Hi,
any advice or helpful tips from experienced people out there regarding this would be seriously appreciated.
I am a learner fiddle and guitar player. When I practice, I love to do at least 45 mins on each instrument each night, by the time I get into it and time flies you get so absorbed as you'll probably know! (Although to be fair I can easily do a couple of hours on each without realising it if I have nowhere else to be). I started intensifying my practice, really getting into doing both properly about this time last year, but after about a month I had to give up totally because I stupidly overdid it and got what I think was tendonitis, I basically couldn't move my left hand for about a month at least afterwards because the muscles were totally knackered. I was really stupid though, and started to also learn piano at the same time, which for someone quite new to these 3 instruments is a bit idiotic I realise (but I love my music....).
I left all my music for months, got carried away with other things in life, but just a week ago I came back to it and the minute I picked up my guitar for the first time I forgot how much I missed it.
Anyway, due to an up and coming family event, which I would love to be able to play my fiddle tunes I was learning at, I just picked up the fiddle again for the first time in all these months again. I only did about 30 mins then practiced my guitar for 10 mins but have had to give up right away because my left hand is hurting again, my knuckles are starting to feel all creaky etc again......
Is this a bad idea to be trying to learn these 2 instruments at the same time? Does anyone else have any experience of this, and should I maybe just be concentrating on 1 of them for 6 months or something to let my muscles build up strength? If so, from experience which would it be best to concentrate on first ( from the point of view of the types of muscles you build up etc)
Or do you have any good advice from experience that will allow me to still play these 2?
If I have to give up 1 of them, I'll probably just get a bodhran and start trying to learn that in the meantime, I've always wanted to learn it and it could keep me occupied in the meantime..(I've had a go on one recently and I started to pick it up quite quickly...). That wouldn't make things worse in another way though would it?
Thanks for reading this, I really appreciate any good advice,
thanks
Best thing to do is have a proper assessment by a Chartered Physiotherapist - he/she will be able to identify the affected muscle/tendon complex affected and teach you appropriate "eccentric" exercises ( a medical term ) to strengthen the area and remodel the collagen in the tendon. To be pedantic (!) what you describe is tendonopathy - this is what happens after the inflammation of tendonitis subsides - usually within the first couple of weeks of onset of pain.
Best of luck,
Mandolin player who doubles as a Chartered Physiotherapist.
45 minutes an instrument is nothing. You must be doing something wrong if it is hurting. And swapping instruments will help rather than aggravate the situation. If it starts to hurt, stop immediately: don't try to play through it. Take the advice of our learned friend above if you are in pain.
The first thing to know is that it can be very serious. Most people get over these things without lasting damage, but that's not always the case. So don't take it lightly.
Practicing by yourself, it's easy to play too intensely and to go way too long without a break. Ten minutes with no letup is a serious workout. If you practice for 45 minutes, you might need four or five breaks of one to two minutes. You'll make better progress and do less damage.
I would suggest you add stretching to your practice routine. While I don't think much of the way yoga is taught as a fad these days, there's certainly a set of simple stretches there that will be good for you - basically, you're going to be looking at the basic standing poses. Stay away from studios and the Yoga Inc nonsense, though, there's a lot of nonsense there. Remember the old rule: beware of any enterprise that requires a change of clothes.
Some simple physical exercise can be helpful as well - I find that pushups are a very good way to relieve tension in the shoulders from playing or (more often) from typing, and building up strength in your back will help you support the fiddle with less fatigue in the long run.
Last thing I'd put in here is check your posture. If you're hunching over for 45 minutes at a time, you'll feel it later on. If you sit up straight, with your head balanced over your spine, it'll help - the muscles in your back won't be holding up the weight of your upper body, so they'll be less tense.
Below is a clip I found on youtube the day before I called to schedule surgery for a bad case of DeQuevrains Syndrome in my right hand. I asked a friend who is a chiropractor to look at the clip and he said it might help me if I started out slowly and was sure to do exactly as in the clip and lift the weight back up with my opposite hand. I've been doing it three times a day with a very light (3 pound) weight and after only thee days I do see improvement. I still have pain but it is not nearly as bad. When I wake up in the morning my hand is not swollen and stiff like it used to be and today I didn't even take any pain medication. I have decided not to have the surgery as this seems very promsing.
I want to emphasize that the guy in the clip is NOT a health professional. Please have yourself evaluated by a doctor and find out what your condition is and if this exercise is right for you before doing it.
Fiddle shouldn't be a problem. It requires only very light pressure
on the strings. But it you're strangling the neck, then that could be
it. Piano shouldn't be a big deal either.
I'd say the guitar's doing it, if you're not a violin strangler,
especially if it has high action.
Holding a weight out at arm's length for an hour at a stretch might be doing something to make the shoulder muscles complain, I'd think. Depends where the pain is, but if it's under the right shoulder blade you're probably looking at a guitar problem. If it's centered on the left side, you might be dealing with a fiddle issue, or a fretting issue.
I can't answer about the guitar, but piano and violin shouldn't be causing the kinds of pain you describe. Serious students of the violin often practice for stretches of 5 to 8 hours without those symptoms.
I have mild carpal tunnel in both wrists from working on a computer, and when I play the fiddle I can go for hours without pain.
You are probably holding the instrument wrong and stressing your wrists. When you change to another instrument you're not giving yourself time to recover and you're adding to the stress.
To avoid further damage you really need to be seen by a professional - either a good teacher or, as mandomary mentioned, a physical therapist who specializes in musician's injuries.
You obviously love your music and it would be tragic if you caused yourself the kind of damage that would prevent your being able to play at all.
I agree with wolfhul. To me, the issue appears to be incorrect posture and/or instrument hold, and this is the sort of thing that should be sorted out by a good teacher face-to-face. Although a good physio may well deal with the immediate symptoms successfully that might not be effective in the long term unless the root causes are addressed by a knowledgeable teacher (even if it means going to a classical teacher!).
It's all to do with technique, that's all. You could be holding the instruments the wrong way, getting into awkward habits etc. It's definitely not how many instruments you play. I play guitar, whistle, fiddle and bodhran - so no worries there. I have learnt guitar and fiddle classically along with my folk and Irish music ,mainly for the technique - which is useful. A teacher will pick up on any problems and sort you out. It's always hard to relearn something but definitely worth it.
Also, though I don't play piano, I know that if you try and balance two tangerines on the backs of your hands whilst you're playing, it gets them into the right position, you'll learn where to place them and you won't get tendinitis.
I'd say start thinking about the action on your guitar. Most guitars have action that is set too high for me. It can be physically impossible for me to play some guitars that play just fine for somebody with larger hands. Also since I've been playing DADGAD I haven't had any gripping pains because bar chords are not needed (god I hate bar chords) and even the ones I do decide to use are easier to play because the string tension is just a hair lower than standard tuning. I still have a nylon string guitar tuned to standard because action and string tension aren't an issue with those types of guitars, and it's nice to go back to now and again.
basically standard tuning steel string dreadnaught guitars are not easy to play, think about how much grip strength you actually have, and think about using a drone tuning to eliminate the need for barring chords. Bar chords will Ef up your wrist if you don't actually have the strength to play them
Susceptibility to this kind of injury varies considerably. There are genetic factors, musculature factors, dietary factors, physical condition factors, fill-in-the-blank factors. Don't just assume that you should be able to play eight hours a day, even with excellent posture and technique. Lots of people are able to play that much, but your limit might be two hours or one hour. With possible rare exceptions, the people who do play for eight hours a day didn't just suddenly start doing that as adults. They started while their bodies were developing and gradually increased their endurance. They also take frequent breaks.
I don't mean to come down too hard on the negative side, but I think it's important to realize that the demands we put on our hands and arms can push our imdividual limits.
that youtube clip shows a guy doing eccentric exercises for one particular muscle group (the ones that produce radial deviation for anyone who is vaguely interested....yawn!) - So yes, they will work if that's the particular muscle group affected. And yes - posture/technique is key to have the proximal joints ( joints nearer to the trunk) in as neutral a position as possible i.e. spine, shoulder girdle, shoulder etc. If you get assessed by a physio ( a properly medically trained one - not the bucket and magic sponge variety ) he /she should cover all that. I'd strongly advise you to get it sorted - when these problems become chronic (long term) they are much more diffucult to treat successfully.
Now, back to the music - I'm not supposed to be in physio mode today.
Thanks for all that brilliant advice really appreciate it!
I left it for a week then tried my fiddle again, but this time I used my chin rest properly like you're supposed to (can never be bothered using it normally) and tried to correct my posture, and it honestly did work because I never felt anything in my hand at all after that. I really can't afford a teacher right now, although I will definitely bear it in mind for the future, and maybe even try to find a teacher on recommendation that I can use for a couple of months in the future at some point. I'm sure I can look up the internet to get advice on that in the meantime.
Also the point about guitar action - I hadn't even thought about that, but it does make total sense. A couple of weeks ago I had a go on someone else's guitar and noticed how much easier it was to play than mine ( I was drunk at the time and thought it was maybe just that!) but that's a serious point I think I need to look at. My guitar is just a standard Yamaha acoustic, is there any way you can change the action yourself or do you need to go to a specialist to get it done?
Developed tendinitis in my left hand & had it for years as a fiddler, being self-taught .... Got some tips later in life about holding the instrument properly, as in classical music f.i. A great help. But what really helped me out finally were the basic Ti-Chi stretching exercises one uses to warm up your arms, shoulders etc. - Nout
Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
Hi,
any advice or helpful tips from experienced people out there regarding this would be seriously appreciated.
I am a learner fiddle and guitar player. When I practice, I love to do at least 45 mins on each instrument each night, by the time I get into it and time flies you get so absorbed as you'll probably know! (Although to be fair I can easily do a couple of hours on each without realising it if I have nowhere else to be). I started intensifying my practice, really getting into doing both properly about this time last year, but after about a month I had to give up totally because I stupidly overdid it and got what I think was tendonitis, I basically couldn't move my left hand for about a month at least afterwards because the muscles were totally knackered. I was really stupid though, and started to also learn piano at the same time, which for someone quite new to these 3 instruments is a bit idiotic I realise (but I love my music....).
I left all my music for months, got carried away with other things in life, but just a week ago I came back to it and the minute I picked up my guitar for the first time I forgot how much I missed it.
Anyway, due to an up and coming family event, which I would love to be able to play my fiddle tunes I was learning at, I just picked up the fiddle again for the first time in all these months again. I only did about 30 mins then practiced my guitar for 10 mins but have had to give up right away because my left hand is hurting again, my knuckles are starting to feel all creaky etc again......
Is this a bad idea to be trying to learn these 2 instruments at the same time? Does anyone else have any experience of this, and should I maybe just be concentrating on 1 of them for 6 months or something to let my muscles build up strength? If so, from experience which would it be best to concentrate on first ( from the point of view of the types of muscles you build up etc)
Or do you have any good advice from experience that will allow me to still play these 2?
If I have to give up 1 of them, I'll probably just get a bodhran and start trying to learn that in the meantime, I've always wanted to learn it and it could keep me occupied in the meantime..(I've had a go on one recently and I started to pick it up quite quickly...). That wouldn't make things worse in another way though would it?
Thanks for reading this, I really appreciate any good advice,
thanks
# Posted on May 30th 2010 by eenymo
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
Hi,
Best thing to do is have a proper assessment by a Chartered Physiotherapist - he/she will be able to identify the affected muscle/tendon complex affected and teach you appropriate "eccentric" exercises ( a medical term ) to strengthen the area and remodel the collagen in the tendon. To be pedantic (!) what you describe is tendonopathy - this is what happens after the inflammation of tendonitis subsides - usually within the first couple of weeks of onset of pain.
Best of luck,
Mandolin player who doubles as a Chartered Physiotherapist.
# Posted on May 30th 2010 by mandomary
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
45 minutes an instrument is nothing. You must be doing something wrong if it is hurting. And swapping instruments will help rather than aggravate the situation. If it starts to hurt, stop immediately: don't try to play through it. Take the advice of our learned friend above if you are in pain.
# Posted on May 30th 2010 by gam
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
The first thing to know is that it can be very serious. Most people get over these things without lasting damage, but that's not always the case. So don't take it lightly.
Practicing by yourself, it's easy to play too intensely and to go way too long without a break. Ten minutes with no letup is a serious workout. If you practice for 45 minutes, you might need four or five breaks of one to two minutes. You'll make better progress and do less damage.
# Posted on May 30th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
I would suggest you add stretching to your practice routine. While I don't think much of the way yoga is taught as a fad these days, there's certainly a set of simple stretches there that will be good for you - basically, you're going to be looking at the basic standing poses. Stay away from studios and the Yoga Inc nonsense, though, there's a lot of nonsense there. Remember the old rule: beware of any enterprise that requires a change of clothes.
Some simple physical exercise can be helpful as well - I find that pushups are a very good way to relieve tension in the shoulders from playing or (more often) from typing, and building up strength in your back will help you support the fiddle with less fatigue in the long run.
Last thing I'd put in here is check your posture. If you're hunching over for 45 minutes at a time, you'll feel it later on. If you sit up straight, with your head balanced over your spine, it'll help - the muscles in your back won't be holding up the weight of your upper body, so they'll be less tense.
# Posted on May 30th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
Below is a clip I found on youtube the day before I called to schedule surgery for a bad case of DeQuevrains Syndrome in my right hand. I asked a friend who is a chiropractor to look at the clip and he said it might help me if I started out slowly and was sure to do exactly as in the clip and lift the weight back up with my opposite hand. I've been doing it three times a day with a very light (3 pound) weight and after only thee days I do see improvement. I still have pain but it is not nearly as bad. When I wake up in the morning my hand is not swollen and stiff like it used to be and today I didn't even take any pain medication. I have decided not to have the surgery as this seems very promsing.
I want to emphasize that the guy in the clip is NOT a health professional. Please have yourself evaluated by a doctor and find out what your condition is and if this exercise is right for you before doing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkMJ3YwRWR4
Best of luck
Mary
# Posted on May 31st 2010 by Antikhntr
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
Fiddle shouldn't be a problem. It requires only very light pressure
on the strings. But it you're strangling the neck, then that could be
it. Piano shouldn't be a big deal either.
I'd say the guitar's doing it, if you're not a violin strangler,
especially if it has high action.
# Posted on May 31st 2010 by Hup
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
Holding a weight out at arm's length for an hour at a stretch might be doing something to make the shoulder muscles complain, I'd think. Depends where the pain is, but if it's under the right shoulder blade you're probably looking at a guitar problem. If it's centered on the left side, you might be dealing with a fiddle issue, or a fretting issue.
# Posted on May 31st 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
I can't answer about the guitar, but piano and violin shouldn't be causing the kinds of pain you describe. Serious students of the violin often practice for stretches of 5 to 8 hours without those symptoms.
I have mild carpal tunnel in both wrists from working on a computer, and when I play the fiddle I can go for hours without pain.
You are probably holding the instrument wrong and stressing your wrists. When you change to another instrument you're not giving yourself time to recover and you're adding to the stress.
To avoid further damage you really need to be seen by a professional - either a good teacher or, as mandomary mentioned, a physical therapist who specializes in musician's injuries.
You obviously love your music and it would be tragic if you caused yourself the kind of damage that would prevent your being able to play at all.
Good Luck.
# Posted on May 31st 2010 by wolfhul
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
I agree with wolfhul. To me, the issue appears to be incorrect posture and/or instrument hold, and this is the sort of thing that should be sorted out by a good teacher face-to-face. Although a good physio may well deal with the immediate symptoms successfully that might not be effective in the long term unless the root causes are addressed by a knowledgeable teacher (even if it means going to a classical teacher!).
# Posted on May 31st 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
It's all to do with technique, that's all. You could be holding the instruments the wrong way, getting into awkward habits etc. It's definitely not how many instruments you play. I play guitar, whistle, fiddle and bodhran - so no worries there. I have learnt guitar and fiddle classically along with my folk and Irish music ,mainly for the technique - which is useful. A teacher will pick up on any problems and sort you out. It's always hard to relearn something but definitely worth it.
Good Luck
xxx
# Posted on May 31st 2010 by NiamhB
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
Also, though I don't play piano, I know that if you try and balance two tangerines on the backs of your hands whilst you're playing, it gets them into the right position, you'll learn where to place them and you won't get tendinitis.
xxx
# Posted on May 31st 2010 by NiamhB
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
I'd say start thinking about the action on your guitar. Most guitars have action that is set too high for me. It can be physically impossible for me to play some guitars that play just fine for somebody with larger hands. Also since I've been playing DADGAD I haven't had any gripping pains because bar chords are not needed (god I hate bar chords) and even the ones I do decide to use are easier to play because the string tension is just a hair lower than standard tuning. I still have a nylon string guitar tuned to standard because action and string tension aren't an issue with those types of guitars, and it's nice to go back to now and again.
# Posted on May 31st 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
basically standard tuning steel string dreadnaught guitars are not easy to play, think about how much grip strength you actually have, and think about using a drone tuning to eliminate the need for barring chords. Bar chords will Ef up your wrist if you don't actually have the strength to play them
# Posted on May 31st 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
Susceptibility to this kind of injury varies considerably. There are genetic factors, musculature factors, dietary factors, physical condition factors, fill-in-the-blank factors. Don't just assume that you should be able to play eight hours a day, even with excellent posture and technique. Lots of people are able to play that much, but your limit might be two hours or one hour. With possible rare exceptions, the people who do play for eight hours a day didn't just suddenly start doing that as adults. They started while their bodies were developing and gradually increased their endurance. They also take frequent breaks.
I don't mean to come down too hard on the negative side, but I think it's important to realize that the demands we put on our hands and arms can push our imdividual limits.
# Posted on May 31st 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
that youtube clip shows a guy doing eccentric exercises for one particular muscle group (the ones that produce radial deviation for anyone who is vaguely interested....yawn!) - So yes, they will work if that's the particular muscle group affected. And yes - posture/technique is key to have the proximal joints ( joints nearer to the trunk) in as neutral a position as possible i.e. spine, shoulder girdle, shoulder etc. If you get assessed by a physio ( a properly medically trained one - not the bucket and magic sponge variety ) he /she should cover all that. I'd strongly advise you to get it sorted - when these problems become chronic (long term) they are much more diffucult to treat successfully.
Now, back to the music - I'm not supposed to be in physio mode today.
The very best of luck,
# Posted on June 4th 2010 by mandomary
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
Thanks for all that brilliant advice really appreciate it!
I left it for a week then tried my fiddle again, but this time I used my chin rest properly like you're supposed to (can never be bothered using it normally) and tried to correct my posture, and it honestly did work because I never felt anything in my hand at all after that. I really can't afford a teacher right now, although I will definitely bear it in mind for the future, and maybe even try to find a teacher on recommendation that I can use for a couple of months in the future at some point. I'm sure I can look up the internet to get advice on that in the meantime.
Also the point about guitar action - I hadn't even thought about that, but it does make total sense. A couple of weeks ago I had a go on someone else's guitar and noticed how much easier it was to play than mine ( I was drunk at the time and thought it was maybe just that!) but that's a serious point I think I need to look at. My guitar is just a standard Yamaha acoustic, is there any way you can change the action yourself or do you need to go to a specialist to get it done?
thanks again
# Posted on June 4th 2010 by eenymo
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
Developed tendinitis in my left hand & had it for years as a fiddler, being self-taught .... Got some tips later in life about holding the instrument properly, as in classical music f.i. A great help. But what really helped me out finally were the basic Ti-Chi stretching exercises one uses to warm up your arms, shoulders etc. - Nout
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by fiddler2007
Re: Learning fiddle and guitar tendonitis
I would try Bowen Therapy (that's not a pun by the way), as well. Tai Chi and Qigong are amazing as well.
# Posted on June 15th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh