better.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: AMPing up!
I'm not a sound engineer by any stretch of the imagination, but I know a singer who tried a new Sennheiser radio mike which he had to ditch halfway through a show because there was a rainstorm a couple of miles away and the mike was picking up the lightning. I use a flute mike on my fiddle as well as on the flute -- just un-velcro it and slip it under the tailpiece. It is very light, but needs a pre-amp.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by gam
Re: AMPing up!
I mixed a bluegrass festival a few years back with an Allen & Heath board. A very solid unit - precise controls, good accurate EQ.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: AMPing up!
See. There's another one for A & H. Clean channels and EQ are their thing.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: AMPing up!
When you've decided on what your getting I recommend checking prices on thomann.de and musicstore.de.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by colmh
Re: AMPing up!
Behrenger is basically a Mackie clone. The layout is almost identical, and the sound's good enough if you're not too fussy, If you can't afford the Mackie, Behrenger is reasonable for live work.
As for microphones, the Shure SM series has a lot of fans, mainly because they're not really bad at anything except women's voices - although I'd probably try them last for low whistle. If it puts out a reasonable amount of volume and it's not too high up, the SM will do a decent job of it. Soprano whistles? Sure, as long as they're not one of those quiet Clarkes. Fiddles? Sure, if you get it up close enough.
For general purpose work, have a couple of those on hand.
However, they're not very good for anything - while they'll generally work, there's usually a mic that will work better for any particular job. So if you are interested in specialising, and there's a pro audio outlet near you, you should probably go and see what's available. Set up every mic that's in or near your price range for a given application, and just see what each sounds like. You'd be surprised what a difference it can make - a great mic for a flute might sound lousy for the fiddle, and so forth.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: AMPing up!
I'd have to disagree - an SM57 can sound fantastic with a woman's voice. SM58s colour the sound slightly around the region where most men sound more gritty - so the men sound slightly more manly (generally a good thing). SM57s are used for women and backing vocalists in particular as they are a bit more weedy in the lower regions, but have a nice peak that helps the engineers differentiate between the different singers more easily. They are extremely rugged and spare windscreens (the grey ball on the end that you sing into) are available for them, saving money in the long-run. Most other makes are less easy to get spares for.
If you're after a radio mic, then Trantec offer very good value for money and are very decent. AKG likewise. But if you can afford Sennheiser then do as they're well above the others in terms of quality and versatility in the price range.
Jon Kiparsky is right on his appraisal of mic use and choice - if you go in to any decent music shop that sells mics, they should have no problems setting up a whole bunch of mics for you to try at once. When I work in the studio this is one of the first things I do with a new singer or instrument.
I use a Yamaha stagepass in my work on a daily basis and have found it both reliable and a great sound for the price. The great thing about it is that there's space in the back of one of the speakers for all your wires and even a couple of microphones, whilst the other one holds the mixer, which is removable for flexibility. I also use a variety of other powered speakers and passive and the Yamaha is surprisingly light by comparison to the others. I would have no hesitation recommending it for your proposed setup. Depends on how many microphones you need, though - there's a limited number of inputs.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by farmerboy
Re: AMPing up!
I think, then, that you need to know what you want to do.
I've used a Passport 250 (the one with the Bose speakers) for some years in every environment from out of doors open spaces to up to medium sized indoor halls. The battery pack is very handy for situations where AC isn't available. And, when we went out with 5 plus a PA mike we used a Mackie 1202 fed into the line inputs of the Passport. Everything we've done with it has worked very well. Mikes with it are OK, though not great.
That said, if I were going to put together a system that was to grow and expand in uses in unknown ways I'd go with components. That is easier to upgrade and expand bit by bit, and when you get to fairly large and noisy rooms where the Passport might not do the job you can have more powerful stuff in place.
MOre later...supper time.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by cboody
Re: AMPing up!
