should Guitarists limit themselves to chords in first positions?should guitarists explore the fingerboard to find different chord inversions.
I think it is good idea to do so .
what do other people think?
no, they should not explore. They should already know exactly where those inversions are so they can have a bass line that makes some sort of melodic sense
inversions can vary with the same bass line,lets go to dadgad,youcan have an inversion dadaad or ddd dad,they sound different yet they have the same bass line.
in fact unless players have explored at home,they wont know where those inversioins are,its chicken and egg really.
GFvF, you should explore the entire fingerboard. I generally think in terms of having at least three voicings for each chord, a low (generally first position), mid-range, and high voicing that I can use depending on the contour of the melody line. I tend to think in terms of voicing range rather than specific inversions.
A good position for the six string devil would be in the middle of the fire.(Why is a six string devil better than a uke? The six string devil burns longer.)
Another position for it would be in a wheelie bin...
Thanks for clarifying. I felt the related thread was not limited to only the dance tunes, as far as some were concerned. So excuse me if I am skeptical about this obvious spinoff. Sorry to be lecturing.
End of my rant. I'll leave it to those who play guitar.
This wouldn't be trying to extrapolate from the fiddle question now, would it ?
Because, as every schoolboy knows, the guitar has both frets, so you only need to put your finger behind the right fret to get the right note, and little dots on the fingerboard so you know which fret is which; whereas the fiddle is a blank fingerboard, upon which you may impose any kind of equal temprament, quarter-tone scales, or Mongolian nose-flute harmonics you wish to utilize, ( providing you have the skills required ).
Gurnsey Pete, Where is your faith in human nature? Who would stir the pot on one thread, and when it began to die down, post a similar thread that they hope will help prove the point they kept trying to pound home?
Another post was deleted the other day, "thesession.org" in which the anonymous poster went on a rant. I posted a reply "Hello General" but didn't, get to see it again before it was deleted. Did anyone find out who this really was?
Jwalkert, I believe your guess about the mystery poster was correct, and Jeremy was well within his rights to make that thread disappear. Watch those extra comma's, though, or someone might mistake you for one of our local ranters!
Good point, Jwalkert, there are more than a few ranters around here, aren't there? And I don't know what the connection is, but one thing the worst of them seem to have in common is a lack of ability to punctuate properly.
Classical position has the neck elevated, rather than horizontal, and typically the right foot raised a few inches on a footrest.
It has its advantages for complex fingerwork, but I've never seen much point in trying to apply it on a steel string. I do sometimes pull out the footrest to get the box a bit closer to the ears, in a loud room. Looks funny, but sometimes it's the difference between "can hear a little" and "can't hear nothin' "
It depends on the requirements of the person/s you are accompanying. Some people I've backed up like just the standard open chords, others like "thin" chords shapes, that is chords played using mostly only the highest pitched 4 strings, while some go for barre chords. I was once backing up Clare fiddler Martin Hayes in concert and at the rehearsal just for fun I used a jazz guitar style back up for Kitty's Wedding. Martin loved it so we used it just for that tune, but only for one tune, a bit unusual so to speak, but if I had have accompanied every tune like that then it would have ruined the effect. The most important thing however is to have a thorough knowledge of the tune, even if you can't play the melody you must be familiar with it, otherwise listen but don't play. The worst thing you can do is "fake" it.
Left foot, Jon, unless you’re left handed. It has the same advantages for steel string playing as for classical, but most people never try it and never know. If you have something that works for you, there’s not much motivation to try another approach.
Left foot, of course. My bad.
I tried it, and found it had very little to offer me, except when I was playing complicated fingerstyle arrangements on the triple-O. On the dreadnaught, the bigger body made the positioning more awkward than helpful, but with the smaller-bodied guitar, the stool and elevated neck did put the left hand in a better position to scamper on the neck - not required for typical playing, but handy when you're playing two or three voices and trying to bring each one out as its own line.
Since I don't do a lot of that these days, and never at a session (nobody would hear it), the footstool stays at home.
But it's worth trying, if you haven't. The footstool is an easy investment, and it might unlock something you're trying to do.
It also depends on which thigh ( assuming you're playing righthanded ) you are resting the waist of the instrument; right thigh tends to put the neck horizantel and the fretboard more directly in front of you, left thigh means you have to open the legs for the larger bout of the guitar body and the fretboard is more to your left.
( Are you sure this stuff on positions isn't really about sex ? )
I find playing in the key of A more preferable around the 5th fret,there are a number of e7 inversions hanging around the 5th fret plus a lovely eeddbe ,5th and 3 strings on 7th fret.
i Prefer to playthe guitar in Missionary position,because of the more possibilityes,no ?
when playing the fiddle i always liked the Woman astride position,because there're more ways, to like have my small hands (little 4th finger,do more up the dusty bit .
when playingthe Octave mando im more of a Doggystyle fan becuase,i tend to bemore of a animal when playin it .
I'll try & give a point of reference. An earlier discussion, now deleted began ...
"I was recently asked by a violinist why folk fiddlers stick to first position. I guess one answer is that you don't have to use other positions: tunes tend to be in first-position-friendly keys. But why is that? Is it to do with the instruments that were historically dominant?"
Posted on May 19th 2010
I hope some here realize that guitar in all it's glory was originally a melody instrument! Go explore it. Tunes played fignerstyle on guitar will be in the family of doing a harp solo at a session generally unless one can play to dance speed (yes, quite a few can).
It's a very complex instrument really, and playing tunes on it will also teach much about backing the tunes too. The best backing to my ear is not just rotating two-three chords in each key, but picking up many of the key melody notes and being right there with the tune being played. To do that you need to learn the tunes like any melody player would. It's not a gruesome chore, but a joy if you love the music and guitar happens to be your instrument. Start easy and do it bit by bit.
Why it is so dumbed down to the level almost of autoharp is sad....it is capable of very much more. Not that the right 2-3 chords can't work if they fit and the timing is good... but I find great joy in exploring the whole fingerboard. It's there....why not. Just explore it at home alone until you get it down pretty well. Don't ruin the session with "exploring" or hunting and pecking.
Bogman... one great big problem I see in teaching, is that guitar players for the most part do not want, depserately in fact, do not want to ruin a session. Most are also lovers of the music too, it's just that backing/accompaniment whtever you call it, is sort of an instinctual and more vague thing than learning melody notes. With melody you know what's coming next. With backing... well it can be confusing. So many will rotate a few chords and hope to get most right. If they would learn to play even a few tunes of each type, jig or reel etc. they would understand a lot more.
It's also not just about keys and chord charts either, there are so many subtleties, and a really in depth study is, possibly an ongoing lifelong study, is needed to back well, because no matter what you do, you can always learn more, just like with a fiddle or flute.
I teach an extended class sometimes called "Beyond Keys And Chord Charts" that requires at least 5-6 hours, that gets deep into what many melody players say they like and don't like, along with tips to improve speed, agility and timing, and that is often improved in the first half hour, literally.... because it is actually not that hard, IF someone shows them. There are very few people showing the bulk of backers how to get with the music, so they are left swimming in deep waters they may not fully comprehend. I do think most sincerely want to fit well into the music but lack the info to do it.
What I teach them is not dependent on style either, and applies to fingerstyle, strumming, DADGAD and Dropped D. They need direction, techniques to keep it together etc. and they will improve. A melody player can tell them stop it, but they don't know what or how to stop doing. A guitar player can analyze and pinpoint their trouble spots a lot better, and present practical technical ideas.
More and more I am coming to think that nothing wrecks a session more than bad timing, and guess what....it's not always the guitars and drums that do that! Melody players can be as out of whack as backers. That makes backing really hard too, as in which person will you be backing at what timing! You have to pick someone, or the majority, yet that still leaves the ones you were not following closely saying your timing is bad! Sometimes you can't win as a backer! In that situation, I choose to just stick with the session leaders, it's safer, LOL!
irisnevins, I can't agree entirely. For one, the reason the melody players "know what's coming next" is because they've learned the tunes. It's not the guitar players who learn a good pile of tunes and use they're knowledge the back the ones they don't know that are the wreckers, it's the ones that don't bother to learn the tunes or worse still, only listen to or hear trad tunes at sessions.
I'm sure in bad sessions poor timing from tune players can wreck sessions. That is not the case though in sessions I'm familiar with. There are always enough strong players here to iron out these issues. I could count quite easily the melody players that have bugged us at our session or others I go to but with visiting guitar players or percussionists you have less than a 50% chance of them being anywhere near the level they should be to join in. With percussion I would say 95%, at least, have a detrimental effect on the session but at least with guitarists they've at least made some sort of effort. The good ones are good the bad ones are woeful. There can be few things more weakening than someone strumming along totally unaware they are in the wrong key.
