I just looked back over my old posts and dicovered that Ive been learning the fiddle now for 31/2 years (although I had to stop getting lessons about a year ago.. recession).,
Thing is, I had thought I would be better or at least have a bigger repetoire at this stage. At the moment I guess i can play 40/45 tunes comfy in a session. I suppose its still early days yet...... is it?
Same as me on the box. A lot more than 3.5 years but not much more than 40-45 tunes at session speed . Ok maybe a bit more than that, but who cares. Actually I'm past caring now. I just wheel them out.
absolutely. 40 plus tunes is a lot. You should be proud that you are already confidently playing at sessions . I still feel nervy when i play after 10 or more years. Keep playing it is a constant learning curve !
15.5 years and only 8/9 of a tune? Practice, man, practice!
(sorry, this is what comes of flipping between thesession.org and thedailywtf.com)
Seriously, you're probably coming close to a cusp. Once you start playing tunes in session a lot, things start to happen. You start knowing tunes you didn't know a minute ago. In another 3/2 of a year, you'll probably start noticing a difference, not necessarily in the number of tunes you know or the rate at which you learn them, but the way you come by them. (I'm assuming you're playing in a session at least once a week - that's the critical part)
You are exactly where YOU should be at 3 1/2 years. Nobody learns at the same speed. The next 40 tunes will come easier, and the 40 after that even easier.
Elaine - that one went around the office, and you could track its progress by the sudden silences, followed in each case by an "oh... my... god." And the wailing and rending of garments.
playing banjo for 2 and a half years,recently gave up lessons, have about 200 tunes ,session speed if i can remember them. once you get a good playing technique you should be able to learn any tunes, but i practice every day(but i enjoy it so its not a drag)
I really wouldn't worry about it, savage. Unless you start really young, when the brain's still wiring itself and is specially designed to learn quickly, it's a struggle for all of us.
There's definately times when you'll get a surge in learning - and you'll find you're playing tunes at a session that you've never 'learned', just absorbed. I can sight read easily on the box now in most keys - couldn't do that two years ago...
My box playing has been moving quite slowly, also. But lately, I seem to have reached some sort of critical mass, and more and more tunes that I could only kind of play on the box are getting rolled out at sessions, and tunes I only recently decided to learn are coming more quickly. Things don't go well the first few times I play a tune in public, which is why I hung back, but I realized that if I don't put those growing pains on display, I will never bring anything new out.
But finally, I think the basic mechanics and fingerings are finally falling into place. But like folks are saying, it is quality and enjoyment that matters, not quantity.
And there is nothing wrong with having an opportunity to drink and chat while listening to others play this fine music!
Forty to fifty is a good number of tunes after three and a half years, given that the best part of that time will have been spent getting to know the instrument as well as the tunes. Bear in mind that as you progress, each tune is constantly being re-learned with a new ear.
I've been playing Trad for about 4 years - learning fiddle for
5 years. Before I started I thought - it's just folk music - it will
take no time at all. The longer I work at it, the better I get - but I also
discover how much more scope there is for development on fiddle.
The goal of "not sucking" seems to recede further and further into
the distance.
I've been doing Trad flute for only a few months but if you didn't
know anything about that you'd say that flute/whistle was my
main instrument if you heard me at a session.
Well Ive been playing 5 and 1/2 years and up to 3 years I had around 50 maybe, but then something clicked and I started hankering after tunes like mad, I'd listen to the i-pod on the school bus every morning and somehow remember them when they came up in a session..... for anyone who plays the music I think there is this point where your repetoire expands rapidly, I'd say I've a good few hundred by now all learned in last 2 years
I've been playing for about five and a half years now and at the three year stage, was convinced it was all hopeless -- I'd never have the repertoire or the playing ability to give the tunes life or be much of a player.
I'm still not convinced I'll ever play how I want to play now or ever add anything to a session but there seem to be more glimmers of hope than there used to be.
Not that you're necessarily doing this, but get rid of any notion that someday you will be able to look at yourself and say "ahh... I've finally arrived". There is no destination, only a life-long journey. There may be milestones along the way, but you're never going to know all the tunes, and you're never going to be so good that you can't get better.
There are two separate issues here really. The first is playing your instrument well enough to be comfortably within the level of playing ability that is tolerated at the sessions that you attend. 3.5 years on the fiddle isn't long, it's a hard instrument, so if you've got that far then you've done well.
However with just 40-45 tunes up to speed you are going to spend a lot of time sitting out. The thing to do is to concentrate on tunes that are played regularly and which fall within your current capabilities. Typically that will mean those played at a more steady pace. Perhaps you could set yourself a goal of learning those at the rate of one per week or more.
Lots of good thoughts! Like Reverend says, enjoy the journey. John has a good idea in trying to learn a tune a week, perhaps, if you feel you'd like to have more. Then again, Jon (no h) has it right too in that you'll start to learn them in different ways and quicker too. That usually comes once you've got a decent handle on your instrument.