I have been happy with my JBL Eon Power10s. Very lightweight and clean-sounding. Not much bass (none really, by rock-band standards) but fine for my purposes. I also have a pair of alumin(i)um tripod speaker stands--also lightweight but plenty stable and sturdy enough for the job. The only monitor (foldback) speaker I own is a Roland CM-30 cube monitor--a wonderfully versatile little box. Takes multiple inputs, so it can serve as both mixer and monitor speaker for small groups (only one XLR input, though).
One caution: Don't go overboard on the mixer. Some of them just have too many knobs for most of us--filters, compression, A/B monitor submixes, etc.--and can be a nightmare for anybody who isn't trained to operate them.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by John Galt
Re: AMPing up!
Forking the thread a little, it's actually very easy to operate these boards, even the ones with too many knobs. The trick is to look at one channel strip and figure out what each section does. It's usually organized in a pretty sensible way, with the flow of signal proceeding from the top down, or from the back of the board (where the signal comes in) to the front. So you have your input trim, then your effects sends, then your eq, then your pan, then your gain. Once you spot those, you know where they are for each channel, and there's 85% of the board taken care of. Then you find your master volume, your monitor level, your effects sends, and that's most of it.
The main thing, though, is to remember that most of the board is just the same small set of knobs repeated over and over - and that if you set them right in the sound check, you won't really need to touch them during the performance.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: AMPing up!
Not to sidetrack the thread, but to provide an example re complicated mixers, I think this is the one that had us flummoxed one night:
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-MG166CX-16Channel-Mixer-With-Compression-and-Effects?sku=630257
We had howling feedback problems, no matter how we adjusted the gain, compression, and effects; the "Group 1-2" and "Group 3-4" submixes for monitors were also a bit much, for our situation. (I consulted an expert later. He guessed that the piper's closely grouped multiple condenser mics were probably to blame.)
The point: Consider who is likely to be operating the beast. For non-professionals--or people who would rather play tunes than tinker with technology--the simpler, the better.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by John Galt
Re: AMPing up!
I've also used thomann.de (as recommended by colmh above) - we bought our DI boxes from them.
The ones that we bought are called "Millennium". Just basic passive DI boxes, but very robust and well-engineeered - I can recommend them. After exchange raate conversion and shipping, the boxes worked out at about £10 each.
I can also recommend Absolute Music Solutions of (Poole, Dorset) as a PA supplier:
http://www.absolutemusic.co.uk/store/
We bought our speaker stands from Absolute (sorry, I can't remember what make they were). The stands that we bought are stable, but also light in weight. They don't however have the tilting feature that you're looking for. One way to get extra stability is to buy stands rated to support bigger speakers than the ones that you are actually using.
We also bought some good padded covers for our speakers from Absolute. Not Mackie "own brand", but they fit the speakers perfectly, and were much cheaper.
Good advice from "tuckered out" above. PA is essential in some situations, but personally I regard it as a necessary evil!
So unless you are a PA geek or a professional sound engineer, it's a good idea to keep the mixer simple.
The ideal mixer for me would just have one button marked "good sound" - the problem is, they haven't invented one like this yet!
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: AMPing up!
Tuck - I'd agree with your expert, multiple condenser mics on a stage is a pretty good place to start looking for your feedback problem. I never had any luck with pipes and mics - this is a case where I think a big stage in a good room and in-ear monitors would make life a lot easier.
Looking at the board you were using, it doesn't look too tremendously complicated. I can't quite make out all of the labels in the picture, but it looks like a pretty standard layout, and pretty close to the minimum you need if you're going to actually get some use out of it.
There are a few tricks you can learn that'll make your life easier - if you learn how to set the input gain properly, you'll have a much easier time - do it right, and you won't have to touch the board after you set the levels. Every microphone that you can get rid of from your stage is a little less chance of feedback - all stringed instruments should be going through pickups and DI boxes, and probably the piper doesn't need all of those microphones that he thinks he needs. Less monitor level is better. Condenser mics are great, as long as you keep them in their boxes, and the boxes locked in the trunk of a vehicle that you don't bring to the gig. And so forth - lots of little things. But don't blame the soundboard - learn how to use it.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: AMPing up!
