1) When a tune is started at a session that you do not already know, do you always listen to it at least once though before attempting to join in?
2) If another guitarist is present (and playing), do you have some means of ensuring that you are always both playing the same chords at the same points of the tune?
3) Can you play the melodies of all the tunes that you accompany on a “standard” session melody instrument?
4) Are you aware of the essentially “melodic” nature of ITM?
5) Do you know that a tune which doesn’t use a major scale is not simply “minor”, but is likely to use one the modal scales (e,g. Natural Minor, Dorian, Mixolydian etc)?
6) Do you know which chords are suited to the common modal-scale keys?
7) Do you refrain from playing arpeggio chords and bass runs, except perhaps for waltzes?
8) Did you answer “yes” to all of the above questions?
- If you did, I think the chances are that you would be considered to be a very good session guitarist by most melody players.
- If you did not, you *might* be a good session guitarist, but I think that it’s unlikely.
(I guess that this might turn out to be a rather contoversial discussion – but I do assure you that I am being sincere).
No doubt melody-only players might have views on this, so I look forward to reading comments from them as well ….
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I believe that both of our guitarists can answer "yes" to all of the above... they don't both play guitar at the same time, they switch off on mandolin, playing melody, so only one backer at a time. They are both fabulous, sensitive players... who both happen to be married to the fiddle players (I'm one of them)!
and they won't be on here answering for themselves because they don't frequent the board, they are too busy playing the tunes. ha!
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Answers:
1) It depends on the expectations of the melody players. I don't particularly like trying to accompany tunes I don't know but sometimes when I try to sit a tune out a melody player will shout "G" or something similar.
2) If another guitarist is present and playing then I generally don't join in.
3) Probably not, but I can play most of them on the guitar (melodies, that is).
4)Um, are most tunes not melodic (from whichever part of the globe)?
5)I reckon my theory is hotter than that of most melody players.
6)I do, but I don't use the mode of a tune to decide chords what chords to play. I use the tune.
7)I have to confess I don't play an awful lot of Irish tunes. It's mainly Scottish for me and for those tunes I'll sometimes use bass runs - where I deem appropriate.
8) No
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Excellent list, Mix - I'm tempted to stick it on the door to our pub!
Now, if you could kindly extend it to cover all other 'backing' instruments, and also provide a complementary list for melody players...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Well, I must say that I'm pleased and surprised!
Whilst I feel that there were good points to be made in the questions that I raised, I was rather expecting a torrent of abuse!
I guess that's yet to come ...
But thank you all for your polite responses thus far ....
To answer a couple of the points raised in those responses:
Yes, many a time I've I've heard a melody player call out the key just before changing into a dfferent tune, but only "something-or-other" major or "something-or-other" minor. I've never heard anyone call out "D Mix" or "A-Dorian" for example.
To clarify what I mean my "melodic" music. Up until the 18th century all western music was "melodic" in nature i.e. only suited to be played unaccompanied or with some drone notes or other simple harmony. When this was realised, writing music using most of the old modal scales went out of fashion. The major scale remained (but became more prominent). Some of the semitone intervals of the then existing melodic minor scale were changed, forming the harmonic minor scale.
These two scales - major and harmonic minor are the ones that are mainly formally taught today.
However, the common people stayed with the modal keys that they were used to - i.e. the sort of music still played in pub sessions.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@ethical blend - regarding your hypothetical signs, (if my memory of Orwell's "Animal Farm" serves me correctly), those tactics didn't work too well ....
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
do you know what a harmonic minor scale is? The most common minor scales used in western music are the natural minor and the melodic minor. Harmonic minor is referring to a scale that has this order of whole and half steps WHWWHW+HH, so it involves an interval of a step and a half between mi and si. or 6 and 7.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
An excellent ideal world list there. Correct correct correct correct correct etc.
But, as ever, tweaks are required to allow for the most important approach of all ... pragmatism.
Firstly, It's important to note that for your No.3, a voice inside your head should be enough.
And your No.1 has interesting caveats to do with ensemble playing. From a melody player's point of view, it goes like this: If I have a new tune to the company, I'll usually play it first in a set. People can make of it what they will. However, some tunes can sit quite happily with a kind of droning chord for at least the first time through and sometimes it's good fun to play such a tune new to the company inside a set. In this case, I'd expect the strummers to strum away with a chord/root I shout, whether they've heard the tune before or not.
Also, it's very important to realise that If I shout a note/key, that will be the first chord in the tune. It's up to you strummers to suss out where the root it is - or even if there is a root. Stay alert.
Also, I often like to play whole sets in, for example, Gmaj. It's up to you guys to be creative and not to sound repetitive. The tunes won't be repetitive, so rise to it.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
to learn to play guitar other than playing fiddle for 3 years, and having a familiarity with guitar before that. who just plays guitar? John Doyle?
5)Love music theory and often p*ss people off by trying to enlighten them. don't know why people don't like to learn new things
6)Yes, but don't get stuck with patterns that I have to use every time. I learned to accompany Mason's Apron a few weeks back (A tune that I don't play melody to despite how common it is) the fiddler that was teaching me said A Major, though I found that my A ambiguous and my G major chord (with only one G, three Ds, and two Bs) sounded better than attempting to play A major chords (A D and E) I told him, I think it's actually A mixolydian with G# thrown in the melody for color, which is a fair enough argument considering that A mix and A Major are as closely related as two keys can be (one sharp or flat apart)
7)I find that arpeggiated chords sound great for slip jigs, so why would I refrain. I do what sounds the best. I like to find chords that create colorful basslines naturally in the chord changes. It is counterpoint, I'm not playing the melody but playing phrases below the melody that compliment without copying.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
1) yes, unless it is one that I have heard but still don't "know." knowing being defined as being able to play the melody on fiddle or banjo. If it is familiar to me I still might listen, because I notice that jumping in too early causes me to make more mistakes, it's a good idea to let the tune solidify in your brain so you don't end up dropping out when you forget a part that's coming, guitarists who drop out make the whole session sound bad
2)If another guitarist is present and playing I usually have a fiddle with or something else with me, and I won't touch my guitar until they stop playing, at which point they see me playing guitar and come over and start playing (J/k that was a particular incidence where a new player showed up and couldn't let me play guitar on my own, so annoying) I'm of the belief that there should only be one guitar player in a session, as well as one banjo, one drum, no more. Guitar and bouzouki together is perfectly acceptable, and as far as standard tuning goes, WHY!? No, I've heard some good guitar players play in standard, but also a fair amount of noobs who really should try something easier like DADGAD.
3)No, but I can play parts of them for sure, and most time those tunes end up being the ones that I eventually learn. I think accompanying a tune brings familiarity with that tune faster than passive listening. Of course I play guitar most often these days at the request of a fiddle player I play with, and he would rather hear the guitar whether or not I know the tune.
4)Yes, that is why I love this music. my interest in ITM came after I bought my first fiddle and stumbled upon a session. I only started playing my guitar once in a while at the session or in my band that plays Irish music after years of fiddle playing, I don't see any other way to learn to play guitar other than playing fiddle for 3 years, and having a familiarity with guitar before that. who just plays guitar? John Doyle?
5)Love music theory and often p*ss people off by trying to enlighten them. don't know why people don't like to learn new things
6)Yes, but don't get stuck with patterns that I have to use every time. I learned to accompany Mason's Apron a few weeks back (A tune that I don't play melody to despite how common it is) the fiddler that was teaching me said A Major, though I found that my A ambiguous and my G major chord (with only one G, three Ds, and two Bs) sounded better than attempting to play A major chords (A D and E) I told him, I think it's actually A mixolydian with G# thrown in the melody for color, which is a fair enough argument considering that A mix and A Major are as closely related as two keys can be (one sharp or flat apart)
7)I find that arpeggiated chords sound great for slip jigs, so why would I refrain. I do what sounds the best. I like to find chords that create colorful basslines naturally in the chord changes. It is counterpoint, I'm not playing the melody but playing phrases below the melody that compliment without copying.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yes llig, "a voice inside your head *should* be enough".
But it's my observation (and the opinion of a a lot of other melody players that I've spoken to) that the best session guitarists are those who can play the tunes on "melody" instruments.
Given a raft of melody players and a well-known tune, if the guitarist is "out" it may not be too noticeable.
However, It's nice sometimes to strike up with a new tune at a session. By "new", I of course mean a tune not normally played at the session is question. The melody players are probably feeling their way through the tune - maybe missing out a few notes here and there - nothing clashing.
But if a guitarist jumps straight in full blast from bar 1 without having the faintest clue about the tune, it can be very jarring on the ears ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
If you can sing the tune there is no reason you should also have to play it on a melody instrument. Having said that, I do enjoy hearing guitarists playing some of the melody, now & again.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix - can't say the checklist approach suits me well. There's a lot assumed and a lot left out of your list, I think someone could answer "yes" to all of those questions and still be a guitarist I didn't want around, and aside from (4) (which I don't really understand what you mean by it) all of your rules are broken by good guitarists.
I don't believe there's a simple regular approach to "good guitar playing" because what is expected varies from place to place and from player to player. The only common threads I can find are
a) listen to the tunes as they're being played now (ie, don't play "book changes" unless they happen to suit what's being played at the moment)
b) stay behind the tunes (if anyone notices the guitar, you're likely doing something wrong)
c) understand the rhythm (if you can't feel where the one is, and where the anticipation is, and where everything else in the tune is, you need to stop playing, now) (It might be that you don't understand the tune because of the other players' accenting beats oddly, or otherwise fooling with the tune. This doesn't matter, stop now)
A guitarist that does all of these things and obeys a single negative prescription might be very good, and still despised as a worthless accompanist two towns over, due to stylistic issues, such as playing fully-spelled out chords changing on the bar when the local preference is for moving partial chord accompaniment.
(The negative prescription, of course is
d) never play wrong notes without resolving them well )
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Are you being patronising or amusing? Should I be p*ssed off or entertained? You play banjo, mandolin, guitar, a bit of fiddle as I do so perhaps you are being provocative based on your own experiences?
I'm sorry but I do get a bit irritated by the number of posts that assume guitar players don't know their a**se from their elbow! I know lots of melody players who busk their way through tune after tune and are pretty awful but we show patience and forgive and encourage them.
Anyway I play a similar range of instruments as yourself starting with guitar in my teens then GDAE instruments for 25yrs+ before returning to guitar and could answer yes to any of your questions I cared to.
I suppose if your experience is to have sessions swamped by a number of inadequate players on any particular instrument you would have a jaundiced view. Shame about that!
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I agree with most of what Mix, Random, Michael, and a few others have said. I just want to add that I expect an experienced and competent guitarist to figure out how to play along with tunes they might not have necessarily heard before. If someone who I know is good doesn't play along with me, I tend to assume I'm doing something wrong.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Emily, I think you're on to something with that expectation. There are tunes an accompanist can pick up on the fly, and ones they can't. A big part of the job is to be able to tell the difference, for tunes you haven't heard, in real time.
This is maybe one (one more) reason why knowing lots of tunes is helpful, even if knowing how to play a particular tune is not always helpful for accompanying that particular tune.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
yes, yes, no, yes, yes, yes, no, no.
Unfortunately, I just played at the wake of the one other accompanist who I could play alongside without ever having to worry about clashing chords, so mostly I solve the 'clashing accompanist' issue by putting down the guitar when someone else picks one up.
And while I know a significant percentage of the tunes I accompany, I am far from knowing them all. It is, however, possible to recognize a tune, and be very comfortable with accompanying it, without being able to play its melody yourself.
All in all, Mix, you have produced a pretty good list of symptoms that produce a diagnosis of "good accompaniment."
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yeah, I think as an accompanist the key thing is knowing the tuneS. The vast majority of them are predictable enough someone well versed in the music that they can and do figure them out on the fly. There are some tunes which throw accompanists who don't know them (like this one: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3354) and I expect, when I play it, the accompanist who doesn't know it to faff about and maybe bail on playing along with it.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
And I agree with llig that the most useful hint another player can give me is to call out the first chord, not the key or mode or whatever. Although, if it is a new one, don't think I didn't hear you when it is an unfamiliar tune, and I wait for one time through to join in!
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I'm crap at calling out keys. Apologies to any accompanist who will ever play with me. It's hard shouting "E minor" and at the same time not trainwrecking the phrase of the tune you're playing.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Thanks, Al, for giving the sure- fire way of solving clashing accompanist dilemna.
About this question/point :"5) Do you know that a tune which doesn’t use a major scale is not simply “minor”, but is likely to use one the modal scales (e,g. Natural Minor, Dorian, Mixolydian etc)?"
Fair play, though I can think of at least 2 backers who can sing a tune & suss out chords without ever thinking about modes.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"b) stay behind the tunes (if anyone notices the guitar, you're likely doing something wrong)" Jon Kiparsky
I'm so not interested in people playing "behind" the tunes. It's worse that pointless, it's distracting. I like to play with people. There are no leaders. The best of this music is ensemble equality. Round a table, shoulder to shoulder. Everybody listening hard and simultaneously being both reactive and proactive. And if anyone doesn't feel that that's where they are in the ensemble, they should either make their utmost effort to play play so quietly no one can hear them, or shut up.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
The ones that sound right, of course.
(sorry)
Take D major:
D E F# G A B C# D
Build the triads:
D F# A
E G B
F# A C#
G B D
A C# E
B D F#
C# E G
For a mode of D, in theory, these chords should work.
Warning: relying on this is likely to get you into trouble. Tunes don't always know that they're supposed to follow these rules.
My first experiments in guitar accompaniment were based on knowing this sort of thing - disaster.
"But this should be right" "It isn't, please stop" "<Sputter sputter>"
I learned, eventually. These rules are helpful to know, but never think about them while you're playing.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
(cross post - the above was in reply at Random's post, above)
Michael - What I meant to say is that the guitar should not obscure the tune, it should be a part of it. You could say the same for any other instrument, really - if you're hearing "concertina plus session" the concertina needs to step back a little. If you're hearing one fiddle above everything else, that fiddler is probably not listening as much as they should. Same goes for the guitar, only more so. The guitar should be heard, but only as part of the whole. Certainly, it should not stand out from the whole.
(why "more so"? Because tunes without guitar are tunes. Guitar without tunes is - well, guitar. The guitar has to be extra careful here, because they can screw things up more than, say, the tin whistle can)
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"I'm crap at calling out keys. Apologies to any accompanist who will ever play with me. It's hard shouting "E minor" and at the same time not trainwrecking the phrase of the tune you're playing."
Another reason the snippet system is nice if you have an idea what tunes you plan to string together.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Today at a session with two other fiddlers I played a handful of tunes on guitar, some of which I play on fiddle, because I actually enjoy playing guitar parts that I have worked out.
When another fiddle player (who is also a guitarist) launches into a string of jigs I haven't learned yet (but I've heard him play multiple times) it sounds good to follow with chords, but maybe that's due to my familiarity with the player and his tunes, despite not playing the melody.
I managed to stop playing at just the right time for each tune to hear the opening phrase of the next, and I waited as long as I needed to and went into mostly the right key and chords every time and found the right voicings to change up the feel of the accompaniment appropriately, I think everyone was enjoying it, although it gave the other fiddler a harder time trying to play along to some, it was because he didn't necessarily know them. Dusty windowsills is possibly an example of a tune I will never play melody to if I have a guitar around and somebody else is playing it, it is such a fun tune to accompany, with it's chordal simplicity and rhythmic complexity
it's good to think and talk about what is appropriate, because often times nobody really knows what is bad until somebody is doing it and you can't put together the words to name the musical abomination.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Reading the above responses, it's clear to me that some have fully understood the reasoning behind of my "check-list" of questions",
Yet some have not, which I find a little worrying.
And a few (notably llig) have understood them well enough, but suggested that they are too idealist - which is probably true.
Committing a melody to memory is not especially difficult - once you got it in your head, it's pretty much there for life. OK, if it's a tune that you haven't played for years you may need a little prompting from another musician playing a couple of bars, for it to come flooding back. Committing a sequence of chords to memory is a lot harder.
As for playing/accompanying a tune that you never heard before, my observation is that most melody players will sit out at least for the first time through before attempting to join in. Not so most guitarists - and the result can often be cacophonic.
And it's especially annopying if it's one of those tunes that changes key/mode between the "A" part and the "B" part. The issue is not with guitarists for ITM, but guitarists playing in sessions.
What is surprising is that many melody players don't even realise when the guitar is out. Once (during a D-Major set) I noticed that the guitar was "out", and asked him afterwards what key he thought we had been playing in. Reply: "G-Major" And yet, no-one else had noticed!
The issue doesn't arise with guitarists in performance bands (where presumably everything is rehearsed) or in ceilidh bands where music with annotated chords can be provided if necessary.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
All true Mix, though melody players need to remember all the notes maybe years down the line whereas guitarists only need to remember the shape of the tune - which is a LOT easier. However the guitarist does have a tricky job making each tune different and interesting from a backing point of view. But that should not be confused with basically learning the rough shape of a tune.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yip - these guitar threads usually end up coming off the rails.... (hopefully with no serious injuries!). I think I'll just stand back and watch from the touchline for now...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Ron P, you may not have seen this bit on a similar thread, it's very touching ~
Re: "It's in G"
That's a very interesting and insightful observation, Jack.
Posted on September 14th 2005 by Dow
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I get your drift bogman, but only up to a point.
What exactly do you mean by: "However the guitarist does have a tricky job making each tune different and interesting from a backing point of view"
That could involve a whole load of things - some of which might be in keeping with the tradition, whereas other things might not be.
Whether melody playing is right or wrong is objective. For example, if you consistently played C# instead of Cnat through three repeats of a G-Major tune, others would notice. They might well glare at you when you playing, or maybe say something to you afterwards.
Chord selection is subjective. There's probably a choice of several at any given point of a tune, none of which are dischordant.
But just because they are not dischordant doesn't mean that they are all necessarily in keeping with the tradition.
You could (for example) substitute an A9 for every AMaj chord in a tune to make the backing "more interesting". I would hear(and not like it!) but most people wouldn't even notice.
I've observed that melody players wil often comment on how good (or bad) a session was without actually realising that their perception of it being good or bad was all down to the guitarist in question.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"I've observed that melody players will often comment on how good (or bad) a session was without actually realising that their perception of it being good or bad was all down to the guitarist in question."
Getting a bit above yourself there I think. I've never ever seen that. Never. The closest I've ever come to that is tune players remarking how pleasant a session was without a strummer, for a change.
Come on now, it's preposterous. You really think that if you overhear some tunes player saying that they "enjoyed the tunes tonight", that they were deluded into thinking there was good tunes played well,but the reality was that it was merely good strumming. Ha.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
AlBrown writes: "It is amazing the snares that lurk just off of the mustard yellow brick road!"
Nice try at a dig, Al, but my mention of the snippet concept was perfectly relevant to what TheSilverSpear said.
~~~
bogman writes: "Do you know such and such? - I'm not good with names how does it go? - No, sorry, snippets are frowned upon at proper sessions. lol"
What I find interesting is how people reject the concept outright even though I see it used a lot by Irish visitors and when I visit Ireland. When we have Irish visitors at our local and they use snippets to identify tunes, everyone is too star-struck perhaps to notice they are using it and go along with no protest. When it's back to just the locals, the same people who cooperated willingly with our guests go back to business as usual and instruct me on how improper it is, or become intentionally obtuse. lol
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
The snippet thing is lovely and polite. It's inclusive and charming. And those who a charmed by openness to be included welcome it. And so they should. Hup for the lovely Oirish.
But when the "Irish visitors" get told to feck off with their charming politeness and just get the feck on with it, every single one I've met are more than glad to be done with it.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I haven't noticed it as any "let's be all polite and formal" but rather more like "do you know this one?" and they will add "how about this one" and you know they intend to play it after. They might add a third too... but it's not seen as 'just being polite.' Mind you they don't try to stop or discourage anyone from not using snippets. I would agree that people who try to stop or discourage listening to and accepting snippets are being impolite though.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I agree that people who try to stop or discourage listening to and accepting snippets are being impolite. There's something very satisfying in having done with politeness when you meet people. And diddley music is a great thing for quickly getting rid of politeness among strangers. Hup diddley music
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I was in the anti snippet crowd with bogman in the last thread about it until I was caught red-handed playing a snippet. The funny part was that I had probably played thousands of snippets before but never even thought about it, hence my position in that thread that they could be annoying. If someone does it all the time, it is, but everything in moderation as they say.
I then thought about why I played the snippet. Basically I wanted to find out if the recipient of my snippet, the fiddler sitting next to me, knew the tune in question. I didn't want to play the tune solo and a lot of people don't know tune names. Maybe your advice would be to suck it up and risk playing the tune solo anyway, but at that moment I didn't feel like playing a tune no one else knew. Better to play a snippet and find out if the people around me know the tune. The fiddler in any case didn't recognize my snippet, so I played something else he did know.
Does that make the Oran Mor less of a "real session?" I don't know......
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Most everyone has used snippets at some time or another, ie: "You know the one I mean, it goes...." But I have never seen any place where they do it as a matter of routine before each set. And I have never seen a place where it is never done at all, or where someone complains about it. So I always get amused how many people line up and take sides, pro and anti snippets. And as a result, just can't take the debate too seriously...
Shouldn't we get back to guitarist bashing here?
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
TheSilverSpear writes: "I then thought about why I played the snippet. Basically I wanted to find out if the recipient of my snippet, the fiddler sitting next to me, knew the tune in question. I didn't want to play the tune solo and a lot of people don't know tune names. Maybe your advice would be to suck it up and risk playing the tune solo anyway, but at that moment I didn't feel like playing a tune no one else knew. Better to play a snippet and find out if the people around me know the tune. The fiddler in any case didn't recognize my snippet, so I played something else he did know."
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Al writes: "And as a result, just can't take the debate too seriously... Shouldn't we get back to guitarist bashing here?"
lol... Al... you helped set fire to the snippet concept on this thread.
Anyway, my only point in bringing it up is because of how useful it is in situations like what SS describes. When I'm at sessions only half the tunes start with snippets unless someone like Joe Burke is guest hosting the session, and then every set starts with snippets. Since I find a lot of usefulness in it, the one of two times during the night when I'm asked to start tunes I will usually use it. If I'm the host the frequency increases dramatically, but I don't insist others abide by the practice when they start tunes. Occasionally I'll abandon it all together for a string of tunes too... it's all good.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"To clarify what I mean my "melodic" music. Up until the 18th century all western music was "melodic" in nature i.e. only suited to be played unaccompanied or with some drone notes or other simple harmony. When this was realised, writing music using most of the old modal scales went out of fashion. The major scale remained (but became more prominent). Some of the semitone intervals of the then existing melodic minor scale were changed, forming the harmonic minor scale."
Loved your list Mix, but OUCH.
1) Western music was on the way to various kinds of polyphony by the 14th century.
2) Modal music become less important in European art music by the mid 17th century and our "normal" major and minor scales become the common ones.
3) Melodic and Harmonic minors are outgrowths of the needs of melodies and harmonies, but one did not, I'm quite sure, inspire the other.
This is off topic and let's not wander off into this stuff. The discussion here is much too interesting.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I like to play guitar, I don't get the chance so much now as for various reasons I lack a regular tune where I enjoy it and so prefer to plonk away on a different type of axe.
Last good tune I had playing guitar was with a mandolin player, who I find inspirational and encouraging to play with, the kind of player who's constantly egging you on taking the music to unexpected places and leading you into uncharted waters, who's enthusiasm infects those around him. So with that type of tune in mind, the kind that I enjoy, here's my answer to the list;
1) No, and you be considered a twit for breaking the spell in the situations I enjoy playing (not so if you occasionally momentarily drop the ball, it's only music after all).
2) N/A
3) No and I actually find it a disadvantage as you fool yourself into thinking you know it instead of listening to how it's actually being presented by someone else which usually demands a slightly different treatment. So, in the head, yes and not at all.
4) Are you having a laugh?
5) See 4)
6) I've got these things stuck to the side of my head that are handy for that, you'll find them just above the bolts.
7) Depends on; the style, whats happening or just happened in the here & now as you've got to keep it interesting, it your duty.
8) No
I find myself agreeing with llig's first post as amongst my tune playing pals thats generally whats expected of the strummer. Keeping things interesting during mega scots sets in the ball park of A or backing the D multitude in ITM can be a challenge (and boring sometimes), especially if the backer thinks in blocks and or formula, as you can all to quickly run out of ideas.
Only a fool would consider themselves a "very good player" in any kind of context on guitar, being "big amongst sheep" is nothing to brag about, especially when there are a few true monsters out there who are truly very good and in every bodies opinion. There's often no accounting for taste in most peoples summing of the "very good" equation, on any instrument, it's horses for courses IMO.
My girlfriend has very exact expectations of what a strummer should be strumming for the most part, lol, an issue on which we often disagree to the point that I don't often enjoy playing with her if I'm backing, despite her being one of the better players I'm lucky enough to get a tune with on occasion. The mandolin player, that I mentioned at the beginning of this rant, his attitude is; what do you make of this....... and that? Rather than; I expect to hear that! I prefer the former.
I play for the sake of playing coz in the right circumstances I enjoy it. If my guitar playing isn't to your taste, don't ask me out for a tune, thats my attitude. Funnily enough, the people I do enjoy playing with are the ones who do ask me out to play, ain't that weird.........
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@cboody - apologies for the OUCH.
OK, maybe I made a bit of a generalisation regarding that century. And it also rather depends on which types of music you would be talking about. But I would still maintain that polyphonic music didn't become generally mainstream until the 18th century. The process even continued into the 19th century - e.g. with the Victorians getting rid of the old hymns and writing new ones.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@cboody - your point is totally right. Just a reinforcement, if I may. Precursors of polyphony were established by the start of the 12th century, and real polyphonic and contrapuntal writing was well established by the end of the 13th century. (I often suspect that, in secular music, harmony - a different thing from polyphony per se - was always there. What were all those guitar thingies, and lutes and stuff for?)
Tonal music arose out of ideas which were around at the end of the 15th century - although admittedly didn't get properly going for a bit. 1600 is sometimes taken as the dividing line. But, if you look at Machaut's music (14th century), it's hard at times to shoehorn it into properly modal music, and the cadences certainly seem to modern ears like something at least halfway towards tonal music.
I know you said don't wander off into this stuff ... sorry ... I'll shut up now ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
No, you;re a few centuries out, Mix. Note that the 14th century polyphony was not only highly complex, being as this article says, simplified in the 15th century as a reaction against that complexity, but also highly chromatic.
But to say that polyphony didn't become mainstream until the 18th century ignores all Renaissance music (polyphonic) and most of the Baroque.
Link to the article I referred to (only Wiki, i'm afraid, but it gives the gist):
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@llig - I think that you have misunderstood me.
My observation was based on two consectutive sessions at the same pub. Pretty much the same bunch of melody players on both occasions - but a different guitarist. One session was a whole lot better than the other - mainly because it included a guitarist who really knew what he was doing.
I'm sure that you would agree that It's perfectly possible to have a good session without a guitar - you've said as much in other posts to this board.
Indeed, far better to have no guitarist at all than to have one who spoils it for the melody players ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@ethical blend - OK, Wiki has it all!
But the issue here is just one of semantics
The point that I was trying to make (albeit unsuccessfully) was that the virtual complete takeover of polyphonic music didn't happen until the 18th Century.
Quite a lot of traditional (melodic) music played today has been resurrected from fiddler's fake books and other manuscripts with 18th century dates.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix, sorry, went to bed there...
>What exactly do you mean by: "However the guitarist does have a tricky job making each tune different and interesting from a backing point of view"<
Well, that doesn't have to be looked into any deeper than that. I mean really what you've said above. Though I prefer rhythmic variety and taking out rather than adding inflections as variety. As far as the melody players perception of what has made a good session - certainly round here they are more than aware that it's the tunes, interaction and energy that are the main thing. I have to say there has never been a session here, or any I can think of that has been 'made' by the guitarist. And that is not a criticism - I just think a bad guitar can ruin a session but a good one can is governed by the strength of the tune players. The best accompanying guitarist in the world can not make the tune playing any better and cannot make a session simply by good accompaniment.
Silver Spear, I think you have picked me up wrong. I am most definitely not in an "anti -snippet" crowd. I think playing snippets before lots of sets would be a bit weird and I don't ever remember a session where that happened. But sometimes with visitors at a session the odd snippet is fine. Usually only for the first tune in a set though. It would almost never happen at our session unless there were non regulars there - someone would just start some tunes - most of us make a conscious effort to learn the tunes that others play that we don't know.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix, just missed your second last post there. Sounds there like one competent guitarist and one dodgy one. If the tune players don't recognize that then it would say more about these particular players than melody players in general.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Well, Mix, your original point was that *harmony* didn't come in until the 18th century. Actually, harmony has always been there. Polyphony? Depends what you mean by "complete takeover". Firstly, that's not what you said before. Secondly, if you mean to the extent that it currently is, then the answer is the same - by the end of the 13th century. There's still "purely melodic" music, now just as there was then. And there was just as much polyphony then as now - probably more.
That's if you accept that you can have "purely melodic" music in any case ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Going off on a tangent here, I know (we were talking about tunes, not songs) but does anyone feel that this type of song would be "improved" with a guitar backing?
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
bogman writes: "But sometimes with visitors at a session the odd snippet is fine. Usually only for the first tune in a set though. It would almost never happen at our session unless there were non regulars there"
Funny, I've been to many sessions around Ireland were snippets are the rule more then the exception. These were usually sessions with top drawer players as well and they happened in places where I was renting a house for a week to a month and attending the sessions regularly. But as I said before; this is how I first noticed the whole snippet thing and then I would recognize it being used elsewhere in varying degrees. One thing I never saw in Ireland was anyone protesting it or discouraging it the way I see happening in this forum and sometimes at my local sessions.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
One thing that strummers often do that I'd rather they didn't, is to make use of what they'd describe as the "implied harmony" of a tune.
There's a school of thought that reckons the applied harmony is some sort of pure objective physics. It's not. It's completely cultural. And the specific applied harmonies that strummers often bring to the tunes is not from the culture the tunes are from.
An example is the desire to ground every tune with a root. This often manifests itself by the desire to resolve an open fourth down to the maj third. (it's difficult to talk about it because I have to use the language based on roots, ie, fourths and thirds, but you should get my drift.)
I've often heard it said that strummers should take note of the modes of tunes. This is all very well, but more important than this bland set of categorisations should be a clear knowledge of what notes are NOT in the tune. Don't just hear a root, recognise a mode, and jump in with sets of chords that you have pre-assembled to fit.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
PB, that's fair enough, I never noticed it in Ireland but not been at many sessions there, I was referring to my own experiences which are mostly here in Scotland.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
There's another school of guitar playing in sessions which sort of goes like this:
* Tune guitar to DADGAD
* Play chords with lots of ninths and not many thirds
* Avoid clearly recognisable straight chords at any cost
This does sort of preserve the ambiguity of (a lot of) the tunes. But the downside is that it muddies the waters, so to speak. The guitar can end up either too prominent, or providing a sort of soft focus mush into which the tunes sink.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I go to sessions in Ireland a lot. The snippet thing happens sometimes. Occasionally. But not all that much, and so what, in any case? It's OK - it's not the worst sin, but it's not usually necessary.
The only time I've seen it happen much is when the "session" is, in reality, a gig, and the snippet thing happens between the paid "seeds".
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
The sessions I saw and took part in had paid hosts or anchors, but were great sessions nonetheless regardless of the ample use of snippets. I did notice when I was in Ennis one year during the month that the trad fest came and went, that the snippets were used less and less during the fest week because the sessions increased in size with mostly participants from around Europe and the US as well as from around Ireland. But when the trad fest was over and everyone went home again things got back to normal and the use of snippets returned to it's usual frequency.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yes, recognising roots can be important, But always be aware that there may not be one. What I'm complaining off is strummers forcing harmony on to tunes, grounding them when they don't want to be. A strong ambiguous tune can handle some ninths and sixths and certainly benefits from fewer thirds. But I prefer the ambiguity of fourths, as they straddle that lovely coexistence of being also a fifth below.
But I'm not knocking major thirds. Bring em on in bucket loads for all those relentlessly jolly tunes I also love so much.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
All right, fair enough. I know some individuals who use snippets all the time and others who hardly use them at all. I don't think it's an Irish thing, a Scottish thing, an American thing, or really anything you can ascribe to the session culture of a particular geographical area; I think some people do it, some do it a lot, and others don't.
No one's bothered with it. Although if you're a frequent offender, there's a chance you might get slagged. Someone (me, frequently, at the Oran Mor. hah!) might shout across the table, "Are you playing a tune or just noodling around?"
