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Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Some session members(including myself) have previously made adverse comments about this practice which encompass anything from the rattling of shakey eggs to electric/electronic instruments or jazz instruments such as clarinet, trumpet etc.
My earliest experience of this was listening to old 78's by Jim Cameron's Dance Band where the Cornet was always heavily featured. I liked this(and still do) and it made Scottish Country Dance music sound almost interesting- although I didn't mind the better players like Jimmy Shand and Bobby McLeod either.
Nowadays, all varieties of instruments have been featured in traditional music recordings and live performances. I was wondering which of these experiments the members have considered to be the most successful and whether it can ever be appropriate to emulate this combination of different instruments in a session situation. Please discuss. )
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Hey, shaky eggs had their adherents, notably that fine and nuanced player, Daniel MacKay... *smirk*
Probably the most successful I've personally had is the simple standing string bass, when played by someone with good taste, which I realize isn't too out there. The mountain dulcimer wasn't too bad, but that may have been because, largely, they're so quiet that it would have been impossible for it to be intrusive. Hammer dulcimers have been mixed results - of course the success of ANY instrument, traditional or not, in a session is always dependent upon the player...
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I have never been to a session but I can tell you what new instruments I think work in ITM. If this is not what you're looking for, then please skip over my reply.
I agree with Zina about the string bass. It can add another whole dimension to the music, if it is played with moderation and not overdone. I also like the sound of the mountain dulcimer in trad. The cornet, however, Is totally out of place, in my opinion. Patrick Street has a guest cornet player on their newest album, Street Life, and it really doesn't seem to fit in. I like the sound, but not in ITM. And then I don't like bongos or djembes either, particularly if they are overdone. (e.g. Gaelic Storm)
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
On the string bass issue, there is a great tune on the most recent Slainte Mhath cd which has, what sounds to me anyway, like an electric bass playing the lead melody line. It sounds fantastic and I can't think why other people haven't used it more often in this way (or maybe they have and I just haven't heard.....)
Hard to play at speed I imagine but something to aspire to.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Brass instruments just weren't made for trad, were they? Despite the flugel horn (which, with the French horn are the nicest of the brass bunch by far) in that one Lunasa track (Dr Gilbert?).
But I must ask: anyone had any joy sticking a cello into the mix? Perhaps it wouldn't work for a session, but maybe in ensemble setpieces?
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I beleive Alasdair Fraser does like to play with cellists. I know he has cello workshops at his summer fiddle camp, Valley of the Moon. I personally don't mind the cello but it isn't really that great sounding.
Nick b -- electric bass playing the melody line seems a bit too much for me.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I think the track nick b is referring to sounds extremely cool. The bass player starts the track off solo before the rest of the band kicks in and it's well done IMO.
I was at a house session last week and a guy brought one of those Mexican marachi acoustic basses and it really added something unique to the mix.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Has anyone used a marimba in a trad band? For information, a marimba is like a xylophone with tremendous attitude, and it's big - you have to walk the length of the instrument to get from the bass to the top of the treble. I don't think you'd ever see one in a session, for one thing in the wrong hands it's capable of easily drowning out everything else, and another is that you need a truck and several strong bodies to cart the thing around.
The only reason I ask is that recently I was playing in an orchestra accompanying a virtuoso percussion student from the Royal Academy of Music in a performance of a very exciting concerto for the instrument (it's pretty good - Evelyn Glennie's recorded it).
Btw, "the cello ... isn't really that great sounding"? Now I really am upset (grump, grump
Trevor
Re 'Cello: Niel Gow (the elder or the younger, I forget which) composed and arranged, many tunes - including strathspeys and reels - for fiddle and Cello. In his day (C18th?? I was never good at history), the norm was presumably to play these tunes solo, or perhaps in unison. I see his addition of 'cello parts - perhaps influenced by the basso continuo in baroque orchestral music - on a parallel with the addition of piano, guitar, bouzouki and synthesizer accompaniments in th 20th century.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
IRT to marimba...it would certainly be fun to watch the faces as the roadies started muscling the marimba into the pub though, wouldn't it? Like some Candid Camera thing...
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Sorry, Trevor, just an opinion. Maybe I shouldn't even have said that. I have only heard it used in ITM once. It was probably just the way they used the cello that didn't strike me as very nice sounding.
BTW -- Greg, I should probably listen to the track with the bass solo on it before I decide that I don't like it. Didn't mean to jump to a conclusion there, it could be very nice sounding. Although, what one person thinks is nice, could sound horrible to another.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I think cello is particularly nice with fiddle. Both Alasdair and Iain Fraser play and have recorded with cellists. Harpsichord is also nice with fiddle for tunes that have a Baroque feel.
As far as sessions with celli are concerned--I've only played in one Scottish session and no Irish sessions with a cellist and many other instruments (harps, flutes, concertinas, etc). It sounded quite nice in that setting also, and was able to provide a low melodic or countermelody line in addition to traditional chordal accompaniment.
I think Mark O'Connor also combines fiddle with cello and bass (Edgar Meyer and Yo-Yo Ma).
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
The son of one of our bodhran players brought his cello to our session a couple of weeks back. He also fiddles, so he's worked out a few tunes on the big beast. They sounded fine, and we all joined in. That's a nice change of voice after weeks of nothing but six whining fiddles....
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Difficult question, what is traditional, which instrument is not acceptable? I have joined a nice session in Dingle where a Didgeridoo (or however it's spelled...) was played. And it sounds very harmonic. And what's about the brass arrangements on McGoldrick's "Fused"? Of course, it's not traditional, but very fine music with traditional roots.
ITM is a living tradition amd I think it's normal that modern or unusual instruments will find a place in ITM.
... sorry, I didn't introduce myself: I'm from Hamburg/Germany and read the discussions here for a while. I play piano accordion, bodhran and have just started with banjo.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Weclome out of lurkdom McFolker! Sounds like the Dingle digde'll do. I don't mind tht once in a blue moon, and not on every tune. This music sometimes begs for more of a low end, eh?
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Cello is definitely very cool, with such a lovely richness to the tone. There is a great cd by Abbie Newton with her playing on the cello. It has a really nice version of the new rigged ship / full rigged ship.
I think that one of ITM's strengths is its ability to evolve and adapt instruments - ie what other tradition has absorbed so many alien instruments such as banjos, mandolins, bouzoukis etc etc and yet made them its own.
Otherwise the tradition would probably be a load of bodhrans and flutes round the cave fire - and I know how much you would all enjoy that ) heh heh
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I mentioned this once before, but we had an autoharp player sit in on a session once and he fit in wonderfully. If you've never heard autoharp picked proficiently, you have no idea that that instrument left in your grandparents' attic can actually make music.
Like Zina's moutain dulcimer note above, the fact the autoharp isn't blaring loud like most brass and can blend well with other instruments is probably a key issue.
AND - if the player flat out understands ITM and is proficient in their instrument, they're much more likely to fit into a session. I'm sure we've all spent time with rhythmically challenged bodhran players, newbie whistlers with Susatos, etc...
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
As for the cello: Not too long ago, I heard Alasdair Fraser in concert with Natalie Haas on the cello.
Scottish music is IMO so much more incluenced by classical music and some of their slower pieces sounded just like baroque music - very nice but definitely different from ITM. But I absolutely loved what Natalie did for the faster tunes: she played some percussive riffs that just blow your mind away! Not at all what one usually associates with cello music. And according to Alasdair, the cello has been used in traditional Scottish dance bands previously.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Any instrument can work if it's in the right hands, or whatever body part is required. Trouble is, most players are note chasers so no matter what the instrument, it ain't gonna sound good.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Max, don't take it to heart! Note the little emoticon after my "grump, grump". Now if I were a viola player ... Btw, violas haven't surfaced on this thread yet. Mr Gill, where are you?
Trevor
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I love the viola in trad! Jesse Smith plays viola on Danu's albums "Think Before you Think" and "All Things Considered" and I'm not sure, but he probably plays it on his solo album too. (Can't remember what its called) It sounds really awesome.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I have played the cello on a couple of occasions in fiddle workshops when I was specifically asked to bring it along. In one of them someone had written a nice flowing bass counter-melody for Sheebeg and Shemore. It worked quite well on the cello.
Normally I'd never take my cello to a session, not least because the instrument needs a lot of playing room, and of all the instruments it seems to be the one that is most easily damaged. Also, I'd need prior preparation working with someone on a few tunes for it to be effective. Just turning up with a cello on the off chance would be a waste of time.
Trevor
Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Tommy Peoples plays the viola on one or two tracks of his album The Quiet Glen. Sometimes, after listening to that I feel tempted to take up the viola.
Cellists tend have an affinity for the viola - the tuning is the same but an octave higher, the tonal quality of the viola is closer to that of the cello than the violin, and some cellists find the spacing on the fingerboard easier to cope with than the closer finger spacing of the fiddle (and the cello and viola sections sit next to each other in orchestras). My cello teacher, a well-known pro cellist in his day also played the viola as an orchestral pro, but didn't turn his attention to the fiddle until he was 60. Elgar intended to write a viola concerto but never got round to it, but his famous cello concerto works very well as a viola concerto without any alteration. Elgar was delighted to conduct the first performance of it as a viola concerto.
Trevor
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I think I have a couple of Irish tradidional albums with cello on some tracks. One is a whistle album but the player's name eludes me now. I bought an old time album a few months ago which has a cello on some tracks and it's absolutely great. Here's a marimba playing Irish music. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/henle
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Whoo... I dunno about that. Marimba's a great instrument - I once wrote a rippin' piece for marimba and violin in the style of Khachaturian - but for trad it just seems out of place, especially on its own.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
The reason the viola works is because it fills a tonal space in between the strummers and the usual melody players. There is some beautiful tight harmony to be found in this usually empty area
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I first heard the 'cello used by a Scottish band called Ossian in the late 70s. They were superb and the 'cello really added to the mix. It was used primarily for the harmonies but occasionally took the lead on slow tunes to wonderful effect.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Who played cello in Ossian, Geoff? Billy played stand-up bass, but not often, and I don't recall George or John ever playing cello. If they did, it was a pure novelty. It was never a main feature of their instrumentation. Does it appear on any of their records?