"You have to pick someone, or the majority, yet that still leaves the ones you were not following closely saying your timing is bad! Sometimes you can't win as a backer! In that situation, I choose to just stick with the session leaders, it's safer, LOL!"
I agree with that though. For an accompanist identifying the tune players who know what they're doing is a must for both parties. If there are no tune players of any cope the accompanist should find another session, if they are any cope themselves.
Despite its beginnings as an offshoot of a rather nasty discussion, this thread actually became a bit useful and thoughtful towards the end, there. Just goes to show you, nothing is ever beyond redemption!
is that what you call fink tuning.
no, standard tuning.
the most important thing[imo]is to learn to sing the tunes,then sing them when youare practising guitar [at home of course].
as a singer this is something Inatyrally want to do any way.
even when experimenting with different inversions and diferent positions on the guitar,accompany yourself singing the tune,thatr is what accompaniment is all about
Well.....tune players teaching backers is an interesting idea, but tune players often don't know how to back unless they too have studied how. Many have been known to say they can't figure it out and are more comfy playing tunes.... but what is very valuable is for backers of any kind, is to listen to, and take very seriously what tune say they like or do not like about their backing. If the majority like what you do, you can assume it's OK. Even if you back really well though, there will always be a few who don't like your style, and that's unavoidable. That is true with melody players too, some people like certain fiddlers, yet can't stand the style of others, though say they are competent or even brilliant musicians.
What's really good is if a student can find someone to teach backing that is both a tune player AND a backer. Then the person can also give good technical advice about the instrument and practical technique, as well as advice on what many melody players like or don't like in accompaniment.
Everyone who is going to play should really put the work into it. Guitar bouzouki drum, you don't get to get off easy because you accompany!
yes,Iris.
as a tune player and an accompanist that is exactly what I DO.
singing the tunes is such a good idea when practising accompaniments at home.
firstly[imo] as a melody player you dont truly know a tune until you can sing it, but if you also know the chord sequences,this can help when it comes to double stopping on a melody instrument.
Good for you yz.... you should be a great teacher then! Do you do guitar tunes or melody on something else?
I recall when I was much younger and first going to sessions in the 70s around NYC, though even at that time a pretty decent fingerstyle tune player on guitar, I went to listen, not to play. I recall at my first session though being asked to solo an O'Carolan tune. I did, then stopped to listen for the next few hours and never touched the guitar.
I had no record player (yes I am that old!) or tape deck yet, but had the music in my head. I am a terrible singer so made sure no one was at home and hummed the tunes.
Later a record player came along and I played to LPs. I learned fignerstyle too by listening to Pat Sky (the one and same who is the piper now) and other ragtime/blues players, starting at the grand old age of 11.
It's all about listening, pretty obsessively to the point where you absorb the music. I truly believe, and so do others, scientists etc. that by repition things get encoded in your brain. Can't recall specifics, but some believed it may even enter into your DNA coding and the ability can be passed on to children. Then again if you play they may well play too. My daughter missed the boat on that one, but I have a very musical granddaughter who at five is playing piano and a bit of harp. She's got that joy in her face when she plays, so she's got the music inside her.
Anyway, you can look at all the keys and chord charts you want, and see all the dots on a page too, and tablature, but that doesn't tell you how to fit into the music, how to develop the ability to hear key changes, You have to listen and absorb. If you don't it would be like reading a book all about swimming, and then expect to jump into the deep water and swim. Many backers do just that, they may know way more about music theory than anyone, but they jump into a session and just can't swim with it. it's great to know all that stuff if you want to learn it and it helps, but it doesn't get you far in a session without the ability to listen to what others are doing, and gain the ability to adapt to it. And yes... really, the backer's job is to adapt to it. Not to hot dog it and be out front and center covering up the tunes. Not that you have to play softly necessarily, but you need to fit, and be able to let the tune be heard. You need to accompany in a way that makes the whole set of tunes sound better, not worse or in competition to the melody.
Trying not to go on forever about this......
out of here now!
Guitar in other positions
Guitar in other positions
should Guitarists limit themselves to chords in first positions?should guitarists explore the fingerboard to find different chord inversions.
I think it is good idea to do so .
what do other people think?
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Guitar in other positions
no, they should not explore. They should already know exactly where those inversions are so they can have a bass line that makes some sort of melodic sense
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: Guitar in other positions
inversions can vary with the same bass line,lets go to dadgad,youcan have an inversion dadaad or ddd dad,they sound different yet they have the same bass line.
in fact unless players have explored at home,they wont know where those inversioins are,its chicken and egg really.
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Guitar in other positions
I prefer guitar in the classical position.
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar in other positions
Um, is that different from the traditional position?
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Guitar in other positions
What's this "should" business? Let people do whatever they want. If it sounds OK, then it's OK.
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by gam
Re: Guitar in other positions
What is the premise of this question:
guitar playing in a particular style
or
guitar playing regardless of style or genre?
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Guitar in other positions
GFvF, you should explore the entire fingerboard. I generally think in terms of having at least three voicings for each chord, a low (generally first position), mid-range, and high voicing that I can use depending on the contour of the melody line. I tend to think in terms of voicing range rather than specific inversions.
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by Michael Eskin
Re: Guitar in other positions
The General is being disingenuous
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by RichardB
Re: Guitar in other positions
Oh, FFS, not again.
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by DaveL35
Re: Guitar in other positions
A good position for the six string devil would be in the middle of the fire.(Why is a six string devil better than a uke? The six string devil burns longer.)
Another position for it would be in a wheelie bin...
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Guitar in other positions
That's why they call it stormy monday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHWeK8Vheak
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Guitar in other positions
I think we should limit them to 1st postiion..nobody moves, nobody gets hurt!
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: Guitar in other positions
I am asking a question, and as this forum is about Irish music, guitars in other positions in relation to irish music.
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Guitar in other positions
Thanks for clarifying. I felt the related thread was not limited to only the dance tunes, as far as some were concerned. So excuse me if I am skeptical about this obvious spinoff. Sorry to be lecturing.
End of my rant. I'll leave it to those who play guitar.
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Guitar in other positions
furthermore, ITM includes irish songs.
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Guitar in other positions
I was just waiting for you to bring that up.
Thanks for taking my less than clever bait.
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Guitar in other positions
This wouldn't be trying to extrapolate from the fiddle question now, would it ?
Because, as every schoolboy knows, the guitar has both frets, so you only need to put your finger behind the right fret to get the right note, and little dots on the fingerboard so you know which fret is which; whereas the fiddle is a blank fingerboard, upon which you may impose any kind of equal temprament, quarter-tone scales, or Mongolian nose-flute harmonics you wish to utilize, ( providing you have the skills required ).
# Posted on May 24th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitar in other positions
Gurnsey Pete, Where is your faith in human nature? Who would stir the pot on one thread, and when it began to die down, post a similar thread that they hope will help prove the point they kept trying to pound home?
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Guitar in other positions
Ah ha ..
Defining the answer to that one
is not difficult. Although the "be
civil" rule would, or just might
knowingly, be compromised.
However, I would never
ever do such a thing. Such
a thing would be far too
difficult to get away with.
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by ...
Re: Guitar in other positions
Another post was deleted the other day, "thesession.org" in which the anonymous poster went on a rant. I posted a reply "Hello General" but didn't, get to see it again before it was deleted. Did anyone find out who this really was?
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: Guitar in other positions
Excuse the extra ",".
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: Guitar in other positions
Jwalkert, I believe your guess about the mystery poster was correct, and Jeremy was well within his rights to make that thread disappear. Watch those extra comma's, though, or someone might mistake you for one of our local ranters!
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Guitar in other positions
Who would that be?
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: Guitar in other positions
Good point, Jwalkert, there are more than a few ranters around here, aren't there? And I don't know what the connection is, but one thing the worst of them seem to have in common is a lack of ability to punctuate properly.
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Guitar in other positions
Watch those extra apostrophe's too, Al!
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Guitar in other positions
Oop's!
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Guitar in other positions
"Um, is that [classical]different from the traditional position?"
Not for me. For most players, yes. Though I never understood why.
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar in other positions
Classical position has the neck elevated, rather than horizontal, and typically the right foot raised a few inches on a footrest.
It has its advantages for complex fingerwork, but I've never seen much point in trying to apply it on a steel string. I do sometimes pull out the footrest to get the box a bit closer to the ears, in a loud room. Looks funny, but sometimes it's the difference between "can hear a little" and "can't hear nothin' "
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Guitar in other positions
It depends on the requirements of the person/s you are accompanying. Some people I've backed up like just the standard open chords, others like "thin" chords shapes, that is chords played using mostly only the highest pitched 4 strings, while some go for barre chords. I was once backing up Clare fiddler Martin Hayes in concert and at the rehearsal just for fun I used a jazz guitar style back up for Kitty's Wedding. Martin loved it so we used it just for that tune, but only for one tune, a bit unusual so to speak, but if I had have accompanied every tune like that then it would have ruined the effect. The most important thing however is to have a thorough knowledge of the tune, even if you can't play the melody you must be familiar with it, otherwise listen but don't play. The worst thing you can do is "fake" it.
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: Guitar in other positions
Left foot, Jon, unless you’re left handed. It has the same advantages for steel string playing as for classical, but most people never try it and never know. If you have something that works for you, there’s not much motivation to try another approach.
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar in other positions
Left foot, of course. My bad.
I tried it, and found it had very little to offer me, except when I was playing complicated fingerstyle arrangements on the triple-O. On the dreadnaught, the bigger body made the positioning more awkward than helpful, but with the smaller-bodied guitar, the stool and elevated neck did put the left hand in a better position to scamper on the neck - not required for typical playing, but handy when you're playing two or three voices and trying to bring each one out as its own line.
Since I don't do a lot of that these days, and never at a session (nobody would hear it), the footstool stays at home.
But it's worth trying, if you haven't. The footstool is an easy investment, and it might unlock something you're trying to do.
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Guitar in other positions
It also depends on which thigh ( assuming you're playing righthanded ) you are resting the waist of the instrument; right thigh tends to put the neck horizantel and the fretboard more directly in front of you, left thigh means you have to open the legs for the larger bout of the guitar body and the fretboard is more to your left.
( Are you sure this stuff on positions isn't really about sex ? )
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitar in other positions
Yep, dreadnaughts were definitely not made for the left thigh (this *is* beginning to sound kinky), but I do it anyway when I pick up one.
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar in other positions
my two cents...there's nothing preventing a guitarist from playing the tune melody. Such an understanding of the tunes could really help.
# Posted on May 25th 2010 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Guitar in other positions
"Are you sure this stuff on positions isn't really about sex ?"
I wasn't sure, which is why I kept my answer ambiguous.
# Posted on May 26th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Guitar in other positions
I find playing in the key of A more preferable around the 5th fret,there are a number of e7 inversions hanging around the 5th fret plus a lovely eeddbe ,5th and 3 strings on 7th fret.
# Posted on May 27th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Guitar in other positions
is that you call Fink tuning?
# Posted on May 28th 2010 by airport
Re: Guitar in other positions
i Prefer to playthe guitar in Missionary position,because of the more possibilityes,no ?
when playing the fiddle i always liked the Woman astride position,because there're more ways, to like have my small hands (little 4th finger,do more up the dusty bit .
when playingthe Octave mando im more of a Doggystyle fan becuase,i tend to bemore of a animal when playin it .
# Posted on May 28th 2010 by fiddlerdan
Re: Guitar in other positions
Dan, should you really be announcing to the entire internet what you do with your instruments?
# Posted on May 28th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Guitar in other positions
The whole 400+ comments got cut, eh?
# Posted on May 28th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Guitar in other positions
I think so. Too bad -- there were some good posts amidst all the BS arguments.
# Posted on May 28th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Guitar in other positions
Yes, but at the end of the day the thread was useless. Any good points were completely swamped with one (or possibly two) persons lunacy.
# Posted on May 28th 2010 by bogman
Re: Guitar in other positions
Aye, the lunacy got a bit out of hand.
# Posted on May 28th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Guitar in other positions
I'll try & give a point of reference. An earlier discussion, now deleted began ...
"I was recently asked by a violinist why folk fiddlers stick to first position. I guess one answer is that you don't have to use other positions: tunes tend to be in first-position-friendly keys. But why is that? Is it to do with the instruments that were historically dominant?"
Posted on May 19th 2010
the rest was history, for well over a week.
# Posted on May 28th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Guitar in other positions
The short answer was: tin whistle in the key of D
# Posted on May 28th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitar in other positions
That depends how long your fingers are though.
# Posted on May 28th 2010 by bogman
Re: Guitar in other positions
I hope some here realize that guitar in all it's glory was originally a melody instrument! Go explore it. Tunes played fignerstyle on guitar will be in the family of doing a harp solo at a session generally unless one can play to dance speed (yes, quite a few can).
It's a very complex instrument really, and playing tunes on it will also teach much about backing the tunes too. The best backing to my ear is not just rotating two-three chords in each key, but picking up many of the key melody notes and being right there with the tune being played. To do that you need to learn the tunes like any melody player would. It's not a gruesome chore, but a joy if you love the music and guitar happens to be your instrument. Start easy and do it bit by bit.
Why it is so dumbed down to the level almost of autoharp is sad....it is capable of very much more. Not that the right 2-3 chords can't work if they fit and the timing is good... but I find great joy in exploring the whole fingerboard. It's there....why not. Just explore it at home alone until you get it down pretty well. Don't ruin the session with "exploring" or hunting and pecking.
# Posted on May 30th 2010 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar in other positions
"playing tunes on it will also teach much about backing the tunes too.............. you need to learn the tunes like any melody player would"
If only this was more widely recognized the guitar wouldn't have to sit so precariously next to percussion and a chief session wrecking instrument.
# Posted on May 30th 2010 by bogman
Re: Guitar in other positions
Bogman... one great big problem I see in teaching, is that guitar players for the most part do not want, depserately in fact, do not want to ruin a session. Most are also lovers of the music too, it's just that backing/accompaniment whtever you call it, is sort of an instinctual and more vague thing than learning melody notes. With melody you know what's coming next. With backing... well it can be confusing. So many will rotate a few chords and hope to get most right. If they would learn to play even a few tunes of each type, jig or reel etc. they would understand a lot more.
It's also not just about keys and chord charts either, there are so many subtleties, and a really in depth study is, possibly an ongoing lifelong study, is needed to back well, because no matter what you do, you can always learn more, just like with a fiddle or flute.
I teach an extended class sometimes called "Beyond Keys And Chord Charts" that requires at least 5-6 hours, that gets deep into what many melody players say they like and don't like, along with tips to improve speed, agility and timing, and that is often improved in the first half hour, literally.... because it is actually not that hard, IF someone shows them. There are very few people showing the bulk of backers how to get with the music, so they are left swimming in deep waters they may not fully comprehend. I do think most sincerely want to fit well into the music but lack the info to do it.
What I teach them is not dependent on style either, and applies to fingerstyle, strumming, DADGAD and Dropped D. They need direction, techniques to keep it together etc. and they will improve. A melody player can tell them stop it, but they don't know what or how to stop doing. A guitar player can analyze and pinpoint their trouble spots a lot better, and present practical technical ideas.
More and more I am coming to think that nothing wrecks a session more than bad timing, and guess what....it's not always the guitars and drums that do that! Melody players can be as out of whack as backers. That makes backing really hard too, as in which person will you be backing at what timing! You have to pick someone, or the majority, yet that still leaves the ones you were not following closely saying your timing is bad! Sometimes you can't win as a backer! In that situation, I choose to just stick with the session leaders, it's safer, LOL!
# Posted on May 30th 2010 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar in other positions
Here's a heretical notion - guitarists who want to learn to accompany tunes should probably take lessons from tune players, not guitarists.
# Posted on May 30th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Guitar in other positions
irisnevins, I can't agree entirely. For one, the reason the melody players "know what's coming next" is because they've learned the tunes. It's not the guitar players who learn a good pile of tunes and use they're knowledge the back the ones they don't know that are the wreckers, it's the ones that don't bother to learn the tunes or worse still, only listen to or hear trad tunes at sessions.
I'm sure in bad sessions poor timing from tune players can wreck sessions. That is not the case though in sessions I'm familiar with. There are always enough strong players here to iron out these issues. I could count quite easily the melody players that have bugged us at our session or others I go to but with visiting guitar players or percussionists you have less than a 50% chance of them being anywhere near the level they should be to join in. With percussion I would say 95%, at least, have a detrimental effect on the session but at least with guitarists they've at least made some sort of effort. The good ones are good the bad ones are woeful. There can be few things more weakening than someone strumming along totally unaware they are in the wrong key.
# Posted on May 30th 2010 by bogman
Re: Guitar in other positions
sorry, that should say "use their knowledge to back the ones they don't"
# Posted on May 30th 2010 by bogman
Re: Guitar in other positions
"You have to pick someone, or the majority, yet that still leaves the ones you were not following closely saying your timing is bad! Sometimes you can't win as a backer! In that situation, I choose to just stick with the session leaders, it's safer, LOL!"
I agree with that though. For an accompanist identifying the tune players who know what they're doing is a must for both parties. If there are no tune players of any cope the accompanist should find another session, if they are any cope themselves.
# Posted on May 30th 2010 by bogman
Re: Guitar in other positions
Despite its beginnings as an offshoot of a rather nasty discussion, this thread actually became a bit useful and thoughtful towards the end, there. Just goes to show you, nothing is ever beyond redemption!
# Posted on May 31st 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Guitar in other positions
is that what you call fink tuning.
no, standard tuning.
the most important thing[imo]is to learn to sing the tunes,then sing them when youare practising guitar [at home of course].
as a singer this is something Inatyrally want to do any way.
even when experimenting with different inversions and diferent positions on the guitar,accompany yourself singing the tune,thatr is what accompaniment is all about
# Posted on May 31st 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Guitar in other positions
Well.....tune players teaching backers is an interesting idea, but tune players often don't know how to back unless they too have studied how. Many have been known to say they can't figure it out and are more comfy playing tunes.... but what is very valuable is for backers of any kind, is to listen to, and take very seriously what tune say they like or do not like about their backing. If the majority like what you do, you can assume it's OK. Even if you back really well though, there will always be a few who don't like your style, and that's unavoidable. That is true with melody players too, some people like certain fiddlers, yet can't stand the style of others, though say they are competent or even brilliant musicians.
What's really good is if a student can find someone to teach backing that is both a tune player AND a backer. Then the person can also give good technical advice about the instrument and practical technique, as well as advice on what many melody players like or don't like in accompaniment.
Everyone who is going to play should really put the work into it. Guitar bouzouki drum, you don't get to get off easy because you accompany!
# Posted on June 1st 2010 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar in other positions
yes,Iris.
as a tune player and an accompanist that is exactly what I DO.
singing the tunes is such a good idea when practising accompaniments at home.
firstly[imo] as a melody player you dont truly know a tune until you can sing it, but if you also know the chord sequences,this can help when it comes to double stopping on a melody instrument.
# Posted on June 1st 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Guitar in other positions
Good for you yz.... you should be a great teacher then! Do you do guitar tunes or melody on something else?
I recall when I was much younger and first going to sessions in the 70s around NYC, though even at that time a pretty decent fingerstyle tune player on guitar, I went to listen, not to play. I recall at my first session though being asked to solo an O'Carolan tune. I did, then stopped to listen for the next few hours and never touched the guitar.
I had no record player (yes I am that old!) or tape deck yet, but had the music in my head. I am a terrible singer so made sure no one was at home and hummed the tunes.
Later a record player came along and I played to LPs. I learned fignerstyle too by listening to Pat Sky (the one and same who is the piper now) and other ragtime/blues players, starting at the grand old age of 11.
It's all about listening, pretty obsessively to the point where you absorb the music. I truly believe, and so do others, scientists etc. that by repition things get encoded in your brain. Can't recall specifics, but some believed it may even enter into your DNA coding and the ability can be passed on to children. Then again if you play they may well play too. My daughter missed the boat on that one, but I have a very musical granddaughter who at five is playing piano and a bit of harp. She's got that joy in her face when she plays, so she's got the music inside her.
Anyway, you can look at all the keys and chord charts you want, and see all the dots on a page too, and tablature, but that doesn't tell you how to fit into the music, how to develop the ability to hear key changes, You have to listen and absorb. If you don't it would be like reading a book all about swimming, and then expect to jump into the deep water and swim. Many backers do just that, they may know way more about music theory than anyone, but they jump into a session and just can't swim with it. it's great to know all that stuff if you want to learn it and it helps, but it doesn't get you far in a session without the ability to listen to what others are doing, and gain the ability to adapt to it. And yes... really, the backer's job is to adapt to it. Not to hot dog it and be out front and center covering up the tunes. Not that you have to play softly necessarily, but you need to fit, and be able to let the tune be heard. You need to accompany in a way that makes the whole set of tunes sound better, not worse or in competition to the melody.
Trying not to go on forever about this......
out of here now!
# Posted on June 1st 2010 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar in other positions
generally ,concertina banjo mandolin.
I am finding tunes on the guitar easier in dgdgbd,but i can play some of them slowly in standard or drop d.
# Posted on June 1st 2010 by Dick Miles