One thing Mix doesn't have in his list but I think is really bloody important.... rhythm. I like guitarists who provide a really solid rhythm (the same one you set. No speeding up). I've encountered tons of accompanists who play perfectly nice chords but the strumming does not have any rhythmic power. A really good one can even help an uncertain melody player with their timing. I made some big leaps and bounds in my playing last year when I was playing with this guitarist who had an amazing sense of timing and rhythm. I also expect that even when I f*ck up a tune, the guitarist will keep the rhythm train going so I can quickly recover and hop back on. I remember playing tunes with a guitarist, who was a nice player, but I stumbled over a phrase of a tune and he backed off playing. I then flailed about quite a lot, in a sort of panic. Eventually found the tune but never quite in the same groove as I started it. I said to the guitarist that even if I cock up the rhythm, it's much better for him to keep going anyway so I can find the groove again. He said, "Well, you're the melody player. It's your job to keep the rhythm going." Which I agreed is completely true, but I'm not an amazing enough player to not cock things up on occasion, so I like an accompanist who can keep me right when necessary.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Your quite right, Silver Spear. My list should have included a question or two about rhythmn.
I'm aware that there are sometimes problems concerning guitars and rhythm from other posts to this board, though I've never encountered this myself (except perhaps the "smoothing out" of the melody players' syncopation when backing polkas).
That's probably why I omitted to include it. And certainly, if a guitarist starts to speed up, its very difficult for the melody musicians to counter it.
Whilst it might sometimes be handy to to have a guitarist keep the rhythm going if you stumble over a tune, I don't think that you can rely upon it, as it's the guitarist who should be following what the melody players are doing - not the other way around ...
I good question to ask oneself before starting a tune:
"If nobody joins in, could I play it once through without faltering?"
If the answer is "no", it's probably best not to start it ....
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"Acceptable backing for an unknown tune would be more likely to be achieved using DADGAD than standard tuning."
Is that because of the tendency to use ambiguous chord voicings (is that a Gsus2 or a Dsus4 or an A7sus4)? Sounds a bit like "soft focus mush".
"More important ...should be a clear knowledge of what notes are NOT in the tune."
Does that mean you shouldn't use notes that are not in the tune in any of your accompanying chords? What happens if the tune only has two notes? Then, technically speaking, you can't use any chords to accompany the tune.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
But more seriously if a tune is pentatonic - say D major pentatonic, for the sake of argument - does that mean you wouldn't use any G or C# notes in your accompanying chords?
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Oops!. What happened there?: Pressed something I shouldn't have.
That seems a good set of criteria, Mix, if not quite all encompassing. But there are couple of questions I'd question:
3) Can you play the melodies of all the tunes that you accompany on a “standard” session melody instrument?
What's wrong with playing the melodies on guitar (I assume "standard" excludes guitar)
7) Do you refrain from playing arpeggio chords and bass runs, except perhaps for waltzes?
I can't see why arpeggios would be inherently inappropriate. Strumming may be the easiest way to emulate the rhythms of the tunes, but a bit of judicious arpeggiation would seem a good way to break the monotony.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by bass runs. If you're talking about jazz-style walking bass, or funky bass grooves then, yes, I can see it would be hard to use them sympathetically to the tunes. But the movement of bass notes is very important in accompanying traditional tunes; a coherent progression of bass notes can make difference between propelling the tune forward and merely filling out the sound.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Another record-breaking post...
Knowing what notes are not in the tune is one thing. Knowing what notes can't be in the tune is another. Blarney Pilgrim, for example, doesn't have an F or an F# in its simplest version. But if you were to put in one of those notes, it would almost certainly be an F#, not an F natural. And if you were (just supposin') to put a D chord in there somewhere (on some wild whim), a Dm would be more, um, interesting - not to say wrong - than than a D major.
Likewise, Sporting Paddy usually doesn't have a C or a C#, but I suspect that someone putting in one of those notes would reach for the Cnat rather than the C#, and your guitar playing should reflect that - A mix would be a strange choice on that tune.
You have to be able to hear the notes that aren't in the tune, and figure out which ones you can use in the accompaniment.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@DonaldK
If we are talking ITM, I don't know of any pentatonic tunes.
I'm not sure what you mean by "D Major Pentatonic". There are several pentatonic scales possible, with a tonic of D.
But (hopefully) to clarify - whatever the key or mode - I don't think that you should be playing any chord which includes a note that does not occur in the melody.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
DonaldK, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If a tune in D has neither a Cnat or a Csharp, then yes, when strumming, you shouldn't play either note.
The inclusion of a major of minor 7th in a tune are two very distinct flavours and very important to those tunes that have them. And a lack of either is also very important. It's the ambiguousness that makes it. So when your pentatonic D tune moves its centre to A for a bar or two you must resist playing either an Amaj triad or an Amin triad ... you must leave out the third. If you put the third in you are doing exactly what I warn against, you are shoehorning a harmony onto the tune that is not there.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@CreadurMawnOrganig - no doubt there are guitarists around capable of of playing all the session standards on a standard-tuned guitar - I just haven't met one yet!
And (to my ear anyway) if you are going to have a guitar playing melody at a session, I would prefer it to be a tenor guitar.
And - to clarify - when I said bass runs - I did indeed mean the "walking bass to which you referred.
If you listen to old ITM recordings from the 30's, there is quite often a piano player in with the musicians, doing a kind of "walking bass". Authentic for the period it may be, and (speaking personally) I don't care for it
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
There's a lot you can do with notes that form the melody when it comes to building chords, whether adding to the bottom or the top in fact it's all you need. Especially on those tunes which use a couple of modes/scales it's actually quite expansive.
You don't need all the notes all the time (sage advice from Alex the Devil Worshiper) What you do need though is a good right hand (or left if your a south paw).
Just because a tune only uses the D pentatonic notes from a D major scale doesn't necessarily exclude the 4th and 7th of that major scale as it could be questionable whether the melody just used those 5 notes or was in fact a pentatonic, playing chords with those notes would soon tell you, if your listening. Thats the stuff of mega threads though......... A soul could lose ones mind.
llig " And a lack of either is also very important. It's the ambiguousness that makes it. So when your pentatonic D tune moves its centre to A for a bar or two you must resist playing either an Amaj triad or an Amin triad ... you must leave out the third. If you put the third in you are doing exactly what I warn against, you are shoehorning a harmony onto the tune that is not there"
Take a tune like Beare island reel, first part; the shift from Maj to min 3rd is what really makes people buy you a pint so in that sense it's important and theres' no room for ambiguity in that part of the tune. In the rest of the first part & the 2nd you could leave out the third in places if you wanted to IMVHOTI.
Mix, you need to get out more often. Standard rocks......
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix - I guess I don't see much sense in that rule. How many G tunes actually feature a "c" in the melody? Surprisingly few of them. Plenty of them have big, obvious C chords in them somewhere, though. Donnybrook Fair comes to mind, just as an example.
The rule also fails to rule out notes that appear in the tune, but are wrong in this particular part (c nat in the first part of Nine Points of Roguery, for example, or Fnat in the first part of Chief O'Neill's).
But the real problem is that this rule assumes the guitarist has a list of "the notes in this tune" in their head, which has not got anything to do with the way we learn tunes or represent them in our heads. In the standard term of art, this rule has no "psychological reality". It doesn't actually represent anything that's going on in the player's head when they play, any more than the dots and lines on the page do.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Well, the third and fourth parts of the Jig of Slurs don't have any Cs in them, for an obvious reason. But I would not take that to mean I wasn't allowed to play a C chord.
And, llig, if we are expected to accompany tunes we don't know how are we supposed to Know what notes are not in the tune until the tune has been played at least once?
Mix, the major pentatonic scale is generally taken to be 1, 2 , 3, 5 & 6 of the Ionian mode. The minor pentatonic is the 1, 3, 4, 5 & 7 of the Aeolian.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Of course I'm not talking about pentatonics specific to ITM or ATM or whatever. I'm well aware that in ITM a common "minor" pentonic is 1, 2, 4, 5 & 7.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Hi-Yo Silver Spear!
Let me consider a few G-Maj tunes ....
... all very well-known:
Father Kelly's (Reel)
Blackthorn Stick (Jig)
Navvy on the Line (Hornpipe)
Begley's (Polka)
Well they all contain a "C", don't they?
Sure, there are tunes where one note of the scale does not occur in the tunes. You then have to listen to the tune in its entirety and decide whether it's hex or whether its major that doesnt happen to incude a particular note anywhere in it. Even when theory fails, you ear should tell you.
BTW Donnybrook Fair is G-Major in the first part, but modulates to E Natural Minor in the second part...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
DonaldK "Try The Britches full of Stitches. Notes are D - E - F# - A - B = D major pentatonic"
I don't know the tune but if an Em or F#m fitted comfortably in with the accompaniment then chances are it's just the major scale minus the 4th and 7th, rather than an actual pentatonic. Daft I know but thats how I'd view it. In the trad game we've a tendency to over complicate things.
Granted, there are a lot of tunes in G that are pentatonic or hexatonic, thus avoiding the 4th step of the scale. But I find it an odd assertion that there are few tunes in G that feature a C. (Although, to be fair, Jon K, you did say "*surprisingly* few"; perhaps you are surprised how few there are; perhaps *I* would be if I made a more detailed study.)
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Quickly ducking back in -
Re: Donnybrook Fair - I hear it in G all the way through, although you could surely start the B part on Em without causing any harm. I can't place the C chords in it for you without playing the tune, but I hear them when I play it.
@Emily - Let's say that when I went to find tunes in G to play on the D harmonica, I was looking for tunes which didn't have a C natural, or at least which only had C nats in un-emphasized places. I found a hell of a lot of them. I might still have the list at home somewhere. There's plenty of G tunes, with C chords, that don't have C in the melody. There are also plenty of G tunes with Cs in them, of course, but the ones without the C are what poke a hole in the rule Michael suggested.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@DonaldK
Good spot, that! Yes, and I do know Britches full of Stitches, and (as you say) it only uses five notes.
I don't understand the notes that you mention, though. Maybe you play it with a diiferent root.
The tune that I know has a root of A, and uses A-B-C#-E-F.
Whether it's in a major scale with two notes not used (as suggested by Solidmahog), or whether its a true pentatonic scale tune, I wouldn't like to say. The version that I know can be backed as if it were an A-major tune (A-Maj, E-Maj and D-Maj). But if it's pentatonic, you would have to omit the third when playing an E-Maj chord, to avoid breaking llig's rule!
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Here are a few that come to mind...
The West Clare
Sean Reid's
Munster Jig
Duke of Leinster
Woodcock
Lord MacDonald
Swinging on the Gate
Smell of the Bog
Jimmy Ward's Jig
Milliner's Daughter
Gold Ring
Tom Ward's Downfall
The Rookery
Cregg's Pipes
Bantry Bay
Humours of Ennistymon
Coppers and Brass
When the Cock Crows it is Day
Humours of Derrykissane
I am sure there are zillions more than that but that is what I could think of offhand, noodling around my repertoire for about twenty minutes.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I've been thinking about this and I reckon there's a difference between a tune that is missing its 3rd or 7th and a tune that's missing its 4th. (this, of course, is assuming that the root is obvious - otherwise there would be no such identifiable thing as a 3rd, etc)
I don't think there is much ambiguity in a tune that misses its 4th (for example, a G tune with no C). If your tune clearly is resolving to G and there's prominent maj 3rds and maj 7ths (ie, lots of Gmaj and Dmaj chords) and there's a big moment in it where E is a prominent resting note, then I'd say go ahead and play the Cmaj chord. It's always gonna work a lot better than the rather limp Emin.
What I was referring to earlier is the lack of 3rds and/or 7ths.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I have finally found llig making a statement that is just flat-out wrong. He stated that all the best G major tunes have Cs in them. But Out on the Ocean, the best tune of them all, and a tune in G major, is devoid of any Cs, of either the natural or sharp variety. So there you go, wrong, wrong, wrong!
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Al, during the last run up to the g on the B part I play it dc#d def# gf#e dba. I always thought I was slopping it if I did a triplet(banjo) on the d and ignored the c#?
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I've never heard anyone put that c# in. The first part is pentatonic, and the second part just has a couple of f#'s as passing notes. Personally, I'd rather keep it as Al has it, without either C's or C#'s.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
If you think Out on the Ocean is "the best tune of them all", you seriously need to get out more.
However, case in point about the C chord, Yeah, play it when it goes to the E in the second part. (And I've heard the c# in that little run and it works OK, if that's what floats your boat.)
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@DonaldK, yes (applying llig's rule!) there would be an issue with Dmaj chords as well. Dunno why I didn't notice that!
... which would leave you wth only an AMaj chord! Well, I guess that you "could" drone away all the way through with just that chord, but personally I think that it would be better backed as if it were an A-Maj tune: i.e. using AMaj, EMaj & Dmaj.
Is a tune pentatonic? - Or major with just some notes not used?
An analogy: you wouldn't be able to conclude that the Welsh language didn't contain the letter "Q" just by reading one sentence of Welsh - to conclude that, you would need to consult a Welsh dictionary.
The tunes that we are talking about mostly only contain 16 bars (discounting the repeats).
Is that enough data on which to draw a conclusion? I'm not really sure.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
You can't use that "logic" argument. It doesn't work. It's like the daft creationists saying that just because no human skeleton has ever been found in a layer of strata underneath the layers where you find dinosaurs, doesn't mean that one will never be found.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Just because a tune is pentatonic doesn't mean the accompaniment has to be "pentatonic" as well, in my opinion.
Saying that the accompaniment can only use note used in the melody seems purely arbitrary to me and has nothing to do with listening. You might as well say that the notes have to be at the same pitch as well.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
And remember that the missing notes of the scale will be there in the overtone series of the existing notes. (And don't forget all the addition tones and difference tones created from double stringing.)
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
What about trying to sneak either of those notes into a run or the middle of a triplet or something and see if it sounds as if it could belong ? My ear often lets missing 3rds through but less commonly missing 7ths. Great discussion Mix.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Several people have questioned Llig's "rule". But I don't remember him saying that it was a rule, which implies that it has to be stuck to no matter what, just that it would be nice if accompanists were sympathetic to the amiguities inherent in tunes with 'gaps'.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Perhaps I'm being a pleb, but to be quite honest, I can't be arsed with all this theory crap about accompaniment. Personally, for the most part, I try to keep things not too busy, stuff about with my fingers, and if it sounds crap, I stop doing what I'm doing, or do something else. Life's too short - I'd prefer to be playing some tunes on the fiddle than reading all of the contributions to this thread. So, please excuse me (runs out off yellow mustard board, ducking a volley of hot air... ).
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Donald K; Perhaps the major pentatonic scale isn't the best example.
When a tune has a melody that uses notes of a key signature that has say 1 # and is largely major in character it could easily be confused, by the unwary aspirant strummer, as belonging to a key signature which boasts 2 #'s and therefor likely to upset the strummers fellow sessioneers by the strummers lack of . The inclusion of said extra # in the chords used wouldn't sound nice or correct. I think in fairness this is what Mr Mix is driving at in 5) & 6) of his list, it's been done to death to be honest and I think, although I could be wrong, his intention was to court and generate some kind of controversial intrigue on the mustard board. But I think you know that.
My own approach, especially for ITM on the backing is to try and compliment the tunes in what I see as a complimentary in context style. As is pointed out with startling regularity here, guitar/general chordal accompaniment is relatively new to ITM STM, comparatively speaking, so just what comprises accompaniment in a complimentary in context is largely subjective and varies from ear to ear. Therefor my backing is constantly subject to revision and experimentation on my part. On analysis, I do tend to find that notes of any given tune tend to reflect the notes which I've chosen to alter or build chords with. My analysis is usually retrospective as over the years I've learned by trial and error adding to my tool box as I go.
As to overtone series and harmony that is and isn't there, thats perhaps best left unsaid as the last time that one was dragged out it caused no end of trouble.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
When I listen to a tune I don't analyse it in terms of sharps or flats. I try to find a tonal centre and work from there. I can, for the most part hear the chords. Just as when melody players are playing tunes they don't think about the names of the notes so I don't necessarily think of the names of the chords. I think?
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
If a piece of music was 1000 bars long and used 6 or 7 notes for a section in the middle would some people say that part of it was pentatonic and part was not ?
Does it matter when the gaps are filled ? Does the tune have to have got far enough for the ear to have appreciate it as gapped. (this said by the person with whistle who wishes he had stayed lurking but has decided that starting the Kesh with GF#G is not much of a test)
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I'm gonna have to spell this out. It's OK if some of you are not bothered with it, but if you're not, don't waste space by replying.
You have to ask, are the missing notes important to the flavour of the harmony. Why?
Take a tune/scale that is, from the root: tone, tone, three semitones, tone tone, semitone - eg. a Gmaj tune with no C. The Cnat is certainly implied here. Hence, the Cmaj triad is appropriate. No one would ever think that it is Csharp that is implied. Your ear just wouldn't imply it. This is what I mean about it being cultural. Implied harmonies exist because your brain fills in the gaps form experience. ie, experience of, in this case, the major scale.
Now take a tune that is, from the root: tone, three semitones, tone, tone, tone, semitone - i.e. what could be a Gmaj tune with no B. Or more commonly with this music, what could be a Dmaj tune with no F#. The reason this is a very different case from the above is that such a tune does not imply the major third and it's very important to keep this ambiguity. Such a tune, within this tradition, could just as equally imply the minor third, or even, though less commonly now, a note in between the major and minor third.
It's the tune's responsibility to be what it is. And it's the strummer's responsibility to allow it to be what it is. Don't give it the major or the minor third just because your ears say that that's the way you hear it. If you give it either you ruin the ambiguity.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
That was a quick visit to the vet's, Donald! - I trust that your canine is canny ...
Regrading chords for staright EDor tune, it's interesting to see that you and I are (amost) in agreement ...
... the only difference being that whereas you say "mostly Em and D", I would say "only Em and D" - unless of course the tune modulated in any way, in which case different chords might well apply.
But I'll have to confess that my question was something of "leading" one - i.e to demonstrate that theory (as well as lugs) can be useful when determining which chords to play ...
Here is a tune, I'll call it "Cunla" after the recording by Liam O'Flynn w/Planxty. I have always enjoyed his version. There are some Abcs in the comments
T:?
May 21st 2001 by Jeremy http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/34
Our session plays a tune (maybe this tune) which was originally referred to as "The Frieze Britches" (now sometimes "Cunla"*) but we start it off with c naturals.
Anyhow, just thought I'd tag that on this thread; if for no other reason than to let anyone who hasn't heard this by Liam O'Flynn ... IMHO, it's worth a listen ;)
* I do play something of the version from the tune comments, though probably no more than a couple of rare occassions in our session.
How about addressing Mix’s original question to those at a session who accompany on things other than strummy things?
Obviously the same ‘rules’ and theories are relevant to note/ diad/ chord selection.
I mean asking box players left hands, the occasional regulating piper, that rarity: the harpist, plus pianists and harmoniumists (or wotteffah other keyboard based backers you may run in to). Then there’s the droney fiddling stuff and the occasional pizzicato/ sforzando twangs fiddlers may do.
When backing is being criticized, it’s always the six string devil botherers and to a lesser extent the ‘zoukers (who are slightly protected on account of most of them playing in a GDAE tuning which suits and feels at home with the melody-ists!). I won’t mention the baritone ukuleleists!!! The players above (box/ pipes/ harp/ fiddle) rarely get moaned about. Do they always get it right? Similarly banjoists who sort of half play the tune and half twang away on roots never seem to get slagged.
Maybe if the strummers looked (listened) to the good box players’ left hands, they wouldn’t make such a mess of it (although. Of course, some box players play nothing with their left or drone away on one button).
By the way, it’s all very well knowing or working out what key/ mode as tune is in but often you can get phlummoxed by the tune not starting on the I chord. e.g. Rakish Paddy is in D mix but starts on the VII chord.
Lastly, how do piano accordionists select which of the zillions of tiny buttons to push and keep it appropriate?
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I prefer just a sort of power chord thing for the start of Rakish Paddy. D, A and c. Then, a couple of bars later, the 'standard' power chord of D, A and d. Try it for a change - see what you think ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I often play Rakish Paddy without taking my ring finger off the third fret of the B string, which means there is a droning D throughout the tune (standard tuning). And I pivot the other fingers around that anchor. I start with a C chord, with that D in it (which makes it what? a C+9 chord?} and then there are D chords, and A chords still with that D in them (is that an Asus4?), and maybe a few other chords in passing here and there, but always with that D in the middle.
I always thought it gave the tune a very pipey, droning feel, but perhaps I would be due for a kicking from llig if he were nearby!
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I can't really think of many E dorian tunes that don't change key or mode in the B part though. Cooley's stays in E Dor, but many others move to D major or G major for some time at which point you should use chords appropriate for that specific part of the tune that also leads well back to the original key for the repeat.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I find that as you go you learn which tunes start with which chord, moves to which key or tonal centre, you learn if it resolve back to the original root or resolve to the root of the change etc.
Rakish Paddy a good example but it's just the tip of the iceberg, when backing I think about Rakish Paddy in terms of it being back to front chords wise. It's about getting to know the tunes, It's a D chord, but hold on; this ones really in G and so on........... It's all about knowing the tunes or at least noting which tunes do what.
They're claiming it to be "an English melodeon Tune" called Tom o' Vickers. In reality an Irish polka called Tom McVicar's (but probably more commonly known as 69th Street, Galway Belle or Galway Rogue).
But, (leaving that title detail to one side) it's a straight EDorian tune.
The accompaniament (though not dischordant in any way) jars my ears as I don't feel that it is in keeping with the tune.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I think this whole debate is rather mute when comparing to band/performance/recording/arrangement things. When you are arranging things for performance, an interesting and different/strange harmony can work well. It's your performance, you can do what ever you want, arrange the most outlandish harmonies etc. And your audience will compose itself of people who share your taste.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Sorry if the debate has moved on, but I was wondering. If a tune in G with no 7th is played on the pipes could it be avoiding the 3rd of the drone as much as the 7th of the scale ?
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yes, and it used to mean something that was so important, it would be brought up at the moot. Now, it almost means the opposite - something which is of academic interest only.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix
I didnt think that accompaniament was too bad but it came from hearing the tune from an english/morris perspective and setting including dancing . .In an Irish session I would expect a different bounce and pattern different dancing and playing.
As for if it is an irish or english tune such things are lost in the mists of time I dont see the point in trying to claim a tune as anyones
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@bazouki dave
I wasn't commenting on the "pattern or bounce"! As my interests extend across the Irish, Scottish and English traditions, I'm quite familar with the style that English morris tunes are played.
My point was just that some (but not all) of the chords that they were using were treading on the tune - with the inference that I wouldn't like to heqr those kinds of chords used for accompaniment at a session. What these guys do in a performance situation is another matter, as llig as alreaded noted.
The tune in question actually has a passing resemblance to the tune that is used for an English traditional song called "Rambling Sailor"
But one thing's for sure: the tune is not known as "Tom O Vickers" - and it never has been.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
We played "Tom McVicar's" (or whatever it's name is) at our English session last night - with no backers. So no problems for the session. I didn't know the tune so just sat back an listened. So again no problems for the session.
Afterwards there was a short discussion of the name, headed up mainly by our good Mr Mix.
I haven't checked yet, but is it here in the Tunes database? If not, then it should be, it's a cracking tune.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
A mischevious thought ....
If someone played me this tune (per abc below), and afterwards told me that it was entitled "Mary Black-Smith ", would it be right to add this name to the list of alternate names for the tune?
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Well, those whose native language isn't English, or whose command of English spelling may leave a little to be desired (the two conditions aren't necessarily coterminous, of course), could perhaps come up with something like "Mary Black-Smith" or "Mary Black Smith". However, unless a genuine specimen is found in the wild (perhaps on a CD listing), I'd be inclined not to add it to a list of alternate tune names - too much of this and things could get a bit out of hand and Jeremy might get cross.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
As for the questions with which Mix started this discussion, here are my replies:
Yes to the first question;
Yes to the second question;
No to the third question;
A most definite YES to the fourth question;
Yes to the fifth question;
Yes to the sixth question;
No the seventh question;
And, last but no least, No to the eighth and last question.
As for question number two, at our local session, the guitarist and myself usually try to sit next to each other so we can be sure we are "playing the same chords at the same points of the tune".
As for question number seven, I don't arpeggiate chords unless it is one of the rare occasions when I am playing the melody and accompanying myself (especially on slower tunes). As for "bass runs", I am also a bass player as well as a pianist and it is second nature to me to include bass runs while I am playing.
Originally, I was only going to read this discussion and wasn't going to make any comments since I play piano instead of guitar; however, after reading through all two hundred plus comments, I decided to try to make the situation worse by posting some comments of my own.
The guitarist and myself don't expect the melody players at our local session to tell us what key they are playing in. Instead, we are expected to guess the key and come up with a "creative" and appropriate accompaniment. Whatever we are playing should fit into what the rest of the musicians at the session are playing and shouldn't stand out or be noticeable amongst what the other musicians are playing.
Yes it is better to have no accompanist than to have one who inadvertently ruins and destroys a session because they are inexperienced and don't know what they are doing or how to do it.
Llig Leahcim warns against trying to "ground every tune with a root" and he reminds us that accompanists/backup musicians need a "clear knowledge of what notes are NOT in the tune. Don't just hear a root, recognise a mode, and jump in with sets of chords that you have pre-assembled to fit." Which I think is important to know and remember--speaking from my own experience.
When I was playing piano at a local blues jam before I began playing piano at the local Irish music sessions, I learned not to try to force harmonies onto certain tunes which didn't require the third of the chord. The root and the fifth of the chord were enough for certain tunes.
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Donald, blame the World Cup. Last weekend my broadband staggered almost to a halt for the best part of a day - presumably because most of the soccer enthusiasts nearby were grabbing most of the bandwidth either by watching it on their PC or downloading it from the BBC iPlayer - in HD of course.
Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
1) When a tune is started at a session that you do not already know, do you always listen to it at least once though before attempting to join in?
2) If another guitarist is present (and playing), do you have some means of ensuring that you are always both playing the same chords at the same points of the tune?
3) Can you play the melodies of all the tunes that you accompany on a “standard” session melody instrument?
4) Are you aware of the essentially “melodic” nature of ITM?
5) Do you know that a tune which doesn’t use a major scale is not simply “minor”, but is likely to use one the modal scales (e,g. Natural Minor, Dorian, Mixolydian etc)?
6) Do you know which chords are suited to the common modal-scale keys?
7) Do you refrain from playing arpeggio chords and bass runs, except perhaps for waltzes?
8) Did you answer “yes” to all of the above questions?
- If you did, I think the chances are that you would be considered to be a very good session guitarist by most melody players.
- If you did not, you *might* be a good session guitarist, but I think that it’s unlikely.
(I guess that this might turn out to be a rather contoversial discussion – but I do assure you that I am being sincere).
No doubt melody-only players might have views on this, so I look forward to reading comments from them as well ….
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix, that's a mighty list and proper, though in all honesty, I'd settle for a yes on just 1& 2 most of the time.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I believe that both of our guitarists can answer "yes" to all of the above... they don't both play guitar at the same time, they switch off on mandolin, playing melody, so only one backer at a time. They are both fabulous, sensitive players... who both happen to be married to the fiddle players (I'm one of them)!
and they won't be on here answering for themselves because they don't frequent the board, they are too busy playing the tunes. ha!
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Wyogal
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Answers:
1) It depends on the expectations of the melody players. I don't particularly like trying to accompany tunes I don't know but sometimes when I try to sit a tune out a melody player will shout "G" or something similar.
2) If another guitarist is present and playing then I generally don't join in.
3) Probably not, but I can play most of them on the guitar (melodies, that is).
4)Um, are most tunes not melodic (from whichever part of the globe)?
5)I reckon my theory is hotter than that of most melody players.
6)I do, but I don't use the mode of a tune to decide chords what chords to play. I use the tune.
7)I have to confess I don't play an awful lot of Irish tunes. It's mainly Scottish for me and for those tunes I'll sometimes use bass runs - where I deem appropriate.
8) No
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
My typing ain't that hott.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
what they normally do is identify the key of the tune then they can play it.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by James Morgan
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Excellent list, Mix - I'm tempted to stick it on the door to our pub!
Now, if you could kindly extend it to cover all other 'backing' instruments, and also provide a complementary list for melody players...
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Rick Payman
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Well, I must say that I'm pleased and surprised!
Whilst I feel that there were good points to be made in the questions that I raised, I was rather expecting a torrent of abuse!
I guess that's yet to come ...
But thank you all for your polite responses thus far ....
To answer a couple of the points raised in those responses:
Yes, many a time I've I've heard a melody player call out the key just before changing into a dfferent tune, but only "something-or-other" major or "something-or-other" minor. I've never heard anyone call out "D Mix" or "A-Dorian" for example.
To clarify what I mean my "melodic" music. Up until the 18th century all western music was "melodic" in nature i.e. only suited to be played unaccompanied or with some drone notes or other simple harmony. When this was realised, writing music using most of the old modal scales went out of fashion. The major scale remained (but became more prominent). Some of the semitone intervals of the then existing melodic minor scale were changed, forming the harmonic minor scale.
These two scales - major and harmonic minor are the ones that are mainly formally taught today.
However, the common people stayed with the modal keys that they were used to - i.e. the sort of music still played in pub sessions.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
How about a sign saying "Flute Good, Guitar Bad" or, to please the stringie people "Four stings Good, Six Strings Bad".
Or howabout:
"All Musicians are Equal But Some are More Equal Than Others"
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@ethical blend - regarding your hypothetical signs, (if my memory of Orwell's "Animal Farm" serves me correctly), those tactics didn't work too well ....
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
do you know what a harmonic minor scale is? The most common minor scales used in western music are the natural minor and the melodic minor. Harmonic minor is referring to a scale that has this order of whole and half steps WHWWHW+HH, so it involves an interval of a step and a half between mi and si. or 6 and 7.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
And many a time I've heard a melody player call out the "key" to quickly realise that they think the key is the same thing as the first note!
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Oh, I don't know, Mix. They worked just fine for the pigs.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@Earl Cameron
Yes, I am aware of the melodic minor scale. However, I can't think of a single ITM tune that uses it.
So (for simplicity's sake) I deliberately didn't mention it!
One might also mention the old Klezmer scales (Freygish, Ukrainian Dorian, Hashem Molokh etc) but again, that would be out of context.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
You have a point there, ethical blend. Could this be their session pub?
http://pigsarms.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/pigs-arms-with-signature-12.jpg
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
An excellent ideal world list there. Correct correct correct correct correct etc.
But, as ever, tweaks are required to allow for the most important approach of all ... pragmatism.
Firstly, It's important to note that for your No.3, a voice inside your head should be enough.
And your No.1 has interesting caveats to do with ensemble playing. From a melody player's point of view, it goes like this: If I have a new tune to the company, I'll usually play it first in a set. People can make of it what they will. However, some tunes can sit quite happily with a kind of droning chord for at least the first time through and sometimes it's good fun to play such a tune new to the company inside a set. In this case, I'd expect the strummers to strum away with a chord/root I shout, whether they've heard the tune before or not.
Also, it's very important to realise that If I shout a note/key, that will be the first chord in the tune. It's up to you strummers to suss out where the root it is - or even if there is a root. Stay alert.
Also, I often like to play whole sets in, for example, Gmaj. It's up to you guys to be creative and not to sound repetitive. The tunes won't be repetitive, so rise to it.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
to learn to play guitar other than playing fiddle for 3 years, and having a familiarity with guitar before that. who just plays guitar? John Doyle?
5)Love music theory and often p*ss people off by trying to enlighten them. don't know why people don't like to learn new things
6)Yes, but don't get stuck with patterns that I have to use every time. I learned to accompany Mason's Apron a few weeks back (A tune that I don't play melody to despite how common it is) the fiddler that was teaching me said A Major, though I found that my A ambiguous and my G major chord (with only one G, three Ds, and two Bs) sounded better than attempting to play A major chords (A D and E) I told him, I think it's actually A mixolydian with G# thrown in the melody for color, which is a fair enough argument considering that A mix and A Major are as closely related as two keys can be (one sharp or flat apart)
7)I find that arpeggiated chords sound great for slip jigs, so why would I refrain. I do what sounds the best. I like to find chords that create colorful basslines naturally in the chord changes. It is counterpoint, I'm not playing the melody but playing phrases below the melody that compliment without copying.
8)I don't know
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
1) yes, unless it is one that I have heard but still don't "know." knowing being defined as being able to play the melody on fiddle or banjo. If it is familiar to me I still might listen, because I notice that jumping in too early causes me to make more mistakes, it's a good idea to let the tune solidify in your brain so you don't end up dropping out when you forget a part that's coming, guitarists who drop out make the whole session sound bad
2)If another guitarist is present and playing I usually have a fiddle with or something else with me, and I won't touch my guitar until they stop playing, at which point they see me playing guitar and come over and start playing (J/k that was a particular incidence where a new player showed up and couldn't let me play guitar on my own, so annoying) I'm of the belief that there should only be one guitar player in a session, as well as one banjo, one drum, no more. Guitar and bouzouki together is perfectly acceptable, and as far as standard tuning goes, WHY!? No, I've heard some good guitar players play in standard, but also a fair amount of noobs who really should try something easier like DADGAD.
3)No, but I can play parts of them for sure, and most time those tunes end up being the ones that I eventually learn. I think accompanying a tune brings familiarity with that tune faster than passive listening. Of course I play guitar most often these days at the request of a fiddle player I play with, and he would rather hear the guitar whether or not I know the tune.
4)Yes, that is why I love this music. my interest in ITM came after I bought my first fiddle and stumbled upon a session. I only started playing my guitar once in a while at the session or in my band that plays Irish music after years of fiddle playing, I don't see any other way to learn to play guitar other than playing fiddle for 3 years, and having a familiarity with guitar before that. who just plays guitar? John Doyle?
5)Love music theory and often p*ss people off by trying to enlighten them. don't know why people don't like to learn new things
6)Yes, but don't get stuck with patterns that I have to use every time. I learned to accompany Mason's Apron a few weeks back (A tune that I don't play melody to despite how common it is) the fiddler that was teaching me said A Major, though I found that my A ambiguous and my G major chord (with only one G, three Ds, and two Bs) sounded better than attempting to play A major chords (A D and E) I told him, I think it's actually A mixolydian with G# thrown in the melody for color, which is a fair enough argument considering that A mix and A Major are as closely related as two keys can be (one sharp or flat apart)
7)I find that arpeggiated chords sound great for slip jigs, so why would I refrain. I do what sounds the best. I like to find chords that create colorful basslines naturally in the chord changes. It is counterpoint, I'm not playing the melody but playing phrases below the melody that compliment without copying.
8)I don't know
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yes llig, "a voice inside your head *should* be enough".
But it's my observation (and the opinion of a a lot of other melody players that I've spoken to) that the best session guitarists are those who can play the tunes on "melody" instruments.
Given a raft of melody players and a well-known tune, if the guitarist is "out" it may not be too noticeable.
However, It's nice sometimes to strike up with a new tune at a session. By "new", I of course mean a tune not normally played at the session is question. The melody players are probably feeling their way through the tune - maybe missing out a few notes here and there - nothing clashing.
But if a guitarist jumps straight in full blast from bar 1 without having the faintest clue about the tune, it can be very jarring on the ears ...
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Earl - I would have to agree with the teacher that you mention - Mason's Apron (as normally played) is A-Major - not A-Mix
Regarding your suggested A-Major chords(A, D &E), there is scope in a few places in that tune to sub a Bm for a D, and an E7 for an E
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
If you can sing the tune there is no reason you should also have to play it on a melody instrument. Having said that, I do enjoy hearing guitarists playing some of the melody, now & again.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix - can't say the checklist approach suits me well. There's a lot assumed and a lot left out of your list, I think someone could answer "yes" to all of those questions and still be a guitarist I didn't want around, and aside from (4) (which I don't really understand what you mean by it) all of your rules are broken by good guitarists.
I don't believe there's a simple regular approach to "good guitar playing" because what is expected varies from place to place and from player to player. The only common threads I can find are
a) listen to the tunes as they're being played now (ie, don't play "book changes" unless they happen to suit what's being played at the moment)
b) stay behind the tunes (if anyone notices the guitar, you're likely doing something wrong)
c) understand the rhythm (if you can't feel where the one is, and where the anticipation is, and where everything else in the tune is, you need to stop playing, now) (It might be that you don't understand the tune because of the other players' accenting beats oddly, or otherwise fooling with the tune. This doesn't matter, stop now)
A guitarist that does all of these things and obeys a single negative prescription might be very good, and still despised as a worthless accompanist two towns over, due to stylistic issues, such as playing fully-spelled out chords changing on the bar when the local preference is for moving partial chord accompaniment.
(The negative prescription, of course is
d) never play wrong notes without resolving them well )
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Are you being patronising or amusing? Should I be p*ssed off or entertained? You play banjo, mandolin, guitar, a bit of fiddle as I do so perhaps you are being provocative based on your own experiences?
I'm sorry but I do get a bit irritated by the number of posts that assume guitar players don't know their a**se from their elbow! I know lots of melody players who busk their way through tune after tune and are pretty awful but we show patience and forgive and encourage them.
Anyway I play a similar range of instruments as yourself starting with guitar in my teens then GDAE instruments for 25yrs+ before returning to guitar and could answer yes to any of your questions I cared to.
I suppose if your experience is to have sessions swamped by a number of inadequate players on any particular instrument you would have a jaundiced view. Shame about that!
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Rob
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I agree with most of what Mix, Random, Michael, and a few others have said. I just want to add that I expect an experienced and competent guitarist to figure out how to play along with tunes they might not have necessarily heard before. If someone who I know is good doesn't play along with me, I tend to assume I'm doing something wrong.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Cheers, Rob. Those are good questions. At question #8, & what follows, it does seem patronising; though I doubt Mix O'Lydian intended that.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Emily, I think you're on to something with that expectation. There are tunes an accompanist can pick up on the fly, and ones they can't. A big part of the job is to be able to tell the difference, for tunes you haven't heard, in real time.
This is maybe one (one more) reason why knowing lots of tunes is helpful, even if knowing how to play a particular tune is not always helpful for accompanying that particular tune.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
yes, yes, no, yes, yes, yes, no, no.
Unfortunately, I just played at the wake of the one other accompanist who I could play alongside without ever having to worry about clashing chords, so mostly I solve the 'clashing accompanist' issue by putting down the guitar when someone else picks one up.
And while I know a significant percentage of the tunes I accompany, I am far from knowing them all. It is, however, possible to recognize a tune, and be very comfortable with accompanying it, without being able to play its melody yourself.
All in all, Mix, you have produced a pretty good list of symptoms that produce a diagnosis of "good accompaniment."
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yeah, I think as an accompanist the key thing is knowing the tuneS. The vast majority of them are predictable enough someone well versed in the music that they can and do figure them out on the fly. There are some tunes which throw accompanists who don't know them (like this one: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3354) and I expect, when I play it, the accompanist who doesn't know it to faff about and maybe bail on playing along with it.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
And I agree with llig that the most useful hint another player can give me is to call out the first chord, not the key or mode or whatever. Although, if it is a new one, don't think I didn't hear you when it is an unfamiliar tune, and I wait for one time through to join in!
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I'm crap at calling out keys. Apologies to any accompanist who will ever play with me. It's hard shouting "E minor" and at the same time not trainwrecking the phrase of the tune you're playing.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Thanks, Al, for giving the sure- fire way of solving clashing accompanist dilemna.
About this question/point :"5) Do you know that a tune which doesn’t use a major scale is not simply “minor”, but is likely to use one the modal scales (e,g. Natural Minor, Dorian, Mixolydian etc)?"
Fair play, though I can think of at least 2 backers who can sing a tune & suss out chords without ever thinking about modes.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
~ which chords are suited to the common modal-scale keys?
guess my theory is not so hot.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"b) stay behind the tunes (if anyone notices the guitar, you're likely doing something wrong)" Jon Kiparsky
I'm so not interested in people playing "behind" the tunes. It's worse that pointless, it's distracting. I like to play with people. There are no leaders. The best of this music is ensemble equality. Round a table, shoulder to shoulder. Everybody listening hard and simultaneously being both reactive and proactive. And if anyone doesn't feel that that's where they are in the ensemble, they should either make their utmost effort to play play so quietly no one can hear them, or shut up.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
The ones that sound right, of course.
(sorry)
Take D major:
D E F# G A B C# D
Build the triads:
D F# A
E G B
F# A C#
G B D
A C# E
B D F#
C# E G
For a mode of D, in theory, these chords should work.
Warning: relying on this is likely to get you into trouble. Tunes don't always know that they're supposed to follow these rules.
My first experiments in guitar accompaniment were based on knowing this sort of thing - disaster.
"But this should be right" "It isn't, please stop" "<Sputter sputter>"
I learned, eventually. These rules are helpful to know, but never think about them while you're playing.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
(cross post - the above was in reply at Random's post, above)
Michael - What I meant to say is that the guitar should not obscure the tune, it should be a part of it. You could say the same for any other instrument, really - if you're hearing "concertina plus session" the concertina needs to step back a little. If you're hearing one fiddle above everything else, that fiddler is probably not listening as much as they should. Same goes for the guitar, only more so. The guitar should be heard, but only as part of the whole. Certainly, it should not stand out from the whole.
(why "more so"? Because tunes without guitar are tunes. Guitar without tunes is - well, guitar. The guitar has to be extra careful here, because they can screw things up more than, say, the tin whistle can)
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"I'm crap at calling out keys. Apologies to any accompanist who will ever play with me. It's hard shouting "E minor" and at the same time not trainwrecking the phrase of the tune you're playing."
Another reason the snippet system is nice if you have an idea what tunes you plan to string together.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Snip it in the bud ~ That would be question/point of order #9
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yes Jon, I agree with you now. Everything should be part of the tune, not behind it.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I admit...... The other week I played a snippet of a tune to someone who reads this board.
And he pointed out that I do in fact play snippets.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
10) Do you banter snippiteers?
~ maybe
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
(and others!)
For anyone who missed the parallel discussion(s) in previous times, here's one ...
Re: "It's in G"
Posted on September 14th 2005 by Jode
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/7729/comments#comment166081
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
lol @ playing or not playing snippets
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Today at a session with two other fiddlers I played a handful of tunes on guitar, some of which I play on fiddle, because I actually enjoy playing guitar parts that I have worked out.
When another fiddle player (who is also a guitarist) launches into a string of jigs I haven't learned yet (but I've heard him play multiple times) it sounds good to follow with chords, but maybe that's due to my familiarity with the player and his tunes, despite not playing the melody.
I managed to stop playing at just the right time for each tune to hear the opening phrase of the next, and I waited as long as I needed to and went into mostly the right key and chords every time and found the right voicings to change up the feel of the accompaniment appropriately, I think everyone was enjoying it, although it gave the other fiddler a harder time trying to play along to some, it was because he didn't necessarily know them. Dusty windowsills is possibly an example of a tune I will never play melody to if I have a guitar around and somebody else is playing it, it is such a fun tune to accompany, with it's chordal simplicity and rhythmic complexity
it's good to think and talk about what is appropriate, because often times nobody really knows what is bad until somebody is doing it and you can't put together the words to name the musical abomination.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"lol @ playing or not playing snippets"
lol alright. If you can't play 2 bars and say "do you know this one?" - that really is taking things a bit far.
Do you know such and such? - I'm not good with names how does it go? - No, sorry, snippets are frowned upon at proper sessions. lol
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
.......while at the same time making the important distinction between snippets and noodling.....
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Snippets and noodles and performance, oh my!
It is amazing the snares that lurk just off of the mustard yellow brick road!
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Reading the above responses, it's clear to me that some have fully understood the reasoning behind of my "check-list" of questions",
Yet some have not, which I find a little worrying.
And a few (notably llig) have understood them well enough, but suggested that they are too idealist - which is probably true.
Committing a melody to memory is not especially difficult - once you got it in your head, it's pretty much there for life. OK, if it's a tune that you haven't played for years you may need a little prompting from another musician playing a couple of bars, for it to come flooding back. Committing a sequence of chords to memory is a lot harder.
As for playing/accompanying a tune that you never heard before, my observation is that most melody players will sit out at least for the first time through before attempting to join in. Not so most guitarists - and the result can often be cacophonic.
And it's especially annopying if it's one of those tunes that changes key/mode between the "A" part and the "B" part. The issue is not with guitarists for ITM, but guitarists playing in sessions.
What is surprising is that many melody players don't even realise when the guitar is out. Once (during a D-Major set) I noticed that the guitar was "out", and asked him afterwards what key he thought we had been playing in. Reply: "G-Major" And yet, no-one else had noticed!
The issue doesn't arise with guitarists in performance bands (where presumably everything is rehearsed) or in ceilidh bands where music with annotated chords can be provided if necessary.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Crickey, you're right, run away..... don't mention the p word
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
x post
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I like soy sauce in my noodles, but prefer snippets in my sessions...
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by On Sabbatical
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
All true Mix, though melody players need to remember all the notes maybe years down the line whereas guitarists only need to remember the shape of the tune - which is a LOT easier. However the guitarist does have a tricky job making each tune different and interesting from a backing point of view. But that should not be confused with basically learning the rough shape of a tune.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
This is a fabulously suitable thread for cross posts.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
bogman - don't you mean cross posters
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by On Sabbatical
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
well it certainly has that potential.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yip - these guitar threads usually end up coming off the rails.... (hopefully with no serious injuries!). I think I'll just stand back and watch from the touchline for now...
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by On Sabbatical
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Ron P, you may not have seen this bit on a similar thread, it's very touching ~
Re: "It's in G"
That's a very interesting and insightful observation, Jack.
Posted on September 14th 2005 by Dow
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I get your drift bogman, but only up to a point.
What exactly do you mean by: "However the guitarist does have a tricky job making each tune different and interesting from a backing point of view"
That could involve a whole load of things - some of which might be in keeping with the tradition, whereas other things might not be.
Whether melody playing is right or wrong is objective. For example, if you consistently played C# instead of Cnat through three repeats of a G-Major tune, others would notice. They might well glare at you when you playing, or maybe say something to you afterwards.
Chord selection is subjective. There's probably a choice of several at any given point of a tune, none of which are dischordant.
But just because they are not dischordant doesn't mean that they are all necessarily in keeping with the tradition.
You could (for example) substitute an A9 for every AMaj chord in a tune to make the backing "more interesting". I would hear(and not like it!) but most people wouldn't even notice.
I've observed that melody players wil often comment on how good (or bad) a session was without actually realising that their perception of it being good or bad was all down to the guitarist in question.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"I've observed that melody players will often comment on how good (or bad) a session was without actually realising that their perception of it being good or bad was all down to the guitarist in question."
Getting a bit above yourself there I think. I've never ever seen that. Never. The closest I've ever come to that is tune players remarking how pleasant a session was without a strummer, for a change.
Come on now, it's preposterous. You really think that if you overhear some tunes player saying that they "enjoyed the tunes tonight", that they were deluded into thinking there was good tunes played well,but the reality was that it was merely good strumming. Ha.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
AlBrown writes: "It is amazing the snares that lurk just off of the mustard yellow brick road!"
Nice try at a dig, Al, but my mention of the snippet concept was perfectly relevant to what TheSilverSpear said.
~~~
bogman writes: "Do you know such and such? - I'm not good with names how does it go? - No, sorry, snippets are frowned upon at proper sessions. lol"
What I find interesting is how people reject the concept outright even though I see it used a lot by Irish visitors and when I visit Ireland. When we have Irish visitors at our local and they use snippets to identify tunes, everyone is too star-struck perhaps to notice they are using it and go along with no protest. When it's back to just the locals, the same people who cooperated willingly with our guests go back to business as usual and instruct me on how improper it is, or become intentionally obtuse. lol
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
The snippet thing is lovely and polite. It's inclusive and charming. And those who a charmed by openness to be included welcome it. And so they should. Hup for the lovely Oirish.
But when the "Irish visitors" get told to feck off with their charming politeness and just get the feck on with it, every single one I've met are more than glad to be done with it.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I haven't noticed it as any "let's be all polite and formal" but rather more like "do you know this one?" and they will add "how about this one" and you know they intend to play it after. They might add a third too... but it's not seen as 'just being polite.' Mind you they don't try to stop or discourage anyone from not using snippets. I would agree that people who try to stop or discourage listening to and accepting snippets are being impolite though.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I agree that people who try to stop or discourage listening to and accepting snippets are being impolite. There's something very satisfying in having done with politeness when you meet people. And diddley music is a great thing for quickly getting rid of politeness among strangers. Hup diddley music
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I was in the anti snippet crowd with bogman in the last thread about it until I was caught red-handed playing a snippet. The funny part was that I had probably played thousands of snippets before but never even thought about it, hence my position in that thread that they could be annoying. If someone does it all the time, it is, but everything in moderation as they say.
I then thought about why I played the snippet. Basically I wanted to find out if the recipient of my snippet, the fiddler sitting next to me, knew the tune in question. I didn't want to play the tune solo and a lot of people don't know tune names. Maybe your advice would be to suck it up and risk playing the tune solo anyway, but at that moment I didn't feel like playing a tune no one else knew. Better to play a snippet and find out if the people around me know the tune. The fiddler in any case didn't recognize my snippet, so I played something else he did know.
Does that make the Oran Mor less of a "real session?" I don't know......
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Most everyone has used snippets at some time or another, ie: "You know the one I mean, it goes...." But I have never seen any place where they do it as a matter of routine before each set. And I have never seen a place where it is never done at all, or where someone complains about it. So I always get amused how many people line up and take sides, pro and anti snippets. And as a result, just can't take the debate too seriously...
Shouldn't we get back to guitarist bashing here?
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
TheSilverSpear writes: "I then thought about why I played the snippet. Basically I wanted to find out if the recipient of my snippet, the fiddler sitting next to me, knew the tune in question. I didn't want to play the tune solo and a lot of people don't know tune names. Maybe your advice would be to suck it up and risk playing the tune solo anyway, but at that moment I didn't feel like playing a tune no one else knew. Better to play a snippet and find out if the people around me know the tune. The fiddler in any case didn't recognize my snippet, so I played something else he did know."
Exactly!
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Grand discussion this. 'Tis what the board's all about.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by jtrout
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Al writes: "And as a result, just can't take the debate too seriously... Shouldn't we get back to guitarist bashing here?"
lol... Al... you helped set fire to the snippet concept on this thread.
Anyway, my only point in bringing it up is because of how useful it is in situations like what SS describes. When I'm at sessions only half the tunes start with snippets unless someone like Joe Burke is guest hosting the session, and then every set starts with snippets. Since I find a lot of usefulness in it, the one of two times during the night when I'm asked to start tunes I will usually use it. If I'm the host the frequency increases dramatically, but I don't insist others abide by the practice when they start tunes. Occasionally I'll abandon it all together for a string of tunes too... it's all good.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"To clarify what I mean my "melodic" music. Up until the 18th century all western music was "melodic" in nature i.e. only suited to be played unaccompanied or with some drone notes or other simple harmony. When this was realised, writing music using most of the old modal scales went out of fashion. The major scale remained (but became more prominent). Some of the semitone intervals of the then existing melodic minor scale were changed, forming the harmonic minor scale."
Loved your list Mix, but OUCH.
1) Western music was on the way to various kinds of polyphony by the 14th century.
2) Modal music become less important in European art music by the mid 17th century and our "normal" major and minor scales become the common ones.
3) Melodic and Harmonic minors are outgrowths of the needs of melodies and harmonies, but one did not, I'm quite sure, inspire the other.
This is off topic and let's not wander off into this stuff. The discussion here is much too interesting.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by cboody
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
why do people assume theory is beyond guitarist??
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by geoffmc
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I like to play guitar, I don't get the chance so much now as for various reasons I lack a regular tune where I enjoy it and so prefer to plonk away on a different type of axe.
Last good tune I had playing guitar was with a mandolin player, who I find inspirational and encouraging to play with, the kind of player who's constantly egging you on taking the music to unexpected places and leading you into uncharted waters, who's enthusiasm infects those around him. So with that type of tune in mind, the kind that I enjoy, here's my answer to the list;
1) No, and you be considered a twit for breaking the spell in the situations I enjoy playing (not so if you occasionally momentarily drop the ball, it's only music after all).
2) N/A
3) No and I actually find it a disadvantage as you fool yourself into thinking you know it instead of listening to how it's actually being presented by someone else which usually demands a slightly different treatment. So, in the head, yes and not at all.
4) Are you having a laugh?
5) See 4)
6) I've got these things stuck to the side of my head that are handy for that, you'll find them just above the bolts.
7) Depends on; the style, whats happening or just happened in the here & now as you've got to keep it interesting, it your duty.
8) No
I find myself agreeing with llig's first post as amongst my tune playing pals thats generally whats expected of the strummer. Keeping things interesting during mega scots sets in the ball park of A or backing the D multitude in ITM can be a challenge (and boring sometimes), especially if the backer thinks in blocks and or formula, as you can all to quickly run out of ideas.
Only a fool would consider themselves a "very good player" in any kind of context on guitar, being "big amongst sheep" is nothing to brag about, especially when there are a few true monsters out there who are truly very good and in every bodies opinion. There's often no accounting for taste in most peoples summing of the "very good" equation, on any instrument, it's horses for courses IMO.
My girlfriend has very exact expectations of what a strummer should be strumming for the most part, lol, an issue on which we often disagree to the point that I don't often enjoy playing with her if I'm backing, despite her being one of the better players I'm lucky enough to get a tune with on occasion. The mandolin player, that I mentioned at the beginning of this rant, his attitude is; what do you make of this....... and that? Rather than; I expect to hear that! I prefer the former.
I play for the sake of playing coz in the right circumstances I enjoy it. If my guitar playing isn't to your taste, don't ask me out for a tune, thats my attitude. Funnily enough, the people I do enjoy playing with are the ones who do ask me out to play, ain't that weird.........
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@cboody - apologies for the OUCH.
OK, maybe I made a bit of a generalisation regarding that century. And it also rather depends on which types of music you would be talking about. But I would still maintain that polyphonic music didn't become generally mainstream until the 18th century. The process even continued into the 19th century - e.g. with the Victorians getting rid of the old hymns and writing new ones.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@cboody - your point is totally right. Just a reinforcement, if I may. Precursors of polyphony were established by the start of the 12th century, and real polyphonic and contrapuntal writing was well established by the end of the 13th century. (I often suspect that, in secular music, harmony - a different thing from polyphony per se - was always there. What were all those guitar thingies, and lutes and stuff for?)
Tonal music arose out of ideas which were around at the end of the 15th century - although admittedly didn't get properly going for a bit. 1600 is sometimes taken as the dividing line. But, if you look at Machaut's music (14th century), it's hard at times to shoehorn it into properly modal music, and the cadences certainly seem to modern ears like something at least halfway towards tonal music.
I know you said don't wander off into this stuff ... sorry ... I'll shut up now ...
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
No, you;re a few centuries out, Mix. Note that the 14th century polyphony was not only highly complex, being as this article says, simplified in the 15th century as a reaction against that complexity, but also highly chromatic.
But to say that polyphony didn't become mainstream until the 18th century ignores all Renaissance music (polyphonic) and most of the Baroque.
Link to the article I referred to (only Wiki, i'm afraid, but it gives the gist):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_music
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@llig - I think that you have misunderstood me.
My observation was based on two consectutive sessions at the same pub. Pretty much the same bunch of melody players on both occasions - but a different guitarist. One session was a whole lot better than the other - mainly because it included a guitarist who really knew what he was doing.
I'm sure that you would agree that It's perfectly possible to have a good session without a guitar - you've said as much in other posts to this board.
Indeed, far better to have no guitarist at all than to have one who spoils it for the melody players ...
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@ethical blend - OK, Wiki has it all!
But the issue here is just one of semantics
The point that I was trying to make (albeit unsuccessfully) was that the virtual complete takeover of polyphonic music didn't happen until the 18th Century.
Quite a lot of traditional (melodic) music played today has been resurrected from fiddler's fake books and other manuscripts with 18th century dates.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix, sorry, went to bed there...
>What exactly do you mean by: "However the guitarist does have a tricky job making each tune different and interesting from a backing point of view"<
Well, that doesn't have to be looked into any deeper than that. I mean really what you've said above. Though I prefer rhythmic variety and taking out rather than adding inflections as variety. As far as the melody players perception of what has made a good session - certainly round here they are more than aware that it's the tunes, interaction and energy that are the main thing. I have to say there has never been a session here, or any I can think of that has been 'made' by the guitarist. And that is not a criticism - I just think a bad guitar can ruin a session but a good one can is governed by the strength of the tune players. The best accompanying guitarist in the world can not make the tune playing any better and cannot make a session simply by good accompaniment.
Silver Spear, I think you have picked me up wrong. I am most definitely not in an "anti -snippet" crowd. I think playing snippets before lots of sets would be a bit weird and I don't ever remember a session where that happened. But sometimes with visitors at a session the odd snippet is fine. Usually only for the first tune in a set though. It would almost never happen at our session unless there were non regulars there - someone would just start some tunes - most of us make a conscious effort to learn the tunes that others play that we don't know.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by bogman
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix, just missed your second last post there. Sounds there like one competent guitarist and one dodgy one. If the tune players don't recognize that then it would say more about these particular players than melody players in general.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by bogman
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Well, Mix, your original point was that *harmony* didn't come in until the 18th century. Actually, harmony has always been there. Polyphony? Depends what you mean by "complete takeover". Firstly, that's not what you said before. Secondly, if you mean to the extent that it currently is, then the answer is the same - by the end of the 13th century. There's still "purely melodic" music, now just as there was then. And there was just as much polyphony then as now - probably more.
That's if you accept that you can have "purely melodic" music in any case ...
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Don't get harmony and polyphony mixed up.
Single line music is harmonic. It is based around harmonic intervals
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I made the distinction between the two.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Going off on a tangent here, I know (we were talking about tunes, not songs) but does anyone feel that this type of song would be "improved" with a guitar backing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPpfQpata00
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
bogman writes: "But sometimes with visitors at a session the odd snippet is fine. Usually only for the first tune in a set though. It would almost never happen at our session unless there were non regulars there"
Funny, I've been to many sessions around Ireland were snippets are the rule more then the exception. These were usually sessions with top drawer players as well and they happened in places where I was renting a house for a week to a month and attending the sessions regularly. But as I said before; this is how I first noticed the whole snippet thing and then I would recognize it being used elsewhere in varying degrees. One thing I never saw in Ireland was anyone protesting it or discouraging it the way I see happening in this forum and sometimes at my local sessions.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
One thing that strummers often do that I'd rather they didn't, is to make use of what they'd describe as the "implied harmony" of a tune.
There's a school of thought that reckons the applied harmony is some sort of pure objective physics. It's not. It's completely cultural. And the specific applied harmonies that strummers often bring to the tunes is not from the culture the tunes are from.
An example is the desire to ground every tune with a root. This often manifests itself by the desire to resolve an open fourth down to the maj third. (it's difficult to talk about it because I have to use the language based on roots, ie, fourths and thirds, but you should get my drift.)
I've often heard it said that strummers should take note of the modes of tunes. This is all very well, but more important than this bland set of categorisations should be a clear knowledge of what notes are NOT in the tune. Don't just hear a root, recognise a mode, and jump in with sets of chords that you have pre-assembled to fit.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I know you made the distinction ethical, I was backing you up.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Ah right, sorry. Misunderstood.
And thanks.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
PB, that's fair enough, I never noticed it in Ireland but not been at many sessions there, I was referring to my own experiences which are mostly here in Scotland.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by bogman
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
There's another school of guitar playing in sessions which sort of goes like this:
* Tune guitar to DADGAD
* Play chords with lots of ninths and not many thirds
* Avoid clearly recognisable straight chords at any cost
This does sort of preserve the ambiguity of (a lot of) the tunes. But the downside is that it muddies the waters, so to speak. The guitar can end up either too prominent, or providing a sort of soft focus mush into which the tunes sink.
Does anyone know what I'm talking about here?
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I go to sessions in Ireland a lot. The snippet thing happens sometimes. Occasionally. But not all that much, and so what, in any case? It's OK - it's not the worst sin, but it's not usually necessary.
The only time I've seen it happen much is when the "session" is, in reality, a gig, and the snippet thing happens between the paid "seeds".
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
llig: " .... a clear knowledge of what notes are NOT in the tune.
- wise words!
... although recognising root and mode are also important ...
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Ethical Blend "Does anyone know what I'm talking about here?"
Yes. To which I would add that acceptable backing for an unknown tune would be more likely to be achieved using DADGAD than standard tuning.
But a really good guitarist could achieve it using standard tuning - I know one or two who can. No idea how they manage it, though!
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
The sessions I saw and took part in had paid hosts or anchors, but were great sessions nonetheless regardless of the ample use of snippets. I did notice when I was in Ennis one year during the month that the trad fest came and went, that the snippets were used less and less during the fest week because the sessions increased in size with mostly participants from around Europe and the US as well as from around Ireland. But when the trad fest was over and everyone went home again things got back to normal and the use of snippets returned to it's usual frequency.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yes, recognising roots can be important, But always be aware that there may not be one. What I'm complaining off is strummers forcing harmony on to tunes, grounding them when they don't want to be. A strong ambiguous tune can handle some ninths and sixths and certainly benefits from fewer thirds. But I prefer the ambiguity of fourths, as they straddle that lovely coexistence of being also a fifth below.
But I'm not knocking major thirds. Bring em on in bucket loads for all those relentlessly jolly tunes I also love so much.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
All right, fair enough. I know some individuals who use snippets all the time and others who hardly use them at all. I don't think it's an Irish thing, a Scottish thing, an American thing, or really anything you can ascribe to the session culture of a particular geographical area; I think some people do it, some do it a lot, and others don't.
No one's bothered with it. Although if you're a frequent offender, there's a chance you might get slagged. Someone (me, frequently, at the Oran Mor. hah!) might shout across the table, "Are you playing a tune or just noodling around?"
One thing Mix doesn't have in his list but I think is really bloody important.... rhythm. I like guitarists who provide a really solid rhythm (the same one you set. No speeding up). I've encountered tons of accompanists who play perfectly nice chords but the strumming does not have any rhythmic power. A really good one can even help an uncertain melody player with their timing. I made some big leaps and bounds in my playing last year when I was playing with this guitarist who had an amazing sense of timing and rhythm. I also expect that even when I f*ck up a tune, the guitarist will keep the rhythm train going so I can quickly recover and hop back on. I remember playing tunes with a guitarist, who was a nice player, but I stumbled over a phrase of a tune and he backed off playing. I then flailed about quite a lot, in a sort of panic. Eventually found the tune but never quite in the same groove as I started it. I said to the guitarist that even if I cock up the rhythm, it's much better for him to keep going anyway so I can find the groove again. He said, "Well, you're the melody player. It's your job to keep the rhythm going." Which I agreed is completely true, but I'm not an amazing enough player to not cock things up on occasion, so I like an accompanist who can keep me right when necessary.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Your quite right, Silver Spear. My list should have included a question or two about rhythmn.
I'm aware that there are sometimes problems concerning guitars and rhythm from other posts to this board, though I've never encountered this myself (except perhaps the "smoothing out" of the melody players' syncopation when backing polkas).
That's probably why I omitted to include it. And certainly, if a guitarist starts to speed up, its very difficult for the melody musicians to counter it.
Whilst it might sometimes be handy to to have a guitarist keep the rhythm going if you stumble over a tune, I don't think that you can rely upon it, as it's the guitarist who should be following what the melody players are doing - not the other way around ...
I good question to ask oneself before starting a tune:
"If nobody joins in, could I play it once through without faltering?"
If the answer is "no", it's probably best not to start it ....
... but of course, it's not a perfect world ...
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"Acceptable backing for an unknown tune would be more likely to be achieved using DADGAD than standard tuning."
Is that because of the tendency to use ambiguous chord voicings (is that a Gsus2 or a Dsus4 or an A7sus4)? Sounds a bit like "soft focus mush".
"More important ...should be a clear knowledge of what notes are NOT in the tune."
Does that mean you shouldn't use notes that are not in the tune in any of your accompanying chords? What happens if the tune only has two notes? Then, technically speaking, you can't use any chords to accompany the tune.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"soft focus mush" - you're probably right . When I said "acceptable", I didn't mean "ideal"
??? A tune with only two notes? Which tune is that ...
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I have to confess I tend to steer clear of the two note tunes now. I prefer the more adventurous three note tunes instead!
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
But more seriously if a tune is pentatonic - say D major pentatonic, for the sake of argument - does that mean you wouldn't use any G or C# notes in your accompanying chords?
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
That seems a good set of criteria, Mix, if not quite all encompassing. But there are couple of
3) Can you play the melodies of all the tunes that you accompany on a “standard” session melody instrument?
7) Do you refrain from playing arpeggio chords and bass runs, except perhaps for waltzes?
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Oops!. What happened there?: Pressed something I shouldn't have.
That seems a good set of criteria, Mix, if not quite all encompassing. But there are couple of questions I'd question:
3) Can you play the melodies of all the tunes that you accompany on a “standard” session melody instrument?
What's wrong with playing the melodies on guitar (I assume "standard" excludes guitar)
7) Do you refrain from playing arpeggio chords and bass runs, except perhaps for waltzes?
I can't see why arpeggios would be inherently inappropriate. Strumming may be the easiest way to emulate the rhythms of the tunes, but a bit of judicious arpeggiation would seem a good way to break the monotony.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by bass runs. If you're talking about jazz-style walking bass, or funky bass grooves then, yes, I can see it would be hard to use them sympathetically to the tunes. But the movement of bass notes is very important in accompanying traditional tunes; a coherent progression of bass notes can make difference between propelling the tune forward and merely filling out the sound.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
...100.
Is this a record on the topic...?
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by EnDaC
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
No.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Not any more
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Another record-breaking post...
Knowing what notes are not in the tune is one thing. Knowing what notes can't be in the tune is another. Blarney Pilgrim, for example, doesn't have an F or an F# in its simplest version. But if you were to put in one of those notes, it would almost certainly be an F#, not an F natural. And if you were (just supposin') to put a D chord in there somewhere (on some wild whim), a Dm would be more, um, interesting - not to say wrong - than than a D major.
Likewise, Sporting Paddy usually doesn't have a C or a C#, but I suspect that someone putting in one of those notes would reach for the Cnat rather than the C#, and your guitar playing should reflect that - A mix would be a strange choice on that tune.
You have to be able to hear the notes that aren't in the tune, and figure out which ones you can use in the accompaniment.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@DonaldK
If we are talking ITM, I don't know of any pentatonic tunes.
I'm not sure what you mean by "D Major Pentatonic". There are several pentatonic scales possible, with a tonic of D.
But (hopefully) to clarify - whatever the key or mode - I don't think that you should be playing any chord which includes a note that does not occur in the melody.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
DonaldK, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If a tune in D has neither a Cnat or a Csharp, then yes, when strumming, you shouldn't play either note.
The inclusion of a major of minor 7th in a tune are two very distinct flavours and very important to those tunes that have them. And a lack of either is also very important. It's the ambiguousness that makes it. So when your pentatonic D tune moves its centre to A for a bar or two you must resist playing either an Amaj triad or an Amin triad ... you must leave out the third. If you put the third in you are doing exactly what I warn against, you are shoehorning a harmony onto the tune that is not there.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8191/comments#comment175368
Also, The Roaring Barmaid (didn;t see whether they mentioned that one). There's quite a few more ...
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@CreadurMawnOrganig - no doubt there are guitarists around capable of of playing all the session standards on a standard-tuned guitar - I just haven't met one yet!
And (to my ear anyway) if you are going to have a guitar playing melody at a session, I would prefer it to be a tenor guitar.
And - to clarify - when I said bass runs - I did indeed mean the "walking bass to which you referred.
If you listen to old ITM recordings from the 30's, there is quite often a piano player in with the musicians, doing a kind of "walking bass". Authentic for the period it may be, and (speaking personally) I don't care for it
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/13991/comments#comment288487
The above (ie the discussion linked to) being seemingly a slightly bad-tempered argument, but it does have a few suggestions from Mr Dow there ...
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@llig: "shoehorning a harmony onto the tune that is not there".
Exactly so. But this kind of "shoehorning" is very common ..
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@ Jon Kiparsky - the modes of tunes that you mentioned are debatable, and there's been loads of debate about them before on this board.
But I don't see that it makes any difference to llig's axiom of not playing any chord which incudes a note that does not occur in the tune .
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Did you see those pentatonic tunes, btw, Mix?
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yes, this kind of "shoehorning" is indeed very common. The feckers.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
There's a lot you can do with notes that form the melody when it comes to building chords, whether adding to the bottom or the top in fact it's all you need. Especially on those tunes which use a couple of modes/scales it's actually quite expansive.
You don't need all the notes all the time (sage advice from Alex the Devil Worshiper) What you do need though is a good right hand (or left if your a south paw).
Just because a tune only uses the D pentatonic notes from a D major scale doesn't necessarily exclude the 4th and 7th of that major scale as it could be questionable whether the melody just used those 5 notes or was in fact a pentatonic, playing chords with those notes would soon tell you, if your listening. Thats the stuff of mega threads though......... A soul could lose ones mind.
llig " And a lack of either is also very important. It's the ambiguousness that makes it. So when your pentatonic D tune moves its centre to A for a bar or two you must resist playing either an Amaj triad or an Amin triad ... you must leave out the third. If you put the third in you are doing exactly what I warn against, you are shoehorning a harmony onto the tune that is not there"
Take a tune like Beare island reel, first part; the shift from Maj to min 3rd is what really makes people buy you a pint so in that sense it's important and theres' no room for ambiguity in that part of the tune. In the rest of the first part & the 2nd you could leave out the third in places if you wanted to IMVHOTI.
Mix, you need to get out more often. Standard rocks......
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Ah, the language these days. Tsk! Tsk!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCJK_yDAeOM
[Sorry about the ad]
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
That was for Llig
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
thanks, brilliant
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix - I guess I don't see much sense in that rule. How many G tunes actually feature a "c" in the melody? Surprisingly few of them. Plenty of them have big, obvious C chords in them somewhere, though. Donnybrook Fair comes to mind, just as an example.
The rule also fails to rule out notes that appear in the tune, but are wrong in this particular part (c nat in the first part of Nine Points of Roguery, for example, or Fnat in the first part of Chief O'Neill's).
But the real problem is that this rule assumes the guitarist has a list of "the notes in this tune" in their head, which has not got anything to do with the way we learn tunes or represent them in our heads. In the standard term of art, this rule has no "psychological reality". It doesn't actually represent anything that's going on in the player's head when they play, any more than the dots and lines on the page do.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Hang on ... where's the "big, obvious C chord" in Donnybrook Fair then?
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"Mix - I guess I don't see much sense in that rule. How many G tunes actually feature a "c" in the melody? Surprisingly few of them."
Huh?
Lots of pipey G tunes frequently make unashamed use of the Cnat. They not only have Cnats, but they're one of the more emphatic notes in the tune.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
How many G tunes actually feature a "c" in the melody? All the best ones
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Well, the third and fourth parts of the Jig of Slurs don't have any Cs in them, for an obvious reason. But I would not take that to mean I wasn't allowed to play a C chord.
And, llig, if we are expected to accompany tunes we don't know how are we supposed to Know what notes are not in the tune until the tune has been played at least once?
Mix, the major pentatonic scale is generally taken to be 1, 2 , 3, 5 & 6 of the Ionian mode. The minor pentatonic is the 1, 3, 4, 5 & 7 of the Aeolian.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I thought the Jig of Slugs was in Dmaj. Why would it have Cnats?
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Of course I'm not talking about pentatonics specific to ITM or ATM or whatever. I'm well aware that in ITM a common "minor" pentonic is 1, 2, 4, 5 & 7.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
'Cos the last two sections are sort of in G. But I ignore that tune, in any case. On taste grounds.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
... to TSS ...
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
The first and second parts of the Slig of Jugs are in D, the third and fourth are in G, I think you will find.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Haha. There is that.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Beat me to it. I play it on taste grounds.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Er ... hello ...?
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Ah, right. It's all coming too thick and fast. As ... no, I won;t.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I play it when someone else starts it. There are worse tunes.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Hi-Yo Silver Spear!
Let me consider a few G-Maj tunes ....
... all very well-known:
Father Kelly's (Reel)
Blackthorn Stick (Jig)
Navvy on the Line (Hornpipe)
Begley's (Polka)
Well they all contain a "C", don't they?
Sure, there are tunes where one note of the scale does not occur in the tunes. You then have to listen to the tune in its entirety and decide whether it's hex or whether its major that doesnt happen to incude a particular note anywhere in it. Even when theory fails, you ear should tell you.
BTW Donnybrook Fair is G-Major in the first part, but modulates to E Natural Minor in the second part...
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Spoken as a true guitarist
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Well, yes. That's what I said. A lot of Gmaj tunes have Cs.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@DonaldK
Thanks for clarifying the definition of "major pentatonic scale"
- but which ITM tunes use it?
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@Silver Spear. Hi-yo again!
You said:
"Lots of pipey G tunes frequently make unashamed use of the Cnat"
Some examples would be useful!
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix,
Try The Britches full of Stitches. Notes are D - E - F# - A - B = D major pentatonic.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
DonaldK "Try The Britches full of Stitches. Notes are D - E - F# - A - B = D major pentatonic"
I don't know the tune but if an Em or F#m fitted comfortably in with the accompaniment then chances are it's just the major scale minus the 4th and 7th, rather than an actual pentatonic. Daft I know but thats how I'd view it. In the trad game we've a tendency to over complicate things.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Tell me where this makes sense then? A tune's first and second parts are in D, but the third and fourth parts are in G but with no Cs.
This to me is a perfect example of a tune being ambiguous
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
""Lots of pipey G tunes frequently make unashamed use of the Cnat"
Some examples would be useful!"
If I may step in:
The Red Haired Lass http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1716
The Boys of Portaferry http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1436
The West Wind http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2249
Bímís Ag Ól http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3456
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5428
Granted, there are a lot of tunes in G that are pentatonic or hexatonic, thus avoiding the 4th step of the scale. But I find it an odd assertion that there are few tunes in G that feature a C. (Although, to be fair, Jon K, you did say "*surprisingly* few"; perhaps you are surprised how few there are; perhaps *I* would be if I made a more detailed study.)
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Quickly ducking back in -
Re: Donnybrook Fair - I hear it in G all the way through, although you could surely start the B part on Em without causing any harm. I can't place the C chords in it for you without playing the tune, but I hear them when I play it.
@Emily - Let's say that when I went to find tunes in G to play on the D harmonica, I was looking for tunes which didn't have a C natural, or at least which only had C nats in un-emphasized places. I found a hell of a lot of them. I might still have the list at home somewhere. There's plenty of G tunes, with C chords, that don't have C in the melody. There are also plenty of G tunes with Cs in them, of course, but the ones without the C are what poke a hole in the rule Michael suggested.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@DonaldK
Good spot, that! Yes, and I do know Britches full of Stitches, and (as you say) it only uses five notes.
I don't understand the notes that you mention, though. Maybe you play it with a diiferent root.
The tune that I know has a root of A, and uses A-B-C#-E-F.
Whether it's in a major scale with two notes not used (as suggested by Solidmahog), or whether its a true pentatonic scale tune, I wouldn't like to say. The version that I know can be backed as if it were an A-major tune (A-Maj, E-Maj and D-Maj). But if it's pentatonic, you would have to omit the third when playing an E-Maj chord, to avoid breaking llig's rule!
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@Creadur - Reference "West Wind" - which note are you saying is missing?
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Here are a few that come to mind...
The West Clare
Sean Reid's
Munster Jig
Duke of Leinster
Woodcock
Lord MacDonald
Swinging on the Gate
Smell of the Bog
Jimmy Ward's Jig
Milliner's Daughter
Gold Ring
Tom Ward's Downfall
The Rookery
Cregg's Pipes
Bantry Bay
Humours of Ennistymon
Coppers and Brass
When the Cock Crows it is Day
Humours of Derrykissane
I am sure there are zillions more than that but that is what I could think of offhand, noodling around my repertoire for about twenty minutes.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yes, there are zillions and zillions at least.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by bogman
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix,
I would play Britches Full of Stitches in A as well. It's just that it is posted on this site in D.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
And I don't really see a difference between a pentatonic tune and one that doesn't use two notes of the scale - are they not one and the same?
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
And, Mix, you couldn't use youe D chord either.
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I've been thinking about this and I reckon there's a difference between a tune that is missing its 3rd or 7th and a tune that's missing its 4th. (this, of course, is assuming that the root is obvious - otherwise there would be no such identifiable thing as a 3rd, etc)
I don't think there is much ambiguity in a tune that misses its 4th (for example, a G tune with no C). If your tune clearly is resolving to G and there's prominent maj 3rds and maj 7ths (ie, lots of Gmaj and Dmaj chords) and there's a big moment in it where E is a prominent resting note, then I'd say go ahead and play the Cmaj chord. It's always gonna work a lot better than the rather limp Emin.
What I was referring to earlier is the lack of 3rds and/or 7ths.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I have finally found llig making a statement that is just flat-out wrong. He stated that all the best G major tunes have Cs in them. But Out on the Ocean, the best tune of them all, and a tune in G major, is devoid of any Cs, of either the natural or sharp variety. So there you go, wrong, wrong, wrong!
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Al, during the last run up to the g on the B part I play it dc#d def# gf#e dba. I always thought I was slopping it if I did a triplet(banjo) on the d and ignored the c#?
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by shanty
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I've never heard anyone put that c# in. The first part is pentatonic, and the second part just has a couple of f#'s as passing notes. Personally, I'd rather keep it as Al has it, without either C's or C#'s.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
If you think Out on the Ocean is "the best tune of them all", you seriously need to get out more.
However, case in point about the C chord, Yeah, play it when it goes to the E in the second part. (And I've heard the c# in that little run and it works OK, if that's what floats your boat.)
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
No, not "the best tune of them all", but far better than at lot of the very commonly known jigs such as Blackthorn Stick (Ugh!)
Here's my suggested chord setting for it:
http://www.intermix.freeuk.com/tune_examples/jigs/out_on_the_ocean.jpg
Maybe not perfect and maybe could be tweaked a little here and there ...
... but nothing ear-jarring, IMHO
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@Jon Kiparsky - FYI - Here's my suggested chord setting for "Donnybrook Fair"
http://www.intermix.freeuk.com/tune_examples/jigs/donnybrook_fair.jpg
.. you may care to give it a try ...
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@DonaldK, yes (applying llig's rule!) there would be an issue with Dmaj chords as well. Dunno why I didn't notice that!
... which would leave you wth only an AMaj chord! Well, I guess that you "could" drone away all the way through with just that chord, but personally I think that it would be better backed as if it were an A-Maj tune: i.e. using AMaj, EMaj & Dmaj.
Is a tune pentatonic? - Or major with just some notes not used?
An analogy: you wouldn't be able to conclude that the Welsh language didn't contain the letter "Q" just by reading one sentence of Welsh - to conclude that, you would need to consult a Welsh dictionary.
The tunes that we are talking about mostly only contain 16 bars (discounting the repeats).
Is that enough data on which to draw a conclusion? I'm not really sure.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
You can't use that "logic" argument. It doesn't work. It's like the daft creationists saying that just because no human skeleton has ever been found in a layer of strata underneath the layers where you find dinosaurs, doesn't mean that one will never be found.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Just because a tune is pentatonic doesn't mean the accompaniment has to be "pentatonic" as well, in my opinion.
Saying that the accompaniment can only use note used in the melody seems purely arbitrary to me and has nothing to do with listening. You might as well say that the notes have to be at the same pitch as well.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
And remember that the missing notes of the scale will be there in the overtone series of the existing notes. (And don't forget all the addition tones and difference tones created from double stringing.)
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
What about trying to sneak either of those notes into a run or the middle of a triplet or something and see if it sounds as if it could belong ? My ear often lets missing 3rds through but less commonly missing 7ths. Great discussion Mix.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by David50
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Is a 16 bar tune an island, entire unto itself...
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by David50
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Sorry, I meant missing 4ths, too busy thinking about islands.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by David50
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Several people have questioned Llig's "rule". But I don't remember him saying that it was a rule, which implies that it has to be stuck to no matter what, just that it would be nice if accompanists were sympathetic to the amiguities inherent in tunes with 'gaps'.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Perhaps I'm being a pleb, but to be quite honest, I can't be arsed with all this theory crap about accompaniment. Personally, for the most part, I try to keep things not too busy, stuff about with my fingers, and if it sounds crap, I stop doing what I'm doing, or do something else. Life's too short - I'd prefer to be playing some tunes on the fiddle than reading all of the contributions to this thread. So, please excuse me (runs out off yellow mustard board, ducking a volley of hot air...
).
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by On Sabbatical
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Well said Ron ' I'm with you on this one .
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by bazouki dave
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
DonaldK: "doesn't mean the accompaniment has to be "pentatonic""
Agreed!
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
llig: "You can't use that "logic" argument".
The quanity of data is always relevant. How much of the tune would you need to determine its mode? Two bars? Three bars?
If a piece of music were 1000 bars long and only used five notes of the scale, no-one could doubt that is was pentatonic ...
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
But that's my argument.
Accompaniment shouldn't be based on rules, it should be based on your lugs.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Donald K; Perhaps the major pentatonic scale isn't the best example.
When a tune has a melody that uses notes of a key signature that has say 1 # and is largely major in character it could easily be confused, by the unwary aspirant strummer, as belonging to a key signature which boasts 2 #'s and therefor likely to upset the strummers fellow sessioneers by the strummers lack of . The inclusion of said extra # in the chords used wouldn't sound nice or correct. I think in fairness this is what Mr Mix is driving at in 5) & 6) of his list, it's been done to death to be honest and I think, although I could be wrong, his intention was to court and generate some kind of controversial intrigue on the mustard board. But I think you know that.
My own approach, especially for ITM on the backing is to try and compliment the tunes in what I see as a complimentary in context style. As is pointed out with startling regularity here, guitar/general chordal accompaniment is relatively new to ITM STM, comparatively speaking, so just what comprises accompaniment in a complimentary in context is largely subjective and varies from ear to ear. Therefor my backing is constantly subject to revision and experimentation on my part. On analysis, I do tend to find that notes of any given tune tend to reflect the notes which I've chosen to alter or build chords with. My analysis is usually retrospective as over the years I've learned by trial and error adding to my tool box as I go.
As to overtone series and harmony that is and isn't there, thats perhaps best left unsaid as the last time that one was dragged out it caused no end of trouble.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
"Perhaps I'm being a pleb"
The common people of ancient Rome are most welcome to take part in this discussion, though positive contributions are preferred ....
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
When I listen to a tune I don't analyse it in terms of sharps or flats. I try to find a tonal centre and work from there. I can, for the most part hear the chords. Just as when melody players are playing tunes they don't think about the names of the notes so I don't necessarily think of the names of the chords. I think?
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Sorry, going to have to leave. Dog needs to go to the vet for her shots and then I have to take a bee nuke, and then I have to work. Keep discussing.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
If a piece of music was 1000 bars long and used 6 or 7 notes for a section in the middle would some people say that part of it was pentatonic and part was not ?
Does it matter when the gaps are filled ? Does the tune have to have got far enough for the ear to have appreciate it as gapped. (this said by the person with whistle who wishes he had stayed lurking but has decided that starting the Kesh with GF#G is not much of a test)
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by David50
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@DonaldK - A question for you! What chords would your lugs tell you to use for a straightforward EDor tune?
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Ah, david_h, but the 1000 bar piece I was thinking of didn't have that particular section in the middle ....
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix,
It depends on the tune, but it would be mostly Em and D with a bit of Bm and A and perhaps a G. As I say, it depends what the tune does.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I'm gonna have to spell this out. It's OK if some of you are not bothered with it, but if you're not, don't waste space by replying.
You have to ask, are the missing notes important to the flavour of the harmony. Why?
Take a tune/scale that is, from the root: tone, tone, three semitones, tone tone, semitone - eg. a Gmaj tune with no C. The Cnat is certainly implied here. Hence, the Cmaj triad is appropriate. No one would ever think that it is Csharp that is implied. Your ear just wouldn't imply it. This is what I mean about it being cultural. Implied harmonies exist because your brain fills in the gaps form experience. ie, experience of, in this case, the major scale.
Now take a tune that is, from the root: tone, three semitones, tone, tone, tone, semitone - i.e. what could be a Gmaj tune with no B. Or more commonly with this music, what could be a Dmaj tune with no F#. The reason this is a very different case from the above is that such a tune does not imply the major third and it's very important to keep this ambiguity. Such a tune, within this tradition, could just as equally imply the minor third, or even, though less commonly now, a note in between the major and minor third.
It's the tune's responsibility to be what it is. And it's the strummer's responsibility to allow it to be what it is. Don't give it the major or the minor third just because your ears say that that's the way you hear it. If you give it either you ruin the ambiguity.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
That was a quick visit to the vet's, Donald! - I trust that your canine is canny ...
Regrading chords for staright EDor tune, it's interesting to see that you and I are (amost) in agreement ...
... the only difference being that whereas you say "mostly Em and D", I would say "only Em and D" - unless of course the tune modulated in any way, in which case different chords might well apply.
But I'll have to confess that my question was something of "leading" one - i.e to demonstrate that theory (as well as lugs) can be useful when determining which chords to play ...
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Chords for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I go away for a few days & the board becomes theory-centric. What next?
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
**
Here is a tune, I'll call it "Cunla" after the recording by Liam O'Flynn w/Planxty. I have always enjoyed his version. There are some Abcs in the comments
T:?
May 21st 2001 by Jeremy
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/34
Our session plays a tune (maybe this tune) which was originally referred to as "The Frieze Britches" (now sometimes "Cunla"*) but we start it off with c naturals.
Anyhow, just thought I'd tag that on this thread; if for no other reason than to let anyone who hasn't heard this by Liam O'Flynn ... IMHO, it's worth a listen ;)
* I do play something of the version from the tune comments, though probably no more than a couple of rare occassions in our session.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Cool synopsis
I'm not joking here, I really do like this comment from llig:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24828#comment519298
There is plenty of good commentary in this thread. I'll have to stay away more often.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Observations et cetera..
How about addressing Mix’s original question to those at a session who accompany on things other than strummy things?
Obviously the same ‘rules’ and theories are relevant to note/ diad/ chord selection.
I mean asking box players left hands, the occasional regulating piper, that rarity: the harpist, plus pianists and harmoniumists (or wotteffah other keyboard based backers you may run in to). Then there’s the droney fiddling stuff and the occasional pizzicato/ sforzando twangs fiddlers may do.
When backing is being criticized, it’s always the six string devil botherers and to a lesser extent the ‘zoukers (who are slightly protected on account of most of them playing in a GDAE tuning which suits and feels at home with the melody-ists!). I won’t mention the baritone ukuleleists!!! The players above (box/ pipes/ harp/ fiddle) rarely get moaned about. Do they always get it right? Similarly banjoists who sort of half play the tune and half twang away on roots never seem to get slagged.
Maybe if the strummers looked (listened) to the good box players’ left hands, they wouldn’t make such a mess of it (although. Of course, some box players play nothing with their left or drone away on one button).
By the way, it’s all very well knowing or working out what key/ mode as tune is in but often you can get phlummoxed by the tune not starting on the I chord. e.g. Rakish Paddy is in D mix but starts on the VII chord.
Lastly, how do piano accordionists select which of the zillions of tiny buttons to push and keep it appropriate?
Hot water bottles to you all...
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
If you start Rackish Paddy on any other chord that a Cmaj any where near me, you'll get a kicking
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I prefer just a sort of power chord thing for the start of Rakish Paddy. D, A and c. Then, a couple of bars later, the 'standard' power chord of D, A and d. Try it for a change - see what you think ...
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yuueeeuuuck. That'll be a kicking for you then
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
OK. Each to his/her own.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I often play Rakish Paddy without taking my ring finger off the third fret of the B string, which means there is a droning D throughout the tune (standard tuning). And I pivot the other fingers around that anchor. I start with a C chord, with that D in it (which makes it what? a C+9 chord?} and then there are D chords, and A chords still with that D in them (is that an Asus4?), and maybe a few other chords in passing here and there, but always with that D in the middle.
I always thought it gave the tune a very pipey, droning feel, but perhaps I would be due for a kicking from llig if he were nearby!
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
An E dorian tune should be backed with A chord made up of E's and D's, a D maj maj 9 chord (droning root) , and have a G chord somewhere in passing.
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I can't really think of many E dorian tunes that don't change key or mode in the B part though. Cooley's stays in E Dor, but many others move to D major or G major for some time at which point you should use chords appropriate for that specific part of the tune that also leads well back to the original key for the repeat.
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I find that as you go you learn which tunes start with which chord, moves to which key or tonal centre, you learn if it resolve back to the original root or resolve to the root of the change etc.
Rakish Paddy a good example but it's just the tip of the iceberg, when backing I think about Rakish Paddy in terms of it being back to front chords wise. It's about getting to know the tunes, It's a D chord, but hold on; this ones really in G and so on........... It's all about knowing the tunes or at least noting which tunes do what.
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@yhaalhouse - picking up on your point on accompaniament from intruments other than guitars ...
Have a listen to the first tune on this youtube clip:
http://www.youtube.com/user/DerekTheNutter#p/u/15/Bp0lwFjWXOo
They're claiming it to be "an English melodeon Tune" called Tom o' Vickers. In reality an Irish polka called Tom McVicar's (but probably more commonly known as 69th Street, Galway Belle or Galway Rogue).
But, (leaving that title detail to one side) it's a straight EDorian tune.
The accompaniament (though not dischordant in any way) jars my ears as I don't feel that it is in keeping with the tune.
What do you think?
... And what does anyone else think?
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I think this whole debate is rather mute when comparing to band/performance/recording/arrangement things. When you are arranging things for performance, an interesting and different/strange harmony can work well. It's your performance, you can do what ever you want, arrange the most outlandish harmonies etc. And your audience will compose itself of people who share your taste.
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Moot llig.
Adjective: subject to debate, dispute or uncertainty.
Noun: an assembly held for debate, particularly in Anglo-Saxon and medieval times.
Of Germanic origin, related to "meet".
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Bernie 29
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Sorry if the debate has moved on, but I was wondering. If a tune in G with no 7th is played on the pipes could it be avoiding the 3rd of the drone as much as the 7th of the scale ?
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by David50
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yes, and it used to mean something that was so important, it would be brought up at the moot. Now, it almost means the opposite - something which is of academic interest only.
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
moot
2.of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic.
I was, of course, being obtuse
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@llig. Agreed. Performance playing is a different arena. But the youtube example was only for illustrative purposes.
My question is, would you appreciate those kinds of harmonies in a session situation?
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
no
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Most people just perform the melodies at sessions and shy away from playing intricate pre-arranged harmonies.
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Obtuse
Adjective: annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
Were you being that llig? I thought you were just making a fairly common mistake about the spelling of "moot ".
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Bernie 29
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Obtuse
3. rounded at the extremity
4. indistinctly felt or perceived
I was deliberatly using the two meanings of the word "moot" to make an obtuse point about the whole meaning/meaninglessness of this whole thread.
"Moot" is an autoantonym
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Maybe llig just likes to approach things from a differnt angle..
obtuse = angle > 90 degrees
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
That as well, of course
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mix
I didnt think that accompaniament was too bad but it came from hearing the tune from an english/morris perspective and setting including dancing . .In an Irish session I would expect a different bounce and pattern different dancing and playing.
As for if it is an irish or english tune such things are lost in the mists of time I dont see the point in trying to claim a tune as anyones
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by bazouki dave
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@bazouki dave
I wasn't commenting on the "pattern or bounce"! As my interests extend across the Irish, Scottish and English traditions, I'm quite familar with the style that English morris tunes are played.
My point was just that some (but not all) of the chords that they were using were treading on the tune - with the inference that I wouldn't like to heqr those kinds of chords used for accompaniment at a session. What these guys do in a performance situation is another matter, as llig as alreaded noted.
The tune in question actually has a passing resemblance to the tune that is used for an English traditional song called "Rambling Sailor"
But one thing's for sure: the tune is not known as "Tom O Vickers" - and it never has been.
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
We played "Tom McVicar's" (or whatever it's name is) at our English session last night - with no backers. So no problems for the session. I didn't know the tune so just sat back an listened. So again no problems for the session.
Afterwards there was a short discussion of the name, headed up mainly by our good Mr Mix.
I haven't checked yet, but is it here in the Tunes database? If not, then it should be, it's a cracking tune.
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Oops! typo there - the first "it's" should be "its"
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
@lazyhound 'twas posted to seesion.org many moons ago
Yer tiz:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/679
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Oops! typo there - I meant thesession.org, of course ...
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
A mischevious thought ....
If someone played me this tune (per abc below), and afterwards told me that it was entitled "Mary Black-Smith ", would it be right to add this name to the list of alternate names for the tune?
X: 1
T: Mary Black-Smith
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: reel
K: Dmaj
|:AB|d2dA BAFA|ABdA BAFA|ABde fded|Beed egfe|
d3A BAFA-|ABdA BAFA-|ABde fdec|dBAF D2:|
|:fg|a2ag f2fe|d2dA BAFA-|ABde fded|Beed egfg|
abag fgfe|dcdA BAFA|ABde fdec|dBAF D2:|
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Well, those whose native language isn't English, or whose command of English spelling may leave a little to be desired (the two conditions aren't necessarily coterminous, of course), could perhaps come up with something like "Mary Black-Smith" or "Mary Black Smith". However, unless a genuine specimen is found in the wild (perhaps on a CD listing), I'd be inclined not to add it to a list of alternate tune names - too much of this and things could get a bit out of hand and Jeremy might get cross.
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mary Lee Kissed the Chafer's Knife
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Obviously, She Begs for More, but also ...
Is She Here?
My Darling's a Sheep
My Sleeve Rustles
My Gin's in the Wood
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Well, Mr Lazyhound, the situation that I proposed was theoretical and my question was intended to be rhetorical
Nonetheless, you have provided the correct answer!
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Mary Black-Smith (and Tom o'Vickers) should be considered as "mondegreens" rather than as genuine "alt-names".
Click here for interesting web-page which discusses mondegreens, wih some amusing examples:
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/mondegre.htm
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
eb - not to forget of course, Danish Misfortune, Cliffs of Mohair and Laid Behind the Bar ,,,
# Posted on June 16th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
How about Carrot Berries, Hunter's Perks, Barney Pilgrim's.......
This was a good thread while it lasted.....
# Posted on June 17th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Yes, I good thread indeed - and thanks to all who contributed ...
... And refreshingly free from personal attacks and hostility, too!
Well, maybe apart from the threat of a "good kicking" from llig for any guitarist starting to back Rakish Paddy with any chord other than Cmaj ...
.. but even that would be justified, as Cmaj it certainly is ...
# Posted on June 17th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
I agree Re C for RP, but I think a kicking is a bit harsh TBH and if the guitarist is at all hardy then that could easily backfire.
# Posted on June 17th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
If the guitarist is even slightly handy, he can play an Fmaj7 if he wants.
# Posted on June 17th 2010 by ...
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Sorry to disappear. Lost our internet for 36 hours due to a fault at the local exchange.
# Posted on June 17th 2010 by DonaldK
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Well, welcome back, Donald! - Although I think that that we're pretty much played out with this one now.
Nonetheless, I'm sure that any further comments from your goodself might prove interesting ...
# Posted on June 17th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
As for the questions with which Mix started this discussion, here are my replies:
Yes to the first question;
Yes to the second question;
No to the third question;
A most definite YES to the fourth question;
Yes to the fifth question;
Yes to the sixth question;
No the seventh question;
And, last but no least, No to the eighth and last question.
As for question number two, at our local session, the guitarist and myself usually try to sit next to each other so we can be sure we are "playing the same chords at the same points of the tune".
As for question number seven, I don't arpeggiate chords unless it is one of the rare occasions when I am playing the melody and accompanying myself (especially on slower tunes). As for "bass runs", I am also a bass player as well as a pianist and it is second nature to me to include bass runs while I am playing.
Originally, I was only going to read this discussion and wasn't going to make any comments since I play piano instead of guitar; however, after reading through all two hundred plus comments, I decided to try to make the situation worse by posting some comments of my own.
The guitarist and myself don't expect the melody players at our local session to tell us what key they are playing in. Instead, we are expected to guess the key and come up with a "creative" and appropriate accompaniment. Whatever we are playing should fit into what the rest of the musicians at the session are playing and shouldn't stand out or be noticeable amongst what the other musicians are playing.
Yes it is better to have no accompanist than to have one who inadvertently ruins and destroys a session because they are inexperienced and don't know what they are doing or how to do it.
Llig Leahcim warns against trying to "ground every tune with a root" and he reminds us that accompanists/backup musicians need a "clear knowledge of what notes are NOT in the tune. Don't just hear a root, recognise a mode, and jump in with sets of chords that you have pre-assembled to fit." Which I think is important to know and remember--speaking from my own experience.
When I was playing piano at a local blues jam before I began playing piano at the local Irish music sessions, I learned not to try to force harmonies onto certain tunes which didn't require the third of the chord. The root and the fifth of the chord were enough for certain tunes.
# Posted on June 17th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: Questions for Session Guitarists (and others!)
Donald, blame the World Cup. Last weekend my broadband staggered almost to a halt for the best part of a day - presumably because most of the soccer enthusiasts nearby were grabbing most of the bandwidth either by watching it on their PC or downloading it from the BBC iPlayer - in HD of course.
# Posted on June 17th 2010 by Trevor Jennings