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
John Martin is credited on at least three albums for playing cello
i.e Seal song, Dove across the water, and Borders. I don't have the very early albums to hand to check. Billy Jackson is credited for playing cello on the Contraband album(Ossian's predecessor).At that time, he played mainly bass/bass guitar.
I agree, Kenny, that it wasn't used often during their live performances although it features on recordings.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Just for giggles, I would humbly suggest perhaps a nykleharpa. Vasen, with Roger Tallroth, features this interesting instrument in their playing. Their latest album "Trio" has "Josephin's Waltz" (penned by Tallroth) and I found this music quite enjoyable. But what do I know, I enjoy listening to Eileen Ivers as well(could be construed as a very minor windup)!
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
The nyckelharpa can be heard to great effect on a Swedish Waltz which appears on an album called "Grass Roots" by The Old Sod Band (an Ottawa-based dance band that features member Ian Clark). It reminds me of the timbre of a viol da gamba - very sweet. The rest of the album is an excellent mix of Irish, Scotttish, Quebec and original dance tunes.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Steel drum player Andy Narrell(?) has recorded some Irish tunes on the ould pan. I remember he had a nice version of Morrison's jig, and some other stuff. Good playing, and well done arrangements, in a new-age-ey kind of way.
I once saw a black guy with dreadlocks in the Toronto subway playing Irish tunes on the bassoon. He did a really good job on the tunes, but the bassoon is much too quiet to work in a session.
I've also seen someone get kicked out of a pub in Dublin for playing the clarinet, but that may have been due to the musical content, and not the instrument. Or maybe they just had a thing about "Fir a Bhata"...
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
The string base is quite often used in Norwegian traditional music.
A nice and rather unorthodox substitute for a string bass player is an accomplished tuba player! I've had the pleasure of playing with good tuba players - and that works quite well. I have'nt seen many at ITM sessions, though. We do have an acoustic bass gitar player who has started showing up at sessions though, and this adds a nice dimension to the guitar strumming.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I was at a "fiddle fest"once where there was mostly Old Time music,but some ITM too,mostly thanks to me and this guy with a clarinet.He was not bad,considering.He also played a little whistle.
I really like cellos.I wouldn't want a cello in everything,but ocasionaly,I really like them.I saw Alasdair Fraser and Natalie Haas too, and she was so amazing.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
An interesting and exciting cd is "Turning Point" by the fiddle-cello duo Pete Cooper (fiddle) and Richard Bolton (cello), which shows how the two instruments can work and play together. Several of the tracks are arrangements of vigorous English trad tunes, one is American likewise, another is an arrangement of a Macedonian Oro in 13/8 (ok everyone, get your collective teeth into that!), and the remainder are compositions by one or the other of the duo. I'll try to get round to putting this cd into the Recordings section as soon as I can (this side of Christmas anyway - promise!)
Trevor
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Michael Robinson and Vicki Parrish over at Standingstones.net have got some great texts about the use of cello in trad, going back to virginel, spinet and viol days.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
NWG, I have experimented in the past with fitting up a fiddle as a viola (borrowed a viola C and pushed all the other strings up the instrument). It didn't work out very well because the C was so floppy and kept going sharp, as well as being too quiet. The other strings weren't bad, though. After a few days I reverted to normal stringing and returned the C to the lender.
A friend of mine who plays in a ceili band also plays classical viola professionally - no, she's not Mr Gill or BigDave . Her viola (a genuine one, of Belgian origin) is fiddle size in length but a lot deeper in the body and a little wider in the lower bout. It has a rich warm and powerful tone that belies its size. A local fiddle maker says the most important factor for such small violas is the choice of string. I'm not sure, but she may be using obligatos, which she also uses on her fiddle.
I've never used octave strings, and I would prefer to try them out on a shop fiddle first. If I were sufficiently impressed with them and could see a good reason for them I'd probably set up another fiddle (a 3rd!) with them on.
Out of curiosity I tried out one of those 5-string fiddles (with a low C) in my local violin shop. The tone was rather dull, but to be fair it was brand new and unplayed, and not strung up with top quality strings. More importantly, what would take a lot of getting used to would be the closeness of the strings to each other, an important consideration for me because I've got thickish fingers, and the contour of the bridge which was a lot flatter than what I'm used to. Again, for me the purchase of such an instrument would have to be justifiable, and I would demand a wider fingerboard, which would imply a wider neck, etc.
Trevor
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
One instrument that seems to crop up frequently in sessions nowadays is the Jukebox. Since it has no 'player' as such, it has no musical sensitivity whatsoever, completely ignoring the other players - and no amount of telling it to shut up, or telling somebody to shut it up, has any effect.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Just a thought, and it ties into other threads about 'who the session is for'. I was at a session the other night, where there was a young lady playing a saxophone. I've heard her before, and she's really good. She doesn't play anything she doesn't know well, and from the bar, she fits in brilliantly on the tunes she plays. It sounds like one of those 78s of those American Ceili bands (It was a big session - 8 flutes, 10 fiddles, boxes of various descriptions, mandolins, zouks, whistles - you name it, so it can take it).
The trouble is, the people sitting close to the saxophone are deafened and can't hear a note they are playing.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
just what qualifies as "traditional", anyway? If you want to be an absolute purist about things, banjo sure doesn't make the cut: It arrived in Ireland only with the American jazz bands around WWI, but took off after the '60s folk revival. Bodhran evolved out of the tambourines that the same jazz bands used. I've heard different stories about bouzouki -- that it was brought to Ireland after military service in Greece by Donal Lunny or Andy Irvine (but isn't Ireland a neutral country?!?), or after WWII -- in any event, it got to Ireland in the late 20th century. Mandolin wasn't a big deal until the '60s folk movement, and as far as I've heard, Michael Coleman was the first to use guitar accompaniment instead of piano (piano player was sick or something, Coleman griped to NYC taxi driver, taxi driver pulled out a guitar and sat in for the gig!). Piano is obviously only as old as the 17th century (right?), and fiddle was brought over from Germany a few centuries before. Wooden flute doesn't go back more than a couple centuries in Irish music. As far as I can tell, the only REAL traditional instruments in Irish music are harp and uilleann pipes.
I'd say that instrumentation in Irish (or any) music culture is like free speech: you can do whatever you want, but a lot of stuff would just be in severely bad taste. I've heard a neat version of "The Butterfly" on reed/wind instruments, tastefully rendered because of the odd time signatures and original arrangement, but I wouldn't necessarily like to hear it done at my local seisiun.
I recently played a seisiun with a phenomenal acoustic bass-guitar player; as a "more traditional" (i.e. less unexpected) guitar player, I was wholly outclassed!
And as for nice cello accompaniment: Trapezoid's version of "The Blacksmith" (song) has an unusual intensity, thanks mostly to a sparse but powerful cello/double-bass-based accompaniment. Lord knows where you'll find a copy of it (I think it was on their 2nd or 3rd album)...
--j
btw, I've found most of that instrumentation history on the web. if you want to fact-check me, surf around and see what you find. if you want me to do it, let me know and we'll see if I can dig that stuff up again!
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Now, why would we want to do that? Well, not me anyway. I'm not into shooting people down in flames (not intentionally anyhow). I'm not sure how you did it, but you did, unwittingly solve the name of 'a pretty Kerry slide' I've been playing un-named for ni on eight years. Thank you.
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I know this thread has died...but I haven't been on in a bit..... All the talk about bass above.... I played electric bass on a recording of Star of the County Down...it was real low in the mix and it sounded really nice. Could hardly make it out. But if you took the track away you could really tell the difference.
With ths same band, I'd often play WASHTUB bass live. That was really fun...like Irish music meets a country jug band. But it fit really well somehow.
Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Some session members(including myself) have previously made adverse comments about this practice which encompass anything from the rattling of shakey eggs to electric/electronic instruments or jazz instruments such as clarinet, trumpet etc.
My earliest experience of this was listening to old 78's by Jim Cameron's Dance Band where the Cornet was always heavily featured. I liked this(and still do) and it made Scottish Country Dance music sound almost interesting- although I didn't mind the better players like Jimmy Shand and Bobby McLeod either.
Nowadays, all varieties of instruments have been featured in traditional music recordings and live performances. I was wondering which of these experiments the members have considered to be the most successful and whether it can ever be appropriate to emulate this combination of different instruments in a session situation. Please discuss.
)
John
# Posted on November 30th 2003 by Johannes J
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Hey, shaky eggs had their adherents, notably that fine and nuanced player, Daniel MacKay... *smirk*
Probably the most successful I've personally had is the simple standing string bass, when played by someone with good taste, which I realize isn't too out there. The mountain dulcimer wasn't too bad, but that may have been because, largely, they're so quiet that it would have been impossible for it to be intrusive. Hammer dulcimers have been mixed results - of course the success of ANY instrument, traditional or not, in a session is always dependent upon the player...
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I have never been to a session but I can tell you what new instruments I think work in ITM. If this is not what you're looking for, then please skip over my reply.
I agree with Zina about the string bass. It can add another whole dimension to the music, if it is played with moderation and not overdone. I also like the sound of the mountain dulcimer in trad. The cornet, however, Is totally out of place, in my opinion. Patrick Street has a guest cornet player on their newest album, Street Life, and it really doesn't seem to fit in. I like the sound, but not in ITM. And then I don't like bongos or djembes either, particularly if they are overdone. (e.g. Gaelic Storm)
Just my humble opinion.
-Max
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Max Becher
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
On the string bass issue, there is a great tune on the most recent Slainte Mhath cd which has, what sounds to me anyway, like an electric bass playing the lead melody line. It sounds fantastic and I can't think why other people haven't used it more often in this way (or maybe they have and I just haven't heard.....)
Hard to play at speed I imagine but something to aspire to.
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by nick b
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Brass instruments just weren't made for trad, were they? Despite the flugel horn (which, with the French horn are the nicest of the brass bunch by far) in that one Lunasa track (Dr Gilbert?).
But I must ask: anyone had any joy sticking a cello into the mix? Perhaps it wouldn't work for a session, but maybe in ensemble setpieces?
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Q
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Nick, try http://www.prodigals.com/Prodigals-Theopenreel.mp3
Fun stuff -- reels on the electric bass.
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
Oh, and on Andrew Harkin:
http://archive.bassplayer.com/z2001/0104/harkin.shtml
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
Q -- loads. Wasn't it Alisdair Frasier who was touring with a cellist? Scottish, not Irish, though.
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I beleive Alasdair Fraser does like to play with cellists. I know he has cello workshops at his summer fiddle camp, Valley of the Moon. I personally don't mind the cello but it isn't really that great sounding.
Nick b -- electric bass playing the melody line seems a bit too much for me.
-Max
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Max Becher
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I think the track nick b is referring to sounds extremely cool. The bass player starts the track off solo before the rest of the band kicks in and it's well done IMO.
I was at a house session last week and a guy brought one of those Mexican marachi acoustic basses and it really added something unique to the mix.
Greg
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by octogreg
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Here's a can of worms I opened earlier:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/126
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by ragaman
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Has anyone used a marimba in a trad band? For information, a marimba is like a xylophone with tremendous attitude, and it's big - you have to walk the length of the instrument to get from the bass to the top of the treble. I don't think you'd ever see one in a session, for one thing in the wrong hands it's capable of easily drowning out everything else, and another is that you need a truck and several strong bodies to cart the thing around.
The only reason I ask is that recently I was playing in an orchestra accompanying a virtuoso percussion student from the Royal Academy of Music in a performance of a very exciting concerto for the instrument (it's pretty good - Evelyn Glennie's recorded it).
Btw, "the cello ... isn't really that great sounding"? Now I really am upset (grump, grump
Trevor
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by lazyhound
Re 'Cello: Niel Gow (the elder or the younger, I forget which) composed and arranged, many tunes - including strathspeys and reels - for fiddle and Cello. In his day (C18th?? I was never good at history), the norm was presumably to play these tunes solo, or perhaps in unison. I see his addition of 'cello parts - perhaps influenced by the basso continuo in baroque orchestral music - on a parallel with the addition of piano, guitar, bouzouki and synthesizer accompaniments in th 20th century.
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by ragaman
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
IRT to marimba...it would certainly be fun to watch the faces as the roadies started muscling the marimba into the pub though, wouldn't it? Like some Candid Camera thing...
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Sorry, Trevor, just an opinion. Maybe I shouldn't even have said that. I have only heard it used in ITM once. It was probably just the way they used the cello that didn't strike me as very nice sounding.
-Max
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Max Becher
BTW -- Greg, I should probably listen to the track with the bass solo on it before I decide that I don't like it. Didn't mean to jump to a conclusion there, it could be very nice sounding. Although, what one person thinks is nice, could sound horrible to another.
-Max
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Max Becher
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I think cello is particularly nice with fiddle. Both Alasdair and Iain Fraser play and have recorded with cellists. Harpsichord is also nice with fiddle for tunes that have a Baroque feel.
As far as sessions with celli are concerned--I've only played in one Scottish session and no Irish sessions with a cellist and many other instruments (harps, flutes, concertinas, etc). It sounded quite nice in that setting also, and was able to provide a low melodic or countermelody line in addition to traditional chordal accompaniment.
I think Mark O'Connor also combines fiddle with cello and bass (Edgar Meyer and Yo-Yo Ma).
Erin
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by esfiddle
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
The son of one of our bodhran players brought his cello to our session a couple of weeks back. He also fiddles, so he's worked out a few tunes on the big beast. They sounded fine, and we all joined in. That's a nice change of voice after weeks of nothing but six whining fiddles....
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Difficult question, what is traditional, which instrument is not acceptable? I have joined a nice session in Dingle where a Didgeridoo (or however it's spelled...) was played. And it sounds very harmonic. And what's about the brass arrangements on McGoldrick's "Fused"? Of course, it's not traditional, but very fine music with traditional roots.
ITM is a living tradition amd I think it's normal that modern or unusual instruments will find a place in ITM.
... sorry, I didn't introduce myself: I'm from Hamburg/Germany and read the discussions here for a while. I play piano accordion, bodhran and have just started with banjo.
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by McFolker
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Weclome out of lurkdom McFolker! Sounds like the Dingle digde'll do. I don't mind tht once in a blue moon, and not on every tune. This music sometimes begs for more of a low end, eh?
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Will CPT
No doubt about that, Will. And the player of this tube had the right feeling to stop before it was annoying...
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by McFolker
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Cello is definitely very cool, with such a lovely richness to the tone. There is a great cd by Abbie Newton with her playing on the cello. It has a really nice version of the new rigged ship / full rigged ship.
I think that one of ITM's strengths is its ability to evolve and adapt instruments - ie what other tradition has absorbed so many alien instruments such as banjos, mandolins, bouzoukis etc etc and yet made them its own.
Otherwise the tradition would probably be a load of bodhrans and flutes round the cave fire - and I know how much you would all enjoy that
) heh heh
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by nick b
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I mentioned this once before, but we had an autoharp player sit in on a session once and he fit in wonderfully. If you've never heard autoharp picked proficiently, you have no idea that that instrument left in your grandparents' attic can actually make music.
Like Zina's moutain dulcimer note above, the fact the autoharp isn't blaring loud like most brass and can blend well with other instruments is probably a key issue.
AND - if the player flat out understands ITM and is proficient in their instrument, they're much more likely to fit into a session. I'm sure we've all spent time with rhythmically challenged bodhran players, newbie whistlers with Susatos, etc...
Eric
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Jayhawk
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
As for the cello: Not too long ago, I heard Alasdair Fraser in concert with Natalie Haas on the cello.
Scottish music is IMO so much more incluenced by classical music and some of their slower pieces sounded just like baroque music - very nice but definitely different from ITM. But I absolutely loved what Natalie did for the faster tunes: she played some percussive riffs that just blow your mind away! Not at all what one usually associates with cello music. And according to Alasdair, the cello has been used in traditional Scottish dance bands previously.
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by heike
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Any instrument can work if it's in the right hands, or whatever body part is required. Trouble is, most players are note chasers so no matter what the instrument, it ain't gonna sound good.
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by LowDRichard
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Max, don't take it to heart! Note the little emoticon after my "grump, grump". Now if I were a viola player ... Btw, violas haven't surfaced on this thread yet. Mr Gill, where are you?
Trevor
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I love the viola in trad! Jesse Smith plays viola on Danu's albums "Think Before you Think" and "All Things Considered" and I'm not sure, but he probably plays it on his solo album too. (Can't remember what its called) It sounds really awesome.
-Max
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Max Becher
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I have played the cello on a couple of occasions in fiddle workshops when I was specifically asked to bring it along. In one of them someone had written a nice flowing bass counter-melody for Sheebeg and Shemore. It worked quite well on the cello.
Normally I'd never take my cello to a session, not least because the instrument needs a lot of playing room, and of all the instruments it seems to be the one that is most easily damaged. Also, I'd need prior preparation working with someone on a few tunes for it to be effective. Just turning up with a cello on the off chance would be a waste of time.
Trevor
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by lazyhound
Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Tommy Peoples plays the viola on one or two tracks of his album The Quiet Glen. Sometimes, after listening to that I feel tempted to take up the viola.
Cellists tend have an affinity for the viola - the tuning is the same but an octave higher, the tonal quality of the viola is closer to that of the cello than the violin, and some cellists find the spacing on the fingerboard easier to cope with than the closer finger spacing of the fiddle (and the cello and viola sections sit next to each other in orchestras). My cello teacher, a well-known pro cellist in his day also played the viola as an orchestral pro, but didn't turn his attention to the fiddle until he was 60. Elgar intended to write a viola concerto but never got round to it, but his famous cello concerto works very well as a viola concerto without any alteration. Elgar was delighted to conduct the first performance of it as a viola concerto.
Trevor
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I think I have a couple of Irish tradidional albums with cello on some tracks. One is a whistle album but the player's name eludes me now. I bought an old time album a few months ago which has a cello on some tracks and it's absolutely great. Here's a marimba playing Irish music. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/henle
Steve
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by SteveKendall
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Whoo... I dunno about that. Marimba's a great instrument - I once wrote a rippin' piece for marimba and violin in the style of Khachaturian - but for trad it just seems out of place, especially on its own.
But wait! Maybe if we throw in some pan pipes...
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Q
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Oh God. Please no - not panpipes. Aaaaaaaaaaargh!!
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Mark Harmer
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
hee hee
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by Q
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
The reason the viola works is because it fills a tonal space in between the strummers and the usual melody players. There is some beautiful tight harmony to be found in this usually empty area
# Posted on December 1st 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I first heard the 'cello used by a Scottish band called Ossian in the late 70s. They were superb and the 'cello really added to the mix. It was used primarily for the harmonies but occasionally took the lead on slow tunes to wonderful effect.
# Posted on December 2nd 2003 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Who played cello in Ossian, Geoff? Billy played stand-up bass, but not often, and I don't recall George or John ever playing cello. If they did, it was a pure novelty. It was never a main feature of their instrumentation. Does it appear on any of their records?
# Posted on December 2nd 2003 by Kenny
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
John Martin is credited on at least three albums for playing cello
i.e Seal song, Dove across the water, and Borders. I don't have the very early albums to hand to check. Billy Jackson is credited for playing cello on the Contraband album(Ossian's predecessor).At that time, he played mainly bass/bass guitar.
I agree, Kenny, that it wasn't used often during their live performances although it features on recordings.
John
# Posted on December 2nd 2003 by Johannes J
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Just for giggles, I would humbly suggest perhaps a nykleharpa. Vasen, with Roger Tallroth, features this interesting instrument in their playing. Their latest album "Trio" has "Josephin's Waltz" (penned by Tallroth) and I found this music quite enjoyable. But what do I know, I enjoy listening to Eileen Ivers as well(could be construed as a very minor windup)!
Deb.
# Posted on December 2nd 2003 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
The nyckelharpa can be heard to great effect on a Swedish Waltz which appears on an album called "Grass Roots" by The Old Sod Band (an Ottawa-based dance band that features member Ian Clark). It reminds me of the timbre of a viol da gamba - very sweet. The rest of the album is an excellent mix of Irish, Scotttish, Quebec and original dance tunes.
Greg
# Posted on December 2nd 2003 by octogreg
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I just found out that Aongus McAuley plays the cello on Danu's "Road Less Traveled" album.
http://www.openear.ie/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=oe1&Product_Code=cd142&Category_Code=New
-Max
# Posted on December 2nd 2003 by Max Becher
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Steel drum player Andy Narrell(?) has recorded some Irish tunes on the ould pan. I remember he had a nice version of Morrison's jig, and some other stuff. Good playing, and well done arrangements, in a new-age-ey kind of way.
I once saw a black guy with dreadlocks in the Toronto subway playing Irish tunes on the bassoon. He did a really good job on the tunes, but the bassoon is much too quiet to work in a session.
I've also seen someone get kicked out of a pub in Dublin for playing the clarinet, but that may have been due to the musical content, and not the instrument. Or maybe they just had a thing about "Fir a Bhata"...
# Posted on December 2nd 2003 by Gzeg
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
The string base is quite often used in Norwegian traditional music.
A nice and rather unorthodox substitute for a string bass player is an accomplished tuba player! I've had the pleasure of playing with good tuba players - and that works quite well. I have'nt seen many at ITM sessions, though. We do have an acoustic bass gitar player who has started showing up at sessions though, and this adds a nice dimension to the guitar strumming.
# Posted on December 2nd 2003 by MrGanAinm
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I was at a "fiddle fest"once where there was mostly Old Time music,but some ITM too,mostly thanks to me and this guy with a clarinet.He was not bad,considering.He also played a little whistle.
I really like cellos.I wouldn't want a cello in everything,but ocasionaly,I really like them.I saw Alasdair Fraser and Natalie Haas too, and she was so amazing.
# Posted on December 2nd 2003 by seisflutes
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
An interesting and exciting cd is "Turning Point" by the fiddle-cello duo Pete Cooper (fiddle) and Richard Bolton (cello), which shows how the two instruments can work and play together. Several of the tracks are arrangements of vigorous English trad tunes, one is American likewise, another is an arrangement of a Macedonian Oro in 13/8 (ok everyone, get your collective teeth into that!), and the remainder are compositions by one or the other of the duo. I'll try to get round to putting this cd into the Recordings section as soon as I can (this side of Christmas anyway - promise!)
Trevor
# Posted on December 2nd 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Michael Robinson and Vicki Parrish over at Standingstones.net have got some great texts about the use of cello in trad, going back to virginel, spinet and viol days.
http://www.standingstones.com/tradcllo.html
# Posted on December 2nd 2003 by Q
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Trevor - ever taken along a fiddle with a C string, and tuned as a viola? Or one strung GDAE an octave below, with those expensive strings?
# Posted on December 2nd 2003 by nastyweegirl
Apologies if that's been covered on a previous occasion ...
# Posted on December 2nd 2003 by nastyweegirl
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
We had on occasions Tuba and Double Bass, though never together in our sesh. Both went just fine, but they were in the right hands.
(right as opposed to wrong, not right as opposed to left)
Dave
# Posted on December 3rd 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
NWG, I have experimented in the past with fitting up a fiddle as a viola (borrowed a viola C and pushed all the other strings up the instrument). It didn't work out very well because the C was so floppy and kept going sharp, as well as being too quiet. The other strings weren't bad, though. After a few days I reverted to normal stringing and returned the C to the lender.
. Her viola (a genuine one, of Belgian origin) is fiddle size in length but a lot deeper in the body and a little wider in the lower bout. It has a rich warm and powerful tone that belies its size. A local fiddle maker says the most important factor for such small violas is the choice of string. I'm not sure, but she may be using obligatos, which she also uses on her fiddle.
A friend of mine who plays in a ceili band also plays classical viola professionally - no, she's not Mr Gill or BigDave
I've never used octave strings, and I would prefer to try them out on a shop fiddle first. If I were sufficiently impressed with them and could see a good reason for them I'd probably set up another fiddle (a 3rd!) with them on.
Out of curiosity I tried out one of those 5-string fiddles (with a low C) in my local violin shop. The tone was rather dull, but to be fair it was brand new and unplayed, and not strung up with top quality strings. More importantly, what would take a lot of getting used to would be the closeness of the strings to each other, an important consideration for me because I've got thickish fingers, and the contour of the bridge which was a lot flatter than what I'm used to. Again, for me the purchase of such an instrument would have to be justifiable, and I would demand a wider fingerboard, which would imply a wider neck, etc.
Trevor
# Posted on December 3rd 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
One instrument that seems to crop up frequently in sessions nowadays is the Jukebox. Since it has no 'player' as such, it has no musical sensitivity whatsoever, completely ignoring the other players - and no amount of telling it to shut up, or telling somebody to shut it up, has any effect.
# Posted on December 3rd 2003 by ragaman
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
But there is usually a mains switch behind it
Trevor
# Posted on December 3rd 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
They had a juke box in Sandy Bells' once which even had a few folk/trad tracks but it didn't last.
)
John
# Posted on December 3rd 2003 by Johannes J
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Just a thought, and it ties into other threads about 'who the session is for'. I was at a session the other night, where there was a young lady playing a saxophone. I've heard her before, and she's really good. She doesn't play anything she doesn't know well, and from the bar, she fits in brilliantly on the tunes she plays. It sounds like one of those 78s of those American Ceili bands (It was a big session - 8 flutes, 10 fiddles, boxes of various descriptions, mandolins, zouks, whistles - you name it, so it can take it).
The trouble is, the people sitting close to the saxophone are deafened and can't hear a note they are playing.
# Posted on December 4th 2003 by Ottery
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I have today posted "Turning Point", the Pete Cooper-Richard Bolton cd, in the Recordings section, as promised.
Trevor
# Posted on December 4th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
just what qualifies as "traditional", anyway? If you want to be an absolute purist about things, banjo sure doesn't make the cut: It arrived in Ireland only with the American jazz bands around WWI, but took off after the '60s folk revival. Bodhran evolved out of the tambourines that the same jazz bands used. I've heard different stories about bouzouki -- that it was brought to Ireland after military service in Greece by Donal Lunny or Andy Irvine (but isn't Ireland a neutral country?!?), or after WWII -- in any event, it got to Ireland in the late 20th century. Mandolin wasn't a big deal until the '60s folk movement, and as far as I've heard, Michael Coleman was the first to use guitar accompaniment instead of piano (piano player was sick or something, Coleman griped to NYC taxi driver, taxi driver pulled out a guitar and sat in for the gig!). Piano is obviously only as old as the 17th century (right?), and fiddle was brought over from Germany a few centuries before. Wooden flute doesn't go back more than a couple centuries in Irish music. As far as I can tell, the only REAL traditional instruments in Irish music are harp and uilleann pipes.
I'd say that instrumentation in Irish (or any) music culture is like free speech: you can do whatever you want, but a lot of stuff would just be in severely bad taste. I've heard a neat version of "The Butterfly" on reed/wind instruments, tastefully rendered because of the odd time signatures and original arrangement, but I wouldn't necessarily like to hear it done at my local seisiun.
I recently played a seisiun with a phenomenal acoustic bass-guitar player; as a "more traditional" (i.e. less unexpected) guitar player, I was wholly outclassed!
And as for nice cello accompaniment: Trapezoid's version of "The Blacksmith" (song) has an unusual intensity, thanks mostly to a sparse but powerful cello/double-bass-based accompaniment. Lord knows where you'll find a copy of it (I think it was on their 2nd or 3rd album)...
--j
# Posted on December 5th 2003 by JHowley
btw, I've found most of that instrumentation history on the web. if you want to fact-check me, surf around and see what you find. if you want me to do it, let me know and we'll see if I can dig that stuff up again!
# Posted on December 5th 2003 by JHowley
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
Now, why would we want to do that? Well, not me anyway. I'm not into shooting people down in flames (not intentionally anyhow). I'm not sure how you did it, but you did, unwittingly solve the name of 'a pretty Kerry slide' I've been playing un-named for ni on eight years. Thank you.
# Posted on December 5th 2003 by Clear Drops
Re: Use of unorthodox and exotic instruments in traditional music.
I know this thread has died...but I haven't been on in a bit..... All the talk about bass above.... I played electric bass on a recording of Star of the County Down...it was real low in the mix and it sounded really nice. Could hardly make it out. But if you took the track away you could really tell the difference.
With ths same band, I'd often play WASHTUB bass live. That was really fun...like Irish music meets a country jug band. But it fit really well somehow.
- Greg
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by Grack