Which brings us to my thought. Perhaps you're just reaching the point where you really feel comfortable with the fiddle, as if you're connected to it? Not having to think about what your hands need to do is a big huge deal.
some great replys there thanks.
Yeah it seems that after 3 1/2 years its only now that the fiddle doesnt feel like some kind of awkward foreign body trying to jump out of my death grip. I guess now it sits in my arms and feels right there. Also the more i learn on it the more my ear can pick out all the things i'm doing wrong.
I guess I'll just keep practicing... lucky enough that was always the plan.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned here already, but any good player will tell you it's more important to play a few tunes well, than to know hundreds that you play sloppily. So in your case, if you know those 40 or so tunes good and well, that is fabulous! You may not be able to participate in a session as much as you'd like, but practicing the tunes you already know is going to do a lot to improve your playing, probably more so than merely gobbling up lots of new tunes.
To cite my own experience, last fall/winter I concentrated on learning a large set of new tunes to play in local sessions, but since then I have mainly just been practicing my existing repertoire. I haven't stopped continuing to learn tunes, but as I am now at a point that I can play comfortably approx. 3/4 of the time in local sessions, I'm choosing to mainly work on the tunes I already know.
Three and a half years on the fiddle is nothing. The frustration you're feeling right now is perfectly normal. It's important that you keep practising (every day). Listen carefully, look for squeaks, scrapes, jerkiness, etc. Isolate the problems and figure out how to make them go away. Work on a phrase in a tune that's giving you trouble. Play it over and over till it's no longer a problem. With that kind of attitude you will inevitably get better and better.
The frustration may be "normal" Steel Player but it isn't necessary or useful.
The "expert" you linked to is a classical violinist. The advice she gives may be appropriate to classical students, but I don't believe it applies to our music.
I don't believe "looking for" squeaks, scrapes, jerkiness etc is particularly helpful either.
The expert I linked to is a very fine "musician". It doesn't matter what genre of music of music we're talking about. Taking a few tips from our classical friends who have dedicated their lives to learning their instrument is not going to do us any harm or negatively impact on our ability to play ITM. It can only help. Learning to play fiddle is difficult. We need all the help we can get. Whether it's from a squeaky old codger in a pub in the wilds of Donegal or from an internationally renowned concert violinist, I'll take whatever nuggets of musical wisdom I can find and use them for myself.
Steel Player, many thanks for that link (and your last comment). Both are well up among the most important and useful I've seen on this site for many a year.
Another bit of advice to think about is that the amateurs practice until they get it right BUT the professionals practice until they can't get it wrong. A "professional" in this context is not necessarily someone who does it for a living.
"It doesn't matter what genre of music of music we're talking about. Taking a few tips from our classical friends who have dedicated their lives to learning their instrument is not going to do us any harm or negatively impact on our ability to play ITM. It can only help."
Well Steel, I don't think it does help, and I do think it matters what genre of music we're talking about, and I can explain why. The criteria for success in classical music are completely different, the process of learning it is completely different, and advice on the learning process therefore doesn't carry across.
If a professional is somebody who can't get it wrong, then the most admired traditional players aren't professionals.
And that's fine, because this isn't "professional" music, it's folk music, people's music, something a few idiots in every village can and should be able to do.
Thank you SWFL Fiddler. That's exactly the point I was trying to make.
I think you need to be aware of both classical pedagogy and the nuances of the respected trad players. Said players are not always technically flawless but that's ok too. It depends on what your personal goals are. For myself I'm driven to be the best I can be. As a professional musician I won't get paid if I'm out of tune and squeaking. No matter what level you aspire to you do need a certain level of technical accomplishment. If you don't have that then you're always going to be struggling against your limitations and this will effect your ability to "get into" the music. The way you interpret the music will be determined by your lack of technical ability rather than by what you really feel inside you about this wonderful music. I think it would be very foolish to ignore hundreds of years of violin pedagogy just because you say "I'm just a folk player".
Bernie 29, any person I've met who plays ITM at any level is far from being an idiot. It takes a lot of intelligence and discipline to be able to play even a few tunes.
Again, I'm being demotivated. This time by the other side of the argument. I bloody well hope it doesn't take "a lot of intelligence and discipline to be able to play even a few tunes". If it does, I'm sunk.
I suppose that partly accounts for your warped outlook then. But you're quite wrong to think the rest of us have to take the same attitude, we're not engaged in the same activity as you.
You really don't need any knowledge of classical pedagogy whatsoever to play this music perfectly.
"The way you interpret the music will be determined by your lack of technical ability"
I think, with regards to tradition Irish music, that statement is a little back to front. I'd say that a good deal of what traditional Irish music is is defined by a ceiling of technical ability. There are a number of specific examples -
Tone projection: not required. The music sounds better with a small intimate sound.
Position changing and flat keys: not required. All the notes you really need are, from the bottom up, D on the open D string, E, Fnat (occasionally), Fsharp, G, A (the open A string), B, C, Csharp, D, E (open E string) Fnat (occasionally), Fsharp, G, Gsharp (occasionally), A and the B with your pinky. Part of the thing that defines the tunes is their existence within this range, it's their flavour. For example, tunes in D major span an octave and a sixth, with the root being the lowest note in the tune. Tunes in Gmaj go from fourth below the root (D), one octave and a maj third, with the major third being the highest note. etc. It is very clear here that it's a lack of technical ability that defines the music itself, not one's personal lack of technical ability that restricts one's playing of it.
Being able to inaudibly change direction with the bow: not required. Again, one of the things that define the sound of the music is the audible changing of direction.
And I'm sure there's more.
It sounds like I'm splitting hairs here, but I think it's important to realise that a truly great art form has developed without the requirements of certain techniques considered essential for other musics of the world. I'm not saying that this is a good or bad thing, it's just the reality. And I'm not saying that if you do poses, for example, more technique than is required, your traditional Irish diddley music will suffer for it (unless, of course, time acquiring these techniques was at the expense of time which would have been better spent learning stuff like timing and phrasing).
Well I say it is a good thing llig. It's the same virtue that is found in Oriental brush painting. Extremely simple techniques which can be applied with great subtlety.
Saying it's a good thing that something requires less technique is the other side of saying it's a bad thing if something requires more technique. Great art is beyond technique, it doesn't matter. and that's true for irish diddley music and for complicated up the dusty bit classical stuff.
Be careful, the logical extension of lack of technique being a good thing is for everyone to give up playing tunes and just play the feckin bodhran.
Llig I agree with you (as usual). However this thread started off talking about people with little or no technique. You need a certain amount of technique to play diddley music. Not a lot admittedly but some. For this classical pedagogy is very useful and can save you years of frustration. Of course you don't need the same level of classical technique to play diddley music as you do to play the Beethoven violin concerto. As Llig said, a lot of ITM is shaped by the ceiling of technique reached by the composers and a lot of the players. However, if you're still nowhere near that ceiling go and get some classical lessons. You'll be very glad you did. Practice does not necessarily make perfect but perfect practice does. You don't need to be perfect to enjoy playing ITM but it's nice for you and your listeners if you put a little effort into it. You get a hell of a kick out seeing yourself progress and watching your listeners faces light up when they used to wince. Believe me I've been there both as wincer and wincee....
llig leahcim, wouldn't you still agree with SteelPlayer's point up to the "ceiling" you're referring to in ITM? For example, if you lack the skill to properly execute bowed triplets, that would limit your possible selection of ornaments to play in a given tune, correct?
For the most part, I agree with your comments about ITM not requiring as much technical competence as other music styles, but I still think SteelPlayer's point is valid for the player in their beginning stages. If a player's skill has not achieved the "ceiling" of potential technique, they will inherently be limited in what all they can play. That's not to say they cannot still be musical, just their options of expressiveness will be limited.
Nearly three years ago, after about six years of playing Irish fiddle I reached a dreaded plateau, and for the life of me I couldn't see any way off (except down!) and why I had stopped progressing. I suspected something technical was at the root of the problem, but I couldn't identify it. So I found a recommended very good classical teacher who didn't know me - an important consideration, I think - and who, as it happened, has been deeply involved in folk music since graduating.
She identified the fundamental problem (details of the bow hold) within minutes, and significant improvement kicked off immediately. Further lessons followed (and still do), based mainly on the Suzuki books, and I got more and more absorbed in music that I had known all my life from a different viewpoint as a cellist.
When I started lessons it was solely with the intention of helping my Irish/English fiddle playing, which it did and still does, but this year I have now mysteriously found myself playing in the violins of the chamber orchestra in which for the last 20 years or so I have played as a cellist - and I love every minute of the new challenge.
For the avoidance of doubt, I still enjoy my Irish and English sessions every week, go to tune learning classes and attend workshops on playing for dancers.
I think I found something we can all agree with in the todd ehle site when he commented that Suzuki told his students to only practice on the days they eat...
Here's my personal musical journey which I think is relevant to the discussion. In my twenties I taught myself to play fiddle so that I could play for the morris. I made good progress for a couple of years then hit a plateau at a standard which was the wrong side of medicocre. I did dabble with Irish music at that time and went to a few sessions but my playing ability was way off the mark.
In my forties I finally got fed up with my playing and took classical lessons for a few years. That helped a great deal, still no great shakes but ok. After that for many years the fiddle playing went on the back burner. I never stopped playing but it wasn't regular.
In my early fifties I took up the mandolin and soon started to get into Irish music in a big way. Now three years on I'm starting to play the music on the fiddle. It's coming along and in a month or two I reckon I'll get bold enough to take it along to the session. The combination of knowing the tunes via the mandolin repertoire plus the technique improvements from the classical lessons seems to have got me over the hump.
Modern classical violin teaching represents the end result of 500 years of evolution in terms of getting the best (for classical music) out of the instrument as regards tone, volume and variety of expression. As many have already said, much of that wouldn't be appropriate for Irish music but some bits are useful in my opinion:
Tone. Yes, I agree you don't want masses of tone projection but you do want a good, strong tone.
A nice relaxed bow hand with flexion in the wrist, so you can get those bowed triplets working in both directions.
Fluency of bowing, especially the ability to slur across the strings. This is handy if you want to do stuff like 3 up - 1 down for that Kevin Burke backbeat.
Detache bowing. The ability to stop and restart the bow on the strings allows you to put a bit of space between notes as a form of decoration.
Third position. I don't want to open that debate again, but personally I've never been comfortable with the pinky stretch for those few tunes that call for top c so I prefer to shift to third.
Session Savage, are you feeling a bit better now?
The musical journey is a long one and it's nice to get some sign posts along the way. It's easy to wander down cul-de-sacs and get off course. Some people only want to travel a short distance and others want to see how far they can get and that's just fine with me.
Further to Steel Player's link above to Todd Ehle's new website Todd has just released this video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCi4-SBaxaw&feature=digest
It is self-explanatory, but basically it's his final video as "ProfessorV" - and he signs off with a couple of tunes in farewell - The Castlebar Tramp, and The Green Groves of Erin.
I met an old guy a couple of years ago who said he was quite a guitarist in the 50's. We talked music while his wife and my mom chatted. As we talked he got more and more excited remembering his 'back in the days'. I asked if he still had a guitar and he said yes but he wasn't very good any more because his hands were so busted up from working hard his whole life. I convinced him to get it out and play. He did and the joy on his face while he was playing I will never forget. Was he 'deadly' on that old Les Paul? No. Did it matter? No.
My great grandfather made fiddles, I lived with him for a year in the last stages of his life back in a time when you could die at home with your family, rather than in a hospital or, worse yet, a convalescent home. He was dying and obviously couldn't play fiddle or concertina anymore, which he did, as well as dance and sing, in his youth. My aunt, who is an amazing person would go into his room and sing songs with him before he went to sleep each night. What joy that brought him I can't convey with words.
My Grandmother was a church organist for 50 years!
I don't think she worried much about being 'deadly' but she was a hell of a piano player, although she didn't start life as one.
The road is indeed long. Enjoy your music and make it a part of your life.
My Dad was a concert pianist between the Wars. but 6 years absence from playing music during WW2 put paid to that, and his working life took a different course. However, in later life he became a church organist in West Wales, which he did into his 70s. Mum was a graduate of Trinity College (London, not Dublin), teaching piano, violin and cello between the wars. In later life she returned to piano teaching in West Wales, and continued into her 80s. The organist at her funeral was one of her pupils, a comforting thought - the music being passed on like that.
It was my parents' policy not to teach me formally - but advice and supervision of my practice periods, there was plenty of that!
Well,
I took up the whistle about 2 years ago, and Play it for enjoyment, handy enough but do not play in sessions,
I took up the fiddle also about a year ago, I am mainly self thought !
I would not be comfortable playing in a session, but I have found of late that I am really comfortable playing tunes that I learnt last year, kinda revisited wheat I learnt ealier and I am able to play them without half the effort..
I would have about 20 tunes I could play hand....ranging from the Congress reel Gravel walks to easyish jigs.
PS..I would like to learn ornamentation ...and I have a terrible habit of humming olmost sexual groans while playing,practicing..
PPS..My idea of heaven,, is wife and kids gone shopping for the day.. me wondering which should I play first..fiddle,banjo..whistle of guitars....... IMO nothing beats playing irish music......nothing..
Idea of hell..wife arriving back early..house in mess and lots of instruments strewn across kitchen table...
Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
I just looked back over my old posts and dicovered that Ive been learning the fiddle now for 31/2 years (although I had to stop getting lessons about a year ago.. recession).,
Thing is, I had thought I would be better or at least have a bigger repetoire at this stage. At the moment I guess i can play 40/45 tunes comfy in a session. I suppose its still early days yet...... is it?
# Posted on June 9th 2010 by session savage
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Same as me on the box. A lot more than 3.5 years but not much more than 40-45 tunes at session speed
. Ok maybe a bit more than that, but who cares. Actually I'm past caring now. I just wheel them out.
# Posted on June 9th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
absolutely. 40 plus tunes is a lot. You should be proud that you are already confidently playing at sessions . I still feel nervy when i play after 10 or more years. Keep playing it is a constant learning curve !
# Posted on June 9th 2010 by richrua
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
15.5 years and only 8/9 of a tune? Practice, man, practice!
(sorry, this is what comes of flipping between thesession.org and thedailywtf.com)
Seriously, you're probably coming close to a cusp. Once you start playing tunes in session a lot, things start to happen. You start knowing tunes you didn't know a minute ago. In another 3/2 of a year, you'll probably start noticing a difference, not necessarily in the number of tunes you know or the rate at which you learn them, but the way you come by them. (I'm assuming you're playing in a session at least once a week - that's the critical part)
# Posted on June 9th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
You are exactly where YOU should be at 3 1/2 years.
Nobody learns at the same speed. The next 40 tunes will come easier, and the 40 after that even easier.
# Posted on June 9th 2010 by ElaineT
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
@Jon I love the dailywtf. Did you catch this one?
http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/ArticleTypeCodeSOD.aspx
# Posted on June 9th 2010 by ElaineT
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Elaine - that one went around the office, and you could track its progress by the sudden silences, followed in each case by an "oh... my... god." And the wailing and rending of garments.
# Posted on June 9th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
playing banjo for 2 and a half years,recently gave up lessons, have about 200 tunes ,session speed if i can remember them. once you get a good playing technique you should be able to learn any tunes, but i practice every day(but i enjoy it so its not a drag)
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by banjitar
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
I really wouldn't worry about it, savage. Unless you start really young, when the brain's still wiring itself and is specially designed to learn quickly, it's a struggle for all of us.
There's definately times when you'll get a surge in learning - and you'll find you're playing tunes at a session that you've never 'learned', just absorbed. I can sight read easily on the box now in most keys - couldn't do that two years ago...
Keep with it!
Eno
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by bc_box_player
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
What's wrong with you people? I started playing bodhran two days ago and I can play every tune!!!
just kidding...the key is to enjoy playing what you play. Don't stress it. If you wish to improve faster, up your playing/practice time.
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by shanty
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
My box playing has been moving quite slowly, also. But lately, I seem to have reached some sort of critical mass, and more and more tunes that I could only kind of play on the box are getting rolled out at sessions, and tunes I only recently decided to learn are coming more quickly. Things don't go well the first few times I play a tune in public, which is why I hung back, but I realized that if I don't put those growing pains on display, I will never bring anything new out.
But finally, I think the basic mechanics and fingerings are finally falling into place. But like folks are saying, it is quality and enjoyment that matters, not quantity.
And there is nothing wrong with having an opportunity to drink and chat while listening to others play this fine music!
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
I thought I'd be dead by now.
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
But, seriously - 34 years on the fiddle - I thought I'd be competent by now. I should've promoted it above the guitar years ago.
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Forty to fifty is a good number of tunes after three and a half years, given that the best part of that time will have been spent getting to know the instrument as well as the tunes. Bear in mind that as you progress, each tune is constantly being re-learned with a new ear.
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by gam
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
I've been playing Trad for about 4 years - learning fiddle for
5 years. Before I started I thought - it's just folk music - it will
take no time at all. The longer I work at it, the better I get - but I also
discover how much more scope there is for development on fiddle.
The goal of "not sucking" seems to recede further and further into
the distance.
I've been doing Trad flute for only a few months but if you didn't
know anything about that you'd say that flute/whistle was my
main instrument if you heard me at a session.
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by Hup
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Well Ive been playing 5 and 1/2 years and up to 3 years I had around 50 maybe, but then something clicked and I started hankering after tunes like mad, I'd listen to the i-pod on the school bus every morning and somehow remember them when they came up in a session..... for anyone who plays the music I think there is this point where your repetoire expands rapidly, I'd say I've a good few hundred by now all learned in last 2 years
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by premier
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
I've been playing for about five and a half years now and at the three year stage, was convinced it was all hopeless -- I'd never have the repertoire or the playing ability to give the tunes life or be much of a player.
I'm still not convinced I'll ever play how I want to play now or ever add anything to a session but there seem to be more glimmers of hope than there used to be.
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
After a couple of years I just sold my fiddle...
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by buddhuu
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Not that you're necessarily doing this, but get rid of any notion that someday you will be able to look at yourself and say "ahh... I've finally arrived". There is no destination, only a life-long journey. There may be milestones along the way, but you're never going to know all the tunes, and you're never going to be so good that you can't get better.
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
There are two separate issues here really. The first is playing your instrument well enough to be comfortably within the level of playing ability that is tolerated at the sessions that you attend. 3.5 years on the fiddle isn't long, it's a hard instrument, so if you've got that far then you've done well.
However with just 40-45 tunes up to speed you are going to spend a lot of time sitting out. The thing to do is to concentrate on tunes that are played regularly and which fall within your current capabilities. Typically that will mean those played at a more steady pace. Perhaps you could set yourself a goal of learning those at the rate of one per week or more.
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Lots of good thoughts! Like Reverend says, enjoy the journey. John has a good idea in trying to learn a tune a week, perhaps, if you feel you'd like to have more. Then again, Jon (no h) has it right too in that you'll start to learn them in different ways and quicker too. That usually comes once you've got a decent handle on your instrument.
Which brings us to my thought. Perhaps you're just reaching the point where you really feel comfortable with the fiddle, as if you're connected to it? Not having to think about what your hands need to do is a big huge deal.
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
some great replys there thanks.
Yeah it seems that after 3 1/2 years its only now that the fiddle doesnt feel like some kind of awkward foreign body trying to jump out of my death grip. I guess now it sits in my arms and feels right there. Also the more i learn on it the more my ear can pick out all the things i'm doing wrong.
I guess I'll just keep practicing... lucky enough that was always the plan.
# Posted on June 10th 2010 by session savage
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned here already, but any good player will tell you it's more important to play a few tunes well, than to know hundreds that you play sloppily. So in your case, if you know those 40 or so tunes good and well, that is fabulous! You may not be able to participate in a session as much as you'd like, but practicing the tunes you already know is going to do a lot to improve your playing, probably more so than merely gobbling up lots of new tunes.
To cite my own experience, last fall/winter I concentrated on learning a large set of new tunes to play in local sessions, but since then I have mainly just been practicing my existing repertoire. I haven't stopped continuing to learn tunes, but as I am now at a point that I can play comfortably approx. 3/4 of the time in local sessions, I'm choosing to mainly work on the tunes I already know.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by The David Dude
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Three and a half years on the fiddle is nothing. The frustration you're feeling right now is perfectly normal. It's important that you keep practising (every day). Listen carefully, look for squeaks, scrapes, jerkiness, etc. Isolate the problems and figure out how to make them go away. Work on a phrase in a tune that's giving you trouble. Play it over and over till it's no longer a problem. With that kind of attitude you will inevitably get better and better.
Here's some good advice from an expert:
http://www.hilaryhahn.com/favorites/fav_05.shtml
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by SteelPlayer
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
The frustration may be "normal" Steel Player but it isn't necessary or useful.
The "expert" you linked to is a classical violinist. The advice she gives may be appropriate to classical students, but I don't believe it applies to our music.
I don't believe "looking for" squeaks, scrapes, jerkiness etc is particularly helpful either.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by Bernie 29
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
The expert I linked to is a very fine "musician". It doesn't matter what genre of music of music we're talking about. Taking a few tips from our classical friends who have dedicated their lives to learning their instrument is not going to do us any harm or negatively impact on our ability to play ITM. It can only help. Learning to play fiddle is difficult. We need all the help we can get. Whether it's from a squeaky old codger in a pub in the wilds of Donegal or from an internationally renowned concert violinist, I'll take whatever nuggets of musical wisdom I can find and use them for myself.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by SteelPlayer
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Steel Player, many thanks for that link (and your last comment). Both are well up among the most important and useful I've seen on this site for many a year.
Another bit of advice to think about is that the amateurs practice until they get it right BUT the professionals practice until they can't get it wrong. A "professional" in this context is not necessarily someone who does it for a living.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
"It doesn't matter what genre of music of music we're talking about. Taking a few tips from our classical friends who have dedicated their lives to learning their instrument is not going to do us any harm or negatively impact on our ability to play ITM. It can only help."
Well Steel, I don't think it does help, and I do think it matters what genre of music we're talking about, and I can explain why. The criteria for success in classical music are completely different, the process of learning it is completely different, and advice on the learning process therefore doesn't carry across.
If a professional is somebody who can't get it wrong, then the most admired traditional players aren't professionals.
And that's fine, because this isn't "professional" music, it's folk music, people's music, something a few idiots in every village can and should be able to do.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by Bernie 29
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
It depends on what you're talking about.
For actually playing the instrument, classical has lots to teach us about that, the nuts and bolts of fiddle scraping.
For the finer points about the music we want to play, it doesn't.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Thank you SWFL Fiddler. That's exactly the point I was trying to make.
I think you need to be aware of both classical pedagogy and the nuances of the respected trad players. Said players are not always technically flawless but that's ok too. It depends on what your personal goals are. For myself I'm driven to be the best I can be. As a professional musician I won't get paid if I'm out of tune and squeaking. No matter what level you aspire to you do need a certain level of technical accomplishment. If you don't have that then you're always going to be struggling against your limitations and this will effect your ability to "get into" the music. The way you interpret the music will be determined by your lack of technical ability rather than by what you really feel inside you about this wonderful music. I think it would be very foolish to ignore hundreds of years of violin pedagogy just because you say "I'm just a folk player".
Bernie 29, any person I've met who plays ITM at any level is far from being an idiot. It takes a lot of intelligence and discipline to be able to play even a few tunes.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by SteelPlayer
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
You're a professional fiddler?
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by Bernie 29
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Yep
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by SteelPlayer
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Again, I'm being demotivated. This time by the other side of the argument. I bloody well hope it doesn't take "a lot of intelligence and discipline to be able to play even a few tunes". If it does, I'm sunk.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
I'm trying to think where I've heard these arguments from a professional multi-instrumentalist before ... [scratches head]
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
I suppose that partly accounts for your warped outlook then. But you're quite wrong to think the rest of us have to take the same attitude, we're not engaged in the same activity as you.
You really don't need any knowledge of classical pedagogy whatsoever to play this music perfectly.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by Bernie 29
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
"The way you interpret the music will be determined by your lack of technical ability"
I think, with regards to tradition Irish music, that statement is a little back to front. I'd say that a good deal of what traditional Irish music is is defined by a ceiling of technical ability. There are a number of specific examples -
Tone projection: not required. The music sounds better with a small intimate sound.
Position changing and flat keys: not required. All the notes you really need are, from the bottom up, D on the open D string, E, Fnat (occasionally), Fsharp, G, A (the open A string), B, C, Csharp, D, E (open E string) Fnat (occasionally), Fsharp, G, Gsharp (occasionally), A and the B with your pinky. Part of the thing that defines the tunes is their existence within this range, it's their flavour. For example, tunes in D major span an octave and a sixth, with the root being the lowest note in the tune. Tunes in Gmaj go from fourth below the root (D), one octave and a maj third, with the major third being the highest note. etc. It is very clear here that it's a lack of technical ability that defines the music itself, not one's personal lack of technical ability that restricts one's playing of it.
Being able to inaudibly change direction with the bow: not required. Again, one of the things that define the sound of the music is the audible changing of direction.
And I'm sure there's more.
It sounds like I'm splitting hairs here, but I think it's important to realise that a truly great art form has developed without the requirements of certain techniques considered essential for other musics of the world. I'm not saying that this is a good or bad thing, it's just the reality. And I'm not saying that if you do poses, for example, more technique than is required, your traditional Irish diddley music will suffer for it (unless, of course, time acquiring these techniques was at the expense of time which would have been better spent learning stuff like timing and phrasing).
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by ...
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Well I say it is a good thing llig. It's the same virtue that is found in Oriental brush painting. Extremely simple techniques which can be applied with great subtlety.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by Bernie 29
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Saying it's a good thing that something requires less technique is the other side of saying it's a bad thing if something requires more technique. Great art is beyond technique, it doesn't matter. and that's true for irish diddley music and for complicated up the dusty bit classical stuff.
Be careful, the logical extension of lack of technique being a good thing is for everyone to give up playing tunes and just play the feckin bodhran.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by ...
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Llig I agree with you (as usual). However this thread started off talking about people with little or no technique. You need a certain amount of technique to play diddley music. Not a lot admittedly but some. For this classical pedagogy is very useful and can save you years of frustration. Of course you don't need the same level of classical technique to play diddley music as you do to play the Beethoven violin concerto. As Llig said, a lot of ITM is shaped by the ceiling of technique reached by the composers and a lot of the players. However, if you're still nowhere near that ceiling go and get some classical lessons. You'll be very glad you did. Practice does not necessarily make perfect but perfect practice does. You don't need to be perfect to enjoy playing ITM but it's nice for you and your listeners if you put a little effort into it. You get a hell of a kick out seeing yourself progress and watching your listeners faces light up when they used to wince. Believe me I've been there both as wincer and wincee....
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by SteelPlayer
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
llig leahcim, wouldn't you still agree with SteelPlayer's point up to the "ceiling" you're referring to in ITM? For example, if you lack the skill to properly execute bowed triplets, that would limit your possible selection of ornaments to play in a given tune, correct?
For the most part, I agree with your comments about ITM not requiring as much technical competence as other music styles, but I still think SteelPlayer's point is valid for the player in their beginning stages. If a player's skill has not achieved the "ceiling" of potential technique, they will inherently be limited in what all they can play. That's not to say they cannot still be musical, just their options of expressiveness will be limited.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by The David Dude
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
That isn't me with "the warped outlook" is it, Bernie 29?
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Nearly three years ago, after about six years of playing Irish fiddle I reached a dreaded plateau, and for the life of me I couldn't see any way off (except down!) and why I had stopped progressing. I suspected something technical was at the root of the problem, but I couldn't identify it. So I found a recommended very good classical teacher who didn't know me - an important consideration, I think - and who, as it happened, has been deeply involved in folk music since graduating.
She identified the fundamental problem (details of the bow hold) within minutes, and significant improvement kicked off immediately. Further lessons followed (and still do), based mainly on the Suzuki books, and I got more and more absorbed in music that I had known all my life from a different viewpoint as a cellist.
When I started lessons it was solely with the intention of helping my Irish/English fiddle playing, which it did and still does, but this year I have now mysteriously found myself playing in the violins of the chamber orchestra in which for the last 20 years or so I have played as a cellist - and I love every minute of the new challenge.
For the avoidance of doubt, I still enjoy my Irish and English sessions every week, go to tune learning classes and attend workshops on playing for dancers.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
And this man deserves a medal/knighthood/sainthood
http://www.toddehle.com/
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by SteelPlayer
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
I'm liking this thread ... I like the discourse and I'm enjoying refining my agreement. What a refreshing place without Dick Miles and The Jig Geezer.
# Posted on June 11th 2010 by ...
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Amen to the good discussion Michael!
I think I found something we can all agree with in the todd ehle site when he commented that Suzuki told his students to only practice on the days they eat...
# Posted on June 12th 2010 by cboody
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
I generally use a different rule. I always told my students to practice on days that end in a y.
# Posted on June 12th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Here's my personal musical journey which I think is relevant to the discussion. In my twenties I taught myself to play fiddle so that I could play for the morris. I made good progress for a couple of years then hit a plateau at a standard which was the wrong side of medicocre. I did dabble with Irish music at that time and went to a few sessions but my playing ability was way off the mark.
In my forties I finally got fed up with my playing and took classical lessons for a few years. That helped a great deal, still no great shakes but ok. After that for many years the fiddle playing went on the back burner. I never stopped playing but it wasn't regular.
In my early fifties I took up the mandolin and soon started to get into Irish music in a big way. Now three years on I'm starting to play the music on the fiddle. It's coming along and in a month or two I reckon I'll get bold enough to take it along to the session. The combination of knowing the tunes via the mandolin repertoire plus the technique improvements from the classical lessons seems to have got me over the hump.
Modern classical violin teaching represents the end result of 500 years of evolution in terms of getting the best (for classical music) out of the instrument as regards tone, volume and variety of expression. As many have already said, much of that wouldn't be appropriate for Irish music but some bits are useful in my opinion:
Tone. Yes, I agree you don't want masses of tone projection but you do want a good, strong tone.
A nice relaxed bow hand with flexion in the wrist, so you can get those bowed triplets working in both directions.
Fluency of bowing, especially the ability to slur across the strings. This is handy if you want to do stuff like 3 up - 1 down for that Kevin Burke backbeat.
Detache bowing. The ability to stop and restart the bow on the strings allows you to put a bit of space between notes as a form of decoration.
Third position. I don't want to open that debate again, but personally I've never been comfortable with the pinky stretch for those few tunes that call for top c so I prefer to shift to third.
# Posted on June 12th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Session Savage, are you feeling a bit better now?
The musical journey is a long one and it's nice to get some sign posts along the way. It's easy to wander down cul-de-sacs and get off course. Some people only want to travel a short distance and others want to see how far they can get and that's just fine with me.
# Posted on June 12th 2010 by SteelPlayer
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Further to Steel Player's link above to Todd Ehle's new website Todd has just released this video on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCi4-SBaxaw&feature=digest
It is self-explanatory, but basically it's his final video as "ProfessorV" - and he signs off with a couple of tunes in farewell - The Castlebar Tramp, and The Green Groves of Erin.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
I met an old guy a couple of years ago who said he was quite a guitarist in the 50's. We talked music while his wife and my mom chatted. As we talked he got more and more excited remembering his 'back in the days'. I asked if he still had a guitar and he said yes but he wasn't very good any more because his hands were so busted up from working hard his whole life. I convinced him to get it out and play. He did and the joy on his face while he was playing I will never forget. Was he 'deadly' on that old Les Paul? No. Did it matter? No.
My great grandfather made fiddles, I lived with him for a year in the last stages of his life back in a time when you could die at home with your family, rather than in a hospital or, worse yet, a convalescent home. He was dying and obviously couldn't play fiddle or concertina anymore, which he did, as well as dance and sing, in his youth. My aunt, who is an amazing person would go into his room and sing songs with him before he went to sleep each night. What joy that brought him I can't convey with words.
My Grandmother was a church organist for 50 years!
I don't think she worried much about being 'deadly' but she was a hell of a piano player, although she didn't start life as one.
The road is indeed long. Enjoy your music and make it a part of your life.
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by shanty
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
My Dad was a concert pianist between the Wars. but 6 years absence from playing music during WW2 put paid to that, and his working life took a different course. However, in later life he became a church organist in West Wales, which he did into his 70s. Mum was a graduate of Trinity College (London, not Dublin), teaching piano, violin and cello between the wars. In later life she returned to piano teaching in West Wales, and continued into her 80s. The organist at her funeral was one of her pupils, a comforting thought - the music being passed on like that.
It was my parents' policy not to teach me formally - but advice and supervision of my practice periods, there was plenty of that!
# Posted on June 13th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Thought I'ld be deadly by now?
Well,
I took up the whistle about 2 years ago, and Play it for enjoyment, handy enough but do not play in sessions,
I took up the fiddle also about a year ago, I am mainly self thought !
I would not be comfortable playing in a session, but I have found of late that I am really comfortable playing tunes that I learnt last year, kinda revisited wheat I learnt ealier and I am able to play them without half the effort..
I would have about 20 tunes I could play hand....ranging from the Congress reel Gravel walks to easyish jigs.
PS..I would like to learn ornamentation ...and I have a terrible habit of humming olmost sexual groans while playing,practicing..
PPS..My idea of heaven,, is wife and kids gone shopping for the day.. me wondering which should I play first..fiddle,banjo..whistle of guitars....... IMO nothing beats playing irish music......nothing..
Idea of hell..wife arriving back early..house in mess and lots of instruments strewn across kitchen table...
# Posted on June 14th 2010 by premierview