Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I come here to get away from all that sh*t. So its a no from me not interested. Your like someone bigging up the new square wheel and no I havnt read your post but I know what your about and its not traditional irish music. Its about furthering your i.t. endevours and I 'm sure I won't put you off but if you're into creating apps then create apps you certainly have a gift for it but why waste it on a product that is already decades in the making and with traditional emotive connections with people. Are you just trying to hack people off? I know you play and fair play but but this isnt the way it can't be a helpful tool its another instrument. This site is about traditional Irish music. Do you peddle your apps on thrash metal sites? Look at the market for rock band games surely that is more lucrative. Leave us alone.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Hey, come on , Eósaph, that's, at best, over harsh. Michael's all right, and I reckon his stuff is interesting, and even informative from a trad point of view. Not that I particularly want an i-phone (or pad), but it's things like Michael's neat Apps and Skooter's neat Tunepal thingie that might make me get one. I honestly doubt Michael's in it for the money, btw, so that missile is somewhat off the mark, I reckon.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Yes I do find it interesting and there are many site on the web I can go for interesting stuff but I choose to come here.(smiley face) (I have no emoticoms maybe Michael can help me) but this is about trad irish and I'm sure there are plenty of other types of music sites that will benefit more from Michaels stuff.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Michael Eskin can't you just make a website and put it in your profile then we can choose to visit your little app when we choose to and not have it given a fortnightly update on the discussions boards of this site?
Your last 5 discussions submitted are:-
More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans... June 4th 2010
For some a dream, for others, your worst nightmare May 18th 2010
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Michael is upfront about what those threads involve. I wish more discussions used such clear titles. Besides, he is a MacSpeakingAppWritingDeveloperJunkie, if anyone has yet to suss out the obvious; http://www.appstorehq.com/michaeleskin-24231/developer?
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
What's that RH? - punishment for having a pop at Michael?That's harsh. I'm sure he's up for it. He's marketing. I know it and I'm sure he does too. And in my opinion Michael you can take your crap elsewhere.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I agree, plenty of stuff to ignore on this board, as evidenced by the responses in this thread...
If you don't like it, there's plenty of internet out there for you to explore.
Some people find what I do interesting and useful.
And yes, since this is essentially a 4-octave Hayden concertina with a shiny skin, it does directly relate to ITM, I hear from many players who are interested in the possibilities with the Hayden layout, this gives a very easy way to explore that instrument.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Fair play, D.J.F. no worries.
Joseph, I read your earlier post, & aside from your panting angst you definitely don't approve of Michael Eskin posting what you consider advertisements. If so, the only recourse you really have, beyond letting Michael know exactly what you think he should do, is tell Jeremy what you think should be the best policy on such discussions.
Typed the above before your most recent post, Joseph*. Frankly, I wish this site had a "for sale" section ~ what do you think? Once again, talk to the webmaster. As far as I can tell Jeremy has decided that Michael can post threads about his apps.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
And your gut and mine are clearly not in agreement. But apparently, you don't have room to have a reasonable discussion outside of a very narrowly defined set of parameters about what is and is not related to this music.
I'm interested in developing very low cost tools that people can carry in their pockets to help them practice and learn instruments without spending more than couple of bucks.
Lots of people enjoy what I'm doing and see the value. You don't. I have no problem with that, but I'm not going to stop the conversation just because it doesn't agree with your gut.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I get your thing and respect your efforts but not here. Here, its crap.
People come here looking for stuff about something that poets struggle with only to come across some bloody app saying "here learn quicker".
I don't know much but I know that is bullsh*t
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Oh, and don't give me that "I get your thing and respect your efforts" cr*p. But you don't get to decide what does and does not get discussed on this board, anymore than the fact that I'm not particularly interested in hurdy gurdys mean that they have no place being discussed here. Like you said its a discussion board, and you should go find discussions that you are interested in participating in rather than expressing your upset over those that don't meet your narrow view of what should or should not be open for discussion here.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Michael - I think everyone here gets the point. You make doohickety things that have pictures of concertina keyboards on them, and they make noise. Congratulations.
I guess if you're going to post the same single message over and over again, this is better than some you could choose, but it's getting a bit old at this point. Surely if anyone had a use for such a thing here, they know about it now, don't they?
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Sheesh! Spoken like folks who are so 'disinterested' that they haven't even bothered to see what he's actually done. If you aren't interested, don't buy one. Simple.
And FYI, seems a lot of folks *are* finding those apps interesting and even useful. Go figure!
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I'm wondering what we'd be saying if he were posting, say, repeated announcements of his album, that it's available. And you can buy it at iTunes. And, oh, it's available. And yes, you can buy it. And it's got music on it. And on, and on.
Enough already. We know about the damned app, give it a rest.
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If you think I'm getting rich selling IRTrad apps, you've got to be kidding. Its a niche of niche of niche. I'm happy if the apps pay for the development systems I have to buy to make them.
Bryan isn't getting rich off his app development efforts either, so your "you're just in it for the money" tack is completely self-serving, designed to trigger one of your "gut" reactions in like-minded others so they can feel justified piling on.
My motivation in this is the enjoyment in sharing some interesting possibilities with other like-minded tech-savvy players like me who are interested in using technology to expand the possibilities for their learning and enjoyment of this music. At this point, I'm writing apps because players email and ask me to develop something they would like to experiment with, and I generally will. In the process I learn about some new concertina fingering system and make what I do available to everyone for just two or three dollars rather than having to spend thousands. In this case, for HexJam, in the end it was a great way to do a Hayden style concertina, just with shiny buttons, I thought that was pretty cool and something that other concertina players (I gather you aren't one) might be interested in seeing a live demo of what was possible.
If what I'm doing doesn't interest you, or fit into your world view of what is and is not related to IRTrad, again, there's plenty of other discussions here and elsewhere that would make you much happier than fighting with me on this board, because I not backing down, ever.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Jon, there isn't "the damned app". When I did the Anglo concertinas, the English Concertina players asked for an app, so I did a series of English concertinas based on their request. Now some Hayden style players asked me to do this crazy Hayden-based jammer thing, so I did it. If you're into these styles of concertinas, we'd be having a different conversation. Then there are the Uilleann piping emulator apps like Uilleann and Uilleann-B for a completely different set of players.
Since I play both Anglo concertina and pipes, I'm going to naturally talk about what I'm working on with other like minded players of the same instruments. There isn't "the damned app", there's "all those damned apps".
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Oh for goodness sake! So Michael makes a product that relates in certain ways and mentions it here. How can anyone presume to know his motivations? They could vary from strictly money interests to total altruism. We don't know. He does. I belong to some hammered dulcimer groups where one player trying very hard to forge a career posts a message every time her group hiccups. I don't sit in judgment on her nor Michael. I figure someone might want to know about these things, so let the posters post.
As others have pointed out Michael's posts are no more off topic than many others out here, and much less off topic that many discussions end up.
Find something worthwhile to crab about...all of you.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
If I was only into it for the money, don't you think I'd have instead written and aggressively marketed a concertina app that makes pitched fart noises, not spent nearly all my weekends and nights for six months writing apps that only address a niche of a niche of a niche...
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Unknot your knickers Jon. I meant what I said. It is a colossal waste of time to extend this discussion.
Michael: I've spent years programming. I know that no one except a company drone could possible expect a lot of money. All I'm saying is you know your motivations and we shouldn't judge them.
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I'm with fidkid. Where do these people get off insulting new technology on a website that didn't even exist 10 years ago?! Go turn off your electricity on your way out.
No wonder I left. F*cking b*llsh*t is right. Good on you, Michael, for putting up with it as long as you have.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
C - that was a cross-post, aimed at Michael's defiant tone. Yours, I'm afraid, is less cute - too grumpy. Work on it. Try a little Horatio At the Bridge, heroic pose stuff.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Hey whingers, learn to use the thread subject line as a filter.
If what you really need is a venue for the righteous anger you have been building up since someone stole your marbles/skipping rope, look for a forum that caters to this. If you regularly read threads which will make you angry, then perhaps you don't know your own needs. In this case start reading this paragraph again. If you don't know how to use the subject line as a filter, it is simple. Read the subject line and decide if you are interested in the subject. If you are, click on it. If you are not, don't.
And don't worry about threads which do not appeal to your idea of the forum. They won't use up all of the resources here, there is no practical limit to the number of threads which can be started.
I have a couple of Eskin's apps; they are fun. I think he hits the post/send button a little too often, but I don't have to read them, and mostly I don't. However I think he is a minor hero for extending what is possible, and while I think it unlikely, I wish he would get lots of rewards for it.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I can appreciate Jon's position, I've been posting a lot about the apps the past few months, but its what I've been focusing on and I'm very excited about some of the results, since much of what I'm doing hasn't been done before on such a widely available platform as the iPhone/iPod Touch (and now the iPad), and I like sharing the result.
I'd love to talk about other subjects on the board besides apps, but pretty much, more often than not it seems no matter the topic, if it even slightly deviates from some people's reality, they come in and do to it exactly what happened in this thread, i.e. shut down all reasonable discussion. You can't talk about even the most basic thing, like whistle ornamentation, without the conversation turning into a religious war.
As a result, I'm not motivated much to participate otherwise anymore. I know far more people who have left this board for good than who are still on it.
So, I post info about what I'm doing with new apps that relate to IRTrad since there are still some people left here who are interested and invite people to come visit us here in San Diego to check out the local trad scene, that's about it.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Sorry to hear the numpties have got you off the board, Michael. Obviously you've got a lot of knowledge about the music, and you're obviously pretty good at talking about it - it would be nice to have you participating here.
"Numpties" - great word, that.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Jon, honestly, my intentions aren't just to do what might be interpreted as marketing on thesession.org, its just what I've been up to since November, almost to the exclusion of everything else. I've definitely tried to limit starting new threads in the past few months to only every few weeks, and only when I've finished some significant new app. Similarly, on other boards, I limit new thread posts to once per month, which I don't think is unreasonable even if it were pure marketing, which it really isn't.
The good news is that right now, I don't have any other apps under development, so I will have a lot more time to get back into my daily practice regimen and maybe have something else to talk about besides shiny concertina variants.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Actually, Emily, Irish dance music comes significantly after the dark ages, but yes, this is a place where some pretty old stuff is fashionable. What brings you here, then?
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Looking forward to it, Michael. I've been pretty immersed in code since about October, just putting head above water now, so I know what it's like to come up out of that. Ironically, that was probably what had me in the discussions more than anything. Write code, pause, check in on discussion, repeat.
What I'm doing now, actually, only tonight I'm just trying to scrape the rust off my C chops, which were never very good to begin with.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
One of the dirty secrets with iPhone development is that Apple has made the development tools so fast and so fun that the process is incredibly addicting, you can get so much done so quickly compared to any other embedded development environment I've used. It's been the most fun I've had programming in my career.
The down side is that rapid software development and the slow pace of IRTrad evolution in general are fundamentally in conflict.
I think the relatively minor skirmishes about my apps are just a preview of much bigger blowouts in the future. Just wait until backup bot apps show up for sessions that leverage the sort of thing Bryan has been working on and are actually robust and reliable enough to do serviceable backup when there isn't a backup player available, or when truly low latency high quality audio conferencing over mobile broadband becomes widespread and you can have geographically dispersed sessions, creating huge opportunities for those who live in areas where there isn't a good session scene.
We live in an age where there is enough raw computing power on portable devices to do things that border on magic and were only the realm of science fiction a few years ago. Combine that with ubiquitous mobile and fixed wireless broadband and some very interesting things become possible.
It's going to get very interesting and some people are going to be very unhappy with where things may lead. There is no stopping progress, and those that recognize that early and have the commitment to the fundamental integrity of the music and the understanding of the technologies will be those best suited to shape the future while the rest grouse about how things were better in the past.
I'm sure similar transitions have occurred in the past, the introduction of mainstream adoption of recorded music was a hugely disruptive event, but opened up the music to a much larger audience, even within Ireland itself.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Let me put in my two unwanted cents (US, since it might be worth more temporarily....ahem)
I think this is absolutely awesome man. Especially the whole Uilleann app. Sadly, I can barely afford new strings for my fiddle, let alone an iPad doohickey. But I'm looking at this as a very serious way of finding out if I actually have a semblance of a chance of eventually playing the pipes without going out, buying a half set, and then being out 3K bucks.
Fair winds to ya dude, and keep up the awesome work.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
True true. Although, I'd admit, it'd be fun to have one for the Box ... even if it's just to fiddle about on a "real" two row instead of the kiddie one row I bought at a toy store lol.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Well, Eósaph, nice of you to lecture everybody on how this board should be run. Remove every self-serving thread on this forum, and it would be looking mighty thin indeed.
If they try to play at at your session, then whine about it. Otherwise you might just skip the thread instead of trying to decide what everybody else wants to read.
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I second that: if you don't like it, Eosaph, be a bit more considerate and try to understand that not everyone shares your opinions. Keep it up, Michael. You know enough about this music for me at least to value your contributions.
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Brilliant... people throwing their dummies out! it always makes a thread much more fun. I've got no interest in concertina apps but I have followed this thread avidly.
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I'd reckon that what many people find unsettling about these 'apps' is they run on consumer electronic devices - the sort of things that are in many ways the antithesis of the acoustic instruments that we mostly play. That doesn't make us Luddites - I'm as happy as anyone to take advantage of modern technology but I like to play music to get away from all that.
Sure one can choose to ignore these threads and I mostly do now but I think it's fair enough for Eósaph to lay down a marker and say what I would guess many people here instinctively think..
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Hey Padraig, leoj. Cool idea about the fiddle thing!
Perhaps it would have to be a combination of ap for the left hand and Wii for the bowing...
So, Mr Eskin? You up for that? tee hee.
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I think it's hilarious that people are even concerned with Michael advertising his apps in here. Remember now... we're talking Irish trad music and instruments... not exactly the most lucrative market. I bet if anything he'll just break even at best. But at the end of the day I think he's doing it for his own enjoyment and sharing it in here with the few people that can relate to it. Try to relax and have some fun guys... it's just trad music... not Lady Gaga or Madonna.
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"Just wait until backup bot apps show up for sessions that leverage the sort of thing Bryan has been working on and are actually robust and reliable enough to do serviceable backup when there isn't a backup player available"
I was all set to be cranky about this, and then I thought it through.
You mean, a backer with an off switch.
I'll take two, please.
(as for the banning of the app info - think of it as liberating you to experience thesession.org in full... go get in an argument with Michael Gill or something)
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Michae, I think that the technology is great but If some one is going to want to learn the concertina or any instrument they will make time to go and practace the real thing...or buy the real thing
I can see it being a bit of craic but I wouldn't spend money on it
"The down side is that rapid software development and the slow pace of IRTrad evolution in general are fundamentally in conflict"
im my opinion it's not that people that are intrested and like ITM are slow to accept this type of technology, there just really is no need for it, the only app I know of which could be of any benifit is the tuner app, which pointless to download if you already own a tuner
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
"those that recognize that early and have the commitment to the fundamental integrity of the music and the understanding of the technologies will be those best suited to shape the future while the rest grouse about how things were better in the past. ",
"I'm sure similar transitions have occurred in the past, the introduction of mainstream adoption of recorded music was a hugely disruptive event, but opened up the music to a much larger audience, even within Ireland"
-A hugley disruptive event, yes it has been cited as the main reason for the decline in regional style of music in Ireland but it preserved tunes, its spread Irish music across the globe, it gave young musicians something to aspire to!
but im sorry Michael but there really is no benifit from this app only a bit of enjoyment, I want your opinion - can convence me otherwise?
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
What a truly Orwellian turn. A developer of digital versions of traditional Irish instruments shares his work on a website dedicated to the discussion of Irish traditional music; is rudely attacked; replies with restraint -- and is subsequently barred from posting further. Huh.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Obviously, Michael's not been barred from posting further. He's been asked not to continue his series of commercial postings, which is in line with ordinary politeness on a discussion forum.
I think you missed a step in your read-eval-print loop.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
One man's meat is another man's poison...I personally don't own an iPhone, nor have a phone that can run apps. (My phone just makes phone calls--imagine that!) But I find the updates of his ITM instrument-related apps fascinating.
Spoiler alert--Confession: I secretly harbor a desire to someday learn the concertina and (shock) the pipes. Would that I had the greenbacks and the time to learn said instruments! But someday, I intend to add those instruments to the ones I already play. Would Michael's apps come in handy? Sure they would. Would I purchase said apps at this time? Not likely. Am I *offended* by his posts? NO! I find them fascinating and informational. Nobody HAS to read every post word for word to the bitter end. Just read the Subject line and if it's not for you, move on to another post that suits your fancy. Life's too short to get worked up over such trivialities. Save your p*ss and vinegar and vitriol for more blatant and recurring abusers of this fine mustard board (you know--the ones that cause such fine contributors to stop posting due to the repetitive petty arguments the abusers continually engage in).
On a tangential note, I see many players at sessions now have adapted to using and relying on (quite heavily I might add) apps which will look up the dots/abcs/midi and name of the tune for you after playing several seconds worth into the phone's microphone. The app links directly online to the session.org and Norbeck's databases to pull up potential tune matches.
Another app transforms your phone into a mp3 recorder! Gone are the days of cassette recorders sitting on a table merrily transferring sound waves onto ferrous oxide coated cellophane! Now there's only phosphorescently glowing iPhones with Neumann microphone icons merrily capturing same sound waves.
Yet another app will tell you where you were (geographically--which session) when you played such and such tune.
The possibilities for such apps are only limited by our imaginations. But having mentioned the above apps, I have seen a large portion of my session-mates embrace the apps technology into their daily (and session) routine. Therefore, I applaud you Michael for your trailblazing work. While not necessarily everyone's cup of tea, your work has much merit.
Now, if you could only invent an app that does my practicing for me!!!
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Imagine how many people, who would never check out Michael's apps before, are now doing that just from the protests on this thread. It may not be so many people, but it is the sort of thing which, I suspect, gets picked up on other forums. Any press is good press.
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I don't care at what level he's been stopped from posting - no new apps threads, no comments on this one, whatever ... I still find that wrong. I have been very interested to get updates on Michael's work. I will try and make myself look at his website instead. But I tend to forget to do such things. It was great to be reminded here, and a public service. A genuine shame to stop that.
Still, this thread has smoked out those whose opinions I'll know from now on are not worth give any respect.
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I have no interest at all in Michael's experiments, but have never had any problem with his postings, in fact, I have mostly ignored them. If anything, I was bemused by his enthusiasm in bringing high tech to a music that is so 'un-tech.'
There is enough bandwidth for all of us in the world, cut the guy a break!
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JWalkert~
Methinks he was just being snarky. You would be too it you'd just been told by the moderator you could no longer post about (fill-in-the-blank) subject matter.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Well, Sorry to hear about that Michael, your threads never bothered me either, and they did seem relative to the site subject, even if it was just a way to remind people of ITM when they are on their Iphone, that is actually supporting new people to learn. What a shame........
But I guess bitching and moaning about everything is part of Irish Tradition to! Ha!
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Is it unlike a luthier or pipemaker posting a “hey, look what I made” thread? Any more offensive than someone posting a Suttner c#/g# concertina for sale?
Here we have these long discussions about the future of the music, it’s place and relevance to our evolving world, and when a long-standing member posts examples of some his explorations in this area he’s accused of crass commercialism (hahaha… still chuckling over that one) and told to “leave us alone.”
I have several of Michaels apps for iPhone. Got them for _free_ thanks to links he’s graciously posted. Personally, I don’t have much use for them, not being a pipe or concertina player. They’re curiousities, and something for my 4 year old to play with. But they look and work great, and are obviously a labor of love.
I have no problem with someone not liking what Michael does. And I guess I appreciate the passion and the protective sensibilities that some people have for this music. What really troubles me is that Michael has always come across as a knowledgable, level-headed person. His response to flames has always been calm and reasonable. So it seems odd that he’s apparently been told to lay off.
And, uh, Michael – if you WERE to make a farting concertina app, I would buy that one.
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I do get that sense a line is being drawn in the mustard. For what it's worth, Michael, I don't support the censorship of anyone on this site regardless of my own views. I recognize Jeremy must use his authority in certain instances, this is clearly not one of those. Enough though with my freedom of expression for MustardTradLand. I do have a criticism about this route for *progress*
They wrote apps for regulators & I said nothing, concertinas & not a peep from me, etc. & so forth. I thought,"nothing can ever replace the experience of playing an open holed flute." Then I went on YouTube to see the latest applications for the legendary I-Phone. There, for the 1st time, I saw people playing harmonicas & even ocarinas. I laughed a bit, thinking how inexpensive the real instruments are compared to a new I-Phone. Surely they should be using the technology to learn concertina. Think of the savings ( 99¢ vs. $6,000) I dread the fact it is only a matter of time before the development of the I-Flute. It will be six-keyed & look just like a Blackwood Grinter. With the money I save, perhaps I may update my soundcard.
I went looking for my original comment which I'm assuming Jon Kiparsky is referring to. I was hoping to respond on that discussion thread. Unfortunately it was posted on the ill-fated "How Does it Work" thread. It went
*POOF*
so, for the time being, there is no rule, from me at least, regarding what anyone else chooses to read. For myself, I read through the longest of threads as many times as my stomach can stand, because I find fleeting bits of wisdom. That, & I hope to learn from the mistakes of others so I don't have to keep repeating history. What I enjoy coming across is when someone is able to say so much in so few words. This is rare, but it does happen on this board.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Well... Jeremy has once again censored the abused in favor of the abusers... par for the course. As for iPhones... I don't have one yet... I'm waiting for them to perfect the tele-transportation app.
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Hi, I'm a stranger to these parts, but was looking for talk about Michael's cool new apps and chanced in. I'm vastly amused by the ker-fuffle.
He's done awesome work with his new applications and given new musicians (or for that matter old ones) the chance to try something new, something educational, and perhaps something valuable for nominal cost if one owns an apple thingy - in a sense he's made them a tiny bit richer. He's _right_, obligated even, to tell folks about it. The posting has nominal cost to the readers of this forum - the subject line is clear and easy to skip, yet could benefit some people.
i suspect the vehement reaction - far out of proportion to the alleged crime, some critics - is due to other reasons. E.g. perhaps heartfelt belief that the purity of a "real" instrument is not to be sullied by the availability of a "fake".
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Have you all forgotten that when this board and its anti-commercial policy were first put on the internet, things like the Apple app store and IPhones didn't exist? Using the Mustard Board's anti-commercial policy to prevent guys like Michael Eskin from posting about the cool, Irish music related apps they've made is like shooting a cranefly with a machine gun. It's overkill, unnecessary, and while the thing might be annoying to some people, it's completely harmless. I guess Bryan isn't allowed to be posting updates about his Tunepal program, either. Too bad. This board is the best online way to pass information on to large numbers of Irish musicians.
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I’m glad I vented and think there was a need for it.
With the exception of “Leave us alone” I stand by what I said; it was, and is, how I feel, however illogical or daft my reaction to apps on this board might seem.
Someone said “Don’t read it if you are not interested” but obviously I feel a little bit stronger than that. They stick out like sore thumbs like something that just does n’t belong amongst the tune I.D’s, the newby questions and the “banjo for sale”’. So, it’s not really about marketing either. I don’t believe that the reason for Michaels ban on app posts is purely about marketing. It might be because innovative computer software on a trad site makes the site look a little ridiculous.
I freely admit, and make no apologies for, having romantic notions about this music - and apps don’t come into it. But that’s me. ...and a few others.
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I see both sides of this discussion. I certainly don't think Michael is 'marketing' his apps here as much as 'sharing'. And if you're into that sorta thing what better place to share it? I don't have a use for any of that stuff and personally don't like it.However,"having romantic notions about this music" and then going on an internet chat site to discuss it and then complain that the guy talking about ipod apps is ruining your notions seems a bit absurd.
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" It might be because innovative computer software on a trad site makes the site look a little ridiculous."
Um, what? You're posting your complaints on the INTERNET. You've probably texted your pals about coming to an amazing session on a mobile phone. You probably watch videos of people playing Irish music on YouTube. I bet you even have music stored on your computer in Mp3 format, or even worse, an iPod!
Too much technology!!!!! Ruining the beautiful music that should only ever be played in a shed with no heating, water, or electricity, by the light of the fire and using the cattle you have to bring inside for warmth. Nooooooooo!!!!!! Aughhhhhh!!!!!!!
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" It might be because innovative computer software on a trad site makes the site look a little ridiculous."
This is, of course, silliness. It would be great to see actual discussion of the software. I'm not so interested in the app side of things, but I've got Duggan's thesis on my shelf, and I've been reading it over, trying to make sense of some of what he's doing, to see if I can apply any of it to an idea that's been kicking around in my head for the last ten years or so.
I'd love to see some discussion of how some of these things are done, because I'd learn something.
Repeatedly posting adverts of the software's availablity without any further content, however, is ranklesome. Just as the Journal of Music postings would be annoying if there weren't an actual link to some actual content in there.
It's the difference between posting "teacher available" and posting a discussion about teaching some aspect of The Music. So, once again, my objections have nothing to do with whether the music should be played in a shed or a shoe shop - It's about reasonable use of the site, period. If it promotes some discussion, I'm for it. If it just occupies space without adding anything, I'm against it.
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That last post was directed at Eosaph rather than Jon. I still think the attach on Michael was unwarranted and he should be able to post threads about his app if he wants. That said, I think Jon's reasons for disliking it are way less ridiculous than Eosaph's.
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Hey, come on now Eòsaph's been playing about nine months now, why shouldn't he put Michael in his place. You could always go here for your lessons Eòsaph http://www.tradlessons.com
Does any one have a recording of " iPad, Ní neósainn cé hí " ?
C'mon Joseph, at one point you're saying the forum should not have something which may or may not involve an exchange of money (Michael has posted freebie links) & at the same time having apparently no objection to someone posting an instrument for sale. How long before you decide T-shirt slogans cannot be uttered in MustardLand? Now you're riding rough shod over software, on a site created by a software geek. Might be a bit more convincing if you are posting on a fifteen year old computer, with dial-up. Please tell me you are.
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Silverspear -Your idea of romantic must be different from mine; playing in a cow shed isn’t part of it but trad music on trad instruments is.
Bogman – Thanks- that’s 8 months and loving it. Let me know how long I need to play before I can post an opinion.
random-humour- banjo for sale (private sale) or any other trad instrument, is of interest because it is a trad instrument.
On the OP- without picking it to bits, rationalising it out of recognition. It’s how I felt and feel about it stupid absurd fickle ironic upsetting whatever there it is.
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"Way less ridiculous" - I'll take that.
Ben - haven't tried the newst latest. What's the source code look like? (come to think of it, I don't even know what sort of framework one uses for app development... what machine are you compiling to? Is it some sort of VM? or is there an underlying Unix-ness to it all, like the mac? I assume there are libraries to access the accelerometer and the touch screen and all that... I suppose I'd be more interested if I had an ip-type device...)
(heh, here's irony for you - my C/python/perl machine is a Dell Latitude that's at least fifteen years old, probably more like 20. A cli install of Ubuntu runs like a dream on it, it's a great coding machine)
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Okay, so you find playing trad music on trad instruments (like a banjo??) romantic. What does that mean?
So what if someone with different ideas and priorities than you (shockingly, even in trad music, people have different opinions... weird, huh) writes software that emulates concertinas, uilleann pipes, or whatever. So don't download the bloody app or the go to the website. This isn't rocket science.
I hope you don't own an electronic tuner, a CD player, any Mp3s, or a computer.... Oh, wait...
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Smiley face @ bogman - might just do that
Silverspear - no.... its just the warm fuzzy feeling, the lift I get when I hear the first few notes of a tune. I know its hypocritical compartmentalising aspects of life and being protective about keeping those things you care about ..separate. Logically speaking its nonsense I suppose but emotionally it makes perfect sense to me.
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Hugs for everyone then? C'mon that's no way to end an argument here Eòsaph m' boy!
Funny this started out so ugly but ended nicely, while so many other discussions start out nicely and end with several people banned. Fascinating site this.
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It hasn't ended nicely as far as I can see. Michael still can't provide useful information to people who are interested because of one person who doesn't even know what a "traditional instrument" is. Ignorance and stupidity triumphs again.
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For Eòsaph:
Hypothetically, if a new member asks for an online tutorial, or anything about a software application is Michael Eskin forbidden from responding? From your perspective.
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"Logically speaking its nonsense I suppose but emotionally it makes perfect sense to me."
Right, so because it makes perfect emotional sense to you -- and only you because if you read this thread, you'll find a lot of people thinking you were out of line -- Michael should be barred from posting about his apps. You're one guy who has been playing the music for eight months and you can now dictate what's right and wrong about it. Fantastic. I wish I'd been that enlightened after eight months of playing.
EB is right -- this thread hasn't ended nicely at all. :(
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I'm sorry, I didn't realise he'd been barred from discussing it or posting further. THAT'S LOUSY AND UNFAIR.
Michael if you develope a new app send me an email I'll be happy to let everyone on thesession.org know about it, just on principal.
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I predict the next time our young banjo players posts a discussion about banjo playing there will be an inordinate # of banjo jokes to follow.
It makes perfect emotional sense.
I think it only fair to paste in this gentle reminder of threads gone by ...
"I always try to give new posters the benefit of the doubt, and try to give them information rather than belittle their ignorance!"**
...
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
...
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What a load. I always do appreciate people deciding what I can read, and what I can't. I used to use my brain, but I guess that's getting too old-fashioned, and apparently way too much work for some people.
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@Jeremy: That is a reasonable way to seek middle ground and I certainly respect your decision. But, since this board has no way to push active discussions to the top at some point updating a previous post will mean only those watching the "New Comments" area of the discussions will spot the updates.
Might it be reasonable for you to put some sort of time frame on the new posts? Say 2 months or ??? It seems to me having such a plan in place might be useful in the future when a similar situation happens.
Thanks for your efforts for this board. I may disagree with your decisions from time to time, but I really appreciate your willingness to do what you feel is best for the board.
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Jeremy
Updating a previous thread might make sense if indeed it is an update to the previous thread. But if Michael suddenly brings out a flute app, I'd like to see a new mention under "New" than for him to add it as an update under say "Tenor Banjo app". Can we cut him some slack here?
I've refrained from commenting on this for some days, while I absorbed the general to and fro of opinion, but I now wish to state mine. The attack on Michael's post was non-sensical and unacceptably harsh. The kindest thing I could think to say about it was that it may have been alcohol fuelled. That it brought some other bullies out of the woodwork was disappointing, but perhaps inevitable.
Non-sensical, because traditions develop by spawning a range of options from which the group selects. The flute, the tenor banjo, the Irish bouzouki, the ABC notation system, email groups and forums, slow downers, and even new tunes are all examples. I don't know if Michael's apps have any likelihood of assimilation, but that doesn't matter. Maybe they'll be the inspiration for some other development. Maybe they'll just invite us all to think a bit about what we're doing and enjoying.
I'm frankly disappointed that the perpetrator of the attack has been allowed to get away with it, apparently without any limitation, while Michael has had his wings clipped. Punish the victim, reward the bullies doesn't sit well with me. Here in Australia, we look to our Irish heritage as the probable source of the Australian sense of "a fair go". I ask you to give Michael "a fair go", and to request the perpetrator to pen a fulsome apology for his unacceptable attack.
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I agree with cboody's last post - it doesn't make sense to hide an announcement about a totally new app under a months-old post about an unrelated app for a different instrument. It also means that most visitors would miss the announcements, even if they (like me) were genuinely interested in learning about new ones. As others have pointed out, the board already allows trad-related commercial postings. I agree with cboody that allowing a new discussion thread every month or two would be a good compromise, and would head off any future people who might try to abuse the ability to post commercially.
And I don't think Michael Eskin has been abusing the board - he seems to be lately only starting these threads when he has built a completely new app, and only doing one every few weeks. And, as several people have pointed out, he clearly labels them so that people who are uninterested in trad-related apps can easily avoid these threads. (I also share in the puzzlement over why such people don't in fact avoid these threads).
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Jeremy wrote: "But I did ask Michael to update existing threads on his apps rather than creating a new discussion each time."
That would be a reasonable solution IF one could choose to display threads ordered by the time of the last comment, OR if members could tag and easily display threads they wanted to watch for future updates.
Maybe other people manage their reading differently, but when I review Discussions I start on the first page and seldom go more than 2 or 3 pages deep looking for updates. If a thread that was started a month ago is updated, the chances of me seeing the update are slim to none.
The mechanics of the board almost compel people to start new threads instead of re-opening older ones. Maybe it's time to change that?
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Terry McGee writes: "I'm frankly disappointed that the perpetrator of the attack has been allowed to get away with it, apparently without any limitation, while Michael has had his wings clipped."
Get used to it, this is Jeremy's apparent MO, unfortunately.
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Now that I go back and read Jeremy's message to me, yes, that is exactly what he said, that I should update existing threads.
I've been in this crazed state for a few months coming up with many completely different and unrelated apps that instead of using the discussion boards at all, I'll just take advantage of the links feature available on the board. Since I generally always post a video of a new app on YouTube, if you're interested in what I'm doing, I suggest the best way is to subscribe to the Tradlessons YouTube channel, and when something new comes out, you'll know.
The structure of the board does seem to favor recent activity and not so much ongoing discussions, instead I've been offered a Google group to use for discussion of what I and like-minded are working on, that makes sense to me as a more appropriate and workable venue on many levels, the least of which is ability to insure civil and non-anonymous discussion.
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On Chiff and Fipple, the policy is that I (and anyone else who is doing anything even remotely commercial) can post one new thread a month, and the threads are clearly prefixed with "CP" for commercial post.
If thesession.org were to adopt a similar policy, and combine that with a simple setting in user preferences to show or hide CP threads, that might allow the best of both worlds.
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Reading this thread, you’d be forgiven for thinking that every other instrument at a session was an ipad. Try taking one along to your next session and playing along. The reception you’d get would be similar to the one I’m getting here.
And no-one is banned! Hallelujah. Michael will still post about his apps and I’ll shake my head and still think it’s a nonsense. The show hide CP threads sounds like a good idea.
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Unless you hide CP posts and the instrument of your dreams comes up for sale just at the moment you can convince yourself it's affordable - which is when most of us spend extravagantly I would think.
Nobody is going to start playing one at a session Eòsaph, it for a bit of fun. Only the most naive would try. I'm not a techno geek myself but I did find Michaels app posts very interesting. They weren't offensive in any way and you do have the option of reading the thread title before opening the discussion.
There are many, many threads that really are totally useless but nobody really complains because what harm do the do?
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I shake my head and think a lot of stuff on here is nonsense. so what? So I look a things that might be of interest. What a waste of time to focus on the things you dislike. Best to ignore them and move on.
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Michael, from my experience, with Google groups*, I think they can be great. It's obvious there needs to be more options (including some in a different setting & context) for a few of the 10s of thousands of members in MustardCity. At the same time it is very cool to witness the growing pains of this still young site.
*Like anything, some of those groups fall by the wayside. I have been involved in only a handful of them. When they work something like a close knit community it can be just the thing.
Bogman, yes! The title tells you exactly what the OP, & hopefully the discussion, is about.
Yesterday I was looking through the links & trying to suss out which category apps software might be placed in. The list of categories is .... dysfunctional ... Relax Jeremy, we can find a workaround. Here are Michael Eskins' links from his History tab; http://www.thesession.org/links/index/search?member_id=12799
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Still young site. Heh. I've been reading this site for more than ten years, since it was a tune-of-the-week site with Jeremy posting old warhorse tunes from time to time. When I started reading this site, the other resources out there for trad tunes were basically a few static tunebooks (Richard Darsie's tuneweb, Richard Robinson's site, Henrik Norbeck had a pretty un-navigable one, there were a few others). There was also ceolas.org and I think chiff and fipple was in existence at that point.
Darsie's site seems to have gone. Robinson's is still in existence, says it was last updated in 2007 and looks like it did in 1997. Oh, and the tune links all seem to be dead, call that one dead. Norbeck's site says it's last updated in 2005... need I go on? The mustard board is a)the oldest surviving tunebook site I can find and b) the only serious trad discussion forum I can find. (granted, I haven't searched the USENET hierarchy for rec.arts.music.irish or whatever it might be, but USENET isn't really the place to go for the newest latest, is it?)
As for tens of thousands - I think you'd be hard put to find tens of dozens of active members. Server logs would give you an idea of how many lurkers there are, but active participants are probably about 100, plus or minus. If 500 unique members have posted in 2010, I'll be very surprised. (I suppose we could even count the sock puppets like "MusicScienceGuy" above - not fair to count a pretend person, but what the hell)
However, more options would be a good idea. The idea of using benevolentoverlord groups to manage some of the functions expected of a group like this seems a good one.
There's also the idea of a monthly roundup of members' trad-related commercial activities. This could include Michael's apps, McKnowall's bongos, people who have CDs for sale, what have you.
Plenty of good ideas to be had there, if anyone really wants to address the problems rather than just kvetching.
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Another possible workaround is to use the links feature on the site to link to discussions inside of thesession.org itself. I'll have to give that a try.
I cannot think of a single person I know, who plays Irish music, that has not at least read through a couple of discussions on this forum or else used one of the other features. However, most of them are not members & one does not even own a computer. I have often met people who are completely new to Irish music & they tell me about this site ~ http://thesession.org Though, to be honest, I never, never, never recommend it to newbies. I hope no one is shocked.
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Ben - I need not point out that a high percentage of a very low number is still a low number. It would be rude to scrape the site mechanically and tedious to do it by hand, so I don't have the exact numbers, but I would be astonished if there were 500 different people who had posted comments since the beginning of 2010. I'd be willing to bet that people who have posted more than a handful of times would number closer to 100 than 500.
I have no way of guessing how many lurkers there are - 5 or 6 to 1 (as suggested in the thread you linked to) sounds fair, but that would still put the total population in the high hundreds to low thousands.
I could be wrong, I'm going on pretty impressionistic stuff, but this feels like a group of about a hundred. I don't know if I could name more than thirty posters if I sat down and really thought about it.
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So, it begs the question, if Jon's numbers are even remotely close, why would the world's most active website dedicated to Irish traditional music have such incredibly small numbers of active posting users, compared with, for example Facebook, where if you're like me, each of us on there probably have 400 or so friends, most in the genre. It tells me that people don't feel comfortable participating on this board for whatever reason.
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Eòsaph, you said, "Try taking one along to your next session and playing along. The reception you’d get would be similar to the one I’m getting here." But Michael was never advocating playing these things at sessions. This is called a straw man argument; you're misrepresenting what Michael says in a way that you think will be easily dismissed... like setting up a scarecrow only because it will be so easy for you to knock down since you've failed to knock down Michael's actual position.
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I have to disagree - I don't think it's a matter of people feeling uncomfortable posting here. It's been the same in every online forum I've been in.
The group dynamics are interesting. I'll have to take some time and write out what I'm thinking so it makes sense (when I'm not actually working, maybe) but the nutshell is - I think there's a natural limit in the range of about 100 of people posting on a given forum at a given time (say, over a given 6-month period).
One of the limiting factors would be a simple reluctance to answer a question that's already been answered. Once you have a certain number of people, regular readers and knowledgeable, you approach a certainty that any question posted will be answered within a short time frame, which means that in a large group, the regular readers will tend to crowd out the irregular readers.
That's probably the most interesting one, because it's pretty insoluble by normal means. You can't really un-answer the question, and reputation in these groups typically derives from giving good information well. So once there's a core of people giving good information well, it's difficult to become reputable, and then you've got a stratification.
I'm going to have to think about this a little more, but it's very interesting. Thanks for putting the question, Michael.
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I would say the lurkers outnumber poster by at least ten times your estimate Jon. Almost every single trad musician I know lurks round this site and I only know of two or three of my acquaintances who actually post.
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Jon, I <NEVER> suggested the 10s of thousands of members were lining up to actively contribute. Thank goodness, we'd never have time to pop a fresh bowl of popcorn. But seriously, sessions are grand & that is why we play. Take a deep breath & just say, "there is life outside the yellow background light."
Now without even trying I can list 100 members whose username I recognize. That is just what is in my head. Looking over the past 4 pages of new discussions (40 discussions beginning, June 3rd) Premiereflute is the only one who has submitted 2 discussions. Out of those 39 I recognize less than 1/2 of the names.
Here's one way to calculate the numbers, unless Jeremy updates the statistics on one of those threads I linked ...
... Posted by Jeremy August 12th 2007
" ... So the number of members actively contributing (if you count any kind of comment as a contribution) is: 6410"
I'm not sure when Jeremy began counting ... but if you say about 8 years (at that time) ... then 400 members posting one comment in 6 months. By extrapolating; those numbers suggest roughly 350 members posting at least one comment since the beginning of 2010. Those are any comments, not just those in the general discussion forum.
I don't do FaceBook. I was hooked into a few months ago. But last month I sussed out how to completely delete my account.
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I just received this apology from Joe, who I gather is Eòsaph. He said it was OK for me to post it here, which I think would be valuable. I very much appreciate his response.
Michael
I did send this earlier but I'm unsure whether it got through.
Its a bit late and probably unwelcome but here it is anyway.
I apologize for the outburst on session.org a few days ago. It was unprovoked stupid crass rude and hurtful. I have no excuses. I am genuinely sorry for the upset I have caused and also regret the inconvenience you have had as a result. I normally am a fairly decent chap but that night I was n't. My pride has made this apology so late but I hope not too late. If you wish to put this on the session.org feel free. I realize some other members of the sight were also upset but there are also others who enjoy the upsets. That is why the apology is sent to you.
I would be grateful if you could acknowlegde this email.
I wish you well.
Joe McHugh
-------------
And my response to Joe:
Hi Joe,
Thank you for the apology! What is your name on thesession.org I'm assuming you are "Eòsaph"?
Really, no hard feelings, I've dealt with much worse in the past on this and other matters around IRTrad.
One of the things that is so wonderful about this music is that people are passionate about it on so many levels. While we might not all agree on what we're passionate about, ultimately, we share a similar commitment to sustaining the music for those who will come after us.
Cheers and I am sorry for any upset I may have caused you as well,
Michael
--------------------
Hopefully, we can put this to bed now. I'll be more sensitive about where and how I post. I hope that we all learned something from this exchange about human nature and the pitfalls in assuming anything about other's motivations on internet message boards...
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Yes, thanks Joe, and Michael for responding graciously.
But we still have one more item of business don't we? Clarification of how and how often arguably commercial announcements can be made? Otherwise Michael is left wondering how to draw attention to his forthcoming and eagerly awaited "Hammond Organ for iTM iPod" app.
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FYI, I am not a sock puppet. 8) I am a serious developer of jammers, a new musical instrument that Michael used as a model in creating three of his apps.
Google me if you like. My intent is to make pianos seem as old and quaint as harpsichords. ;)
Ken.
PS I glad the feud is over.
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I did think of a scenario where someone shows up from out of town, & happens to find a session. The peripatetic tune player recognizes one of the players. Going over to say hello, there happens to be an empty chair. An invitation is given to play a tune.
Stranger in town: "Thanks mate, but unfortunately I don't have my instrument.
Mate: "No worries, the iPad's in my bag. It's OK ~ help yourself."
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I have never seen a board more full of whinny little bitches. If you don't like Mike's stuff, don't post. It is as easy as that. But it is also very easy to be someone hiding behind the internet acting like an asshole. I guess people don't have anything else better to do here(like learn some music). I really don't do that stuff because I don't have the money for it, but it does seem pretty cool. Quit complaining and get a life.
More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Hi y'all,
I have the day off, so I'm having some fun this morning pushing the limits of technology...
Here's a demo video where I'm playing my upcoming HexJam "Jammer-style" concertina app on two iPads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS9f67gTd3E
Even though its an iPhone/iPod Touch app, it scales nicely to the iPad zoomed up 2X!
More info at:
http://www.tradlessons.com/HexJam.html
Cheers,
Michael
# Posted on June 4th 2010 by Michael Eskin
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I come here to get away from all that sh*t. So its a no from me not interested. Your like someone bigging up the new square wheel and no I havnt read your post but I know what your about and its not traditional irish music. Its about furthering your i.t. endevours and I 'm sure I won't put you off but if you're into creating apps then create apps you certainly have a gift for it but why waste it on a product that is already decades in the making and with traditional emotive connections with people. Are you just trying to hack people off? I know you play and fair play but but this isnt the way it can't be a helpful tool its another instrument. This site is about traditional Irish music. Do you peddle your apps on thrash metal sites? Look at the market for rock band games surely that is more lucrative. Leave us alone.
# Posted on June 4th 2010 by Eòsaph
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Hey, come on , Eósaph, that's, at best, over harsh. Michael's all right, and I reckon his stuff is interesting, and even informative from a trad point of view. Not that I particularly want an i-phone (or pad), but it's things like Michael's neat Apps and Skooter's neat Tunepal thingie that might make me get one. I honestly doubt Michael's in it for the money, btw, so that missile is somewhat off the mark, I reckon.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by ethical blend
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Yes I do find it interesting and there are many site on the web I can go for interesting stuff but I choose to come here.(smiley face) (I have no emoticoms maybe Michael can help me) but this is about trad irish and I'm sure there are plenty of other types of music sites that will benefit more from Michaels stuff.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Eòsaph
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Michael Eskin can't you just make a website and put it in your profile then we can choose to visit your little app when we choose to and not have it given a fortnightly update on the discussions boards of this site?
Your last 5 discussions submitted are:-
More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans... June 4th 2010
For some a dream, for others, your worst nightmare May 18th 2010
Uilleann piping apps for the iPad May 3rd 2010
Having some fun with the iPad April 15th 2010
iPad Apps for Traditional Music
Enough now please....
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by I ♥ Dow
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Michael is upfront about what those threads involve. I wish more discussions used such clear titles. Besides, he is a MacSpeakingAppWritingDeveloperJunkie, if anyone has yet to suss out the obvious;
http://www.appstorehq.com/michaeleskin-24231/developer?
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
DJF ...
found this related clip ... Muiñeira de Poio / Muiñeira de Ourense - Liam O' Flynn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I46PEE6i3ts&feature=related from one of Michael's earlier ... yawn... YouTube examples ...
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
There's nothing wrong with what Michael is doing.
You don't like it, fine. I don't see the point in trying to control whether he posts about it or not.
There's plenty of stuff to ignore on this board, no need to be rude about the things you don't like.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by iTrad
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What's that RH? - punishment for having a pop at Michael?That's harsh. I'm sure he's up for it. He's marketing. I know it and I'm sure he does too. And in my opinion Michael you can take your crap elsewhere.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Eòsaph, my past 2 comments were for D.J.F. So I am not sure how to respond to your question, "What's that RH?"
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
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And I am not sure how to respond to your past 2 comments RH...
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by I ♥ Dow
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I agree, plenty of stuff to ignore on this board, as evidenced by the responses in this thread...
If you don't like it, there's plenty of internet out there for you to explore.
Some people find what I do interesting and useful.
And yes, since this is essentially a 4-octave Hayden concertina with a shiny skin, it does directly relate to ITM, I hear from many players who are interested in the possibilities with the Hayden layout, this gives a very easy way to explore that instrument.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
"He's marketing. I know it and I'm sure he does too. And in my opinion Michael you can take your crap elsewhere. "
Respond with your gut.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Eosaph, that's how you think internet boards should be run?
"Respond with your gut?" Who's gut? Yours? Mine?
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
x post
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Eòsaph
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Yeah your gut - this is about music and how you feel about it. That's gut. You're on a discussion board.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Eòsaph
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Fair play, D.J.F. no worries.
Joseph, I read your earlier post, & aside from your panting angst you definitely don't approve of Michael Eskin posting what you consider advertisements. If so, the only recourse you really have, beyond letting Michael know exactly what you think he should do, is tell Jeremy what you think should be the best policy on such discussions.
Typed the above before your most recent post, Joseph*. Frankly, I wish this site had a "for sale" section ~ what do you think? Once again, talk to the webmaster. As far as I can tell Jeremy has decided that Michael can post threads about his apps.
*now about 3 total
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
And your gut and mine are clearly not in agreement. But apparently, you don't have room to have a reasonable discussion outside of a very narrowly defined set of parameters about what is and is not related to this music.
I'm interested in developing very low cost tools that people can carry in their pockets to help them practice and learn instruments without spending more than couple of bucks.
Lots of people enjoy what I'm doing and see the value. You don't. I have no problem with that, but I'm not going to stop the conversation just because it doesn't agree with your gut.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
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I get your thing and respect your efforts but not here. Here, its crap.
People come here looking for stuff about something that poets struggle with only to come across some bloody app saying "here learn quicker".
I don't know much but I know that is bullsh*t
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Eòsaph
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So, Eosaph, go read other threads, I'm sure there is plenty of other discussions that you approve of and don't consider bullsh*t.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
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Oh, and don't give me that "I get your thing and respect your efforts" cr*p. But you don't get to decide what does and does not get discussed on this board, anymore than the fact that I'm not particularly interested in hurdy gurdys mean that they have no place being discussed here. Like you said its a discussion board, and you should go find discussions that you are interested in participating in rather than expressing your upset over those that don't meet your narrow view of what should or should not be open for discussion here.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
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Eòsaph... take a deep breath, dude... no one is forcing you to read this thread or respond to it... always remember to take your meds.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Phantom Button
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Michael - I think everyone here gets the point. You make doohickety things that have pictures of concertina keyboards on them, and they make noise. Congratulations.
I guess if you're going to post the same single message over and over again, this is better than some you could choose, but it's getting a bit old at this point. Surely if anyone had a use for such a thing here, they know about it now, don't they?
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
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Ok I was being polite.
Convince me and every one else that you are not a salesman with thoughts of financial gain on a music forum.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Eòsaph
Welcome to tonights' wacky antics.
Dude, you left polite way behind, before you even fired up the internet pipeline.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
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Sheesh! Spoken like folks who are so 'disinterested' that they haven't even bothered to see what he's actually done. If you aren't interested, don't buy one. Simple.
And FYI, seems a lot of folks *are* finding those apps interesting and even useful. Go figure!
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by anniemcu
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Time for bed.x
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I'm wondering what we'd be saying if he were posting, say, repeated announcements of his album, that it's available. And you can buy it at iTunes. And, oh, it's available. And yes, you can buy it. And it's got music on it. And on, and on.
Enough already. We know about the damned app, give it a rest.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
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If you think I'm getting rich selling IRTrad apps, you've got to be kidding. Its a niche of niche of niche. I'm happy if the apps pay for the development systems I have to buy to make them.
Bryan isn't getting rich off his app development efforts either, so your "you're just in it for the money" tack is completely self-serving, designed to trigger one of your "gut" reactions in like-minded others so they can feel justified piling on.
My motivation in this is the enjoyment in sharing some interesting possibilities with other like-minded tech-savvy players like me who are interested in using technology to expand the possibilities for their learning and enjoyment of this music. At this point, I'm writing apps because players email and ask me to develop something they would like to experiment with, and I generally will. In the process I learn about some new concertina fingering system and make what I do available to everyone for just two or three dollars rather than having to spend thousands. In this case, for HexJam, in the end it was a great way to do a Hayden style concertina, just with shiny buttons, I thought that was pretty cool and something that other concertina players (I gather you aren't one) might be interested in seeing a live demo of what was possible.
If what I'm doing doesn't interest you, or fit into your world view of what is and is not related to IRTrad, again, there's plenty of other discussions here and elsewhere that would make you much happier than fighting with me on this board, because I not backing down, ever.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
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Jon, there isn't "the damned app". When I did the Anglo concertinas, the English Concertina players asked for an app, so I did a series of English concertinas based on their request. Now some Hayden style players asked me to do this crazy Hayden-based jammer thing, so I did it. If you're into these styles of concertinas, we'd be having a different conversation. Then there are the Uilleann piping emulator apps like Uilleann and Uilleann-B for a completely different set of players.
Since I play both Anglo concertina and pipes, I'm going to naturally talk about what I'm working on with other like minded players of the same instruments. There isn't "the damned app", there's "all those damned apps".
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
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What are the luddies doing on the internet machine, anyway?
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by fidkid
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Oh for goodness sake! So Michael makes a product that relates in certain ways and mentions it here. How can anyone presume to know his motivations? They could vary from strictly money interests to total altruism. We don't know. He does. I belong to some hammered dulcimer groups where one player trying very hard to forge a career posts a message every time her group hiccups. I don't sit in judgment on her nor Michael. I figure someone might want to know about these things, so let the posters post.
As others have pointed out Michael's posts are no more off topic than many others out here, and much less off topic that many discussions end up.
Find something worthwhile to crab about...all of you.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by cboody
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Fine. But surely we all know where to go for pseudo-concertinas by now.
(I like the defiant tone, by the way - it's sort of cute, especially when nobody's fighting with you)
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
If I was only into it for the money, don't you think I'd have instead written and aggressively marketed a concertina app that makes pitched fart noises, not spent nearly all my weekends and nights for six months writing apps that only address a niche of a niche of a niche...
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Unknot your knickers Jon. I meant what I said. It is a colossal waste of time to extend this discussion.
Michael: I've spent years programming. I know that no one except a company drone could possible expect a lot of money. All I'm saying is you know your motivations and we shouldn't judge them.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by cboody
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cboody, thank you.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
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my pleasure
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by cboody
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I'm with fidkid. Where do these people get off insulting new technology on a website that didn't even exist 10 years ago?! Go turn off your electricity on your way out.
No wonder I left. F*cking b*llsh*t is right. Good on you, Michael, for putting up with it as long as you have.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by emily_bmore
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C - that was a cross-post, aimed at Michael's defiant tone. Yours, I'm afraid, is less cute - too grumpy. Work on it. Try a little Horatio At the Bridge, heroic pose stuff.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Hey whingers, learn to use the thread subject line as a filter.
If what you really need is a venue for the righteous anger you have been building up since someone stole your marbles/skipping rope, look for a forum that caters to this. If you regularly read threads which will make you angry, then perhaps you don't know your own needs. In this case start reading this paragraph again. If you don't know how to use the subject line as a filter, it is simple. Read the subject line and decide if you are interested in the subject. If you are, click on it. If you are not, don't.
And don't worry about threads which do not appeal to your idea of the forum. They won't use up all of the resources here, there is no practical limit to the number of threads which can be started.
I have a couple of Eskin's apps; they are fun. I think he hits the post/send button a little too often, but I don't have to read them, and mostly I don't. However I think he is a minor hero for extending what is possible, and while I think it unlikely, I wish he would get lots of rewards for it.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by cag
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Emily - read again. It's not the technology, it's the marketing.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
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I can appreciate Jon's position, I've been posting a lot about the apps the past few months, but its what I've been focusing on and I'm very excited about some of the results, since much of what I'm doing hasn't been done before on such a widely available platform as the iPhone/iPod Touch (and now the iPad), and I like sharing the result.
I'd love to talk about other subjects on the board besides apps, but pretty much, more often than not it seems no matter the topic, if it even slightly deviates from some people's reality, they come in and do to it exactly what happened in this thread, i.e. shut down all reasonable discussion. You can't talk about even the most basic thing, like whistle ornamentation, without the conversation turning into a religious war.
As a result, I'm not motivated much to participate otherwise anymore. I know far more people who have left this board for good than who are still on it.
So, I post info about what I'm doing with new apps that relate to IRTrad since there are still some people left here who are interested and invite people to come visit us here in San Diego to check out the local trad scene, that's about it.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
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Sorry to hear the numpties have got you off the board, Michael. Obviously you've got a lot of knowledge about the music, and you're obviously pretty good at talking about it - it would be nice to have you participating here.
"Numpties" - great word, that.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
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So gratifying to know the Dark Ages are still fashionable in some circles. Lovely! ttyl.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by emily_bmore
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Jon, honestly, my intentions aren't just to do what might be interpreted as marketing on thesession.org, its just what I've been up to since November, almost to the exclusion of everything else. I've definitely tried to limit starting new threads in the past few months to only every few weeks, and only when I've finished some significant new app. Similarly, on other boards, I limit new thread posts to once per month, which I don't think is unreasonable even if it were pure marketing, which it really isn't.
The good news is that right now, I don't have any other apps under development, so I will have a lot more time to get back into my daily practice regimen and maybe have something else to talk about besides shiny concertina variants.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
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Actually, Emily, Irish dance music comes significantly after the dark ages, but yes, this is a place where some pretty old stuff is fashionable. What brings you here, then?
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Looking forward to it, Michael. I've been pretty immersed in code since about October, just putting head above water now, so I know what it's like to come up out of that. Ironically, that was probably what had me in the discussions more than anything. Write code, pause, check in on discussion, repeat.
What I'm doing now, actually, only tonight I'm just trying to scrape the rust off my C chops, which were never very good to begin with.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
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One of the dirty secrets with iPhone development is that Apple has made the development tools so fast and so fun that the process is incredibly addicting, you can get so much done so quickly compared to any other embedded development environment I've used. It's been the most fun I've had programming in my career.
The down side is that rapid software development and the slow pace of IRTrad evolution in general are fundamentally in conflict.
I think the relatively minor skirmishes about my apps are just a preview of much bigger blowouts in the future. Just wait until backup bot apps show up for sessions that leverage the sort of thing Bryan has been working on and are actually robust and reliable enough to do serviceable backup when there isn't a backup player available, or when truly low latency high quality audio conferencing over mobile broadband becomes widespread and you can have geographically dispersed sessions, creating huge opportunities for those who live in areas where there isn't a good session scene.
We live in an age where there is enough raw computing power on portable devices to do things that border on magic and were only the realm of science fiction a few years ago. Combine that with ubiquitous mobile and fixed wireless broadband and some very interesting things become possible.
It's going to get very interesting and some people are going to be very unhappy with where things may lead. There is no stopping progress, and those that recognize that early and have the commitment to the fundamental integrity of the music and the understanding of the technologies will be those best suited to shape the future while the rest grouse about how things were better in the past.
I'm sure similar transitions have occurred in the past, the introduction of mainstream adoption of recorded music was a hugely disruptive event, but opened up the music to a much larger audience, even within Ireland itself.
Michael
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
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Let me put in my two unwanted cents (US, since it might be worth more temporarily....ahem)
I think this is absolutely awesome man. Especially the whole Uilleann app. Sadly, I can barely afford new strings for my fiddle, let alone an iPad doohickey. But I'm looking at this as a very serious way of finding out if I actually have a semblance of a chance of eventually playing the pipes without going out, buying a half set, and then being out 3K bucks.
Fair winds to ya dude, and keep up the awesome work.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Pádraig
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Hope to see a fiddle ap soon.. Thinking of all the money I'll save on strings!
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by leoj
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True true. Although, I'd admit, it'd be fun to have one for the Box ... even if it's just to fiddle about on a "real" two row instead of the kiddie one row I bought at a toy store lol.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Pádraig
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Well, Eósaph, nice of you to lecture everybody on how this board should be run. Remove every self-serving thread on this forum, and it would be looking mighty thin indeed.
If they try to play at at your session, then whine about it. Otherwise you might just skip the thread instead of trying to decide what everybody else wants to read.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by TaoCat
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I second that: if you don't like it, Eosaph, be a bit more considerate and try to understand that not everyone shares your opinions. Keep it up, Michael. You know enough about this music for me at least to value your contributions.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by gam
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Keep posting, Michael. *Of course* it's about trad, it's interesting work, and I for one want to hear about it.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by ethical blend
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Brilliant... people throwing their dummies out! it always makes a thread much more fun. I've got no interest in concertina apps but I have followed this thread avidly.
Cheers
.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Twiz
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I'd reckon that what many people find unsettling about these 'apps' is they run on consumer electronic devices - the sort of things that are in many ways the antithesis of the acoustic instruments that we mostly play. That doesn't make us Luddites - I'm as happy as anyone to take advantage of modern technology but I like to play music to get away from all that.
Sure one can choose to ignore these threads and I mostly do now but I think it's fair enough for Eósaph to lay down a marker and say what I would guess many people here instinctively think..
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by the wounded hussar
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
What Michael does is no worse than what the bands do when they advertise themselves here in threads. If that's OK then this is OK.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Hey Padraig, leoj. Cool idea about the fiddle thing!
Perhaps it would have to be a combination of ap for the left hand and Wii for the bowing...
So, Mr Eskin? You up for that? tee hee.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by john knoss
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I think it's hilarious that people are even concerned with Michael advertising his apps in here. Remember now... we're talking Irish trad music and instruments... not exactly the most lucrative market. I bet if anything he'll just break even at best. But at the end of the day I think he's doing it for his own enjoyment and sharing it in here with the few people that can relate to it. Try to relax and have some fun guys... it's just trad music... not Lady Gaga or Madonna.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Phantom Button
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Just clicked the link to the app.
LOL - in stitches in fact ...
Or should I say "in Breeches full of Stitches"
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
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Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Sheesh. All this snarling for one little iPhone app. Definitely not worth it.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
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Well, Eosaph and Jon, you win, I've been asked not to post any more info on my apps. Fair enough.
Those of you who have been supportive, thanks. If you're interested in future information, please periodically check the websites in my profile.
Cheers,
Michael
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
"Just wait until backup bot apps show up for sessions that leverage the sort of thing Bryan has been working on and are actually robust and reliable enough to do serviceable backup when there isn't a backup player available"
I was all set to be cranky about this, and then I thought it through.
You mean, a backer with an off switch.
I'll take two, please.
(as for the banning of the app info - think of it as liberating you to experience thesession.org in full... go get in an argument with Michael Gill or something)
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Suddenly, colors are brighter, food tastes better, and I am experiencing previously unknown inner peace and harmony...
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Michae, I think that the technology is great but If some one is going to want to learn the concertina or any instrument they will make time to go and practace the real thing...or buy the real thing
I can see it being a bit of craic but I wouldn't spend money on it
"The down side is that rapid software development and the slow pace of IRTrad evolution in general are fundamentally in conflict"
im my opinion it's not that people that are intrested and like ITM are slow to accept this type of technology, there just really is no need for it, the only app I know of which could be of any benifit is the tuner app, which pointless to download if you already own a tuner
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by premier
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Since I'm not allowed to post about the apps, and I can't respond to any comments, I suggest the thread be abandoned.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
"those that recognize that early and have the commitment to the fundamental integrity of the music and the understanding of the technologies will be those best suited to shape the future while the rest grouse about how things were better in the past. ",
"I'm sure similar transitions have occurred in the past, the introduction of mainstream adoption of recorded music was a hugely disruptive event, but opened up the music to a much larger audience, even within Ireland"
-A hugley disruptive event, yes it has been cited as the main reason for the decline in regional style of music in Ireland but it preserved tunes, its spread Irish music across the globe, it gave young musicians something to aspire to!
but im sorry Michael but there really is no benifit from this app only a bit of enjoyment, I want your opinion - can convence me otherwise?
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by premier
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
What a truly Orwellian turn. A developer of digital versions of traditional Irish instruments shares his work on a website dedicated to the discussion of Irish traditional music; is rudely attacked; replies with restraint -- and is subsequently barred from posting further. Huh.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by fidkid
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Obviously, Michael's not been barred from posting further. He's been asked not to continue his series of commercial postings, which is in line with ordinary politeness on a discussion forum.
I think you missed a step in your read-eval-print loop.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
One man's meat is another man's poison...I personally don't own an iPhone, nor have a phone that can run apps. (My phone just makes phone calls--imagine that!) But I find the updates of his ITM instrument-related apps fascinating.
Spoiler alert--Confession: I secretly harbor a desire to someday learn the concertina and (shock) the pipes. Would that I had the greenbacks and the time to learn said instruments! But someday, I intend to add those instruments to the ones I already play. Would Michael's apps come in handy? Sure they would. Would I purchase said apps at this time? Not likely. Am I *offended* by his posts? NO! I find them fascinating and informational. Nobody HAS to read every post word for word to the bitter end. Just read the Subject line and if it's not for you, move on to another post that suits your fancy. Life's too short to get worked up over such trivialities. Save your p*ss and vinegar and vitriol for more blatant and recurring abusers of this fine mustard board (you know--the ones that cause such fine contributors to stop posting due to the repetitive petty arguments the abusers continually engage in).
On a tangential note, I see many players at sessions now have adapted to using and relying on (quite heavily I might add) apps which will look up the dots/abcs/midi and name of the tune for you after playing several seconds worth into the phone's microphone. The app links directly online to the session.org and Norbeck's databases to pull up potential tune matches.
Another app transforms your phone into a mp3 recorder! Gone are the days of cassette recorders sitting on a table merrily transferring sound waves onto ferrous oxide coated cellophane! Now there's only phosphorescently glowing iPhones with Neumann microphone icons merrily capturing same sound waves.
Yet another app will tell you where you were (geographically--which session) when you played such and such tune.
The possibilities for such apps are only limited by our imaginations. But having mentioned the above apps, I have seen a large portion of my session-mates embrace the apps technology into their daily (and session) routine. Therefore, I applaud you Michael for your trailblazing work. While not necessarily everyone's cup of tea, your work has much merit.
Now, if you could only invent an app that does my practicing for me!!!
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by fiddlerdan
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Micheal Said:
"Since I'm not allowed to post about the apps, and I can't respond to any comments....."
It appears as though he has been barred from posting further on the current subject, which is probably what fidkid was talking about.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
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I took it to mean he's been asked not to post any more NEW apps-related discussions/updates.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by fiddlerdan
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Yes fiddlerdan that would explain:
"Since I'm not allowed to post about the apps...."
But:
"and I can't respond to any comments...."
What's that mean?
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Imagine how many people, who would never check out Michael's apps before, are now doing that just from the protests on this thread. It may not be so many people, but it is the sort of thing which, I suspect, gets picked up on other forums. Any press is good press.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
...
or as Michael said, "there is no stopping progress ..."
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I don't care at what level he's been stopped from posting - no new apps threads, no comments on this one, whatever ... I still find that wrong. I have been very interested to get updates on Michael's work. I will try and make myself look at his website instead. But I tend to forget to do such things. It was great to be reminded here, and a public service. A genuine shame to stop that.
Still, this thread has smoked out those whose opinions I'll know from now on are not worth give any respect.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I have no interest at all in Michael's experiments, but have never had any problem with his postings, in fact, I have mostly ignored them. If anything, I was bemused by his enthusiasm in bringing high tech to a music that is so 'un-tech.'
There is enough bandwidth for all of us in the world, cut the guy a break!
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
But Ben, what if they're following your rule, and avoiding any thread with more than n posts in it?
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
JWalkert~
Methinks he was just being snarky. You would be too it you'd just been told by the moderator you could no longer post about (fill-in-the-blank) subject matter.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by fiddlerdan
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Re: commenting further on THIS thread, one already underway before the moderator's admonition not to post further discussions on this subject.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by fiddlerdan
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Well, Sorry to hear about that Michael, your threads never bothered me either, and they did seem relative to the site subject, even if it was just a way to remind people of ITM when they are on their Iphone, that is actually supporting new people to learn. What a shame........
But I guess bitching and moaning about everything is part of Irish Tradition to! Ha!
Sorry that's the Scottish in me.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Is it unlike a luthier or pipemaker posting a “hey, look what I made” thread? Any more offensive than someone posting a Suttner c#/g# concertina for sale?
Here we have these long discussions about the future of the music, it’s place and relevance to our evolving world, and when a long-standing member posts examples of some his explorations in this area he’s accused of crass commercialism (hahaha… still chuckling over that one) and told to “leave us alone.”
I have several of Michaels apps for iPhone. Got them for _free_ thanks to links he’s graciously posted. Personally, I don’t have much use for them, not being a pipe or concertina player. They’re curiousities, and something for my 4 year old to play with. But they look and work great, and are obviously a labor of love.
I have no problem with someone not liking what Michael does. And I guess I appreciate the passion and the protective sensibilities that some people have for this music. What really troubles me is that Michael has always come across as a knowledgable, level-headed person. His response to flames has always been calm and reasonable. So it seems odd that he’s apparently been told to lay off.
And, uh, Michael – if you WERE to make a farting concertina app, I would buy that one.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by fidkid
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I do get that sense a line is being drawn in the mustard. For what it's worth, Michael, I don't support the censorship of anyone on this site regardless of my own views. I recognize Jeremy must use his authority in certain instances, this is clearly not one of those. Enough though with my freedom of expression for MustardTradLand. I do have a criticism about this route for *progress*
They wrote apps for regulators & I said nothing, concertinas & not a peep from me, etc. & so forth. I thought,"nothing can ever replace the experience of playing an open holed flute." Then I went on YouTube to see the latest applications for the legendary I-Phone. There, for the 1st time, I saw people playing harmonicas & even ocarinas. I laughed a bit, thinking how inexpensive the real instruments are compared to a new I-Phone. Surely they should be using the technology to learn concertina. Think of the savings ( 99¢ vs. $6,000) I dread the fact it is only a matter of time before the development of the I-Flute. It will be six-keyed & look just like a Blackwood Grinter. With the money I save, perhaps I may update my soundcard.
Cheers!
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
...
Jon, you are inferring something which I did not imply.
Cheers,
Ben
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
~
I went looking for my original comment which I'm assuming Jon Kiparsky is referring to. I was hoping to respond on that discussion thread. Unfortunately it was posted on the ill-fated "How Does it Work" thread. It went
*POOF*
so, for the time being, there is no rule, from me at least, regarding what anyone else chooses to read. For myself, I read through the longest of threads as many times as my stomach can stand, because I find fleeting bits of wisdom. That, & I hope to learn from the mistakes of others so I don't have to keep repeating history. What I enjoy coming across is when someone is able to say so much in so few words. This is rare, but it does happen on this board.
the only remnant I can find from yesterdays' field trip;
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AHKksSaU8DoJ:www.thesession.org/discussions
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Well... Jeremy has once again censored the abused in favor of the abusers... par for the course. As for iPhones... I don't have one yet... I'm waiting for them to perfect the tele-transportation app.
# Posted on June 5th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Well PB, you and I have disagreed from time to time, but I vertainly agree with you here. A sad decision seems to me...
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by cboody
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Hi, I'm a stranger to these parts, but was looking for talk about Michael's cool new apps and chanced in. I'm vastly amused by the ker-fuffle.
He's done awesome work with his new applications and given new musicians (or for that matter old ones) the chance to try something new, something educational, and perhaps something valuable for nominal cost if one owns an apple thingy - in a sense he's made them a tiny bit richer. He's _right_, obligated even, to tell folks about it. The posting has nominal cost to the readers of this forum - the subject line is clear and easy to skip, yet could benefit some people.
i suspect the vehement reaction - far out of proportion to the alleged crime, some critics - is due to other reasons. E.g. perhaps heartfelt belief that the purity of a "real" instrument is not to be sullied by the availability of a "fake".
Did I hit the mark?
;)
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by MusicScienceGuy
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Nope. Spam's annoying, that's about it.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Have you all forgotten that when this board and its anti-commercial policy were first put on the internet, things like the Apple app store and IPhones didn't exist? Using the Mustard Board's anti-commercial policy to prevent guys like Michael Eskin from posting about the cool, Irish music related apps they've made is like shooting a cranefly with a machine gun. It's overkill, unnecessary, and while the thing might be annoying to some people, it's completely harmless. I guess Bryan isn't allowed to be posting updates about his Tunepal program, either. Too bad. This board is the best online way to pass information on to large numbers of Irish musicians.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Sigh, Some days I feel like we can turn every discussion into an argument, if only we keep talking about it long enough...
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
This one had turned into an argument by the second post. I'm as narked by it as you. There was no need for it.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I’m glad I vented and think there was a need for it.
With the exception of “Leave us alone” I stand by what I said; it was, and is, how I feel, however illogical or daft my reaction to apps on this board might seem.
Someone said “Don’t read it if you are not interested” but obviously I feel a little bit stronger than that. They stick out like sore thumbs like something that just does n’t belong amongst the tune I.D’s, the newby questions and the “banjo for sale”’. So, it’s not really about marketing either. I don’t believe that the reason for Michaels ban on app posts is purely about marketing. It might be because innovative computer software on a trad site makes the site look a little ridiculous.
I freely admit, and make no apologies for, having romantic notions about this music - and apps don’t come into it. But that’s me. ...and a few others.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Presumably doesnt like any innovation, "having romantic notions about this music" - says the tenor banjo player.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Nonsense – I have a coffee grinder.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I see both sides of this discussion. I certainly don't think Michael is 'marketing' his apps here as much as 'sharing'. And if you're into that sorta thing what better place to share it? I don't have a use for any of that stuff and personally don't like it.However,"having romantic notions about this music" and then going on an internet chat site to discuss it and then complain that the guy talking about ipod apps is ruining your notions seems a bit absurd.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by shanty
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
" It might be because innovative computer software on a trad site makes the site look a little ridiculous."
Um, what? You're posting your complaints on the INTERNET. You've probably texted your pals about coming to an amazing session on a mobile phone. You probably watch videos of people playing Irish music on YouTube. I bet you even have music stored on your computer in Mp3 format, or even worse, an iPod!
Too much technology!!!!! Ruining the beautiful music that should only ever be played in a shed with no heating, water, or electricity, by the light of the fire and using the cattle you have to bring inside for warmth. Nooooooooo!!!!!! Aughhhhhh!!!!!!!
*runs screaming from the computer*
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
yes!
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
" It might be because innovative computer software on a trad site makes the site look a little ridiculous."
This is, of course, silliness. It would be great to see actual discussion of the software. I'm not so interested in the app side of things, but I've got Duggan's thesis on my shelf, and I've been reading it over, trying to make sense of some of what he's doing, to see if I can apply any of it to an idea that's been kicking around in my head for the last ten years or so.
I'd love to see some discussion of how some of these things are done, because I'd learn something.
Repeatedly posting adverts of the software's availablity without any further content, however, is ranklesome. Just as the Journal of Music postings would be annoying if there weren't an actual link to some actual content in there.
It's the difference between posting "teacher available" and posting a discussion about teaching some aspect of The Music. So, once again, my objections have nothing to do with whether the music should be played in a shed or a shoe shop - It's about reasonable use of the site, period. If it promotes some discussion, I'm for it. If it just occupies space without adding anything, I'm against it.
There, I'm done.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Are you the only poster on this thread who is not seeing the irony here?
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
That last post was directed at Eosaph rather than Jon. I still think the attach on Michael was unwarranted and he should be able to post threads about his app if he wants. That said, I think Jon's reasons for disliking it are way less ridiculous than Eosaph's.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Hey, come on now Eòsaph's been playing about nine months now, why shouldn't he put Michael in his place. You could always go here for your lessons Eòsaph http://www.tradlessons.com
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by bogman
Shenanigans...
Does any one have a recording of " iPad, Ní neósainn cé hí " ?
C'mon Joseph, at one point you're saying the forum should not have something which may or may not involve an exchange of money (Michael has posted freebie links) & at the same time having apparently no objection to someone posting an instrument for sale. How long before you decide T-shirt slogans cannot be uttered in MustardLand? Now you're riding rough shod over software, on a site created by a software geek. Might be a bit more convincing if you are posting on a fifteen year old computer, with dial-up. Please tell me you are.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
...
Fair play, Jon. How about that new Hex Jam concertina?
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
...
Oh, I forgot. We cannot go there.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Silverspear -Your idea of romantic must be different from mine; playing in a cow shed isn’t part of it but trad music on trad instruments is.
Bogman – Thanks- that’s 8 months and loving it. Let me know how long I need to play before I can post an opinion.
random-humour- banjo for sale (private sale) or any other trad instrument, is of interest because it is a trad instrument.
On the OP- without picking it to bits, rationalising it out of recognition. It’s how I felt and feel about it stupid absurd fickle ironic upsetting whatever there it is.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
"Way less ridiculous" - I'll take that.
Ben - haven't tried the newst latest. What's the source code look like? (come to think of it, I don't even know what sort of framework one uses for app development... what machine are you compiling to? Is it some sort of VM? or is there an underlying Unix-ness to it all, like the mac? I assume there are libraries to access the accelerometer and the touch screen and all that... I suppose I'd be more interested if I had an ip-type device...)
(heh, here's irony for you - my C/python/perl machine is a Dell Latitude that's at least fifteen years old, probably more like 20. A cli install of Ubuntu runs like a dream on it, it's a great coding machine)
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
semi-colon before stupid
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
How about 10 months
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by bogman
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
..........ooonly joking....
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by bogman
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Okay, so you find playing trad music on trad instruments (like a banjo??) romantic. What does that mean?
So what if someone with different ideas and priorities than you (shockingly, even in trad music, people have different opinions... weird, huh) writes software that emulates concertinas, uilleann pipes, or whatever. So don't download the bloody app or the go to the website. This isn't rocket science.
I hope you don't own an electronic tuner, a CD player, any Mp3s, or a computer.... Oh, wait...
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Smiley face @ bogman - might just do that
Silverspear - no.... its just the warm fuzzy feeling, the lift I get when I hear the first few notes of a tune. I know its hypocritical compartmentalising aspects of life and being protective about keeping those things you care about ..separate. Logically speaking its nonsense I suppose but emotionally it makes perfect sense to me.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Hugs for everyone then? C'mon that's no way to end an argument here Eòsaph m' boy!
Funny this started out so ugly but ended nicely, while so many other discussions start out nicely and end with several people banned. Fascinating site this.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by shanty
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
It hasn't ended nicely as far as I can see. Michael still can't provide useful information to people who are interested because of one person who doesn't even know what a "traditional instrument" is. Ignorance and stupidity triumphs again.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
For Eòsaph:
Hypothetically, if a new member asks for an online tutorial, or anything about a software application is Michael Eskin forbidden from responding? From your perspective.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Ok... let's see what else should be removed from the Yella Board in light of this recent policy banning Michael from talking about his apps:
1) any mention of upcoming concerts (unless they are free)
2) any mention of recordings (unless they are given away free)
3) any mention of instruments for sale
4) any mention of lessons where a teacher might be paid
5) any mention of music summer schools, Fleadhs, or other such events you have to pay to go to
6) any mention of session where money might exchange hands
7) any mention of anything where money might exchange hands
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
"Logically speaking its nonsense I suppose but emotionally it makes perfect sense to me."
Right, so because it makes perfect emotional sense to you -- and only you because if you read this thread, you'll find a lot of people thinking you were out of line -- Michael should be barred from posting about his apps. You're one guy who has been playing the music for eight months and you can now dictate what's right and wrong about it. Fantastic. I wish I'd been that enlightened after eight months of playing.
EB is right -- this thread hasn't ended nicely at all. :(
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I'm sorry, I didn't realise he'd been barred from discussing it or posting further. THAT'S LOUSY AND UNFAIR.
Michael if you develope a new app send me an email I'll be happy to let everyone on thesession.org know about it, just on principal.
Teacher's pet or what Eòsaph?!!!!
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by shanty
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
"if you develope a new app send me an email I'll be happy to let everyone on thesession.org know about it, just on principal."
Me too if shanty's not able to get online.
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I predict the next time our young banjo players posts a discussion about banjo playing there will be an inordinate # of banjo jokes to follow.
It makes perfect emotional sense.
I think it only fair to paste in this gentle reminder of threads gone by ...
"I always try to give new posters the benefit of the doubt, and try to give them information rather than belittle their ignorance!"**
...
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
...
** thanks Al!
# Posted on June 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
What a load. I always do appreciate people deciding what I can read, and what I can't. I used to use my brain, but I guess that's getting too old-fashioned, and apparently way too much work for some people.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by TaoCat
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Nobody's been barred from posting anything.
But I did ask Michael to update existing threads on his apps rather than creating a new discussion each time.
Relax.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Jeremy
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Great. Way to kill my righteous indignation, Jeremy
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by TaoCat
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Well, that clears that up, Jeremy!
OK, everyone, put away your pitchforks and extinguish those torches, nothing to see here, go about your business!
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Jeremy... I like the, "relax" ending; it's much gentler than your usual kurt, "bye" you always use.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
@Jeremy: That is a reasonable way to seek middle ground and I certainly respect your decision. But, since this board has no way to push active discussions to the top at some point updating a previous post will mean only those watching the "New Comments" area of the discussions will spot the updates.
Might it be reasonable for you to put some sort of time frame on the new posts? Say 2 months or ??? It seems to me having such a plan in place might be useful in the future when a similar situation happens.
Thanks for your efforts for this board. I may disagree with your decisions from time to time, but I really appreciate your willingness to do what you feel is best for the board.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by cboody
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Jeremy
Updating a previous thread might make sense if indeed it is an update to the previous thread. But if Michael suddenly brings out a flute app, I'd like to see a new mention under "New" than for him to add it as an update under say "Tenor Banjo app". Can we cut him some slack here?
I've refrained from commenting on this for some days, while I absorbed the general to and fro of opinion, but I now wish to state mine. The attack on Michael's post was non-sensical and unacceptably harsh. The kindest thing I could think to say about it was that it may have been alcohol fuelled. That it brought some other bullies out of the woodwork was disappointing, but perhaps inevitable.
Non-sensical, because traditions develop by spawning a range of options from which the group selects. The flute, the tenor banjo, the Irish bouzouki, the ABC notation system, email groups and forums, slow downers, and even new tunes are all examples. I don't know if Michael's apps have any likelihood of assimilation, but that doesn't matter. Maybe they'll be the inspiration for some other development. Maybe they'll just invite us all to think a bit about what we're doing and enjoying.
I'm frankly disappointed that the perpetrator of the attack has been allowed to get away with it, apparently without any limitation, while Michael has had his wings clipped. Punish the victim, reward the bullies doesn't sit well with me. Here in Australia, we look to our Irish heritage as the probable source of the Australian sense of "a fair go". I ask you to give Michael "a fair go", and to request the perpetrator to pen a fulsome apology for his unacceptable attack.
Terry McGee
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Terry McGee
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I agree with cboody's last post - it doesn't make sense to hide an announcement about a totally new app under a months-old post about an unrelated app for a different instrument. It also means that most visitors would miss the announcements, even if they (like me) were genuinely interested in learning about new ones. As others have pointed out, the board already allows trad-related commercial postings. I agree with cboody that allowing a new discussion thread every month or two would be a good compromise, and would head off any future people who might try to abuse the ability to post commercially.
And I don't think Michael Eskin has been abusing the board - he seems to be lately only starting these threads when he has built a completely new app, and only doing one every few weeks. And, as several people have pointed out, he clearly labels them so that people who are uninterested in trad-related apps can easily avoid these threads. (I also share in the puzzlement over why such people don't in fact avoid these threads).
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by fuzzygreen
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Jeremy wrote: "But I did ask Michael to update existing threads on his apps rather than creating a new discussion each time."
That would be a reasonable solution IF one could choose to display threads ordered by the time of the last comment, OR if members could tag and easily display threads they wanted to watch for future updates.
Maybe other people manage their reading differently, but when I review Discussions I start on the first page and seldom go more than 2 or 3 pages deep looking for updates. If a thread that was started a month ago is updated, the chances of me seeing the update are slim to none.
The mechanics of the board almost compel people to start new threads instead of re-opening older ones. Maybe it's time to change that?
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by boxist
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Terry McGee writes: "I'm frankly disappointed that the perpetrator of the attack has been allowed to get away with it, apparently without any limitation, while Michael has had his wings clipped."
Get used to it, this is Jeremy's apparent MO, unfortunately.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Now that I go back and read Jeremy's message to me, yes, that is exactly what he said, that I should update existing threads.
I've been in this crazed state for a few months coming up with many completely different and unrelated apps that instead of using the discussion boards at all, I'll just take advantage of the links feature available on the board. Since I generally always post a video of a new app on YouTube, if you're interested in what I'm doing, I suggest the best way is to subscribe to the Tradlessons YouTube channel, and when something new comes out, you'll know.
The structure of the board does seem to favor recent activity and not so much ongoing discussions, instead I've been offered a Google group to use for discussion of what I and like-minded are working on, that makes sense to me as a more appropriate and workable venue on many levels, the least of which is ability to insure civil and non-anonymous discussion.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
On Chiff and Fipple, the policy is that I (and anyone else who is doing anything even remotely commercial) can post one new thread a month, and the threads are clearly prefixed with "CP" for commercial post.
If thesession.org were to adopt a similar policy, and combine that with a simple setting in user preferences to show or hide CP threads, that might allow the best of both worlds.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Good idea.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by leoj
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Reading this thread, you’d be forgiven for thinking that every other instrument at a session was an ipad. Try taking one along to your next session and playing along. The reception you’d get would be similar to the one I’m getting here.
And no-one is banned! Hallelujah. Michael will still post about his apps and I’ll shake my head and still think it’s a nonsense. The show hide CP threads sounds like a good idea.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Unless you hide CP posts and the instrument of your dreams comes up for sale just at the moment you can convince yourself it's affordable - which is when most of us spend extravagantly I would think.
Nobody is going to start playing one at a session Eòsaph, it for a bit of fun. Only the most naive would try. I'm not a techno geek myself but I did find Michaels app posts very interesting. They weren't offensive in any way and you do have the option of reading the thread title before opening the discussion.
There are many, many threads that really are totally useless but nobody really complains because what harm do the do?
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by bogman
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I shake my head and think a lot of stuff on here is nonsense. so what? So I look a things that might be of interest. What a waste of time to focus on the things you dislike. Best to ignore them and move on.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by leoj
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Eòsaph, do you even read the board before commenting? I've <NEVER> advocated playing my apps in a session.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Michael, from my experience, with Google groups*, I think they can be great. It's obvious there needs to be more options (including some in a different setting & context) for a few of the 10s of thousands of members in MustardCity. At the same time it is very cool to witness the growing pains of this still young site.
*Like anything, some of those groups fall by the wayside. I have been involved in only a handful of them. When they work something like a close knit community it can be just the thing.
Bogman, yes! The title tells you exactly what the OP, & hopefully the discussion, is about.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
...
Yesterday I was looking through the links & trying to suss out which category apps software might be placed in. The list of categories is .... dysfunctional ... Relax Jeremy, we can find a workaround. Here are Michael Eskins' links from his History tab; http://www.thesession.org/links/index/search?member_id=12799
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Still young site. Heh. I've been reading this site for more than ten years, since it was a tune-of-the-week site with Jeremy posting old warhorse tunes from time to time. When I started reading this site, the other resources out there for trad tunes were basically a few static tunebooks (Richard Darsie's tuneweb, Richard Robinson's site, Henrik Norbeck had a pretty un-navigable one, there were a few others). There was also ceolas.org and I think chiff and fipple was in existence at that point.
Darsie's site seems to have gone. Robinson's is still in existence, says it was last updated in 2007 and looks like it did in 1997. Oh, and the tune links all seem to be dead, call that one dead. Norbeck's site says it's last updated in 2005... need I go on? The mustard board is a)the oldest surviving tunebook site I can find and b) the only serious trad discussion forum I can find. (granted, I haven't searched the USENET hierarchy for rec.arts.music.irish or whatever it might be, but USENET isn't really the place to go for the newest latest, is it?)
As for tens of thousands - I think you'd be hard put to find tens of dozens of active members. Server logs would give you an idea of how many lurkers there are, but active participants are probably about 100, plus or minus. If 500 unique members have posted in 2010, I'll be very surprised. (I suppose we could even count the sock puppets like "MusicScienceGuy" above - not fair to count a pretend person, but what the hell)
However, more options would be a good idea. The idea of using benevolentoverlord groups to manage some of the functions expected of a group like this seems a good one.
There's also the idea of a monthly roundup of members' trad-related commercial activities. This could include Michael's apps, McKnowall's bongos, people who have CDs for sale, what have you.
Plenty of good ideas to be had there, if anyone really wants to address the problems rather than just kvetching.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Another possible workaround is to use the links feature on the site to link to discussions inside of thesession.org itself. I'll have to give that a try.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Well, I guess, since its not a new thread, here's a slide show from my upcoming series Highland Piping-related apps, currently in final testing.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eskin/sets/72157624100397425/show/
I hope to have some videos available soon.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Active membership ~ 2003 - 2007
Re: How about some statistics about "The Session" and its members?
October 18th 2003 by Jeremy
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/2270/comments#comment42073
Re: Yellow Board Roll Call
August 12th 2007 by Jeremy
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14741/comments#comment304007
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
...
I cannot think of a single person I know, who plays Irish music, that has not at least read through a couple of discussions on this forum or else used one of the other features. However, most of them are not members & one does not even own a computer. I have often met people who are completely new to Irish music & they tell me about this site ~ http://thesession.org Though, to be honest, I never, never, never recommend it to newbies. I hope no one is shocked.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
...
I recommend sites with audio. MIDI doesn't count.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
"Eòsaph, do you even read the board before commenting? I've <NEVER> advocated playing my apps in a session."
Eòsaph commences with a classic straw man out of desperation.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
You'll have to explain that one to me.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Ben - I need not point out that a high percentage of a very low number is still a low number. It would be rude to scrape the site mechanically and tedious to do it by hand, so I don't have the exact numbers, but I would be astonished if there were 500 different people who had posted comments since the beginning of 2010. I'd be willing to bet that people who have posted more than a handful of times would number closer to 100 than 500.
I have no way of guessing how many lurkers there are - 5 or 6 to 1 (as suggested in the thread you linked to) sounds fair, but that would still put the total population in the high hundreds to low thousands.
I could be wrong, I'm going on pretty impressionistic stuff, but this feels like a group of about a hundred. I don't know if I could name more than thirty posters if I sat down and really thought about it.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
So, it begs the question, if Jon's numbers are even remotely close, why would the world's most active website dedicated to Irish traditional music have such incredibly small numbers of active posting users, compared with, for example Facebook, where if you're like me, each of us on there probably have 400 or so friends, most in the genre. It tells me that people don't feel comfortable participating on this board for whatever reason.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Here ya go Eòsaph .
http://futilitymonster.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/strawman.jpg
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by leoj
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
By the way, the resemblance to Mr. Button is purely coincidental.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by leoj
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Eòsaph, you said, "Try taking one along to your next session and playing along. The reception you’d get would be similar to the one I’m getting here." But Michael was never advocating playing these things at sessions. This is called a straw man argument; you're misrepresenting what Michael says in a way that you think will be easily dismissed... like setting up a scarecrow only because it will be so easy for you to knock down since you've failed to knock down Michael's actual position.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I have to disagree - I don't think it's a matter of people feeling uncomfortable posting here. It's been the same in every online forum I've been in.
The group dynamics are interesting. I'll have to take some time and write out what I'm thinking so it makes sense (when I'm not actually working, maybe) but the nutshell is - I think there's a natural limit in the range of about 100 of people posting on a given forum at a given time (say, over a given 6-month period).
One of the limiting factors would be a simple reluctance to answer a question that's already been answered. Once you have a certain number of people, regular readers and knowledgeable, you approach a certainty that any question posted will be answered within a short time frame, which means that in a large group, the regular readers will tend to crowd out the irregular readers.
That's probably the most interesting one, because it's pretty insoluble by normal means. You can't really un-answer the question, and reputation in these groups typically derives from giving good information well. So once there's a core of people giving good information well, it's difficult to become reputable, and then you've got a stratification.
I'm going to have to think about this a little more, but it's very interesting. Thanks for putting the question, Michael.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I would say the lurkers outnumber poster by at least ten times your estimate Jon. Almost every single trad musician I know lurks round this site and I only know of two or three of my acquaintances who actually post.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by bogman
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Jon, I <NEVER> suggested the 10s of thousands of members were lining up to actively contribute. Thank goodness, we'd never have time to pop a fresh bowl of popcorn. But seriously, sessions are grand & that is why we play. Take a deep breath & just say, "there is life outside the yellow background light."
Now without even trying I can list 100 members whose username I recognize. That is just what is in my head. Looking over the past 4 pages of new discussions (40 discussions beginning, June 3rd) Premiereflute is the only one who has submitted 2 discussions. Out of those 39 I recognize less than 1/2 of the names.
Here's one way to calculate the numbers, unless Jeremy updates the statistics on one of those threads I linked ...
... Posted by Jeremy August 12th 2007
" ... So the number of members actively contributing (if you count any kind of comment as a contribution) is: 6410"
I'm not sure when Jeremy began counting ... but if you say about 8 years (at that time) ... then 400 members posting one comment in 6 months. By extrapolating; those numbers suggest roughly 350 members posting at least one comment since the beginning of 2010. Those are any comments, not just those in the general discussion forum.
I don't do FaceBook. I was hooked into a few months ago. But last month I sussed out how to completely delete my account.
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I just received this apology from Joe, who I gather is Eòsaph. He said it was OK for me to post it here, which I think would be valuable. I very much appreciate his response.
Michael
I did send this earlier but I'm unsure whether it got through.
Its a bit late and probably unwelcome but here it is anyway.
I apologize for the outburst on session.org a few days ago. It was unprovoked stupid crass rude and hurtful. I have no excuses. I am genuinely sorry for the upset I have caused and also regret the inconvenience you have had as a result. I normally am a fairly decent chap but that night I was n't. My pride has made this apology so late but I hope not too late. If you wish to put this on the session.org feel free. I realize some other members of the sight were also upset but there are also others who enjoy the upsets. That is why the apology is sent to you.
I would be grateful if you could acknowlegde this email.
I wish you well.
Joe McHugh
-------------
And my response to Joe:
Hi Joe,
Thank you for the apology! What is your name on thesession.org I'm assuming you are "Eòsaph"?
Really, no hard feelings, I've dealt with much worse in the past on this and other matters around IRTrad.
One of the things that is so wonderful about this music is that people are passionate about it on so many levels. While we might not all agree on what we're passionate about, ultimately, we share a similar commitment to sustaining the music for those who will come after us.
Cheers and I am sorry for any upset I may have caused you as well,
Michael
--------------------
Hopefully, we can put this to bed now. I'll be more sensitive about where and how I post. I hope that we all learned something from this exchange about human nature and the pitfalls in assuming anything about other's motivations on internet message boards...
# Posted on June 7th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Nicely said on both your parts, Joe and Michael.
# Posted on June 8th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Now won't someone start some tunes...
# Posted on June 8th 2010 by leoj
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
What wonderful responses from Joe and Michael. How nice to see an acrimonious discussion calm down and come to an adult conclusion.
Thank you both!
# Posted on June 8th 2010 by cboody
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Yes, thanks Joe, and Michael for responding graciously.
But we still have one more item of business don't we? Clarification of how and how often arguably commercial announcements can be made? Otherwise Michael is left wondering how to draw attention to his forthcoming and eagerly awaited "Hammond Organ for iTM iPod" app.
Terry
# Posted on June 8th 2010 by Terry McGee
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Oooo, Terry, great idea. Naw, I'll stick to bagpipes for now...
# Posted on June 8th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
FYI, I am not a sock puppet. 8) I am a serious developer of jammers, a new musical instrument that Michael used as a model in creating three of his apps.
Google me if you like. My intent is to make pianos seem as old and quaint as harpsichords. ;)
Ken.
PS I glad the feud is over.
# Posted on June 8th 2010 by MusicScienceGuy
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Whew!
# Posted on June 8th 2010 by Terry McGee
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
How nice to log on this morning and see this row come to a friendly and mature end.
# Posted on June 8th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Wow. An emotional & intellectual rollercoaster with a tearjerker denoument.... The next round is on me! Nice one, Yellow Boarders.
# Posted on June 9th 2010 by emily_bmore
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I did think of a scenario where someone shows up from out of town, & happens to find a session. The peripatetic tune player recognizes one of the players. Going over to say hello, there happens to be an empty chair. An invitation is given to play a tune.
Stranger in town: "Thanks mate, but unfortunately I don't have my instrument.
Mate: "No worries, the iPad's in my bag. It's OK ~ help yourself."
# Posted on June 9th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Well done, lads!. Now, Michael, about that flatulent concertina app... Could you give it a Frank Edgley Bb layout?
# Posted on June 9th 2010 by fidkid
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I've been prodding Michael to write a "TubaPhone" app for months, but he just kinda looks at me funny when I mention it.
# Posted on June 9th 2010 by Jumper
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
Random – Or
Stranger in town: "Thanks mate, but unfortunately I don't have my ipad
Mate: "No worries, there’s an old fashioned fiddle behind the bar”
It’s the thin end of the wedge, the slippery slope I tell ye! ; )
Oh look. There’s me sense of humour. I wondered where it was.
# Posted on June 9th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I love a good mustard board group e-hug! I'm in!
# Posted on June 9th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
The HexJam app in the original video is now available on the iTunes App Store...
# Posted on June 12th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
I have never seen a board more full of whinny little bitches. If you don't like Mike's stuff, don't post. It is as easy as that. But it is also very easy to be someone hiding behind the internet acting like an asshole. I guess people don't have anything else better to do here(like learn some music). I really don't do that stuff because I don't have the money for it, but it does seem pretty cool. Quit complaining and get a life.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by pipersgrip
Re: More iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad Concertina-related Shenanigans...
A day late and a dollar short Johnny. Things have been worked through. Read ALL of the discussion.
# Posted on June 19th 2010 by cboody