I agree Jon, it's always better to know what you're doing. But ideally, if you are providing a sound system to be run by whoever shows up, it's better to get one with fewer knobs. Fewer things to go wrong.
With that in mind, for ceolachan's situation, I'd suggest a simple powered mixer (with lots of mic inputs--you can't put pickups on singers) and passive speakers. One knob for main volume, another knob for monitor volume. Mackie makes some good ones. There's a Mackie rig like that at a local pub that has been going trouble-free (I think) for at least 10 years.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by John Galt
Re: AMPing up!
Here's what I use for regular gigging. It serves well for a duo to a 5 person band, in rooms that are not more than 400. Clearly this is not top of the line stuff, but it all works very well and sounds great if not pushed too hard.
Board
Peavy PV14 Board (Passive 10 channel)
Behringer FBQ1502 EQ
Behringer SX3040 Dynamics driver
Speakers
JBL P15 Powered
Stands
Ultimate Support
Monitors
Fender 150 (Speaker and head package - needs stands)
or
Roland Cube CM30's powered monitors (on stands)
Mics
Callers - Hand held Shure or AKG - be sure they're FCC compliant (rules just changed)
Band - Condensers
AKG C1000S or ~$200 ea
MXL 604 ~$150 ea
or
Behringer B5 ~100 ea
Mics Dynamic
Shure SM58
Mic preamps for phantom (not required, but nice to have)
ART TubeMP ~$40
DI (for direct inputs from piano or guitar)
ART PDB (passive) or
ART Xdirect (powered 9v)
Cords
You'll need a good complement of XLR cords and TS cords, and a few short TRS cords.
Don't scrimp on the cords. A great device to have is a Behringer CT100 Cord Tester.
Figure 2 cords for each mic. The JBL P15's use XLR inputs. They also each need power.
You'd be wise to get a power conditioner that you can plug everything into to avoid electrical line noise. A power conditioner costs about $60.
The most important thing, other than how it sounds, is where are you going to put all of this in order to avoid having to cart it around. This system is pretty compact and easily fits into a station wagon.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Toppish
Re: AMPing up!
I've used my Passport PD250 for many wedding receptions and parties, but would definitely want something bigger and more controllable for a concert venue.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: AMPing up!
I had the misfortune to be lent a Yamaha’s Stagpas 500 for an outdoor event last weekend.
The sound was good, the mixer was adequate, although it lacks all the knobs you need for dealing with feedback and bad acoustics - I think if I was using it for a travelling band I'd buy a separate desk.
But the real problem was the PA protection circuitry. If you turn the wick up above 3/4 it will cut out after a couple of minutes. If the knob goes up to 10 I expect to be able to use it at 10. And having a PA that keeps cutting out makes you look very unprofessional.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by skreech
Re: AMPing up!
skreeech - Only 10?.
... You mean that you don't have an amp that "goes up to eleven?" 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY
Well, as interesting as this thread may be to some of us, I thought that it needed livening up with a little humour ....
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: AMPing up!
Aside from the equipment, if you have a choice between two otherwise equal-ish bits of kit, go for the
smallest
lightest
most robust
...cos it's such a pain carrying big, heavy things that fall apart!!
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Mark Harmer
Re: AMPing up!
I don't have much to add to this discussion, because I am an idiot on these matters, I mostly haul the gear for our group, while the others picked it out, made the purchases, hook everything up, and balance all the knobs and switches.
Agree with the people above that the small 'package' systems are nice for small stuff, but pretty much limited to their original capabilities, with very little opportunities to expand or modify what they can do.
Our sound system has a head with a mixing board built into it, two big monitors (which can also be put on the speaker posts and used as speakers themselves in smaller rooms), and two big main speakers, which are hard to lift by yourself. Which leads me to my main point, which is to agree with Mark--be sure and consider the weight of your gear--I am in a group with two women and a disabled vet, and not getting any younger myself, so sometimes by the time we perform, I am exhausted, having carried most of the heavy stuff.
I don't think anyone has mentioned it above, but at a wedding last summer, we preceded a DJ who had these speakers that looked like fat speaker poles, but with no speakers on top. Apparently there was an array of smaller speakers inside the poles, which sounded pretty darn good and plenty loud. I think they might have been Bose speakers. Watching them bring in their gear, I was VERY jealous of how light everything was.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: AMPing up!
Too right - those Bose speakers are lovely, easy to set up, give a really good output and sound beautifully clear and cost more than most of us can afford
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by farmerboy
Re: AMPing up!
Mix ~ I like the sound of your resident electrician, Jesse James, wishing he were nearby. I have great respect for those that share their knowledge, as he did in helping you sort out your speaker problem. And it's someone that is a "larger-than-life local character".
Oh my achin' back...
Thanks Colm and Mix, I've used 'Thomann' before but not 'MusicStore' or 'Absolute Music Solutions'. I'll check both out.
I've used Sures, and I know what you mean by durable, you could use them to hammer in tent stakes, and they're OK for their intended use too, but over time my preference and respect for condensers continues to grow.
I have to agree with Jon on navigating boards, once you've gotten the gist of it you're OK, but size can be an issue for some, and a small board isn't going to have the extra choices, switches. I've also used Yamaha kit, amps and boards, and found them pretty decent, and not so confusing, but it pays to get familiar with any kit before you open it up for use at an event. Putting more than one condenser on a piper is, IMO, mad, asking for trouble. On the whole, from my limited experience, boards are mostly user friendly, but, like with anything, it requires some understanding and applied use and experimentation. That said, there are plenty of small and simple mixing boards available, even pocket sized ones. I would like to have the paras if possible, and at a minimum a sweepable mid.
Jon Kiparsky: "Every microphone that you can get rid of from your stage is a little less chance of feedback" ~ Yes! But I love condensers, though I don't use them in every situation or with every musicians, just those I know well and can trust, and for myself.
tuckered out ~ I'm not that brave, I'd NEVER provide sound and kit to be "run by whoever shows up". I have to say, it's basically 'HANDS OFF!' in my book... But there is some great basic kit available if you're willing to hand the knobs over to someone else, who themselves might be a knob. I just wouldn't risk it.
'Ultimate Support' stands have had a few mentions. We've used Quik Lok stands before, if not speaker stands, and we've been pretty happy with that kit.
http://www.ultimatesupport.com/
http://www.quiklok.com/
Toppish, thanks for the list and recommendations...
Along with everything else, I don't believe in skimping on cabling. Good quality cables DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!
Mark Harmer ~ "it's such a pain carrying big, heavy things that fall apart!!" ~ !!! Yup!
But, after all your contributions I am no longer considering the all-in-one systems and instead will 'build' kit, starting with the bare necessities and letting it grow from there.
The Bose poles are also quite limited, more for a one-person show, or two, three at most... As well the idea of haaving a sound source you can't raise above the heads of an audience, or dancers, is, IMO, nuts...
Thanks for all the contributions, though I see a few of the expected are missing as yet, maybe later.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
Sorry, I misunderstood the scenario. If you're the one who runs it, no problem, get a board with lots of features and learn to make the most of them.
My rig has been quite adequate for small-to-medium rooms (up to 250, say) and nothing in it weighs over 25 pounds (12 kg?). Although my compact mixer (by Alesis) has only 4 mic inputs.
Weight is why I passed on the powered mixer idea, and the Bose tower systems--besides the high price, I believe the base of the tower weighs around 40-45 pounds. At 23 pounds each, the EON Power10s provide a lot of sound for very little weight. (I wasn't always such a wimp, but a couple of serious strain injuries have encouraged "the better part of valor.") The EONs are also shaped to serve as floor monitors, if you later get some bigger main speakers.
Around here, the Shure SM58 is the standard workhorse stage microphone. Good enough, soundwise, and very feedback resistant.
And I personally wouldn't sweat the "tilt-able" feature of the speaker stands. Just set them up at shoulder height and run them loud enough for the dancers to hear.
That's it for me. I'd rather play fiddle than fiddle with gear, any day.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by John Galt
Re: AMPing up!
Ceol - FYI, Jesse lives in Bristol, UK. He does charge for PA repairs, but his charges are very reasonable, and are normally carried out "while you wait".
A typical trip to Jesse's for a PA repair goes something like this ...
Jesse: "What have you got for me now then! Put it up on the bench so that I can have a proper look at it"
Jesse (again) "Ah, You know what the usual problem with these is, don't you?"
Me: "Err, no ...."
(Jesse explains the design fault of the item concerned. I listen intently for ten minutes to a complex technical explanation, hardly understanding a word of it!)
(Jesse commences the repair)
... some time later ...
(Jesse desolders a 3 ohm resistor (or whatever) and holds it up in the air, beaming broadly)
Jesse: "THAT's what your problem is! Now, go to the back of my workshop, third shelf from the top, fifth section from the left - I think you'll find four boxes there. Get me the green box with the yellow label!"
(I fetch the required box. It's the right one! How *does* he remember where all this stuff is?)
(Jesse,usually wearing a green eye-shade and looking like a telegraph operator from Wells Fargo, solders in the new component, reassembles, and connects it up to a full sound system. I'm then treated to an ear splitting rendering of the Shadows playing "Apache".
Jesse: "You know why I'm using this recording to test it, don't you?"
Me: (Hands over ears!) "Err, no ..."
Jesse "It's got all the frequencies - listen to that bass - now listen to that treble .... "
It now well over an hour since I entered Jesse's workshop ...
Me: "Well, thanks very much Jesse - how much do I owe you?
Jesse: "Oh, gives us a fiver, and b**gger off!" .. and here's a couple of spare 3 ohm resistors. You'll know exactly what to do if it ever goes wrong again!"
- but in never does!
As I said, a larger-than-life character.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: AMPing up!
More positive comment on the EONs, thanks 'tuckered out'. As to d'ruthers, me too... It might not just be me taking responsibility for the group gear, especially with regards to d'ruthers, but it won't be openly accessibly, only someone who has a ken will get to twiddles knobs... The ideal, as oft repeated, is to get it right and then have very little more to do with it once the settings are made, other than to adjust for those changes in atmosphere and population...
Nice one Mix, I loved it...
One point, I've NEVER used a DI box, tell us more...
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by ceolachan
Jesse James ~ & more reason to wish there wasn't any distance between us, to have access to a 'priceless' character and asset like you have...
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
our ceilidh band, complete, is 14 muscians... and with no money, I had to chooose an not too expenseive sound system : a "Jesses James" friend got us an outfit that's been satisfactory for 2 and a half years now :
speakers : 2 samson active. I set the volume level quite high, so there's less purring sound.
Mixer Allen and Heath ZX22, 16 tracks
berhinger feedback killer
2 samson active monitors. that we line up with those of some of the band, usually ending up with 6 monitors (2 channels)
Mikes : everybody has his own mike and cables. I use AKG C409 for the box and a guitar AKG C401pickup for the hammered dulcimer. Herself has a Beyer Dynamic NE 500S (wireless). So, no mike stands, just one for the flute, everybody else has pickups. the active speakers are certainly heavy... but with that number of musicians, it's ok.... But I do lust for some speakers I've seen, small, light and with an excellent sound...
With our setting we have a reasonnably good sound. We never play too loud, we use it so that we can be heard above the din of people talking and dancing loudly...
But of course we prefer, when we can, to play without the sound system... it's so easier...
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Nikita Pfister
Re: AMPing up!
So, tell us more, what are the speakers you've been lusting for?
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
Stands! ~ I like the look and sound of those 'Ultimate Support' speaker stands. Thanks for directing me there and recommending those...
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
@ ceol - glad the you enjoyed the anectdote - one of many that I could tell about that particular character - if I had the time, and folks wanted to listen ...
But to answer your question ...
A DI (direct injection)box, is an electronic device that connects a high impedance, line level, unbalanced output signal to a low impedance mic level balanced input, usually via XLR connector.
Many musicians who expect to be playing via PA often have their own DI box. You connect your instrument to the DI box using a lead fitted with quarter-inch jacks, then connect the DI box to the mixer using an XLR lead.
As mentioned, we use basic passive DI boxes, but sophisticated active ones are available that need batteries or a power supply, and also have graphic equaliser and other controls incorporated.
We played an enjoyable outdoor gig this morning at a farmers' market (using PA), but now off to a nice (accoustic!!!) pub session this evening, so must dash ...
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: AMPing up!
Anyone used the Carlsbro flat panel speakers? I heard them at a Celidh in a long, narrow hall and they seemed really quiet up close, but the sound was equally loud (and very, very clear and detailed) at the other end of the room. Quite amazing!
Don't think they'd take serious volume but I use a single one plugged into my battery operated harp amp for outdoor gigs and it sounds wonderful.
I wonder if anyone here has tried them on a more serious footing perhaps with their subwoofer?
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Mark Harmer
Re: AMPing up!
Ps because of the way they're quiet close-to, it's almost impossible to get them to feed back. They sort of defy the laws of physics...
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Mark Harmer
Re: AMPing up!
Has anyone tried the SR technology pocket PAs? They look similar to the Bose systems:
http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/may09/articles/pocket1500.htm
So far I haven't been able to find them in the US
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by airport
Re: AMPing up!
@Mark, I wonder if there's a focusing effect at work? You can get it with musical instruments. A professional cellist was playing a concerto with us once and during a break in the rehearsal he was talking about his Strad cello and how it sounded quieter to someone close to it than someone farther away. He illustrated this effect to us as well, and described it as focusing the sound. Or perhaps it's a directional frequency-linked effect, like a violin has with remote miking - which is why in concert halls the mike is sometimes suspended quite some way above the soloist.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Help Please
Haven't seen anything on mic placement except for every instrument has it's own mic(s).
I have a good Mackie mixer and active PA. I'm going to use it for an outdoor gig for our session band: one of each of: pipes, concertina, fiddle, banjo, harp, whistle, and bohran. The harp has an internal mic.
Here's the question: I'm planning to use two Rode large-diaphram condener mics for the whole thing. My impression is that feedback is not as much of a problem when playing outside, but what do you folks think of the plan?
If I carefully position the mics and players, could I get a good representation out of the PA? I don't think we need a monitor speaker because we play without amplification all the time.
Thoughts and advice welcome. Thanks much.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by dfost
Re: AMPing up!
I forgot to mention that I am planning to use the internal harp mic since that is one of the quieter instruments.
Thanks again for any advise you can offer.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by dfost
Re: AMPing up!
I have some Rode (nt1a - don't know what yours are) and they're great mics but they will suffer if there's any wind about, so I'd be a bit wary about using them outdoors - but I guess you'll soon know if they will work by blowing gently anywhere near them. If there's any problem it will be very very obvious!
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Mark Harmer
Re: AMPing up!
Good point Mark. I hadn't thought about how the weather could affect things. Do you think wind screens would be adequate protection? Is there some other mic model that would work better for this application?
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by dfost
Re: AMPing up!
Just out of curiosity, what's your budget luike? Tight?
If it is tight Behringer offer great value for money.
On the SM 57 versus SM58 thing. They are both affordable dynamic mics. For what it's worth, if you take the wind shield away from the the SM58 you've more or less got yourself an SM57.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by greg sheils
Re: AMPing up!
I'm with Mark on the use of any large diaphragm condenser mic outside... The idea made me wince. Maybe you'll luck out and it will be an absolutely still day, but what are the chances of that? The Rodes are lovely mics...
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
Ceolachan - The question on DIs has been more or less handled, but I should clarify that one of the advantages of an active DI is that provides some level of preamping, which reduces line noise between the instrument and the board. This is quite separate from the impedance matching function that a passive DI fills.
There are various DI/preamp systems that add various degress of features, from EQ through compression, effects, tuners, and the like. As I say, the Baggs box is the one I like, but you've got a lot of choices in this regard if you want something to improve your signal between guitar and mixer.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: AMPing up!
Thanks Jon, thanks all, it has helped...
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
I'm also wary of the large-diaphragm mics in an outdoor setting, but it will depend to some degree on the surroundings. If you're on a stage with a shell behind you and some some sort of protection from the side, and you're gathered around the mics, you might be okay.
I know I've seen people use such mics outdoors, so it's not impossible, but it's a bit of a gamble.
I'll say this, though, for that instrumentation, if the wind isn't a problem your two mics solution is probably the best approach to use, especially if you don't anticipate using monitors.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: AMPing up!
Check out the Bose L1 system. We've been using a pair of L1s for a couple of years and LOVE them. They're modular, light and VERY easy to set up and break down--and they eliminate the need for stage monitors. I highly recommend the Model II because of the extra versatility. And yes, they're pricey, but IMHO, they are worth every penny if you frequently have to haul your own PA to gigs. Microphones, on the other hand, are a subjective experience. There are a bunch of very good, reasonably priced mics on the market. We generally use Shure SM58s for vocals and "other" instruments. Acoustic string and reed instruments go direct into the Bose.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by GDub
Re: AMPing up!
DIs ~ I think I've figured out their lack in my past, either because they weren't readily available, or more likely, we were pretty much all acoustic, and the few times we had a keyboard that was managed otherwise. As far as I can remember we never had an electric guitar or bass, only acoustic and uprights, and those miked one way or another. And, surprisingly, usually a piano, more often an upright, which we creatively miked.
On outdoor events, I know we did use condensers, with wind screens, etc., but never large diaphragm mics. Even with a shell behind and around us, sometimes that wasn't a benefit, and 'size matters' there too. Mics, small diaphragms, used included AKGs, Audio Technicas, countrymans and Neumanns. Two of us handled it all, but while I was more a grunt and the systems designer, and owned a good share of our kit, not completely ignorant, the second member was more in tune with our gear, and owned the board.. We both managed it in turn, and set up the mics. In outdoor gigs we used mics per instrument, rather than collectively, in part to avoid problems with picking up outside sounds, such as wind.
More challenging was the environment, and we ran into some peculiar quirks with things like the terrain and temperature inversions, layers of different air temperatures that affected how the sound was received by the audience. In one case, up on a stage and the audience in a geographic bowl, we discovered they were hearing very little, because of just such a difference in the layer of air temperatures. Crazy, but doing outdoor gigs was crazy, always different, and also good kick, fun, in part because of the challenges. I'll never stop learning, and I am generally aware of how much I don't know, and how challenging my own ignorance can be. Thank goodness for folks like Mix's Jesse James, Jon, Mark, and others who are willing to share their experiences and knowledge.
My shyness at using large diaphragm mics outside is based on a limited experience there, not wanting to repeat bad or troublesome experiences. Also, thinking back, dynamic mics, like the old Shures, and some interesting, I believe Electro Voice and Audio Techica, neodymium ones, seemed to be less hassle.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
GDub ~ yes, the idea of monitor and speakers all in one, I like the 'basic' idea. I'll have to get past my biases and give them a trial, but the price is the biggest deterrent, and a general distrust of the BS Bose keeps bandying about, something akin to Apple Macs...
On the later point, software problems aside, several of the latter, Apple-Macs, owned by friends, have not lasted as long as my old PC here, however cute the kit is... But that's veering wildly off topic now.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
Hi there
FWIW, I use an HK Audio system with a Behringer 2442 FX Pro Desk, Shure SM 58, Sennhauser, Behringer C2 SDC and DI's through some mic pre's
Apart from the basic gear you need, I do think that the benefit of being able to insert compressors, limiters, gates, dynamics etc also gives you greater control of the sound.
For example; A Behringer Multicom Pro XL will give you 4 independant channels of the above which can be inserted into your desk channel inserts ie Gating to reduce bleed etc
Pkev
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by pkev
Re: AMPing up!
pkev ~ tell me more about the 'HK' side of your kit...
I have been convinced that the idea of being able to build on a system is the best way to go, rather than some of the all-in-one kit I'd not previously knocked off the list of possibilities. In a sense, Bose fits that all-in-one definition, with the same limitations, and others, which in my mind outweighs, at the moment, any advantages, such as portability...
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
About the Bose -- I like and use L1s and T3s, and they work great if they're in the right setting.
But if you're taking cavernous malls and outdoors, to potentially large crowds of people, I think you're better off going with a modular system, like those suggested here, that you can expand if necessary. if you use a mixer and powered speakers, for instance, you can just add a few speakers if the crowd or hall is really big. Means more electrical cords, yes, but that's about the only issue, aside from a little delay coming from the back of the room, which you're not likely to hear anyway.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by Jmbu
Re: AMPing up!
We did one gig with a Bose L1 right behind us - we had to move it in front after an hour - it was too bl**dy loud.
# Posted on June 20th 2010 by geoffwright
Re: AMPing up!
I've had a welcome email giving a good account of EVs speakers, their SX300e, which they'd borrowed for a gig and liked so much they're ordering a pair. I've had good experience, if limited, with EVs too. For some idea of the speakers I've considered, passive or active ~ makes only, in alphabetical order ~
DB / EV / HK / JBL / Mackie / QSC / RFC / Yamaha ~
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
I'm still feeling some temptation to go with passive speakers and a powered board, possibly something like Mackie's PPM1008, but nothing is final, except that Bose isn't a consideration, or the portable all-in-one kit. I'm still not convinced one side or the other with regards to passive vs. active speakers. I'll need to read more and hear more...
# Posted on June 21st 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
~ and keep asking questions.
Thanks everyone for your valued contributions...
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
@ceol - Have you considered safeguarding against SPFs (single points of failure)?
- All systems - cables
- Active systems - SPF = mixer
- Passive systems = SPF = mixer/amp OR mixer AND Amp
No problem about having a few spare cables with you. But a spare mixer is cheaper than a spare mixer/amp OR spare mixer AND spare Amp.
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: AMPing up!
Yes, the concept of bits vs. combinations, and that considered combination of the mixer-amp, such as from Mackie and Allen & Heath. 'Bits' are also more easily upgraded. The other consideration is the 'chain', that the more you have between the source and the output, the speakers, the more chance there is for problems in the sound, not just the equipment... The most direct route is generally the cleanest, the best... And then there's new kit that can clean things up, like the DBX DriveRack PX powered speaker optimizer, or a power line conditioner...
The temptation to go with something of a lower count kit wise, such as a powered mixer, speakers and stands, is attractive on that point ~ less to fuss with. SPF is applicable to every point of connectivity, starting on the source end with the microphones, but not forgetting the instruments and musicians...
# Posted on June 22nd 2010 by ceolachan
Re: AMPing up!
Back to the L1s... After hauling heavy PA gear for many years I got tired of being a burro. I still have a nice Mackie rig, Bag End speakers (HEAVY!) and monitors. Then there's the mic and speaker stands--and the amps and instruments (I usually bring 2 guitars, a pedalboard and gigbag with cords and stuff--my wife plays accordion...). All in all a nice setup, but a real pain to load, unload, setup, break down, reload, unload. Once I got the L1s I haven't given a thought to hauling the big stuff. And yes, the L1s take a bit of tweaking to get right (including optimum stage placement), but once you've got them down you're always good to go. We've used our in a lot of different settings (both indoors and out) with our 8 piece band and have yet to be disappointed or not loud enough--mind you we don't play arenas
. So get the system you want, but remember there is a much easier on your back way to get good sound.
Best of luck with whatever you choose.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by GDub
Re: AMPing up!
Gear ain't so bad on your back if you know how to lift it. Unless you're loading in an arena show, stacking towers, there's not a lot on the stage that an able-bodied person can't lift and carry from the car to the stage. It's just that you have to know how to do it. There are two secrets that you have to know.
The first thing is to know the roadie's mantra:
Lift with your knees, make two trips, and keep your load centered.
The second thing, and this might be even more effective than the first: hire young players with young knees.
It's amazing how easy the load-in will go if you just follow these two rules.
# Posted on June 25th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky